Money and economics are just so important because when we're financially sound, we feel safe, we feel secure, we feel empowered. We feel like we have control and we have more freedom and autonomy. I see in my practice, women who, maybe are single and they just don't really focus on these kinds of things or women who are not in good partnerships. They get compromised or hobbled, with not being knowledgeable about these things or they get stuck or they lose their own sense of power in the relationship. And so I think it really is important for women to look and to learn and to face these issues.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to Orange Hatter. My mission for the Orange Hatter podcast is that after tuning in and hearing about everyday women's stories and their path to Bitcoin, you'd think, Hey, if Bitcoin made a difference for them, maybe it could do the same for me. I'm so glad you're here. And I know you're going to love today's episode. Welcome.

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Hi Vivian. Welcome to Orange Hatter. Thank you so much for spending time with us tonight.

Thank you so much for having me. This is very exciting.

Let's start by talking a little bit about your background.

Sure. Yeah. I'm a clinical psychologist and I have my own private practice. And I see a pretty diverse client, population working with people with a variety of different issues, depression, anxiety. I try to use an integrative approach with people like including healthy lifestyles into the interventions or the treatments that I do with them having that nice mind body, balance and overall good health as the way that I tend to work with people.

Cool. So let's dive right into Bitcoin. When did you first come across this weird thing called Bitcoin?

Yeah. And I guess it was probably about 13 years ago. my husband has been actively involved in it for that amount of time in terms of just studying Bitcoin, investing making connections in the community, like going to conferences and meetup groups and thinking about ways to promote it from a business perspective and supporting, All those who are trying to bring it more, mainstream and I've just had this Cursory, understanding and involvement in it. I've been, because I've been raising kids and I've just been developing my own business and anything to do with money is not my preference. I don't really, it's not my go to. I have a lot of anxiety about money. But I, found it to be really interesting. I do listen to podcasts on occasions and I check the Bitcoin prices and I get when it goes up and sometimes, read articles. And, when I see that new businesses are, open to, accepting Bitcoin, I think that's really cool. And like seeing other countries adopting it. I have an interest in it but I've been dipping my toe in it, maybe waiting a little bit, but not taking the full plunge yet. And, but it's something that I do find it's really interesting and really exciting and just to see how the, community has just grown and developed and I think it's really cool. And I love, the idea of your podcast and especially talking to women about their experiences with it. I think it's really awesome. Yeah.

You mentioned that you feel anxious about money. I think that's something a lot of women probably share. Can you elaborate a little bit about that and maybe just look at it from your professional point of view? What might be the cause and how we should deal with that.

Yeah I know just personally for me, it's one, like I said, I. I'm not a numbers type of person. Like I don't, I don't really like looking at numbers, but I think just money. I don't think, in, in growing up, I had a really good I don't know, schooling about money. My mother would spend money very well. And she would give you the shirt off of her back. And, with my dad, he was much more I don't know. I guess I wouldn't really say he was conservative because he would buy things that he really liked. But there was always tension around, money and finances, even though as a family, you know, my parents did fairly well. And I just feel like I just was never fully educated into saving or how to invest in money. and it's not really having any problems with money but just it just a lot of anxiety, around it. Both my husband, I have our own businesses and During the Obama years we pay our taxes, but we were like hit with like when you're like 6, 000 extra we'd owe and then 8, 000 extra we owed. And it was just very stressful. And you're like, okay, where's, this coming from? I guess it must have been around the. 2008, you know, where things were happening in the economy. And I think having also one's own business that you have to think about money and you have to learn about money and be careful with your money. And you are more aware of when your money is being taken from you with taxes and things like that. Where for example, I have a lot of friends who work For big companies or they work for the government and they don't, I don't think that they, at least in my experience, have the same worries or anxieties that I do. There's always feels like there's much more of a safety net. And when you have your own business, you don't have that. And you have to just be, you see the flow of things coming in and going out. And so you do have to be much more aware and mindful about money. And yeah, I definitely feel the stress of it. And, I definitely see it in the work that I do with my clients where and I think it's something that's not really talked about but I look at financial stress and anxiety is as a big component of anxiety. And, I often see it in my clients. Especially now with, inflation and and sometimes people, having to worry about, their jobs or they're not getting the raises that are deserved and people having to deal with this. And so I, I think that there is a lot of anxiety when it comes to, thinking about, money. And I think that the idea and what Bitcoin represents Hopefully can give people a little bit more peace of mind with that.

You mentioned that your husband has been in the Bitcoin space for quite a while. In the beginning when he became so actively involved and you were busy building up your business and raising your kids. What did you think about Bitcoin?

know, it's I think I thought it was very, I didn't, I don't even know what I thought. I thought it was strange. I thought, oh, is this a scam? Is this a, I don't know. I don't know. I don't. I don't know. I just didn't know what it was. I was just like, I don't really know. But I would, listen and I would watch and, we have a good relationship. So I, trust him in terms of, the things that he's pursuing and he's doing. So I listened and would watch things but it, probably took a good, I said 13 years, it's probably been like 10 years where I was not really paying attention or involved in probably over, I would say over the last three to five years, I've been more paying more attention and doing more self study on my own.

Okay, in your practice, you're seeing clients coming in with anxiety issues and a lot of it has to do what's going on in the world today. Financial stress inflation, et cetera. How do you coach your clients in dealing with what they cannot change?

I think with anxiety, right? Like when something is really threatening to us that it's either fight flight or freeze. Sometimes we're just like, oh, I don't know what this is. I don't know what to do. And we just freeze because we don't know how to handle it. Sometimes. We stick our head in the sand I don't want to look, I don't want to know, I don't want to think about it. But the best thing that we can do is to face it and to deal with it. So part of it is getting my clients to actually look at what the problem is and to try to best prepare and how to best Protect themselves and utilize resources that they have, maybe ask for supports if needed being willing to sacrifice. Like sometimes you have to let some things go in order to move forward. So all of that I think is part of dealing with that anxiety. To actually to look and to pay attention and to gather information that's going to help you to move forward and face whatever it is that you have to face and also to recognize that there may be some sacrifices that you have to make in that process. You may have to let some things go that you don't necessarily want to let go of.

Okay, so let's say hypothetically, I am a retiree and I have whatever retirement income I have, social security or some kind of private something. And I'm watching the purchasing power of the same amount of money I'm receiving every month go down and I'm filled with anxiety because I'm afraid there's gonna come a day when I'm not gonna have enough And there's nothing for me to fall back on. How do you coach someone in that state? I'm trying to visualize how they can work through that and help themselves from your point of view

Yeah and I think that from a professional standpoint, first, of course, is acknowledging sort of the challenges of that. And then, trying to put supports and supports. Again, like letting some things go like that, that you're going to have to make some changes. You're going to have to adjust. You're not going to be able to be living exactly as you were living. And so trying to figure out, okay what are the priorities? What are the things that I can let go of? And then what are also, are there other places that I can get, supports? And I think, that would be a way from a, psychological perspective that I would work with them. Now, I can't, professionally suggest Bitcoin to people but I think that's the interesting thing about, Bitcoin, right? Is that it's a way for people to invest and also to Secure some of the money that they have.

I think With enough time, yes, if you're talking about money that you need to use immediately, then it's risky because it is still very volatile. But I do know that I don't know I'm assuming if I'm literally that person I just described, and I have spent my entire life with a certain set of expectations. I work hard, I put money away, I retire and I live in Florida. You were talking about. Making changes, necessary changes, in the face of what's happening in our system today in our society today with inflation, etc. I think a lot of people would find it very difficult to change their picture of what retirement should look like. I know that. My mom expected her retirement years to be a certain way. And if you're trying to tell her that she can't live in the house that she was planning to live out her life in, that's You're forcing, you're almost forcing her to change her reality. So how do you coach somebody who's in that situation where they must change the way they see things or see what is absolutely necessary for themselves as a, as something different, with a different set of, I don't even know, like parameters.

I think that those that expectations are that, that is a component of anxiety too. It's like when we feel like we're not meeting our own expectations or the other, or the expectations of others, or the expectations of life, we get really anxious. Like we have this vision of how things should be. And it's not happening. And that creates a lot of anxiety. And so part of it is, reevaluating things and trying to have realistic expectations for where we are right now. And a lot of times with anxiety, people are either thinking about past things, or they're worrying about the future and they're bouncing back and forth. So you have to we all have to be a little bit more in the now and the present. Okay. And what is actually happening now? And, do a reality check and having realistic expectations, like those things that we wanted, or we expected. They're not going to happen. And we have to be in the now and another component of anxiety is uncertainty. So if we don't know what's going to happen, we get really anxious, and particularly now in a world that's changing and everything is. We feel like the rug's been pulled out from under it's very, anxiety provoking time. And there's a lot of uncertainty. but, uncertainty doesn't necessarily have to be a negative thing. It can be, exciting. It can also be good and anxiety leads people to be also more pessimistic or negative. So trying to, look for the good things or look for the things that are positive is really important. But I think you're right. It's very hard to change those expectations or those things are the ways that we think that life is supposed to be. It's very difficult because when we are coming out of that, there's also grief. Like it's sad, it's sad that we had invested in so much and we had wanted so much, or we expect, and then, these things aren't gonna happen. And so sometimes people are hit with grief on top of that. So it's very challenging.

Yeah. That grief component That was the word that I wasn't able to actually pin down, but that's absolutely true I think for a lot of people, there is grief in the financial situation they find themselves today. So we Bitcoiners like to say that Bitcoin is hope and the hope means that it's in the future. So how do you balance that? If you live in the now in today's reality, Bitcoin is still a very volatile asset class. It's not yet the money standard that we hope it to be and yet if we live in the present, I'm just trying to think of um, can you give some practical tips for people who are feeling anxious about what's happening and Coping with it today without Necessarily looking in the future to Bitcoin as hope.

I think that this is the time of sacrifice that a lot of times, again, when we're about to make a change, there's things that we have to give up, we have to sacrifice. And it's hard. And again, doing a reality check of This isn't what I thought it was going to be. this will be a hard time. It's temporary, but I may need to, cut back on things. I may need to, utilize the resources that I do have checking the resources you do have and trying to utilize, what you have. Right now. And then the other piece of it in order to change is we have to take risks and we have to be willing to take a risk. And so there is a risk in investing in something like Bitcoin. it may be scary for a lot of people because it's not something that's, familiar or known. It's something that, there's, it's, A lot of naysayers out there about it. You're you may be doing things differently than your family or your friends are. But in order to change again sometimes we have to sacrifice things and we have to take a little bit of a risk in order to move in order for things to be different. And when we're going to move into something, we can either jump in with both feet yeah, I'm going to go all in. Or the other thing you can do is you can, it can be gradual change. So maybe you like. Okay well, I'm just going to invest a little bit and I'm going to watch and I'm going to see how that goes. And then you feel a little bit more comfortable and you're talking to more people or you're seeing and maybe you're like, you're watching things change. Like you're seeing new businesses open. In, in terms of taking Bitcoin or you're seeing another country. Okay. He's okay this is moving. It's there's things happening. It's growing that, and that gives you a little bit more confidence. Okay. Maybe I'll, invest. A little bit more and that's going to help, I think in terms of feeling, hope also in seeing that things are changing that things are happening you can even see it, I think in the political spectrum, there are some candidates out there that are, open to Bitcoin. I think that's pretty cool too. Cool. But that's, that's part of the process of change. And, I think circling back you know, I always talk with clients about the impetus for change. What's the reason to do something so for example, if somebody is going to, I don't know, try to lose weight or something like that. And what I find in this is just my own way of thinking about it. I don't know if anybody else thinks it this way, but I think that sometimes we do things. Either like for the love of ourselves. So it could be, for vanity. So maybe like people just want to have money or maybe it could be because, I want to secure, my own future or Or it could be the love of somebody else. And why I want to do this for my kids, or maybe because I saw somebody else do it and they had benefits to it. So it's either the love of self or the love of others, or there's a crisis. So sometimes like a crisis is an impetus for change. Like, Oh, wow. I lost all of my my other investments. So I'm going to try Bitcoin now. Like That's, or, the government took all my money. So I'm gonna I want to find a secure way to invest. There's a crisis that happens. And that will be the impetus for change. But for some people, even a crisis isn't going to be an impetus for change. So it's like somebody who's a smoker and they're on, they got emphysema and they're on a machine and they're still smoking and they're really sick, but they're still going to keep doing it. So there's going to be some people that don't necessarily buy into it. And then I think so there's the impetus for change like, why am I doing this? What's important to me? And then there's the process of change and. At first we may not even know we need to change or do anything differently. And then we may be like, Oh, I need to do something differently in terms of my investments. And so you start, you're sitting on the fence and you're gathering information. And so maybe it is, you're listening to podcasts. Maybe you're talking to somebody who's already invested in Bitcoin, or you go to a meetup group. And then when you have enough information and you feel comfortable, then you make a move. So you may decide, okay, I'm going to invest a little bit on it, and so you gradually get into it. So I think, there is a process. For change and it can either be gradual or again, you can jump in with both feet. Change is also hard and there's a lot of resistance to it. Most people don't like to change because as I said, there's a sacrifice. So it's time okay, I have to invest this time and learning about this, or I'm going to have to move money over to invest in Bitcoin. And again, it's scary and I'm doing it differently than other people. And people may judge me for it. And so trying to Get out of our own way. In, in terms of, thinking about, okay, what are the roadblocks, are important and to have some confidence and, and just takes and be willing to take a little bit of a risk is important. And I, and I think, like the other thing, like I think about too, is that, particularly for women, and this is why I'm so glad that you're doing this podcast is that money and economics are just so important because when we're financially sound, we feel safe, we feel secure. We feel empowered. We feel like we have control and we have more freedom and autonomy. And that's why, being financially sound and knowledgeable, it's just so important, especially for women. And, cause I see in my practice, women who, maybe are single and they just don't really focus on these kinds of things or women who are not in good partnerships. And then they, get compromised or hobbled, with not being knowledgeable about these things or they get stuck or they lose their own sense of, power in the relationship. And so I think it really is important for women to look and to learn and to face these issues, which I'm on the cusp of doing myself great. I'm grateful. I have a good partner who shares everything with me. He, he, we talk about it and he's this is ours and, which is, it's very good. But for some women that's not the case and they end up getting stuck or they're in a very, poor financial situation. And this is why it's so important for women to learn about these things. Like I had a friend who was telling me a story about a woman that she knew. Who, and she didn't, my friend doesn't know a lot about Bitcoin. And I was talking to her a little bit about what I knew. And she was telling me about this other woman who discovered that her husband. And she was the breadwinner of the family actually, but she trusted her husband and he took a lot of money out of her savings. And he said that he got scammed by Bitcoin but he wanted a divorce. And I said, that's really weird. Like I was like, I don't understand how it could be scammed by Bitcoin. And then it hit me. I was like, he took that money and invested in Bitcoin. So she couldn't get it. And this is what my hypothesis is. I don't know if it's true or not, but this woman had no awareness that is something that could even be possible. And so she believed that she was being scammed, but no, he actually stole her money, and this kind of stealing of money, whether it's in a relationship or whether it's government or, whatever it is. I think as women, we need to be, again, aware of our finances and Bitcoin's a great way to have some security and I guess these are just things that I think about.

Yeah, I homeschooled and Scott and I from the very beginning felt like we were exceptionally unprepared for real life, even though we both graduated from brand name schools, because we didn't know the fundamentals of what you just mentioned. We knew how to have a checking account. This is decades ago, of course. We knew how to balance our checkbooks. You don't have to do that today, but we knew how to balance our checkbooks. We knew that you could put money in the mutual fund in the stock market itself, but we didn't really understand how money worked. And like you said, in a healthy household we divide and conquer, right? We have women generally would take care of the house and men generally will work and take care of the finances. But like you said, things change. And you don't necessarily have to be in an unhealthy relationship to be in a situation where you need to know this stuff. And so I wish that schools today would prepare our young people for the realities of life, like those things, like they're really super practical stuff, instead of studying a bunch of things that are philosophical and conceptual. I understand why we need to study history. But if I had to choose one, to learn how money works versus memorizing a bunch of dates and wars and names of kings and queens and generals. I would rather they learn the practicalities of what money is and how to take care of it throughout their lifetime.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And also just it helps to prepare, like if there's, again, if there's a crisis or if there's an unexpected, you need to know what, what to do and how to, and just to protect yourself. It's the best way to protect yourself. And as you said, oftentimes we're not really educated. And even as a psychologist, there were no. Doing business classes or, in terms of running a business as a psychologist, all things, I had to learn. And I had to figure it out. I'm better for it. I still don't like it. It's not my, it's not my favorite. It's not my go to, I just, I really like working with people and, but I think it's important. It's. Because it does provide us with all those things like safety, security, control, freedom, autonomy. Yeah, it's very important.

I also found it really interesting that you mentioned When you and your husband were running your two separate businesses, you felt the pain of the money going out of your account, running a business because you see it. Running a business is such a emotional rollercoaster and you're solely responsible. You have no safety net. You are it. How your business does, how much money comes in every month. You are it. And then to see it so casually taken out of your account, either through taxes or fees or whatever license or Local, I don't even know what to call those things like there are so many requirements that fall under fees that you have to pay on top of

Yes.

income tax and all of that stuff like you really Feel the pain of that going out versus somebody who's getting a paycheck where everything has already been taken out. So they don't like it. They don't get to see that part. They just see what they take home and they feel the pain a little bit less. I definitely am experiencing that now. Scott and I running our own business, our first time in our lives because he for his whole career was corporate, and I love this analogy. Somebody said if your income is visible and physical and sitting in a wagon outside your house. This is your harvest. And you see how much is taken out of that wagon or how little you get to keep yourself. You get angry, but we don't get

it's infuriating. I agree with you. It's infuriating. And I find it, it's very interesting because I have a lot of friends that, that either they or their husbands, work in in corporate or government jobs and lovely people but not really seeing those effects, and I look at people who are really struggling, and I think that when you work in those kinds of environments, you don't have that same level of awareness, as the person who, I don't know, owns the restaurant or, it's just a very different Experience and and it's, it is anxiety provoking also what's going on right now in terms of just our economy. It just is. It just is, but yeah.

Would you be okay with us talking about maybe some of the kids that you see in terms of what they feel anxious about? Cause I feel like there's an epidemic of anxious children these days.

Yeah. I work less with younger kids nowadays. I do see a couple of adolescents and a few, college students and they're Worried about jobs and they're worried about whether or not that they can own a house. And a lot of them, at least in the area that I live in, their parents are very well to do and they want to be able to have the same things that their parents had but don't think that they're going to be able to get it. And they're worried about student debt student loans. And I don't think they're prepared, I don't think that they're prepared. And so I think, having kids and adolescents and college students learn about Bitcoin, I think is really important,

It's a balancing act between depressing them Too much and giving them hope so depressing them about what's happening today and the hope in Bitcoin

Yes. Yes.

Okay, so let's talk about how Bitcoin has affected you personally in a practical way. So I know that as a whole family, you guys have been in the Bitcoin space for a while, but for yourself, you mentioned that you started paying attention only three to five years ago. So since you started paying attention. How has it changed the way you maybe live practically or just in the way that you view life in general?

I think it's an ongoing process, right? cause I think you get used to also living a certain way and also relying on what is the norm. But, as I said I see hope in that. Just in looking at more, it's very simple, but I think just seeing, businesses. Being open to Bitcoin, seeing bank machines with Bitcoin seeing, again, some candidates that are very supportive of Bitcoin, I think is important and seeing, just on the world stage that other countries are beginning to use it. It's very exciting. It's very exciting. I still, in my mind, I'm like, how is all this going to work? But it's still, but yeah, so it's neat. And it, in reality, it has been a roller coaster, but I think that's okay, too. That's also how life is. It's not always stable, but I think it's positive because it's growth. And I think, when we see what's happening to our, traditional money, situation with all the debt that countries have and the spending that's going on that I think it's a Great safety net.

And you mentioned that you have children. How are you and your husband transferring your Bitcoin knowledge to them? Are they open to it?

They're teenagers. Our teenagers and, sometimes kids aren't always in line with, what their parents are. They, they can listen. I think they're interested, but they also make fun of us, as well to uh, o it's like, oh, yeah, Bitcoin. But then they're really curious. They are like, how much Bitcoin do you have? We're not going to tell you. We don't need to talk about that, so I think there's a curiosity there, but they're waiting, to see, and I think it will be my two, actually all of my kids, including my youngest had a job at 14 for a while and so they're also learning about money. And so they're having to. Yeah. You know, they're already complaining, but I don't want to have to pay taxes. And, there's some anxiety, I think, or worry they have about money as well. And so we're trying to educate them and talking about spending, saving and investing in different ways to do that. And, including Bitcoin, I think that's, part of our job as parents to try to help them to be financially sound and responsible.

What about the rest of your family? Are you able to share Bitcoin with them?

Big sigh. We have not been successful at I don't think anyway, in terms of having family adopt Bitcoin. We have not. I know what I would say is my sister, I think, regrets not investing earlier. She may have been, I haven't really talked with her about it. I know she has some friends that have invested in it, so she may at this point have, invested somewhat in it, but it's, I think it's a big change for people. It's very different and it's hard for people to go to do things differently, but that's growth, when you can really go against the norm, that's courageous. No. And and it's exciting. So

Okay. So let's do a psychoanalysis. When we talk to people who are in a position where the monetary system hasn't disappointed them. It's worked out for them and their identity is wrapped up in the results of their effort that have worked out for them. How do we talk to them about Bitcoin without attacking their identity that's wrapped up in all of that?

that's a really good question. That's a really good question. I think that, messaging is like in order also to get other people to change. A lot of times we have to repeat the message in several different ways at different times. Before people are willing to hear it. You know what I mean? Also just because we voice things. Again it offers an impetus for change, but it's not a guarantee you can try to, educate people, but it may not be. I don't know, it may not be worth it for them to change. You know what I mean? Maybe and that circles back to what's the impetus for change what would be the reason for them to change? And it may not be possible for some people, unless, you can find what would really motivate them. Like maybe for some people, it might be well, you could actually, lose less money or make more money or, whatever. Maybe that's it. Or maybe it's well, it's going to benefit you in this way. Or maybe they see that it's been beneficial to you. Maybe that would be that they're like, oh, okay. Maybe I'll try that. It's hard to know what is going to cause people to other people to change or maybe it's their own crisis. I think that all you can really do is you can try to. Talk about, but some people, they're not going to care. everybody has their things that they prioritize or that is important to them. And so I don't think I can't even think of what the magic would be that would get somebody to to be interested in, or to get it, I don't know, and maybe it would take just more people doing it, where it becomes more of a norm and people like, oh, okay this is happening. So I'll invest now as it becomes more of a norm, because I think it is really hard for people to do things differently than what other people, or to be more, Independent or it's not an easy thing to do because you get judged. I

That is so true. Okay. Any last recommendations to women who are still sitting on the fence about Bitcoin?

I think it's just, continue to talk to people and learn about it and, consider making a little bit of a sacrifice, whether it's that time of learning about it or investing a little bit of money and just seeing what it's like, what does it feel like just to have a little bit of Bitcoin, maybe that will feel good. Maybe it'll reassure you. Maybe you'll find it fun watching it go up and seeing things open up. They go. There's another store that's accepting Bitcoin. Awesome. Yeah.

Great. Thank you so much. That was really fun. I really enjoyed your professional diagnosis

Thank you. is. Like watching, it is it's exciting like it's very and this is one last thing I want to say, with just all the craziness that's going on right now and just the inflation and it's so horrible. It's just horrible, and stressful, but the idea of something new and something different working is really exciting. It's really, cause we need something new. Cause it's not working right now. And I think. That's exciting. That's very exciting. So thank you so much, Tali. It was fun.

Thank you for listening to this episode. Did you enjoy it? Wasn't our guest absolutely fabulous. I just love every woman's story on this show. Everybody has a unique perspective and yet, we all come to the same place, which is Bitcoin is an important part of our lives. If this story has inspired you and you would like to know more, go to www.orangehatter.com. Get involved. Join and our reading group, send me an email and introduce yourself. I will be so happy to hear from you. The best way you can support this show is to spread the word Tell every woman, you know, to listen in. You never know how they will be impacted by these stories. I appreciate you so much. See you next time. Bye.