Speaker: 00:00:00

Real change comes to

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the world through the Kingdom of God

and through Christ,

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changing the hearts of, of people

and that, you know, empires come and go.

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So you have the Greek Empire

and the Roman Empire, and they all

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I mean, they they come and go,

but the Kingdom of God is

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is an everlasting kingdom and it’s

without end.

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Welcome back to Anabaptist Perspectives.

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we're joined by Merle Burkholder

today. And.

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Merle, you've been involved in ministry

for 45 years.

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You've been in, in church leadership

for a good while now.

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you do a lot of teaching and so forth.

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And one of the core concepts

within the Anabaptist worldview is,

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is how we relate

to the nations that we live within.

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And you helped write a article on this.

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Yeah. Which we'll link down below.

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Dealing with some of this.

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And we're gonna dive into that

because hardly needs to be said.

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But we're filming this in an election year

here in America, and

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especially

it feels like the last number of years,

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the political scene

has gotten very aggressive

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and has seemed to dominate

so many conversations in society,

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and that is bleeding over into our

churches, which causes a lot of confusion.

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You know,

what do we do with these questions?

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How how do we handle these things

where there's so much, fear and rage

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and all these unknowns about our country

and so forth?

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What's the proper response?

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So we want to get into that feels, again,

particularly poignant and relevant right

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now, with the current election

that's coming up here

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in a couple of months

as of this recording.

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So let's jump into that.

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yeah.

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Do you have words to say

as far as introduction at,

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you know, laying the context of

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for the conversation

and then we'll just jump in from there?

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Yeah.

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Nationalism is,

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something that has a pull,

it has an allure for our people.

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part of it is that,

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we've never lived anywhere

this long without being persecuted.

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So, we're in new territory,

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and we've been frugal and have worked

hard, so we've become prosperous.

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And so we have things, and we've lived

here a long time in this country.

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And so we can begin to identify

as Americans or Canadians

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and begin to see ourselves as citizens

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of this country, which we are.

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and there's a lot of things

that are wrong in society.

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There's a lot of things that bother us

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that that are not the way

they ought to be.

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And we see change that should happen

in society and legitimately so.

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And so we say, well,

how is that going to happen?

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How is how is change going to come?

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And politicians offer

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hope for change

and that there's going to be they can make

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it happen and they're the one who can,

you know, solve the problems.

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And, And then when politicians come,

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that may have, maybe a pro-business

agenda

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or they, seem to agree with us

on some social issues.

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then we can get drawn into.

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Well, they'll fix it.

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and that's the way to

to bring change to the country and, and

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and we and we want our way of life

to be preserved.

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And we want to be able

to live the way we live.

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And and we lose that pilgrim

and stranger concept

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that we'll live wherever

we need to live, to practice our faith.

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And so if we can't do it here,

maybe we'll move to Uganda and and.

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Do it there,

but it's it's not site specific.

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We can practice our faith.

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We will live where we need to live,

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to practice our faith. And we become

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we want to defend

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our way of life in the country

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in which we're living,

and feel like we have a right to live here

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and we need to be, able to live the way

we live.

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And and another thing that's happened

is that,

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Since World War two,

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we've become accustomed

to the approval of society

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and that people say, oh,

you Mennonites, you're good people.

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And and you're we really like you,

and you just have a nice way of life and,

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and you're really good people.

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And we've forgotten

that what it means to live

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in an atmosphere

where society thinks we're wrong

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and that,

we're not necessarily good people.

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And, and so and there's never been

a good time to be a Christian.

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To be a committed

Christian is is always counter culture.

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but there's a pressure to get drawn

into the culture of our,

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of our, of the society

around us and to feel like.

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government and

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politicians

are the ones that can, can bring change.

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And then, politicians feed into that

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by using religion

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as, as a way to create support

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for their agenda and, and what they want.

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And politics is fueled by fear and rage.

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And so if you can, if people are either

afraid or they're angry,

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they'll turn out to vote.

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And so politicians

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fuel fear and rage in order

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to, to motivate people to go to the polls.

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and there are things

that should make us angry.

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There are things

that should make us concerned.

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But what we do about that

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is, is where the difference comes in

for us as as followers of Christ.

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And so then politicians will use

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religious language to,

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well, it gets it gets

it gets co-opted for political purposes.

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So a couple of years ago, President

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Biden, made a statement saying

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when the Lord asks whom shall I send the

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the American military has been answering

that call for a long time.

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Here am I send me so...

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that's

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interesting biblical hermeneutics

being applied there.

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wow.

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But when we begin to think

that the American military

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is answering God's call,

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it just distorts

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the whole basis of, of Scripture.

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And and, you know, Isaiah's call

wasn't a call to the military.

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that isn't

what God asked him to do at all.

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and, in the: 2020

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state of the Union address,

President Trump had, the widow

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of, of a, soldier that had been killed

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in, in battle or in service.

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And his widow was in the gallery

at the state of the Union address

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and president Trump

asked her to stand, recognized her,

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and then he, said,

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you know, right now

your husband is looking down on us and

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and it's it's almost like

if you lose your life in the military,

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like it's a ticket to heaven,

like you're going to be.

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So it gets close to,

some other religions, like Islam's

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concept of if you're a martyr,

you're you're going to Paradise.

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And it's not like dying in military

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service is not a, an assurance of,

of going to heaven.

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And but those, those things

can get into our thinking

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and we can feel like,

like that's the answer.

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And, and then we see politicians

that they may do things

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that we like and things that we support

and things that we agree with.

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And we're like, see, it works like they

they got it done.

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but the problem is

that political solutions

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are temporary solutions, like you win

and you lose

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political battles.

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And so while there may be short term

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results, they're not enduring,

they're not lasting.

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And so just thinking about,

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just thinking about the abortion

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question, for decades,

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the Republican Party used abortion

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as a way of motivating their base, like,

we have to overturn Roe v Wade.

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And so you come out, you vote.

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We'll get that done.

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And for decades, they motivated people

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To vote.

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And there were people who said,

I don't care about anything else.

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I'm a one issue voter.

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I'm just voting on abortion.

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That's the only issue that matters to me.

The rest is all.

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Whether they're militaristic

or whatever is is a side issue.

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I'm voting on the issue of abortion.

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So then President Trump did what he said

he would.

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He appointed three conservative justices.

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They overturn Roe v Wade.

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Now, the anger

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and the fear on the

abortion issue has shifted

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to the other side.

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And so now the Democratic Party

will use it

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as a way

of bringing their people to the polls.

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And and we have to overturn

we have to restore these things. And.

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and so someday it may go the other way.

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And, and so it's just it's a short term

it's a short term solution.

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And, and it's, politics isn't

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doesn't make long term grassroots change.

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So it hasn't changed.

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You can overturn Roe v Wade but it doesn't

change the demand for abortion.

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It doesn't.

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There's still people who want abortions.

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And so it it

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it doesn't bring change

at the grassroots level.

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So is this a challenge of

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methods as in what's

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going to actually work

or is it more than that.

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or maybe a little bit of both.

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well, it's a little bit of both.

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it's it's, how does change happen?

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And, but it's some,

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a recognition that real change comes

to the world through the kingdom of God

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and through Christ

changing the hearts of, of people.

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And that, you know, empires come and go.

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So you have the Greek Empire

and the Roman Empire, and they all

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I mean, they they come and go,

but the kingdom of God is

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is an everlasting

kingdom and is without end. And,

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when you think about when,

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like Jesus lived in a time of,

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political oppression for Israel and,

and people wanted to make him a king

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and wanted him to be a revolutionary

and get rid of the Romans and establish,

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a godly kingdom in

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Israel and, and and,

and he didn't do that.

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He, he didn't have any interest in that.

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A matter of fact, when they were going

to take him to be king, he would

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he would disappear.

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And and he he he didn't

he didn't allow them to

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to put him into that

position or into that slot.

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And he could

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have he probably I mean, he, he,

he could have

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taken that position

and but let's think about even

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if he would have been successful, like,

what if he would have become

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the king of Israel

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and he would have been able to somehow

defeat the Romans and establish

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a nation of Israel

and restore the worship of God in Israel.

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And it would have been

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like today, 2000 years later,

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what would be the the result of that?

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It would be rather

minimal compared to what he actually did

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when he brought in the kingdom of God

and and how that's changed

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lives way beyond the boundaries of Israel

and all around the world.

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You have people

who are followers of Christ,

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and it has it's permeated societies

all around the world.

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And the problem with nationalism

is it's such a small idea.

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It's just one,

one little geographical region,

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and the rest of the world is kind of well,

it's it's it's not even thought about.

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And it's just like,

well, we're really going to do something

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right here in this country.

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But but what about the rest of the world?

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And the kingdom of God

is just this global thing that removes

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all the barriers

and all of the distinctions that

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people make.

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And, and so it's it's a much bigger,

grander

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idea and concept than, than nationalism.

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I think that was an important concept

for myself

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when thinking through the

these challenges with, with nationalism.

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And that is

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America, population wise, is

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only 4% of, of the world, 4%,

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which is very little

in the grand scheme of things.

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And, and that made me kind of stop

and be like, oh,

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maybe we're not quite as significant

as we like to think we are, which you have

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the American complex of thinking

we're we're the best thing ever.

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but then you have the other side, too,

where you scale it back

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and say that the global church is this

massive entity that covers every basically

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every nation, not every people group,

but but basically every country.

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And, is way bigger, way, way, way bigger

and more enduring than America

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will ever be.

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And also this thought that,

you know, one day, every country that

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that now exists will probably not exist

because things change.

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I mean, if you read through history,

you take any of the countries

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that existed then and things change,

borders, move, etc.

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maybe we're dealing on a timescale

that's too, too small or too, short.

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Is that like if we're getting

wrapped up into nationalism, I should say,

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how does that resonate?

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What would you say to that?

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Yeah, I think that's exactly right.

251

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We focus on the short term

rather than the long term.

252

00:14:26,282 --> 00:14:28,868

And when we focus on the long term,

253

00:14:28,868 --> 00:14:33,163

then we're thinking

about the kingdom of God and and that

254

00:14:33,163 --> 00:14:37,710

eternal kingdom, that everlasting kingdom

that is without end.

255

00:14:37,710 --> 00:14:41,338

And and we invest in something

that really is enduring

256

00:14:42,214 --> 00:14:46,010

and something that really has potential

for the for the long term.

257

00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,763

So maybe a, possible way of,

258

00:14:50,055 --> 00:14:52,349

of thinking about this and dealing

259

00:14:52,349 --> 00:14:55,352

with, with nationalism is simply

260

00:14:55,728 --> 00:14:58,731

to encourage people

to think on bigger timescales.

261

00:14:59,607 --> 00:15:02,276

you know, that seems a bit simplistic,

but I actually wonder if

262

00:15:02,276 --> 00:15:06,655

what if we were thinking in timescales

of 500 years or a thousand years from now,

263

00:15:06,947 --> 00:15:07,907

what's going to be here

264

00:15:09,033 --> 00:15:10,367

exactly Yeah.

265

00:15:10,367 --> 00:15:15,539

and also

to think beyond our own ethnicity,

266

00:15:15,539 --> 00:15:23,130

our own, our own nationality and that it's

so much bigger than all that.

267

00:15:23,464 --> 00:15:27,635

And, it's something that that is, is

268

00:15:27,635 --> 00:15:30,638

way broader than one, one country.

269

00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:33,349

So that's interesting about, you know,

270

00:15:33,349 --> 00:15:36,644

we identify as citizens of the countries

we live in.

271

00:15:36,644 --> 00:15:40,105

I mean, in the sense that I have

an American passport or so forth.

272

00:15:40,397 --> 00:15:41,941

You're a dual citizen.

273

00:15:41,941 --> 00:15:42,983

So how does that work?

274

00:15:42,983 --> 00:15:46,779

You're both Canadian and an American

citizen, I wonder, does that give you any

275

00:15:47,905 --> 00:15:53,911

extra insight if you have multiple

countries now that you can identify with?

276

00:15:54,203 --> 00:15:56,246

Does that change the narrative

for you at all?

277

00:15:56,246 --> 00:15:59,166

Is that a helpful piece of context for us

here?

278

00:15:59,166 --> 00:16:00,918

Well,

one of the things that was interesting was

279

00:16:00,918 --> 00:16:05,673

I was born in the United States,

so I was an American citizen, at birth.

280

00:16:05,839 --> 00:16:10,719

And then we moved to Canada and I became

naturalized as a Canadian citizen.

281

00:16:10,886 --> 00:16:12,554

But before I did that,

282

00:16:13,722 --> 00:16:15,057

took that step.

283

00:16:15,057 --> 00:16:18,018

I didn't want to lose my United States

citizenship.

284

00:16:18,018 --> 00:16:22,773

So I wrote a letter to the State

Department saying, can I retain my U.S.

285

00:16:22,773 --> 00:16:26,026

citizenship

if I'm naturalized as a Canadian citizen?

286

00:16:26,777 --> 00:16:30,197

So they sent me a 20 page document

with all the reasons

287

00:16:30,197 --> 00:16:31,323

why it's not a good idea.

288

00:16:31,323 --> 00:16:35,869

And and then the last 2 or 3 pages were,

however, it is possible.

289

00:16:35,869 --> 00:16:39,665

And here's some things that if you decide

to do it, these will help you.

290

00:16:39,707 --> 00:16:43,711

One of the things was that I could make,

291

00:16:43,961 --> 00:16:46,714

a notarized statement

292

00:16:46,714 --> 00:16:50,718

that I don't intend to, forfeit my U.S.

293

00:16:50,718 --> 00:16:51,677

citizenship.

294

00:16:51,677 --> 00:16:55,264

And I intend to fulfill

the responsibilities

295

00:16:56,015 --> 00:16:59,018

of a citizen of the United States.

296

00:16:59,018 --> 00:17:00,519

by doing the following things.

297

00:17:00,519 --> 00:17:03,397

And so I went to a lawyer, and I.

298

00:17:03,397 --> 00:17:07,359

I drew up this this paper,

and I made a list of things that,

299

00:17:07,568 --> 00:17:09,278

these are things that I will do

300

00:17:09,278 --> 00:17:12,322

as a faithful citizen

of the United States of America.

301

00:17:12,322 --> 00:17:15,117

I will pay my taxes. I will obey the laws.

302

00:17:15,117 --> 00:17:16,535

And I forgot what all was on the list.

303

00:17:16,535 --> 00:17:18,829

But obviously military service

wasn't one of them.

304

00:17:18,829 --> 00:17:22,916

But, here are the things that I will do

as a faithful citizen

305

00:17:22,916 --> 00:17:23,667

of the United States.

306

00:17:23,667 --> 00:17:26,879

So I have also have a citizenship

307

00:17:26,879 --> 00:17:29,882

in the kingdom of of heaven,

the kingdom of God.

308

00:17:30,007 --> 00:17:31,508

That's my primary allegiance.

309

00:17:31,508 --> 00:17:33,552

That's my primary identity.

310

00:17:33,552 --> 00:17:38,640

I am a citizen of of the kingdom of God.

311

00:17:38,891 --> 00:17:40,267

And so that's my primary identity.

312

00:17:40,267 --> 00:17:43,520

However, I live in Canada and I will.

313

00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,439

And when I took the,

314

00:17:45,439 --> 00:17:49,234

when I went to the citizenship ceremony

to become a citizen of Canada,

315

00:17:49,234 --> 00:17:54,531

I had to affirm that I will be a loyal

subject of Queen Elizabeth the Second.

316

00:17:54,531 --> 00:18:00,245

And so I said that I will be a loyal

subject of Queen Elizabeth the Second.

317

00:18:00,245 --> 00:18:03,207

And so there are things that I do

318

00:18:03,749 --> 00:18:06,543

as a loyal citizen

319

00:18:06,543 --> 00:18:10,172

of the British Empire,

I guess, and or the Dominion of Canada.

320

00:18:11,757 --> 00:18:13,300

But I still recognize that

321

00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:17,346

my primary allegiance

is to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

322

00:18:17,346 --> 00:18:20,933

And so I I'll be a I'll be a

I'll be a loyal subject of well,

323

00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:26,772

King Charles, but my primary loyalty

is to the King of kings and Lord of lords.

324

00:18:26,772 --> 00:18:31,401

And so I'm I'll do these things

as a citizen of the United States.

325

00:18:31,902 --> 00:18:33,153

file a tax return.

326

00:18:33,153 --> 00:18:34,613

I'll do the things that they require.

327

00:18:34,613 --> 00:18:37,574

I'll be a loyal subject of King Charles.

328

00:18:37,616 --> 00:18:40,619

But I am, primarily

329

00:18:40,911 --> 00:18:45,457

a child of the King and and, a servant

of the King of kings and Lord of lords.

330

00:18:45,457 --> 00:18:48,710

And so,

you know, we do have responsibilities

331

00:18:49,461 --> 00:18:50,629

to the nations we live in.

332

00:18:50,629 --> 00:18:54,466

And there are rights and

and responsibilities of being,

333

00:18:54,716 --> 00:18:59,513

a resident

and a citizen of, an earthly kingdom.

334

00:19:00,430 --> 00:19:01,181

But we

335

00:19:01,181 --> 00:19:04,184

always remember

that we do have another citizenship.

336

00:19:04,309 --> 00:19:08,480

And that's where our primary, that's

where our primary loyalty is.

337

00:19:08,856 --> 00:19:13,902

And one of the things that,

the United States government said was,

338

00:19:13,902 --> 00:19:14,862

you have to think about

339

00:19:14,862 --> 00:19:18,198

if you become citizen of another country,

what if those two countries go to war?

340

00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,201

Who are you going to,

341

00:19:21,201 --> 00:19:22,035

what are you going to do?

342

00:19:22,035 --> 00:19:25,038

You could really

you could be drafted by both countries

343

00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:29,334

And, and we have to recognize

there are times when the kingdom of God

344

00:19:29,334 --> 00:19:31,837

and the kingdoms of this earth

are in conflict.

345

00:19:31,837 --> 00:19:35,424

And and in those moments,

our primary loyalty is to the

346

00:19:35,424 --> 00:19:37,593

is to the kingdom of God.

347

00:19:37,593 --> 00:19:40,596

And that's

where that's where we default to.

348

00:19:41,138 --> 00:19:45,475

So you're saying primary allegiance

to Jesus and his kingdom?

349

00:19:46,393 --> 00:19:49,938

What would you say to someone who says,

well, absolutely, I believe that.

350

00:19:49,938 --> 00:19:53,317

And because that's my primary goal,

351

00:19:54,234 --> 00:19:58,864

I believe I should become involved

in, voting nationalism,

352

00:19:59,156 --> 00:20:02,242

the political system here in America

or wherever their country is.

353

00:20:02,659 --> 00:20:04,161

And they believe that that's the best,

354

00:20:04,161 --> 00:20:08,373

that that is a great way

they can serve Jesus and his kingdom.

355

00:20:08,373 --> 00:20:10,918

What would you say to that again?

Does this come back to you?

356

00:20:10,918 --> 00:20:14,379

Well, you have the methods wrong

or is there more to it?

357

00:20:14,463 --> 00:20:15,923

Yeah.

What do you say to someone like that?

358

00:20:17,090 --> 00:20:19,009

Well, I feel like,

359

00:20:19,009 --> 00:20:20,719

if I'm going to get engaged

360

00:20:20,719 --> 00:20:22,554

if I'm going to get engaged

361

00:20:22,804 --> 00:20:26,225

in the politics of a nation,

362

00:20:26,225 --> 00:20:30,229

whether it's the United States or Canada,

363

00:20:30,646 --> 00:20:35,776

I can begin to see that involvement

as politics,

364

00:20:35,776 --> 00:20:40,197

as the solution

to the problems of the country.

365

00:20:40,822 --> 00:20:43,700

And it's it's and it's

366

00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:46,078

very limited in what it actually

367

00:20:46,078 --> 00:20:48,664

can do compared to

368

00:20:48,664 --> 00:20:51,458

what the kingdom of God can do.

369

00:20:51,458 --> 00:20:54,670

And so I want to be so busy

370

00:20:55,587 --> 00:20:58,590

in the kingdom of God

that I don't have time

371

00:20:58,966 --> 00:21:01,969

to really figure out who

372

00:21:02,052 --> 00:21:05,597

who is the best

politician to be, to be in power

373

00:21:06,348 --> 00:21:09,351

And I think it's also

a conflict of interest.

374

00:21:09,893 --> 00:21:13,563

If the president of the United States

375

00:21:13,689 --> 00:21:17,109

states

is the commander in chief of the military.

376

00:21:17,192 --> 00:21:19,611

How can I

377

00:21:19,611 --> 00:21:22,614

be part of appointing somebody to be

378

00:21:22,698 --> 00:21:25,367

the commander in chief of the military?

379

00:21:25,367 --> 00:21:28,787

When I just think,

I mean, I can't participate,

380

00:21:28,787 --> 00:21:33,125

I am so then I think I'm in a conflict.

381

00:21:33,125 --> 00:21:35,877

I think I'm in a conflict of of interests.

382

00:21:35,877 --> 00:21:41,508

if I'm if I'm voting and if I'm getting

involved in the political or

383

00:21:42,592 --> 00:21:45,595

in the political process.

384

00:21:46,054 --> 00:21:46,513

yeah.

385

00:21:46,513 --> 00:21:49,516

That's that is a really good point,

because if

386

00:21:49,933 --> 00:21:53,812

you're involved in the process

of appointing the commander in chief, but,

387

00:21:53,979 --> 00:21:58,734

but also holding to a stance

of nonviolence or, radical enemy love

388

00:21:58,775 --> 00:22:01,820

or however you want to say it

and then say there is a war and a draft,

389

00:22:01,820 --> 00:22:06,408

and that commander in chief now asks you

to serve or requires you to serve.

390

00:22:06,408 --> 00:22:09,995

And you say, well, no, that does seem like

that's not consistent.

391

00:22:10,370 --> 00:22:12,998

Really at all.

392

00:22:12,998 --> 00:22:13,290

Yeah.

393

00:22:13,290 --> 00:22:17,544

And I think that, you know,

there are people then that say,

394

00:22:17,544 --> 00:22:22,841

well you're just you're just benefiting

then from what

395

00:22:22,841 --> 00:22:27,721

the rest of us are doing and, you know,

we're, we're getting involved politically.

396

00:22:27,721 --> 00:22:29,681

And so the whole thing of,

397

00:22:30,766 --> 00:22:34,311

of, well, if good people do nothing,

then evil reigns.

398

00:22:34,561 --> 00:22:37,981

And so if you don't vote,

if all the good people don't vote,

399

00:22:37,981 --> 00:22:40,984

then we're going to have bad politicians,

right?

400

00:22:40,984 --> 00:22:43,612

And, but

401

00:22:43,612 --> 00:22:47,616

it's not,

it's not an either or situation.

402

00:22:47,616 --> 00:22:49,785

It's not either. I vote

403

00:22:49,785 --> 00:22:51,828

Like I can do other things.

404

00:22:51,828 --> 00:22:55,040

so I can be active in my community.

405

00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,877

I can be doing things

that will bring change to my community.

406

00:22:59,086 --> 00:23:02,214

I'm not engaging in the political system

407

00:23:02,214 --> 00:23:05,175

to bring change,

but I'm getting involved in.

408

00:23:05,217 --> 00:23:06,343

like a food bank.

409

00:23:06,343 --> 00:23:09,137

I'm getting involved in

in a fire department.

410

00:23:09,137 --> 00:23:11,223

I'm getting involved in,

411

00:23:11,223 --> 00:23:15,018

in things in the community where

I'm having an impact on the community,

412

00:23:15,018 --> 00:23:18,855

and I'm engaging with the homeless

community or whatever it is.

413

00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,234

so it's not like I'm.

414

00:23:22,234 --> 00:23:24,945

It's not like I'm a good person

doing nothing.

415

00:23:24,945 --> 00:23:26,154

I'm a good person doing things.

416

00:23:26,154 --> 00:23:28,323

But it's not it's

not the political things.

417

00:23:28,323 --> 00:23:31,326

And so it's not like,

well, it's either politics or nothing.

418

00:23:31,743 --> 00:23:35,455

It's like, yeah, good

people need to do something,

419

00:23:36,081 --> 00:23:38,625

but it doesn't have to be politics.

420

00:23:38,625 --> 00:23:42,504

There are other ways

to bring change to the to the world.

421

00:23:42,504 --> 00:23:45,507

And I think that the other things

422

00:23:45,799 --> 00:23:48,635

are actually probably more

423

00:23:48,635 --> 00:23:51,680

lasting, have more long term

lasting effects

424

00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,683

than, than politics.

425

00:23:55,559 --> 00:23:58,979

but if if we're not doing anything,

if we're not willing

426

00:23:58,979 --> 00:24:02,190

to expend our energies and

427

00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,570

perhaps even put our lives at risk

for the sake of the kingdom of God, then

428

00:24:06,570 --> 00:24:11,908

the accusation that we're just benefiting

from what other people are, are doing is,

429

00:24:12,951 --> 00:24:14,995

is justified.

430

00:24:14,995 --> 00:24:16,496

that's that's interesting.

431

00:24:16,496 --> 00:24:18,915

because, yeah,

I've definitely heard that too.

432

00:24:18,915 --> 00:24:21,376

I mean, different service members

and things, you know, like, well, hey,

433

00:24:21,376 --> 00:24:25,505

you guys are getting a free pass

from all our hard work of maintaining

434

00:24:25,505 --> 00:24:30,135

this, this system, of the,

country of America, essentially.

435

00:24:30,719 --> 00:24:33,305

the other thing we have to recognize,

though,

436

00:24:33,305 --> 00:24:36,308

is that,

437

00:24:37,058 --> 00:24:39,186

the practice of our faith

438

00:24:39,186 --> 00:24:42,606

and the wealth and the not the wealth,

but the

439

00:24:42,814 --> 00:24:45,817

the well-being

and the welfare of the church

440

00:24:46,067 --> 00:24:49,070

is not dependent

on a particular political system.

441

00:24:49,696 --> 00:24:51,573

That's an excellent point.

442

00:24:51,573 --> 00:24:54,576

so people say, well,

you know, the country is, you know,

443

00:24:55,202 --> 00:24:58,830

going, you know, into authoritarianism

444

00:24:58,830 --> 00:25:01,833

or into communism and,

you know, it's going to be really bad.

445

00:25:02,042 --> 00:25:03,168

Not necessarily.

446

00:25:03,168 --> 00:25:07,130

The church has prospered under

some pretty adverse political systems.

447

00:25:07,130 --> 00:25:12,552

And so we don't need to protect a certain.

448

00:25:12,552 --> 00:25:15,722

Form of government

or a certain system of government

449

00:25:15,722 --> 00:25:20,268

in order for the church

to be healthy and, and to to prosper.

450

00:25:20,268 --> 00:25:25,524

And so it's a bit of a fallacy to think

that we really have to fight for our,

451

00:25:25,607 --> 00:25:27,817

our political system,

and we really have to fight

452

00:25:27,817 --> 00:25:32,614

for our religious freedoms or the church

is going to be, you know, extinguished.

453

00:25:32,614 --> 00:25:35,825

No, it's not, it might actually be really

454

00:25:35,825 --> 00:25:38,912

healthy under

a, under an adverse political system.

455

00:25:40,205 --> 00:25:40,539

Yeah.

456

00:25:40,539 --> 00:25:41,206

That that's

457

00:25:41,206 --> 00:25:45,377

that is an excellent point that that could

very easily be a fallacy of like, well,

458

00:25:45,377 --> 00:25:49,631

if it wasn't for the strong military

of the United States today,

459

00:25:50,131 --> 00:25:53,134

the church here would not continue

as it is.

460

00:25:54,344 --> 00:25:55,428

But yeah, you're totally right.

461

00:25:55,428 --> 00:25:56,429

I mean, if you study history,

462

00:25:56,429 --> 00:25:59,808

the church does not need

a particular system to survive.

463

00:25:59,808 --> 00:26:03,937

I mean, the church thrived, you know,

under Roman persecution, for example,

464

00:26:03,937 --> 00:26:04,646

like the early church.

465

00:26:04,646 --> 00:26:07,649

I mean, that was, basically unlike any,

466

00:26:08,984 --> 00:26:11,861

persecution levels

that we've seen recently for the church.

467

00:26:11,861 --> 00:26:13,446

And, and it thrived, it grew.

468

00:26:13,446 --> 00:26:16,199

And I think that's pretty important.

469

00:26:16,199 --> 00:26:19,869

I think there's this fixation or obsession

with power

470

00:26:19,911 --> 00:26:23,832

going on here of like,

we have to do control of this.

471

00:26:24,666 --> 00:26:26,501

maybe it's the human desire of

472

00:26:27,586 --> 00:26:28,461

feeling in control of

473

00:26:28,461 --> 00:26:31,756

something and,

being afraid of the unknown.

474

00:26:31,756 --> 00:26:33,341

And maybe we'll lose this, that we have.

475

00:26:33,341 --> 00:26:34,843

I think you made a really good point

about.

476

00:26:34,843 --> 00:26:38,388

We've never lived in a place

this long without getting persecuted,

477

00:26:38,638 --> 00:26:40,223

the Anabaptist people.

478

00:26:40,223 --> 00:26:43,226

And so that's maybe making some shifts

in how we perceive

479

00:26:43,643 --> 00:26:46,730

what's important maintaining

the status quo, maintaining the

480

00:26:46,730 --> 00:26:51,234

the right power structures to keep us

from getting persecuted again, perhaps.

481

00:26:51,318 --> 00:26:52,944

I'm a bit rambling here.

482

00:26:52,944 --> 00:26:55,322

I'm not a historian, so, you know,

I don't want to say things

483

00:26:55,322 --> 00:26:57,949

that are incorrect, but,

it does feel like that.

484

00:26:57,949 --> 00:27:00,952

It's got to play into it. You know?

485

00:27:01,036 --> 00:27:04,164

so it's

very easy in conversations like this

486

00:27:04,164 --> 00:27:07,167

to focus on

all the things that we don't do.

487

00:27:07,167 --> 00:27:09,085

We don't vote,

we don't go to the military.

488

00:27:09,085 --> 00:27:10,754

We don't this we don't that.

489

00:27:10,754 --> 00:27:13,131

and I guess that's all fine and good.

490

00:27:13,131 --> 00:27:16,217

but Those that criticize our position.

491

00:27:16,635 --> 00:27:18,386

What is a legitimate response?

492

00:27:18,386 --> 00:27:21,640

So we can say, that we are,

493

00:27:23,099 --> 00:27:26,102

functional members

of society and contributing in other ways,

494

00:27:26,436 --> 00:27:30,357

just not in the ways of involvement in the

political system or the military system.

495

00:27:30,649 --> 00:27:32,609

Talk me through that.

496

00:27:32,609 --> 00:27:35,445

Well, part of it is,

497

00:27:35,445 --> 00:27:38,031

you know, the things that we

the positive things

498

00:27:38,031 --> 00:27:40,992

that we do, do and,

499

00:27:42,285 --> 00:27:46,039

just one in the whole area of abortion,

500

00:27:46,039 --> 00:27:50,502

like we do foster care and we do adoption

and we support,

501

00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,963

we do things to support

single mothers and,

502

00:27:54,547 --> 00:27:57,050

and families that are struggling.

503

00:27:57,050 --> 00:28:02,806

And so, we get involved

in, in those kinds of things and,

504

00:28:03,473 --> 00:28:07,227

In Sioux look out, where we live,

where the churches are operating,

505

00:28:07,227 --> 00:28:11,398

a food bank, and there are people that,

you know, they're housed,

506

00:28:11,398 --> 00:28:13,358

but they're really struggling.

507

00:28:13,358 --> 00:28:17,445

And if their lives

get much more dysfunctional,

508

00:28:17,445 --> 00:28:19,239

they will lose their housing.

509

00:28:19,239 --> 00:28:23,493

But providing food

is one way of helping them to be able to

510

00:28:23,493 --> 00:28:27,372

to at least stay housed

and stay functional as a family.

511

00:28:27,372 --> 00:28:30,834

And so we we do those kinds of things.

512

00:28:31,167 --> 00:28:33,253

so, there's things that

we do in our communities,

513

00:28:34,337 --> 00:28:37,090

but there's also things that we do

514

00:28:37,090 --> 00:28:41,886

internationally on a global more

with more of a global perspective.

515

00:28:41,886 --> 00:28:45,640

When you think of the migration of people

and refugees and,

516

00:28:46,266 --> 00:28:48,810

some of the crises around the world.

517

00:28:48,810 --> 00:28:53,940

we go there, we, we provide medical care.

518

00:28:53,940 --> 00:28:55,567

We provide.

519

00:28:55,567 --> 00:28:57,694

Help for people living in refugee camps.

520

00:28:57,694 --> 00:28:59,904

We. We.

521

00:28:59,904 --> 00:29:02,991

we get into situations

where there is poverty

522

00:29:02,991 --> 00:29:06,828

and we work to bring change and to,

to help to,

523

00:29:08,538 --> 00:29:10,165

for people to experience

524

00:29:10,165 --> 00:29:14,210

development

and to to get a vision of what, what they,

525

00:29:14,335 --> 00:29:17,255

what they can do and,

and how they can bring change

526

00:29:17,255 --> 00:29:18,882

into their lives, in their communities.

527

00:29:18,882 --> 00:29:20,717

And so

528

00:29:20,717 --> 00:29:23,887

we become very active because we just

529

00:29:24,637 --> 00:29:29,184

we know that,

the gospel is good news to the poor.

530

00:29:29,601 --> 00:29:33,938

And Jesus came to release the captive

and and, and,

531

00:29:34,397 --> 00:29:37,859

and and so it's we're doing those things,

532

00:29:38,151 --> 00:29:43,490

because we do believe

that changes can come into the world.

533

00:29:45,992 --> 00:29:46,868

so that's,

534

00:29:46,868 --> 00:29:50,330

I think, an important piece

where you're saying transformation

535

00:29:50,330 --> 00:29:53,625

and change, restoration

and so forth is very possible.

536

00:29:54,250 --> 00:29:58,254

The issue is fixating

on the wrong methods.

537

00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,883

Is that a way of saying it?

538

00:30:02,133 --> 00:30:04,219

again, the obsession with power,

539

00:30:04,219 --> 00:30:08,598

like that's the thing with politics

that always has bothered me is this push.

540

00:30:08,848 --> 00:30:12,310

We got to get our guys in power,

like get, get, get on top of this thing

541

00:30:12,310 --> 00:30:17,190

and, push our way and,

and it just feels so aggressive.

542

00:30:17,232 --> 00:30:21,069

And you look at what Jesus did

and it was not that he didn't go around

543

00:30:21,152 --> 00:30:22,111

trying to dominate.

544

00:30:22,111 --> 00:30:25,615

And get in power and get as big of

crowds around him as possible.

545

00:30:25,782 --> 00:30:28,868

There's multiple times of the New

Testament where he sends the crowds away,

546

00:30:29,410 --> 00:30:32,413

which is so counter intuitive,

547

00:30:32,831 --> 00:30:36,543

at least for us here in America, is like,

that's not really how we tend to think.

548

00:30:36,543 --> 00:30:37,961

It's like, how much influence can we get?

549

00:30:37,961 --> 00:30:41,756

How can we dominate this situation

and push for real change?

550

00:30:41,881 --> 00:30:47,637

and one of the problems is

when when politics courts the church,

551

00:30:48,888 --> 00:30:51,599

then the church

552

00:30:51,599 --> 00:30:52,016

acts.

553

00:30:52,016 --> 00:30:56,104

The church doesn't gain power,

it doesn't gain control.

554

00:30:56,563 --> 00:31:01,651

It becomes, it becomes a support group

for a political party.

555

00:31:01,651 --> 00:31:07,615

It becomes it becomes a,

an interest group for a political party.

556

00:31:07,615 --> 00:31:12,245

And a political party

will do just enough to make the church

557

00:31:12,245 --> 00:31:17,458

people think that they're going to do

what they what they what they want.

558

00:31:17,584 --> 00:31:21,754

And but it gets intermingled

with all the other interest groups

559

00:31:21,754 --> 00:31:24,924

that they have, the oil industry

and the pharmaceutical companies.

560

00:31:24,924 --> 00:31:26,217

And then there's the church.

561

00:31:26,217 --> 00:31:29,554

And and so it becomes it just becomes a

562

00:31:29,554 --> 00:31:33,016

group,

a support group for the political party.

563

00:31:33,016 --> 00:31:34,976

And it doesn't really gain.

564

00:31:34,976 --> 00:31:36,519

It doesn't really gain control.

565

00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:39,564

And a matter of fact, it kind of dilutes,

566

00:31:40,356 --> 00:31:42,901

I think, the power of the church

567

00:31:42,901 --> 00:31:48,114

in, in the community, because then

we become identified as, oh, you're

568

00:31:49,073 --> 00:31:50,783

yeah, you support that political party.

569

00:31:50,783 --> 00:31:54,203

So then there's a whole segment of people

that just kind of say, well,

570

00:31:54,829 --> 00:31:59,083

we'll we'll write you off then,

And when we're when our position

571

00:31:59,083 --> 00:32:03,546

is nonpolitical,

when it's not tied to a political party,

572

00:32:04,547 --> 00:32:07,675

then, it just is.

573

00:32:07,675 --> 00:32:12,639

It's just more powerful because you're not

being co-opted by a political party.

574

00:32:14,265 --> 00:32:16,976

one of my friends was,

he gave a lecture at,

575

00:32:16,976 --> 00:32:20,980

I think Ohio State University

and about anabaptism.

576

00:32:20,980 --> 00:32:23,983

And after he was finished

with his lecture,

577

00:32:24,859 --> 00:32:27,737

the professor said to him,

I don't think you people realize

578

00:32:27,737 --> 00:32:32,533

the power of your position,

and the power of your position is

579

00:32:33,451 --> 00:32:37,622

that you're not tied to a political system

or a political party,

580

00:32:37,622 --> 00:32:41,084

like you're operating

totally outside of that whole sphere.

581

00:32:41,793 --> 00:32:45,755

it's actually bringing change

through a whole different system.

582

00:32:46,381 --> 00:32:49,384

And it's that much more of a grassroots

583

00:32:49,926 --> 00:32:54,138

level where people's hearts

and lives are being changed and,

584

00:32:54,472 --> 00:32:58,726

and people's desires are being changed

and, and people's lives are being changed.

585

00:32:58,726 --> 00:33:02,814

And then that brings change to this.

586

00:33:02,897 --> 00:33:05,692

It changes society at large.

587

00:33:05,692 --> 00:33:10,029

But it seems at first

maybe more insignificant,

588

00:33:10,738 --> 00:33:13,658

and maybe it takes longer. But,

589

00:33:15,076 --> 00:33:17,453

but I think the changes are more long

term.

590

00:33:17,453 --> 00:33:22,750

I was going to say it, it does seem like

it takes longer, but but is more enduring

591

00:33:22,750 --> 00:33:26,838

or is lasting like it can using

the example of Jesus three years.

592

00:33:26,838 --> 00:33:29,382

At the end of it, he has 11 disciples,

593

00:33:29,382 --> 00:33:33,011

you know, and then it's quite

a number of years yet till the church

594

00:33:33,011 --> 00:33:36,014

gets to any substantial numbers

within the Roman Empire.

595

00:33:36,139 --> 00:33:39,142

but it was like this slow, almost like a,

596

00:33:39,642 --> 00:33:42,437

a patient, slow development.

597

00:33:42,437 --> 00:33:45,398

But it was so much more enduring

and it had so much more resilience to it.

598

00:33:45,982 --> 00:33:48,484

So as we think of all these things,

599

00:33:48,484 --> 00:33:51,988

we've hit a bunch of different,

angles to this conversation.

600

00:33:51,988 --> 00:33:54,866

I'm sure there's a lot more there's

lots of different opinions out there.

601

00:33:54,866 --> 00:33:57,493

but for those listening to this,

602

00:33:58,536 --> 00:34:00,496

what are ways they can get involved?

603

00:34:00,496 --> 00:34:04,917

What are some things they can do

now that do side with those longer,

604

00:34:05,209 --> 00:34:06,502

enduring changes?

605

00:34:06,502 --> 00:34:09,797

There's deeper impact in people's lives

and especially

606

00:34:10,339 --> 00:34:13,843

pulling back from whatever country

they're in as they listen to this

607

00:34:14,135 --> 00:34:16,971

and say, actually,

I want to focus on Jesus's kingdom

608

00:34:16,971 --> 00:34:20,892

and building that because that's something

so much bigger and last so much longer.

609

00:34:21,350 --> 00:34:22,518

How do they go about that?

610

00:34:22,518 --> 00:34:25,688

How are ways they can impact society

around them, their neighbors,

611

00:34:25,938 --> 00:34:26,606

their neighbors?

612

00:34:26,606 --> 00:34:29,150

Based on the things you've been sharing

here?

613

00:34:29,150 --> 00:34:29,400

Yeah.

614

00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,237

Well, I think it's,

first of all, the power of community

615

00:34:33,404 --> 00:34:36,407

and being connected to a community,

616

00:34:36,407 --> 00:34:39,410

to a community of faith, and

617

00:34:39,452 --> 00:34:44,665

and then that community of faith

becomes a platform for doing

618

00:34:44,665 --> 00:34:48,169

what needs to be done in the community

and learning to know our neighbors,

619

00:34:48,711 --> 00:34:51,714

just connecting with the people

620

00:34:52,131 --> 00:34:56,719

around us and, and knowing the five people

621

00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,473

who lived closest

to us and building relationships

622

00:35:01,432 --> 00:35:04,435

and the kingdom of God is

623

00:35:04,852 --> 00:35:10,274

is, it's it's working in the world,

but it's also invitational.

624

00:35:10,274 --> 00:35:11,692

You can be part of this.

625

00:35:11,692 --> 00:35:14,487

and as we build relationships, we impact

626

00:35:14,487 --> 00:35:17,490

society around us in, in positive ways.

627

00:35:17,532 --> 00:35:21,369

And it's invitational

in which you can be part of this.

628

00:35:21,369 --> 00:35:24,163

This is for you. And,

629

00:35:24,163 --> 00:35:27,041

and I think we get engaged in things

630

00:35:27,041 --> 00:35:30,044

that will,

631

00:35:30,211 --> 00:35:32,922

provide wealth, and provide health

632

00:35:32,922 --> 00:35:35,925

and well-being in our communities.

633

00:35:36,008 --> 00:35:39,011

And there's a whole concept of,

634

00:35:40,096 --> 00:35:43,391

well, the Hebrew concept of shalom,

which we often

635

00:35:43,391 --> 00:35:46,602

think of as peace, but actually

it's more comprehensive than that.

636

00:35:46,602 --> 00:35:51,023

It's like a whole concept of well-being,

like it's working for everyone.

637

00:35:51,607 --> 00:35:55,903

And and so we work

for that in our communities.

638

00:35:55,903 --> 00:35:58,906

And you can

639

00:35:58,948 --> 00:36:01,450

you can suppress violence

with greater violence.

640

00:36:01,450 --> 00:36:06,205

So whoever has the biggest gun can,

but you don't solve the problems.

641

00:36:06,205 --> 00:36:10,126

All you do is suppress violence

or you suppress dissent

642

00:36:10,334 --> 00:36:13,296

because you have more

you by the use of force.

643

00:36:13,296 --> 00:36:16,924

But when you step aside from the

from the use of force,

644

00:36:17,633 --> 00:36:21,345

then you can deal with

the issues and the problems,

645

00:36:22,638 --> 00:36:23,181

to where

646

00:36:23,181 --> 00:36:26,517

you really

bring well-being to the community

647

00:36:26,976 --> 00:36:30,646

and you work for a society

that really works well for everyone.

648

00:36:31,689 --> 00:36:33,983

And then then you don't need force.

649

00:36:33,983 --> 00:36:37,612

you don't need to use force to suppress

650

00:36:38,863 --> 00:36:40,907

bad behavior and,

651

00:36:40,907 --> 00:36:43,534

and violence because you're really working

for well-being.

652

00:36:43,534 --> 00:36:46,871

And so I think we work for the well-being

of everybody in the community. And,

653

00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,918

and do that through whatever avenues

but the community of faith,

654

00:36:51,918 --> 00:36:55,296

the church becomes the platform to

655

00:36:55,296 --> 00:36:58,758

to do that and not some nationalist

656

00:36:58,758 --> 00:37:01,969

system or, or something like that

or a political entity.

657

00:37:01,969 --> 00:37:04,972

It's it's, God's people working together

658

00:37:05,181 --> 00:37:08,184

for, for the betterment

of of the people around them.

659

00:37:08,226 --> 00:37:11,229

Yeah. yeah. Well, that's really good.

660

00:37:11,229 --> 00:37:16,108

I hope this episode is inspiring

to some people to not,

661

00:37:17,193 --> 00:37:19,779

you know,

not the typical bashing on nationalism,

662

00:37:19,779 --> 00:37:22,573

which is kind of easy to do and like,

oh, you know, politics.

663

00:37:22,573 --> 00:37:23,282

It's so. Yeah.

664

00:37:23,282 --> 00:37:27,286

And that's true

politics is kind of a mess and so forth.

665

00:37:27,286 --> 00:37:31,374

But actually they I'm hoping

will come away from hearing this and say,

666

00:37:31,540 --> 00:37:33,417

okay,

but how can I get to know my neighbors?

667

00:37:33,417 --> 00:37:35,336

How can I help the widow down the street?

668

00:37:35,336 --> 00:37:38,965

How can I better society in that way

and contribute in that way?

669

00:37:39,340 --> 00:37:43,219

especially again, we're

going into election here soon in America,

670

00:37:43,219 --> 00:37:47,848

and there's going to be a lot of time

spent, you know,

671

00:37:47,848 --> 00:37:53,145

watching the news or reading the articles

or talking about it and all this stuff.

672

00:37:53,145 --> 00:37:56,816

And what if we we turn all that

energy towards helping your neighbor?

673

00:37:57,024 --> 00:38:00,027

You know, it's really easy

to talk about how terrible things are,

674

00:38:00,027 --> 00:38:03,781

but actually going out and helping

someone is actually is hard sometimes.

675

00:38:05,366 --> 00:38:06,242

is there anything you'd like

676

00:38:06,242 --> 00:38:09,245

to say as we,

bring this episode to a close?

677

00:38:09,287 --> 00:38:12,123

Well, the first presidential election

that I remember

678

00:38:12,123 --> 00:38:15,126

in my lifetime was, 1960,

679

00:38:15,626 --> 00:38:18,629

when Richard Nixon

was running against John F Kennedy.

680

00:38:19,088 --> 00:38:22,091

And there was a lot of pressure

in Anabaptist communities.

681

00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,969

You must vote for Nixon.

682

00:38:24,969 --> 00:38:28,139

Like, if we have a Catholic president,

we're going to be under the pope.

683

00:38:28,306 --> 00:38:31,183

And, you know,

we're not going to have religious freedom,

684

00:38:31,183 --> 00:38:36,856

like we're going to have a state church

and we cannot have Kennedy as president.

685

00:38:37,189 --> 00:38:40,359

And, well, Kennedy

686

00:38:40,359 --> 00:38:43,988

won the election,

and we still have religious freedom.

687

00:38:44,238 --> 00:38:47,241

And Nixon didn't turn out to be

688

00:38:47,283 --> 00:38:50,411

a very reputable person

in the long term, either.

689

00:38:50,995 --> 00:38:54,915

And it's just a reminder

that things aren't always as they appear

690

00:38:54,915 --> 00:38:56,167

in the moment.

691

00:38:56,167 --> 00:39:01,756

And I think in almost every

election in my lifetime,

692

00:39:02,757 --> 00:39:05,718

people have said

this is the most important election ever.

693

00:39:05,718 --> 00:39:08,721

If you don't vote this time, like,

this is everything,

694

00:39:08,804 --> 00:39:10,264

you know,

we're just going to lose our freedom.

695

00:39:10,264 --> 00:39:11,557

Everything's going to be lost.

696

00:39:11,557 --> 00:39:14,727

And people on both sides

of the political spectrum Yeah.

697

00:39:14,727 --> 00:39:15,478

That's interesting.

698

00:39:15,478 --> 00:39:18,564

Now that you say that, I'm

thinking back to all elections

699

00:39:18,564 --> 00:39:21,233

that I've lived through,

it seems that always comes out somewhere.

700

00:39:21,233 --> 00:39:25,029

And Oh, this most important election

of our lifetimes, every, every time, it's

701

00:39:25,154 --> 00:39:25,488

Yeah.

702

00:39:25,488 --> 00:39:28,491

But when you think back 20 or 30 years,

703

00:39:29,658 --> 00:39:32,703

the person who won didn't

I mean, it didn't

704

00:39:32,703 --> 00:39:36,624

turn out to be a disaster

that the other side predicted.

705

00:39:36,624 --> 00:39:41,879

So I just think we overrate

the importance of politics

706

00:39:42,421 --> 00:39:45,758

and we underrate the

power of the kingdom of God.

707

00:39:47,593 --> 00:39:50,554

I think that's a excellent point

to end it on.

708

00:39:50,554 --> 00:39:56,143

And with that encouragement of pour

into God's kingdom, build his kingdom,

709

00:39:56,143 --> 00:39:59,772

and focus on, Focus on that

and serve your neighbors.

710

00:40:00,064 --> 00:40:01,649

You love your enemies. Yeah.

711

00:40:01,649 --> 00:40:03,067

Thanks so much for sharing.

712

00:40:03,067 --> 00:40:04,151

I appreciate you coming on.

713

00:40:04,151 --> 00:40:05,319

Your Welcome, Yeah.

714

00:40:06,237 --> 00:40:09,448

Thanks for listening to this episode

with Merle Burkholder.

715

00:40:09,907 --> 00:40:11,283

If you found this topic interesting,

716

00:40:11,283 --> 00:40:15,538

we actually produced an entire audiobook

on this topic by David Bercot.

717

00:40:15,579 --> 00:40:19,625

It's called In God We Don't Trust,

and you can find it linked down below.

718

00:40:19,834 --> 00:40:22,753

You can get it anywhere

you get your audio books.

719

00:40:22,753 --> 00:40:25,381

Thanks again for listening,

and we'll catch you in the next

720

00:40:25,381 --> 00:40:26,173

episode.

721

00:48:58,602 --> 00:49:01,980

politics is fueled by fear and rage.

722

00:49:02,105 --> 00:49:05,442

And so if you can, if people are either

afraid or they're angry,

723

00:49:05,943 --> 00:49:08,946

they'll turn out

to vote. And so politicians

724

00:49:10,238 --> 00:49:12,366

fuel fear and

725

00:49:12,366 --> 00:49:16,203

rage in order to,

to motivate people to go to the polls.

726

00:49:16,370 --> 00:49:19,581

and there are things

that should make us angry.

727

00:49:19,581 --> 00:49:22,584

There are things

that should make us concerned.

728

00:49:22,584 --> 00:49:24,753

But what we do about that

729

00:49:24,753 --> 00:49:30,092

is, is where the difference comes in

for us as as followers of Christ.

730

00:49:30,092 --> 00:49:33,095

And so then

731

00:49:38,725 --> 00:49:39,267

the problem

732

00:49:39,267 --> 00:49:42,354

with nationalism

is it's such a small idea.

733

00:49:42,354 --> 00:49:45,440

It's just one,

one little geographical region,

734

00:49:46,108 --> 00:49:50,070

and the rest of the world is kind of well,

it's it's it's not even thought about.

735

00:49:50,070 --> 00:49:53,073

And it's just like,

well, we're really going to do something

736

00:49:53,073 --> 00:49:54,241

right here in this country.

737

00:49:54,241 --> 00:49:56,618

But but what about the rest of the world?

738

00:49:56,618 --> 00:50:00,789

And the kingdom of God

is just this global thing that removes

739

00:50:01,331 --> 00:50:05,127

all the barriers

and all of the distinctions that

740

00:50:06,253 --> 00:50:07,838

people make.

741

00:50:07,838 --> 00:50:10,841

And, and so it's it's a much bigger,

grander

742

00:50:10,966 --> 00:50:14,678

idea and concept than, than nationalism.

743

01:01:08,790 --> 01:01:11,250

there would be very much

would be interest there now.

744

01:01:11,250 --> 01:01:14,462

So one thing it just because

we have interest in it, we love to do it.

745

01:01:15,171 --> 01:01:17,048

because we've actually talked to about it

a little bit.

746

01:01:17,048 --> 01:01:19,258

Just because you can see

the chatter doing,

747

01:01:19,258 --> 01:01:22,428

it doesn't mean necessarily

that we won't write time.

748

01:01:22,428 --> 01:01:23,680

Sure. It takes effort.

749

01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:25,598

It just doesn't work right.

750

01:01:25,598 --> 01:01:27,475

For the last conversation.

751

01:01:27,475 --> 01:01:28,476

Right? Good.

752

01:01:28,476 --> 01:01:29,894

Going back to overload.

753

01:01:29,894 --> 01:01:35,316

Yeah, we're already way ridiculously,

disappointingly, embarrassingly so.

754

01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:39,737

behind on schedule with the Frank

Reed project in collaboration with SBI.

755

01:01:39,737 --> 01:01:42,782

We're about a year into that, and

we still haven't released anything yet.

756

01:01:42,990 --> 01:01:44,075

Embarrassingly. Very.

757

01:01:44,075 --> 01:01:44,492

Yeah, but

758

01:01:44,492 --> 01:01:45,535

but my excuse is

759

01:01:45,535 --> 01:01:48,538

we just we're hiring two full time people

and that takes a lot of work.

760

01:01:48,579 --> 01:01:51,124

And but those are just excuses.

761

01:01:51,124 --> 01:01:55,962

We need to start delivering on them on on

some and some of our commitments.

762

01:01:56,462 --> 01:01:58,589

But I'm sorry.

763

01:01:58,589 --> 01:02:01,300

And even if you couldn't do it,

if you could help us figure out how to

764

01:02:02,927 --> 01:02:03,469

how to get it

765

01:02:03,469 --> 01:02:06,472

done, that would might be helpful.

766

01:02:06,723 --> 01:02:10,017

Will it take you back to your board

and say there's interest on our end?

767

01:02:10,017 --> 01:02:10,893

I think I can say