So as we're making this episode,
the Middle East
2
00:00:03,169 --> 00:00:06,172
is continuing to experience
significant conflict,
3
00:00:06,172 --> 00:00:09,968
particularly around the Gaza Strip
and with the nation of Israel.
4
00:00:10,343 --> 00:00:13,722
So in this episode we discuss
how should Christians be viewing
5
00:00:13,722 --> 00:00:15,473
the current nation state of Israel?
6
00:00:15,473 --> 00:00:18,810
How does that relate to the church
and how should we be thinking about this
7
00:00:19,019 --> 00:00:22,272
in proper terms theologically versus
8
00:00:22,272 --> 00:00:24,232
the current political entities?
9
00:00:29,696 --> 00:00:30,238
Well, Paul
10
00:00:30,238 --> 00:00:33,742
Lamicela, Welcome back
to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.
11
00:00:34,075 --> 00:00:35,368
So, current
12
00:00:35,618 --> 00:00:39,956
events is once again
centered around the nation of Israel.
13
00:00:40,373 --> 00:00:44,335
And we're going to take a bit of a dive
into that topic today.
14
00:00:44,753 --> 00:00:49,257
Yeah, we're recording this early 2024,
so I'm not sure when it will be released,
15
00:00:49,257 --> 00:00:52,427
but right in the middle of yet
another war,
16
00:00:52,427 --> 00:00:56,014
particularly in Gaza, in the Gaza Strip
with Israel versus Hamas.
17
00:00:56,556 --> 00:00:59,017
And of course, that's bringing up
18
00:00:59,017 --> 00:01:02,812
a lot of well, obviously
a lot of feelings around the world
19
00:01:02,854 --> 00:01:04,522
on who's right,
who's wrong. All this stuff.
20
00:01:04,522 --> 00:01:05,106
Sure, whatever.
21
00:01:05,106 --> 00:01:05,940
But this podcast,
I think we should contextualize
22
00:01:05,940 --> 00:01:07,067
But this podcast,
I think we should contextualize
23
00:01:07,067 --> 00:01:09,194
But this podcast,
I think we should contextualize
24
00:01:09,194 --> 00:01:13,656
and say we're talking about specifically
the nation state of Israel and the church.
25
00:01:14,074 --> 00:01:16,117
Do you want to,
Do you want to give a little more context
26
00:01:16,117 --> 00:01:17,494
of your approach so the people don’t,
27
00:01:17,494 --> 00:01:19,287
kind of misunderstand
what we're trying to do here?
28
00:01:19,287 --> 00:01:22,123
yeah. So that's important. So
29
00:01:23,124 --> 00:01:25,043
what we're not talking about
30
00:01:25,043 --> 00:01:30,548
is really politically the conflict
that's kind of not really our...
31
00:01:30,715 --> 00:01:35,095
And I think both of us,
all of us have very strong, you know,
32
00:01:35,345 --> 00:01:38,765
concerns, sympathies for
what's going on in that part of the world
33
00:01:38,765 --> 00:01:42,519
and specifically things that that
the Jewish people have endured in their
34
00:01:42,936 --> 00:01:45,814
in the last hundred years
and beyond with antisemitism
35
00:01:45,814 --> 00:01:49,359
and with neighbors wanting them
eradicated and stuff like that.
36
00:01:49,734 --> 00:01:53,863
But what we're talking about today
isn't so much
37
00:01:54,072 --> 00:01:59,828
that as it is the
the question that sometimes comes up.
38
00:01:59,828 --> 00:02:02,288
Along with that, though
it is technically a distinct question.
39
00:02:02,288 --> 00:02:06,167
We're dealing with the distinct question
of when we see stuff like this happen
40
00:02:06,167 --> 00:02:08,670
or when we think about the modern nation
state of Israel,
41
00:02:08,670 --> 00:02:11,589
what connection does
this have to biblical prophecy
42
00:02:11,589 --> 00:02:15,218
and what does connection
does the nation, what relationship
43
00:02:15,218 --> 00:02:18,179
does the nation state, the modern nation
state of Israel have to the church?
44
00:02:18,179 --> 00:02:19,055
So it's that
45
00:02:19,055 --> 00:02:22,851
prophecy and theological question
that we're, I think, wanted to talk about,
46
00:02:23,434 --> 00:02:27,730
simply because it's on more people's minds
due to the current events.
47
00:02:28,314 --> 00:02:30,859
So the whole, like,
48
00:02:30,859 --> 00:02:34,821
Israel and the church and all of this is
so part of the American,
49
00:02:35,029 --> 00:02:38,658
particularly American evangelical scene,
but also our Anabaptist people as well.
50
00:02:39,701 --> 00:02:41,161
It seems
51
00:02:41,161 --> 00:02:44,747
to me as I go around and interact
with our people, that there is this
52
00:02:45,331 --> 00:02:48,710
basically underlying assumption
that, well, of course, like Israel,
53
00:02:48,793 --> 00:02:51,921
the present day,
I should say nation state that exists
54
00:02:51,921 --> 00:02:55,383
now, is blessed by God is favorite
of God is whatever, whatever.
55
00:02:56,301 --> 00:03:00,013
It's not often very articulated that
I've experienced, but just kind of this
56
00:03:00,013 --> 00:03:04,225
this natural bias towards
well of course that this is God's people.
57
00:03:04,642 --> 00:03:07,061
And I would like to hear you explain.
58
00:03:07,061 --> 00:03:10,064
Okay, so like where does that idea
come from? And,
59
00:03:10,982 --> 00:03:12,150
Well, yeah, let's start with that.
60
00:03:12,150 --> 00:03:15,320
Like, let's define that a bit
and what, where did that come from?
61
00:03:15,528 --> 00:03:17,238
Honestly,
62
00:03:17,238 --> 00:03:20,241
Largely
it's a product of dispensationalism.
63
00:03:20,491 --> 00:03:23,494
So this is a kind of theological
64
00:03:24,495 --> 00:03:28,625
movement or set of beliefs that arose
65
00:03:29,209 --> 00:03:31,628
really about a little over 100 years ago,
66
00:03:31,628 --> 00:03:34,714
sort of at the tail end or so, the 1800s.
67
00:03:34,714 --> 00:03:37,217
And then was pretty popular in the 1900s.
68
00:03:37,217 --> 00:03:38,009
Kind of arose
69
00:03:40,053 --> 00:03:43,681
kind of it was started by this
this British
70
00:03:44,182 --> 00:03:47,185
Plymouth
brethren guy named John Nelson Darby
71
00:03:47,310 --> 00:03:51,272
and then kind of exported
to the United States and became really
72
00:03:51,272 --> 00:03:55,610
popular among conservative evangelicals
73
00:03:55,610 --> 00:03:59,864
for a long time in the in the 1900s. And.
74
00:04:00,490 --> 00:04:01,908
Has largely died.
75
00:04:01,908 --> 00:04:07,163
Mostly died out in sort of academic
circles or been modified
76
00:04:07,163 --> 00:04:11,167
so much that a lot of the key
distinctness are mostly gone.
77
00:04:11,626 --> 00:04:14,504
So modern forms of it
78
00:04:14,504 --> 00:04:17,507
are are pretty
pretty tame compared to what used to be.
79
00:04:17,924 --> 00:04:21,052
But it's still part,
it hasn't died out in popular
80
00:04:21,636 --> 00:04:23,721
popular thought, I guess.
81
00:04:23,721 --> 00:04:26,724
And one of the, for our purposes
one of the big
82
00:04:27,392 --> 00:04:30,395
the key
83
00:04:30,603 --> 00:04:32,855
distinctives of this way of thinking
84
00:04:32,855 --> 00:04:37,568
was initially this sharp distinction
between Israel and the church.
85
00:04:38,444 --> 00:04:41,406
So in the original dispensationalism,
86
00:04:41,614 --> 00:04:44,242
there were two peoples of God
87
00:04:44,242 --> 00:04:46,661
and Israel and the church,
88
00:04:46,661 --> 00:04:50,290
and there were promises
made in the Old Testament to Israel
89
00:04:50,290 --> 00:04:54,669
that would have to be fulfilled
in like ethnic national Israel.
90
00:04:55,003 --> 00:04:57,880
And then other promises
that would be fulfilled by the church
91
00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,675
in sort of heaven or something,
and a heavenly setting.
92
00:05:00,675 --> 00:05:02,468
And they had sort of two trajectories.
93
00:05:02,468 --> 00:05:04,679
They were like two trajectories
and in some cases
94
00:05:04,679 --> 00:05:07,307
even two different ways of salvation
and stuff like that originally.
95
00:05:07,307 --> 00:05:08,057
okay. Okay.
96
00:05:08,057 --> 00:05:10,518
That's really helpful context
because I've heard
97
00:05:10,518 --> 00:05:13,396
people say things like that
and I'm just I'm kind of confused.
98
00:05:13,396 --> 00:05:15,273
I'm like, okay,
I don't quite understand your framework.
99
00:05:15,273 --> 00:05:16,316
So that's the framework.
100
00:05:16,316 --> 00:05:19,652
Early
1900s, late 1800s were saying, right.
101
00:05:19,652 --> 00:05:22,655
And then that like again,
that morphed a lot.
102
00:05:22,655 --> 00:05:27,285
So the, the two people's of God idea
got ditched, you know,
103
00:05:27,285 --> 00:05:30,455
because it was so really, so counter
104
00:05:30,455 --> 00:05:33,458
to everything the New Testament believes.
105
00:05:33,583 --> 00:05:36,502
And yet the what remained
one of the things that remained
106
00:05:36,502 --> 00:05:41,090
was the idea that that there was still
were still some promises or some
107
00:05:42,717 --> 00:05:44,844
yes. Some promises that were
108
00:05:44,844 --> 00:05:49,557
meant to be fulfilled
by national ethnic Israel.
109
00:05:49,974 --> 00:05:52,393
Now that those words are important,
because what we're
110
00:05:52,393 --> 00:05:54,645
we have to distinguish
between talking about
111
00:05:54,645 --> 00:05:57,940
is there some significant future
significance for ethnic Jews.
112
00:05:59,484 --> 00:06:03,279
That's a separate question from is there
significance for ethnic national Israel?
113
00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,657
So a nation state,
a political entity called Israel.
114
00:06:06,824 --> 00:06:10,411
So we're not
this is where we're separating from maybe,
115
00:06:10,411 --> 00:06:15,375
you know, the Jewish people,
wherever that may be, versus
116
00:06:15,500 --> 00:06:19,045
a specific piece of land geography,
like a political entity.
117
00:06:19,212 --> 00:06:20,963
political entity on a specific piece
118
00:06:20,963 --> 00:06:24,300
of geography with ethnic Israel
so ethnic national Israel.
119
00:06:25,093 --> 00:06:26,260
So yeah.
120
00:06:26,260 --> 00:06:30,848
So that's kind of remained in the
in the in the evangelical consciousness
121
00:06:31,057 --> 00:06:34,143
among some I mean you know it's Yeah.
122
00:06:34,143 --> 00:06:36,187
Among the heirs of the
dispensationalism I suppose
123
00:06:37,271 --> 00:06:38,940
so yeah.
124
00:06:38,940 --> 00:06:40,650
That's, that's a bit of the background.
125
00:06:40,650 --> 00:06:44,612
So again Paul like we,
I think that Paul in Romans 9 to 11
126
00:06:44,987 --> 00:06:47,990
sees there being some future.
127
00:06:48,116 --> 00:06:53,788
I think he envisions that his fellow,
his cousins, if you will, ethnic Jews
128
00:06:54,038 --> 00:06:57,291
someday will come to Jesus
in greater numbers than they are now.
129
00:06:57,792 --> 00:06:59,293
I think that's there's debate over
130
00:06:59,293 --> 00:07:02,296
what Paul thinks there,
but I think that's a very, very likely.
131
00:07:02,338 --> 00:07:06,509
But that's a separate question to that's
that's not the same thing as saying
132
00:07:07,135 --> 00:07:10,680
is there a theological
and prophetic significance to a certain
133
00:07:11,180 --> 00:07:15,143
that has to be fulfilled in Israel
as a nation state, a political
134
00:07:15,476 --> 00:07:20,064
as well as ethnic entity,
and not by sort of the church or whatever.
135
00:07:20,273 --> 00:07:24,193
So this is fascinating
because we just did and I'm assuming we’ll
136
00:07:24,193 --> 00:07:27,447
release this one immediately
before the, what we're recording right now.
137
00:07:27,447 --> 00:07:31,075
But this how to read the Book
of Revelation episode that we did.
138
00:07:31,075 --> 00:07:33,911
So if you haven't seen that
you all listening, go check that out,
139
00:07:33,911 --> 00:07:37,290
because I think that would be some
helpful context for this conversation,
140
00:07:37,915 --> 00:07:42,503
because in that episode
we just waded straight into a lot of the
141
00:07:42,712 --> 00:07:46,007
what I call like pop culture
Christian fiction, you know, left behind.
142
00:07:46,007 --> 00:07:49,010
And, you know, some of these guys
are writing, I mean, currently
143
00:07:49,135 --> 00:07:54,307
all these extremely popular novels
around future prophecies being fulfilled.
144
00:07:54,307 --> 00:07:54,932
You know, today.
145
00:07:54,932 --> 00:07:55,683
And it's all around
146
00:07:55,683 --> 00:07:58,895
like the current nation state of Israel
and Iran and Russia and all this stuff.
147
00:07:59,812 --> 00:08:03,566
So it's very political,
but it's also that they're taking current
148
00:08:03,566 --> 00:08:08,029
political entities and bundling them in
with what we see in Ezekiel
149
00:08:08,029 --> 00:08:09,280
and Revelation and Daniel
and all this stuff.
150
00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:09,780
Yeah.
151
00:08:09,780 --> 00:08:14,202
So what would you say
to someone who is doing that, essentially?
152
00:08:14,285 --> 00:08:15,912
I mean, you know what I mean?
153
00:08:15,912 --> 00:08:19,165
That's kind of a broad question
and we hit it from a different angle
154
00:08:19,165 --> 00:08:20,249
in that previous episode.
155
00:08:20,249 --> 00:08:24,170
But specifically when we think
of Israel, the country today,
156
00:08:25,171 --> 00:08:27,131
how would
you respond to someone like that?
157
00:08:27,131 --> 00:08:29,258
So I have there's one main question that I
158
00:08:29,258 --> 00:08:32,428
that I want to ask, and then I think that
that question needs to be answered
159
00:08:32,428 --> 00:08:35,473
by what the prophets
and what the New Testament authors think.
160
00:08:35,515 --> 00:08:38,226
But before we get there, there's three
quick things that I think we have to say.
161
00:08:38,226 --> 00:08:42,271
First one, I think it is important to say
as we go through this, that
162
00:08:42,438 --> 00:08:46,817
that antisemitism has been a huge problem
in the history of the church
163
00:08:47,568 --> 00:08:51,781
and I think is a particularly heinous,
heinous sin.
164
00:08:52,323 --> 00:08:57,036
And we, what we are,
what we're saying here today
165
00:08:57,495 --> 00:09:00,498
may may be uncomfortable
for some people, right.
166
00:09:01,207 --> 00:09:04,710
With the way
that they're used to thinking,
167
00:09:05,211 --> 00:09:10,967
but we want to affirm so much
that any form of antisemitism
168
00:09:11,592 --> 00:09:15,429
is absolutely outside
of the purview of the Bible.
169
00:09:15,596 --> 00:09:18,516
And no Christians should be,
170
00:09:18,516 --> 00:09:21,519
should be guilty of
of going that direction.
171
00:09:21,561 --> 00:09:24,981
So people may hear us and say,
my goodness, are you not supporting
172
00:09:24,981 --> 00:09:27,858
Israel? No, no, that's not
that's really not what we're saying.
173
00:09:27,858 --> 00:09:32,280
And we, you know, that
needs to be understood as we kind of,
174
00:09:32,905 --> 00:09:36,117
as we kind of maybe change the way
some people think about the nation
175
00:09:36,117 --> 00:09:36,867
state of Israel.
176
00:09:36,867 --> 00:09:37,118
Okay.
177
00:09:37,118 --> 00:09:39,996
So that's just,
I just want to keep reiterating that.
178
00:09:39,996 --> 00:09:42,832
But then also, I think one of the,
179
00:09:42,832 --> 00:09:45,918
along with that, what I think
180
00:09:45,918 --> 00:09:48,921
the New Testament teaches is,
181
00:09:49,088 --> 00:09:52,091
is not what we, what
some people call replacement theology.
182
00:09:52,717 --> 00:09:54,135
So you heard this term.
183
00:09:54,135 --> 00:09:56,304
Yeah, I have,
but I don't fully understand it.
184
00:09:56,304 --> 00:09:57,221
So explain that.
185
00:09:57,221 --> 00:10:01,642
Yeah So I think what replacement
theology refers to is basically that,
186
00:10:01,642 --> 00:10:05,646
you know, that the church in the New
Testament replaces Israel in the old.
187
00:10:06,355 --> 00:10:08,149
Or something like that. Okay.
188
00:10:08,149 --> 00:10:09,358
And so you can kind of,
189
00:10:09,358 --> 00:10:12,278
you know, read the Old Testament
and cross out Israel and plop
190
00:10:12,278 --> 00:10:15,615
in the church or something like that,
as though they were two distinct entities.
191
00:10:16,032 --> 00:10:20,703
And the one sort of lost its way
and is extinct now.
192
00:10:20,703 --> 00:10:23,956
And the church
kind of replaces that role in God’s...
193
00:10:23,998 --> 00:10:27,001
So I don't think the New Testament
teaches that.
194
00:10:27,209 --> 00:10:30,588
I think it teaches something
a lot more organic than that.
195
00:10:31,005 --> 00:10:32,298
So we'll get to that.
196
00:10:32,298 --> 00:10:35,009
But but I just want to say,
I don't think replacement theology is
197
00:10:35,009 --> 00:10:38,929
the right, is the right way of thinking
about how the church and Israel
198
00:10:38,929 --> 00:10:41,265
relate to each other in the Bible. Okay.
199
00:10:41,265 --> 00:10:45,478
And then the last thing I'll say is
that when we're used to talking about,
200
00:10:45,603 --> 00:10:46,854
and this is really relevant to where
201
00:10:46,854 --> 00:10:50,274
we're going next, but where people tend
to be used to talking about
202
00:10:51,067 --> 00:10:52,860
when they think of eschatology,
203
00:10:52,860 --> 00:10:55,863
they're thinking of like the last
few years before Jesus comes back.
204
00:10:56,530 --> 00:10:59,492
That's kind of popular usage of the term.
205
00:10:59,492 --> 00:11:02,536
But what? But actually, for the Bible,
206
00:11:03,496 --> 00:11:04,664
Christianity is, as
207
00:11:04,664 --> 00:11:07,667
all of Christianity
is, eschatology, by definition.
208
00:11:08,167 --> 00:11:11,170
because what Christianity is simply
209
00:11:11,379 --> 00:11:14,340
the understanding
210
00:11:14,340 --> 00:11:17,343
that the vision of the prophets
is being fulfilled.
211
00:11:18,386 --> 00:11:21,972
Well, okay,
that is a whole new thought for me because
212
00:11:22,556 --> 00:11:26,060
it's so common
in, again, popular Christianity,
213
00:11:26,060 --> 00:11:27,103
whatever, here in America
214
00:11:27,103 --> 00:11:30,439
to kind of squish all of that
into the last seven years before
215
00:11:30,439 --> 00:11:31,816
whatever, and the Antichrist,
this and that.
216
00:11:31,816 --> 00:11:35,152
And it's, I've never heard
it framed quite like that.
217
00:11:35,152 --> 00:11:38,072
But that that seems to make sense to me.
I'm going to think about that.
218
00:11:38,072 --> 00:11:39,615
the prophets have one big vision.
219
00:11:39,615 --> 00:11:41,951
They're not giving little.
220
00:11:41,951 --> 00:11:45,204
It's not like a bullet point
list of various random prophecies
221
00:11:45,204 --> 00:11:47,998
that you can check off when you see
individual ones being fulfilled.
222
00:11:47,998 --> 00:11:53,003
It's one grand vision of days are coming
when I will inaugurate a new covenant.
223
00:11:53,421 --> 00:11:58,050
You know, days are coming when
I will send a new David, Days are coming,
224
00:11:58,050 --> 00:12:00,219
when Yahweh will return to his people
and restore
225
00:12:00,219 --> 00:12:03,973
Jerusalem and the days are coming when
there will be a new heavens in New Earth.
226
00:12:03,973 --> 00:12:05,641
It's this whole grand vision
227
00:12:05,641 --> 00:12:08,644
of the days of restoration
that what I call the days of fulfillment.
228
00:12:09,228 --> 00:12:12,773
And when Jesus shows up on the scene
and announces
229
00:12:13,107 --> 00:12:15,776
the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand,
or when he stands up in the
230
00:12:15,776 --> 00:12:20,156
synagogue and reads Luke
the Spirit of Yahweh is upon me,
231
00:12:20,156 --> 00:12:24,618
or when Peter stands up at Pentecost
and says, Hey, this
232
00:12:25,077 --> 00:12:27,079
the speaking in tongues,
this is evidence
233
00:12:27,079 --> 00:12:29,123
that the vision of the prophets
is come true.
234
00:12:29,123 --> 00:12:33,085
Their belief is that vision,
the days of restoration, God
235
00:12:33,085 --> 00:12:37,548
returning to his people
and blessing them, forgiving their sins,
236
00:12:37,757 --> 00:12:40,843
restoring them
so that they obey him with,
237
00:12:41,302 --> 00:12:45,055
from the heart, ultimately resurrection,
238
00:12:45,055 --> 00:12:48,851
new creation and all that
and the incoming of the Gentiles.
239
00:12:48,851 --> 00:12:50,686
That's
another part of the vision of the prophets
240
00:12:50,686 --> 00:12:53,355
that all of that vision is coming true.
241
00:12:53,355 --> 00:12:55,691
And that's what
the latter days
242
00:12:55,691 --> 00:12:59,779
or the last days refers to
is that whole era.
243
00:13:00,362 --> 00:13:04,074
So this is important because it keeps
us from being able to just
244
00:13:05,034 --> 00:13:07,870
squeeze some of that stuff into the last
245
00:13:07,870 --> 00:13:11,749
kind of think of the last few years before
Jesus returns as this distinct moment
246
00:13:11,749 --> 00:13:13,042
in redemptive history. It's not.
247
00:13:13,042 --> 00:13:16,712
It's the culmination of the days
that Jesus inaugurated.
248
00:13:17,922 --> 00:13:19,548
because. Okay, interesting.
249
00:13:19,548 --> 00:13:19,757
Because.
250
00:13:19,757 --> 00:13:23,093
Yeah, and I can kind of anticipate
the comments that will come
251
00:13:23,093 --> 00:13:26,222
from people reading them, like, wait,
that I don't read it that way.
252
00:13:26,222 --> 00:13:28,432
You know, I, I think it's this.
253
00:13:28,432 --> 00:13:34,939
So like Paul,
when Paul is, goes and stands
254
00:13:34,939 --> 00:13:38,067
in front of Agrippa and Agrippa is like,
what, What have you been doing?
255
00:13:38,067 --> 00:13:38,943
He says, Well actually
256
00:13:38,943 --> 00:13:41,946
all I've been doing is what the prophets
and Moses said would happen,
257
00:13:41,946 --> 00:13:44,448
that the Messiah would suffer
and that rising,
258
00:13:44,448 --> 00:13:46,200
that he would be the
first to rise from the dead,
259
00:13:47,159 --> 00:13:48,494
the first
to rise from that, in other words,
260
00:13:48,494 --> 00:13:51,497
the first of the general resurrection,
the beginning of the resurrection,
261
00:13:51,914 --> 00:13:55,251
And that he would proclaim light
to our people and to the Gentiles.
262
00:13:55,334 --> 00:13:57,419
He's like, I'm just doing what
263
00:13:57,419 --> 00:14:00,756
What the prophet said was,
I recognize that those days have dawned.
264
00:14:01,340 --> 00:14:04,218
The outpouring of the spirit.
265
00:14:04,218 --> 00:14:07,805
And I'm just doing what
you know what the prophet said.
266
00:14:08,305 --> 00:14:11,141
He thinks that that's his his message,
his vision,
267
00:14:11,141 --> 00:14:14,520
his role is to
268
00:14:15,688 --> 00:14:17,815
is to spread.
269
00:14:17,815 --> 00:14:20,609
What Jesus has started, has launched, i.e.
270
00:14:20,609 --> 00:14:23,571
the fulfillment of the prophets.
It's all over the place.
271
00:14:23,571 --> 00:14:28,450
And you can't understand the New Testament
without recognizing that what it is,
272
00:14:28,993 --> 00:14:33,038
is is the fulfillment of all of God's
promises from the prophets.
273
00:14:33,205 --> 00:14:35,749
It's one vision being fulfilled.
274
00:14:35,749 --> 00:14:38,002
So that being the case, then.
275
00:14:39,086 --> 00:14:39,503
Where.
276
00:14:39,503 --> 00:14:42,381
Where do does the
277
00:14:42,381 --> 00:14:44,925
what is the relationship
now between the nation state of Israel?
278
00:14:44,925 --> 00:14:47,303
Like like now we've got some good context.
279
00:14:47,303 --> 00:14:49,138
Okay, So now here we are.
280
00:14:49,138 --> 00:14:50,723
no, that's
281
00:14:50,723 --> 00:14:55,019
so important because it's explain
the framework of where you're coming from
282
00:14:55,019 --> 00:14:57,229
because that is a pretty different like,
283
00:14:57,229 --> 00:15:00,232
again, I've heard the whole
well the end days are coming like
284
00:15:00,399 --> 00:15:03,152
like that's a thing that's going to happen
is going to be a short period of time.
285
00:15:03,152 --> 00:15:03,986
You know, this
286
00:15:03,986 --> 00:15:05,821
they'll go through Daniel
and it's like seven years, this
287
00:15:05,821 --> 00:15:07,740
or that or tribulation
here, there, whatever.
288
00:15:07,740 --> 00:15:09,116
Lots of different theories.
289
00:15:09,116 --> 00:15:13,245
It does seem to push
a lot of these prophecies
290
00:15:13,245 --> 00:15:16,373
into some undetermined period
in the future.
291
00:15:16,373 --> 00:15:19,001
That somehow distinct from now. Yeah.
292
00:15:19,001 --> 00:15:22,338
Or even even some of these things
in the New Testament that they're talking
293
00:15:22,338 --> 00:15:25,883
about the end of time and whatever,
as that's out there somewhere,
294
00:15:26,508 --> 00:15:28,594
which always struck me as like,
okay, does that mean
295
00:15:28,594 --> 00:15:30,471
they're not relevant for us right now?
296
00:15:30,471 --> 00:15:32,222
Then like,
I will always kind of have questions
297
00:15:32,222 --> 00:15:34,016
and you're saying,
no, that's not really the case.
298
00:15:34,016 --> 00:15:37,227
There are some things
that obviously still remain in the future,
299
00:15:37,227 --> 00:15:39,229
like we're still waiting
for the final resurrection
300
00:15:39,229 --> 00:15:41,690
and the new creation, like the creation,
but those things are of a piece.
301
00:15:41,690 --> 00:15:43,108
and the new creation, like the creation,
but those things are of a piece.
302
00:15:43,108 --> 00:15:45,653
They're part of the same vision
of the prophets.
303
00:15:45,653 --> 00:15:49,740
It's one grand vision
that it's already not yet part.
304
00:15:49,949 --> 00:15:52,618
We've been swept into it,
305
00:15:52,618 --> 00:15:54,161
but we're still waiting
for the rest of it.
306
00:15:54,161 --> 00:15:57,790
So there is we're still waiting for stuff,
but it's one
307
00:15:58,123 --> 00:16:00,709
kind of big vision and not sort of a bunch
of random things that we can check off
308
00:16:00,709 --> 00:16:02,586
kind of big vision and not sort of a bunch
of random things that we can check off
309
00:16:02,586 --> 00:16:07,049
one by one and are not part of a bigger
vision.
310
00:16:07,216 --> 00:16:08,133
Okay, So.
311
00:16:08,133 --> 00:16:12,388
So the question, then the big question
I think to ask
312
00:16:12,554 --> 00:16:16,141
is in thinking of the nation
313
00:16:16,141 --> 00:16:19,311
state of Israel and the church is
just one question honestly.
314
00:16:20,479 --> 00:16:23,023
And that question is who do the prophets
315
00:16:23,023 --> 00:16:26,902
and the New Testament
think that the true king of Israel is?
316
00:16:27,861 --> 00:16:30,864
That's the only question
I think you have to answer.
317
00:16:31,198 --> 00:16:34,576
So who do the prophets
and the New Testament authors?
318
00:16:34,576 --> 00:16:36,328
The disciples, Jesus himself?
319
00:16:36,328 --> 00:16:39,081
Who do they think
the true King of Israel is?
320
00:16:39,081 --> 00:16:40,833
Would that not be Jesus himself?
321
00:16:40,833 --> 00:16:42,668
Well, one would expect that to be the.
322
00:16:42,668 --> 00:16:44,670
Yeah, the one would think so.
323
00:16:44,670 --> 00:16:48,007
But if that's the case
that has massive implications with what,
324
00:16:48,507 --> 00:16:51,176
with who that what the Bible thinks,
what the prophets
325
00:16:51,176 --> 00:16:55,097
and what the New Testament are thinking of
when they speak of political Israel.
326
00:16:55,764 --> 00:16:57,891
okay.
327
00:16:57,891 --> 00:16:59,685
I got you so.
328
00:16:59,685 --> 00:17:02,438
Because we're used to saying of course
Jesus is the king, but we actually tend
329
00:17:02,438 --> 00:17:06,275
to think of that only in some sort
of theological and spiritual sense.
330
00:17:06,734 --> 00:17:09,903
So. Okay, yeah, let me make sure
I can wrap my head around this.
331
00:17:10,112 --> 00:17:13,032
So if that were the case,
if the current nation state of Israel
332
00:17:13,032 --> 00:17:16,035
were a fulfillment of these things,
Jesus would have to be
333
00:17:16,201 --> 00:17:19,496
the King essentially
by definition of that nation.
334
00:17:19,496 --> 00:17:23,751
From the Bible's
perspective, that's what Israel is.
335
00:17:24,752 --> 00:17:26,920
Okay, because so let's
336
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:31,508
So if we think about the prophets, right,
the prophets speak about so, you know,
337
00:17:32,551 --> 00:17:35,929
Isaiah speaks about
how God will raise up a a root
338
00:17:35,971 --> 00:17:39,600
a branch from the stump of Jessie,
a descendant of David,
339
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,437
to rule over his people forever
and and bring about
340
00:17:43,437 --> 00:17:47,107
blessing and judgment on the nations
and all this sort of thing.
341
00:17:47,775 --> 00:17:50,652
The spirit of the Lord will rest on him
and whatever.
342
00:17:50,652 --> 00:17:54,198
Ezekiel 34
343
00:17:54,573 --> 00:17:58,994
and other places speak of of Yahweh
coming back to shepherd his people
344
00:17:58,994 --> 00:18:00,537
because all the shepherds were bad.
345
00:18:00,537 --> 00:18:02,706
The leaders of Israel at the time
were terrible.
346
00:18:02,706 --> 00:18:03,373
It's funny.
347
00:18:03,373 --> 00:18:06,835
I mean, it talks about how they instead of
taking care of the sheep, they eat them,
348
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:08,504
which I get.
349
00:18:08,504 --> 00:18:14,259
I mean, a lamb chops are like admittedly
good, but that's so, Yahweh says,
350
00:18:14,259 --> 00:18:18,555
I'm going to I will come back to seek
the lost, to bind up the stray, whatever.
351
00:18:19,056 --> 00:18:20,766
I will be their King, their shepherd.
352
00:18:20,766 --> 00:18:21,266
And then he says,
353
00:18:21,266 --> 00:18:24,353
I will send my servant, David,
to be their shepherd and their king.
354
00:18:25,312 --> 00:18:25,896
And then.
355
00:18:25,896 --> 00:18:27,439
Or in Jeremiah.
356
00:18:27,439 --> 00:18:29,775
It speaks of the people.
357
00:18:29,775 --> 00:18:34,738
They will in the days to come, serve
Yahweh, and David, their king.
358
00:18:34,988 --> 00:18:38,033
Like the whole hope of the prophets is
that God will send this
359
00:18:38,033 --> 00:18:41,203
new David figure, the Messiah. And.
360
00:18:41,787 --> 00:18:44,873
And that that would be.
361
00:18:45,207 --> 00:18:47,584
That would mean the restoration of Israel.
362
00:18:47,584 --> 00:18:49,711
That's what the prophets were looking for.
363
00:18:49,711 --> 00:18:52,965
And that's what the people in exile
were looking for God to restore His people
364
00:18:53,632 --> 00:18:56,844
by sending David the king.
365
00:18:57,469 --> 00:18:58,428
Right.
366
00:18:58,428 --> 00:19:01,348
And for the, from the prophets perspective,
367
00:19:01,348 --> 00:19:04,309
if you would reject.
368
00:19:04,309 --> 00:19:07,563
If you would refuse to submit to that
the true king of Israel.
369
00:19:07,604 --> 00:19:11,316
And again, they're not talking king in
some sort of Christian spiritual sense.
370
00:19:11,358 --> 00:19:11,984
Right.
371
00:19:11,984 --> 00:19:17,823
But the actual, like legit king
who had massive spiritual significance
372
00:19:17,823 --> 00:19:20,826
but was legitimately
like actually the king.
373
00:19:22,077 --> 00:19:22,369
and if
374
00:19:22,369 --> 00:19:25,455
one were to rebel, not submit,
not be loyal to that.
375
00:19:25,455 --> 00:19:28,458
King one would be cut off from the people.
376
00:19:28,667 --> 00:19:29,710
You can't be part of it.
377
00:19:29,710 --> 00:19:31,837
You couldn't be part of Israel.
378
00:19:31,837 --> 00:19:34,631
From the prophets perspective,
there's really no category
379
00:19:34,631 --> 00:19:38,135
for being part of Israel and yet refusing
380
00:19:38,135 --> 00:19:41,138
to submit to the new David.
381
00:19:42,723 --> 00:19:43,056
Right?
382
00:19:43,056 --> 00:19:44,433
I mean, you're out.
383
00:19:44,433 --> 00:19:47,519
You that's treason and that's,
and you're failing to go along with
384
00:19:48,437 --> 00:19:52,024
you can't just, you know, be in a kingdom,
especially God's kingdom,
385
00:19:52,316 --> 00:19:55,444
and be like, yeah, but I'm just rejecting
I'm not going to, I'm
386
00:19:55,444 --> 00:19:59,031
so not going to like,
submit to the King of Israel.
387
00:19:59,281 --> 00:20:00,282
Okay.
388
00:20:00,282 --> 00:20:02,784
Yes, but I'm anticipating the comments
to say, well, yeah,
389
00:20:02,784 --> 00:20:04,828
but that's going to happen at some point.
390
00:20:04,828 --> 00:20:08,040
But until then,
this is like what we currently have.
391
00:20:08,123 --> 00:20:08,832
The current nation
392
00:20:08,832 --> 00:20:12,628
state of Israel is just a part of the,
I don't I'm making this up as I go.
393
00:20:12,628 --> 00:20:15,088
I'm not fully familiar
with all this stuff, but they would say,
394
00:20:15,088 --> 00:20:18,342
Well, yeah, but it still applies to all
these prophecies about the end of time.
395
00:20:18,342 --> 00:20:20,302
And but remember,
396
00:20:20,302 --> 00:20:23,931
from the prophets perspective,
when they speak of Israel in the future,
397
00:20:24,097 --> 00:20:28,602
they're speaking of the people
who are ruled by that.
398
00:20:28,602 --> 00:20:30,979
KING That's what they're thinking.
399
00:20:30,979 --> 00:20:33,315
They're not thinking
some other strange thing down
400
00:20:33,315 --> 00:20:36,735
the future that has nothing to do with
the king of, with the Davidic messiah.
401
00:20:37,027 --> 00:20:38,570
They have no category for that.
402
00:20:38,570 --> 00:20:42,324
So when again,
because it's such a easy trope to use,
403
00:20:42,324 --> 00:20:45,702
but when Tim LaHaye is writing
about all these wild prophecies,
404
00:20:45,702 --> 00:20:48,747
they get fulfilled, you know, and it's
surrounding the nation state of Israel.
405
00:20:48,747 --> 00:20:51,750
And so he's writing mostly in the
nineties, early 2000s left Behind series.
406
00:20:53,460 --> 00:20:55,712
What you're saying is those
407
00:20:55,712 --> 00:20:58,507
that could never be a legitimate
fulfillment of those prophecies,
408
00:20:58,507 --> 00:20:59,007
because that's
409
00:20:59,007 --> 00:21:01,260
that's talking
about a completely different entity
410
00:21:01,260 --> 00:21:03,220
than what the prophets in the Bible
are actually referring to Yeah.
411
00:21:03,220 --> 00:21:05,138
If you
if you would give that to the prophets
412
00:21:05,138 --> 00:21:08,976
and say look at this, this is amazing,
they would say, wow, that's great.
413
00:21:08,976 --> 00:21:11,228
The Messiah is,
is doing all sorts of stuff.
414
00:21:11,228 --> 00:21:12,771
And you'd be like, no, no, no, no.
415
00:21:12,771 --> 00:21:14,398
This has nothing to do with the Messiah.
416
00:21:14,398 --> 00:21:15,232
And they'd be like,
417
00:21:15,232 --> 00:21:16,191
well then I guess
418
00:21:16,191 --> 00:21:19,194
it doesn't really have anything to do
with what we were talking about,
419
00:21:19,528 --> 00:21:21,905
because again, it's one big vision
420
00:21:21,905 --> 00:21:25,534
about God restoring his people in
and through the Messiah.
421
00:21:25,534 --> 00:21:29,663
And for them,
that's what Israel can only mean.
422
00:21:29,663 --> 00:21:32,624
The kingdom that God rules through David,
through his servant, David.
423
00:21:33,834 --> 00:21:34,710
That's what they mean.
424
00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:37,254
And so you're doing something.
425
00:21:37,254 --> 00:21:39,047
You're doing violence to what they mean.
426
00:21:39,047 --> 00:21:43,719
If if you try to pull
what they think would be fulfilled
427
00:21:43,719 --> 00:21:48,140
in the age of the Messiah and by him
and sort of pull it in other directions.
428
00:21:48,140 --> 00:21:51,727
I think Now, wouldn't some of these models
split it up to be like, well,
429
00:21:51,727 --> 00:21:53,186
that age of the Messiah is coming,
430
00:21:53,186 --> 00:21:56,231
but it's not here yet,
and in the meantime it's this and
431
00:21:57,232 --> 00:22:00,152
like what we are currently seeing
and therefore it still works
432
00:22:00,152 --> 00:22:01,486
like the kind of split it into.
433
00:22:01,486 --> 00:22:04,823
Yeah, I think I'm following,
I think I'm articulating that.
434
00:22:04,823 --> 00:22:05,157
right?
435
00:22:05,157 --> 00:22:07,617
So that takes us,
I suppose, to a couple of passages
436
00:22:07,617 --> 00:22:10,454
in the New Testament
because I think that interpretation works.
437
00:22:10,454 --> 00:22:12,831
If you don't believe
the Messiah has come yet.
438
00:22:12,831 --> 00:22:16,960
So if you're, if you're a non Christian
Jewish person then that may be right.
439
00:22:17,044 --> 00:22:19,504
Maybe so. Okay. Yeah.
440
00:22:19,504 --> 00:22:20,213
I see what you're saying.
441
00:22:20,213 --> 00:22:23,300
But if you're a Christian, I think that's,
you can't go there
442
00:22:23,300 --> 00:22:28,055
because you have to basically say that
that Jesus
443
00:22:28,221 --> 00:22:31,475
maybe someday will be the Messiah,
but isn't yet right.
444
00:22:32,142 --> 00:22:35,145
And what's fascinating is how... Hold that.
445
00:22:35,228 --> 00:22:36,605
Let me just pause it right there.
446
00:22:36,605 --> 00:22:39,691
You're saying if Jesus would one day be
the Messiah but is not yet.
447
00:22:40,150 --> 00:22:44,154
Would there not be theories out there say,
well yeah because he's, he's come
448
00:22:44,154 --> 00:22:45,447
and like, died for our sins
and all that stuff
449
00:22:45,447 --> 00:22:47,491
but he hasn't come back
as like the reigning king yet.
450
00:22:47,491 --> 00:22:51,370
That's like still to come it's like, it's
still like going to happen at some point.
451
00:22:52,454 --> 00:22:55,874
So it's true that he has not yet
put all his enemies under his feet.
452
00:22:56,083 --> 00:22:56,958
Right.
453
00:22:56,958 --> 00:22:59,920
And yet the New Testament speaks of him as
454
00:23:00,462 --> 00:23:03,465
as being exalted
at the right hand of the Father.
455
00:23:03,757 --> 00:23:06,426
Jesus himself says all authority
after the resurrection
456
00:23:06,426 --> 00:23:11,431
has now been given to me in heaven
and on earth, like the
457
00:23:11,556 --> 00:23:16,269
disciples in Acts speak of use
the Psalms, Psalm
458
00:23:16,353 --> 00:23:19,356
2 and other places to speak of him as
459
00:23:19,398 --> 00:23:22,818
as the reigning rightful Messiah,
that the nations rage
460
00:23:22,818 --> 00:23:25,821
against Him, against Yahweh
and his anointed the Messiah.
461
00:23:25,821 --> 00:23:28,698
But, you know, he's God's enthroned.
462
00:23:28,698 --> 00:23:31,618
He is God’s enthroned, you know, King!
463
00:23:31,618 --> 00:23:35,497
So it's true that he hasn't yet
464
00:23:35,497 --> 00:23:38,500
exercised his judgment
465
00:23:39,251 --> 00:23:42,462
and stuff,
but that that hasn't happened yet.
466
00:23:42,796 --> 00:23:46,341
He hasn't fully established
his kingdom on Earth as it is in heaven.
467
00:23:46,883 --> 00:23:49,010
And yet
468
00:23:50,429 --> 00:23:53,181
it's takes
us, it's actually an analogous situation
469
00:23:53,181 --> 00:23:56,643
to David, I think David's life
where David is anointed
470
00:23:56,643 --> 00:23:59,980
king, he's the rightful king,
but he wanders around for a while before
471
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:05,527
before sort of God gives him
control over his enemies, right?
472
00:24:06,194 --> 00:24:09,239
So, yeah, And again, all of the like
473
00:24:09,489 --> 00:24:12,868
the disciples would would never allow,
474
00:24:14,369 --> 00:24:16,746
you know, to say, well,
475
00:24:16,746 --> 00:24:21,501
we'll give allegiance to some other ruler,
king of Israel, because and you know,
476
00:24:21,793 --> 00:24:24,880
like no Jesus that the whole
the whole idea is Jesus is the Messiah.
477
00:24:25,464 --> 00:24:28,717
And once the Messiah has come,
you, He's the King.
478
00:24:28,717 --> 00:24:31,720
And if he has a weird twists and turns
479
00:24:32,637 --> 00:24:35,182
for how he runs his kingship,
that's kind of his prerogative.
480
00:24:35,182 --> 00:24:37,142
Not ours. Right?
481
00:24:37,142 --> 00:24:40,270
So and this is
I mean, this is how the gospels open up.
482
00:24:40,270 --> 00:24:43,273
So Matthew opens up with
483
00:24:43,773 --> 00:24:46,902
like really highlighting
the Davidic identity of Jesus.
484
00:24:46,943 --> 00:24:49,696
The book of the genealogy of Jesus,
the Messiah, son of David
485
00:24:49,696 --> 00:24:52,657
And then there's these genealogies
that are structured around.
486
00:24:53,074 --> 00:24:57,162
So it goes from Abraham to David,
from David to the exile,
487
00:24:57,162 --> 00:25:01,166
which is the loss of the Davidic kingship,
and then the exile, the loss of
488
00:25:01,166 --> 00:25:03,335
the Davidic kingship
to Jesus being born, i.e.
489
00:25:03,335 --> 00:25:04,878
the return of the Davidic kingship.
490
00:25:06,630 --> 00:25:09,633
And then it's I mean
491
00:25:09,966 --> 00:25:13,136
the wise men, right, are, sorry the
492
00:25:14,387 --> 00:25:18,517
the people that sort of the scribes in the,
and the priests recognize,
493
00:25:18,517 --> 00:25:21,520
they tell Herod and the wise men,
494
00:25:22,354 --> 00:25:25,065
Bethlehem in the land of Judah
are by no means among least
495
00:25:25,065 --> 00:25:26,149
among the rulers of Judah, for from
496
00:25:26,149 --> 00:25:29,069
you shall come a ruler
who will shepherd my people Israel right?
497
00:25:29,069 --> 00:25:32,739
There's this understanding right away
that this
498
00:25:33,448 --> 00:25:38,453
this is the true rightful king of Israel
and or in Lukes Gospel.
499
00:25:39,204 --> 00:25:42,207
We we read that
500
00:25:42,707 --> 00:25:45,710
the Angel
501
00:25:46,002 --> 00:25:50,840
Gabriel speaks to Mary when she announces,
when he announces the birth
502
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:55,011
of the conception and says, don't
be afraid, Mary, you found favor with God.
503
00:25:55,303 --> 00:25:57,097
You will conceive
and you will bear a son.
504
00:25:57,097 --> 00:25:58,723
You shall call his name Jesus.
505
00:25:58,723 --> 00:26:01,476
He will be great and will be called
the son of the most high,
506
00:26:01,476 --> 00:26:04,271
and the Lord God will give to Him
the throne of His father, David,
507
00:26:04,271 --> 00:26:07,482
and He will reign over the house
of Jacob forever and of his kingdom.
508
00:26:07,482 --> 00:26:08,400
There will be no end.
509
00:26:09,693 --> 00:26:13,238
And I mean, that's how Luke chooses
to, you know, kick off his gospel.
510
00:26:13,238 --> 00:26:15,532
And then Zacheriah
511
00:26:15,532 --> 00:26:17,742
says the same thing in his
in the Benedictus.
512
00:26:17,742 --> 00:26:21,663
Blessed be Yahweh God of Israel before
he has visited and redeemed his people.
513
00:26:21,663 --> 00:26:25,709
He has raised up a horn of salvation
for us in the house of his servant, David,
514
00:26:26,543 --> 00:26:29,838
as he spoke by the mouth of his holy
prophets of old that we should be saved
515
00:26:29,838 --> 00:26:33,425
from our enemies and from the hand of all
who hate us, to show us the steadfast
516
00:26:33,425 --> 00:26:38,638
love promised to our fathers, etc.,
so that front loads.
517
00:26:38,638 --> 00:26:42,809
The whole, whole expectation is the King
has the Davidic Messiah, the true
518
00:26:43,226 --> 00:26:46,563
king of Israel has arrived.
519
00:26:47,522 --> 00:26:50,483
And from then on, what it means to be
520
00:26:50,775 --> 00:26:55,363
part of Israel
has to politically, I mean, like
521
00:26:56,323 --> 00:26:59,326
the nation of Israel, in a sense,
522
00:26:59,492 --> 00:27:00,744
means
523
00:27:00,744 --> 00:27:04,623
understands that these aren't metaphors,
that it's not like the New Testament
524
00:27:04,623 --> 00:27:09,628
authors are saying nice, cute,
you know, theological things about Jesus,
525
00:27:09,628 --> 00:27:13,673
but that they genuinely believe that
this is the rightful descendant of David,
526
00:27:13,673 --> 00:27:17,761
who is the rightful heir
to the throne of Israel.
527
00:27:19,095 --> 00:27:22,557
So would people that,
that have this other interpretation
528
00:27:22,557 --> 00:27:25,518
that we've been talking about, would they
look at that and just say, well,
529
00:27:26,269 --> 00:27:28,229
that's just figurative or that's
530
00:27:28,229 --> 00:27:31,399
going to be revealed at some point
in the future, but it hasn't happened yet.
531
00:27:31,399 --> 00:27:34,235
Like what's the response there
to this passage?
532
00:27:34,235 --> 00:27:36,279
possible that there would be this.
533
00:27:36,279 --> 00:27:36,488
I mean,
534
00:27:36,488 --> 00:27:40,116
because no one I mean, all Christians
recognize that this is true by definition.
535
00:27:40,450 --> 00:27:42,369
I think there I do
think there has been a tendency
536
00:27:42,369 --> 00:27:43,870
to spiritualized it a bit, though.
537
00:27:43,870 --> 00:27:46,122
Okay. Yeah.
538
00:27:46,122 --> 00:27:49,125
And then also maybe to say,
well, like you said,
539
00:27:49,125 --> 00:27:52,420
maybe when Jesus actually returns
or something like that.
540
00:27:52,712 --> 00:27:56,132
I think that's,
I think I've heard that one for sure
541
00:27:56,132 --> 00:27:58,176
where it's like,
well yes that will happen.
542
00:27:58,176 --> 00:28:00,261
Just hasn't happened yet,
543
00:28:00,261 --> 00:28:04,432
But again, you have Matthew 28
Jesus after his resurrection
544
00:28:04,432 --> 00:28:08,520
says all authority has been given to me
in heaven and on earth, or in, or what
545
00:28:10,063 --> 00:28:13,608
Peter says in the beginning of acts
where he
546
00:28:14,693 --> 00:28:17,070
he says, You guys rejected him.
547
00:28:17,070 --> 00:28:18,279
That wasn't good.
548
00:28:18,279 --> 00:28:21,658
So then he says,
549
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,204
Let all the House of Israel know
for certain that God has made him
550
00:28:26,204 --> 00:28:29,207
both Lord and Messiah,
this Jesus whom you crucified.
551
00:28:29,416 --> 00:28:30,667
He believes that.
552
00:28:30,667 --> 00:28:35,714
He believes that Jesus is, O,
and He says that
553
00:28:36,172 --> 00:28:39,467
that He ascended to heaven
554
00:28:40,093 --> 00:28:42,512
and having received the promise
555
00:28:42,512 --> 00:28:45,557
from the promise of the Spirit,
from the Father, he has poured this out.
556
00:28:46,015 --> 00:28:49,102
So this is one of, on the, on
his followers, right?
557
00:28:49,352 --> 00:28:51,730
This is one of his
Jesus kingly acts, right.
558
00:28:51,730 --> 00:28:54,149
As the exalted Messiah.
559
00:28:54,149 --> 00:28:57,152
He pours out the gift of the spirit,
560
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,029
Which is what the prophets
basically said would happen, right?
561
00:29:00,029 --> 00:29:00,405
Yeah.
562
00:29:00,405 --> 00:29:04,534
Or Paul speaks of God
having highly exalted him
563
00:29:04,534 --> 00:29:08,621
after his humiliation and given him a name
that is above every name,
564
00:29:09,205 --> 00:29:11,666
so that at the name of Jesus,
every knee will bow, the bowing
565
00:29:11,666 --> 00:29:14,836
maybe hasn't happened yet,
but the exaltation for Paul has, right?
566
00:29:15,044 --> 00:29:15,837
God has exalt.
567
00:29:15,837 --> 00:29:19,132
He is the exalted, the exalted Messiah.
568
00:29:20,049 --> 00:29:21,718
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
569
00:29:21,718 --> 00:29:24,345
So. for us today, how does that
570
00:29:24,345 --> 00:29:28,099
how does this affect our lives
and how we look at these things?
571
00:29:28,391 --> 00:29:29,309
And again, we're saying this
572
00:29:29,309 --> 00:29:32,896
in the context of the nation
state of Israel currently right now,
573
00:29:33,146 --> 00:29:38,443
but also for us as Christians, as here
we are, it's 2024.
574
00:29:38,568 --> 00:29:40,487
Okay. That was a long time ago.
575
00:29:40,487 --> 00:29:43,281
Like, what does that mean
if Jesus is king now what?
576
00:29:44,491 --> 00:29:45,992
So there's one interesting.
577
00:29:45,992 --> 00:29:47,494
There's multiple places like this.
578
00:29:47,494 --> 00:29:51,247
But before I talk to us about
a couple of passages in the New Testament
579
00:29:51,456 --> 00:29:54,459
and in the Epistles,
there's this one fascinating passage.
580
00:29:54,542 --> 00:29:59,214
One of my favorite passages in the in
Isaiah and
581
00:30:00,465 --> 00:30:01,800
my students are,
582
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,552
I think, tired of hearing me
say this is one of my favorite passages
583
00:30:04,552 --> 00:30:07,555
because I just keep pulling them out here
like, man,
584
00:30:07,722 --> 00:30:11,184
But Isaiah Chapter 19, because one of the
585
00:30:12,519 --> 00:30:15,522
one of the expectations of the
586
00:30:15,855 --> 00:30:19,567
the age to come, the Kingdom of God,
what Israel will mean
587
00:30:20,318 --> 00:30:23,279
as God restores
his people in the age of fulfillment
588
00:30:23,321 --> 00:30:27,283
is this understanding
that this is going to mean some changes
589
00:30:27,784 --> 00:30:30,787
to, of course,
what it means to be part of Israel?
590
00:30:31,079 --> 00:30:31,287
Right.
591
00:30:31,287 --> 00:30:34,833
It's going to be built around
more allegiance to to the true king.
592
00:30:35,458 --> 00:30:39,462
And also it's going to it's going to mean
more Gentiles are coming in
593
00:30:39,921 --> 00:30:42,090
and it's not immediate.
It's not always super
594
00:30:42,090 --> 00:30:44,425
clear in the prophets
exactly how that's going to work out.
595
00:30:44,425 --> 00:30:46,970
But that is definitely part
of the expectation that Gentiles will be,
596
00:30:46,970 --> 00:30:48,304
you know, streaming in
597
00:30:48,304 --> 00:30:51,474
and worshiping Israel's
God and submitting to the true king.
598
00:30:51,891 --> 00:30:54,894
And there's this one passage,
though, that's sort of a mind blower
599
00:30:55,270 --> 00:30:59,649
because it pictures
600
00:31:00,942 --> 00:31:03,903
Israel and Israel's worst enemies
601
00:31:03,903 --> 00:31:07,407
as together, all together
becoming the one people of God.
602
00:31:08,324 --> 00:31:11,536
So just really briefly,
because this is important
603
00:31:11,536 --> 00:31:14,747
for setting up the New Testament,
I think chapter 19,
604
00:31:15,123 --> 00:31:18,126
verse 19 in that day again
in that day, right.
605
00:31:18,334 --> 00:31:19,252
It's like this. Great.
606
00:31:19,252 --> 00:31:22,213
The prophets love this, this language
607
00:31:22,213 --> 00:31:25,425
of the future, of the what
we could call the last days.
608
00:31:25,508 --> 00:31:26,551
Right.
609
00:31:26,551 --> 00:31:29,262
There will be an altar to Yahweh
in the midst of the land of Egypt
610
00:31:29,262 --> 00:31:31,431
and a pillar to Yahweh at its border.
611
00:31:31,431 --> 00:31:32,098
Okay.
612
00:31:32,098 --> 00:31:34,726
It will be a sign and a witness
to Yahweh in the land of Egypt.
613
00:31:34,726 --> 00:31:39,105
And then it says, When they cry to Yahweh
because of oppressors, they being Egypt.
614
00:31:39,814 --> 00:31:42,817
When Egypt cries to Yahweh
because of oppressors,
615
00:31:43,067 --> 00:31:45,612
he will send them a savior and defender
and deliver them.
616
00:31:45,612 --> 00:31:47,947
You're like wait,
That sounds like the exodus story.
617
00:31:49,657 --> 00:31:52,327
Yeah, but
it's the plot twist because this time it's
618
00:31:52,327 --> 00:31:56,205
an Exodus story where instead of Egyptians
being the oppressors, it's
619
00:31:56,205 --> 00:32:00,877
God doing an exodus for Egypt, right?
620
00:32:02,337 --> 00:32:03,963
Yes. So it's taking, it's
621
00:32:03,963 --> 00:32:08,176
taking the Exodus story
and saying and inverting it.
622
00:32:08,176 --> 00:32:09,969
Right. It's saying.
623
00:32:09,969 --> 00:32:12,513
The people who were the worst enemies of
of Israel.
624
00:32:12,513 --> 00:32:15,600
The people that God exodus Israel from
625
00:32:16,601 --> 00:32:18,895
God could give them their own exodus.
626
00:32:18,895 --> 00:32:19,938
God could give that.
627
00:32:19,938 --> 00:32:23,316
God could give them the same story
He gave to God could give
628
00:32:23,316 --> 00:32:26,319
the oppressors of his, of his people,
the same story he gave to his people.
629
00:32:26,527 --> 00:32:27,362
Right.
630
00:32:27,487 --> 00:32:29,530
And then he goes down.
631
00:32:29,948 --> 00:32:30,865
There's more to this.
632
00:32:30,865 --> 00:32:32,867
But then he talks about this highway
633
00:32:32,867 --> 00:32:35,620
from Egypt to Assyria,
and Assyria will come into Egypt.
634
00:32:35,620 --> 00:32:38,331
If you're a Jewish person, this is not
the highway you want to go on, right?
635
00:32:38,331 --> 00:32:41,626
Because Assyria is the, if Egypt
636
00:32:41,626 --> 00:32:44,629
is the nation that God redeemed his people
from the exodus.
637
00:32:44,796 --> 00:32:47,674
Assyria is the nation that carted off
the northern tribes into exile.
638
00:32:47,674 --> 00:32:50,885
Right, Right. A very,
very horrible place.
639
00:32:51,010 --> 00:32:51,302
Yeah.
640
00:32:51,302 --> 00:32:54,305
I like to say to people,
you know, if you have a choice between
641
00:32:54,931 --> 00:32:58,601
getting captured by Assyria or ISIS,
you choose ISIS
642
00:32:58,601 --> 00:33:02,146
every day of the week because ISIS's
you know, ISIS's it sounds terrible,
643
00:33:02,730 --> 00:33:06,859
but Assyria is,
you know, unspeakably terrible.
644
00:33:07,443 --> 00:33:11,030
So so there's this highway
and it says the Egyptians will worship
645
00:33:11,030 --> 00:33:13,449
with the Assyrians. And you're like, whoa.
646
00:33:13,449 --> 00:33:17,286
And then this mind blowing passage,
if you're if you're reading this
647
00:33:17,286 --> 00:33:21,165
for the first time or hearing this
as someone, the first hearers of Isaiah.
648
00:33:21,666 --> 00:33:25,003
In that day, Israel will be the third
with Egypt and Assyria a
649
00:33:25,003 --> 00:33:26,421
blessing in the midst of the earth.
650
00:33:26,421 --> 00:33:28,423
This is the Abrahamic promise.
651
00:33:28,423 --> 00:33:32,510
Whom Yahweh of host has blessed, saying
Blessed be Egypt, my people.
652
00:33:32,510 --> 00:33:35,221
And the phrase
my people is Israel language only
653
00:33:36,597 --> 00:33:37,098
blessed be
654
00:33:37,098 --> 00:33:40,893
Egypt, my people and Assyria, the work
in my hands and Israel, my inheritance.
655
00:33:42,311 --> 00:33:44,564
And it's. It's. Crazy.
656
00:33:44,564 --> 00:33:47,066
And what you're not supposed to do is be
look and say,
657
00:33:47,066 --> 00:33:50,069
you know, when is there going to be
a super highway going from like,
658
00:33:50,069 --> 00:33:52,822
you know, Iran or something
to Egypt in the modern day.
659
00:33:52,822 --> 00:33:56,367
You know, what Isaiah is saying
is that in the days to come
660
00:33:57,326 --> 00:34:01,247
when, you know,
God comes to restore his people,
661
00:34:01,247 --> 00:34:04,792
this will also include taking
what were the worst of the worst,
662
00:34:04,792 --> 00:34:08,171
the worst enemies of God's people and
making them part of the one people of God.
663
00:34:08,755 --> 00:34:11,466
So that has to factor into what we
664
00:34:11,466 --> 00:34:15,595
see in the New Testament,
where the New Testament authors start
665
00:34:15,595 --> 00:34:18,848
saying God's bringing the Gentiles in
and he's not bringing them
666
00:34:18,848 --> 00:34:23,186
in as second class citizens
or as sort of their own thing,
667
00:34:23,770 --> 00:34:26,856
but bringing them into
what it means to be Israel.
668
00:34:27,899 --> 00:34:28,733
Yeah.
669
00:34:28,733 --> 00:34:32,278
So I think that
takes us to the most important passage
670
00:34:32,278 --> 00:34:33,196
in the New Testament
671
00:34:33,196 --> 00:34:36,657
for thinking about the relationship
between ethnic Israel and the
672
00:34:38,076 --> 00:34:40,745
and I won't say the church,
673
00:34:40,745 --> 00:34:43,748
but I'll say ethnic Israel and Gentiles.
674
00:34:44,457 --> 00:34:45,208
Yeah.
675
00:34:45,208 --> 00:34:47,043
Again, because I don't believe
in replacement theology.
676
00:34:47,043 --> 00:34:50,671
I don't think that it's
not that Israel's out
677
00:34:51,422 --> 00:34:54,634
and that now we have
this new entity called the church.
678
00:34:56,344 --> 00:34:58,554
And again this all centers around
679
00:34:58,554 --> 00:35:00,556
who do we think
the true king of Israel is?
680
00:35:00,556 --> 00:35:04,143
Because if Jesus genuinely is the true
king of Israel, then
681
00:35:05,186 --> 00:35:07,730
what it means to be Israel
682
00:35:07,730 --> 00:35:11,234
is, from Paul's perspective,
going to mean.
683
00:35:11,734 --> 00:35:14,487
So he sees, he talks about this olive tree.
684
00:35:14,487 --> 00:35:17,073
He uses this olive tree metaphor right.
685
00:35:17,073 --> 00:35:19,826
And the olive tree is Israel.
686
00:35:19,826 --> 00:35:21,994
That's the base of the tree. Right.
687
00:35:21,994 --> 00:35:23,329
It is Israel.
688
00:35:23,329 --> 00:35:27,291
So what it means to be God's people
is to be Israel, to be part of Israel.
689
00:35:27,542 --> 00:35:30,044
It's not to be part of the church
as some separate entity.
690
00:35:31,045 --> 00:35:33,005
It means to be
691
00:35:33,005 --> 00:35:35,716
part of Israel with Jesus as the king.
692
00:35:35,716 --> 00:35:36,634
Which passage is that?
693
00:35:36,634 --> 00:35:38,970
So this is Romans 11. Okay.
694
00:35:38,970 --> 00:35:41,514
So Paul says
695
00:35:41,514 --> 00:35:45,393
and in this passage, he's talking about
what do we, how do we think about the fact
696
00:35:45,393 --> 00:35:48,396
that so many Jewish people
aren't believing, and all this stuff?
697
00:35:48,604 --> 00:35:52,358
So he says he talks about this
this olive tree.
698
00:35:52,358 --> 00:35:55,361
He says if some of the branches
were broken off.
699
00:35:55,653 --> 00:35:57,196
So what does it mean to be broken off?
700
00:35:57,196 --> 00:36:02,535
Well, here what he means is, look,
there are there are Jewish people.
701
00:36:03,119 --> 00:36:06,122
Who. Have not
702
00:36:07,415 --> 00:36:10,376
Have not submitted to Jesus.
And therefore
703
00:36:10,376 --> 00:36:14,046
they're broken off of the olive tree,
which is the true Israel.
704
00:36:14,338 --> 00:36:16,591
What it means to
be true theological Israel.
705
00:36:18,634 --> 00:36:22,680
And then so, some of them are broken off.
706
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,726
And you guys, you Gentiles, some wild
olive shoots, so basically weeds.
707
00:36:26,726 --> 00:36:27,185
Right.
708
00:36:27,185 --> 00:36:31,314
You're just some lame weeds
that are useless, are grafted in.
709
00:36:31,355 --> 00:36:36,485
So we have no Gentiles have no stake
in God's promises like by ourselves.
710
00:36:36,903 --> 00:36:37,987
Paul will say that in Ephesians
711
00:36:37,987 --> 00:36:42,366
you guys used to be strangers
to the covenant of promise, far away from
712
00:36:42,366 --> 00:36:46,037
God's mercy, having no hope without God,
because you weren't part of Israel.
713
00:36:46,621 --> 00:36:46,954
Right.
714
00:36:46,954 --> 00:36:50,958
The promises were given to Israel,
but through Jesus,
715
00:36:51,500 --> 00:36:54,462
if you can be
716
00:36:54,462 --> 00:36:56,005
grafted in
717
00:36:56,005 --> 00:36:59,342
to the one tree, which is the Israel tree.
718
00:36:59,508 --> 00:37:01,344
Right. The tree.
719
00:37:01,344 --> 00:37:01,844
That's.
720
00:37:01,844 --> 00:37:04,305
It's the base is Israel. Right.
721
00:37:04,305 --> 00:37:05,932
What does it mean to be Israel?
722
00:37:05,932 --> 00:37:07,850
Well, ultimately, it means it.
723
00:37:07,850 --> 00:37:12,772
Israel is the people
that the son of David rules
724
00:37:13,022 --> 00:37:16,025
and that consists for Paul of ethnic Jews
725
00:37:16,734 --> 00:37:20,029
who submit to Jesus as the king
726
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,742
and not ethnic Jews who don't.
727
00:37:24,784 --> 00:37:27,787
They're broken off the tree,
728
00:37:28,371 --> 00:37:32,875
but also Gentiles who somehow they don't,
they shouldn't be part of the tree.
729
00:37:33,209 --> 00:37:33,584
Right.
730
00:37:33,584 --> 00:37:36,796
But they they submit to the king,
to the true king of Israel.
731
00:37:36,796 --> 00:37:41,425
And so they get, Sort of
grafted in to the one tree.
732
00:37:41,842 --> 00:37:44,887
And so they can rightly be called part of
733
00:37:46,013 --> 00:37:48,266
the one tree, the Israel tree.
734
00:37:48,266 --> 00:37:50,017
So it's not replacement.
735
00:37:50,017 --> 00:37:53,020
It's a grafting in of people
who shouldn't be in
736
00:37:53,771 --> 00:37:55,356
right to the one Israel tree.
737
00:37:55,356 --> 00:37:59,277
And it's a cutting off of those
who are
738
00:37:59,277 --> 00:38:02,280
in, are rebelling against the true king.
739
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:03,781
That makes so much sense.
740
00:38:03,781 --> 00:38:07,994
That's tying, It seems to tie so clearly
with what you were saying in Isaiah.
741
00:38:08,035 --> 00:38:09,620
Right.
That was 19, you know, talking about
742
00:38:10,579 --> 00:38:10,997
Egypt
743
00:38:10,997 --> 00:38:14,000
and Assyria,
both the enemies of God's people.
744
00:38:14,208 --> 00:38:15,835
But one day actually
745
00:38:15,835 --> 00:38:20,006
being able to be a part of this, which my,
that is kind of mind blowing actually.
746
00:38:20,006 --> 00:38:24,093
Like, yeah, yeah, I'm not actually
I don't remember that passage from Isaiah.
747
00:38:24,093 --> 00:38:24,510
Right.
748
00:38:24,510 --> 00:38:28,848
Like, like I think we kind of read that
in, in our modern ears and just kind of,
749
00:38:29,015 --> 00:38:31,976
just buzz right over that
And but when you start realizing
750
00:38:31,976 --> 00:38:35,479
like Egypt, Assyria,
like those are the arch enemies of
751
00:38:36,689 --> 00:38:38,524
I mean they are Yeah, exactly.
752
00:38:38,524 --> 00:38:42,278
Really in quote
unquote bad for Yeah, bad for Israel.
753
00:38:42,445 --> 00:38:45,406
I mean, they were just I mean, they were.
754
00:38:45,406 --> 00:38:45,823
Yeah.
755
00:38:45,823 --> 00:38:47,867
Yeah, absolutely.
756
00:38:47,867 --> 00:38:50,077
so this is,
this Paul says this in a different way
757
00:38:50,077 --> 00:38:54,457
when he speaks of, in Ephesians,
You guys at one time were called
758
00:38:54,874 --> 00:38:57,501
you were Gentiles
in the flesh called the uncircumcision.
759
00:38:57,501 --> 00:38:59,295
By what,
By what is called the circumcision.
760
00:38:59,295 --> 00:39:03,549
So ethnic Jews considered you outsiders,
and you guys were at
761
00:39:03,549 --> 00:39:07,636
that time separated from the Messiah,
alienated from the Commonwealth of Israel.
762
00:39:07,678 --> 00:39:10,097
You weren't part of the Kingdom of Israel,
763
00:39:10,097 --> 00:39:12,850
strangers to the covenants of promise,
having no hope without God in the world.
764
00:39:12,850 --> 00:39:13,809
So you weren't part of Israel
765
00:39:14,769 --> 00:39:16,729
and that
means you had no hope of salvation
766
00:39:16,729 --> 00:39:19,982
because salvation as Jesus said,
salvation is of the Jews, right?
767
00:39:20,024 --> 00:39:21,108
It comes through.
768
00:39:21,108 --> 00:39:24,195
It comes through
what God is doing with Israel, i.e.
769
00:39:24,195 --> 00:39:26,489
the Messiah. Yeah, And
this is Ephesians.
770
00:39:26,489 --> 00:39:27,239
Where is this again?
771
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:31,035
Ephesians 2 But now in Messiah Jesus,
you guys who used to be far off,
772
00:39:31,660 --> 00:39:34,497
in other words, Gentiles, he's
not talking about, you had a sinful life.
773
00:39:34,497 --> 00:39:35,581
No he was saying you Gentiles,
774
00:39:35,581 --> 00:39:38,417
you had nothing to do with the promises
that God's people
775
00:39:38,417 --> 00:39:40,669
had been brought near
by the blood of the Messiah
776
00:39:40,669 --> 00:39:43,881
because He is our peace,
who has made us both Jews and Gentiles
777
00:39:43,881 --> 00:39:47,510
into one and broken down
the dividing wall of hostility
778
00:39:48,010 --> 00:39:51,472
so that he might create in himself
one new humanity in place of the two.
779
00:39:52,014 --> 00:39:55,351
And he came and proclaimed
peace to you guys who are far off
780
00:39:55,726 --> 00:39:59,230
you Gentiles, and peace to those of us
who are near us ethnic Jews.
781
00:39:59,688 --> 00:40:04,068
For through him, we both Jews and Gentiles
have access in one spirit,
782
00:40:04,819 --> 00:40:07,947
because the spirit
is the one of the promises of the this,
783
00:40:08,197 --> 00:40:12,159
the prophets, the eschatological age
into to the father.
784
00:40:12,410 --> 00:40:15,371
And so he says,
You are no longer strangers and aliens.
785
00:40:15,955 --> 00:40:19,333
You're no longer sort of migrants
and you know, and stuff,
786
00:40:19,542 --> 00:40:22,378
but you are fellow citizens with God's
holy people.
787
00:40:22,378 --> 00:40:23,421
That's Exodus language, right?
788
00:40:23,421 --> 00:40:25,881
You belong to the kingdom of Priests.
789
00:40:25,881 --> 00:40:28,676
You're part of Israel
and members of the household of God
790
00:40:29,885 --> 00:40:30,970
and built together
791
00:40:30,970 --> 00:40:33,973
into this holy temple.
792
00:40:34,306 --> 00:40:36,892
So again,
Paul is thinking of what it means
793
00:40:36,892 --> 00:40:41,230
to be part of true Israel
as being part of the people that
794
00:40:42,523 --> 00:40:45,359
where God is at work in Jesus.
795
00:40:45,359 --> 00:40:48,362
But again, it's not
metaphor is not replacement theology.
796
00:40:48,404 --> 00:40:52,867
It's because he firmly believes
that the promises come to Israel
797
00:40:53,325 --> 00:40:55,953
through the true king of Israel
798
00:40:55,953 --> 00:40:59,165
and some, many have chosen not to,
799
00:40:59,206 --> 00:41:02,251
not to follow Jesus ethnic Jews,
and they're cut off
800
00:41:03,961 --> 00:41:04,879
from that.
801
00:41:04,879 --> 00:41:08,591
The true Israel trajectory
or tree and Gentiles have been brought in.
802
00:41:09,258 --> 00:41:09,800
Right.
803
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,929
But then Paul says, But remember,
you Gentiles don't get high and mighty
804
00:41:13,929 --> 00:41:17,975
because you guys kind of are in the tree,
but you probably naturally shouldn't be.
805
00:41:18,976 --> 00:41:21,979
And that means you could get lopped off
if you again, if you
806
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:23,564
yourselves reject Jesus.
807
00:41:23,564 --> 00:41:27,443
But also he says, doesn't that mean
that God would be more than happy
808
00:41:27,776 --> 00:41:30,905
to regraft in those branches
that he's lopped off?
809
00:41:30,905 --> 00:41:33,032
In other words, those ethnic Jews
that have rejected Jesus?
810
00:41:33,032 --> 00:41:35,534
And that's Paul's
big hope is that would happen.
811
00:41:35,534 --> 00:41:39,705
But again, what they're getting grafted
into is back into true Israel,
812
00:41:39,788 --> 00:41:43,334
which is that Jesus ruled Israel.
813
00:41:43,918 --> 00:41:46,921
For Paul that's the only Israel
814
00:41:47,087 --> 00:41:50,716
that is really the political sort
of Israel, if you want to say it that way.
815
00:41:50,716 --> 00:41:52,760
That's theologically
and prophetically significant.
816
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,720
That is what the prophets
are talking about for him.
817
00:41:56,096 --> 00:41:56,597
Okay.
818
00:41:56,597 --> 00:41:57,932
So we're taking kind of
819
00:41:57,932 --> 00:42:01,769
this whirlwind look through scripture,
and I'm sure there's a lot more here, but.
820
00:42:01,769 --> 00:42:04,522
but that kind of covers
a lot of the basics. I think of the.
821
00:42:04,522 --> 00:42:05,689
I think what the New Testament says.
822
00:42:05,689 --> 00:42:06,524
So I'm just thinking
823
00:42:06,524 --> 00:42:10,861
like if people want to be studying this
on their own afterwards, I would assume
824
00:42:10,861 --> 00:42:13,864
you'd say, Well, read Major Prophets
for starters, or read the Prophets.
825
00:42:13,948 --> 00:42:17,117
But you were also reading
specifically from Isaiah 19,
826
00:42:17,117 --> 00:42:21,038
then you were reading Romans
11 and Ephesians 2 which was what
827
00:42:21,038 --> 00:42:22,831
you're just looking at like, are there
certain things people should It's
828
00:42:22,831 --> 00:42:25,501
I think it's honestly the New Testament
Okay, just read the New Testament.
829
00:42:25,501 --> 00:42:27,127
Because.
830
00:42:27,127 --> 00:42:30,339
they are taking all this
and processing it in real time.
831
00:42:30,923 --> 00:42:33,926
And so you get things like Ephesians
where Paul is,
832
00:42:34,301 --> 00:42:37,304
is working this out
with Gentiles and saying, no, no,
833
00:42:37,388 --> 00:42:40,391
you're part of the one people of God,
which for him is Israel.
834
00:42:40,391 --> 00:42:43,143
Is true Israel Right, i.e.
835
00:42:43,143 --> 00:42:48,440
Israel ruled by the Messiah. Or Acts, or
836
00:42:49,775 --> 00:42:50,693
First Peter
837
00:42:50,693 --> 00:42:55,406
speaks to Gentiles and calls them
the kingdom of priests, the holy nation.
838
00:42:55,406 --> 00:42:58,409
This, you know,
this fellow citizens or whatever.
839
00:42:58,450 --> 00:42:59,368
That's a good point.
840
00:42:59,368 --> 00:43:00,828
Yeah. Yeah.
841
00:43:00,828 --> 00:43:04,206
And so, you know,
I think at the end of the day,
842
00:43:04,456 --> 00:43:09,128
we now some people are going
to still be tripped up and say, well,
843
00:43:09,128 --> 00:43:11,088
what about the specific promises
to Israel?
844
00:43:11,088 --> 00:43:12,381
Right.
845
00:43:12,381 --> 00:43:14,675
But again, what Paul,
846
00:43:14,675 --> 00:43:18,137
Jesus, Peter, And I think Isaiah himself
847
00:43:18,137 --> 00:43:21,140
and them would have said is
what do you mean?
848
00:43:21,348 --> 00:43:24,810
Like, don't you believe that
Jesus is the Messiah of Israel?
849
00:43:24,977 --> 00:43:29,773
Like, when I when we speak of prophesies
to Israel, we're speaking of prophecies
850
00:43:30,316 --> 00:43:35,029
to Israel, as you know, whether
851
00:43:35,654 --> 00:43:38,407
maybe there's, you know, before
Jesus, there's some
852
00:43:38,407 --> 00:43:41,410
this time, return from exile and stuff
that speaks of Israel.
853
00:43:41,452 --> 00:43:45,247
Israel before Jesus, Jesus showed up
on the on the scene at the beginning.
854
00:43:45,748 --> 00:43:50,502
But then they would be like, prophecies
to Israel are fulfilled in Israel
855
00:43:51,962 --> 00:43:53,756
with its Davidic king.
856
00:43:53,756 --> 00:43:54,757
Right. Yeah.
857
00:43:54,757 --> 00:43:57,051
And so we're not again,
we're not spiritualizing it.
858
00:43:57,051 --> 00:43:59,136
We're not pulling out
and saying they don't apply to Israel.
859
00:43:59,136 --> 00:44:02,806
We're saying what the prophets mean
and what the New Testament means
860
00:44:03,766 --> 00:44:08,854
theologically by Israel
as a nation is the nation
861
00:44:08,854 --> 00:44:11,982
that is not a democracy,
but a kingdom ruled
862
00:44:11,982 --> 00:44:14,985
by Jesus the Messiah.
863
00:44:14,985 --> 00:44:17,738
And so, I mean, if we want to speak of
864
00:44:17,738 --> 00:44:19,782
what does this have to do
with the current war, Right.
865
00:44:19,782 --> 00:44:22,451
Like, what do we, what can we say
about the current situation?
866
00:44:22,451 --> 00:44:26,288
I was going to say like, I'm sure people
are watching it or listening to it saying,
867
00:44:26,372 --> 00:44:29,375
okay, well, what does that mean
for the current, you know, situation
868
00:44:29,375 --> 00:44:32,795
or the current nation
that is called Israel now?
869
00:44:32,961 --> 00:44:36,298
So I think one of the things we can say
is that I do not think it will ever
870
00:44:36,298 --> 00:44:40,761
be possible for Hamas or anyone else
to ever fully eradicate the Jewish people.
871
00:44:41,679 --> 00:44:44,682
I think that God's,
I think that God's providence over them
872
00:44:44,890 --> 00:44:47,810
will not, I'm
not speaking of the nation state.
873
00:44:47,810 --> 00:44:49,728
I'm speaking of ethnic Jews.
874
00:44:49,728 --> 00:44:53,482
I think that will remain because, again,
I think Paul and and
875
00:44:53,982 --> 00:44:58,612
and others are longing for
waiting for a day when far more of them
876
00:44:59,071 --> 00:45:01,699
turn, return to their rightful,
877
00:45:01,699 --> 00:45:04,702
their rightful messiah,
and find salvation.
878
00:45:04,952 --> 00:45:09,623
And so I think when Jesus returns,
there will still be plenty
879
00:45:09,623 --> 00:45:12,960
of ethnic Jews, you know,
they won't have gone extinct as a people.
880
00:45:13,043 --> 00:45:16,880
So I think we can say that I don't think
Hamas will or the surrounding neighbors
881
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,092
will ever be able to completely wipe,
obliterate ethnic Jews from the earth.
882
00:45:20,092 --> 00:45:20,342
Right.
883
00:45:21,385 --> 00:45:22,010
But if we're
884
00:45:22,010 --> 00:45:27,683
saying, well, is this war or any of these
other wars or any kind of things related
885
00:45:27,683 --> 00:45:32,229
to this nation, political, modern nation
state of Israel, like the fulfillment
886
00:45:32,229 --> 00:45:36,442
of a point on a prophecy chart
beyond the Providence question?
887
00:45:36,483 --> 00:45:39,361
Right. I think the answer has to be no.
888
00:45:39,361 --> 00:45:41,655
And the reason, again, is simply that
889
00:45:41,655 --> 00:45:44,658
what the prophets mean by Israel
890
00:45:44,700 --> 00:45:49,246
is the people who are under the rule,
who are submitted to Israel's true king,
891
00:45:49,246 --> 00:45:52,249
not the people who are under the rule
of Bibi Netanyahu.
892
00:45:52,499 --> 00:45:52,833
Right.
893
00:45:52,833 --> 00:45:55,836
Bibi Netanyahu is not the prime
minister of Jesus.
894
00:45:55,836 --> 00:45:56,754
Right.
895
00:45:56,754 --> 00:46:00,466
And he would actually be really offended
if I were to suggest that,
896
00:46:00,966 --> 00:46:05,679
because he doesn't, he rejects Jesus
as the rightful king of Israel.
897
00:46:05,888 --> 00:46:08,891
He's a prime minister
of the current nation state.
898
00:46:09,183 --> 00:46:13,228
But it's not like that nation
state is is acknowledging Jesus as king.
899
00:46:13,687 --> 00:46:18,233
No, and therefore, in the biblical sense,
that is not, that's not what the prophets
900
00:46:18,233 --> 00:46:21,236
and that's not what the New testament
means by the nation of Israel.
901
00:46:21,278 --> 00:46:21,862
Okay.
902
00:46:21,862 --> 00:46:25,824
There's only one nation of Israel that
theologically, and that is the nation,
903
00:46:25,991 --> 00:46:29,953
the people that are under
the rule of Israel's true messiah.
904
00:46:30,662 --> 00:46:35,083
So would you say
then the current country on the map,
905
00:46:35,083 --> 00:46:38,295
that is Israel now,
which has many ethnic Jews
906
00:46:38,295 --> 00:46:42,508
living within it,
is just another political entity or.
907
00:46:42,758 --> 00:46:43,175
Yeah, how do you think about it?
908
00:46:43,175 --> 00:46:45,719
Yeah, I think so. And I think it's,
I think it has a right to exist.
909
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,223
I think I'm really glad it's there and
I think there's many good things about it.
910
00:46:49,223 --> 00:46:51,099
And, you know, we can be,
911
00:46:51,099 --> 00:46:55,437
we can we can be favorable toward it for
for a variety of reasons.
912
00:46:55,437 --> 00:46:58,440
The only thing we're not saying
is that
913
00:46:58,857 --> 00:47:02,569
that modern nation state of Israel is what
any of the prophets
914
00:47:02,569 --> 00:47:05,572
or the New Testament authors are speaking
of when they speak of Israel.
915
00:47:05,739 --> 00:47:08,742
Because what they speak of Israel,
they're speaking again of the nation
916
00:47:08,784 --> 00:47:11,787
that is ruled by the Davidic Messiah.
917
00:47:12,579 --> 00:47:15,582
Yeah,
I think that those are important,
918
00:47:15,958 --> 00:47:19,211
important distinctions
to make throughout this.
919
00:47:20,337 --> 00:47:21,839
I think that was when I was there.
920
00:47:21,839 --> 00:47:23,173
I was kind of surprised.
921
00:47:23,173 --> 00:47:27,302
It is a very secular
feel like it's a secular country,
922
00:47:27,302 --> 00:47:29,888
just like many other places.
I visited, whatever.
923
00:47:29,888 --> 00:47:33,058
And there are some other things about it
that are very special, very unique
924
00:47:33,392 --> 00:47:34,518
of course. Absolutely.
925
00:47:34,518 --> 00:47:36,937
And I loved my time
there, to be very clear.
926
00:47:36,937 --> 00:47:37,855
Yes, exactly.
927
00:47:37,855 --> 00:47:39,189
I absolutely loved it.
928
00:47:39,189 --> 00:47:40,148
Yeah, great place.
929
00:47:40,148 --> 00:47:43,026
But it did seem a little hard for me.
930
00:47:43,026 --> 00:47:45,988
When I’m coming out of that? I mean, like,
wow, is this it? Like, I don't know.
931
00:47:45,988 --> 00:47:48,490
I just felt kind of, like, really like it
felt.
932
00:47:48,490 --> 00:47:51,076
Like there should be more here.
I mean, what am I missing? You know?
933
00:47:51,076 --> 00:47:52,744
And I didn't really know
what to do with that.
934
00:47:52,744 --> 00:47:55,873
And it's not something
that I get into that much.
935
00:47:55,873 --> 00:47:57,916
But then when, you know,
we're both here at Faith Builders
936
00:47:57,916 --> 00:48:01,003
and we were having some discussions
about it and just hearing some of this
937
00:48:01,211 --> 00:48:03,755
this research and stuff
that you have compiled on it,
938
00:48:03,755 --> 00:48:05,465
it's like, okay, that does
939
00:48:05,465 --> 00:48:08,844
help me put the pieces together here
because it did feel a little,
940
00:48:09,428 --> 00:48:11,722
I don't know, lackluster,
not really, but was like,
941
00:48:11,722 --> 00:48:14,808
I'm not seen what I'm reading in the
in the Prophets in the New Testament.
942
00:48:14,808 --> 00:48:17,978
It's like this
this is this really it, You know. No.
943
00:48:17,978 --> 00:48:19,646
Because what you're reading
in the prophets,
944
00:48:19,646 --> 00:48:24,026
and the New Testament is again,
all surrounded, all wrapped up in
945
00:48:24,318 --> 00:48:27,779
what God is doing through the Messiah
Jesus.
946
00:48:27,863 --> 00:48:32,826
So I guess I'm just still kind
of confused then as to how
947
00:48:33,785 --> 00:48:35,704
dispensationalism, the whole Tim LaHaye
948
00:48:35,704 --> 00:48:38,874
interpretation of these things
has has gained so much popularity.
949
00:48:38,874 --> 00:48:42,628
It feels like that's more of an American
phenomenon, right? Yes.
950
00:48:43,003 --> 00:48:46,465
And some of it has to do with,
and we talked about some of this
951
00:48:46,465 --> 00:48:51,678
when we talked about
revelation, is a very inappropriate
952
00:48:51,678 --> 00:48:55,557
reading hermeneutic
for reading the prophets and this
953
00:48:55,599 --> 00:48:59,811
this like imposing what I, the way
I think the prophets should be read
954
00:49:01,021 --> 00:49:05,108
this like expectation that
everything needs things need to be literal
955
00:49:05,108 --> 00:49:09,863
the way I think literal, what I think
literal means and a failure to say,
956
00:49:09,905 --> 00:49:13,533
what was Isaiah thinking,
What did he think he meant?
957
00:49:13,659 --> 00:49:17,079
And then what do, how do the New Testament
authors pick up these prophecies?
958
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:20,374
Right? And and as a Christian,
959
00:49:21,667 --> 00:49:25,087
as someone who submits to Scripture,
I can't impose
960
00:49:25,128 --> 00:49:28,590
say like my top priority is make things
as literal as possible.
961
00:49:29,174 --> 00:49:33,178
And so I'm going to impose that onto
the text and you end up, you can't do it
962
00:49:33,178 --> 00:49:37,265
because you end up making so many things
figurative anyway, Symbolic, right?
963
00:49:37,391 --> 00:49:39,685
So you talk about Egypt and Assyria
and those end up being,
964
00:49:39,685 --> 00:49:42,688
you know, Iran and some other countries
that aren't Assyria.
965
00:49:42,980 --> 00:49:43,855
I see what you're saying.
966
00:49:43,855 --> 00:49:47,693
So no matter how you slice it,
everybody is still having to put symbolism
967
00:49:47,693 --> 00:49:48,568
into this.
968
00:49:48,568 --> 00:49:51,697
Of course,
because like the Tim Hayes of the world,
969
00:49:51,697 --> 00:49:53,490
maybe
they think they're reading literally.
970
00:49:53,490 --> 00:49:56,785
But again, they're imposing
modern tanks and trucks in Russia
971
00:49:56,785 --> 00:50:00,747
and all these modern technology and events
that are just not in the text,
972
00:50:00,747 --> 00:50:03,750
like they have to treat things
as symbolic anyway.
973
00:50:04,459 --> 00:50:07,129
But that's that's where I think
a lot of people think,
974
00:50:07,129 --> 00:50:09,506
I'm reading this literally
when I see Israel,
975
00:50:09,506 --> 00:50:11,717
I'm not meaning
some figurative entity called the church.
976
00:50:11,717 --> 00:50:13,969
I mean, Israel,
the one in the Middle East.
977
00:50:13,969 --> 00:50:16,722
But I say that's not what Isaiah meant
978
00:50:18,056 --> 00:50:18,807
when he was looking forward.
979
00:50:18,807 --> 00:50:19,891
He wasn't thinking of that.
980
00:50:19,891 --> 00:50:23,895
He was thinking of what God was doing
to restore his people through the Messiah.
981
00:50:24,146 --> 00:50:27,482
And when the New Testament
authors looked back at the prophets
982
00:50:27,482 --> 00:50:28,984
and they look forward, looked right
983
00:50:28,984 --> 00:50:32,279
to around them at what God was doing
in the world, then through Jesus
984
00:50:32,279 --> 00:50:35,782
and the outpouring of the Spirit,
they said, this is that right?
985
00:50:35,782 --> 00:50:38,702
What's happening now is what
the prophets said would happen.
986
00:50:38,702 --> 00:50:42,622
And so as a Christian, I want to see what
how did they read the prophets?
987
00:50:42,622 --> 00:50:45,625
And I'm going to try
try to follow their footsteps.
988
00:50:45,667 --> 00:50:50,213
And I think, yeah, but
I think the dispensational approach had
989
00:50:51,298 --> 00:50:55,635
originated or gained popularity
because it fed people,
990
00:50:55,635 --> 00:50:59,973
what seemed like, kind of falsely,
but seemed like a literal way of reading
991
00:51:01,224 --> 00:51:01,725
the Bible.
992
00:51:01,725 --> 00:51:05,937
But it's not, and it's not certainly
what the New Testament authors
993
00:51:05,937 --> 00:51:07,147
thought was going on,
994
00:51:07,147 --> 00:51:07,689
And it was
995
00:51:07,689 --> 00:51:11,276
probably getting a lot of popularity right
when Israel was becoming a nation.
996
00:51:11,651 --> 00:51:12,069
Right.
997
00:51:12,069 --> 00:51:14,529
And people like,
it's starting to happen. Right.
998
00:51:14,529 --> 00:51:17,532
And now that we're 80 years
removed from that,
999
00:51:17,574 --> 00:51:22,370
a little less than 80 years since,
you know, the nation of Israel started,
Speaker:
00:51:22,913 --> 00:51:25,665
perhaps we're starting to see, okay,
Speaker:
00:51:25,665 --> 00:51:27,918
I start to rethink this.
Speaker:
00:51:27,918 --> 00:51:28,335
I don't know.
Speaker:
00:51:28,335 --> 00:51:31,713
I just sense there's a lot of questioning
going on out there of like, wait,
Speaker:
00:51:31,755 --> 00:51:32,881
how do we read this?
Speaker:
00:51:32,881 --> 00:51:36,093
And again, Israel, the modern nation
state of Israel is under God's providence.
Speaker:
00:51:36,426 --> 00:51:39,471
And I you know, that's not the question.
Speaker:
00:51:39,471 --> 00:51:42,474
Like we can say,
I think it's providential that it exists.
Speaker:
00:51:43,308 --> 00:51:45,477
But that's a separate question
from saying that is the
Speaker:
00:51:45,477 --> 00:51:48,480
theological recipient of specific promises
in the Bible.
Speaker:
00:51:48,688 --> 00:51:49,272
Right?
Speaker:
00:51:49,272 --> 00:51:52,901
As Paul says, all of God's promises
by which he means these great promises
Speaker:
00:51:52,943 --> 00:51:53,610
in the prophets
Speaker:
00:51:54,653 --> 00:51:57,656
find their
Yes, their fulfillment in Jesus.
Speaker:
00:51:58,657 --> 00:52:02,786
so, As we have dove into some waters
Speaker:
00:52:02,786 --> 00:52:05,789
that are controversial and may have,
Speaker:
00:52:06,498 --> 00:52:06,998
ya again.
Speaker:
00:52:06,998 --> 00:52:08,750
The comments should be quite
interesting on this video
Speaker:
00:52:08,750 --> 00:52:10,919
because people have lots of opinions
about these things.
Speaker:
00:52:10,919 --> 00:52:14,339
What is the takeaway people can
have as they come away from this,
Speaker:
00:52:14,339 --> 00:52:17,717
whether they agree, disagree or like,
I don't know, it doesn't really matter.
Speaker:
00:52:17,717 --> 00:52:18,343
Like all of that.
Speaker:
00:52:18,343 --> 00:52:21,638
What is a piece
that anybody watching this or listening
Speaker:
00:52:22,556 --> 00:52:25,517
can take away from this,
for their own lives.
Speaker:
00:52:25,725 --> 00:52:30,021
I think for one thing, as gentile
believers ourselves,
Speaker:
00:52:30,522 --> 00:52:33,859
I think it's
so we've grown up in the church
Speaker:
00:52:33,859 --> 00:52:36,862
and so we think of ourselves as,
of course, we’re Christians.
Speaker:
00:52:37,362 --> 00:52:40,824
But I think we need to regain
a fresh sense of,
Speaker:
00:52:41,658 --> 00:52:46,663
of wonder or like strangeness
that God has,
Speaker:
00:52:46,830 --> 00:52:50,500
like we don't have any rightful claim
on being part of God's people.
Speaker:
00:52:51,251 --> 00:52:53,503
And so a sense of wonder and humility
Speaker:
00:52:53,503 --> 00:52:56,965
that God's brought us
into the true people of God,
Speaker:
00:52:58,675 --> 00:53:00,218
and that there is we are
Speaker:
00:53:00,218 --> 00:53:03,555
actually part of we've been grafted
into the story of Israel.
Speaker:
00:53:04,389 --> 00:53:08,018
And I think another takeaway
could be sharing with Paul
Speaker:
00:53:08,435 --> 00:53:12,147
the hope that Jesus cousins,
his ethnic cousins,
Speaker:
00:53:12,147 --> 00:53:16,234
would increasingly return
to their rightful king.
Speaker:
00:53:17,319 --> 00:53:20,947
That whatever happens in the Middle East
and the political side, the modern
Speaker:
00:53:20,947 --> 00:53:25,911
political side of things
that Jews all over the world
Speaker:
00:53:26,203 --> 00:53:29,164
would find
Speaker:
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:32,375
their
Speaker:
00:53:32,375 --> 00:53:33,668
true king.
Speaker:
00:53:33,668 --> 00:53:35,712
that's powerful.
Speaker:
00:53:35,712 --> 00:53:36,338
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:53:36,338 --> 00:53:39,216
I just thank you for coming on
and sharing this.
Speaker:
00:53:39,216 --> 00:53:43,803
And another piece to is hopefully
this is inspiring people to like
Speaker:
00:53:43,803 --> 00:53:44,137
you were saying,
Speaker:
00:53:44,137 --> 00:53:46,223
just start
reading the New Testament again, you know,
Speaker:
00:53:46,223 --> 00:53:49,267
and really studying this
and go back to scripture because that's
Speaker:
00:53:49,309 --> 00:53:52,062
what it's about,
you know, and Jesus as king.
Speaker:
00:53:52,062 --> 00:53:53,772
So, yeah, thanks for taking the time.
Speaker:
00:53:53,772 --> 00:53:55,482
Thanks for sharing today. Thanks.
Speaker:
00:53:56,191 --> 00:53:59,069
Thanks for listening to this episode
with Paul Lamicela.
Speaker:
00:53:59,069 --> 00:54:00,362
If you found this interesting,
Speaker:
00:54:00,362 --> 00:54:04,449
you should see the other one that we made
about how to read the Book of Revelation.
Speaker:
00:54:04,658 --> 00:54:06,493
Of course you can find all our content
Speaker:
00:54:06,493 --> 00:54:09,454
on our website
at anabaptistperspectives.org
Speaker:
00:54:09,579 --> 00:54:13,458
We also have a monthly email newsletter
that you can sign up on our website
Speaker:
00:54:13,583 --> 00:54:16,878
and an exclusive partners podcast
that's only available
Speaker:
00:54:16,878 --> 00:54:18,546
to those that support us monthly.
Speaker:
00:54:18,546 --> 00:54:20,507
All of that you can find on our website.
Speaker:
00:54:20,507 --> 00:54:23,468
Thanks again for listening
and we'll catch you in the next episode.