Speaker: 00:00:00

It could be many things

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to show what it means to be

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nonresistance, to love and to encourage

and to forgive.

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And for me, it was also a process.

00:00:13,221 --> 00:00:15,473

And this is a part of the gospel.

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I don't think the gospel is

Jesus Christ died for your sin.

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This is a very short

version of the gospel,

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but the gospel is all picture.

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It’s the kingdom of God.

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Well,

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Saher welcome

to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.

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We're filming this in your home

here in the Netherlands.

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But you're not originally from here.

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You're actually from Baghdad, Iraq.

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And it's quite a story of how

you came here, and how you came to Christ

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and want to capture that story

today on the on

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the episode,

so let's just start from the beginning.

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Tell me a little bit

about your upbringing.

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Were you raised in a Christian home?

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What was your experience with Christianity

growing up in in Baghdad?

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First of all,

thank you for having me in this program.

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I am grown up in, Baghdad.

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My parents were grown up

in one of the villages around Mosul.

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So, that these villages

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are mostly Christian villages.

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We call them Christian villages. They are

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Chaldean villages.

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So they speak Chaldeans.

They are Catholic.

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Most of them,

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I think all of them.

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And, my parents moved to Baghdad.

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My father was a bank manager, so

he moved there and he studied in Baghdad.

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and my family were born in Baghdad, so

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I was born in Baghdad.

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I'm raised up in a, Christian home,

a Catholic home.

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So we usually use the word Catholic

or Chaldean.

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It's interchangeable.

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Description

about how you are as a religion or ethnic.

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It is really interchangeable things.

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So sometimes you say I'm Catholic.

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Usually you say I'm Chaldean,

but you mean,

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if it comes to religion,

you are Christian.

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Then everybody know you are Christian.

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But we are.

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Describe also our ethnicity as Chaldean.

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We went to the church.

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I remember in my childhood, we went

regularly every Sunday to this church.

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But at the table at home,

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I didn't have a lot of teaching about,

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my religion as a Catholic.

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So, when I went to the church, there was,

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kind of,

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not very teaching, but like a lecture.

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So, sometimes

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and, and language,

which I didn't understood and habits

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with, I didn't understand, like,

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lighting the candles,

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even lighting the electricity

on and off, crazy things.

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I never understood them.

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There was a lot of going on in the church,

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and maybe in the last part of the, church

going was,

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kind of sermon

to teach and preach way of life.

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So I didn't have a solid, foundation

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about the Catholic Catholicism

until my age of 12.

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I went to, a kind of communion,

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teaching.

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So you can’t go to take a bread,

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until you have that, Catholic teaching.

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And that was an age, I guess.

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Age of 12.

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Yeah.

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Then I was allowed.

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So what was the experience like

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being in a Christian family or at least,

you know,

00:04:01,407 --> 00:04:04,452

nominally

Christian family, in Baghdad in Iraq.

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Because as an American, you know, I,

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my images of Iraq, you know, tend to be,

oh it's everybody it's Muslim.

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It's, it's this place where there

there are no Christians there at all.

00:04:15,463 --> 00:04:18,049

But your experience

was clearly different than that.

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But what was that like?

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What was the environment like for you

as as a Christian living there?

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Yeah, it's indeed it's not very true

because there are two,

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maybe more 3% Christian Catholics in Iraq.

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And we are definitely

we are the minority in Iraq.

00:04:35,108 --> 00:04:35,733

We are not.

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Yeah, we we

we are not very, very much but,

00:04:41,072 --> 00:04:45,827

because of the wars, many, many Christian,

many Catholics moved to Europe

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and to do, you know, to the United States

and to Australia, oh, part of the world.

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So, what my experience was,

00:04:55,378 --> 00:04:58,506

do you mean how I lived my Christianity

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or how I, experience

my Christianity in the Muslim country?

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I would be interested in both, actually.

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Yeah, sure.

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Well, it depends.

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When you live in Baghdad, we,

my experience.

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Most of the neighbors

accepted us as Christians.

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So I have Muslim friends, maybe more

Muslim friends than Christian friends.

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But sometimes at school they,

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offended me to say, yeah, you eat, pigs

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and like this and,

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Yeah, it was a little bit uncomfortable

sometimes.

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And, Yeah, I was always, often accused

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when it comes to to talk about religion

with our Muslim children

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or they are being taught

what the Christian belief like, you know,

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God the Father got married with

Mary, and here is Jesus came.

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So, that was not very comfortable

because I must explain.

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It's not like this,

but I didn't know what it was.

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Look like,

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so that was not very always comfortable.

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Yeah, yeah, but otherwise

I have a good relationship with, people.

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And many Muslim appreciated Christian.

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Christian.

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But not always.

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It depends where you are

and how strong the,

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Muslim world around you,

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if it comes to teaching, as I said,

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I didn't have a solid foundation

in Catholicism.

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we didn't have devotion after,

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supper or like this.

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We had one Bible.

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Sometimes it's been used to swear,

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to tell the truth.

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So it's it's not the kind of thing

where you have a Bible

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and you're reading it regularly

and not very personally.

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It is my Bible.

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It's my my my my my,

you know, my relation with God.

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It's not like this because, as a,

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Catholic church,

the emphasis was we are the church.

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I didn't have this

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experience, but,

people told me, when you have,

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even in Europe, when,

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when you have maybe, 6 or 7 children

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and the pastor comes after months,

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when will come the next one.

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So they want to multiply

the Catholicism and,

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and Christianity in this way.

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So, that was also common thing.

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What, what we experienced.

139

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Yeah, yeah.

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So, I don't have experience with,

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with evangelism, with necessity to be,

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part of God's God's kingdom

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because you are born in the church,

and the church is God's kingdom.

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So you would have been considered born,

145

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born into the I was looking it up before.

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There's a lot of different

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words used for it, like you'd say,

Chaldean Christians, or Catholic.

148

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Eastern Catholic, I think is one phrase

either way, born into that system.

149

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I guess you could say

150

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you would have been baptized

as an infant right into into that church.

151

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So that's just what you are now,

I guess, was that kind of

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that was the mindset for for the people.

153

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Well, this is just who you are, Yeah.

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When people talk to you in Iraq,

you are Muslim or Catholic.

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You are what you are.

156

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You are born in this in this group.

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So there is no oh,

this is what make it sometimes difficult

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when I meet, Muslim friend

to tell them about the gospel,

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then they, they assume that

I am always been Christian.

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But it’s not the case?

161

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I am, I became a Christian.

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I became, I have chosen to be a Christian

to to to follow Christ.

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So this is another concept maybe for.

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Yeah.

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So, in their mind,

you are Christian or Muslim.

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You are Catholic or Protestant,

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And before we turned the cameras on,

we were talking about this a little bit

168

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because I was trying to get my head around

this.

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Would you describe yourself

as essentially a quote unquote cultural

170

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or just an ethnic Christian, as in, well,

I was just kind of born into this,

171

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ethnic Christian, but not it's not real

Christianity in that sense.

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Is that a fair way of of describing.

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That's my personal experience,

because I know people in my own family.

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They are very,

175

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devoted to Catholicism.

176

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They're very convinced, and they're,

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this kind of a religion,

you know, to have a

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they use the same words as Protestants

179

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and Anabaptists to have

a personal relationship with Christ.

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But they have also a certain prayers

to Mary

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or to certain, saints

182

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but they're very devoted.

183

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They are not necessarily

nominal Christians.

184

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But your experience was not that

my experience was not always that.

185

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No, no. Most of the Christian included me.

186

00:10:01,851 --> 00:10:05,354

We went, yeah, you know, you go ahead to,

187

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to go to the bar to drink,

to do many wrong things with the opposite.

188

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What they teach in the church.

189

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and even in my town, I remember,

190

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there was very common things.

191

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We are known as people who curse a lot

192

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to misuse the name of God.

193

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Mary, Jesus. Just as a joke.

194

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Not all of them,

but it's a very common thing.

195

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So, Yeah.

196

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And yet they say we are Christian

and they are proud of it.

197

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So, yeah, that was very,

198

00:10:42,767 --> 00:10:45,728

confusing thing to Yeah.

199

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So again

there's, it is, is sounding to me.

200

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Yeah.

201

00:10:50,149 --> 00:10:54,528

Just not a lot of teaching it doesn't

sound like you read through the scriptures

202

00:10:54,528 --> 00:10:59,617

much at all, that there wasn't much

to this outside of this.

203

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Just the culture I'm born into really.

204

00:11:01,911 --> 00:11:04,080

This is just a tradition.

205

00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:08,376

Maybe, but it's not really real for you

at this point in your in your life.

206

00:11:08,668 --> 00:11:09,794

Yeah.

207

00:11:09,794 --> 00:11:14,090

So before, we flew over here, which is,

by the way, a wonderful experience.

208

00:11:14,465 --> 00:11:17,426

You and you and your family

have been so hospitable to us.

209

00:11:17,426 --> 00:11:20,429

We have myself

and my wife and our production,

210

00:11:21,347 --> 00:11:23,224

person here and so forth.

211

00:11:23,224 --> 00:11:25,267

But before that, I'd called you

and we were

212

00:11:25,267 --> 00:11:26,477

talking through a little bit of this.

213

00:11:26,477 --> 00:11:28,020

Okay, what what do we want to share?

214

00:11:28,020 --> 00:11:29,814

And something you had mentioned.

215

00:11:29,814 --> 00:11:33,943

And I was like, oh, I want to ask you this

when we're on the podcast, you'd said,

216

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you mentioned

217

00:11:35,861 --> 00:11:38,864

how you were resistant to the gospel

at different points in your life.

218

00:11:39,699 --> 00:11:40,825

And why was that?

219

00:11:40,825 --> 00:11:44,078

And where in your journey

was that happening

220

00:11:44,078 --> 00:11:46,205

and what was that resistance.

221

00:11:46,205 --> 00:11:48,499

Like? Like what?

What were you resisting against?

222

00:11:48,499 --> 00:11:50,292

I guess I should, I should say, yeah.

223

00:11:50,292 --> 00:11:51,877

Good question. Yeah.

224

00:11:51,877 --> 00:11:57,133

Maybe it started in my an earlier age

when my experience was, as I told you,

225

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when, when I committed a sin,

226

00:12:01,595 --> 00:12:03,431

one of the family told me

227

00:12:03,431 --> 00:12:06,892

to burn my finger to chastise myself

228

00:12:07,768 --> 00:12:11,480

because I knew about Christ

and his crucifixion for my sins.

229

00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,817

It was kind of background thing

230

00:12:14,859 --> 00:12:17,862

which is added to for your salvation.

231

00:12:17,987 --> 00:12:20,990

But you must also chastise yourself.

232

00:12:21,157 --> 00:12:22,533

So this is one example.

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00:12:22,533 --> 00:12:24,618

What I have experience.

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00:12:24,618 --> 00:12:29,540

And when I look to pastors and

their attitudes, I was very [un] comfortable.

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00:12:29,540 --> 00:12:34,003

I felt like

there was like this very high hierarchy,

236

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experience.

237

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And when I was age of 12,

238

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when I, did the communion study,

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00:12:45,639 --> 00:12:45,973

yeah.

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Let's call it like this.

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Finally, because before you became

242

00:12:50,978 --> 00:12:55,816

a real Catholic

to to eat the bread and, at Sunday,

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00:12:56,108 --> 00:12:59,862

you must confess your sins

to a human being, to a man.

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So I remember

I was confessing my sin to that

245

00:13:03,282 --> 00:13:08,579

man, and I was just, like, shaking

because I was not only, fearful

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00:13:08,579 --> 00:13:11,874

to confess my sin,

which is was terrible for me,

247

00:13:12,416 --> 00:13:14,960

but I was afraid,

248

00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,963

to forget some sin, because of shame.

249

00:13:18,631 --> 00:13:22,259

So if I don't confess,

then maybe God will not forgive me.

250

00:13:23,594 --> 00:13:27,264

So the view of forgiveness of sin

251

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and, to be justified, that word.

252

00:13:31,227 --> 00:13:34,230

I didn't know the existence

of that word by the way.

253

00:13:34,855 --> 00:13:35,731

It was not the case.

254

00:13:35,731 --> 00:13:40,110

It was just,

you must obey the the church tradition

255

00:13:40,110 --> 00:13:43,364

and what they teach and where you

confess and what you confess.

256

00:13:44,490 --> 00:13:46,575

So that was kind of pressure.

257

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What I have,

258

00:13:48,369 --> 00:13:50,830

experienced

259

00:13:50,830 --> 00:13:52,289

one thing more.

260

00:13:52,289 --> 00:13:55,292

There was a,

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00:13:56,043 --> 00:13:59,046

situation of divorce, and I remember.

262

00:13:59,463 --> 00:14:01,966

Excuse me.

263

00:14:01,966 --> 00:14:04,593

Unfortunately, we have experienced this.

264

00:14:04,593 --> 00:14:07,596

Situation of divorce in our, our home.

265

00:14:07,972 --> 00:14:12,101

And it is a very uncommon thing

in Catholic Church to divorce

266

00:14:12,101 --> 00:14:15,855

people is very maybe in modern day

it's very normal.

267

00:14:16,146 --> 00:14:19,149

But in that time it was not normal.

268

00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,946

So in some way they justified this case.

269

00:14:24,196 --> 00:14:28,450

And I don't know all the details,

but I remember the anger of my father

270

00:14:28,450 --> 00:14:31,453

and this, confrontation with the pastors.

271

00:14:31,829 --> 00:14:36,000

So I began to became very an enemy

for the church.

272

00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,628

And I heard him speak, about them. And,

273

00:14:41,130 --> 00:14:44,258

so that time I was questioning everything.

274

00:14:44,258 --> 00:14:46,760

So is that Christianity?

275

00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,930

At the same time,

I believed in existence of God.

276

00:14:49,930 --> 00:14:50,764

I believed in,

277

00:14:51,807 --> 00:14:52,975

and Jesus I.

278

00:14:52,975 --> 00:14:55,144

And one way or another, I love Jesus.

279

00:14:55,144 --> 00:14:57,229

I don't know why.

280

00:14:57,229 --> 00:14:58,480

Yeah.

281

00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:03,152

I don't think I was Christian,

but I loved, I love, loved his teaching

282

00:15:03,152 --> 00:15:07,489

because I was a little bit familiar

because of, videotape.

283

00:15:07,489 --> 00:15:12,161

We have got ones about Jesus story

according the Gospel of Luke.

284

00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:13,454

Okay.

285

00:15:13,454 --> 00:15:16,040

So you had at least

you're somewhere along there.

286

00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,001

You got at least a little familiarity

with.

287

00:15:19,043 --> 00:15:20,419

Yeah. Okay, this is Jesus.

288

00:15:20,419 --> 00:15:21,962

This is some of the things he teaches.

289

00:15:21,962 --> 00:15:25,382

Even though you're not a committed

Christian at this point or a believer

290

00:15:25,549 --> 00:15:29,011

in Jesus, It was very confusing thing

because this is Jesus.

291

00:15:29,595 --> 00:15:31,722

While it was an actor, it was not Jesus.

292

00:15:31,722 --> 00:15:33,307

So I understood that.

293

00:15:33,307 --> 00:15:36,310

But I got the message,

294

00:15:36,644 --> 00:15:42,316

at least the, the the description of the

gospel in his preaching. So,

295

00:15:43,359 --> 00:15:45,861

at the same

time I look to the leaders of the church

296

00:15:45,861 --> 00:15:50,366

and I feel a very uncomfortable,

experience,

297

00:15:51,659 --> 00:15:53,369

the way they speak, the way they look,

298

00:15:53,369 --> 00:15:56,372

the way they walk as well.

299

00:15:56,455 --> 00:16:00,960

So I don't know why,

but I experienced a lot of pressures,

300

00:16:01,001 --> 00:16:04,672

plus the things that we have experienced

as a family.

301

00:16:05,714 --> 00:16:07,466

So it was very, hard time.

302

00:16:07,466 --> 00:16:11,804

And from there,

I think I began to say to myself,

303

00:16:12,012 --> 00:16:15,015

you know, that was the time about,

304

00:16:15,849 --> 00:16:18,686

age of 14, 15.

305

00:16:18,686 --> 00:16:21,647

I just stopped,

306

00:16:21,647 --> 00:16:23,774

to believe.

307

00:16:23,774 --> 00:16:26,318

So I was used sometimes to to fast

308

00:16:26,318 --> 00:16:29,405

and to pray just to go get closer to God.

309

00:16:29,571 --> 00:16:32,533

But at the same time, I went back.

310

00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:38,080

So, that was my inside, confusion.

311

00:16:38,622 --> 00:16:42,167

So I began to resist Christianity

when I was of age

312

00:16:42,167 --> 00:16:46,422

of maybe 16,

17 years old, when I said, okay,

313

00:16:48,132 --> 00:16:49,383

I didn't pay attention.

314

00:16:49,383 --> 00:16:52,928

You know,

I came as a refugee in the Netherlands,

315

00:16:52,928 --> 00:16:55,931

so I have another headache.

316

00:16:57,057 --> 00:16:57,850

I must wait

317

00:16:57,850 --> 00:17:00,853

maybe five years for my for my, status.

318

00:17:01,395 --> 00:17:03,564

So, Yeah,

319

00:17:03,564 --> 00:17:06,567

it was very hard time,

so I stopped believing.

320

00:17:07,109 --> 00:17:08,861

So in that, in that process.

321

00:17:08,861 --> 00:17:10,195

Yeah. You mentioned something. That's.

322

00:17:10,195 --> 00:17:14,450

I think it's a pretty significant part

of the story because we're recording this

323

00:17:14,450 --> 00:17:17,119

not in Baghdad, but we're recording

this here in the Netherlands.

324

00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,122

Like you ultimately

made your way to, to the Netherlands.

325

00:17:20,664 --> 00:17:23,375

And so that's happening

right around the time where you're saying,

326

00:17:23,375 --> 00:17:26,962

I'm starting to doubt,

I don't believe, etc..

327

00:17:27,129 --> 00:17:29,256

Can you tell us

a little bit of that story?

328

00:17:29,256 --> 00:17:31,133

How did how did you even end up here?

329

00:17:31,133 --> 00:17:34,762

And then what happened once, once

you arrived, especially with this process

330

00:17:34,762 --> 00:17:37,431

of where you're saying, you know what, I'm

just I'm resisting the gospel.

331

00:17:37,431 --> 00:17:40,434

I don't yeah, I don't want anything

to do with this anymore.

332

00:17:40,476 --> 00:17:41,852

Yeah, yeah.

333

00:17:41,852 --> 00:17:44,563

I again,

I didn't knew very much about the gospel.

334

00:17:44,563 --> 00:17:45,522

I just,

335

00:17:46,607 --> 00:17:49,443

resist

to be a Christian and to go to the church.

336

00:17:49,443 --> 00:17:52,446

That was my gospel, experience.

337

00:17:53,572 --> 00:17:57,618

So because of the crisis,

I have experience

338

00:17:57,618 --> 00:18:00,954

because I was a refugee,

you know, almost 16 years old.

339

00:18:01,413 --> 00:18:07,086

So I have a lot of, kind of identity

crisis, who am I and where I'm going

340

00:18:07,086 --> 00:18:09,046

and etc..

341

00:18:09,046 --> 00:18:12,049

So, we met some people from,

342

00:18:12,633 --> 00:18:15,636

I think, yeah. Or,

343

00:18:15,803 --> 00:18:18,263

reform, Christian

344

00:18:18,263 --> 00:18:22,851

in the, in the Netherlands

and they invited me

345

00:18:22,851 --> 00:18:26,772

once to them and later

346

00:18:27,773 --> 00:18:30,692

started a Arabic speaking conference

347

00:18:30,692 --> 00:18:33,695

that was in 2001.

348

00:18:34,071 --> 00:18:38,033

So, yeah, I don't I'm

349

00:18:38,033 --> 00:18:41,203

not sure whether I went immediately, but,

350

00:18:43,705 --> 00:18:48,085

I finally went to that conference

to a three day conference.

351

00:18:48,544 --> 00:18:49,670

This is in the Netherlands.

352

00:18:49,670 --> 00:18:53,132

Like after you've moved here,

like you moved to the Netherlands.

353

00:18:53,132 --> 00:18:53,882

What year was that?

354

00:18:55,884 --> 00:18:56,969

1997.

355

00:18:56,969 --> 00:18:57,344

Okay.

356

00:18:57,344 --> 00:19:00,389

So you lived here for four years

before this conference then?

357

00:19:00,389 --> 00:19:02,891

At that point.

Okay. That's helpful. Yeah, yeah.

358

00:19:02,891 --> 00:19:03,350

Okay.

359

00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:07,688

So in those years, you're

not doing anything with Christianity.

360

00:19:07,688 --> 00:19:12,359

This conference comes up and you just

you did decide to go then.

361

00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,362

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I decided to go,

362

00:19:15,863 --> 00:19:18,866

with, my family.

363

00:19:18,949 --> 00:19:21,493

So it was a three day conference to us.

364

00:19:21,493 --> 00:19:24,496

I my experience was very, very warm.

365

00:19:25,205 --> 00:19:29,418

So, I saw people

praying and hugging each other

366

00:19:29,418 --> 00:19:33,964

and shedding tears and, well, that's

that's really different.

367

00:19:33,964 --> 00:19:36,925

What I have used to see.

368

00:19:37,176 --> 00:19:41,430

And, for the first time,

I heard you must be born again.

369

00:19:42,222 --> 00:19:44,725

So they told me the,

370

00:19:44,725 --> 00:19:47,728

the Romans Road, you know,

371

00:19:48,312 --> 00:19:49,855

we all sinners,

372

00:19:49,855 --> 00:19:54,818

because of our sin,

Jesus came to the earth, to he paid all.

373

00:19:54,818 --> 00:19:57,613

And, if you believe in him,

you have you have.

374

00:19:57,613 --> 00:19:59,781

You will have a new life.

375

00:19:59,781 --> 00:20:01,408

So that touched me very deeply.

376

00:20:01,408 --> 00:20:03,035

And I, I was very,

377

00:20:04,036 --> 00:20:07,414

I started to

be convinced because this is what it is.

378

00:20:07,414 --> 00:20:08,790

I am a sinner.

379

00:20:08,790 --> 00:20:12,211

And I know up

and about the existence of Jesus,

380

00:20:12,211 --> 00:20:16,715

and I heard and teachings

of the kingdom of, of the gospel.

381

00:20:17,966 --> 00:20:19,760

So I thought,

382

00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:24,348

it was also an emotional experience

because, you know, conference and,

383

00:20:25,265 --> 00:20:29,228

you see many people crying and praying

and hugging and encouraging

384

00:20:29,228 --> 00:20:32,231

and so I thought, yeah,

this is heaven on earth.

385

00:20:34,107 --> 00:20:35,234

I like that.

386

00:20:35,234 --> 00:20:38,237

Yeah.

387

00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:39,780

But in that time,

388

00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:42,783

yeah, I was really in the world.

389

00:20:43,575 --> 00:20:46,578

I started to discover two,

390

00:20:48,455 --> 00:20:49,248

Yeah. Before.

391

00:20:49,248 --> 00:20:52,251

Before the hearing the gospel, I went,

392

00:20:54,336 --> 00:20:56,296

I went outside with friends,

393

00:20:56,296 --> 00:20:58,882

using alcohol and drugs

394

00:20:58,882 --> 00:21:01,093

and, cigarets and like this.

395

00:21:01,093 --> 00:21:02,803

So I have two.

396

00:21:02,803 --> 00:21:05,722

I had two directions that time.

397

00:21:05,722 --> 00:21:06,640

So that was,

398

00:21:07,975 --> 00:21:10,978

struggling also to receive the gospel.

399

00:21:11,895 --> 00:21:16,566

And maybe, because of the old background,

all the pain and all the

400

00:21:16,566 --> 00:21:20,779

the confusion I have experienced,

I thought, yeah, okay.

401

00:21:20,821 --> 00:21:21,530

Could be truth.

402

00:21:21,530 --> 00:21:24,157

And for this truth, I feel it.

403

00:21:24,157 --> 00:21:27,869

But out of the conference,

it was just cooled down.

404

00:21:28,912 --> 00:21:30,539

Why I don't know.

405

00:21:30,539 --> 00:21:33,208

I remember one prayer I prayed to God.

406

00:21:33,208 --> 00:21:35,043

I said,

407

00:21:35,043 --> 00:21:36,878

I'm not sure about it.

408

00:21:36,878 --> 00:21:39,214

I love it, but,

409

00:21:39,214 --> 00:21:40,924

I can’t give myself.

410

00:21:40,924 --> 00:21:44,177

And they used this term,

you must give yourself to Jesus.

411

00:21:44,177 --> 00:21:46,263

And he comes to your heart.

412

00:21:46,263 --> 00:21:48,932

So I was very,

413

00:21:48,932 --> 00:21:51,935

scared to do this big step for me.

414

00:21:52,477 --> 00:21:56,523

And, not hundred percent sure where to.

415

00:21:56,773 --> 00:22:00,152

And so I ask God through prayer,

416

00:22:00,569 --> 00:22:03,697

I want to go to the world,

but don't let me go too far.

417

00:22:06,199 --> 00:22:06,616

Yeah.

418

00:22:06,616 --> 00:22:08,368

Okay. Yeah.

419

00:22:08,368 --> 00:22:11,371

So, Yeah, that kind of,

420

00:22:11,663 --> 00:22:14,207

gospel preaching I have heard.

421

00:22:14,207 --> 00:22:17,044

And at the same time, I want to see

422

00:22:17,044 --> 00:22:20,047

I wanted to see a fellowship at church,

423

00:22:21,298 --> 00:22:22,841

not only the conference, but

424

00:22:22,841 --> 00:22:25,844

real discipleship and fellowship.

425

00:22:26,053 --> 00:22:29,181

So I didn't have that think people who,

426

00:22:30,766 --> 00:22:33,769

who received me

to teach me more about that.

427

00:22:34,644 --> 00:22:36,855

so that was a point

428

00:22:36,855 --> 00:22:41,234

where it wasn't necessarily

you converted to Jesus then

429

00:22:41,234 --> 00:22:44,863

and there, was that

maybe the beginnings of a journey though.

430

00:22:45,322 --> 00:22:48,408

Yeah. Yeah. Is that it? So that's in 2001.

431

00:22:48,575 --> 00:22:49,284

Yeah.

432

00:22:49,284 --> 00:22:52,329

You don't

you don't come to, to Jesus at that point.

433

00:22:52,371 --> 00:22:55,374

No. What happens after that?

434

00:22:55,665 --> 00:22:59,044

The message has follow me a lot every day

almost.

435

00:22:59,086 --> 00:23:02,089

So, as I told you,

436

00:23:02,839 --> 00:23:05,258

I had a lot of crisis in my, that age.

437

00:23:05,258 --> 00:23:05,926

It was very,

438

00:23:08,095 --> 00:23:09,346

difficult time.

439

00:23:09,346 --> 00:23:15,143

So, you must do many choices,

you know, about your future.

440

00:23:15,143 --> 00:23:18,146

What do you want to be

and who you are, etc..

441

00:23:18,730 --> 00:23:23,568

So my eyes was open to the world

to just to enjoy the world.

442

00:23:23,568 --> 00:23:25,904

And I discovered,

443

00:23:25,904 --> 00:23:28,198

friends and drugs and,

444

00:23:28,198 --> 00:23:32,119

going out on Saturday night

and, that stuff.

445

00:23:32,536 --> 00:23:35,705

So it was very, very difficult to,

446

00:23:38,708 --> 00:23:41,169

to make a choice, like,

I want to follow Christ

447

00:23:41,169 --> 00:23:44,881

because I was also denying

Christ in many ways, in many ways.

448

00:23:46,383 --> 00:23:49,219

there was some, I think, kind of sadness

449

00:23:49,219 --> 00:23:52,222

inside me, too.

450

00:23:53,223 --> 00:23:55,684

Resist the love of Christ.

451

00:23:55,684 --> 00:24:00,605

So I think I have

I had problem with that a lot to be loved

452

00:24:01,565 --> 00:24:03,692

and Yeah.

453

00:24:03,692 --> 00:24:06,695

To have a another lifestyle. So,

454

00:24:07,988 --> 00:24:10,991

I have chosen to to,

455

00:24:11,950 --> 00:24:14,828

to live my life, to forget many things.

456

00:24:14,828 --> 00:24:17,831

So I was addicted to alcohol.

457

00:24:18,290 --> 00:24:19,374

I drank every day,

458

00:24:20,876 --> 00:24:23,211

and I gambled a lot of money.

459

00:24:23,211 --> 00:24:26,506

And on Saturday and Friday and Saturday

I went out with my friends.

460

00:24:26,506 --> 00:24:30,135

So just to be another person,

to forget many things.

461

00:24:31,261 --> 00:24:35,474

And I was also thinking

about my career to be,

462

00:24:35,682 --> 00:24:38,685

I don't know, rich or famous

463

00:24:38,852 --> 00:24:41,605

or something like that inside me.

464

00:24:41,605 --> 00:24:45,442

I didn't want that as well,

but I, I thought this is maybe

465

00:24:45,817 --> 00:24:48,487

the way to live.

466

00:24:48,487 --> 00:24:51,156

So that was a conflict inside

467

00:24:51,156 --> 00:24:54,409

me to, to end up in something.

468

00:24:54,993 --> 00:25:00,165

And what's funny thing is,

I knew if I would reach to be

469

00:25:00,165 --> 00:25:05,962

a very famous or rich or whatever,

whatever, then I will turn to Christ.

470

00:25:06,004 --> 00:25:07,797

That was my thought.

471

00:25:07,797 --> 00:25:08,131

What?

472

00:25:08,131 --> 00:25:11,635

I can't explain it, but, Is it

473

00:25:11,635 --> 00:25:14,888

an idea of once my life is is good.

474

00:25:14,971 --> 00:25:15,680

Yeah. Then.

475

00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,099

Then I'll turn to Christ

or something like that.

476

00:25:18,099 --> 00:25:18,725

Something like that.

477

00:25:18,725 --> 00:25:22,646

Yeah, well, I knew if my life is good,

then you don't need Christ.

478

00:25:23,146 --> 00:25:24,898

So it was very ...

479

00:25:24,898 --> 00:25:31,613

of mine understanding and, Yeah,

but it was maybe a way to,

480

00:25:32,656 --> 00:25:34,449

to flee.

481

00:25:34,449 --> 00:25:38,453

I think that is a better word

to use to flee from the reality.

482

00:25:39,329 --> 00:25:41,498

So last year,

483

00:25:41,498 --> 00:25:45,835

I think in 2008, I remember 2007.

484

00:25:45,835 --> 00:25:47,754

So I, I had really crisis.

485

00:25:47,754 --> 00:25:50,298

I, I became kind of sick.

486

00:25:50,298 --> 00:25:52,676

So I said to my work, I,

487

00:25:52,676 --> 00:25:56,012

I want just to rest some, some,

some few weeks.

488

00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,683

And that was the beginning

of my depression.

489

00:25:59,975 --> 00:26:00,976

So I,

490

00:26:00,976 --> 00:26:02,143

So I,

491

00:26:02,143 --> 00:26:05,146

I'm sorry I missed one part before that

492

00:26:05,313 --> 00:26:08,316

because I have a problem with addiction.

493

00:26:09,025 --> 00:26:13,238

I wanted to be free from alcohol,

from gambling in particular.

494

00:26:13,947 --> 00:26:17,033

So I went, to,

495

00:26:18,201 --> 00:26:19,786

rehab.

496

00:26:19,786 --> 00:26:22,789

This is for my own,

497

00:26:22,956 --> 00:26:25,542

My own initiative. So.

498

00:26:25,542 --> 00:26:29,296

So I went there for, I think 6 or 8 weeks.

499

00:26:29,838 --> 00:26:32,299

It was a very, very, very difficult time.

500

00:26:32,299 --> 00:26:36,886

I put, my whole body was shaking

because lack of alcohol.

501

00:26:36,886 --> 00:26:39,264

And I wanted to stop smoking also.

502

00:26:40,515 --> 00:26:43,685

And it was very, very hard time.

503

00:26:44,352 --> 00:26:49,441

So that plus that I became began

to be the,

504

00:26:51,276 --> 00:26:53,653

signs of depression.

505

00:26:53,653 --> 00:26:56,990

so I went to, to,

to the, to the doctor in that rehab

506

00:26:57,198 --> 00:27:00,201

and tell them about the situation,

about my experiences.

507

00:27:00,535 --> 00:27:03,580

So I have got some antidepressant

that I'm also.

508

00:27:04,247 --> 00:27:08,043

So finally, when I was free

509

00:27:08,043 --> 00:27:11,046

from alcohol after 6 or 8 weeks,

510

00:27:11,421 --> 00:27:14,424

I thought, okay,

I want to go to the supermarket again

511

00:27:14,674 --> 00:27:17,886

to go to buy one bottles of alcohol.

512

00:27:17,886 --> 00:27:19,387

So I did that again.

513

00:27:19,387 --> 00:27:22,682

I thought, it don't work,

it just don't work.

514

00:27:22,682 --> 00:27:27,896

So, you know, you know what

I, I'm going to to drink and to smoke

515

00:27:28,188 --> 00:27:31,191

and I will see where it will end up.

516

00:27:33,193 --> 00:27:34,986

I remember

517

00:27:34,986 --> 00:27:38,823

I asked my, my father, I need some, some,

518

00:27:38,990 --> 00:27:42,035

some dollars because I must pay my,

519

00:27:43,161 --> 00:27:45,914

Yeah, I had some stuff to pay,

520

00:27:45,914 --> 00:27:49,084

so I was actually lying because I need

I needed money to gamble.

521

00:27:52,170 --> 00:27:55,173

So I planned to my, my,

522

00:27:55,590 --> 00:27:58,176

my flight to my father.

523

00:27:58,176 --> 00:28:01,179

And at that time,

524

00:28:01,304 --> 00:28:03,765

there was, again, a conference.

525

00:28:03,765 --> 00:28:06,768

So I went with a friend of my

526

00:28:06,768 --> 00:28:12,607

to the conference, and

I hear the same things as nine years ago.

527

00:28:13,817 --> 00:28:16,778

And I was deeply touched again.

528

00:28:16,778 --> 00:28:19,322

So I began to be very angry.

529

00:28:19,322 --> 00:28:23,660

So I began to cry into I didn't understand

anything, what I should I do,

530

00:28:24,994 --> 00:28:27,706

and I it was lack of alcohol, so

531

00:28:27,706 --> 00:28:30,417

I was not allowed to drink.

532

00:28:30,417 --> 00:28:33,420

So I went back,

533

00:28:34,003 --> 00:28:37,006

I stopped the conference was,

I think, five days.

534

00:28:37,632 --> 00:28:40,009

So I stopped there.

535

00:28:40,009 --> 00:28:42,887

After two days, I went back to my home.

536

00:28:42,887 --> 00:28:44,264

I started to drink again.

537

00:28:44,264 --> 00:28:46,433

So. And I called my father.

538

00:28:48,226 --> 00:28:49,185

I'm coming this

539

00:28:49,185 --> 00:28:52,230

week because I need some, some, some money

to pay.

540

00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:54,107

To pay back.

541

00:28:54,107 --> 00:28:57,277

It was, of course lie, so at that time,

542

00:28:59,195 --> 00:29:00,697

something happened,

543

00:29:00,697 --> 00:29:04,534

I remember I took a shower,

I took a cup, coffee

544

00:29:05,326 --> 00:29:08,413

and I said, like this. And,

545

00:29:09,664 --> 00:29:12,876

as if the Lord was speaking to my heart

that time.

546

00:29:13,168 --> 00:29:16,004

Do you want my way or that way?

547

00:29:16,004 --> 00:29:17,005

I remember these words.

548

00:29:17,005 --> 00:29:20,925

It's not a physical voice

or that like this, but it was just

549

00:29:21,593 --> 00:29:24,262

a very clear voice inside me.

550

00:29:24,262 --> 00:29:26,556

Maybe because I needed that.

551

00:29:26,556 --> 00:29:27,557

So I prayed.

552

00:29:27,557 --> 00:29:30,852

Maybe two sentences and please,

Lord, help me, I want to stop.

553

00:29:31,603 --> 00:29:34,355

And I suddenly knew that moment.

554

00:29:34,355 --> 00:29:37,525

I don't need to gamble anymore. And,

555

00:29:38,526 --> 00:29:43,364

yeah, I was from that time

I knew I have a new life from now.

556

00:29:43,364 --> 00:29:46,367

From now on. Yeah. So,

557

00:29:47,535 --> 00:29:48,953

yeah, I, I

558

00:29:48,953 --> 00:29:52,707

can describe that this, experience

or feeling,

559

00:29:53,416 --> 00:29:58,296

it's not necessary for everybody,

but I knew there's something new.

560

00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,883

I accepted Christ and some somehow.

561

00:30:02,091 --> 00:30:04,677

So, Yeah.

562

00:30:04,677 --> 00:30:06,221

So I stopped there.

563

00:30:06,221 --> 00:30:09,474

My mind this this, terrible habit.

564

00:30:10,517 --> 00:30:11,309

Yeah.

565

00:30:11,309 --> 00:30:14,687

So that was the starting point

and turning point.

566

00:30:15,897 --> 00:30:19,275

And you're saying there was nine years

between that first conference

567

00:30:19,275 --> 00:30:22,278

where you hear the gospel

and you're attracted to it, but

568

00:30:22,278 --> 00:30:25,281

you decide not, you know,

you're not going to accept

569

00:30:25,406 --> 00:30:28,409

that there's nine years

till you get to this point or roughly

570

00:30:28,409 --> 00:30:31,788

nine years, it sounds like you're

at a point of desperation.

571

00:30:31,788 --> 00:30:35,792

You're kind of out of options or you just

this isn't working, you know, or like,

572

00:30:35,792 --> 00:30:39,504

I, I this is not the life that I,

I should be living.

573

00:30:39,587 --> 00:30:40,380

Yeah.

574

00:30:40,380 --> 00:30:42,298

That's that's quite a process.

575

00:30:42,298 --> 00:30:44,843

Is that was it kind of like nine years of

576

00:30:45,844 --> 00:30:47,762

running away from

577

00:30:47,762 --> 00:30:52,141

the truth that you had heard, or did it

not even feel like that?

578

00:30:52,141 --> 00:30:55,144

Was it just you were just living life?

579

00:30:55,770 --> 00:30:57,021

Yes, it was both.

580

00:30:57,021 --> 00:30:58,064

I was yes.

581

00:30:58,064 --> 00:31:00,525

Fleeing from the reality at the same time.

582

00:31:00,525 --> 00:31:06,239

There was moments I, I could enjoy

the things that I did, but very limited.

583

00:31:06,823 --> 00:31:09,576

Yeah. So for nine years ya.

584

00:31:09,576 --> 00:31:10,994

Wow. Yeah.

585

00:31:10,994 --> 00:31:13,913

And, and so at that point

586

00:31:13,913 --> 00:31:15,415

what changes then.

587

00:31:15,415 --> 00:31:18,084

You know, you, you've reached a point

588

00:31:18,084 --> 00:31:21,671

where a decision inflection

I guess in your life.

589

00:31:21,838 --> 00:31:23,089

Yeah.

590

00:31:23,089 --> 00:31:26,301

I think the conviction was very strong

in these 9 years.

591

00:31:26,301 --> 00:31:29,888

I knew something which is very.

592

00:31:31,890 --> 00:31:34,893

When I went to casino

593

00:31:34,976 --> 00:31:36,895

to gamble,

594

00:31:36,895 --> 00:31:39,397

I was praying, please, Lord,

don't be with me,

595

00:31:39,397 --> 00:31:43,484

because it was kind of,

if you are with me, then I will lose. But.

596

00:31:45,486 --> 00:31:46,321

Oh, wow.

597

00:31:46,321 --> 00:31:49,824

Yeah, yeah, it was very terrible.

So I was.

598

00:31:49,824 --> 00:31:52,827

And so you definitely had an awareness

I have prayer

599

00:31:53,286 --> 00:31:56,122

almost daily prayers to the Lord.

600

00:31:56,122 --> 00:31:58,791

Without to be born again or.

601

00:31:58,791 --> 00:32:02,128

But I knew there was so strong conviction.

602

00:32:03,796 --> 00:32:06,799

I knew that there is kind of new life.

603

00:32:08,551 --> 00:32:11,638

So I love to be a part

of the kingdom, but.

604

00:32:12,096 --> 00:32:16,976

And when in one way or other,

I didn't, I didn't make it in this,

605

00:32:17,602 --> 00:32:20,355

unfortunately, in this nine years.

606

00:32:20,355 --> 00:32:23,733

So, maybe it was a lot of disappointment

607

00:32:23,733 --> 00:32:26,736

and lack of communities and,

608

00:32:27,779 --> 00:32:30,281

the true discipleships and.

609

00:32:30,281 --> 00:32:32,700

Yeah,

610

00:32:32,700 --> 00:32:35,578

maybe, maybe it could be different.

611

00:32:35,578 --> 00:32:36,621

Yeah.

612

00:32:36,621 --> 00:32:38,915

So once you make that decision

613

00:32:38,915 --> 00:32:42,418

that there's going to be a change

now you know you're,

614

00:32:42,418 --> 00:32:47,256

you're going to stop running

and actually accept the gift.

615

00:32:47,423 --> 00:32:48,383

You know, you know that

616

00:32:48,383 --> 00:32:52,679

Christ has given us and and choose that

this is where you want to live now.

617

00:32:52,679 --> 00:32:55,181

Yeah.

Like what starts changing in your life.

618

00:32:56,182 --> 00:32:57,266

Well first of all I

619

00:32:57,266 --> 00:33:00,269

was free from gambling and

620

00:33:00,478 --> 00:33:02,105

another addiction as well.

621

00:33:02,105 --> 00:33:04,816

So I prayed to, to be free

622

00:33:04,816 --> 00:33:07,819

from alcohol because I was,

623

00:33:07,860 --> 00:33:10,863

when I was in Iraq, I was drinking already

624

00:33:10,863 --> 00:33:14,409

a strong kind of alcohol, so I was very.

625

00:33:14,409 --> 00:33:16,995

It was with my body.

626

00:33:16,995 --> 00:33:19,622

Yeah.

So I couldn't get rid of, of alcohol.

627

00:33:19,622 --> 00:33:20,623

So I prayed for that.

628

00:33:20,623 --> 00:33:25,294

And so I many things changed outwardly,

you know, like gambling, smoking,

629

00:33:26,462 --> 00:33:29,007

alcohol. That was more gradually.

630

00:33:29,007 --> 00:33:32,010

One year later I knew,

631

00:33:33,469 --> 00:33:35,221

the most part was inside me.

632

00:33:35,221 --> 00:33:37,598

I was very hungry for the word.

633

00:33:37,598 --> 00:33:39,809

And, to be.

634

00:33:39,809 --> 00:33:41,269

Yeah. Following Jesus.

635

00:33:41,269 --> 00:33:45,398

And I would like to obey him

and everything. So,

636

00:33:46,524 --> 00:33:49,485

Yeah, my journey started right there to,

637

00:33:49,527 --> 00:33:52,238

to seek fellowship in the church.

638

00:33:52,238 --> 00:33:54,741

Yeah. And this is probably,

639

00:33:55,825 --> 00:33:58,036

from one

of, if I'm hearing the story right.

640

00:33:58,036 --> 00:34:01,789

This is where you start getting into

the scriptures for the first time

641

00:34:02,290 --> 00:34:06,085

in a, in a serious way, right

where you were studying and learning.

642

00:34:06,085 --> 00:34:08,755

Yeah. Is that,

is that an accurate way of, of saying it.

643

00:34:08,755 --> 00:34:11,549

Yeah. I started to read the new

The New Testament.

644

00:34:11,549 --> 00:34:13,968

Yeah. To listen and read as well.

645

00:34:13,968 --> 00:34:17,889

Not very deep studying, but just listening

again and again, you know.

646

00:34:18,056 --> 00:34:18,806

Yeah.

647

00:34:18,806 --> 00:34:21,768

And then finding a church and,

648

00:34:21,976 --> 00:34:25,938

and now, I mean,

your life is so radically different

649

00:34:26,022 --> 00:34:29,025

than what

it would have been those years ago.

650

00:34:29,067 --> 00:34:30,109

Yeah.

651

00:34:30,109 --> 00:34:32,987

It's almost hard to people

look at that and they.

652

00:34:32,987 --> 00:34:35,990

It's hard to believe sometimes, like,

how can someone change that much?

653

00:34:36,115 --> 00:34:38,242

You know, I think

654

00:34:39,410 --> 00:34:41,954

there's a thread here that

I'm trying to trying to piece together,

655

00:34:41,954 --> 00:34:46,042

but the that

these journeys take some time sometimes.

656

00:34:46,042 --> 00:34:48,920

Like, it sounds to me this wasn't just.

657

00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,339

You woke up one day

and I'm going to be a Christian.

658

00:34:51,339 --> 00:34:52,048

You know, it

659

00:34:52,048 --> 00:34:56,135

feels like you were back to that question

I had asked earlier about resisting.

660

00:34:56,511 --> 00:34:58,262

Felt like,

661

00:34:58,262 --> 00:34:59,388

wrestling. Yeah.

662

00:34:59,388 --> 00:35:00,098

Wrestling that.

663

00:35:00,098 --> 00:35:03,101

Yeah, that's that's a good word for it.

664

00:35:03,434 --> 00:35:05,228

Why do you why do you think that was?

665

00:35:05,228 --> 00:35:08,689

That the wrestling was what was making

you hold back?

666

00:35:09,732 --> 00:35:10,983

Good question.

667

00:35:10,983 --> 00:35:13,820

Yeah.

668

00:35:13,820 --> 00:35:15,655

I think.

669

00:35:15,655 --> 00:35:18,658

Fear and anger.

670

00:35:19,117 --> 00:35:21,452

These two words come to my mind.

671

00:35:21,452 --> 00:35:22,954

I think.

672

00:35:22,954 --> 00:35:23,329

Yeah.

673

00:35:23,329 --> 00:35:26,457

There was a lot of fear

and anger toward God.

674

00:35:28,918 --> 00:35:30,878

Yeah, I

675

00:35:30,878 --> 00:35:33,631

that was a regular experience.

676

00:35:33,631 --> 00:35:35,758

The blame God for many things.

677

00:35:35,758 --> 00:35:38,010

And my experiences at,

678

00:35:39,387 --> 00:35:42,390

many thing

which what happened in the past.

679

00:35:42,598 --> 00:35:45,309

So that makes me very,

680

00:35:45,309 --> 00:35:45,601

Yeah.

681

00:35:45,601 --> 00:35:48,646

Resisting the love and the resisting the

682

00:35:49,438 --> 00:35:52,441

the message in itself.

683

00:35:52,567 --> 00:35:55,528

So for anyone listening to this,

684

00:35:56,154 --> 00:36:00,116

that's perhaps on the journey

somewhat like yours, where

685

00:36:00,741 --> 00:36:03,786

they're going through this process

or they know someone in their life,

686

00:36:03,995 --> 00:36:06,038

I can immediately

think of several friends,

687

00:36:06,038 --> 00:36:09,208

you know, people that I know that are

maybe in a similar phase

688

00:36:09,208 --> 00:36:11,669

where they they've heard truth,

but they haven't fully accepted yet.

689

00:36:11,669 --> 00:36:13,713

But they know that it's true. Yeah.

690

00:36:13,713 --> 00:36:16,716

What's a word of advice or encouragement

you would give to,

691

00:36:16,883 --> 00:36:19,886

to people like that from,

from your own experience.

692

00:36:20,386 --> 00:36:21,220

Yeah.

693

00:36:21,220 --> 00:36:22,847

I think

694

00:36:22,847 --> 00:36:26,184

I would encourage people

to be honest about their anger

695

00:36:26,350 --> 00:36:29,353

and discouragements and disappointments.

696

00:36:29,937 --> 00:36:33,107

To to cry out to God what they think about

697

00:36:33,107 --> 00:36:36,110

God even at, to say maybe,

698

00:36:38,988 --> 00:36:41,199

not kind words

699

00:36:41,199 --> 00:36:44,702

because I remember the before

700

00:36:44,702 --> 00:36:48,831

I became a Christian, I spoke to

I open my heart to God to, to,

701

00:36:50,124 --> 00:36:51,959

to tell him what I think about him.

702

00:36:51,959 --> 00:36:54,045

And I was very angry.

703

00:36:54,045 --> 00:36:56,422

Yeah, I spoke words,

704

00:36:56,422 --> 00:36:59,425

I don't I will not use it in this episode.

705

00:36:59,508 --> 00:37:03,012

So I'm not

I'm not saying we use this word,

706

00:37:03,387 --> 00:37:06,974

but I'm saying be honest

about your thinking and your feeling

707

00:37:08,100 --> 00:37:11,812

because,

and there's nothing hidden before God.

708

00:37:12,271 --> 00:37:15,024

And if you are honest,

God seeks honest people,

709

00:37:15,024 --> 00:37:18,819

not almost perfect people

to make them perfect, but honesty

710

00:37:19,862 --> 00:37:22,865

that that's an important piece

that what you just said there.

711

00:37:23,407 --> 00:37:24,700

I'm not thought about it that way.

712

00:37:24,700 --> 00:37:28,412

God doesn't seek almost perfect people

necessarily to make, you know,

713

00:37:29,664 --> 00:37:32,291

but honest people,

that's that's really profound.

714

00:37:33,834 --> 00:37:36,837

Again, for for people listening who,

715

00:37:36,921 --> 00:37:40,049

you know, might have a friend

that's going through this, how how can we,

716

00:37:41,175 --> 00:37:44,470

whoever it is out there, that's that's

hearing this, how can they come alongside

717

00:37:44,887 --> 00:37:49,767

those people that are on this journey

who are maybe resisting the truth?

718

00:37:50,393 --> 00:37:53,396

How practically can we encourage people to

719

00:37:53,813 --> 00:37:57,733

to come to Christ, to

to let these things go, the,

720

00:37:58,025 --> 00:38:01,028

the addictions, the anger,

whatever it might be?

721

00:38:01,737 --> 00:38:04,532

Can you think back in times

of your own life where

722

00:38:04,532 --> 00:38:07,535

perhaps if you would have had

better influences or,

723

00:38:07,702 --> 00:38:10,705

community of believers around you

that could have helped speak into to you?

724

00:38:11,664 --> 00:38:14,792

And maybe that's too,

you know, too much speculation,

725

00:38:14,792 --> 00:38:17,795

but I think that could be

an important piece to,

726

00:38:18,129 --> 00:38:21,132

how can we take this and

and help others around us?

727

00:38:21,382 --> 00:38:23,134

You know,

who might be going through these things?

728

00:38:23,134 --> 00:38:23,759

Yeah.

729

00:38:23,759 --> 00:38:24,593

It's a very good question.

730

00:38:24,593 --> 00:38:26,971

I'm glad you asked me this because,

731

00:38:29,432 --> 00:38:33,102

many Christians, including me,

make the same mistake

732

00:38:33,102 --> 00:38:38,399

to Christianize people, whatever it cost,

you know, Christ died for a sin.

733

00:38:38,649 --> 00:38:41,652

And we all, we all are sinners,

734

00:38:43,863 --> 00:38:46,073

when we forget a step

735

00:38:46,073 --> 00:38:49,910

before

that to put yourself in their shoes.

736

00:38:51,412 --> 00:38:53,414

So to acknowledge

737

00:38:53,414 --> 00:38:57,418

the they are addicted,

for example, to acknowledge they are the

738

00:38:57,418 --> 00:39:01,464

they have a background of pain

or just to listen to them for a while

739

00:39:02,506 --> 00:39:05,343

to, maybe take

740

00:39:05,343 --> 00:39:09,055

it could take maybe a few years,

two years, three years, five years,

741

00:39:10,264 --> 00:39:14,602

So William Booth’s philosophy was is first

you give them food

742

00:39:15,061 --> 00:39:16,896

before you preach the gospel.

743

00:39:17,313 --> 00:39:19,106

And I think Jesus did the same thing.

744

00:39:19,106 --> 00:39:20,524

He healed people.

745

00:39:20,524 --> 00:39:21,359

He listened to people.

746

00:39:21,359 --> 00:39:23,903

He encouraged people before.

747

00:39:23,944 --> 00:39:24,904

Give them the message.

748

00:39:24,904 --> 00:39:26,906

So he did good.

749

00:39:26,906 --> 00:39:32,036

So this is one of the part we should not

forget to do good to the people.

750

00:39:32,620 --> 00:39:37,541

He told me about the the missionary and

and in Iraq and the Middle East,

751

00:39:39,710 --> 00:39:41,796

who are trying to win their trust

752

00:39:41,796 --> 00:39:44,799

because in particular, people,

753

00:39:45,591 --> 00:39:48,469

in the Middle East

or wherever they think, oh,

754

00:39:48,469 --> 00:39:51,472

the Western countries,

they are coming to Christianize us.

755

00:39:52,348 --> 00:39:56,018

So, I think one of the best method

756

00:39:56,018 --> 00:39:59,021

is to win someone's trust.

757

00:39:59,188 --> 00:40:02,191

And in my case, I

it was, for me, more helpful

758

00:40:02,191 --> 00:40:06,028

that people would acknowledge

that I am in a mess.

759

00:40:06,028 --> 00:40:08,989

I don't need advice at that moment.

760

00:40:09,115 --> 00:40:13,619

So, I think that will be very helpful

to to put your arm

761

00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,998

and on their shoulder to say, well, I'm

very sorry for you.

762

00:40:18,332 --> 00:40:22,336

I, I think maybe it's that is 50%

763

00:40:22,336 --> 00:40:25,339

preaching the gospel and this,

764

00:40:25,506 --> 00:40:28,509

action. So,

765

00:40:28,634 --> 00:40:32,721

to be a listener more than a speaker.

766

00:40:35,599 --> 00:40:35,933

Yeah,

767

00:40:35,933 --> 00:40:39,019

I, I think the preaching

will will come grudgingly.

768

00:40:40,271 --> 00:40:41,313

you're outlining

769

00:40:41,313 --> 00:40:44,316

something that involves a lot of patience.

770

00:40:44,525 --> 00:40:46,652

You know, and,

771

00:40:46,652 --> 00:40:48,737

that these things take time.

772

00:40:48,737 --> 00:40:51,699

Your story is spans years.

773

00:40:51,699 --> 00:40:54,076

You know many years.

774

00:40:54,076 --> 00:40:57,204

We've covered a lot of, years

in this episode.

775

00:40:57,204 --> 00:41:00,624

We're starting in, in Iraq,

you know, with more of the nominal

776

00:41:00,624 --> 00:41:04,587

Christian experience that you had there

coming here and, to the Netherlands.

777

00:41:04,587 --> 00:41:05,171

I mean,

778

00:41:05,171 --> 00:41:07,506

and just leaving a lot of that and,

you know,

779

00:41:07,506 --> 00:41:10,426

getting into different addictions

and whatever, but hearing the truth

780

00:41:10,426 --> 00:41:14,180

and then saying, I don't I'm

not ready for that yet until eventually

781

00:41:14,180 --> 00:41:17,183

you do arrive at the place

where you where you come to Christ.

782

00:41:17,433 --> 00:41:21,353

And just it shows to me

that these things are a process,

783

00:41:21,854 --> 00:41:24,356

and it it can take time.

784

00:41:24,356 --> 00:41:28,110

I wonder if sometimes we don't have

the patience when we work with people.

785

00:41:28,110 --> 00:41:30,988

We want to get them fixed right away.

786

00:41:30,988 --> 00:41:33,991

You know,

I feel like that might be a danger here.

787

00:41:34,575 --> 00:41:36,702

Yeah. Certainly. Yeah.

788

00:41:36,702 --> 00:41:37,828

You could not believe it.

789

00:41:37,828 --> 00:41:40,581

I made the same mistakes for a long time.

790

00:41:40,581 --> 00:41:44,293

I wanted to, I didn't understand

people who are not Christians.

791

00:41:46,504 --> 00:41:47,796

Yeah, but I

792

00:41:47,796 --> 00:41:52,009

gradually the Lord was gracious to me

and, patient.

793

00:41:52,009 --> 00:41:55,221

So I must feel patient and particular

for people

794

00:41:55,221 --> 00:42:00,601

who have a baggage of sorrow

and past and addiction.

795

00:42:01,310 --> 00:42:03,312

Yeah. And there are a lot.

796

00:42:03,312 --> 00:42:06,190

So it would be very helpful to hear

797

00:42:06,190 --> 00:42:09,610

some encouraging word

or maybe a word of appreciations.

798

00:42:10,444 --> 00:42:11,320

You are good in that.

799

00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,615

Or that maybe could be a starting point

800

00:42:15,241 --> 00:42:18,577

because they want to see the fruits

and that this is one of the things

801

00:42:19,161 --> 00:42:22,957

what helped my resistant to the gospel

I saw preaching, not the fruit.

802

00:42:23,290 --> 00:42:25,751

So why should I follow?

803

00:42:25,751 --> 00:42:29,296

Christ without, you know,

because we are little christs.

804

00:42:29,797 --> 00:42:33,092

So if we only preach and not do good

805

00:42:33,384 --> 00:42:36,387

and not listen enough, and to be.

806

00:42:37,471 --> 00:42:40,182

Maybe better than other

to preach the truth

807

00:42:40,182 --> 00:42:43,644

because I have the truth,

then it will not be helpful.

808

00:42:44,603 --> 00:42:45,521

Yeah.

809

00:42:45,521 --> 00:42:46,105

You're talking.

810

00:42:46,105 --> 00:42:49,608

It sounds like you're describing

like genuine care for people,

811

00:42:49,608 --> 00:42:52,987

not just saying the right things,

like you actually live it.

812

00:42:53,195 --> 00:42:53,571

Yeah.

813

00:42:53,571 --> 00:42:57,241

We are tempted to separate

these two things into I have learned in,

814

00:42:57,658 --> 00:43:01,579

in my walk with Christ

and the Protestant view of point,

815

00:43:02,788 --> 00:43:04,748

there is a strong, a tendency

816

00:43:04,748 --> 00:43:09,253

to separate the good works or to be kind

and to hear the gospel.

817

00:43:09,420 --> 00:43:11,714

I met a lot of people. Yes.

818

00:43:11,714 --> 00:43:12,965

They don't need bread.

819

00:43:12,965 --> 00:43:14,174

They need Jesus.

820

00:43:14,174 --> 00:43:17,177

You know,

it sounds very spiritual, but it is not

821

00:43:17,761 --> 00:43:20,764

because they need bread at the

when they are hungry.

822

00:43:21,140 --> 00:43:23,058

So you give them bread.

823

00:43:23,058 --> 00:43:27,313

And if some guy never heard

I love you, then you

824

00:43:27,313 --> 00:43:31,692

maybe you should be the first one to say

this word because you never heard that.

825

00:43:32,568 --> 00:43:37,197

And list can go on. So,

826

00:43:38,407 --> 00:43:40,242

it could be many things

827

00:43:40,242 --> 00:43:43,120

to show what it means to be

828

00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,373

nonresistance, to love and to encourage

and to forgive.

829

00:43:47,499 --> 00:43:50,502

And for me, it was also a process.

830

00:43:50,878 --> 00:43:53,130

And this is a part of the gospel.

831

00:43:53,130 --> 00:43:56,216

I don't think the gospel is

Jesus Christ died for your sin.

832

00:43:56,216 --> 00:43:59,219

This is a very short

version of the gospel,

833

00:43:59,219 --> 00:44:01,805

but the gospel is all picture.

834

00:44:01,805 --> 00:44:03,932

It’s the kingdom of God.

835

00:44:04,808 --> 00:44:07,686

We can't take just a little tiny slice

836

00:44:07,686 --> 00:44:10,939

or a little piece,

but there's so much more to it.

837

00:44:12,232 --> 00:44:15,110

In, in how we care for others and how we,

838

00:44:15,110 --> 00:44:18,113

how we actually live it

and show it to the people around us.

839

00:44:18,155 --> 00:44:21,158

Yeah, that's that's really powerful.

840

00:44:22,284 --> 00:44:24,244

So we've covered

841

00:44:24,244 --> 00:44:28,165

a lot of things in this episode,

and this has been fascinating.

842

00:44:28,916 --> 00:44:31,543

Hearing your story,

I feel like I've learned a lot.

843

00:44:31,543 --> 00:44:34,546

I think people listening to

this will, have learned a lot, and I.

844

00:44:34,588 --> 00:44:36,882

I hope they'll take from this.

845

00:44:36,882 --> 00:44:40,969

You're encouragement to to to walk

alongside people and really care for them.

846

00:44:41,220 --> 00:44:44,973

And and your point earlier

about how this can take

847

00:44:45,307 --> 00:44:48,102

a long time, you know, maybe years

before you see anything.

848

00:44:48,102 --> 00:44:52,022

And that was your situation and years

before you, you know,

849

00:44:52,022 --> 00:44:53,273

you finally accepted Christ.

850

00:44:54,566 --> 00:44:55,067

And that can

851

00:44:55,067 --> 00:44:58,070

be hard it to have that level of patience.

852

00:44:58,112 --> 00:45:00,781

But I think that's a, that's an important,

853

00:45:00,781 --> 00:45:03,033

important piece to, to leave people.

854

00:45:03,033 --> 00:45:06,995

So as we wrap this episode up,

is there any final words

855

00:45:06,995 --> 00:45:08,580

you'd like to leave our audience?

856

00:45:08,580 --> 00:45:11,583

I think I have said everything

Well, Saher,

857

00:45:11,583 --> 00:45:15,087

thank you so much

for coming on the podcast today.

858

00:45:15,087 --> 00:45:19,216

And, yeah, thank you for being willing

to share your testimony with us. Joy.

859

00:45:19,258 --> 00:45:20,134

Thank you.

860

00:45:21,009 --> 00:45:23,595

Thanks for listening

to this episode with Saher.

861

00:45:23,595 --> 00:45:26,724

If you found this topic intriguing,

you'll like this other episode we did

862

00:45:26,724 --> 00:45:29,810

with Lucas Hilty, where he talks

about the early church history

863

00:45:29,893 --> 00:45:31,186

through the Middle East.

864

00:45:31,186 --> 00:45:33,939

You can find that

linked in the description down below.

865

00:45:33,939 --> 00:45:36,775

We also have a monthly email newsletter,

which you can sign up

866

00:45:36,775 --> 00:45:40,154

on our website

at anabaptistperspectives.org.

867

00:45:40,487 --> 00:45:43,574

Thanks again for listening

and we'll catch you in the next episode.