1 00:00:00,333 --> 00:00:01,543 Real change comes to 2 00:00:01,543 --> 00:00:05,922 the world through the Kingdom of God and through Christ, 3 00:00:05,922 --> 00:00:12,554 changing the hearts of, of people and that, you know, empires come and go. 4 00:00:12,554 --> 00:00:15,557 So you have the Greek Empire and the Roman Empire, and they all 5 00:00:15,890 --> 00:00:19,602 I mean, they they come and go, but the Kingdom of God is 6 00:00:20,353 --> 00:00:23,356 is an everlasting kingdom and it’s without end. 7 00:00:29,112 --> 00:00:31,072 Welcome back to Anabaptist Perspectives. 8 00:00:31,072 --> 00:00:34,659 we're joined by Merle Burkholder today. And. 9 00:00:34,784 --> 00:00:38,371 Merle, you've been involved in ministry for 45 years. 10 00:00:38,413 --> 00:00:41,875 You've been in, in church leadership for a good while now. 11 00:00:41,958 --> 00:00:44,711 you do a lot of teaching and so forth. 12 00:00:44,711 --> 00:00:49,340 And one of the core concepts within the Anabaptist worldview is, 13 00:00:49,424 --> 00:00:52,927 is how we relate to the nations that we live within. 14 00:00:53,470 --> 00:00:56,556 And you helped write a article on this. 15 00:00:56,765 --> 00:00:58,475 Yeah. Which we'll link down below. 16 00:00:58,475 --> 00:00:59,392 Dealing with some of this. 17 00:00:59,392 --> 00:01:03,980 And we're gonna dive into that because hardly needs to be said. 18 00:01:03,980 --> 00:01:07,067 But we're filming this in an election year here in America, and 19 00:01:07,650 --> 00:01:10,278 especially it feels like the last number of years, 20 00:01:10,278 --> 00:01:13,990 the political scene has gotten very aggressive 21 00:01:13,990 --> 00:01:17,827 and has seemed to dominate so many conversations in society, 22 00:01:17,827 --> 00:01:21,706 and that is bleeding over into our churches, which causes a lot of confusion. 23 00:01:21,706 --> 00:01:23,416 You know, what do we do with these questions? 24 00:01:23,416 --> 00:01:28,922 How how do we handle these things where there's so much, fear and rage 25 00:01:28,922 --> 00:01:33,176 and all these unknowns about our country and so forth? 26 00:01:33,176 --> 00:01:34,677 What's the proper response? 27 00:01:34,677 --> 00:01:39,224 So we want to get into that feels, again, particularly poignant and relevant right 28 00:01:39,224 --> 00:01:42,811 now, with the current election that's coming up here 29 00:01:42,811 --> 00:01:45,563 in a couple of months as of this recording. 30 00:01:45,563 --> 00:01:47,524 So let's jump into that. 31 00:01:48,733 --> 00:01:49,192 yeah. 32 00:01:49,192 --> 00:01:51,528 Do you have words to say as far as introduction at, 33 00:01:51,528 --> 00:01:52,904 you know, laying the context of 34 00:01:52,904 --> 00:01:55,907 for the conversation and then we'll just jump in from there? 35 00:01:56,116 --> 00:01:56,407 Yeah. 36 00:01:56,407 --> 00:01:59,410 Nationalism is, 37 00:01:59,452 --> 00:02:03,331 something that has a pull, it has an allure for our people. 38 00:02:04,207 --> 00:02:07,210 part of it is that, 39 00:02:07,418 --> 00:02:11,673 we've never lived anywhere this long without being persecuted. 40 00:02:11,673 --> 00:02:14,676 So, we're in new territory, 41 00:02:15,343 --> 00:02:21,266 and we've been frugal and have worked hard, so we've become prosperous. 42 00:02:21,474 --> 00:02:27,981 And so we have things, and we've lived here a long time in this country. 43 00:02:27,981 --> 00:02:32,861 And so we can begin to identify as Americans or Canadians 44 00:02:32,986 --> 00:02:37,407 and begin to see ourselves as citizens 45 00:02:37,407 --> 00:02:40,410 of this country, which we are. 46 00:02:40,785 --> 00:02:43,413 and there's a lot of things that are wrong in society. 47 00:02:43,413 --> 00:02:45,248 There's a lot of things that bother us 48 00:02:45,248 --> 00:02:47,500 that that are not the way they ought to be. 49 00:02:47,500 --> 00:02:52,505 And we see change that should happen in society and legitimately so. 50 00:02:52,630 --> 00:02:55,049 And so we say, well, how is that going to happen? 51 00:02:55,049 --> 00:02:58,052 How is how is change going to come? 52 00:02:58,303 --> 00:03:01,306 And politicians offer 53 00:03:01,514 --> 00:03:05,685 hope for change and that there's going to be they can make 54 00:03:05,685 --> 00:03:11,149 it happen and they're the one who can, you know, solve the problems. 55 00:03:11,149 --> 00:03:14,444 And, And then when politicians come, 56 00:03:15,528 --> 00:03:19,908 that may have, maybe a pro-business agenda 57 00:03:19,908 --> 00:03:24,746 or they, seem to agree with us on some social issues. 58 00:03:25,413 --> 00:03:28,875 then we can get drawn into. 59 00:03:28,875 --> 00:03:29,834 Well, they'll fix it. 60 00:03:29,834 --> 00:03:34,964 and that's the way to to bring change to the country and, and 61 00:03:35,506 --> 00:03:38,927 and we and we want our way of life to be preserved. 62 00:03:38,927 --> 00:03:41,137 And we want to be able to live the way we live. 63 00:03:41,137 --> 00:03:47,268 And and we lose that pilgrim and stranger concept 64 00:03:47,268 --> 00:03:51,064 that we'll live wherever we need to live, to practice our faith. 65 00:03:51,064 --> 00:03:55,985 And so if we can't do it here, maybe we'll move to Uganda and and. 66 00:03:56,444 --> 00:04:00,490 Do it there, but it's it's not site specific. 67 00:04:00,490 --> 00:04:02,033 We can practice our faith. 68 00:04:02,033 --> 00:04:04,869 We will live where we need to live, 69 00:04:04,869 --> 00:04:06,454 to practice our faith. And we become 70 00:04:07,956 --> 00:04:09,666 we want to defend 71 00:04:09,666 --> 00:04:12,335 our way of life in the country 72 00:04:12,335 --> 00:04:15,964 in which we're living, and feel like we have a right to live here 73 00:04:16,005 --> 00:04:21,636 and we need to be, able to live the way we live. 74 00:04:21,636 --> 00:04:24,597 And and another thing that's happened is that, 75 00:04:25,765 --> 00:04:27,392 Since World War two, 76 00:04:27,392 --> 00:04:31,896 we've become accustomed to the approval of society 77 00:04:31,896 --> 00:04:36,943 and that people say, oh, you Mennonites, you're good people. 78 00:04:36,943 --> 00:04:41,239 And and you're we really like you, and you just have a nice way of life and, 79 00:04:41,781 --> 00:04:43,408 and you're really good people. 80 00:04:43,408 --> 00:04:47,996 And we've forgotten that what it means to live 81 00:04:49,205 --> 00:04:52,458 in an atmosphere where society thinks we're wrong 82 00:04:53,042 --> 00:04:58,256 and that, we're not necessarily good people. 83 00:04:58,256 --> 00:05:01,676 And, and so and there's never been a good time to be a Christian. 84 00:05:01,843 --> 00:05:05,930 To be a committed Christian is is always counter culture. 85 00:05:06,639 --> 00:05:09,726 but there's a pressure to get drawn into the culture of our, 86 00:05:09,934 --> 00:05:13,521 of our, of the society around us and to feel like. 87 00:05:14,647 --> 00:05:15,648 government and 88 00:05:15,648 --> 00:05:19,068 politicians are the ones that can, can bring change. 89 00:05:19,068 --> 00:05:22,488 And then, politicians feed into that 90 00:05:23,239 --> 00:05:26,242 by using religion 91 00:05:26,451 --> 00:05:29,579 as, as a way to create support 92 00:05:29,829 --> 00:05:34,250 for their agenda and, and what they want. 93 00:05:34,250 --> 00:05:38,838 And politics is fueled by fear and rage. 94 00:05:38,963 --> 00:05:42,300 And so if you can, if people are either afraid or they're angry, 95 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:44,385 they'll turn out to vote. 96 00:05:44,385 --> 00:05:47,096 And so politicians 97 00:05:47,096 --> 00:05:50,016 fuel fear and rage in order 98 00:05:50,016 --> 00:05:53,061 to, to motivate people to go to the polls. 99 00:05:53,227 --> 00:05:56,439 and there are things that should make us angry. 100 00:05:56,439 --> 00:05:59,442 There are things that should make us concerned. 101 00:05:59,442 --> 00:06:01,611 But what we do about that 102 00:06:01,611 --> 00:06:06,949 is, is where the difference comes in for us as as followers of Christ. 103 00:06:06,949 --> 00:06:09,952 And so then politicians will use 104 00:06:10,495 --> 00:06:13,498 religious language to, 105 00:06:13,581 --> 00:06:18,169 well, it gets it gets it gets co-opted for political purposes. 106 00:06:18,169 --> 00:06:21,547 So a couple of years ago, President 107 00:06:21,547 --> 00:06:24,550 Biden, made a statement saying 108 00:06:24,967 --> 00:06:27,136 when the Lord asks whom shall I send the 109 00:06:27,136 --> 00:06:30,932 the American military has been answering that call for a long time. 110 00:06:30,932 --> 00:06:34,102 Here am I send me so... 111 00:06:35,478 --> 00:06:35,853 that's 112 00:06:35,853 --> 00:06:38,940 interesting biblical hermeneutics being applied there. 113 00:06:39,148 --> 00:06:41,401 wow. 114 00:06:41,401 --> 00:06:44,821 But when we begin to think that the American military 115 00:06:44,821 --> 00:06:47,824 is answering God's call, 116 00:06:47,865 --> 00:06:49,867 it just distorts 117 00:06:49,867 --> 00:06:53,079 the whole basis of, of Scripture. 118 00:06:53,079 --> 00:06:56,707 And and, you know, Isaiah's call wasn't a call to the military. 119 00:06:56,916 --> 00:06:59,919 that isn't what God asked him to do at all. 120 00:07:00,753 --> 00:07:04,132 and, in the 2020 121 00:07:05,258 --> 00:07:09,720 state of the Union address, President Trump had, the widow 122 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,808 of, of a, soldier that had been killed 123 00:07:14,142 --> 00:07:17,770 in, in battle or in service. 124 00:07:17,770 --> 00:07:21,315 And his widow was in the gallery at the state of the Union address 125 00:07:21,899 --> 00:07:25,403 and president Trump asked her to stand, recognized her, 126 00:07:25,403 --> 00:07:29,407 and then he, said, 127 00:07:29,824 --> 00:07:32,952 you know, right now your husband is looking down on us and 128 00:07:33,536 --> 00:07:38,416 and it's it's almost like if you lose your life in the military, 129 00:07:38,416 --> 00:07:41,419 like it's a ticket to heaven, like you're going to be. 130 00:07:41,794 --> 00:07:45,631 So it gets close to, some other religions, like Islam's 131 00:07:45,631 --> 00:07:49,135 concept of if you're a martyr, you're you're going to Paradise. 132 00:07:49,844 --> 00:07:54,432 And it's not like dying in military 133 00:07:54,432 --> 00:07:59,145 service is not a, an assurance of, of going to heaven. 134 00:07:59,145 --> 00:08:03,566 And but those, those things can get into our thinking 135 00:08:03,691 --> 00:08:07,236 and we can feel like, like that's the answer. 136 00:08:07,612 --> 00:08:12,200 And, and then we see politicians that they may do things 137 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,953 that we like and things that we support and things that we agree with. 138 00:08:15,953 --> 00:08:19,081 And we're like, see, it works like they they got it done. 139 00:08:20,041 --> 00:08:24,045 but the problem is that political solutions 140 00:08:24,045 --> 00:08:27,298 are temporary solutions, like you win and you lose 141 00:08:27,673 --> 00:08:30,384 political battles. 142 00:08:30,384 --> 00:08:33,012 And so while there may be short term 143 00:08:34,764 --> 00:08:38,017 results, they're not enduring, they're not lasting. 144 00:08:38,434 --> 00:08:41,437 And so just thinking about, 145 00:08:41,437 --> 00:08:44,106 just thinking about the abortion 146 00:08:44,106 --> 00:08:46,901 question, for decades, 147 00:08:46,901 --> 00:08:49,445 the Republican Party used abortion 148 00:08:49,445 --> 00:08:53,407 as a way of motivating their base, like, we have to overturn Roe v Wade. 149 00:08:54,075 --> 00:08:55,368 And so you come out, you vote. 150 00:08:55,368 --> 00:08:56,118 We'll get that done. 151 00:08:56,118 --> 00:08:59,121 And for decades, they motivated people 152 00:08:59,247 --> 00:09:00,039 To vote. 153 00:09:00,039 --> 00:09:03,376 And there were people who said, I don't care about anything else. 154 00:09:03,376 --> 00:09:04,877 I'm a one issue voter. 155 00:09:04,877 --> 00:09:06,254 I'm just voting on abortion. 156 00:09:06,254 --> 00:09:09,048 That's the only issue that matters to me. The rest is all. 157 00:09:09,048 --> 00:09:13,052 Whether they're militaristic or whatever is is a side issue. 158 00:09:13,052 --> 00:09:16,055 I'm voting on the issue of abortion. 159 00:09:16,764 --> 00:09:20,101 So then President Trump did what he said he would. 160 00:09:20,101 --> 00:09:22,436 He appointed three conservative justices. 161 00:09:22,436 --> 00:09:24,522 They overturn Roe v Wade. 162 00:09:24,522 --> 00:09:27,108 Now, the anger 163 00:09:27,108 --> 00:09:30,111 and the fear on the abortion issue has shifted 164 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,239 to the other side. 165 00:09:33,239 --> 00:09:35,366 And so now the Democratic Party will use it 166 00:09:35,366 --> 00:09:38,578 as a way of bringing their people to the polls. 167 00:09:38,578 --> 00:09:42,415 And and we have to overturn we have to restore these things. And. 168 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,043 and so someday it may go the other way. 169 00:09:46,168 --> 00:09:51,757 And, and so it's just it's a short term it's a short term solution. 170 00:09:51,757 --> 00:09:54,885 And, and it's, politics isn't 171 00:09:55,428 --> 00:09:58,389 doesn't make long term grassroots change. 172 00:09:58,598 --> 00:10:00,349 So it hasn't changed. 173 00:10:00,349 --> 00:10:04,186 You can overturn Roe v Wade but it doesn't change the demand for abortion. 174 00:10:04,186 --> 00:10:04,937 It doesn't. 175 00:10:04,937 --> 00:10:07,273 There's still people who want abortions. 176 00:10:07,273 --> 00:10:10,359 And so it it 177 00:10:11,068 --> 00:10:14,071 it doesn't bring change at the grassroots level. 178 00:10:14,822 --> 00:10:17,825 So is this a challenge of 179 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,203 methods as in what's 180 00:10:21,203 --> 00:10:24,206 going to actually work or is it more than that. 181 00:10:24,373 --> 00:10:25,708 or maybe a little bit of both. 182 00:10:26,792 --> 00:10:28,711 well, it's a little bit of both. 183 00:10:28,711 --> 00:10:31,922 it's it's, how does change happen? 184 00:10:32,173 --> 00:10:35,301 And, but it's some, 185 00:10:36,385 --> 00:10:42,058 a recognition that real change comes to the world through the kingdom of God 186 00:10:42,391 --> 00:10:47,521 and through Christ changing the hearts of, of people. 187 00:10:47,521 --> 00:10:51,359 And that, you know, empires come and go. 188 00:10:51,359 --> 00:10:54,362 So you have the Greek Empire and the Roman Empire, and they all 189 00:10:54,654 --> 00:10:58,324 I mean, they they come and go, but the kingdom of God is 190 00:10:59,075 --> 00:11:02,620 is an everlasting kingdom and is without end. And, 191 00:11:03,621 --> 00:11:05,956 when you think about when, 192 00:11:05,956 --> 00:11:08,959 like Jesus lived in a time of, 193 00:11:09,460 --> 00:11:14,298 political oppression for Israel and, and people wanted to make him a king 194 00:11:14,298 --> 00:11:19,470 and wanted him to be a revolutionary and get rid of the Romans and establish, 195 00:11:19,804 --> 00:11:23,224 a godly kingdom in 196 00:11:23,224 --> 00:11:27,103 Israel and, and and, and he didn't do that. 197 00:11:27,103 --> 00:11:28,896 He, he didn't have any interest in that. 198 00:11:28,896 --> 00:11:31,899 A matter of fact, when they were going to take him to be king, he would 199 00:11:31,941 --> 00:11:32,775 he would disappear. 200 00:11:32,775 --> 00:11:38,072 And and he he he didn't he didn't allow them to 201 00:11:38,072 --> 00:11:41,325 to put him into that position or into that slot. 202 00:11:42,743 --> 00:11:43,285 And he could 203 00:11:43,285 --> 00:11:46,288 have he probably I mean, he, he, he could have 204 00:11:46,664 --> 00:11:49,500 taken that position and but let's think about even 205 00:11:49,500 --> 00:11:52,503 if he would have been successful, like, what if he would have become 206 00:11:52,795 --> 00:11:53,963 the king of Israel 207 00:11:53,963 --> 00:11:57,174 and he would have been able to somehow defeat the Romans and establish 208 00:11:57,216 --> 00:12:01,345 a nation of Israel and restore the worship of God in Israel. 209 00:12:01,345 --> 00:12:03,514 And it would have been 210 00:12:03,514 --> 00:12:05,975 like today, 2000 years later, 211 00:12:05,975 --> 00:12:09,019 what would be the the result of that? 212 00:12:09,019 --> 00:12:12,022 It would be rather minimal compared to what he actually did 213 00:12:12,690 --> 00:12:18,446 when he brought in the kingdom of God and and how that's changed 214 00:12:18,446 --> 00:12:22,491 lives way beyond the boundaries of Israel and all around the world. 215 00:12:22,491 --> 00:12:24,201 You have people who are followers of Christ, 216 00:12:24,201 --> 00:12:27,705 and it has it's permeated societies all around the world. 217 00:12:27,705 --> 00:12:31,917 And the problem with nationalism is it's such a small idea. 218 00:12:31,917 --> 00:12:35,004 It's just one, one little geographical region, 219 00:12:35,671 --> 00:12:39,633 and the rest of the world is kind of well, it's it's it's not even thought about. 220 00:12:39,633 --> 00:12:42,636 And it's just like, well, we're really going to do something 221 00:12:42,636 --> 00:12:43,804 right here in this country. 222 00:12:43,804 --> 00:12:46,182 But but what about the rest of the world? 223 00:12:46,182 --> 00:12:50,352 And the kingdom of God is just this global thing that removes 224 00:12:50,895 --> 00:12:54,690 all the barriers and all of the distinctions that 225 00:12:55,816 --> 00:12:57,401 people make. 226 00:12:57,401 --> 00:13:00,404 And, and so it's it's a much bigger, grander 227 00:13:00,529 --> 00:13:04,241 idea and concept than, than nationalism. 228 00:13:04,992 --> 00:13:07,995 I think that was an important concept for myself 229 00:13:08,329 --> 00:13:12,124 when thinking through the these challenges with, with nationalism. 230 00:13:13,083 --> 00:13:14,752 And that is 231 00:13:14,752 --> 00:13:16,670 America, population wise, is 232 00:13:16,670 --> 00:13:20,508 only 4% of, of the world, 4%, 233 00:13:20,508 --> 00:13:24,220 which is very little in the grand scheme of things. 234 00:13:24,929 --> 00:13:27,097 And, and that made me kind of stop and be like, oh, 235 00:13:27,097 --> 00:13:30,559 maybe we're not quite as significant as we like to think we are, which you have 236 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,687 the American complex of thinking we're we're the best thing ever. 237 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,234 but then you have the other side, too, where you scale it back 238 00:13:38,234 --> 00:13:45,199 and say that the global church is this massive entity that covers every basically 239 00:13:45,199 --> 00:13:48,577 every nation, not every people group, but but basically every country. 240 00:13:48,786 --> 00:13:53,624 And, is way bigger, way, way, way bigger and more enduring than America 241 00:13:53,624 --> 00:13:54,250 will ever be. 242 00:13:54,250 --> 00:13:58,003 And also this thought that, you know, one day, every country that 243 00:13:58,003 --> 00:14:01,090 that now exists will probably not exist because things change. 244 00:14:01,090 --> 00:14:04,677 I mean, if you read through history, you take any of the countries 245 00:14:04,677 --> 00:14:07,930 that existed then and things change, borders, move, etc. 246 00:14:08,639 --> 00:14:13,769 maybe we're dealing on a timescale that's too, too small or too, short. 247 00:14:14,019 --> 00:14:16,856 Is that like if we're getting wrapped up into nationalism, I should say, 248 00:14:18,274 --> 00:14:19,650 how does that resonate? 249 00:14:19,650 --> 00:14:20,943 What would you say to that? 250 00:14:20,943 --> 00:14:22,444 Yeah, I think that's exactly right. 251 00:14:22,444 --> 00:14:25,447 We focus on the short term rather than the long term. 252 00:14:26,282 --> 00:14:28,868 And when we focus on the long term, 253 00:14:28,868 --> 00:14:33,163 then we're thinking about the kingdom of God and and that 254 00:14:33,163 --> 00:14:37,710 eternal kingdom, that everlasting kingdom that is without end. 255 00:14:37,710 --> 00:14:41,338 And and we invest in something that really is enduring 256 00:14:42,214 --> 00:14:46,010 and something that really has potential for the for the long term. 257 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,763 So maybe a, possible way of, 258 00:14:50,055 --> 00:14:52,349 of thinking about this and dealing 259 00:14:52,349 --> 00:14:55,352 with, with nationalism is simply 260 00:14:55,728 --> 00:14:58,731 to encourage people to think on bigger timescales. 261 00:14:59,607 --> 00:15:02,276 you know, that seems a bit simplistic, but I actually wonder if 262 00:15:02,276 --> 00:15:06,655 what if we were thinking in timescales of 500 years or a thousand years from now, 263 00:15:06,947 --> 00:15:07,907 what's going to be here 264 00:15:09,033 --> 00:15:10,367 exactly Yeah. 265 00:15:10,367 --> 00:15:15,539 and also to think beyond our own ethnicity, 266 00:15:15,539 --> 00:15:23,130 our own, our own nationality and that it's so much bigger than all that. 267 00:15:23,464 --> 00:15:27,635 And, it's something that that is, is 268 00:15:27,635 --> 00:15:30,638 way broader than one, one country. 269 00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:33,349 So that's interesting about, you know, 270 00:15:33,349 --> 00:15:36,644 we identify as citizens of the countries we live in. 271 00:15:36,644 --> 00:15:40,105 I mean, in the sense that I have an American passport or so forth. 272 00:15:40,397 --> 00:15:41,941 You're a dual citizen. 273 00:15:41,941 --> 00:15:42,983 So how does that work? 274 00:15:42,983 --> 00:15:46,779 You're both Canadian and an American citizen, I wonder, does that give you any 275 00:15:47,905 --> 00:15:53,911 extra insight if you have multiple countries now that you can identify with? 276 00:15:54,203 --> 00:15:56,246 Does that change the narrative for you at all? 277 00:15:56,246 --> 00:15:59,166 Is that a helpful piece of context for us here? 278 00:15:59,166 --> 00:16:00,918 Well, one of the things that was interesting was 279 00:16:00,918 --> 00:16:05,673 I was born in the United States, so I was an American citizen, at birth. 280 00:16:05,839 --> 00:16:10,719 And then we moved to Canada and I became naturalized as a Canadian citizen. 281 00:16:10,886 --> 00:16:12,554 But before I did that, 282 00:16:13,722 --> 00:16:15,057 took that step. 283 00:16:15,057 --> 00:16:18,018 I didn't want to lose my United States citizenship. 284 00:16:18,018 --> 00:16:22,773 So I wrote a letter to the State Department saying, can I retain my U.S. 285 00:16:22,773 --> 00:16:26,026 citizenship if I'm naturalized as a Canadian citizen? 286 00:16:26,777 --> 00:16:30,197 So they sent me a 20 page document with all the reasons 287 00:16:30,197 --> 00:16:31,323 why it's not a good idea. 288 00:16:31,323 --> 00:16:35,869 And and then the last 2 or 3 pages were, however, it is possible. 289 00:16:35,869 --> 00:16:39,665 And here's some things that if you decide to do it, these will help you. 290 00:16:39,707 --> 00:16:43,711 One of the things was that I could make, 291 00:16:43,961 --> 00:16:46,714 a notarized statement 292 00:16:46,714 --> 00:16:50,718 that I don't intend to, forfeit my U.S. 293 00:16:50,718 --> 00:16:51,677 citizenship. 294 00:16:51,677 --> 00:16:55,264 And I intend to fulfill the responsibilities 295 00:16:56,015 --> 00:16:59,018 of a citizen of the United States. 296 00:16:59,018 --> 00:17:00,519 by doing the following things. 297 00:17:00,519 --> 00:17:03,397 And so I went to a lawyer, and I. 298 00:17:03,397 --> 00:17:07,359 I drew up this this paper, and I made a list of things that, 299 00:17:07,568 --> 00:17:09,278 these are things that I will do 300 00:17:09,278 --> 00:17:12,322 as a faithful citizen of the United States of America. 301 00:17:12,322 --> 00:17:15,117 I will pay my taxes. I will obey the laws. 302 00:17:15,117 --> 00:17:16,535 And I forgot what all was on the list. 303 00:17:16,535 --> 00:17:18,829 But obviously military service wasn't one of them. 304 00:17:18,829 --> 00:17:22,916 But, here are the things that I will do as a faithful citizen 305 00:17:22,916 --> 00:17:23,667 of the United States. 306 00:17:23,667 --> 00:17:26,879 So I have also have a citizenship 307 00:17:26,879 --> 00:17:29,882 in the kingdom of of heaven, the kingdom of God. 308 00:17:30,007 --> 00:17:31,508 That's my primary allegiance. 309 00:17:31,508 --> 00:17:33,552 That's my primary identity. 310 00:17:33,552 --> 00:17:38,640 I am a citizen of of the kingdom of God. 311 00:17:38,891 --> 00:17:40,267 And so that's my primary identity. 312 00:17:40,267 --> 00:17:43,520 However, I live in Canada and I will. 313 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,439 And when I took the, 314 00:17:45,439 --> 00:17:49,234 when I went to the citizenship ceremony to become a citizen of Canada, 315 00:17:49,234 --> 00:17:54,531 I had to affirm that I will be a loyal subject of Queen Elizabeth the Second. 316 00:17:54,531 --> 00:18:00,245 And so I said that I will be a loyal subject of Queen Elizabeth the Second. 317 00:18:00,245 --> 00:18:03,207 And so there are things that I do 318 00:18:03,749 --> 00:18:06,543 as a loyal citizen 319 00:18:06,543 --> 00:18:10,172 of the British Empire, I guess, and or the Dominion of Canada. 320 00:18:11,757 --> 00:18:13,300 But I still recognize that 321 00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:17,346 my primary allegiance is to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. 322 00:18:17,346 --> 00:18:20,933 And so I I'll be a I'll be a I'll be a loyal subject of well, 323 00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:26,772 King Charles, but my primary loyalty is to the King of kings and Lord of lords. 324 00:18:26,772 --> 00:18:31,401 And so I'm I'll do these things as a citizen of the United States. 325 00:18:31,902 --> 00:18:33,153 file a tax return. 326 00:18:33,153 --> 00:18:34,613 I'll do the things that they require. 327 00:18:34,613 --> 00:18:37,574 I'll be a loyal subject of King Charles. 328 00:18:37,616 --> 00:18:40,619 But I am, primarily 329 00:18:40,911 --> 00:18:45,457 a child of the King and and, a servant of the King of kings and Lord of lords. 330 00:18:45,457 --> 00:18:48,710 And so, you know, we do have responsibilities 331 00:18:49,461 --> 00:18:50,629 to the nations we live in. 332 00:18:50,629 --> 00:18:54,466 And there are rights and and responsibilities of being, 333 00:18:54,716 --> 00:18:59,513 a resident and a citizen of, an earthly kingdom. 334 00:19:00,430 --> 00:19:01,181 But we 335 00:19:01,181 --> 00:19:04,184 always remember that we do have another citizenship. 336 00:19:04,309 --> 00:19:08,480 And that's where our primary, that's where our primary loyalty is. 337 00:19:08,856 --> 00:19:13,902 And one of the things that, the United States government said was, 338 00:19:13,902 --> 00:19:14,862 you have to think about 339 00:19:14,862 --> 00:19:18,198 if you become citizen of another country, what if those two countries go to war? 340 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,201 Who are you going to, 341 00:19:21,201 --> 00:19:22,035 what are you going to do? 342 00:19:22,035 --> 00:19:25,038 You could really you could be drafted by both countries 343 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:29,334 And, and we have to recognize there are times when the kingdom of God 344 00:19:29,334 --> 00:19:31,837 and the kingdoms of this earth are in conflict. 345 00:19:31,837 --> 00:19:35,424 And and in those moments, our primary loyalty is to the 346 00:19:35,424 --> 00:19:37,593 is to the kingdom of God. 347 00:19:37,593 --> 00:19:40,596 And that's where that's where we default to. 348 00:19:41,138 --> 00:19:45,475 So you're saying primary allegiance to Jesus and his kingdom? 349 00:19:46,393 --> 00:19:49,938 What would you say to someone who says, well, absolutely, I believe that. 350 00:19:49,938 --> 00:19:53,317 And because that's my primary goal, 351 00:19:54,234 --> 00:19:58,864 I believe I should become involved in, voting nationalism, 352 00:19:59,156 --> 00:20:02,242 the political system here in America or wherever their country is. 353 00:20:02,659 --> 00:20:04,161 And they believe that that's the best, 354 00:20:04,161 --> 00:20:08,373 that that is a great way they can serve Jesus and his kingdom. 355 00:20:08,373 --> 00:20:10,918 What would you say to that again? Does this come back to you? 356 00:20:10,918 --> 00:20:14,379 Well, you have the methods wrong or is there more to it? 357 00:20:14,463 --> 00:20:15,923 Yeah. What do you say to someone like that? 358 00:20:17,090 --> 00:20:19,009 Well, I feel like, 359 00:20:19,009 --> 00:20:20,719 if I'm going to get engaged 360 00:20:20,719 --> 00:20:22,554 if I'm going to get engaged 361 00:20:22,804 --> 00:20:26,225 in the politics of a nation, 362 00:20:26,225 --> 00:20:30,229 whether it's the United States or Canada, 363 00:20:30,646 --> 00:20:35,776 I can begin to see that involvement as politics, 364 00:20:35,776 --> 00:20:40,197 as the solution to the problems of the country. 365 00:20:40,822 --> 00:20:43,700 And it's it's and it's 366 00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:46,078 very limited in what it actually 367 00:20:46,078 --> 00:20:48,664 can do compared to 368 00:20:48,664 --> 00:20:51,458 what the kingdom of God can do. 369 00:20:51,458 --> 00:20:54,670 And so I want to be so busy 370 00:20:55,587 --> 00:20:58,590 in the kingdom of God that I don't have time 371 00:20:58,966 --> 00:21:01,969 to really figure out who 372 00:21:02,052 --> 00:21:05,597 who is the best politician to be, to be in power 373 00:21:06,348 --> 00:21:09,351 And I think it's also a conflict of interest. 374 00:21:09,893 --> 00:21:13,563 If the president of the United States 375 00:21:13,689 --> 00:21:17,109 states is the commander in chief of the military. 376 00:21:17,192 --> 00:21:19,611 How can I 377 00:21:19,611 --> 00:21:22,614 be part of appointing somebody to be 378 00:21:22,698 --> 00:21:25,367 the commander in chief of the military? 379 00:21:25,367 --> 00:21:28,787 When I just think, I mean, I can't participate, 380 00:21:28,787 --> 00:21:33,125 I am so then I think I'm in a conflict. 381 00:21:33,125 --> 00:21:35,877 I think I'm in a conflict of of interests. 382 00:21:35,877 --> 00:21:41,508 if I'm if I'm voting and if I'm getting involved in the political or 383 00:21:42,592 --> 00:21:45,595 in the political process. 384 00:21:46,054 --> 00:21:46,513 yeah. 385 00:21:46,513 --> 00:21:49,516 That's that is a really good point, because if 386 00:21:49,933 --> 00:21:53,812 you're involved in the process of appointing the commander in chief, but, 387 00:21:53,979 --> 00:21:58,734 but also holding to a stance of nonviolence or, radical enemy love 388 00:21:58,775 --> 00:22:01,820 or however you want to say it and then say there is a war and a draft, 389 00:22:01,820 --> 00:22:06,408 and that commander in chief now asks you to serve or requires you to serve. 390 00:22:06,408 --> 00:22:09,995 And you say, well, no, that does seem like that's not consistent. 391 00:22:10,370 --> 00:22:12,998 Really at all. 392 00:22:12,998 --> 00:22:13,290 Yeah. 393 00:22:13,290 --> 00:22:17,544 And I think that, you know, there are people then that say, 394 00:22:17,544 --> 00:22:22,841 well you're just you're just benefiting then from what 395 00:22:22,841 --> 00:22:27,721 the rest of us are doing and, you know, we're, we're getting involved politically. 396 00:22:27,721 --> 00:22:29,681 And so the whole thing of, 397 00:22:30,766 --> 00:22:34,311 of, well, if good people do nothing, then evil reigns. 398 00:22:34,561 --> 00:22:37,981 And so if you don't vote, if all the good people don't vote, 399 00:22:37,981 --> 00:22:40,984 then we're going to have bad politicians, right? 400 00:22:40,984 --> 00:22:43,612 And, but 401 00:22:43,612 --> 00:22:47,616 it's not, it's not an either or situation. 402 00:22:47,616 --> 00:22:49,785 It's not either. I vote 403 00:22:49,785 --> 00:22:51,828 Like I can do other things. 404 00:22:51,828 --> 00:22:55,040 so I can be active in my community. 405 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,877 I can be doing things that will bring change to my community. 406 00:22:59,086 --> 00:23:02,214 I'm not engaging in the political system 407 00:23:02,214 --> 00:23:05,175 to bring change, but I'm getting involved in. 408 00:23:05,217 --> 00:23:06,343 like a food bank. 409 00:23:06,343 --> 00:23:09,137 I'm getting involved in in a fire department. 410 00:23:09,137 --> 00:23:11,223 I'm getting involved in, 411 00:23:11,223 --> 00:23:15,018 in things in the community where I'm having an impact on the community, 412 00:23:15,018 --> 00:23:18,855 and I'm engaging with the homeless community or whatever it is. 413 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,234 so it's not like I'm. 414 00:23:22,234 --> 00:23:24,945 It's not like I'm a good person doing nothing. 415 00:23:24,945 --> 00:23:26,154 I'm a good person doing things. 416 00:23:26,154 --> 00:23:28,323 But it's not it's not the political things. 417 00:23:28,323 --> 00:23:31,326 And so it's not like, well, it's either politics or nothing. 418 00:23:31,743 --> 00:23:35,455 It's like, yeah, good people need to do something, 419 00:23:36,081 --> 00:23:38,625 but it doesn't have to be politics. 420 00:23:38,625 --> 00:23:42,504 There are other ways to bring change to the to the world. 421 00:23:42,504 --> 00:23:45,507 And I think that the other things 422 00:23:45,799 --> 00:23:48,635 are actually probably more 423 00:23:48,635 --> 00:23:51,680 lasting, have more long term lasting effects 424 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,683 than, than politics. 425 00:23:55,559 --> 00:23:58,979 but if if we're not doing anything, if we're not willing 426 00:23:58,979 --> 00:24:02,190 to expend our energies and 427 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,570 perhaps even put our lives at risk for the sake of the kingdom of God, then 428 00:24:06,570 --> 00:24:11,908 the accusation that we're just benefiting from what other people are, are doing is, 429 00:24:12,951 --> 00:24:14,995 is justified. 430 00:24:14,995 --> 00:24:16,496 that's that's interesting. 431 00:24:16,496 --> 00:24:18,915 because, yeah, I've definitely heard that too. 432 00:24:18,915 --> 00:24:21,376 I mean, different service members and things, you know, like, well, hey, 433 00:24:21,376 --> 00:24:25,505 you guys are getting a free pass from all our hard work of maintaining 434 00:24:25,505 --> 00:24:30,135 this, this system, of the, country of America, essentially. 435 00:24:30,719 --> 00:24:33,305 the other thing we have to recognize, though, 436 00:24:33,305 --> 00:24:36,308 is that, 437 00:24:37,058 --> 00:24:39,186 the practice of our faith 438 00:24:39,186 --> 00:24:42,606 and the wealth and the not the wealth, but the 439 00:24:42,814 --> 00:24:45,817 the well-being and the welfare of the church 440 00:24:46,067 --> 00:24:49,070 is not dependent on a particular political system. 441 00:24:49,696 --> 00:24:51,573 That's an excellent point. 442 00:24:51,573 --> 00:24:54,576 so people say, well, you know, the country is, you know, 443 00:24:55,202 --> 00:24:58,830 going, you know, into authoritarianism 444 00:24:58,830 --> 00:25:01,833 or into communism and, you know, it's going to be really bad. 445 00:25:02,042 --> 00:25:03,168 Not necessarily. 446 00:25:03,168 --> 00:25:07,130 The church has prospered under some pretty adverse political systems. 447 00:25:07,130 --> 00:25:12,552 And so we don't need to protect a certain. 448 00:25:12,552 --> 00:25:15,722 Form of government or a certain system of government 449 00:25:15,722 --> 00:25:20,268 in order for the church to be healthy and, and to to prosper. 450 00:25:20,268 --> 00:25:25,524 And so it's a bit of a fallacy to think that we really have to fight for our, 451 00:25:25,607 --> 00:25:27,817 our political system, and we really have to fight 452 00:25:27,817 --> 00:25:32,614 for our religious freedoms or the church is going to be, you know, extinguished. 453 00:25:32,614 --> 00:25:35,825 No, it's not, it might actually be really 454 00:25:35,825 --> 00:25:38,912 healthy under a, under an adverse political system. 455 00:25:40,205 --> 00:25:40,539 Yeah. 456 00:25:40,539 --> 00:25:41,206 That that's 457 00:25:41,206 --> 00:25:45,377 that is an excellent point that that could very easily be a fallacy of like, well, 458 00:25:45,377 --> 00:25:49,631 if it wasn't for the strong military of the United States today, 459 00:25:50,131 --> 00:25:53,134 the church here would not continue as it is. 460 00:25:54,344 --> 00:25:55,428 But yeah, you're totally right. 461 00:25:55,428 --> 00:25:56,429 I mean, if you study history, 462 00:25:56,429 --> 00:25:59,808 the church does not need a particular system to survive. 463 00:25:59,808 --> 00:26:03,937 I mean, the church thrived, you know, under Roman persecution, for example, 464 00:26:03,937 --> 00:26:04,646 like the early church. 465 00:26:04,646 --> 00:26:07,649 I mean, that was, basically unlike any, 466 00:26:08,984 --> 00:26:11,861 persecution levels that we've seen recently for the church. 467 00:26:11,861 --> 00:26:13,446 And, and it thrived, it grew. 468 00:26:13,446 --> 00:26:16,199 And I think that's pretty important. 469 00:26:16,199 --> 00:26:19,869 I think there's this fixation or obsession with power 470 00:26:19,911 --> 00:26:23,832 going on here of like, we have to do control of this. 471 00:26:24,666 --> 00:26:26,501 maybe it's the human desire of 472 00:26:27,586 --> 00:26:28,461 feeling in control of 473 00:26:28,461 --> 00:26:31,756 something and, being afraid of the unknown. 474 00:26:31,756 --> 00:26:33,341 And maybe we'll lose this, that we have. 475 00:26:33,341 --> 00:26:34,843 I think you made a really good point about. 476 00:26:34,843 --> 00:26:38,388 We've never lived in a place this long without getting persecuted, 477 00:26:38,638 --> 00:26:40,223 the Anabaptist people. 478 00:26:40,223 --> 00:26:43,226 And so that's maybe making some shifts in how we perceive 479 00:26:43,643 --> 00:26:46,730 what's important maintaining the status quo, maintaining the 480 00:26:46,730 --> 00:26:51,234 the right power structures to keep us from getting persecuted again, perhaps. 481 00:26:51,318 --> 00:26:52,944 I'm a bit rambling here. 482 00:26:52,944 --> 00:26:55,322 I'm not a historian, so, you know, I don't want to say things 483 00:26:55,322 --> 00:26:57,949 that are incorrect, but, it does feel like that. 484 00:26:57,949 --> 00:27:00,952 It's got to play into it. You know? 485 00:27:01,036 --> 00:27:04,164 so it's very easy in conversations like this 486 00:27:04,164 --> 00:27:07,167 to focus on all the things that we don't do. 487 00:27:07,167 --> 00:27:09,085 We don't vote, we don't go to the military. 488 00:27:09,085 --> 00:27:10,754 We don't this we don't that. 489 00:27:10,754 --> 00:27:13,131 and I guess that's all fine and good. 490 00:27:13,131 --> 00:27:16,217 but Those that criticize our position. 491 00:27:16,635 --> 00:27:18,386 What is a legitimate response? 492 00:27:18,386 --> 00:27:21,640 So we can say, that we are, 493 00:27:23,099 --> 00:27:26,102 functional members of society and contributing in other ways, 494 00:27:26,436 --> 00:27:30,357 just not in the ways of involvement in the political system or the military system. 495 00:27:30,649 --> 00:27:32,609 Talk me through that. 496 00:27:32,609 --> 00:27:35,445 Well, part of it is, 497 00:27:35,445 --> 00:27:38,031 you know, the things that we the positive things 498 00:27:38,031 --> 00:27:40,992 that we do, do and, 499 00:27:42,285 --> 00:27:46,039 just one in the whole area of abortion, 500 00:27:46,039 --> 00:27:50,502 like we do foster care and we do adoption and we support, 501 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,963 we do things to support single mothers and, 502 00:27:54,547 --> 00:27:57,050 and families that are struggling. 503 00:27:57,050 --> 00:28:02,806 And so, we get involved in, in those kinds of things and, 504 00:28:03,473 --> 00:28:07,227 In Sioux look out, where we live, where the churches are operating, 505 00:28:07,227 --> 00:28:11,398 a food bank, and there are people that, you know, they're housed, 506 00:28:11,398 --> 00:28:13,358 but they're really struggling. 507 00:28:13,358 --> 00:28:17,445 And if their lives get much more dysfunctional, 508 00:28:17,445 --> 00:28:19,239 they will lose their housing. 509 00:28:19,239 --> 00:28:23,493 But providing food is one way of helping them to be able to 510 00:28:23,493 --> 00:28:27,372 to at least stay housed and stay functional as a family. 511 00:28:27,372 --> 00:28:30,834 And so we we do those kinds of things. 512 00:28:31,167 --> 00:28:33,253 so, there's things that we do in our communities, 513 00:28:34,337 --> 00:28:37,090 but there's also things that we do 514 00:28:37,090 --> 00:28:41,886 internationally on a global more with more of a global perspective. 515 00:28:41,886 --> 00:28:45,640 When you think of the migration of people and refugees and, 516 00:28:46,266 --> 00:28:48,810 some of the crises around the world. 517 00:28:48,810 --> 00:28:53,940 we go there, we, we provide medical care. 518 00:28:53,940 --> 00:28:55,567 We provide. 519 00:28:55,567 --> 00:28:57,694 Help for people living in refugee camps. 520 00:28:57,694 --> 00:28:59,904 We. We. 521 00:28:59,904 --> 00:29:02,991 we get into situations where there is poverty 522 00:29:02,991 --> 00:29:06,828 and we work to bring change and to, to help to, 523 00:29:08,538 --> 00:29:10,165 for people to experience 524 00:29:10,165 --> 00:29:14,210 development and to to get a vision of what, what they, 525 00:29:14,335 --> 00:29:17,255 what they can do and, and how they can bring change 526 00:29:17,255 --> 00:29:18,882 into their lives, in their communities. 527 00:29:18,882 --> 00:29:20,717 And so 528 00:29:20,717 --> 00:29:23,887 we become very active because we just 529 00:29:24,637 --> 00:29:29,184 we know that, the gospel is good news to the poor. 530 00:29:29,601 --> 00:29:33,938 And Jesus came to release the captive and and, and, 531 00:29:34,397 --> 00:29:37,859 and and so it's we're doing those things, 532 00:29:38,151 --> 00:29:43,490 because we do believe that changes can come into the world. 533 00:29:45,992 --> 00:29:46,868 so that's, 534 00:29:46,868 --> 00:29:50,330 I think, an important piece where you're saying transformation 535 00:29:50,330 --> 00:29:53,625 and change, restoration and so forth is very possible. 536 00:29:54,250 --> 00:29:58,254 The issue is fixating on the wrong methods. 537 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,883 Is that a way of saying it? 538 00:30:02,133 --> 00:30:04,219 again, the obsession with power, 539 00:30:04,219 --> 00:30:08,598 like that's the thing with politics that always has bothered me is this push. 540 00:30:08,848 --> 00:30:12,310 We got to get our guys in power, like get, get, get on top of this thing 541 00:30:12,310 --> 00:30:17,190 and, push our way and, and it just feels so aggressive. 542 00:30:17,232 --> 00:30:21,069 And you look at what Jesus did and it was not that he didn't go around 543 00:30:21,152 --> 00:30:22,111 trying to dominate. 544 00:30:22,111 --> 00:30:25,615 And get in power and get as big of crowds around him as possible. 545 00:30:25,782 --> 00:30:28,868 There's multiple times of the New Testament where he sends the crowds away, 546 00:30:29,410 --> 00:30:32,413 which is so counter intuitive, 547 00:30:32,831 --> 00:30:36,543 at least for us here in America, is like, that's not really how we tend to think. 548 00:30:36,543 --> 00:30:37,961 It's like, how much influence can we get? 549 00:30:37,961 --> 00:30:41,756 How can we dominate this situation and push for real change? 550 00:30:41,881 --> 00:30:47,637 and one of the problems is when when politics courts the church, 551 00:30:48,888 --> 00:30:51,599 then the church 552 00:30:51,599 --> 00:30:52,016 acts. 553 00:30:52,016 --> 00:30:56,104 The church doesn't gain power, it doesn't gain control. 554 00:30:56,563 --> 00:31:01,651 It becomes, it becomes a support group for a political party. 555 00:31:01,651 --> 00:31:07,615 It becomes it becomes a, an interest group for a political party. 556 00:31:07,615 --> 00:31:12,245 And a political party will do just enough to make the church 557 00:31:12,245 --> 00:31:17,458 people think that they're going to do what they what they what they want. 558 00:31:17,584 --> 00:31:21,754 And but it gets intermingled with all the other interest groups 559 00:31:21,754 --> 00:31:24,924 that they have, the oil industry and the pharmaceutical companies. 560 00:31:24,924 --> 00:31:26,217 And then there's the church. 561 00:31:26,217 --> 00:31:29,554 And and so it becomes it just becomes a 562 00:31:29,554 --> 00:31:33,016 group, a support group for the political party. 563 00:31:33,016 --> 00:31:34,976 And it doesn't really gain. 564 00:31:34,976 --> 00:31:36,519 It doesn't really gain control. 565 00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:39,564 And a matter of fact, it kind of dilutes, 566 00:31:40,356 --> 00:31:42,901 I think, the power of the church 567 00:31:42,901 --> 00:31:48,114 in, in the community, because then we become identified as, oh, you're 568 00:31:49,073 --> 00:31:50,783 yeah, you support that political party. 569 00:31:50,783 --> 00:31:54,203 So then there's a whole segment of people that just kind of say, well, 570 00:31:54,829 --> 00:31:59,083 we'll we'll write you off then, And when we're when our position 571 00:31:59,083 --> 00:32:03,546 is nonpolitical, when it's not tied to a political party, 572 00:32:04,547 --> 00:32:07,675 then, it just is. 573 00:32:07,675 --> 00:32:12,639 It's just more powerful because you're not being co-opted by a political party. 574 00:32:14,265 --> 00:32:16,976 one of my friends was, he gave a lecture at, 575 00:32:16,976 --> 00:32:20,980 I think Ohio State University and about anabaptism. 576 00:32:20,980 --> 00:32:23,983 And after he was finished with his lecture, 577 00:32:24,859 --> 00:32:27,737 the professor said to him, I don't think you people realize 578 00:32:27,737 --> 00:32:32,533 the power of your position, and the power of your position is 579 00:32:33,451 --> 00:32:37,622 that you're not tied to a political system or a political party, 580 00:32:37,622 --> 00:32:41,084 like you're operating totally outside of that whole sphere. 581 00:32:41,793 --> 00:32:45,755 it's actually bringing change through a whole different system. 582 00:32:46,381 --> 00:32:49,384 And it's that much more of a grassroots 583 00:32:49,926 --> 00:32:54,138 level where people's hearts and lives are being changed and, 584 00:32:54,472 --> 00:32:58,726 and people's desires are being changed and, and people's lives are being changed. 585 00:32:58,726 --> 00:33:02,814 And then that brings change to this. 586 00:33:02,897 --> 00:33:05,692 It changes society at large. 587 00:33:05,692 --> 00:33:10,029 But it seems at first maybe more insignificant, 588 00:33:10,738 --> 00:33:13,658 and maybe it takes longer. But, 589 00:33:15,076 --> 00:33:17,453 but I think the changes are more long term. 590 00:33:17,453 --> 00:33:22,750 I was going to say it, it does seem like it takes longer, but but is more enduring 591 00:33:22,750 --> 00:33:26,838 or is lasting like it can using the example of Jesus three years. 592 00:33:26,838 --> 00:33:29,382 At the end of it, he has 11 disciples, 593 00:33:29,382 --> 00:33:33,011 you know, and then it's quite a number of years yet till the church 594 00:33:33,011 --> 00:33:36,014 gets to any substantial numbers within the Roman Empire. 595 00:33:36,139 --> 00:33:39,142 but it was like this slow, almost like a, 596 00:33:39,642 --> 00:33:42,437 a patient, slow development. 597 00:33:42,437 --> 00:33:45,398 But it was so much more enduring and it had so much more resilience to it. 598 00:33:45,982 --> 00:33:48,484 So as we think of all these things, 599 00:33:48,484 --> 00:33:51,988 we've hit a bunch of different, angles to this conversation. 600 00:33:51,988 --> 00:33:54,866 I'm sure there's a lot more there's lots of different opinions out there. 601 00:33:54,866 --> 00:33:57,493 but for those listening to this, 602 00:33:58,536 --> 00:34:00,496 what are ways they can get involved? 603 00:34:00,496 --> 00:34:04,917 What are some things they can do now that do side with those longer, 604 00:34:05,209 --> 00:34:06,502 enduring changes? 605 00:34:06,502 --> 00:34:09,797 There's deeper impact in people's lives and especially 606 00:34:10,339 --> 00:34:13,843 pulling back from whatever country they're in as they listen to this 607 00:34:14,135 --> 00:34:16,971 and say, actually, I want to focus on Jesus's kingdom 608 00:34:16,971 --> 00:34:20,892 and building that because that's something so much bigger and last so much longer. 609 00:34:21,350 --> 00:34:22,518 How do they go about that? 610 00:34:22,518 --> 00:34:25,688 How are ways they can impact society around them, their neighbors, 611 00:34:25,938 --> 00:34:26,606 their neighbors? 612 00:34:26,606 --> 00:34:29,150 Based on the things you've been sharing here? 613 00:34:29,150 --> 00:34:29,400 Yeah. 614 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,237 Well, I think it's, first of all, the power of community 615 00:34:33,404 --> 00:34:36,407 and being connected to a community, 616 00:34:36,407 --> 00:34:39,410 to a community of faith, and 617 00:34:39,452 --> 00:34:44,665 and then that community of faith becomes a platform for doing 618 00:34:44,665 --> 00:34:48,169 what needs to be done in the community and learning to know our neighbors, 619 00:34:48,711 --> 00:34:51,714 just connecting with the people 620 00:34:52,131 --> 00:34:56,719 around us and, and knowing the five people 621 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,473 who lived closest to us and building relationships 622 00:35:01,432 --> 00:35:04,435 and the kingdom of God is 623 00:35:04,852 --> 00:35:10,274 is, it's it's working in the world, but it's also invitational. 624 00:35:10,274 --> 00:35:11,692 You can be part of this. 625 00:35:11,692 --> 00:35:14,487 and as we build relationships, we impact 626 00:35:14,487 --> 00:35:17,490 society around us in, in positive ways. 627 00:35:17,532 --> 00:35:21,369 And it's invitational in which you can be part of this. 628 00:35:21,369 --> 00:35:24,163 This is for you. And, 629 00:35:24,163 --> 00:35:27,041 and I think we get engaged in things 630 00:35:27,041 --> 00:35:30,044 that will, 631 00:35:30,211 --> 00:35:32,922 provide wealth, and provide health 632 00:35:32,922 --> 00:35:35,925 and well-being in our communities. 633 00:35:36,008 --> 00:35:39,011 And there's a whole concept of, 634 00:35:40,096 --> 00:35:43,391 well, the Hebrew concept of shalom, which we often 635 00:35:43,391 --> 00:35:46,602 think of as peace, but actually it's more comprehensive than that. 636 00:35:46,602 --> 00:35:51,023 It's like a whole concept of well-being, like it's working for everyone. 637 00:35:51,607 --> 00:35:55,903 And and so we work for that in our communities. 638 00:35:55,903 --> 00:35:58,906 And you can 639 00:35:58,948 --> 00:36:01,450 you can suppress violence with greater violence. 640 00:36:01,450 --> 00:36:06,205 So whoever has the biggest gun can, but you don't solve the problems. 641 00:36:06,205 --> 00:36:10,126 All you do is suppress violence or you suppress dissent 642 00:36:10,334 --> 00:36:13,296 because you have more you by the use of force. 643 00:36:13,296 --> 00:36:16,924 But when you step aside from the from the use of force, 644 00:36:17,633 --> 00:36:21,345 then you can deal with the issues and the problems, 645 00:36:22,638 --> 00:36:23,181 to where 646 00:36:23,181 --> 00:36:26,517 you really bring well-being to the community 647 00:36:26,976 --> 00:36:30,646 and you work for a society that really works well for everyone. 648 00:36:31,689 --> 00:36:33,983 And then then you don't need force. 649 00:36:33,983 --> 00:36:37,612 you don't need to use force to suppress 650 00:36:38,863 --> 00:36:40,907 bad behavior and, 651 00:36:40,907 --> 00:36:43,534 and violence because you're really working for well-being. 652 00:36:43,534 --> 00:36:46,871 And so I think we work for the well-being of everybody in the community. And, 653 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,918 and do that through whatever avenues but the community of faith, 654 00:36:51,918 --> 00:36:55,296 the church becomes the platform to 655 00:36:55,296 --> 00:36:58,758 to do that and not some nationalist 656 00:36:58,758 --> 00:37:01,969 system or, or something like that or a political entity. 657 00:37:01,969 --> 00:37:04,972 It's it's, God's people working together 658 00:37:05,181 --> 00:37:08,184 for, for the betterment of of the people around them. 659 00:37:08,226 --> 00:37:11,229 Yeah. yeah. Well, that's really good. 660 00:37:11,229 --> 00:37:16,108 I hope this episode is inspiring to some people to not, 661 00:37:17,193 --> 00:37:19,779 you know, not the typical bashing on nationalism, 662 00:37:19,779 --> 00:37:22,573 which is kind of easy to do and like, oh, you know, politics. 663 00:37:22,573 --> 00:37:23,282 It's so. Yeah. 664 00:37:23,282 --> 00:37:27,286 And that's true politics is kind of a mess and so forth. 665 00:37:27,286 --> 00:37:31,374 But actually they I'm hoping will come away from hearing this and say, 666 00:37:31,540 --> 00:37:33,417 okay, but how can I get to know my neighbors? 667 00:37:33,417 --> 00:37:35,336 How can I help the widow down the street? 668 00:37:35,336 --> 00:37:38,965 How can I better society in that way and contribute in that way? 669 00:37:39,340 --> 00:37:43,219 especially again, we're going into election here soon in America, 670 00:37:43,219 --> 00:37:47,848 and there's going to be a lot of time spent, you know, 671 00:37:47,848 --> 00:37:53,145 watching the news or reading the articles or talking about it and all this stuff. 672 00:37:53,145 --> 00:37:56,816 And what if we we turn all that energy towards helping your neighbor? 673 00:37:57,024 --> 00:38:00,027 You know, it's really easy to talk about how terrible things are, 674 00:38:00,027 --> 00:38:03,781 but actually going out and helping someone is actually is hard sometimes. 675 00:38:05,366 --> 00:38:06,242 is there anything you'd like 676 00:38:06,242 --> 00:38:09,245 to say as we, bring this episode to a close? 677 00:38:09,287 --> 00:38:12,123 Well, the first presidential election that I remember 678 00:38:12,123 --> 00:38:15,126 in my lifetime was, 1960, 679 00:38:15,626 --> 00:38:18,629 when Richard Nixon was running against John F Kennedy. 680 00:38:19,088 --> 00:38:22,091 And there was a lot of pressure in Anabaptist communities. 681 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,969 You must vote for Nixon. 682 00:38:24,969 --> 00:38:28,139 Like, if we have a Catholic president, we're going to be under the pope. 683 00:38:28,306 --> 00:38:31,183 And, you know, we're not going to have religious freedom, 684 00:38:31,183 --> 00:38:36,856 like we're going to have a state church and we cannot have Kennedy as president. 685 00:38:37,189 --> 00:38:40,359 And, well, Kennedy 686 00:38:40,359 --> 00:38:43,988 won the election, and we still have religious freedom. 687 00:38:44,238 --> 00:38:47,241 And Nixon didn't turn out to be 688 00:38:47,283 --> 00:38:50,411 a very reputable person in the long term, either. 689 00:38:50,995 --> 00:38:54,915 And it's just a reminder that things aren't always as they appear 690 00:38:54,915 --> 00:38:56,167 in the moment. 691 00:38:56,167 --> 00:39:01,756 And I think in almost every election in my lifetime, 692 00:39:02,757 --> 00:39:05,718 people have said this is the most important election ever. 693 00:39:05,718 --> 00:39:08,721 If you don't vote this time, like, this is everything, 694 00:39:08,804 --> 00:39:10,264 you know, we're just going to lose our freedom. 695 00:39:10,264 --> 00:39:11,557 Everything's going to be lost. 696 00:39:11,557 --> 00:39:14,727 And people on both sides of the political spectrum Yeah. 697 00:39:14,727 --> 00:39:15,478 That's interesting. 698 00:39:15,478 --> 00:39:18,564 Now that you say that, I'm thinking back to all elections 699 00:39:18,564 --> 00:39:21,233 that I've lived through, it seems that always comes out somewhere. 700 00:39:21,233 --> 00:39:25,029 And Oh, this most important election of our lifetimes, every, every time, it's 701 00:39:25,154 --> 00:39:25,488 Yeah. 702 00:39:25,488 --> 00:39:28,491 But when you think back 20 or 30 years, 703 00:39:29,658 --> 00:39:32,703 the person who won didn't I mean, it didn't 704 00:39:32,703 --> 00:39:36,624 turn out to be a disaster that the other side predicted. 705 00:39:36,624 --> 00:39:41,879 So I just think we overrate the importance of politics 706 00:39:42,421 --> 00:39:45,758 and we underrate the power of the kingdom of God. 707 00:39:47,593 --> 00:39:50,554 I think that's a excellent point to end it on. 708 00:39:50,554 --> 00:39:56,143 And with that encouragement of pour into God's kingdom, build his kingdom, 709 00:39:56,143 --> 00:39:59,772 and focus on, Focus on that and serve your neighbors. 710 00:40:00,064 --> 00:40:01,649 You love your enemies. Yeah. 711 00:40:01,649 --> 00:40:03,067 Thanks so much for sharing. 712 00:40:03,067 --> 00:40:04,151 I appreciate you coming on. 713 00:40:04,151 --> 00:40:05,319 Your Welcome, Yeah. 714 00:40:06,237 --> 00:40:09,448 Thanks for listening to this episode with Merle Burkholder. 715 00:40:09,907 --> 00:40:11,283 If you found this topic interesting, 716 00:40:11,283 --> 00:40:15,538 we actually produced an entire audiobook on this topic by David Bercot. 717 00:40:15,579 --> 00:40:19,625 It's called In God We Don't Trust, and you can find it linked down below. 718 00:40:19,834 --> 00:40:22,753 You can get it anywhere you get your audio books. 719 00:40:22,753 --> 00:40:25,381 Thanks again for listening, and we'll catch you in the next 720 00:40:25,381 --> 00:40:26,173 episode. 721 00:48:58,602 --> 00:49:01,980 politics is fueled by fear and rage. 722 00:49:02,105 --> 00:49:05,442 And so if you can, if people are either afraid or they're angry, 723 00:49:05,943 --> 00:49:08,946 they'll turn out to vote. And so politicians 724 00:49:10,238 --> 00:49:12,366 fuel fear and 725 00:49:12,366 --> 00:49:16,203 rage in order to, to motivate people to go to the polls. 726 00:49:16,370 --> 00:49:19,581 and there are things that should make us angry. 727 00:49:19,581 --> 00:49:22,584 There are things that should make us concerned. 728 00:49:22,584 --> 00:49:24,753 But what we do about that 729 00:49:24,753 --> 00:49:30,092 is, is where the difference comes in for us as as followers of Christ. 730 00:49:30,092 --> 00:49:33,095 And so then 731 00:49:38,725 --> 00:49:39,267 the problem 732 00:49:39,267 --> 00:49:42,354 with nationalism is it's such a small idea. 733 00:49:42,354 --> 00:49:45,440 It's just one, one little geographical region, 734 00:49:46,108 --> 00:49:50,070 and the rest of the world is kind of well, it's it's it's not even thought about. 735 00:49:50,070 --> 00:49:53,073 And it's just like, well, we're really going to do something 736 00:49:53,073 --> 00:49:54,241 right here in this country. 737 00:49:54,241 --> 00:49:56,618 But but what about the rest of the world? 738 00:49:56,618 --> 00:50:00,789 And the kingdom of God is just this global thing that removes 739 00:50:01,331 --> 00:50:05,127 all the barriers and all of the distinctions that 740 00:50:06,253 --> 00:50:07,838 people make. 741 00:50:07,838 --> 00:50:10,841 And, and so it's it's a much bigger, grander 742 00:50:10,966 --> 00:50:14,678 idea and concept than, than nationalism. 743 01:01:08,790 --> 01:01:11,250 there would be very much would be interest there now. 744 01:01:11,250 --> 01:01:14,462 So one thing it just because we have interest in it, we love to do it. 745 01:01:15,171 --> 01:01:17,048 because we've actually talked to about it a little bit. 746 01:01:17,048 --> 01:01:19,258 Just because you can see the chatter doing, 747 01:01:19,258 --> 01:01:22,428 it doesn't mean necessarily that we won't write time. 748 01:01:22,428 --> 01:01:23,680 Sure. It takes effort. 749 01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:25,598 It just doesn't work right. 750 01:01:25,598 --> 01:01:27,475 For the last conversation. 751 01:01:27,475 --> 01:01:28,476 Right? Good. 752 01:01:28,476 --> 01:01:29,894 Going back to overload. 753 01:01:29,894 --> 01:01:35,316 Yeah, we're already way ridiculously, disappointingly, embarrassingly so. 754 01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:39,737 behind on schedule with the Frank Reed project in collaboration with SBI. 755 01:01:39,737 --> 01:01:42,782 We're about a year into that, and we still haven't released anything yet. 756 01:01:42,990 --> 01:01:44,075 Embarrassingly. Very. 757 01:01:44,075 --> 01:01:44,492 Yeah, but 758 01:01:44,492 --> 01:01:45,535 but my excuse is 759 01:01:45,535 --> 01:01:48,538 we just we're hiring two full time people and that takes a lot of work. 760 01:01:48,579 --> 01:01:51,124 And but those are just excuses. 761 01:01:51,124 --> 01:01:55,962 We need to start delivering on them on on some and some of our commitments. 762 01:01:56,462 --> 01:01:58,589 But I'm sorry. 763 01:01:58,589 --> 01:02:01,300 And even if you couldn't do it, if you could help us figure out how to 764 01:02:02,927 --> 01:02:03,469 how to get it 765 01:02:03,469 --> 01:02:06,472 done, that would might be helpful. 766 01:02:06,723 --> 01:02:10,017 Will it take you back to your board and say there's interest on our end? 767 01:02:10,017 --> 01:02:10,893 I think I can say