1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,880
Back with another conversation about DEI, about diversity, equity, inclusion.

2
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:12,440
And it's a big topic these days because it is under attack in the United States and
elsewhere around the world.

3
00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:14,500
And there has been a backlash to it.

4
00:00:14,500 --> 00:00:27,070
And I think a lot of the backlash has been caused because people who have not been
marginalized have felt shame and have been asked to feel shame and have been asked.

5
00:00:27,070 --> 00:00:32,565
to examine their privilege and do things that don't feel good.

6
00:00:33,026 --> 00:00:40,152
And Brene Brown said, and we quoted in this episode coming up, you can't serve while
holding on to shame.

7
00:00:40,152 --> 00:00:47,018
And so if the goal here is service, if the goal here is to make a better world for
everyone, then how do we deal with realities?

8
00:00:47,018 --> 00:00:48,500
How do we deal with history?

9
00:00:48,500 --> 00:00:53,308
How do we deal with the fact that some of us have unearned privileges?

10
00:00:53,308 --> 00:00:57,471
that we were born on third base with a silver spoon in our mouth, whatever.

11
00:00:57,471 --> 00:01:10,090
So a conversation today is with Winitha Bonney who is a DEI expert, a consultant who comes
into organizations and helps make them more inclusive to help people belong, to help them

12
00:01:10,090 --> 00:01:11,501
become more diverse.

13
00:01:11,581 --> 00:01:16,305
And what she talks about is that the heart of it is empathy.

14
00:01:16,305 --> 00:01:21,168
The heart of all of this is considering how other people feel.

15
00:01:21,168 --> 00:01:23,131
And that's a way of putting it.

16
00:01:23,131 --> 00:01:25,383
that takes the shame out of the equation.

17
00:01:25,383 --> 00:01:27,254
And I hope you really enjoy this conversation.

18
00:01:27,254 --> 00:01:29,626
hope it helps you in your life and your organizations.

19
00:01:29,626 --> 00:01:40,604
And I hope it helps move the idea of empathy, of just caring for each other, regardless of
political differences, this caring for each other, being curious about each other and

20
00:01:40,604 --> 00:01:43,456
wanting the world to be a place that works for all of us.

21
00:01:43,456 --> 00:01:44,637
So without further ado.

22
00:01:44,636 --> 00:01:48,368
Winitha Bonney, welcome to the Plant Yourself podcast.

23
00:01:48,976 --> 00:01:50,857
Thank you so much for having me.

24
00:01:52,094 --> 00:01:53,965
I'm excited for this conversation.

25
00:01:53,965 --> 00:01:57,407
There's so much going on in the world.

26
00:01:57,407 --> 00:02:06,041
For those of you not watching the video, that was a face.

27
00:02:06,441 --> 00:02:07,817
There's a lot of work to do.

28
00:02:07,817 --> 00:02:09,143
There's a lot of strides forward.

29
00:02:09,143 --> 00:02:13,505
There's a lot of things that look like they're moving maybe backwards.

30
00:02:13,505 --> 00:02:16,686
Maybe we could begin by just introducing yourself.

31
00:02:18,370 --> 00:02:27,664
Yeah, so I've had a background working in corporate in a range of C-suite roles.

32
00:02:27,664 --> 00:02:33,216
I also have entrepreneurial background, so I've started several businesses.

33
00:02:33,616 --> 00:02:42,520
When I exited the C-suite path, I then turned my attention to working primarily around
diversity and inclusion.

34
00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:47,502
So at the meta level, it's really about change and changing culture.

35
00:02:47,502 --> 00:02:52,087
changing how we lead, changing how we do business.

36
00:02:53,069 --> 00:02:58,394
And then a lot of that work has actually focused on diversity, equity and inclusion.

37
00:02:58,694 --> 00:02:59,355
Hmm.

38
00:02:59,355 --> 00:03:08,220
So what in your background, your work background got you interested in diversity, equity
and inclusion?

39
00:03:08,641 --> 00:03:22,411
It these days it seems like it's a redheaded stepchild to things that people really care
about in the C-suite growth, sales, profits, market expansion, global traction.

40
00:03:22,851 --> 00:03:27,064
What made you say this is where I want to go and plant the flag?

41
00:03:28,036 --> 00:03:33,610
I don't know so much if it was me planting the flag, but more like people planting the
flag for me.

42
00:03:33,610 --> 00:03:48,602
So when I started my practice, I started with that work because I had already been doing
that work out in the community when I was working in corporate.

43
00:03:48,602 --> 00:03:53,746
So I was doing what we would call social or economic inclusion.

44
00:03:53,862 --> 00:03:58,722
work and I was doing that pro bono for many, many, many, many, many, many years.

45
00:03:58,722 --> 00:04:02,002
Um, for probably at that time, probably about 15 years.

46
00:04:02,222 --> 00:04:06,582
And so I already had an understanding of what inclusion diversity was.

47
00:04:06,842 --> 00:04:16,642
And, um, I guess people had sort of known me not just in my corporate work, but had known
me in my community work for doing that.

48
00:04:16,642 --> 00:04:22,322
And so people started coming to me asking if I could do that in their corporate
organizations.

49
00:04:22,322 --> 00:04:23,582
And so.

50
00:04:23,750 --> 00:04:33,993
I'm a big believer in following the signs and doing the work that I've been called to do
rather than the work that I think I should be doing.

51
00:04:34,674 --> 00:04:37,304
And that's where it started.

52
00:04:37,304 --> 00:04:41,295
think the roots of it was planted a lot earlier.

53
00:04:41,376 --> 00:04:48,898
So for whatever reason as a child I had grown up watching, my parents didn't...

54
00:04:49,710 --> 00:04:59,339
intentionally chooses for me, I would usually, you know, switch on the, you know, the TV
back in the day when you turned the sort of dial and, seven channels.

55
00:04:59,339 --> 00:05:00,259
Yep.

56
00:05:00,280 --> 00:05:10,228
And, you know, I watched a lot of things on the civil rights movement in the U S I think
that planted a lot of seeds for me.

57
00:05:10,249 --> 00:05:16,014
And then I also had my own experience of, you know, racism as, a young child.

58
00:05:16,260 --> 00:05:20,393
And so I think those two things together then got me asking a couple of questions.

59
00:05:20,474 --> 00:05:32,964
And it wasn't until I moved to Canada and then to the US and started working there that I
think for the first time I actually saw people that had similar skin tones and skin colors

60
00:05:32,964 --> 00:05:34,985
to me working in corporate.

61
00:05:35,186 --> 00:05:42,992
And then that really, I guess, brought it up to a much more conscious level of...

62
00:05:45,270 --> 00:05:54,013
hey, actually in corporate leadership, I am the only these experiences aren't normal, like
I assume they were.

63
00:05:54,713 --> 00:05:57,764
And I can either complain about it or I can do something about it.

64
00:05:57,764 --> 00:06:02,446
So I decided to come back to Australia and do something and do something about it.

65
00:06:02,446 --> 00:06:08,218
And so that's kind of where those threads came together.

66
00:06:08,218 --> 00:06:09,048
Yeah.

67
00:06:09,531 --> 00:06:14,767
So were you in the C-suite before you got to North America?

68
00:06:17,676 --> 00:06:20,247
No, I was in leadership.

69
00:06:20,247 --> 00:06:22,588
I was in leadership roles.

70
00:06:22,588 --> 00:06:29,149
I was in senior leadership roles, but I hadn't quite got to C-suite yet.

71
00:06:29,149 --> 00:06:37,752
I was working with people, so being, so I guess their roles more were what you would call
like vice president, so VP.

72
00:06:37,752 --> 00:06:41,643
So I was the right hand to them.

73
00:06:41,643 --> 00:06:44,434
And so because I was

74
00:06:44,838 --> 00:06:55,378
privileged to be in those spaces then I was like oh actually there's a lot more, well
there's still a lot of work to be done but compared to where Australia was at at that time

75
00:06:55,378 --> 00:07:00,958
this is back in 2007 so where Australia was back then I was like oh like

76
00:07:03,078 --> 00:07:05,524
It's like I saw my color for the second time.

77
00:07:05,524 --> 00:07:07,908
The first time was when I was in school.

78
00:07:08,290 --> 00:07:13,260
I was probably about six or seven years old and the second time was when I went to the
States.

79
00:07:14,730 --> 00:07:20,885
When you say you saw your color, what does that mean for those of us who have never had to
see our color?

80
00:07:21,478 --> 00:07:23,838
Yeah, I guess a difference.

81
00:07:24,318 --> 00:07:28,318
So I remember when I was in school, I was linking arms with my best friend.

82
00:07:28,318 --> 00:07:30,378
I think I was like six or seven at the time.

83
00:07:30,378 --> 00:07:35,438
And for the first time I saw the difference, which was she had white skin, I had brown
skin.

84
00:07:35,998 --> 00:07:38,378
I remember, remember vividly remember that moment.

85
00:07:38,378 --> 00:07:44,398
I was like, oh, I have brown skin because I operated in mostly white environments.

86
00:07:44,398 --> 00:07:50,038
So unconscious unconsciously, my brain just didn't register that, I'm different.

87
00:07:50,650 --> 00:07:53,231
I have a different skin color than the people around me.

88
00:07:53,413 --> 00:08:06,286
So the second time was in the US, I was actually taking a dance class and the room was
full of black and brown people, like full.

89
00:08:06,968 --> 00:08:09,150
I looked around the room and I was like,

90
00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,571
room is full of black and brown people.

91
00:08:14,512 --> 00:08:18,175
Everyone's got skin color just like me if not darker.

92
00:08:18,596 --> 00:08:31,425
And I saw that and that made me very conscious and aware of like in the workplace the
spaces that I had had seen it which was in the work that I was doing at the time as well

93
00:08:31,425 --> 00:08:38,136
as spaces that I hadn't seen it which was the career that I had to date in Australia so

94
00:08:38,136 --> 00:08:43,697
In Australia, when I was in these corporate environments, I didn't see a difference
between me and the other people.

95
00:08:44,841 --> 00:08:47,585
But then when I was in an environment where I was...

96
00:08:50,010 --> 00:08:52,291
had the opposite experience.

97
00:08:52,392 --> 00:08:59,117
It's like I actually saw the difference and that was the color of my skin.

98
00:08:59,358 --> 00:09:00,157
Yeah.

99
00:09:00,157 --> 00:09:08,469
So, you know, there's a there's a lot of, let's say, sort of, I would say, reactionary
talk about like not seeing skin color.

100
00:09:08,469 --> 00:09:12,711
know, people, you know, white people are like, well, I'm colorblind.

101
00:09:12,711 --> 00:09:14,121
It shouldn't matter.

102
00:09:14,621 --> 00:09:22,723
But it sounds like to some extent that was a little bit of your experience that you like,
like, this I'm not noticing.

103
00:09:22,723 --> 00:09:24,864
It doesn't matter where you like.

104
00:09:24,864 --> 00:09:28,785
Did it not matter or were you just not picking up on ways in which it did?

105
00:09:29,390 --> 00:09:32,282
I was not picking up on it because it wasn't talked about a home.

106
00:09:32,282 --> 00:09:36,356
I would say we grew up in a very westernized home.

107
00:09:36,356 --> 00:09:40,078
In my culture, the nickname for it is whitewashed.

108
00:09:40,159 --> 00:09:44,021
So, a schlanken.

109
00:09:44,122 --> 00:09:47,924
So I, just, yeah.

110
00:09:48,586 --> 00:09:51,208
Which means that, you know, the other term is a coconut.

111
00:09:51,208 --> 00:09:54,810
So, you know, you're brown on the outside, but white on the inside.

112
00:09:54,931 --> 00:09:59,302
So whitewashed, being whitewashed is saying, which means like we're being washed.

113
00:09:59,302 --> 00:10:05,582
white, so we live and breathe as a white person as opposed to our cultural identity.

114
00:10:05,762 --> 00:10:14,402
So that's not specific to Schlanken people, but it's, I guess, amongst POC, people of
color communities.

115
00:10:15,022 --> 00:10:16,482
It's a term that's used.

116
00:10:16,482 --> 00:10:20,942
Some people find it quite racist, brown and black people included.

117
00:10:22,122 --> 00:10:28,142
And so I grew up in that environment and my cousins would often tease me.

118
00:10:28,142 --> 00:10:28,934
They would use

119
00:10:28,934 --> 00:10:32,774
those two terms, I'm a coconut or that I'm whitewashed.

120
00:10:32,774 --> 00:10:35,174
And I just didn't really think anything of it.

121
00:10:35,174 --> 00:10:45,154
so, cause my cousins grew up in an environment in a community where there was majority
black and brown folk in Australia.

122
00:10:45,214 --> 00:10:57,712
But I lived on the other side of the city and I lived in a white community and my parents
are Christian, they're not Hindu and so.

123
00:10:57,712 --> 00:11:02,906
We went to a church and so just the environment that we grew up in, we didn't talk about
race.

124
00:11:02,906 --> 00:11:04,637
We didn't have conversations around that.

125
00:11:04,637 --> 00:11:07,125
And I grew up in a very white community.

126
00:11:07,125 --> 00:11:10,171
I was the only person of color.

127
00:11:10,551 --> 00:11:14,514
Me and a person called Esther, Esther was Asian.

128
00:11:14,514 --> 00:11:19,848
We were like the only non-white folk in our entire primary school.

129
00:11:19,848 --> 00:11:25,136
And I remember that because we took a whole school photo and I was like.

130
00:11:25,136 --> 00:11:27,787
Find the Brian Brown dot, that's me.

131
00:11:29,449 --> 00:11:43,419
So I think when you are in those environments, you can tend to assimilate and it wasn't
until I was older and I think particularly here in Australia, engaging more with First

132
00:11:43,419 --> 00:11:54,025
Nations communities, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities, that I then
started understanding the importance of culture through their eyes.

133
00:11:54,394 --> 00:12:00,845
through their lived experiences for myself of like, actually, what is my culture?

134
00:12:00,845 --> 00:12:02,307
What is my cultural identity?

135
00:12:02,307 --> 00:12:04,310
And asking questions about that.

136
00:12:06,081 --> 00:12:14,683
So here in the US, think, you know, DEI gets simplified to everyone should have a chance.

137
00:12:15,784 --> 00:12:27,457
like, you know, so you look at the corporate website and you look at the stock photos and
there's got to be the Asian guy and the black lady and the, you know, someone in a

138
00:12:27,457 --> 00:12:28,117
wheelchair.

139
00:12:28,117 --> 00:12:34,569
Like, that's like we're all but there's no there's not really any talk of culture.

140
00:12:34,987 --> 00:12:43,624
So it's like everyone gets to play in this westernized capitalist framework.

141
00:12:44,025 --> 00:12:53,012
To what extent in the work that you do and in your vision of it is DEI about just getting
everyone into the same room?

142
00:12:53,012 --> 00:12:59,737
Or are there conversations about the culture changing because of these inputs?

143
00:13:03,270 --> 00:13:05,078
It's kind of like...

144
00:13:09,062 --> 00:13:11,063
Well, inclusion is for everyone.

145
00:13:11,063 --> 00:13:14,374
It's just that the work looks different for everyone.

146
00:13:14,374 --> 00:13:24,089
So if we look at things from the context of gender and the binary lens, so male and
female, inclusion actually means everyone.

147
00:13:24,089 --> 00:13:31,612
What it means is just the work for those that identify as men is different to the work for
those that identify as women.

148
00:13:31,612 --> 00:13:34,353
But inherently, both people need to do work.

149
00:13:34,353 --> 00:13:36,358
It's just the work is different.

150
00:13:36,358 --> 00:13:43,618
So in order for greater inclusion and greater equity and equality to exist for women,
women also have worked.

151
00:13:43,618 --> 00:13:45,218
Women are not excluded from that.

152
00:13:45,218 --> 00:13:50,098
Women also have work to do, but it's a different kind of work to the work that men need to
do.

153
00:13:50,098 --> 00:13:51,218
It's a partnering.

154
00:13:51,218 --> 00:13:58,438
It's no different to being in a romantic relationship.

155
00:13:58,438 --> 00:14:00,118
There is dysfunction.

156
00:14:00,338 --> 00:14:03,638
Both individuals need

157
00:14:03,684 --> 00:14:07,816
to contribute towards unity and harmony being in existence.

158
00:14:08,277 --> 00:14:10,818
They both need to talk about things.

159
00:14:11,999 --> 00:14:17,002
There are compromises that need to be made and so forth.

160
00:14:17,082 --> 00:14:24,266
When I work with organizations, we look at things from the context of inclusion as a
whole.

161
00:14:24,667 --> 00:14:30,350
And we look at things more from the context of changing the culture.

162
00:14:31,198 --> 00:14:41,121
And we also look at what is the brand or the business, what do they have credibility to
speak about?

163
00:14:41,601 --> 00:14:48,654
So not all areas of, not all identities and areas of marginalization are going to be
relevant for organizations.

164
00:14:48,654 --> 00:14:56,146
think what a lot of them tend to do is when they try and create inclusion for everyone,
that's actually where they stuff up because

165
00:14:56,322 --> 00:15:05,047
the leaders, the organization doesn't have that credibility yet to talk in that space or
to do work in that space.

166
00:15:05,047 --> 00:15:08,289
There is a learning journey that needs to happen first.

167
00:15:08,349 --> 00:15:11,211
And we also need to look at relevancy for the brand.

168
00:15:11,211 --> 00:15:21,837
So what is going to be relevant for a brand, for a femme, female-focused fashion brand?

169
00:15:23,838 --> 00:15:27,009
what is going to be relevant for them is women.

170
00:15:27,009 --> 00:15:41,003
But within women, can then go into women, know, disabled women, we can go into First
Nations women, we can go into black and brown women, and women who are carers, women who

171
00:15:41,003 --> 00:15:48,044
are parents, we can then start to look at that at a deeper level and actually layer those
things through.

172
00:15:48,105 --> 00:15:52,226
But I think when organizations try to create inclusion for everyone,

173
00:15:53,540 --> 00:15:56,811
they struggle because it's just, it's so difficult.

174
00:15:56,811 --> 00:15:57,791
It's so complex.

175
00:15:57,791 --> 00:16:00,312
It's so nuanced.

176
00:16:00,312 --> 00:16:03,693
And we need to actually learn the work first.

177
00:16:03,693 --> 00:16:06,734
And the way that we do that is we pick certain areas.

178
00:16:06,734 --> 00:16:11,675
We also give ourselves permission to do so.

179
00:16:12,055 --> 00:16:15,496
And we focus and we go deep on those areas.

180
00:16:15,496 --> 00:16:22,384
Once organizations go deep in those areas, and what I find is that they have the skills
and the leaders have the skills to...

181
00:16:22,384 --> 00:16:27,448
create a culture of inclusion and then we can start to look at other areas.

182
00:16:27,448 --> 00:16:42,528
So one brand that I did a lot of work with, we focused on women, we focused on First
Nations and we focused on people of color and we focused on pride.

183
00:16:42,528 --> 00:16:48,652
So those are identifiers, LGBTQA plus and two-spirituities.

184
00:16:51,078 --> 00:17:03,198
In that, you know, we started with First Nations women, then we went to, um, to First
Nations women and women of color.

185
00:17:03,438 --> 00:17:13,118
And then we, you know, and then we went to First Nations women, women of color and, uh,
LGBTIQA plus FUG.

186
00:17:13,498 --> 00:17:20,318
And so in that, in that, you know, we, we stepped it out and that was probably like a two
to three year journey.

187
00:17:20,592 --> 00:17:27,205
But by going deep in one area first, then we had the skills to then start to build on
that.

188
00:17:27,365 --> 00:17:32,247
So for me, that's how we look at culture change.

189
00:17:32,708 --> 00:17:47,314
And you do need to be able to really stay grounded in that because when you focus on one
area, rightfully so, know, other communities will speak up and say, well, what about us?

190
00:17:47,664 --> 00:17:54,896
but there is a skill development that needs to happen that I think community often don't
realize.

191
00:17:55,076 --> 00:18:04,949
Because what I've seen with brands is that when they speak about anything and everything,
all areas of marginalization, discrimination, that's when they stuff up, when they try to

192
00:18:04,949 --> 00:18:14,161
be provocative or break the status quo in a particular area, they have some sort of
experience in that space first.

193
00:18:14,301 --> 00:18:17,892
So I try and identify what is the space that they've already been

194
00:18:19,767 --> 00:18:22,806
they've already been doing some work in.

195
00:18:22,989 --> 00:18:30,654
And we start with that and we go deep in that and we build the skills and then we start to
step by step go into the other spaces.

196
00:18:31,922 --> 00:18:38,846
So what you talked about, you know, the different contexts and different groups of people
have different work to do.

197
00:18:38,846 --> 00:18:46,872
So what what what is the what is the different work that goes into these early stages of
building?

198
00:18:46,872 --> 00:18:59,140
know, like I I was was sensitized to all this around 2020 when, you know, the George Floyd
murder made the news and

199
00:19:00,687 --> 00:19:11,151
You know, all of a sudden, like certain jokes couldn't be made or that, you know, right on
the heels of that, Me Too movement and like, you know, a bunch of men were like, I don't

200
00:19:11,151 --> 00:19:12,542
understand the rules anymore.

201
00:19:12,542 --> 00:19:13,559
I don't hate anyone.

202
00:19:13,559 --> 00:19:15,023
I just I'm just.

203
00:19:15,643 --> 00:19:24,627
Joking, I'm just, you know, where all of a sudden there were people that just clueless
like the world is changing and I don't I don't understand it.

204
00:19:24,627 --> 00:19:29,199
What is the work that goes into those early stages of saying, let's let's embrace a.

205
00:19:29,199 --> 00:19:31,328
Rater, Diversity and Inclusion.

206
00:19:31,642 --> 00:19:33,083
I think it's empathy.

207
00:19:33,584 --> 00:19:43,792
think, you know, when we look at, what I found is that when we look at the work of
inclusion really at its heart, it's about empathy.

208
00:19:43,792 --> 00:19:50,398
think there's this, you know, having that ability to understand other people's lived
experiences.

209
00:19:50,398 --> 00:19:59,745
You know, I've said racist things, I've said patriarchal things, I've said things that
were discriminatory towards disabled folk.

210
00:20:00,258 --> 00:20:09,442
And when people have pulled me up on that, you know, it's deeply uncomfortable because no
one wants to be a bad person.

211
00:20:09,442 --> 00:20:11,823
There is a lot of shame around that.

212
00:20:11,823 --> 00:20:23,398
But what I teach people is that, be thankful, you know, be thankful to that individual for
helping you and supporting you to stand in your integrity.

213
00:20:23,398 --> 00:20:29,470
I think most of us pride ourselves as to be a person of integrity, to stand, live and lead
with integrity.

214
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,852
And we we need support to do that.

215
00:20:34,552 --> 00:20:39,654
A lot of how the brain operates is from the unconscious, the unconscious mind.

216
00:20:39,654 --> 00:20:41,515
And so we don't often see things.

217
00:20:41,515 --> 00:20:53,150
And so when someone brings things from the unconscious into the conscious, and supports us
in that growth to stand, to stand more greatly in in, in, in integrity with a deep sense

218
00:20:53,150 --> 00:20:54,250
of empathy towards people.

219
00:20:54,250 --> 00:20:56,321
Yeah.

220
00:20:56,702 --> 00:20:58,402
You know,

221
00:20:58,958 --> 00:21:07,540
I had a colleague who's also in the D &I space and they say that, what have you got to
lose?

222
00:21:07,981 --> 00:21:08,981
Nothing.

223
00:21:09,421 --> 00:21:15,643
By not saying that joke or not, it's not costing us anything.

224
00:21:15,803 --> 00:21:21,104
By not saying that word or not saying that joke, it's not actually costing us.

225
00:21:21,224 --> 00:21:24,965
But the person who receives that, it's costing them.

226
00:21:25,566 --> 00:21:27,486
And so a lot of the times, the focus

227
00:21:27,486 --> 00:21:28,986
often ourselves.

228
00:21:29,407 --> 00:21:33,130
I can't say this, I can't do this, I can't, I can't, I can't, can't.

229
00:21:33,130 --> 00:21:45,738
So on one hand yes I do feel like with inclusion, inclusion is all about liberation but
then the sort of with inclusion with the work of inclusion there's a lot of paradoxical

230
00:21:45,738 --> 00:21:56,265
truth there is a yes and yes and and so yes what the work of inclusion is about liberation
and on the other side

231
00:21:57,616 --> 00:22:09,473
People do have this sense of, I don't feel liberated to just speak and be me because I'm
always cautious and I'm feeble of saying and doing the wrong thing because I might get

232
00:22:09,473 --> 00:22:10,653
canceled.

233
00:22:10,774 --> 00:22:15,716
So my encouragement to people is just to be you.

234
00:22:15,717 --> 00:22:18,958
And if someone corrects you, thank them.

235
00:22:19,839 --> 00:22:22,080
Keep that in mind, do your best and move on.

236
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,082
Like we don't need to make a big hoo-ha about it.

237
00:22:25,424 --> 00:22:35,042
You know, if you, I've gotten friends and colleagues pronouns incorrect and I apologize, I
can feel the shame rising.

238
00:22:35,042 --> 00:22:46,402
I apologize and I move on, you know, and that's been the feedback to me from those, from
those colleagues when I've got it wrong, which is don't make a big hoo-ha when you make a

239
00:22:46,402 --> 00:22:49,634
big hoo-ha about it, it actually makes things worse.

240
00:22:49,855 --> 00:22:53,658
So apologize, correct yourself.

241
00:22:54,210 --> 00:22:55,811
and move on.

242
00:22:56,192 --> 00:23:05,800
That said, know, within, I've worked across marginalized, different marginalized
communities, and I will say things are different for different people.

243
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:12,605
So what might be acceptable and tolerable for one person might be not acceptable and not
tolerable for another person.

244
00:23:12,646 --> 00:23:22,354
So for example, here in Australia, First Nations folk come from different tribes and
different clans and

245
00:23:24,138 --> 00:23:31,620
Some folk will say it's okay for you to ask what mob you're from.

246
00:23:31,620 --> 00:23:35,081
So what mob meaning what tribe or clan you're from.

247
00:23:35,722 --> 00:23:43,244
Other people will say that it's harmful to say that and that is linked to the stolen
generation.

248
00:23:43,604 --> 00:23:50,866
So children being taken away from their Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander families.

249
00:23:51,210 --> 00:23:56,511
and being put into the care of white people and so therefore there's a loss of identity.

250
00:23:56,511 --> 00:24:01,073
They actually don't know who they tribe and their clan from because that has been erased.

251
00:24:02,233 --> 00:24:06,274
And so to ask who your mob is can be traumatic for people.

252
00:24:06,474 --> 00:24:19,518
So you know some elders in the community will say you know what they've shared with me is
that some elders have said that's okay and other elders have said that's not okay and you

253
00:24:19,518 --> 00:24:20,238
know

254
00:24:21,574 --> 00:24:26,997
And then I thought, well then don't ask.

255
00:24:27,978 --> 00:24:40,485
So unless that person chooses to share, I, I thought, well, this lot say this, this lot
say that, well, is it important?

256
00:24:40,485 --> 00:24:41,765
Is it important to know?

257
00:24:41,765 --> 00:24:44,667
No, it's an individual is an individual.

258
00:24:44,667 --> 00:24:50,566
If that's what they want to share for me, which is their sovereignty, if they wish to
share that.

259
00:24:50,566 --> 00:24:54,446
with me or with others, they'll share it.

260
00:24:54,846 --> 00:25:00,386
And so, yeah, I feel like with the work, it requires deeper empathy.

261
00:25:00,386 --> 00:25:04,606
And I think with empathy comes greater consciousness and awareness.

262
00:25:04,726 --> 00:25:14,866
You've also got to look at things from a place of curiosity, like where does that stem,
like where does that trace back to?

263
00:25:17,146 --> 00:25:18,206
So...

264
00:25:21,798 --> 00:25:37,898
I think there was a museum in the States somewhere and for Black History Month they had in
a canteen or in a cafe or kitchen within the museum they had some watermelon salad or

265
00:25:37,898 --> 00:25:50,698
something like that as a feature for Black History Month and they got a lot of hate for
that.

266
00:25:50,816 --> 00:25:53,407
It's like you need to peel back the layers.

267
00:25:54,769 --> 00:25:58,191
What is the connection between black folk and watermelon?

268
00:26:00,073 --> 00:26:09,259
there is a history there around racism and then that links into slavery and colonization.

269
00:26:11,741 --> 00:26:15,484
I think the work really is about empathy.

270
00:26:15,484 --> 00:26:16,454
It starts with empathy.

271
00:26:16,454 --> 00:26:19,078
It's about having greater empathy towards others.

272
00:26:19,078 --> 00:26:22,638
As opposed to being concerned about ourselves, like I feel shamed.

273
00:26:22,638 --> 00:26:24,158
I'm a bad person.

274
00:26:24,218 --> 00:26:25,298
I can't say this.

275
00:26:25,298 --> 00:26:28,798
I can't say that my, my, voice is silenced.

276
00:26:28,798 --> 00:26:34,758
Having greater empathy, having greater sense of consciousness about the human existence,
not just our own.

277
00:26:34,998 --> 00:26:45,178
Um, and then looking at things with a sense of curiosity, knowing that just because
something happened 500 years ago or 200 years ago, doesn't mean that people are still

278
00:26:45,178 --> 00:26:47,678
feeling the effects of that.

279
00:26:47,998 --> 00:26:48,869
Yeah.

280
00:26:48,869 --> 00:26:49,709
Hmm.

281
00:26:49,710 --> 00:26:58,516
Yeah, I'm thinking about a lot of my own interactions, you having moved to Spain, there's
a it's like shaking, you know, shaking the kaleidoscope.

282
00:26:58,516 --> 00:27:06,502
There's a whole like new set of like people's characteristics that I'm fascinated by.

283
00:27:06,622 --> 00:27:15,919
So, you know, when I hear different accents and I see different facial features and skin
tones and heights, and I'm just curious about everybody.

284
00:27:16,747 --> 00:27:17,177
Right.

285
00:27:17,177 --> 00:27:23,760
some and, know, to me, it's a sign of respect to get to know someone.

286
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,237
you know, where are you from?

287
00:27:25,237 --> 00:27:38,585
And I'm hearing that there are there are situations and that there are contexts in which
that information maybe waits until you have developed an intimacy to to even begin.

288
00:27:39,147 --> 00:27:51,010
Yeah, I think so where that so I have come to the understanding that when people ask where
where am I from because they can hear an accent and then and the feedback that I've gotten

289
00:27:51,010 --> 00:28:00,772
is that they can't pinpoint exactly where that accent is from and then obviously my skin
is brown so people are curious and I know that's them seeing the difference so probably

290
00:28:00,772 --> 00:28:07,054
unconsciously seeing the difference but wanting to have a connection to me so that that
difference sort of

291
00:28:07,894 --> 00:28:09,515
sort of dissolves for them.

292
00:28:09,515 --> 00:28:14,257
It's maybe perhaps more of accountability for them than it is for me.

293
00:28:14,377 --> 00:28:24,602
But I also know with a lot of folk, know, they don't see things that way and they get
offended when people ask where they're from.

294
00:28:24,802 --> 00:28:31,945
And it's because, you know, they're very, they have this heightened awareness about their
difference.

295
00:28:32,125 --> 00:28:33,326
They've had...

296
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,712
you know, there, that comes with a sense of not feeling like they belong.

297
00:28:37,712 --> 00:28:46,246
And when someone shares that, it reinforces that sense of you're different and you don't
belong, you don't belong here.

298
00:28:46,246 --> 00:28:51,889
And so, you know, just, just like that, you know, like just like with that awareness, it's
okay.

299
00:28:51,889 --> 00:28:57,102
let's, mean, even today with the Uber driver, like the Uber driver, I thought he was from
the same country as me.

300
00:28:57,102 --> 00:29:03,545
And I was so curious about, you know, is he from the same, same,

301
00:29:04,016 --> 00:29:18,780
country as I am and you know I really wanted to ask him and we just had a conversation I
asked him how long you know because he said he shared that he had moved to Australia I

302
00:29:18,780 --> 00:29:30,623
asked him how long he's been living here I asked him you know where did you live before
Australia and he said Bangladesh and I was like you know and then he said I'm Bangladeshi

303
00:29:30,623 --> 00:29:34,214
where are you from I said I'm Sri Lankan so

304
00:29:34,662 --> 00:29:36,103
and then we had a chat for that.

305
00:29:36,103 --> 00:29:50,485
So rather than going in cold, know, just having conversation, we'd already been talking
for a while before that in the car and then slowly, you know, going into that, but having

306
00:29:50,485 --> 00:29:52,858
connection first, I think, yeah.

307
00:29:53,391 --> 00:29:56,383
I'm really appreciating the.

308
00:29:57,624 --> 00:30:02,327
The separation you're making between discomfort and shame.

309
00:30:02,888 --> 00:30:10,653
So, you know, being in the States and watching the corporate world embrace D.I.

310
00:30:10,801 --> 00:30:17,998
in a, I think, rushed, clumsy and ultimately uncommitted way because it's all went away.

311
00:30:19,081 --> 00:30:22,661
You know, a lot of the pushback was like.

312
00:30:24,382 --> 00:30:39,663
You know, the sort of like, you know, unconscious discrimination and, you know,
unconscious bias and and this the feeling that was expressed by a lot of white people that

313
00:30:39,663 --> 00:30:43,856
I know is that we're you have to feel guilty.

314
00:30:44,536 --> 00:30:44,857
Right.

315
00:30:44,857 --> 00:30:51,301
Like I have to, you know, I'm I'm I'm diseased and I have to, you know,

316
00:30:51,301 --> 00:30:53,192
cure myself of the disease.

317
00:30:53,192 --> 00:30:57,124
And there was a lot of pushback around that.

318
00:30:57,124 --> 00:31:03,066
And I think, you know, it's certainly just from a psychological perspective doesn't seem
like a great way to get people to change.

319
00:31:03,106 --> 00:31:06,921
And yet, you know, the opposite of everything's great.

320
00:31:06,921 --> 00:31:12,451
I have, you know, I have I have no responsibility for systemic racism, even though I'm
benefiting from it.

321
00:31:12,451 --> 00:31:15,962
Hey, I didn't do anything is also not moving the thing forward.

322
00:31:15,962 --> 00:31:18,073
And I love how you're talking about like.

323
00:31:18,705 --> 00:31:28,385
when you let go of guilt and shame and you can just feel this momentary and let it go,
that it doesn't have to be that bad.

324
00:31:30,726 --> 00:31:42,513
Yeah, know, shame, know, Brene Brown, you know, as I think a lot of folk know, like has
done a lot of work around shame and which is all about all about us.

325
00:31:42,513 --> 00:31:48,315
And yet we have the same tension around we have we have attention.

326
00:31:48,936 --> 00:31:50,016
Shame.

327
00:31:50,737 --> 00:31:52,518
So shame and service.

328
00:31:52,558 --> 00:31:56,480
So on one hand, shame is all about me.

329
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,222
And then at the same time, a lot of us have this desire to serve.

330
00:32:00,292 --> 00:32:04,926
and the two are often in tension with each other.

331
00:32:04,926 --> 00:32:08,508
But we cannot serve whilst holding onto shame.

332
00:32:09,370 --> 00:32:12,912
We have to let it go in order to serve and serve more fully.

333
00:32:13,773 --> 00:32:25,442
So, you know, we've all inherited a legacy and it's what we do with that legacy that
matters.

334
00:32:26,864 --> 00:32:29,125
But inherently we cannot...

335
00:32:30,458 --> 00:32:33,579
You know, that is the legacy of privilege.

336
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:41,494
And we can choose in that moment to not stay in shame, but to let it go and to step into
service.

337
00:32:41,494 --> 00:32:46,067
Actually, how can I be of service to people?

338
00:32:46,628 --> 00:32:51,470
So, know, guilt and shame will just hold you back and keep you stuck.

339
00:32:51,671 --> 00:32:54,972
And that is all about us.

340
00:32:54,972 --> 00:32:57,634
You know, how can we show up for others?

341
00:32:57,946 --> 00:33:03,591
You know, we are humans on this, you know, strange planet called, called Earth.

342
00:33:03,812 --> 00:33:10,198
And we cannot survive as a human race if we just look out for our own race.

343
00:33:10,198 --> 00:33:14,541
If we just look out for our own kind, we have to be in partnership with others.

344
00:33:14,602 --> 00:33:16,984
And that is a partnership of compromise.

345
00:33:17,625 --> 00:33:17,955
Right?

346
00:33:17,955 --> 00:33:22,869
Just like every other relationship in our lives, it is a partnership of compromise of...

347
00:33:23,414 --> 00:33:32,408
shifting here, they shift, we shift, they shift, we shift, they shift and at some, you
know, it is evolutionary and so

348
00:33:35,462 --> 00:33:47,942
Yeah, so I don't think it's, I think the sort of go-to, particularly after 2020 with the
Black Lives Matter movement was that, I mean, there are definitely folk out there that

349
00:33:47,942 --> 00:33:50,602
will say, yes, you should feel guilty.

350
00:33:53,722 --> 00:34:02,682
My orientation is that if we are to coexist on this planet called Earth, we need to find a
way to make this work.

351
00:34:03,910 --> 00:34:09,270
You know, we have to function, which means you've got work to do, also I've got work to
do.

352
00:34:09,390 --> 00:34:16,410
So for white folk, it's actually around, well, let's understand the history until you
fully understand the history, you don't know.

353
00:34:17,030 --> 00:34:21,450
Um, and it's a history that it is a legacy that we have.

354
00:34:21,530 --> 00:34:23,110
We have inherited.

355
00:34:23,110 --> 00:34:29,850
And so we need to do something with that legacy work in the justice.

356
00:34:30,232 --> 00:34:35,984
Inclusion is a fancy corporate word for what this work is really about, which is social
justice and human rights.

357
00:34:36,424 --> 00:34:46,907
And one of the key things that creates greater justice in the world, well, an approach to
justice is what we call restorative justice.

358
00:34:47,207 --> 00:34:54,089
And that is a process of which two people come together to restore and to heal.

359
00:34:54,129 --> 00:34:57,450
So the perpetrator and the victim.

360
00:35:00,194 --> 00:35:17,114
if it's safe to do so for the victim then they would come together in a process and it is
a process of making amends essentially until that amends has been made people can't move

361
00:35:17,114 --> 00:35:27,930
forward it's human it's human psychology but when the person makes amends the irony is
that they experience a liberation from the hurt and the harm that they have caused

362
00:35:28,262 --> 00:35:32,482
So we've inherited a legacy.

363
00:35:32,942 --> 00:35:35,742
And it's about what we do with that.

364
00:35:35,802 --> 00:35:41,742
With the country that I am from, we have a similar journey.

365
00:35:41,742 --> 00:35:48,982
It's probably just a bit more fresh because we had a civil war for 20 something years.

366
00:35:49,002 --> 00:35:53,142
And it was essentially Singalese versus Tamil people.

367
00:35:53,362 --> 00:35:58,142
So in Sri Lanka, have Tamil folk, we have Singalese.

368
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:07,073
We also have people that we call burgers, which are people that are Sri Lankan, but also
have Dutch, Portuguese or French or English blood in them.

369
00:36:07,774 --> 00:36:14,156
And, but essentially it was Tamil people and single East people fighting for control of
the country.

370
00:36:14,597 --> 00:36:19,498
And, there was hurt and harm that was caused to both sides.

371
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,940
And so the greater question for the country is can, can we exist?

372
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,048
And until amends are made to both, to both folk.

373
00:36:28,048 --> 00:36:31,159
to both communities.

374
00:36:31,940 --> 00:36:35,022
Because there was hurt and there was pain and there suffering to both.

375
00:36:35,022 --> 00:36:38,924
just, you know, in that context.

376
00:36:39,224 --> 00:36:49,530
So when I look at, you know, white folk and black folk or white folk and people of color,
because colonization didn't just happen between white and black folk, it happened all

377
00:36:49,530 --> 00:36:50,770
around the world.

378
00:36:52,171 --> 00:36:58,070
You know, there are reoccurring

379
00:36:58,070 --> 00:37:02,154
there's a legacy that's been inherited by people.

380
00:37:02,154 --> 00:37:08,739
For some people that legacy has been good, for some people that had a legacy has not been
good.

381
00:37:09,260 --> 00:37:17,647
And so how are we coming together to, in a restorative sense, know, create greater
harmony?

382
00:37:18,068 --> 00:37:23,412
How are we coming together as people to partner together so that no one feels left out?

383
00:37:23,472 --> 00:37:25,313
If you are in a family,

384
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:37,197
If you are a part of a family and you genuinely love each and every single one that is in
your family, but say you had a family of four and there were only three potatoes, would

385
00:37:37,197 --> 00:37:40,589
you ask for one person to miss out on a potato for their dinner?

386
00:37:40,589 --> 00:37:42,379
If that's all you had for dinner?

387
00:37:42,540 --> 00:37:48,823
No, you would as a family come together and you would ensure that everyone had equal equal
parts, that everyone got fed.

388
00:37:48,823 --> 00:37:50,785
But the human race is exactly the same.

389
00:37:50,785 --> 00:37:53,508
But what we've forgotten essentially in the human race

390
00:37:53,508 --> 00:37:55,199
is to actually love one another.

391
00:37:55,199 --> 00:37:59,762
And that is also what I'm talking about when I talk about empathy.

392
00:38:00,523 --> 00:38:05,506
We live in, as you talked about, capitalist society, which is me and me at all costs.

393
00:38:05,506 --> 00:38:07,368
And there are people that miss out.

394
00:38:07,368 --> 00:38:12,511
And that is a legacy that we inherit.

395
00:38:12,892 --> 00:38:16,844
So it's not about shame, it's not about guilt.

396
00:38:16,844 --> 00:38:22,698
It's actually about, with the privilege that I have benefiting from

397
00:38:23,194 --> 00:38:37,134
these systems and the way that they operate, what can I do to ensure that other folk who
miss out on those privileges, what can I do to ensure that they have access to those same

398
00:38:37,134 --> 00:38:38,205
privileges?

399
00:38:38,205 --> 00:38:39,776
That's got to come from a place of love.

400
00:38:39,776 --> 00:38:41,998
That's got to come from a place of empathy, you know?

401
00:38:41,998 --> 00:38:43,949
Yeah.

402
00:38:44,219 --> 00:38:46,210
So, yeah.

403
00:38:46,210 --> 00:38:52,734
So this is, you you said like you can't serve while holding on to shame or guilt doesn't
really have a play.

404
00:38:52,734 --> 00:38:53,224
And yet.

405
00:38:53,224 --> 00:38:57,616
So if the thing I do is I post memes.

406
00:38:58,717 --> 00:38:59,537
Right.

407
00:38:59,537 --> 00:39:00,318
And I don't.

408
00:39:00,318 --> 00:39:03,820
And but like, I'm not willing to give up my privilege.

409
00:39:03,820 --> 00:39:09,883
Like just speaking like I have, you know, some inherited money that allows me to live a
certain way.

410
00:39:09,883 --> 00:39:13,778
I have an education that that gives me certain things.

411
00:39:13,778 --> 00:39:24,158
And I feel like like I'm honestly like when I look at the world as it is, I'm afraid to be
in the bottom 50 percent.

412
00:39:24,158 --> 00:39:24,538
Right.

413
00:39:24,538 --> 00:39:25,618
It seems it seems horrible.

414
00:39:25,618 --> 00:39:27,098
It seems scary.

415
00:39:27,098 --> 00:39:29,718
It's like there's not enough potatoes.

416
00:39:30,178 --> 00:39:35,298
And, you know, for me and my family, like I saw a meme that's meant to be very humorous.

417
00:39:35,298 --> 00:39:43,684
And it's kind of kind of punched me in the face and showed this, you know, this very
young, beautiful, carefree white woman sitting on a stoop with like a latte drink.

418
00:39:43,684 --> 00:39:59,602
and says, you know, woman says self care is an act is, you know, an act of of solidarity
or, you know, engages in no other acts of solid solidarity.

419
00:40:00,363 --> 00:40:01,483
Right.

420
00:40:01,543 --> 00:40:11,978
So like, you know, when I hear you talking about like sharing the potatoes among the
family, that to me brings up sort of a Marxist idea of redistribute of like significant

421
00:40:11,978 --> 00:40:13,305
redistribution.

422
00:40:13,305 --> 00:40:22,712
as opposed to sort of the identity politics of, you know, like differences.

423
00:40:22,712 --> 00:40:31,278
Like you're saying, yes, there's all these differences and we have to kind of include
people and be diverse and engage in injustice.

424
00:40:31,579 --> 00:40:35,281
But at the end of the day, it's really about everyone getting potatoes.

425
00:40:37,350 --> 00:40:44,290
Yeah, I mean, that's the way the system operates, is it disadvantages people based on
identity.

426
00:40:44,870 --> 00:40:58,390
So there's so many studies that have been done, I think particularly around race, but we
have all these perceptions that someone with, for example, someone with Down syndrome,

427
00:40:58,638 --> 00:41:05,363
cannot perform a job to a certain standard than someone who doesn't have, who's not Down
syndrome.

428
00:41:05,504 --> 00:41:24,400
So it's not so much redistribution, but looking at, you know, who is disadvantaged based
on the way that a system operates and re-engineering the system to ensure that everyone

429
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,406
has the same access to that.

430
00:41:26,406 --> 00:41:36,766
The reason why people don't stand in solidarity, the reason why people don't do anything
is because they are fearful of losing out and fearful of liking what you said, being in

431
00:41:36,766 --> 00:41:45,786
that 50%, but in my experience, have, no one has ever lost anything for standing up for
something.

432
00:41:45,846 --> 00:41:52,094
We have all kept those things, you know, speaking up.

433
00:41:52,822 --> 00:42:09,447
I remember I had a dance company at one point and I remember going in Japan and my
artistic director is Zimbabwean and you know he's got dreads, his skin tone is much more

434
00:42:09,447 --> 00:42:20,810
darker than mine and I had a little trouble at the border but I got through but I saw that
he was

435
00:42:21,050 --> 00:42:23,310
you know, struggling at customs.

436
00:42:23,711 --> 00:42:31,183
And so I could have just gone through on the other side and just kind of stood there with
all the other dancers who'd all well and all the other dancers were much more line of skin

437
00:42:31,183 --> 00:42:33,593
than me, let alone him.

438
00:42:33,794 --> 00:42:41,936
But I knew in that moment, you know, he was being questioned, you know.

439
00:42:41,936 --> 00:42:48,058
So I went and I stood right next to him and I said to him, what's going on?

440
00:42:50,672 --> 00:42:52,023
how can I best support you?

441
00:42:52,023 --> 00:42:58,407
So rather me being rah rah rah rah rah, actually asking him from a place of he's
suffering, to you not mine.

442
00:42:58,547 --> 00:43:00,499
How can I best support you in this moment?

443
00:43:00,499 --> 00:43:03,151
And he said, can you try and work through this?

444
00:43:03,151 --> 00:43:09,554
Anyway, I did get a little bit heated and we then both sat in a room for a little bit.

445
00:43:09,615 --> 00:43:18,241
But you know, that to me solidarity is me willing to stay in the mud with him.

446
00:43:18,241 --> 00:43:20,482
You know, doesn't mean that

447
00:43:20,686 --> 00:43:22,987
You know, I still have my privileges.

448
00:43:23,606 --> 00:43:30,230
I haven't lost it on those privileges, but am I willing to sit to sit in the mud with him?

449
00:43:30,230 --> 00:43:36,893
When we think about friendship, when we've extended the hand of help to our friends when
they've needed it, have we lost anything?

450
00:43:36,893 --> 00:43:40,174
Have we been deprived of anything?

451
00:43:40,174 --> 00:43:41,375
For the most part?

452
00:43:41,375 --> 00:43:48,157
No, you know, we still have our jobs, our incomes, you know, so forth and things like
that.

453
00:43:49,688 --> 00:44:04,919
And so, you know, fear is what often drives, drives fear and greed, you know, often drives
a lot of, a lot of inequality.

454
00:44:04,919 --> 00:44:18,470
So my experience working with different communities, also for me, working, trying really
hard to, to stand in solidarity with other

455
00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:21,970
other communities whose identities are different to mine.

456
00:44:22,270 --> 00:44:27,370
I have never lost any of my things that I...

457
00:44:27,370 --> 00:44:30,350
Because the system is so complex, you know?

458
00:44:30,350 --> 00:44:32,550
I have not lost anything.

459
00:44:33,010 --> 00:44:37,530
I have gained so much of being of service to others.

460
00:44:37,670 --> 00:44:39,410
I haven't lost anything.

461
00:44:39,410 --> 00:44:45,610
I think, again, that's all about us and it's all about the ego.

462
00:44:45,710 --> 00:44:47,386
I want...

463
00:44:47,386 --> 00:44:48,906
people to thrive.

464
00:44:48,906 --> 00:44:52,767
want I don't want people to suffer in the world.

465
00:44:53,588 --> 00:44:54,568
I don't.

466
00:44:54,568 --> 00:44:56,208
Why should they suffer?

467
00:44:56,249 --> 00:45:07,372
Why should you know, young girls be thrown into sex trafficking?

468
00:45:07,752 --> 00:45:09,752
you know, why?

469
00:45:10,133 --> 00:45:11,133
Why?

470
00:45:11,793 --> 00:45:15,696
Me standing up and trying to do something to help

471
00:45:15,696 --> 00:45:17,827
contribute towards alleviating that.

472
00:45:17,988 --> 00:45:19,800
It's not depriving me of anything.

473
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:25,304
And I think that's where we've got it wrong.

474
00:45:28,047 --> 00:45:42,895
So so another another fear that I think might have something to it is if you know,
especially working in corporate environments where in the United States there are the

475
00:45:42,895 --> 00:45:46,497
legal system has set up the financial system.

476
00:45:46,497 --> 00:45:51,119
The corporation is a person is a legal entity.

477
00:45:51,286 --> 00:45:55,162
It has obligations to its shareholders.

478
00:45:55,162 --> 00:45:55,589
Mm.

479
00:45:55,589 --> 00:46:07,336
that sometimes, you know, wipe out what you might consider ethical obligations, at if it's
not an expressive, you know, B Corp or social responsibility corporation.

480
00:46:10,298 --> 00:46:18,062
it's corporate America, at least, and I don't know about Australia necessarily, rest of
the world, corporate America has a culture.

481
00:46:18,142 --> 00:46:23,365
And in many ways, it's I imagine at odds with.

482
00:46:23,569 --> 00:46:26,902
First Nations cultures with indigenous cultures, with.

483
00:46:26,902 --> 00:46:40,383
You know, queer cultures that that may have like like like if you say, I don't want people
to suffer, I don't want people to live in poverty, I don't want people to get sex

484
00:46:40,383 --> 00:46:41,223
trafficked.

485
00:46:41,223 --> 00:46:47,268
That's kind of beside the point for for Bank of America or Goldman Sachs.

486
00:46:47,268 --> 00:46:47,598
Right.

487
00:46:47,598 --> 00:46:53,295
So is is there is there a concern that when we open up our

488
00:46:53,295 --> 00:46:59,398
these institutions of power to people who have in groups that have been marginalized, that
they're going to change everything.

489
00:46:59,398 --> 00:47:02,023
And we're not, we're going to stop destroying the world.

490
00:47:02,023 --> 00:47:05,229
Like, that's a real fear, isn't it?

491
00:47:09,030 --> 00:47:18,163
We're evolutionary creatures, we're constantly, like evolution is a process of change.

492
00:47:19,867 --> 00:47:23,451
My experience is that things don't change overnight.

493
00:47:26,884 --> 00:47:32,156
The fear in some of the clients that I've worked with has been that I will come in and
break things.

494
00:47:34,638 --> 00:47:38,019
My experience has been things have never been broken.

495
00:47:39,340 --> 00:47:41,200
They've only been enhanced.

496
00:47:42,181 --> 00:47:48,323
think consumers, my experience in the research shows that consumers are more conscious.

497
00:47:49,524 --> 00:47:51,705
We're already seeing it with Tesla.

498
00:47:51,705 --> 00:47:53,892
They're conscious about what brands.

499
00:47:53,892 --> 00:47:57,545
and their founders or the people behind them, what they stand for.

500
00:47:57,986 --> 00:48:00,027
And they will boycott.

501
00:48:00,548 --> 00:48:03,100
They will boycott brands and they will destroy brands.

502
00:48:03,100 --> 00:48:04,632
have the power to do that.

503
00:48:04,632 --> 00:48:06,623
We've seen it with the Ambercomber and Finch.

504
00:48:06,623 --> 00:48:11,397
We've seen it with Victoria's Secret, which I think were both owned by the same person.

505
00:48:12,018 --> 00:48:19,084
We've seen it with so many other brands that seek to...

506
00:48:22,178 --> 00:48:36,844
no longer exists because consciousness has evolved the human consciousness has evolved as
so if Victoria's Secret is example I mean Victoria's Secret is still around I haven't

507
00:48:36,844 --> 00:48:46,759
quite checked the numbers from but from when I last checked it the revenue numbers were
not not as high as what they were when Victoria's Secret were at their peak what they

508
00:48:46,759 --> 00:48:50,106
failed to do was to so what you know

509
00:48:50,106 --> 00:48:58,052
First women were like, Victoria's Secret Angels, yay, we love sexy women in lingerie and
women that looked like that.

510
00:48:58,873 --> 00:49:00,934
And then women evolved.

511
00:49:01,275 --> 00:49:06,639
I started asking questions of like, actually, are all women like this?

512
00:49:06,639 --> 00:49:07,980
Is this okay?

513
00:49:07,980 --> 00:49:16,726
Is that perhaps the hyper sexualization of women and what are the societal impacts of?

514
00:49:17,058 --> 00:49:22,640
women being perceived and portrayed as that, how does that impact women's sense of safety
in the world?

515
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,961
How does it impact women's sense of safety even within relationships?

516
00:49:29,041 --> 00:49:30,002
And so forth.

517
00:49:30,002 --> 00:49:34,063
so women's, as women's consciousness evolved and was like, hang on.

518
00:49:34,063 --> 00:49:43,425
Cause in the, in the, in the late eighties, nineties, it was all about, you know, part of
women's empowerment was like, you know, embrace your sexuality and feel sexy or whatever.

519
00:49:43,425 --> 00:49:45,366
And then women were like, hang on.

520
00:49:46,220 --> 00:49:57,076
And so Victoria's Secret failed to progress with failed to listen to women and what their
needs were and you can see that shift in women's consciousness and the evolution of that

521
00:49:57,076 --> 00:50:08,922
consciousness because as women sort of change you see this, you know, this big hooky curve
going up in revenue and then straightaway dropping because they failed to listen.

522
00:50:08,922 --> 00:50:13,325
There were so many other things that were going on like a lot of sexism within the
organization.

523
00:50:13,325 --> 00:50:15,406
I think some of the female leaders

524
00:50:15,406 --> 00:50:17,667
within the brand, trying to speak up.

525
00:50:18,087 --> 00:50:30,192
And so what you have with them is a very different brand to the brand that they, but they
used to have, they had to change the whole company, whether they'll continue to exist is a

526
00:50:30,192 --> 00:50:32,343
whole other conversation.

527
00:50:32,343 --> 00:50:34,494
But I think if they...

528
00:50:34,741 --> 00:50:40,783
founder and CEO also had Jeffrey Epstein as his money manager for 20 years, which is not a
great look.

529
00:50:41,637 --> 00:50:43,608
yeah, there's a whole bunch of things that went in.

530
00:50:43,608 --> 00:50:46,540
So a whole bunch of things that went on.

531
00:50:46,540 --> 00:50:53,034
yeah, in my experience, I have a lot of colleagues that do this work.

532
00:50:53,074 --> 00:51:05,721
have never seen a brand being broken by the work of DEI or putting more in air quotation
marks diverse people in charge of these companies.

533
00:51:05,721 --> 00:51:07,172
What we have seen is a comp-

534
00:51:07,172 --> 00:51:07,923
lead opposite.

535
00:51:07,923 --> 00:51:16,610
So I don't have any data to prove that all I know is like the desktop data that I've done
in terms of things that I've seen the research the articles that I've seen.

536
00:51:16,610 --> 00:51:28,521
What I have seen is brands being broken when they don't have a core sense of diversity and
inclusion within their brands.

537
00:51:28,521 --> 00:51:29,532
If we look at things.

538
00:51:29,532 --> 00:51:34,706
I'm thinking it's beyond brands and just capability.

539
00:51:34,706 --> 00:51:43,622
I think about, know, like I think I can get confused if I see, you know, a transgender
spokesperson for Budweiser.

540
00:51:43,622 --> 00:51:48,664
I can think, they're a progressive brand when they have nothing to do with it.

541
00:51:48,664 --> 00:51:54,937
But let's say a company like Boeing, which was arguably one of the one of the greatest
companies.

542
00:51:55,279 --> 00:52:12,762
by capitalist standards in the world in terms of what they did and the quality of, like, a
bunch of the same people kept their jobs, it was affirmative action for white people who

543
00:52:12,762 --> 00:52:17,045
are not that talented, and all of sudden, Boeing can't keep a jet in the air.

544
00:52:17,316 --> 00:52:19,726
Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.

545
00:52:19,726 --> 00:52:28,156
I'm just gonna plug in my laptop because it just said to me that the apologies, apologies
for that, for moving the screen around.

546
00:52:29,238 --> 00:52:41,770
You know, there was a lot of blame because it was an easy place to put the blame, you
know, that there is no, there is no data around that, you know.

547
00:52:42,534 --> 00:52:46,934
It's so interesting because when it comes to diversity and inclusion, people will say, is
the data?

548
00:52:46,934 --> 00:52:52,494
But when it comes to putting the blame on diversity and inclusion, all of a sudden data is
forgotten about.

549
00:52:53,594 --> 00:53:09,094
So, I mean, I think that's all part of a bigger strategy around power and throwing as
much.

550
00:53:09,452 --> 00:53:14,767
into the media to create mass confusion through chaos.

551
00:53:14,767 --> 00:53:20,853
I think that particular situation was part of a much larger, a much larger strategy.

552
00:53:22,975 --> 00:53:25,337
But in my experience,

553
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:36,782
Yeah, that is putting more diverse people into those roles.

554
00:53:36,782 --> 00:53:54,657
mean, my assumption would be, I haven't worked in the Air Force field, but my assumption
would be having worked in other areas is that it is a very highly regulated space with a

555
00:53:54,657 --> 00:53:58,138
very, very heavy focus on safety.

556
00:53:58,794 --> 00:54:08,548
So the problem isn't diversity, the problem is in the mechanics of the operation.

557
00:54:11,526 --> 00:54:14,106
and things like that.

558
00:54:15,086 --> 00:54:17,406
yeah, I mean...

559
00:54:19,738 --> 00:54:22,822
Yeah, my thing is where is the data?

560
00:54:24,146 --> 00:54:25,407
To back that up.

561
00:54:28,209 --> 00:54:36,641
So when you think about the work that you do and the work that needs to be done, where do
you see it going in the next five, 10 years?

562
00:54:36,641 --> 00:54:37,583
Like, what?

563
00:54:39,525 --> 00:54:41,385
What what can we look forward to?

564
00:54:41,385 --> 00:54:47,688
I know there's you there's a lot of, you know, reactionary movements right now.

565
00:54:47,688 --> 00:54:53,050
I'm I'm telling myself that they're the last dying gasp of an old world.

566
00:54:53,050 --> 00:54:54,610
I hope that's true.

567
00:54:56,091 --> 00:55:02,133
know, would paint is paint is a picture of a world in which like stuff works.

568
00:55:03,618 --> 00:55:12,862
Yeah, I saw, I believe the future of DEI, mean, there's a big conversation amongst
practitioners around what is the future of the work.

569
00:55:13,622 --> 00:55:17,164
My sort of sense is like, let's just sit with it for now.

570
00:55:17,164 --> 00:55:21,825
Let's not do like a big rebrand of the work and relabel it as some something else.

571
00:55:21,825 --> 00:55:24,626
Let's actually sit with it, sit with it for now.

572
00:55:25,327 --> 00:55:32,429
I believe the future of this work is actually about empathy and us coming back to a sense
of

573
00:55:33,934 --> 00:55:36,656
of humanness about what the work is about.

574
00:55:38,558 --> 00:55:41,520
We live in a very globally connected world.

575
00:55:41,761 --> 00:55:42,801
There is...

576
00:55:45,506 --> 00:55:57,581
I guess the sort of ideal future is a future where people genuinely look out for the needs
and the interests of others rather than solely their own and have a service orientation.

577
00:55:58,172 --> 00:56:08,260
So we're back after some Internet glitches, but I want to make sure before you go with it
that you let people know how they can find you and your work and who should reach out for

578
00:56:08,260 --> 00:56:09,430
your service.

579
00:56:10,254 --> 00:56:11,385
Yeah, absolutely.

580
00:56:11,385 --> 00:56:24,471
can connect with me on LinkedIn, Winnitha Bonney, Instagram at winnitha.bonnie, and also
my website is winnitha.com.

581
00:56:25,312 --> 00:56:25,956
So.

582
00:56:25,956 --> 00:56:28,149
and spell Winnitha for.

583
00:56:28,396 --> 00:56:33,839
Yeah, W-I-N-I-T-H-A dot com.

584
00:56:33,839 --> 00:56:40,442
That's probably the best place to find me, to send me a message and get in contact.

585
00:56:41,483 --> 00:56:52,009
Right now I'm really focusing on spreading the message via events and speaking at
different corporate events and conferences.

586
00:56:52,009 --> 00:56:55,311
One of the keynotes that I have is called, Ain't Woke.

587
00:56:57,048 --> 00:56:59,190
commercially smart inclusion.

588
00:56:59,351 --> 00:57:11,796
And that's really about resetting the agenda on the work and what it looks like for
organizations and how inclusion truly is a win-win strategy for all kinds of organizations

589
00:57:11,796 --> 00:57:12,947
and businesses.

590
00:57:13,782 --> 00:57:16,002
Awesome, and do you do this work globally?

591
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:19,007
Yeah, absolutely.

592
00:57:19,136 --> 00:57:24,745
Awesome, so maybe someone listening to this can get you to Spain and we could meet up and
have tapas.

593
00:57:24,952 --> 00:57:27,598
Yeah, that would be amazing.

594
00:57:28,288 --> 00:57:31,102
I think it's cool that your website is your first name.

595
00:57:31,102 --> 00:57:36,090
That's like making you like, you know, share or Madonna.

596
00:57:36,090 --> 00:57:39,244
Like you own the brand.

597
00:57:39,347 --> 00:57:42,130
Yeah, I gotta thank my mother for that one, huh?

598
00:57:44,122 --> 00:57:52,268
Winitha Bonney, thank you so much for this really heartfelt and thought-provoking
conversation and for all the work you do in the world.

599
00:57:52,690 --> 00:57:53,052
Amazing.

600
00:57:53,052 --> 00:57:54,179
Thank you so much for having me.

601
00:57:54,179 --> 00:57:55,624
I really appreciate it.

602
00:57:55,852 --> 00:57:57,029
All right, take care, have fun.

603
00:57:57,681 --> 00:57:58,741
And that's a wrap.

604
00:57:58,741 --> 00:58:04,601
Show notes for today's episode at PlantYourself.com slash 621.

605
00:58:05,401 --> 00:58:06,081
What's going on?

606
00:58:06,081 --> 00:58:08,021
Movement News haven't done much.

607
00:58:08,021 --> 00:58:12,321
a weekend off just exploring the old city of Gerona.

608
00:58:12,321 --> 00:58:16,601
So did a lot of walking, but not much exertion.

609
00:58:16,601 --> 00:58:26,191
Coming back to the beach this morning after a podcast interview that I'm going to run,
going to do some sprinting.

610
00:58:26,191 --> 00:58:31,926
My trainer Jay is now throwing a football ahead of me and I try to run in the sand and
catch up to it.

611
00:58:31,926 --> 00:58:36,691
I get about one in five or six, but apparently it's building good stamina.

612
00:58:36,691 --> 00:58:41,776
And we got the weekend grass tournament up north, north of Gerona this coming weekend.

613
00:58:41,776 --> 00:58:46,039
So excited to be back in cleats on grass.

614
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,503
And that's about it for movement.

615
00:58:49,503 --> 00:58:51,845
Just just trying to keep things.

616
00:58:52,017 --> 00:58:53,098
calm and steady.

617
00:58:53,098 --> 00:58:54,188
Other things going on.

618
00:58:54,188 --> 00:58:55,730
The weather is getting real nice here.

619
00:58:55,730 --> 00:58:56,970
The trees are budding.

620
00:58:56,970 --> 00:59:01,854
There's been a lot of rain in Spain this this past year.

621
00:59:01,854 --> 00:59:10,990
It's helped with the drought and things are looking forward to a greener spring and early
summer than I've seen so far.

622
00:59:10,990 --> 00:59:12,511
Hey, a thought.

623
00:59:12,591 --> 00:59:21,237
It's beautiful area where I live and if folks would be interested in a three or four day

624
00:59:21,533 --> 00:59:38,608
retreat around mindset, around living your best life, removing the things that have
triggered us so that we can move through life with more composure, become less flappable,

625
00:59:38,608 --> 00:59:39,869
more unflappable.

626
00:59:39,869 --> 00:59:50,397
Anyone's interested in that and coming out to the Barcelona area, staying in a nice place,
getting some nature and doing some group work on ourselves.

627
00:59:52,074 --> 00:59:55,097
Hit me up at PlantYourself.com.

628
00:59:55,097 --> 01:00:00,151
I'm not committed to this, but if there's interest, I'd be happy to start putting things
together.

629
01:00:00,151 --> 01:00:03,544
I used to do this quite a lot when I still lived in North Carolina.

630
01:00:03,544 --> 01:00:15,514
We would have these sick to fit retreats where people would come, maybe six to ten people,
and we would do really amazing, deep work, eat great food, go running, go walking,

631
01:00:15,514 --> 01:00:19,517
connect, make lifelong friends and

632
01:00:20,047 --> 01:00:24,263
I hadn't I hadn't thought about doing that over here, but now I'm thinking about it.

633
01:00:24,263 --> 01:00:25,265
So H.J.

634
01:00:25,265 --> 01:00:26,537
at Plant Yourself dot com.

635
01:00:26,537 --> 01:00:26,938
H.J.

636
01:00:26,938 --> 01:00:28,350
stands for Howie Jacobson.

637
01:00:28,350 --> 01:00:28,840
H.J.

638
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:30,093
at Plant Yourself dot com.

639
01:00:30,093 --> 01:00:30,773
Drop me a line.

640
01:00:30,773 --> 01:00:32,057
Let me know what you think.

641
01:00:32,057 --> 01:00:32,416
All right.

642
01:00:32,416 --> 01:00:33,788
That's it for this week.

643
01:00:33,788 --> 01:00:35,621
As always, be well, my friends.