Zakiya N. Jamal and Laura Yamin

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Welcome to What to Read Next podcast. Today's guest, Zakiya N Jamal. And today we'll talk about her two debut novels. She debuted earlier this year, A Ya Romcom If we were a movie. This is s romance Set on Long Island. It's just like fun place to just land. If you're looking for common of age stories and first loves, this is a book to read.

If you're looking for an adult romance, a little bit more spicy, then you wanna go to Sparks Fly, which comes out next month, and it's just like a fun trope that takes a virgin trope and late bloomer into going to a sex club to looking for her first partner. I love this book so, so much.

So I really hope you enjoy this. Make sure to pre-order. In this interview, Zakiya talks about her writing process. We talk about book packages and how that it actually comes about when it comes to writing we talk about her book recommendations. She got some great recommendations for you to pick up.

So yeah, and oh, if you love K dramas, we talk about tele novellas and Turkish novellas. So everything in between. So I hope you enjoyed this [00:01:00] episode.

Laura Yamin: Hi Zia, welcome to What's your Next podcast.

Zakiya Jamal: Hi. Nice to be here.

Laura Yamin: So excited to have you here. So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Zakiya Jamal: Yeah. So, hi. I am Zakiya. I am an author. \, My first novel if we were a movie, which is a y novel, came out in April and my adult debut, sparks Fly, comes out in December.

Laura Yamin: Oh my gosh. Oh, so we gotta talk about this idea of like releasing two adult debuts in the same year. Different genres, different groups, but it's still like, how did it happen? Like, that's the first things, first,

Zakiya Jamal: so if we were a movie was a young adult novel, so that was, I worked on it with what's called a book packager.

Laura Yamin: Yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: essentially what that is they kind of have like the idea for the book and then they hire someone in this case, me to write the book. So that was kind of happening, but then at the same time. I was writing my own stuff. So like kind of in the middle of me writing, if we were a movie I got an agent and she really [00:02:00] liked what I had for what eventually would become Sparks Fly At the time. It was something totally different. So she was like, let's work on that. So we worked on that together and if we were a movie sold first and then Sparks Wise sold. I wanna say like a few months later, maybe six months later. And I think originally if we were a movie, it was actually supposed to come out fall of last year, but it ended up coming out this year. And then obviously Sparks Fly is coming out fall of this year. So it just ended up that they were in the same year.

Laura Yamin: That's exciting. Okay, we gotta talk about book packages and I get, I have so many questions because I grew up in a healthy dosage of Babysitters Club, sweet Valley High end, and id, so it is our lower year, 2020 something, and this is our version of those books in some ways where we get authors to actually write the story of packet, like put it together.

So.

Zakiya Jamal: Mm-hmm.

Laura Yamin: a lot of questions about it, like it's fascinating. So I wanna hear from your experience what it's like. Explain a little bit more about the process.

Zakiya Jamal: Mm-hmm.

Laura Yamin: our listeners may not be familiar with [00:03:00] it, but it is part of, it's actually like a thriving area

Zakiya Jamal: Yeah.

Laura Yamin: publishing industry.

Zakiya Jamal: So, so basically for me, my journey was, I had a friend of mine, a former coworker who was working at this book, packager. And she reached out to me 'cause she knew I like, had gone to grad school for writing and she knew I was trying to write a book. And so she was like, would you be interested in writing something for us? And I was like, sure, why not? Like I hadn't had an agent yet. I hadn't started, any of that process yet. So I was maybe this is, my step to getting published. So I had to basically audition which was submitting a writing sample to them of just something that I had been working on. And then from there they're like, okay, this is great. These are some book ideas that we have. Do any of these sound like something you can write? And so the first couple they sent I was eh, like I think maybe I could do it, but it's not really something I'm like excited about. And so then they gave me what would eventually become if we were a movie. I think we [00:04:00] originally had it titled like, would you like Popcorn with that? Something like that, of that nature. And so they basically provided me with like an app line of what the book would be, so like a general kind of plot summary, some characters.

But then, they're kind of

Laura Yamin: Okay.

Zakiya Jamal: Make it your own basically. So originally when they first presented it to me, it was actually a straight romance. So it was between a girl and a boy. And I was like, no, I think it should be gay. So I was like, I think we should make it sapphic. I think she would have a girlfriend. And they were totally down with that. So that was kind of the first big change that I made to it. And then I kind of just, made it my own, like I grew up on Long Island, so I said it on Long Island. On Long Island and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, so I basically worked with them to write like the first third of the book.

Like I would write 25 pages. They would edit them back and forth until we felt good about it. And then the packager works with an agency, and so the agency then took the book out. A proposal. So [00:05:00] basically the first third of the book that I wrote along with like, what the rest of the book would be. And they took it out to publishers and they sold it that way. And then once it's sold, the process is kind of the same as anybody else in publishing from there. But yeah, so that was kind of the short version, I guess.

Laura Yamin: That is a great, that is so interesting. As someone who's like, I'm so grateful for this podcast. As I've talked to ghost writers, I've talked to. Know people who have done all different types of things in the book industry. And this is one of those things where we don't know that information and we make assumptions, but the reality is like, it's fascinating, especially as a like.

As a someone who wants to dip into the toes of writing, this is a great way to get, get an idea of what it looks like. Get some guidance, if you're not sure. And I think it's, in some ways it's like, I love the fact it's an upgraded, goes through like quote unquote, go like a side line.

So like what it used to be with Make it traffic, make it like, make it set in Long Island and set it your place so the author actually has some more flexible, like, more [00:06:00] autonomy then. Just hand it down an outline and write it down.

Zakiya Jamal: Yeah,

Laura Yamin: what it used to be like, back in the nineties.

So I love this. And I think in some ways it's giving you like new authors opportunity to write, and provide their voices and so, yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: Yeah.

Laura Yamin: Awesome. All right, so let's talk about your ideal debut, which is very exciting because you tear, you turn the virgin trope upside down, you set it up to a sex club.

And so it's like, oh my gosh. She's not like the pure, like, oh my gosh, I don't know anything. It's like she has autonomy.

Zakiya Jamal: Mm-hmm.

Laura Yamin: sex positive, which is very exciting. So talk to us about like the process of like coming up with this I, this story and how to convey it in this year work. We're moving towards very Christian nationalism and all those tropes of traditional, whatever, traditional crap that they wanna say.

But it turned into like, it's not just, virginity is just part of it. It is just not something that you need [00:07:00] to, you can be sex positive too.

Zakiya Jamal: Yeah. For me, I read a lot of romance. It's like pretty much all I

Laura Yamin: Yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: of the time.

Laura Yamin: Yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: and so I think the virgin trope is a very popular trope, and it's typically the woman who's a virgin and it's usually like a male female relationship. And it's like, she's so innocent, she's so pure. She's never even had an orgasm before.

And then this guy who's like. Sleeping around and has like, he's like a player, but like he finds her and now he's like ready to settle down with like this one lady and like. Teacher about sex, basically.

Laura Yamin: Yes.

Zakiya Jamal: and I am a late bloomer myself, and I was like, and I know a lot of late bloomers, like a lot of my friends are late bloomers. And I was like, we talk about sex. Like we may not be having sex, but we talk

Laura Yamin: Yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: And it's not like this taboo thing for us. Like, we're not like, oh my God we can't talk about that. That's not, like, it's just that, it's like. [00:08:00] People are late bloomers for a number of reasons.

Like sometimes it is tied to religion, but a lot of times it's just like you haven't met the right person. It's not like

Laura Yamin: And

Zakiya Jamal: to you, it might be some, it could be a number of reasons.

Laura Yamin: yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: so I wanted to write a late bloomer who, knows what she wants and knows what she's looking for and like, has had an orgasm before. And it just hasn't happened with a person. And so going into that, I kind of, that was always like part of the plot. Like the book has changed over time, but that general idea has always been the foundation of the story for me. And then it kind of built from there. Like I was trying to figure out who. be the person that she would be like, okay,

I will lose my virginity to this person. So I kind of built Max her love interests from there. But yeah, so that's kind of where it stemmed from.

Laura Yamin: I love idea, like think about late bloomer. It's not just religion. A lot of times it's just a dating scene before 2025. It is not the same. [00:09:00] It is not the same. I'm in my forties, so I've seen it all. This is not sex in the city. This is not like you go in a bar and talk to someone. Social interactions were difference.

Were limited. It is just like, and so even just having sex, it's like, yeah, like you don't wanna do, like, it's sometimes like you wanna get it over with, or you just wanna just, find the right person. And so you kind of have to deal with like a lot of people, they're not so good, so I love this idea of like having her having autonomy and having an, like, having an orgasm and like not feeling like ashamed around it.

For that space. Like, you know that there's nothing, it's just, it's a late bloomer and it's a very, taking that trope that, you don't need to have the magic pain to do, give you an orgasm right away

Zakiya Jamal: exactly.

Laura Yamin: for the first time. The awakening, like you can also have that awakening too.

Zakiya Jamal: Mm-hmm. Yeah,

Laura Yamin: So

Zakiya Jamal: exactly.

Laura Yamin: awesome. All right, so did you plot it out or did you pan it?

Because I know you had an outline for the first book for the, but [00:10:00] I'm assuming you have other books written in the back. Are you like, were you a plotter or Cancer?

Zakiya Jamal: Yeah, so I am. Typically a pants, So when I first started writing what would become Sparks fly, I was just pantsing it. Like I didn't have a plot line or anything like that. I was just had a general idea. I was writing it. But with my agent because she had, come to me actually, like she slid into my dms.

It was, and was like, Hey, are you writing anything? And so at the time I hadn't finished what would eventually be Sparks life. So she had me write out like a plot summary or a plot outline of like what I thought the book would be, which was very hard for me because I do not do that. So that was kind of the first time I really did that.

But. So now I kind of do like, especially now that I'm like under contract, I have to like write what my book is gonna be about. Otherwise they're like, we're not gonna let you write that. So I've become more of a plotter, but originally I was definitely [00:11:00] more of a panther. And I still, like, my plots are very much just like a suggestion.

Like I, I go off my plot almost all the time, like it's never, it usually doesn't stick.

Laura Yamin: So what does it feel like now that you're under contract, which is a little bit different 'cause you have deadlines, you're accountable to other people. Well, the writing process in the back, and maybe you went to grad school for writing. So you probably have a similar perspective, but. How does it feel like now being on the other side under contract?

Like, is it much more stressful or is it more like, or is that helps you kind of like just set the focus and like, this is what I gotta do,

Zakiya Jamal: it helps me for sure. Like I love a deadline which I'm sure other authors are like, are you okay?

Laura Yamin: Yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: no. Like I genuinely, I like. Knowing that I'm working towards

Laura Yamin: Mm-hmm.

Zakiya Jamal: like if I'm just like, I just wanna write a book or whatever, like, I'll be like, well, I have time. Like I can do something else.

Like, I can, like, it's easier for me to procrastinate, whereas like when I have a deadline, it's like, okay, we have to like lock in. Like, because we actually, like, we need to, like, people are [00:12:00] looking for this book. Like it's a real thing. Versus like, if it's just me, like, I'm like, well, I'm only accountable to me and like me don't care.

So, yeah, so definitely I like the structure of being on deadline. I'm sure like I'm still very early in it, so this is like really my first time being on Deadline because if we were a movie and Sparks Fly kind of happened at the same time, I didn't really have that experience. So now as I'm writing my next book is the first time I really like feeling it. So my feelings might change. But for right now, I like it so.

Laura Yamin: And then what's your favorite part? Is it drafting? Plotting, or editing?

Zakiya Jamal: Definitely editing. I'm drafting right now and I hate it.

Laura Yamin: yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: I'm very, I'm looking forward to being done with this first draft. I'm like. Inching towards the finish line. I very much enjoy revising more. Like, I like being able to go back into a draft and like knowing what I need to fix. Like right now, drafting for me just feels like I'm throwing spaghetti at the wall.

Like even with a plot outline, I'm like, none of this makes sense. So I love being [00:13:00] revising 'cause it's like now I have something that I can work

Laura Yamin: Yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: I know how to fix it. Yeah.

Laura Yamin: Yeah, I love this. And so what's your favorite self-care activity to keep you sane during all this time? I've been asking, actually, I used to ask this question in 2020, and I feel like I need to bring it back in 2025 because we're still in hell.

Zakiya Jamal: Yes. No, very much so. I feel like it's worse.

Laura Yamin: it's, I mean, really is, I think there's an alternate timeline that we just, that happened that we're just.

Zakiya Jamal: We were in the bad timeline. We're in the bad place for sure.

Laura Yamin: Yeah. So what saying it's so,

Zakiya Jamal: I think for me it's really watching tv. I'm a huge fan of KDRs, which I slip into the book. I slip into all my books at this point.

Laura Yamin: Yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: I have two.

Laura Yamin: Yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: I love KDRs. I feel like I can just. They're, the episodes are so long and like I'm the type of person that I'm like, I'm not getting up until I finish the episode. So it forces me to like lock in for like an hour.

Laura Yamin: Yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: [00:14:00] And it's also just it's so. Separate from like American culture, that is a very nice way for me to like step outside of what's going on here.

Like, ugh, a whole nother country. They speak in a different language. It's like, it's nice over there. And so yes, I love k dramas. And then also just like sitcoms, like I, I'm currently rewatching friends again for like the bajillion time. I love new girl living single like. All those, how I met your mother, all those shows that is just like 30 minutes of like nonsense.

Laura Yamin: Yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: I love those. So yeah, really like tv. 'cause I also work in publishing, so I just like, unfortunately reading has been too tied up in both of my jobs.

Laura Yamin: Yeah,

Zakiya Jamal: watching TV is like a nice little break for my brain.

Laura Yamin: I love this. All right, so I suggest you watch Turkish dramas. I'm a Turkish girl. So I love Turkish. They're all in Netflix and stuff like that. They're great. They're just like enough that we have a recap show. But [00:15:00] it's kind of like the same escape of it. You're like, in this beautiful setting, you're like finding these people, like trying to figure out what's going on.

Like high drama and like, but then again, I grew up in a healthy dose of, I grew up in Puerto Rico, so most of my childhood was ELAs from Mexico.

Zakiya Jamal: that's exactly okay. So I too, because I'm Cuban my, my grandma loved tele novellas.

Laura Yamin: Yes.

Zakiya Jamal: the little novella books as

Laura Yamin: Yep.

Zakiya Jamal: she get for like a dollar at the bodega. Anyway.

Laura Yamin: Yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: I literally, like when I talk about watching K dramas, I'll be like, oh, yeah. Like, I just have to watch my stories.

Laura Yamin: Yes. It's like the same vibe.

Zakiya Jamal: the same thing.

Laura Yamin: grew up, I have another author from your publisher, she's from Venezuela. And I was like, I told the publicist, I was like, I grew up watching Ion, like all the, for the eighties and nineties were Venezuela or Mexico. Like it didn't, there was no InBetween.

You just do, and now they're actually in Latin America. They exporting Turkish dramas since my mom got into it. And now we're just [00:16:00] watching, but it's like, it's just like a nice little escape from other worlds and like the drama and just. Specific things and you just, and some of you have subtitles, you actually have to like look and listen and

Zakiya Jamal: You have to lock in. Like you can't be

Laura Yamin: Yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: your phone. You have to like actually watch, which is I think is perfect.

Laura Yamin: yes. It's a great mindful activity. So, okay, so let's talk some book revelations. What kind of books do you tend to recommend or listeners who pick up?

Zakiya Jamal: I mean, like I said, I read mostly romance. I feel like that's what I am often recommending. So. Yeah, I mean mainly romance, but I also, because I do so much romance and I also work on a lot of romance novels, I am also trying to like read outside romance. So like right now I'm listening to the Scammer by Tiffany D.

Jackson which is like set at this like fictional HBCU that's very similar to Howard University. And basically this group of girls, it's like four of them, they are like suitemates and one of the girl's, brother like moves in [00:17:00] with them and he's like a very sketchy dude. And so I'm only at the beginning, but I'm already like, red flags.

Red flags. So I'm very scared for the girlies. I don't know what this man is about to do to them, but I'm very frightened. But yeah, so every so often I will try to dip out of romance. I can just. Read something different. So that's what I'm doing right now. But like I also just read Mate by Ali Hazelwood, which I absolutely loved. I am very new to the like werewolf romance genre. But anything Ali Hazelwood writes, I will read. So.

Laura Yamin: Yes. I love these recommendations and you gotta tell me if someone dies in discounter. 'cause that's actually my fear.

Zakiya Jamal: No, I, yeah I'm like bracing myself as I

Laura Yamin: Yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: this is gonna go so bad.

Laura Yamin: Yeah, it's,

Zakiya Jamal: gonna go way left.

Laura Yamin: it is.

Zakiya Jamal: so I'm like, I'm already like, oh boy.

Laura Yamin: Yeah.

Zakiya Jamal: very early on in it, so who knows what's gonna happen.

Laura Yamin: Yeah, because like I love a good scamming story, but I like the white collar crime, not the murder kind. [00:18:00] Although I do love cozy mysteries, but I feel like cozy is, yes, there's a murder, but it's like, not the person you care about and stuff like that, but it's a weird thing,

Zakiya Jamal: yeah.

Laura Yamin: So Zia tells where you're finding online.

Zakiya Jamal: Oh yeah. So you can find me pretty much on all the social platforms at Zakia and like Nancy Jamal. So it's just my name. And I have the same username all the places. So.

Laura Yamin: Awesome. Thank you so much for being in the shower.

Zakiya Jamal: Yeah, of course for having me.

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