It takes no special talent to do a transition.

It just takes practice and plan.

So I know you and I both had the experience where we come out of the water, whatever, 20th or 20th or whatever it is, and all of a sudden we're third getting on the bike, right?

Hello, this is the June 27, 2025 edition of the Tridock Podcast.

I'm your host, Chuck Sankoff, the Tridock, an emergency physician, a triathlete, triathlon coach, and a multiple Ironman finisher.

Coming to you as always from beautiful sunny Denver, Colorado.

The voice you heard at the beginning of the podcast is one that I'm sure you're all familiar with.

That is my friend, my colleague, my partner for the Medical mailbag, coach Juliet Hockman a few episodes ago.

Gosh, it's a couple of almost a couple of months ago now.

Juliet and I paired up to bring you a segment on our philosophies of coaching.

And it was one that I asked you Arlene listeners for some feedback on.

And we got a lot of positive feedback.

People wanted to hear more about what we didn't get to in that segment.

I mentioned at the time that we had a list of things that we just didn't have time to get to at that time and people wanted to hear about it.

So we got the band back together.

And after the Medical Mailbag today, you will hear the remainder of the topics that we wanted to speak about in that original segment.

We have made sure to get it all covered this time.

We hope that you like what we have to talk about and terms of how we approach coaching with our own athletes.

And there are still other things that we could bring to the fore.

So if you want to hear more, please do let us know.

And if you want to hear these kinds of conversations, I am happy to bring on other guests who are in the coaching world just to have those kinds of conversations.

You heard me recently speak with the pair, the duo Jordi and Gordon Donnelly, who are the pair that run Trivelo coaching.

I thought we had a great conversation as well.

So I am happy to bring on other coaches and have those kinds of conversations on this program.

So let me know.

You can reach me@tridocloud.com and of course you can join the private Facebook group.

Just search for the Tridoc podcast on that platform.

You will have to answer three easy questions to gain admittance into that group, but once you're there, you can join the conversation, submit ideas for interviews that you would like to hear, and of course ask questions for the Medical Mailbag.

And on the Medical Mailbag, which will be coming up right after this brief, brief soliloquy, you will hear Juliet and I discuss cold plunges.

That's something that has really made a resurgence of late.

I don't know about you, but my social media advertisings have been just blown up by the variety of companies that are offering cold plunge tubs, cold plunge pumps, all variety and all manner of machinery so that you can get cold.

Is there anything to this idea that getting cold is a good way to recover after a hard workout?

I actually reviewed that subject pretty early on in this podcast history, but I thought it was time to bring it back because just a few short weeks ago the Washington Post had a really nice article that summarized some of the science on this.

And my intern, Nina Takashima, a former D3 swimmer, she was very familiar with the concept of cold plunges, having been forced to endure them in between swimming heats.

She was interested in the science herself and she had a good time going into it and finding what there was so that we can present it to you in the Medical mailbag.

And that's coming right up.

Before I get there though, I just wanted to give you a little brief update on my recent experience at the boulder 70.3 that took place when this comes out.

It'll be just about a couple of weeks ago.

I had the opportunity to get back out on the course for the first time this year, and it's the first time since I have had a major overhaul in my own personal life that has affected my ability to train in the past.

As a clinical emergency physician, I was working in a cadence that allowed me to have quite a few days during the week where I would really be able to dedicate almost an entire day to training.

And that allowed me to really balance my life in terms of how much I worked and how much I was able to train and get in a lot of hours on a regular basis every week.

And that obviously contributed to my success as a triathlete, as over the past several years I have regularly been able to make it into the top five of my age group.

And that has been something I've been very proud of and something that has really defined me as a triathlete and something that I've been kind of gotten used to in a lot of ways.

Now as I've reached the upper part of my age group in the 55 to 59 year old men, that's become harder to do.

And now as I've started a new job where I'M working much more regular hours.

I'm having to be up very early in the morning and being a little more fatigued in the later parts of the day and being a lot busier with all the things I have to get done before I go to sleep early.

It's been a lot harder to get in the kind of volume and the kind of consistency of training that I've been used to.

And so I was somewhat concerned as I got to the start line in Boulder, would I be able to perform at the level that I had before.

And unsurprisingly, I didn't do quite as well as I have now.

I should say not like I did that terribly.

Whereas last year I finished fifth, this year I finished seventh.

Not a huge drop off and my time wasn't all that much slower on a day when it was significantly hotter.

So all in all it wasn't a huge drop off.

But for me it felt like a big drop off.

I hadn't missed a podium in quite a few races and my swim was.

Gosh, it was just terrible.

Honestly, it was one of the worst swims I've had in quite a long time.

And part of that has to do with training.

I had a ski injury where I injured my shoulder and I haven't been able to swim quite as much because I've had quite a bit of shoulder discomfort, but also just the amount of time I've had available because of my new job.

But when I reflected back even while I was racing and started to understand that I wasn't going to have the kind of day that I've had in the past, I was able to come to a pretty sanguine kind of place.

There I was out on the course understanding that I wasn't going to be competitive in the way that I had before and yet I was pretty okay with it.

I was pretty content.

I think that our journey in multi sport, if you're like me, someone who started as a back of the packer who made their way up into the middle of the pack and while doing so padd lot of revelations about what the sport meant to them, how they had to figure out how to make the sport fit into their life in a way that didn't impact all the people around them.

I've said many times on this program how important it is as an athlete and now as a coach who works with athletes to make training fit your life and not the other way around.

Here I was out on the course recognizing that I was having the race that I deserved because I had worked so hard to make training fit into the life that I now had.

And on balance, I was okay with it.

Because the reality is that since I have started my new job, my life has been really good.

The job that I had before was incredibly stressful, was putting me in a really deep, dark place in terms of my mental health.

And ever since I started my new job at the beginning of this new year, I have been a completely changed person.

I sleep every night, I go to bed, I hit the pillow, I'm out like a light tart Cherry juice, of course, has a good, good way of helping with that.

But even without that, I just not stressed anymore.

I'm able to sleep right through until my alarm goes off in the morning.

I get up feeling refreshed.

I enjoy my workday, I enjoy my colleagues.

I feel valued, something that I did not feel in my previous job and that is immeasurably beneficial.

And so because my outlook is so much better, because my life is so much better, I felt like it was a pretty small thing to have to trade to go from being on the podium to being just off of it.

And here I was still very much enjoying the thing that I love so much and have come to love over the last many years, that finishing in seventh and off the podium.

You know what, that was a pretty small thing to give up, to have so many positives in its place.

And the fact that I still enjoy the training that I do, the fact that after the race I felt like I had this kind of newfound motivation to figure out ways to find the ability to be able to train better so that I could show up at my next race better prepared and potentially claw my way back up onto that top five.

That was a pretty nice thing, too.

So where are you at in your journey?

Are you still trying to find out how to find the balance?

Are you looking for ways to find satisfaction?

Or are you, like me, satisfied with where you're at because you know that you're doing the best you can and getting the best from multisport while also enjoying all of the other fruits of your labor?

Let me know.

I would love to hear.

I'd love to share your comments with the rest of the listeners because I know there are a lot of people out there who probably struggle with their why, with their wondering if they could do more either in their personal life or in their multisport life.

And it's probably a tough, existential kind of thing that everybody goes through when they're trying to put all the pieces together.

So Share your comments.

Let other people here please send me an email.

Leave the comments in the Facebook group.

We would love to share them together as a community.

Let us know.

All right, with that, let's get on to the medical mailbag and talk about cold plunges.

It's coming up right now.

Hey, Juliet.

Fresh off of the Oregon pre race clinic.

I know.

What a crazy day yesterday.

You're right.

Yeah, it's good times up in Salem.

Yeah.

Down in Salem for you.

Now you know it so well because you've raced there once.

You're going to race there again in four weeks time.

Yes, I run this clinic every year.

Athletes who have never done the race or perhaps are new to 70.3 racing altogether come down.

We swim this extremely fast course.

I think my time yesterday was 50 seconds per hundred.

I wanted to ask actually, because your pictures of the water, it looked amazing.

It was like glass.

Yeah, it was.

Usually when it's running super fast, it looks different that it doesn't look that smooth.

I know.

But then I got one of our athletes who is a longtime life sport athlete to get in.

He's a very strong swimmer, Brian, and swim upstream just to demonstrate to everybody how fast it was actually going and he wasn't moving.

So.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

So no, it was flowing about 50 seconds.

50 to 55 seconds per hundred.

I stopped a few times to help athletes, but it's definitely fast.

So it's a really fun experience to put athletes into that.

And it also quells a lot of anxiety about the swimming.

And everybody comes out going, oh, I can do that.

Whereas beforehand, of course, they were really scared.

So, yeah, talking about pacing, nutrition, looking at the bike course, looking at the run course.

It's a long day, but it's a great day and I think the athletes really appreciate it.

So now I, like so many, desperately need that Oregon swim to restore my confidence.

I know I was joking with a longtime listener and supporter of the show, Rebecca Adamson, last year saying how this isn't really a triathlon, it's a duathlon with a little freshener.

A dip.

Yeah.

And this year I am very happy to be signed up for it because, man, after Boulder, I need something to help with my swim.

So this is going to be it.

I'm going to come out totally renewed in my invigoration for swimming.

Well, here's the great thing about that swim.

If anybody pays anything to any attention to TSS and training peaks, of course, if you do that swim, it gives you this enormous swim tss because you're swimming so fast and I'm looking at this going, I should probably manually change that.

And then I thought, nah, nah, take it, take it.

Yeah.

For all the times it's wrong and underestimates, you might as well take the boost.

Yeah.

We are here to kibitz, of course, but also to address a question on the Medical mailbag.

This one doesn't come from a listener, but rather from the two of us because we have noticed something, I don't know, flowing, shall we say, like the river.

What is the river that we swim in in Salem?

It's the Willamette River.

The Willamette River.

Oh, such a mellifluous name.

What is the question that we are going to be addressing today?

So probably people who follow triathlon have noticed that recently on social media, on Instagram, we're seeing this resurgence of top level triathletes, pro triathletes, et cetera, getting back into the cold plunge and swearing by the cold plunge and throwing themselves into buckets of icy water.

And even you probably noticed around Father's Day there was all of this, the perfect Father's Day gift.

Oh my gosh, it was crazy.

Yeah.

Get your loved one a portable cold plunge.

Anyway, so it's coming back and this was a big thing a few years ago and I think you've talked about it before on this podcast and now all of a sudden in the Washington Post, as of a couple weeks ago, there was an article, are cold plunge is good for you?

And I know certainly here in my town in the Columbia river, in the Columbia river, which gets very cold in the winter, there are people who are out there all winter doing cold plunge au natural.

And so it is a thing.

I think it's probably been out there for a long time, but now it's becoming popular and talked about again.

So tell us what this article said.

Tell us what the research tells us as of now.

Yeah, there's a few things about cold water plunges and I think we should probably just address it up front and break it into the different categories.

And there is this idea that cold water plunges is good for your overall health.

I am not going to go into that.

And we know about, I can't remember what his name is, the guy who lives, does he live in Iceland or in Scandinavia somewhere?

He's very famous, very famous for doing this like really intense cold water stuff.

He swears by it and he's got a lot of followers.

Unfortunately, people have come to bad.

Yeah, there's been deaths doing it and I think he actually.

Is he a breath holder too?

I can't remember, but.

Oh, boy.

Okay.

Yeah, there's like a lot of stuff there.

I don't want to get into that too much, but there is some science that does suggest that cold water actually is good in the long run for some health issues.

And there's also this thing in Scandinavia where you go from a sauna into cold water.

There are good and bad about that, but there is evidence to suggest that on balance, that's actually a good thing.

There is also this notion that cold water plunges are good for you psychologically.

And this is.

This has its roots.

This goes back like a long time.

But there is like amongst the trail running community and the ultra running community, a lot of those are done in the backcountry.

And when they finish, they just happen to be next to a mountain stream.

It's really nice and refreshing and they feel dirty and hot.

And so they go and they sit in the cold water while they're drinking their post race beverage, often a post race beer, and just.

It just feels great.

And so this is really where the resurgence of the cold water plunge came from.

It's from that idea of getting into a cold stream after these really long events.

And people swore by it.

And this led to the idea of developing these ice baths.

And you see it in a lot of sports, a lot of professional sports, football players are notorious for doing it.

And Nina Takeshima, who was the intern who looked into this, she was a Division 3 college swimmer and she said her team did this all the time.

And when I sent her the article to look into, she said, oh, this is really interesting.

I'm fascinated to find out what the evidence says because we were told to do this.

We were told, hey, you had your heats in the morning, you've got the finals in the afternoon.

Do your cold water plunge.

It's gonna help you be ready for the next set of heats that you're gonna have to do.

And she said, we all did it and then we get out and we were freezing cold and we had to warm up to be ready to swim again.

It was like a very counterintuitive kind of thing.

Yeah, that sounds crazy, but okay.

Right.

But the whole premise there, and that's really what I wanted to look into, is this notion that cold water plungers are good for recovery.

And that really is what it's being promoted for.

And that is how it's being advertised and very aggressively so.

Over the Father's Day period, I was being inundated yeah, all of these different ads for the different.

There's inflatable.

There's like, there's just the little machines you can buy.

I don't know.

I don't know when it stopped being so basic as just fill up a thing with water and throw in some ice cubes and jump in.

But anyways, so yeah, it's all over the place now.

And I did review this quite a long time ago, but when this article came out in the Washington Post, I was quite intrigued and I thought, you know what, let's take a look and see if there's anything new.

And it turns out there's.

There is there.

There's been some review articles and some meta analyses, but the findings are pretty much the same.

So the article back in June 4, it was in the Washington Post on June 4, and it was written by Gretchen Reynolds.

I'm not sure what her scientific background is, but she did a pretty good job of just summarizing and synthesizing the SC science for the layperson.

And essentially what she said is, look, cold plungers have become really popular over the years.

Studies actually suggest that rather than helping, especially when it comes to recovery, they may actually reduce the benefits of workouts.

And you can understand why.

And the reason is because when you get into very cold water, especially the water that is as cold as it is, when it's a lot of these cold water plunges are in the 5-10 degrees Celsius, which is really cold, some of them are even colder, you significantly vasoconstrict.

And so you reduce the amount of blood flow that's going to these muscles that you've just been working really hard.

And we've talked many times about how important it is after a workout to allow for blood flow in order to restore all of the muscle damage that's been done to wash away.

I'm going to use this word, it got me into a lot of trouble on an Instagram reel recently.

But I'm going to use it here.

Between you and I.

Go right ahead.

Head to wash away all the toxins.

As we talked about before, I always think of it as the soldiers in my bloodstream, like marching to the place that is hurting and, you know, administering first aid.

Yeah.

And when I say toxins, I'm not using it in the the granola pseudoscience way.

I'm using it in a way as to explain.

Look, when you do a hard effort, you're breaking down a lot of proteins.

You're breaking.

You're creating a lot of superoxides within those cells.

And those things are toxic and they' there are inflammatory molecules and a lot of these things, they're there for a reason, but they can cause damage if they are left unchecked.

And the idea behind these cold plunges has always been, oh, cold reduces inflammation, so it must be good.

But there is more and more study that was nicely summarized in this Washington Post article that says, you know what, if you reduce blood flow to these muscles, you're actually letting those inflammatory molecules sit there and do more damage.

And it also inhibits the adaptive kind of processes that are needed in order for muscles to become larger and stronger over time.

This is concerning.

And as a result of that, Nina found, she found, she went and dug through some of the other science that has been done and she found a meta analysis and a meta regression with a systematic review.

Long title it's impact of cold water immersion compared with passive recovery following a single bout of strenuous exercise on athletic performance in physically active participants.

It's a mouthful, but I think it gets across what it was looking for.

And essentially it did a systematic review and meta analysis of 52 studies and it looked at cold water immersion and found that subjectively, if you ask people to get into cold water and then you have them fill out a survey, a lot of them say, you know what felt really good.

I feel like I'm less sore.

I feel like, you know, that was a really enjoyable experience after the initial, not so much fun, few minutes.

But when you look at actual markers of cell damage, when you look at actual performance, and there are very few studies that actually look at repeat performance here, but some of them did.

When you look at actual repeat performance, when you look at actual markers, it turns out either no improvements or slightly worse.

And when you look over time, especially amongst resistance exercise, exercise where it's important to have muscle mass, you start to see that there are some deficits.

So, so Great.

More recent study 2025 looked at cold water immersion on health and well being.

And this compared water baths of 10 to 15 degrees, which is a lot warmer than what we're seeing advertised.

Most of the advertisements are really cold, around 5 degrees, maybe as high as 10, but this one was warmer than that 10 to 15, which is about 50 to 59 degrees Fahrenheit.

So kind of mountain stream ish, but not like these ice B and this looked at whether or not cold water immersion at that temperature could be useful.

And again found that psychological, cognitively, people, when asked questions on surveys seem to report that you know what, they felt like it, it was helpful.

But again, any physiological, any kind of recovery based metrics or objective measures of performance did not bear out any of the claims that are being made by a lot of these manufacturers.

And I don't know about you, but have you looked at any of these things to see how much they cost?

No, I haven't.

Like you, I figured, well, if you've got a tin bucket with a bunch of ice in it, you're probably fine.

But I'm sure they're much more dialed in terms of the temperature of the water.

They're pricey.

They're pricey.

They're like.

Some of the ones I've seen even on sale were like a thousand bucks.

I haven't checked out the ones that have been at the Expo, but I can't imagine they're marketing such expensive things at triathlon.

They might be, but it just seems definitely not inexpensive.

Benefits and risks of Cold Plunges another article from 2024.

They talk about different recommendations being made by different people who are in this kind of space.

And they are very careful to say that, look, you really do have to watch out with some of these because you can get cold exposure and all of the issues that go along with that.

Dropping your core temperature, never a great idea.

You can actually get frostbite and different problems.

Especially because some of these things go down to 4 degrees Celsius, which is 40 degrees Fahrenheit.

That's not comfortable and not a really good idea.

Now there are settings where using a cold water bath can be really helpful and that can be at the end of an event where it's been really hot and there's a lot of humidity and there's a temperature stress.

So that's a different situation.

That's not talking about recovery, but that's actually talking about, I guess it is a form of recovery, but it's a recovery from a heat stress.

It's not a recovery from the exertion that you just did.

And in order to try and be able to perform better the next day.

Again, studies showing that on balance there just doesn't seem to be this enormous amount of benefit to doing this.

And then finally, a study from 2024 exploring the benefits of cold exposure in health and athletic performance.

Review of ARTICLES A lot of these articles tend to be the same.

They're reviewing the same papers that have been and just synthesizing the data in a different way.

This looked at several different cryotherapy techniques.

There are local application of ice or cold compresses.

There's cold showers, there's cold water immersion like we're talking about.

And then there's whole body cryotherapy, which is these.

I don't know.

They used to be a.

The rage for a little while.

No, there's these.

You sit in like this box and it's sealed up around your neck.

And then they actually have your.

With your enclosed so it doesn't actually touch you.

But then they.

They use like a G.

It's either.

I'm not sure if it's dry ice or if it's.

It's not liquid nitrogen that's too cold, but they're doing something so that it's really cold.

Like it's super cold.

It's not for long, it's very brief, but it really gets you cold very quickly.

And they found that cryotherapy like that can have some really significant cardiovascular effects, like increasing heart rate, increasing blood pressure.

It can actually reduce blood flow to the brain because we have these protective reflexes to make sure the brain doesn't get too cold.

And if all of your blood is suddenly only becoming very cold, you're gonna reduce blood flow.

There's actually been episodes of fainting that has been seen with these kinds of dramatic cryotherapies.

And there has been changes in respiration where people end up increasing their ventilation, blowing off a lot of carbon dioxide, which can also impact blood flow to the brain.

So a lot of different physiologic things that can happen.

We also know that there's some changes and hormonal things that have not been well studied.

But the long and the short of it is all of the studies that we looked at and everything that Nina found convinced her that what she was being told in college was not accurate and was not helpful.

And her own experience was she got cold, she didn't get better, she didn't go to her next.

And it's so interesting because you watch.

Drivers, I was going to say that they get into the warm tub afterwards.

And they get into a shower.

The first thing they do, they jump out, they get into a hot shower and then they get into a hot tub.

And I had an experience.

This goes back a long way.

I did Ironman Curta land way back in 2005.

And when I finished that race, I had intense pain in my legs.

I just had a lot of trouble getting up and walking around.

And we were like walking out of the expo, me and my wife, and they had these hot tubs set up.

And at the time that was kind of anathema.

You didn't do that.

You didn't do heat.

But I was like, I didn't know what to do.

I just was having so much pain in my leg.

So I sat in the hot tub for 15 minutes and I felt so much incredible relief.

I felt like after that was all I needed.

And after that, I was able to walk around and I had significantly less discomfort.

And there have been studies, and I actually reviewed this a few years ago now, there have been studies that have started to suggest that heat is better than cold for recovery, because it does exactly what we're saying it does the opposite.

It causes vasodilation, it improves blood flow, flow to your muscles that have just exerted themselves.

It allows for this washing out.

It allows for restored carbohydrate delivery, oxygen delivery, to repair that oxygen debt and everything else.

And in the light of that, I find myself going like, why are we still talking about these cold plunges?

Because the psychological benefits clearly are there.

And I wonder if that's what everybody's anchoring on now.

You talk about that hot tub experience.

How do you juxtapose that against what we all know we do?

If we sprain an ankle, put ice on it, or if there's visible swelling, put an ice, put ice on it.

Because we actually want to restrict the bad swelling to that area or at least bring it, try to bring it down.

But now I understand what you're talking about with the hot tubs.

Hot tubs actually can feel pretty good shortly after exercise.

But it is a little bit counterintuitive.

It is and it isn't.

We want that blood flow to those areas that have been broken down.

But there is also some.

Sometimes it's fine line where you get all this swelling that actually ice might.

Or cold might be better for that.

So as a physician, how do you.

How would you look at that?

So in an acute injury, like an ankle sprain or something like that, there's no question the localized swelling is.

It's a response, but it is a potentially deleterious response because all of that swelling is going to be painful and it can actually prolong the injury.

So in that situation, you definitely want do compression, elevation, ice for the first 24 hours.

But after that, we do recommend heat because we do want to encourage blood flow to the area.

We don't only recommend ice for the first 24 hours or so.

Now, that's a different situation, like an acute injury where you've actually torn something broken, something that is a different situation.

And I do not mean to insinuate that we shouldn't use ice in those kinds of scenarios, but what I am suggesting is that just this general, general hard effort.

Yes.

Is there swelling at a local level?

There is, but that swelling is not necessarily bad in this situation because you're not getting.

If you've ever had a sprain or a break, you know that's massive amounts of swelling, right.

That's a significant amount of capillary leak.

It's a significant amount of fluid that ends up aggregating in that area.

And that can be deleterious.

But when we're talking about having just done a three hour bike ride or an hour and a half run at effort, you're not not getting that much noticeable swelling.

And there's an argument to be made that by improving blood flow to that area, not only are you going to allow the ingress of fluid, but you may also improve the egress of fluid because you are allowing for more blood flow through the area, more healing effect and allowing.

Because like I said, we do want heat after 24 hours.

With the increasing evidence that suggests maybe heat earlier than that is actually good and maybe the cold is actually doing more harm.

Harm, right.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I don't have the.

I'm theorizing a little bit here because I don't have the best answer, but I do think that an acute injury is definitely different than the.

For sure.

But I also think there's a little bit of a gray area because all.

A number of us have these problem spots.

So we know that it swells up a little bit after a hard workout.

It's not an acute injury, but we put ice on it because we know that's helping a little bit with the kind of crack chronic.

And so that's why it was more of those cases that I'm curious about.

Do we know which one?

Do we.

Are we icing or are we eating?

And I will say when you have a chronic issue that just gets a little bit swollen, ice is less effective.

Ice is really most effective for an acute issue.

Right.

When it's something that's just like indolent and then it becomes a little bit more swollen.

Yeah.

It tends to be a little bit less effective then because that's less about an acute inflammatory reaction with sudden capillary leakage, that's more about something that's been been going on for a while and you tend to have localized edema for a while and so different kind of cellular mechanisms.

So.

Right.

Yeah.

I Think there's nuance here to be sure.

And I think that if you're one of those people who enjoys and feels like they're getting psychological benefit from using cold plunges, I wouldn't say not to do it, but I would say be careful because I do think, I do believe that there is evidence that cold plunges after a hard workout can potentially inhibit the adaptations and potentially inhibit your benefits from that training.

So I would say if you want to use cold plunges as a psychological thing, if you want to use cold plunges as a way to cool down, I think that's great.

I would be very careful to keep the temperature above 10 degrees.

I would not be using these ultra cold plunges.

I would also be careful to use it for very.

Keep the time low.

I don't have any.

I'm sorry, but I don't.

I wasn't able to find anything that talked about an optimal amount of time.

And then the other thing I would say is maybe don't time this to your workouts.

If you finish a three hour workout or something and or whatever it is you finish a hard workout, don't use the cold plunge right away.

Maybe use it many hours later as your psychological well being as opposed to thinking it's doing anything for recovery.

Because it very clearly is not.

It just is not interesting.

I think that's the take home, huh?

It would be interesting to see a study which focused on.

I think when we're defining cold plunge, we're defining the whole body up to your neck.

But all of us know that if you use your mountain stream post run as an example, if you weighed in up mid thigh, right.

So you get your feet, your ankles, your knees, your core quads after a hard workout like that feels amazing.

It's when you start getting to your waist that this.

You'Re very clearly, it's.

There's very clearly these local effects though that are important in a negative way.

But yes, there's no question it feels great because your muscles are warm, you're hot and you just love that.

That cooling effect feels great.

But it's the thing that feels good is also the thing that's potentially not productive.

Not productive.

Yeah, maladaptive.

Because that cold is reducing blood FL to the area which is potentially having these adverse effects and not giving you what you want.

Yeah.

But the cold stream is very unlikely to be that cold, so probably not that bad.

And I do want to point out a lot of us when we do the swims in our triathlons, we're Always like, oh, the water's cold.

But there's evidence here to suggest that cold water is beneficial.

Right.

It gets us.

Because there's a lot of evidence that shows that cold water improves cognitive function and makes you much more awake.

Lake.

And no doubt about that.

Right?

We know.

We know.

And so getting in that swim and having that water be 65 or so, as much as it feels, oh, my gosh, a bit of a shock right at the beginning there, it's actually probably a pretty good thing and maybe offsets that IQ drop we always talk about in T1.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's what I got.

For this episode.

We have had a few suggestions for questions, and I do want to mention that I had a couple people come up to me at the boulder 70.3, and I really appreciated that.

Warmed the heart, made me feel the love for what we're doing here, Juliette.

So I thank you for making that call out in the episode before the race.

So, yes, look for us in Oregon.

We will be together at the Oregon 70.3.

That'll be fun.

And if you are participating in that race, let us know.

And we would love to meet up with you either on the Friday or the Saturday.

Saturday.

We will both be there both days.

All right.

We will actually be.

We'll actually be swimming down the river on Saturday morning.

So hit us up if that's something you've never done before.

And yeah, maybe we'll let you join the cool kids and come down swimming.

Swimming.

AKA floating, enjoying.

Yeah.

AKA restoring Jeff's confidence in his.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

All right, that's what we got for you.

If you have a question for the medical mailbag, we hope that you will let us know.

You can do so in a number of ways.

You can email me at tri_docloud.com you can jump on over to Facebook where you can become a member of the TriDoc podcast Facebook group if you're not already.

I hope that you will search for it on that platform, answer the three easy questions will gain you admittance, and we'd love to have you join the conversation and submit your questions there.

Until we hear from you, we will look forward to chatting with you again in a couple weeks time.

Juliet, thanks so much for being here with me as always.

I always appreciate it.

Thank you so much, Jeff.

All right, if you're listening on the podcast, it's only been a few seconds since Juliet and I were here for the medical mailbag and we are back for the interview segment.

If you're watching on the YouTube channel, though something's amiss.

You'll notice we're wearing different clothes differently, and the lighting is also different.

And the reason for that is because of we're recording this on a different day.

In fact, we're recording this a week before we actually record the medical mailbag just because of our own schedules and everything else going on in life.

But for you listening, you are none the wiser.

Except I just spilled the beans and here we are.

And.

But you can know we're keeping it fresh for you guys.

We're keeping it fresh.

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

Juliet, I already know you're well, but once again, how are you and thank you for joining me.

I am very well.

How are you?

Because you are recovering from a 70.3 performance over the weekend.

I am.

And I, as I said in the top of the program and as I spoke to you after the, the race, it's a new perspective.

It's something I'm, I think continue to process.

But different experience for me with a lot going on this year in terms of my life has changed and different job, different ability to train.

And as I said to you, and as I said to our listeners at the beginning of the program, the fact that I have such a better kind of overall quality of life, a better mental health state, trading that seventh place instead of a podium position for my overall better outlook and everything else is not a bad trade.

So I'm pretty happy about that, very content with how it went, but met with Coach Lance this morning and talked about ways that I can try and maximize the time that I have work to try and improve and see if I can't get a little bit faster.

Because I, I gotta say, I haven't been this sore after in a while.

And it's because I know I pushed myself past my training and that's when you get sore.

And so I need to be a little bit better prepared for the next one in Oregon in what, six weeks time.

So that's my goal, is to try and be better prepared for the next one and maybe do better as well.

We'll see.

But, but all the things I think it's an interesting possibly podcast topic and we know some podcasts upon which this could be a topic.

Topic is navigating the different chapters of triathlon as things in life change and there is no value judgment on one being better or worse than the other.

But just recognizing that all age group athletes, including coaches, go through these different chapters and coming to peace with each one and sucking the marrow out of each one and whatever it gives us.

And I think that because certainly we talked about this, you and I, offline, and, and I think that's, that might be a good conversation for some of our listeners to hear as well as they try to navigate those different chapters as well.

I think so.

And I think it'd be good to bring in some other voices because I know that there are other people who've gone through similar things where they maybe were very high level, elite amateurs and then they had kids or they changed transition to a job and were they still able to find fulfillment in not making be performing at the same level.

And then all of a sudden something happens in their life where they're able to start performing again.

And you go through this up and down.

And I have to say that for me, I have this sort of added layer and this is entirely coming from within.

This is not coming externally at all.

This is for me, I have always prided myself as a coach, as somebody that my athletes can look up to, as somebody who has been very successful.

And so I want to continue to be successful.

And so I, I am not really struggling, but I'm looking at, oh, I wasn't on the podium this weekend.

Is that still going to be the kind of success that athletes are going to want?

But I know that is inherently silly.

That I understand Matt, completely.

Yeah, yeah.

My own coach has never, as far as I know, I don't even know if Atlanta has been on a podium and yet I think the world of him.

So I, I anyways, it's something that I think you're right be a great conversation.

So, yeah, to be continued.

We'll have to plan on that.

But okay, for now we are here, Juliet and I, to bring part two of a con that we had back in March.

It was episode 167.

So it goes back several episodes now where we talked about our coaching philosophy, our personal coaching philosophy.

And we asked at the end of that conversation because we weren't able to cover all of the topics that we had brought to the table.

And we asked to hear from you as to whether or not you wanted to hear more.

And it was pretty resounding that, yes, people really enjoyed what we had to say and they wanted to hear more.

And I think that even was echoed again more recently when I talked to Jordi and Gerard Donnelly from Trivello Coaching, who also shared their own personal philosophies.

And people found that also very interesting.

Juliette and I are here to cover a few topics that we didn't get to when we talked about our coaching philosophies and we're going to dive in right away and we'll be very interested once again to hear your feedback as listeners as to whether or not you enjoy this.

If you want to hear more even still, and also your own thoughts.

So please jump over to the Try to Podcast Facebook group where you can join the conversation.

Leave your thoughts there and we would love to have you as part of that conversation.

So let's start, Juliet, with your thoughts and your philosophy on how you counsel your athletes about nutrition.

And I recognize when we talk about nutrition, there's day to day nutrition and then there's training and race nutrition.

Neither one of us are dietitians, right.

I do feel like I can as a physician give some advice about day to day nutrition and I will on occasion.

But I stay awake from like what Celine does as the life sport dietitian because I don't feel like that's really my role.

But where do you go with nutrition and how what's your, your philosophy?

So what I can promise as part of the coaching package and athletes often ask about this in a sort of entrance interview is the race, the training and race day nutrition.

And so if an athlete is pointing towards anything from an Olympic above distance event training with the nutrition they're going to use on race day and finding a nutrition combination that works for them so they can have a successful runoff.

Right?

That's what we're hoping for.

So, and so we I generally start with kind of the same formula which works for a lot of athletes.

And then if athletes need to tweak that either because they're super salty sweaters or they just don't like the products that I'm suggesting, or they want all their calories in the the bottle or whatever it is, then we tweak from this kind of basic formula that can work for a lot of people.

So that's where we start.

And I work with a lot of first time 70.3 athletes and first time Ironman athletes.

So we're starting with from no knowledge whatsoever.

And so they're being introduced to these easily digestible high energy products.

A lot of them have never used them before or I'm taking them from something that they have been using which may just not work for being able to carry that much nutrition on the bike for three hours or six hours or eight hours or whatever it is.

So that's how I handle.

Can I ask what is the basics sort of that you start with?

So the basics that I start with assuming the athlete's coming in with no opinion, essentially is 250 to 300 calories an hour.

Now if they're a bigger person, we might go larger than that, but starting with that and hoping that we can, can move up in terms of on bike.

On the bike, sorry, this is on the bike.

And that is often in the form of gels or chews because those are the easiest to eat and access when you're on the bike, particularly if you've only got one hand and then at least one bottle an hour, preferably of an electrolyte, but if water or an electrolyte.

And so that's where we start.

And so they're getting about 300 calories an hour on the bike as a starter.

And then if we can, if that works and we can creep them up into terms of however you want to measure calories per hour or carbs per hour, then we go ahead and do that.

But a lot of depends on what they're coming in with, the size of the athlete, the distance of the event, et cetera.

How about you?

What do you.

And then oftentimes it will pivot because athletes want everything in their bottle or it's very hot, or we need more sodium or they don't like certain products or whatever it is.

And then we'll pivot from there.

But that's where I usually start.

And I think, like you, I am very informed by my own personal experience over 20 plus years in the sport.

And I have tried a lot of different things and I have, have just navigated my way to an entire strategy of everything's in the bottles.

Right?

I know, I do supplement.

Yeah, I do supplement with a little bit of real food in the form of waffles.

I've tried bars, I've tried different things and in the end I've come down to waffles.

I have one waffle for a 70.3 and two for an Ironman.

But everything else is in bottles.

And so I counsel my athletes.

And a lot of times athletes will come if they're more experienced.

They already have something in mind that they want to use.

And I'm fine with that.

I tell everybody whatever works for you is what I want you to do.

But like you, the target needs to be ideally 3 50, 400 calories per hour.

Eventually we're going to get our way to that.

But I'd like to start at 2:50.

And like I said, for me it's all in the bottle.

I have products that I say work for Me, I can't guarantee they're going to work for you, but this is what.

And I don't get anything if you try them.

But there, here is a list of different things you could look into and try.

I have just found that for me as somebody who does sweat a lot, I can get all of my sodium, all of my calories, all of my water in the bottles and I don't need to count on aid stations, I don't need to do it now.

I have had athletes who've ejected a high bottle and then that's a problem.

Right.

And so we talk, when we talk race plans, how are you going to adapt if that happens?

And we always have about backup plan but that, that's how I approach it.

I do also talk a lot about recovery nutrition and especially for my athletes who are interested in plant based.

We talk about how they can get adequate protein and things like that.

Yeah.

So yes, I have a number of athletes who put all of their nutrition in the bottle and that works really well for them.

And you're right, our own experience informs what we recommend, especially with new athletes.

One of the benefits I found with some like athletes in having some gel type or block type nutrition is it helps while away the time.

And so if every half an hour, every 15 minutes, they've got something to do to look forward to, that's that helps break up the race a little bit.

And then I also find with some athletes, and again this is informed by my own experience, I'll be the first to admit committing to getting an entire bottle or bottle and a half down every hour.

It's.

Sometimes it's just really hard, particularly if.

It'S cold or if it's hot like this weekend.

And it's tough to make your body digest it all.

So it can be both ways.

Yeah, yeah.

So those are factors.

Yeah.

I don't want to dwell too much because we have a list so I want to get on.

But I think that's a really a great example of how two coaches who've had a lot of successful athletes can come at this with different kind of base models of this and yet allow their athletes to navigate to whatever works for them.

Because that in the end we're.

Neither one of us is particularly dogmatic about this.

No, not dogmatic.

The only thing we're dogmatic about is you have to eat on the bike.

There is no choice.

The bike is the best.

You gotta get the calories in.

Yeah.

The bike is, the bike is the buffet.

And then before we move on to nutrition.

You know the question about sort of day to day nutrition again, I never would never pretend to be a registered dietitian or nutritionist, but a lot of times especially women will ask, how are you getting in your protein?

How what are you?

Especially women who are working full time jobs like how do you manage to get, how do you manage to fuel throughout, throughout the day?

And I find this particularly true for doctors who are just crazy busy all day.

And so I will go through again, this is what I do.

Be boring, be, be, eat the same thing every day.

If you find something that works for breakfast and lunch, do it five days a week.

If you like it and it's good for you, just repeat it.

So I tend to go down the rabbit hole a little bit just to give some ideas because sometimes people just haven't thought, oh yeah, that's a good idea, I should try that.

It's easy, it's portable, you can even plan it out.

Just for the day to day stuff.

Yeah.

Athletes will frequently come to me and I know they come to you as well with questions, especially if they're new to the sport about gear.

Julia, when athletes come to you with these gear choices, let's assume that they have the basics.

They've got their wetsuit, they've got their bike, they've got their running shoes.

But now they're coming to you and they say, look, I feel like I've got some money burning a hole in my pocket.

I want to be a better triathlete.

What would be the three things that you would tell.

Tell them that they should consider buying to be a better triathlete.

It's a great question and I know both of us come up, get faced with this all the time.

I think that it depends a little bit.

But if the athlete is technologically a dwat and they're not afraid of technology and they, they feel like they can utilize it, a power meter is a great investment.

And now they're less and less expensive if an AF.

Likewise, smart trainers have now come well down to 500 bucks as opposed to a couple years ago they were over 1100.

And smart trainers are a fantastic way to get an efficient workout in all throughout, throughout the week, Monday through Friday when you have limited time.

So if I have an athlete who comes with me with a bike, wetsuit, running shoes, I am asking about first of all, smart trainer.

That would be the number one thing.

And then I would feel it out a little bit if not a power meter because that's too big to give an ask cadence sensor is 30 bucks.

That's a great tool for outdoor rides.

Heart rate monitor is 140 bucks.

That's a great tool for all for both sports for run and bike.

Those would be the things that I would go to.

If it was an athlete who already had a TT bike, already had a smart trainer, already had a power meter, I would probably say the next thing would be like a better helmet.

Right.

We know that those, if we're beginning to get into that, those sort of margins.

So it depends a lot on where the athlete is.

What about you?

Yeah, meeting them where they are.

I think that's really important point for most of my beginner athletes.

I will agree with you a hundred percent.

Trainer, smart trainer, number one purchase.

Because while it does, it's a big ticket item, but in terms of bang for the buck, it's huge.

I do advocate very strongly for power meters.

I know, I believe that.

I think power meter because if you're going to train with power on the trainer, it's really nice to have that feedback when you're outside riding as well.

So I think power meters are even less expensive than trainers.

I think think they're great.

And then I'll go for the aero helmet.

I think that in terms of results, the aero helmet's big, but this is assuming they have a watch.

And more and more I'm finding athletes come to me that are using Apple watches and I hesitate to tell them to go buy a watch.

But the Apple watch is fine in a lot of respects, especially the newer ones, but it's really not designed to do what we know the Garmin watches can do what the, with the Coros or whatever.

There are a lot of other models that will do a lot of lot better.

I hesitate to tell them to immediately do that, but I've had many athletes who work with the Apple watches and over time I'm hinting that yeah, it's not really giving the best data.

And eventually when they do make the purchase of a Garmin or whatever, they do immediately recognize that.

Oh yeah, I see the difference.

Yeah, no, it is, they do, they go, they trickle along for a while using the Apple watch.

And Apple Elise does play nice now with trainee Peaks.

It didn't used to and, but trading after a few months they begin to see, oh yeah, I'll be able to see laps easier.

I'll be able to see results easier.

It'll.

Yeah, it's.

Yeah, it's a big device, but not for triathlon.

And I'm like you, I really try to make people wait on things.

I do not want athletes to go buy a TT bike, especially in their first year of the sport.

I don't want them to spend money on wheels for that.

In terms of the return on investment, it's just not worth it.

Now, there are some athletes who come to you and they're very well off and they have the disposable income and they really want the marginal gains they're going to get with those things.

And who am I to say no?

So in that case, sure, I, I will.

But I'll be very straight up and say, look, those things are not going to make you as fast as just putting in the training, but they will look great.

And there's nothing like the sound of a disc wheel rolling down.

Yeah.

All right, let's move to the next topic, which I know is a personal favorite of yours and mine too.

I harp on it quite a bit.

How do you help your athletes with transitions?

What is your advice for them and what is your overall messaging for transitions?

I know that we are 100% aligned in believing that transitions are just free money.

It's just a money tree waiting to be ticked.

It takes no special talent to do a transition.

It just takes practice and planning.

So I know you and I both had the experience where we come out of the water, whatever, 20th or 20th or whatever it is, and all of a sudden we're third getting on the bike.

Right.

Because we're organized.

So transitions.

I actually teach a transition clinic every year.

I harp on this with my athletes for whom it matters.

If you're, if it's your first triathlon, it doesn't matter.

Have a latte.

In transition, it's all good.

But if you're beginning to get towards the place where you care about your overall all time, yes, transitions are free money.

It is about being organized.

It is about having a plan, it is about having a process.

It is about keeping it simple.

I ask athletes to practice their transitions.

I send them videos on what good transitions look like.

We have a couple now and just really asking them to think through it, particularly if they are a personality which has trouble with executive functioning, because that's really what transitions are all about and putting things in order and consistent.

I love your comment about how when you come out of the water and you're running to your transition, your IQ has dropped like 50 points.

A hundred percent.

Yeah, yeah, we always comment on that.

You got to keep it simple.

You got to keep it simple.

There should be no decisions made in transition.

Everything has already Been decided.

Yeah.

So transitions are so much fun when you get them right.

You feel like a rock star when you glide through transition quickly, it's just.

And, yeah, again, this takes no genetics.

This is genetics.

I have to tell you.

I have to tell you, I owe a huge thank you to our friend and my colleague on our sister podcast, Tempo, Matt Sharp.

I'm going to relay that to him this week when we record.

He gave me this great pro tip about cutting my wetsuit midway midway up the legs.

I had never heard this before.

Really?

And, yeah, never.

Nobody had ever mentioned it to me before.

And I got my wetsuit off so fast.

So fast.

Yeah.

I used to always go to the wetsuit strippers because I know how much it is a mighty struggle.

And now I was like, I was terrified to cut my wetsuit.

I cut my wetsuit.

Are you kidding?

I know.

There's.

Anyway, I cut my wetsuit and I got that thing off like butter, and it was wonderful.

Yeah.

Listen, we talked about how you mentioned how, look, if you're someone who time matters, honestly, time matters for everybody in this event.

If you're back of the pack, you don't want to miss the cutoffs.

Time matters.

So you really.

It takes so much effort to make your run faster, your bike, or your swim faster.

It takes very little effort to make your transition faster.

And I just tell my athletes all, all the time, think about what you need to do there and cut off half of it, because whatever you're doing there, that's taking you six minutes, if somebody else is having a transition of three, you're doing twice as much then does not need to be done.

So just figure it out.

And just now we've done our race.

And like, I just had some athletes that race this weekend.

We looked at their transition times.

They were great, all moved way up in transition.

But I think said, look, your time is still a couple minutes longer than some other people.

So let's think about what we did in there and let's think about how we can be faster next time.

And already we're coming up with little things, and so we make it a game.

We try to get that.

It's like 100%.

It's totally game down to zero.

Right?

Yeah.

I always tell my athletes it's four and three, right.

In T1, you need four things, and in T2, you need three things.

And even if your IQ is at half of its normal brilliance, you can remember four and three.

Right.

So in T1, you need your.

You're assuming your bike Shoes are on the ground.

You need your socks, your bike sheet, your helmet, and your glasses.

That's all you need.

Anything else, unless it's really cold, that's all you need.

And in T2, it's three things.

It's running shoes, a cap if you wear one, and your race belt.

That's it.

So anything more, you don't need sunscreen, you don't need nutrition, you don't need.

You don't need to go to the bathroom.

Just get through.

Yeah, yeah.

And I tell everybody, I'm like, listen, if you're running in your bike shoes, that's an easy win.

We have to teach you how to be able to mount the bike with your shoes and the pedals because that will save you a lot of time right there.

Yeah, yeah, that's.

That can be a tough skill for some people.

Yeah.

But it's a learnable one for sure.

Yeah.

Okay, let's move to the last of our topics.

And this is combined topic of communication and goals.

So I know both of us feel very strongly about being very communicative with our athletes, but we're a little bit different in that your main focus is your coaching.

Mine is I have multiple other things going on.

So you are really on top of training peaks.

You are watching for all the comments you're feeding back all the time.

I tell my athletes up front, that is just not something I'm able to do.

I will look at their comments, but I do respond in a different way.

What is your philosophy about communication?

How much is too much from athletes and how do you.

You over all like, what's your overarching sort of theme about communication when you talk to athletes in terms of how, what do you tell them what to expect?

So what I tell my athletes in terms of their communication with me is that I read every single thing they say on training peaks.

I try to look at all of my athletes files every night so that I can keep up.

So I feel like I'm always within 24 or 36 hours of what they're doing.

So if something comes up, up, I can address it.

But as you say, I do this full time, so it's a little bit of a different rhythm.

The I prefer that athletes, if they have larger questions, will email me because email sits in your inbox until it is addressed, whereas texts disappear down the phone and once that blue dot is gone, it's gone.

And I hate it when I miss texts and athletes feel overlooked when I miss texts, et cetera.

So email preferred text if it's the same day if it's a question from that same same day.

Training Peaks is wonderful because keeps a record of the conversation and yes, I do look at files very frequently.

I also will have calls with my athletes, particularly before a big event like their A event or if they have a couple of 70.3s or whatever it is in a year, we'll have a a scheduled call, zoom call during that time.

If I haven't heard from athletes for a long time and I feel like it's been months and months, I'll say, hey, give me a life update.

What's happening with work?

What's happening you at home?

Is there anything I should know about?

How's your body feeling?

Particularly if they don't communicate regularly over training week.

So every athlete's a little bit different and I do recognize that some are over communicators.

A couple athletes have had to say, okay, I really prefer that you move this conversation to email because this is a lot of texts and I just can't stay on top of it.

So I've certainly had to have that conversation a couple times.

And they're very respectful.

And some people just like texting more and, and then, and some athletes leave volumes on Training Peaks and some, some athletes you hear barely hear anything from training people.

So I like my app.

I like to know.

I like to feel like I'm on top of my athletes training all the time.

And I like my athletes to feel like I'm very much in their corner and I am in touch with what is going on with their athletic lives.

So that's how I look at it.

Yeah.

And I know from my own experience as an athlete with coaches over the years that I prefer a coach who is looking and who is communicating and who is accessible.

I've had too many times where I will reach out to a coach with a question and not hear anything back for days.

And that I always found not.

Okay.

So I have told my athletes that I will always respond.

If you need something right away, text me.

I will respond ASAP.

If it can wait 24 hours, send me an email.

And then in lieu of looking at Training Peaks every night, I promise them all I I look, but I may not comment as often as possible.

And then every weekend I send a video to every athlete telling them what I saw in the week past to let them know that I am looking and following and making sure everything looks good and then describing what's coming in the week ahead.

So I try and find that balance between what you're able to do and what I'm able to do and keep the athletes happy.

And so far, I think that everybody has been pretty happy.

But I'm very interested in what the listeners think and what they.

What their experiences are with their coaches and what they like.

And I know that we have a range of listeners who have coaches from a wide variety of different backgrounds, and some of them are themselves coaches.

So please go over to the Facebook group and let's have a conversation, because I know Juliet and I are fascinated to hear how you work with your athletes and how you work with your coaches and what has been successful for all, all of you.

I want to see now you program your athletes a week at a time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'll do four.

I'll do four weeks at a time because I like to have a little bit of a bigger picture.

And I also like my athletes to be able to plan ahead so they know what's coming.

And not all athletes look that far ahead.

They.

Some athletes are day by day, but I think a lot of them do appreciate the larger block.

So, again, the cat.

I have thought many times about doing it, like, two weeks at a time, and I actually don't see.

Think that would be a big problem.

I think actually it would probably be easier to.

But I just know my own life changes on a dime.

And so I have just felt like my athletes frequently also come up and things have changed.

And so rather than me having to go in and change something that I scheduled three weeks ago, I'd rather have the flexibility to change it as I'm doing it.

But either way, I think, yeah, if somebody asks me to schedule more than one week at a time, I do.

Sure.

The last thing I want to talk about is just goals, and this kind of dovetails on the communication.

And that is when an athlete comes to us, they frequently do.

Athletes will come to us.

When we start as part of our initial conversation, what are your goals for this sport?

What are your goals for this race?

And sometimes those goals are not necessarily in alignment with what we, as a coach who has experience think is maybe the best idea.

So give us an example of something like that you've encountered and how you handle Loud Juliet.

So we were talking about this before the call.

I think that often these.

This falls into two categories.

One is an athlete states a goal, and you've looked at their training experience or their racing experience, and it just may not be within their ability set, but they don't know that.

And that might be because it's not in their ability set.

And it may also be because they're so new to the sport that they just don't know.

They have no idea that they're.

No, they're not going to be able to run 8 minutes off the bike in their very first 70.3 if they're traditionally running 13 minutes per mile or whatever it is.

They just don't know.

And so that's one sort of bucket.

And then the other bucket is that perhaps an athlete is more experienced and they have somewhat realistic goals towards a performance at a particular A event.

But what they haven't figured out is the volume or the intensity that they have have to achieve during their training to reach that goal and how that's going to fit into this particular chapter of their life, whether it's professional or children or whatever it is.

And that is, that's quite hard because that is only learned over a few weeks or a few months into it.

And you watch an athlete be unsuccessful at training sessions, that should be successful.

And then it.

That's just, that's really tough.

Tough because you have to have an ongoing conversation of, okay, if I understand this is still the goal and if this is the goal, let's either adjust the goal or let's look at your life and whether this is a feasible goal for this year.

And then the final thing I'll say on that, cause I know you have a lot to say on this as well, is that I often immediately try to pivot, particularly newer athletes into process goals as opposed to achievement goals, because they say, oh, I want to be top five in my age group or I want to be top 20% or I want to be whatever.

And that, yes, that's a lot to do with your own preparation.

But it also depends who shows up.

You can't control who shows up at an event, whether it's local or international, and you can't, you can't control what shape they show up in.

And so you've got to be more focused on your own process goals.

How do you want to show up at that race?

What kind of fitness and strength do you want to show up in?

What are your times that you're hoping for rather than how that's going to be relevant to everybody else.

That's what it boils down to, I think when the goals aren't in sync with what we think they should be for the athlete, it's purely a reflection of experience difference.

It's like our level of experience versus theirs.

And either an athlete will come with, oh, I my Goal for my first Ironman is to qualify for Kona or my goal for my first half Ironman is to go sub five or to be top five in my age group or whatever.

It's not that they are necessary necessarily.

Maybe they're a super athlete, right?

Yeah, right.

I think it's just that they just aren't.

They don't have experience in the sport like we do.

And so it's just.

And I always, I'm very careful to not talk them and say immediately pooh, pooh that goal, but instead say that's a wonderful goal.

But I think instead maybe we should focus on that as a long term or maybe a secondary goal and instead focus on some other things that we can control.

Like sub 5 is, is really.

The people just have no idea how hard sub 5 is.

And when I tell them something like it took me 10 years in the sport to get sub 5, they're.

They don't understand.

Like they just think that, oh, because you're, you never.

Maybe there's something to that.

Right?

Maybe you only need to be in the sport for two races.

That's very possible.

But the reality is that it's really hard and they don't understand what's involved with doing it.

And I get it and that's totally fine.

So like you, I focus very much on process goals, very much on things like, hey, let's target this kind of power for a race, let's target this kind of pacing, let's target getting our nutrition, things like that.

And I found, I have found that meets invariably with a positive response and people immediately pivot to being able to accept that.

And we say, hey, I'm not taking away that Kona qualification.

We're going to keep that.

No, because if we do all those other things, hey, Kona qualification might just be in the the cards.

So we just don't want that to be the primary goal because that's something that like you said, we can't necessarily control.

Can be really disappointing if we don't get it.

And yet there might still be so many things to celebrate on that day.

I mean there's, yeah, any, pretty much any race performance, even the worst ones.

There are some wins in there somewhere.

And sometimes as an athlete yourself, sometimes it's really hard to find those wins when you haven't had the day that you expected.

And sometimes it takes someone on the outside saying, okay, hang on, yes, this didn't go as expected or as hoped, but these things did.

And there's all so much stuff happens in a 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12, 14 hour, 18 hour race and there's just so much learning every time.

And I know that sounds trite or whatever, but it's true.

And then we're just applying that to the next one.

Yeah, this has been a great conversation.

I've enjoyed it.

It's been very wide ranging and I think it's been, I don't know, I think we've covered a lot of ground and I think I'm saying the same thing in multip format.

So I guess that's being redundant for a change.

Look, we're of course interested in what you thought, so please do give us some feedback.

Let us know if this is something you enjoyed.

If you want to hear even more on this kind of subject, we'd be happy to come back and talk even more about coaching because it's something that we both really enjoy.

And like I said, we definitely want to hear from you who are coaches and from you who are athletes who have coaches about the things that you like and the things that you have found over the years that maybe rubbed you the wrong way.

It's all definitely fodder for future discussions.

Juliet, I really appreciate the conversation.

We will record the medical mailbag next week, although for everybody else it will have come out.

They will have heard it before them.

Exactly.

And of course, I'll see you at another segment another time soon.

Thank you so much for joining me for this talk.

Thank you.

Jeff.

Hi, my name is Justin Rayfield.

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