PART 2

[00:00:00] Ross Mc: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season five, episode 20 of People's Soup. It's Ross McIntosh here,

[00:00:07] Ross White: I see the flexible mind approach as, a helpful and beneficial approach in its own right, which I'm really excited to work with other organizations and practitioners around. And I also see it as a vehicle, a vehicle, to really enhance awareness around the importance of balancing those opportunities to develop performance and sustain wellbeing.

[00:00:36] Ross White: So a more sustainable approach to high performance, living. yeah, I'm, I'm hopeful that, uh, in addition to the flexible minded approach itself, the book and the work that we're involved in also serves to really enhance understanding about ways of finding that balance. Pea soupers. Today I continue my chat with Professor Ross White. Ross is the research Director of the Doctorate and Clinical Psychology Program at Queens University Belfast.

[00:01:08] Ross Mc: As well as being an expert in global mental health. He's also an author and was the lead on a book called Acceptance and Commitment Approaches for Athletes Wellbeing and Performance, the Flexible Mind. and that will be our focus for today.

[00:01:22] Ross Mc: So in this episode, we dive into the book. Starting with my review and then continuing with an exploration of the collaborative development of the key messages. We talk about his hopes for the book and what else he's got in the pipeline. We finish with Ross's takeaways, which are beautifully expressed and very useful. You'll find all the links you need in the show notes, and that includes the session guides to accompany the book and how to sign up for Ross's Monthly five to Thrive.

[00:01:49] Ross Mc: Newsletter, which is an essential rate. [00:02:00] People Super is in award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to help you Glo to work a bit more often.

[00:02:13] Ross Mc: Let's just scoot over to the news task because reviews are in for part one of my chat with Ross. A keen listener got in touch to send me a message on Facebook. They said. I listened to your fab chat with Ross White on the plane coming home and just loved it. how does he do all that?

[00:02:28] Ross Mc: He's amazing. I subscribed to his Five to Thrive newsletter and it's so interesting and helpful. He definitely has quite the sexy speaking voice too, but best not put that in the review. Oh, sorry. Aan, who continued to say, can't wait for the second episode.

[00:02:47] Ross Mc: Well, thank you so much to that listener and to everyone who listened, shared Rated, spoke about this episode with a friend. We rely on you talking about and sharing this podcast to help us reach more people with stuff that could be useful. People. Supers are true labor of love, so anything you can do to spread the word is much appreciated.

[00:03:07] Ross Mc: You might help someone else get insights to help them glow to work.

[00:03:11] Ross Mc: But for now, get a brew on and have a listen to part two of my chat with Ross White.

[00:03:18] Ross Mc: I really want to dive into your work with, Athletes And your book, acceptance and Commitment Approaches for Athletes Wellbeing and Performance, the Flexible Mind. We've talked in part one about your motivation for this in our intersection between psychology and your interest in sports. But I thought what I might do is just start with a little review of the book, if I may.

[00:03:45] Ross Mc: So let me, read out what I, my notes here.

[00:03:48] Ross Mc: The flexible mind approach was created by world-leading experts in psychology and sports science, and it truly meets the sports person where they are. for me, it really makes the behavioral science [00:04:00] accessible, practical, and useful. Adopting that incremental growth approach to support the athletes in developing new perspectives and habits.

[00:04:11] Ross Mc: And it emphasizes the stance for those delivering the flexible mind approach to be one of living the approach, one of flexibility. Responsivity and authenticity where the trainer or the coach is led by the client and their context. So I think it's a superbly crafted piece of work. So thank you to you and your co-authors.

[00:04:33] Ross Mc: I love the pod approach and the emphasis on workability. And for the listeners, the pod approach is being the P is being present, the O is being open, and the D is doing what matters. So hats off to you all. I'm so glad this book is out there. And for the listeners as well as the book, there are, hang on a sec.

[00:04:54] Ross White: Session guides

[00:04:56] Ross Mc: That's the, that's the word I was looking for as well as the book. Thank you, Ross. There are free session guides to support people in introducing the flexible mind approach to athletes, so that's really generous of you as the authors and the publishers to, to do that and to make it accessible because I think that does give a really nice introduction and framework to the stages of the approach and how we can best support athletes using behavioral science.

[00:05:22] Ross Mc: So I'm just super glad it's out there and I really wanted to dive into it with you.

[00:05:27] Ross White: Well, thank you for the warm words. It's always interesting to see how this lands for, for people and, um, yeah. It, it's been great to get it out there and, um, The book is published by Palgrave, and it's part of what's called the Springer Link, collection. So if you're part of an academic institution or an organization that holds that institutional license for, Springer Link, you can download the PDF of the book [00:06:00] for free.

[00:06:00] Ross White: but because it's an educational publisher, it does mean that whenever you're then trying to buy the book as a member of the public, it's a little expensive. And, to help address that issue, we set up the Flexible Mind web pH. www.flexiblemind.co uk where people can go and access those seven session guides that, as you say, are free to download.

[00:06:30] Ross White: There's audio files of some of the exercises and strategies that, feature and the book that people can use and have access to. So we were very keen to make sure that people could access it and could use it. It's there to be used and we wanted to ensure that there weren't barriers or blocks.

[00:06:53] Ross White: And that's part of the, the Act way. Right. You know, the Association of Contextual Behavioral Science is a great community of practitioners and I've benefited enormously from people's willingness to share their work. So it's just passing that forward.

[00:07:11] Ross Mc: And how did you conceptualize the, the approach in the book? Because as I said in my review, I really think you meet the athletes where they are. You, you really perceptually put yourselves in their position and then maybe their skepticism, the what's in it for me. I think you really do address that in the way it's written and structured.

[00:07:30] Ross White: we are lucky to have a real mix in the authors. You have a couple of clinical psychologists, sports scientists, and a couple of sports psychologists. So drawing on our experience, our work,

[00:07:47] the package - team effort - evidence

[00:07:47] Ross White: we were able to try to put together a package that we felt would really speak to that market and, um, both in terms of athletes.

[00:07:58] Ross White: and having [00:08:00] a range of different athletes feature in some of the case studies that feature in the book. And also the practitioners having recognition that this could be a resource that's useful for sports psychologists, mental health practitioners, coaches to use, to support the athletes. so just being flexible and how we envisaged this work on flexibility, playing out with athletes.

[00:08:27] Ross White: so yeah, it was, very much a team effort. There was a lot of thought put into how, the book was packaged and put together. We also wanted to really give a, a nod to the evidence base behind acceptance based approaches in the context of sports. So, uh, I think the second chapter in particular is quite focused on some of that science that sits behind the approach as well.

[00:08:54] Ross Mc: I think it's important to have a chapter like that available. There'll be some people who might be more skeptical and the evidence might be the, the kind of tipping point for them that, okay, I can now fully engage with this. I think some people will just naturally go bring it on.

[00:09:09] Ross Mc: I don't need chapter two, but some people need that sort of reassurance and to really understand the sort of reputation or the pedigree of what we're doing.

[00:09:19] Ross White: Yeah, and it's also a call for further research as well. so it's going to be important moving forward to evaluate the flexible mind approach more and, um, to do other work, really to ensure that we're developing it further and being responsive to some of the, the feedback that we get in relation to it as well.

[00:09:41] Ross Mc: Now. You talked about the mixed perspectives of the, you and the co-authors. How did, how did you assemble these authors? Were these within your existing network or was it.

[00:09:51] Ross White: Yeah, Andy Bethell and I had, worked together at the University of Liverpool. I was fortunate to supervise [00:10:00] Andy's doctoral research, which was looking at psychological flexibility in the context of, football. and, uh, his project, was great to be involved in. And many of the ideas that, came into the book, were through conversations with Andy.

[00:10:18] Ross White: I had also been involved in supervising Stephen Leckey's PhD research, which was looking at, um, psychological flexibility in elite level rugby. And, Victoria Penpraze was a co-supervisor on that project and her expertise in sports science. The conversations that we had as a group, really were, were fundamental as well to the book.

[00:10:45] Ross White: And Lewis Charnock sports psychologist working at Everton Football Club. So again, I was fortunate to have connection with Luis during that time and, like-minded people with different perspectives coming together. We worked really well as a team and all have fun memories of some of those writing camps where we were all together.

[00:11:08] Ross White: And, um, Steven and Vicky were kind enough to journey down from Scotland to be in Liverpool with us for those. So, um, yeah, it, it was through some of those professional connections and involvement in, projects that we were doing together.

[00:11:23] Ross Mc: And, and how's it landed with the sports communities.

[00:11:27] Ross White: Yeah, it's been great to do workshops where I share about, the training of the approach and, to see the response in terms of the questions that people have, the follow ups afterwards. So there's interest, for example, from national football associations here came to use this with the international squads that they're working with.

[00:11:53] Ross White: So I'm looking forward to developing those ideas a bit further. And most recently [00:12:00] I am working to develop a group best version of the flexible mind approach. And, that would be, Four session approach, group work, but then combined with some individual sessions at the end of the group so that this can be really tailored to the, athlete's individual values so that we have, um, more of a hybrid sort of mixed approach where there's group work followed up with one-to-one session so that we can plan for how things are gonna move forward.

[00:12:32] Ross White: so yeah, really interested and curious to see how it lands and very, uh, interested to further those conversations on how it has landed and some interesting lines of inquiry in terms of work, that's going to be done over the next, we want to take it forward.

[00:12:50] Ross Mc: what would your ambition be for the, the flexible mind approach? You've talked about developing the, the group-based, um, intervention, but

[00:12:57] Ambition for the flexible mind approach

[00:12:57] Ross White: I see the flexible mind approach as, a helpful and beneficial approach in its own right, which I'm really excited to work with other organizations and practitioners around. And I also see it as a vehicle, a vehicle, to really enhance awareness around the importance of balancing those opportunities to develop performance and sustain wellbeing.

[00:13:27] Ross White: So a more sustainable approach to high performance, living. yeah, I'm, I'm hopeful that, uh, in addition to the flexible minded approach itself, the book and the work that we're involved in also serves to really enhance understanding about ways of finding that balance.

[00:13:47] Ross Mc: And I think that that's fundamental to the, to the message of the book, that these are not mutually exclusive. You can have a really high performance and look after your own wellbeing. [00:14:00] And as you're talking about yourself before the, the rest and the recovery and the connections with others, that can still take place.

[00:14:07] the cost to wellbeing

[00:14:07] Ross White: Exactly. Sustainability is the key element here that we're really bringing through so that it's not this boom and bust. Approach where yes, people go all out and excel, but it's at the cost of their wellbeing and it's not something that they can maintain in the longer term. So a sustainable approach to high performance living.

[00:14:31] Ross Mc: Can you help me articulate the connection between the, the flexible mind and strive to thrive

[00:14:37] Ross White: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So Strive to Thrive is the clinical psychology consultancy organization that I'm the director of, and we're based in the, in Northern Ireland, but working across the uk. it delivers training, delivers one-to-one work to support individuals, uh, delivers group-based, uh, support as well.

[00:15:03] Ross White: And. Yeah, there's opportunities to deliver supervision for practitioners as well. And that's, uh, an element of my work that I really enjoy too. so strive to thrive. Yeah. Clinical psychology, consultancy business and the flexible mind is one of the approaches that we use in the work that we do. yeah.

[00:15:25] Ross White: Strive to thrive the organization. Flexible mind, the approach, one of the approaches that we use in the work, depending on what the requirements of the clients are.

[00:15:36] Ross Mc: Sure. Thank you. That, that's super helpful for, well, for me to position it in, in my mind. Where, where, how they connect to each other

[00:15:43] Ross Mc: and what's, what's in the pipeline. Any other things that you can share with us? Yeah. Torres.

[00:15:48] Ross White: Yeah, I'm working obviously on a monthly basis to produce the newsletter. Um, the fact to thrive and very committed to growing the [00:16:00] readership. It's been lovely to see the response and the subscriptions coming through. So hopefully we'll be able to include the, the link for the signup to the newsletter so that, um, people can get that delivered into their email inbox.

[00:16:13] Ross White: I'm also writing a book at the moment. and the manuscript, needs to be delivered, uh, by November of this year. So very much, got my eyes down and doing writing around that project, so I can't say too much about that at this stage. But, uh, watch this space and, um, I think it's fair to say that it will be developing ideas related to the flexible mind approach.

[00:16:42] Ross White: And, um, I'm quite excited and looking forward to getting that out there too in G Court.

[00:16:48] Ross Mc: Hmm. Exciting. We'll have to get you back on when that, that lands.

[00:16:52] Ross White: So, just to, to say a little further about that, that whereas the acceptance and commitment approaches for athletes wellbeing and performance book that was published by Palgrave is very much directed towards practitioners. and helping to guide them and the work that they do. this book will be intended for a much broader readership, um, so that people, athletes, members of the public can take that up themselves and, and read it for, for themselves and get the benefit of it that way.

[00:17:26] Ross Mc: So you, you continue in your mission to make this accessible for, for different audiences, whether it's those who are in a refugee status situation, whether it's athletes, whether it's those delivering interventions to athletes.

[00:17:42] Introducing CFT

[00:17:42] Ross Mc: Uh, super to hear about this. And how do you find, because this is a real personal question for me, but how do you find introducing elements from compassion focused therapy to.

[00:17:54] Ross Mc: To elite athletes cuz I, I try to weave it into my approach with leaders and [00:18:00] organizations and sometimes it's, it's kind of a bit of trial and error to be honest, but sometimes it lands pretty well. Sometimes it goes, people start to talk about the soft stuff or the, the fluffy stuff and I'm like, oh no, I'm off the mark here.

[00:18:15] Ross Mc: But, ha ha. Have you had any insights on that?

[00:18:18] Ross White: Yeah. I think it's important to be sensitive to the concept, the context, and to get a sense of frames of reference that might exist that you can, uh, help to convey this important work through. yeah. Certainly a can land different ways for different people, and really trying to adjust some of the terminology so that, uh, it makes sense.

[00:18:43] Ross White: It lands well, it, it feels relevant for people. And compassion. Uh, yeah. I can see that some people may fall into a misconception of assuming that in some way that's soft or, or too gentile. Uh, particularly in worlds where, concepts like mantle, toughness and grit are, are prioritized. but sometimes the tough stuff is the compassionate stuff, right?

[00:19:12] Ross White: You know, that being prepared to carry yourself gently to take care of yourself, is the important work that needs to be done. so yeah, being sensitive to the context, using freedoms of reference that feel meaningful to people and. Yeah, just trying to ensure that, that people can get on board with the importance of, of compassion focused work.

[00:19:40] Ross White: So, you know, what is, what is compassion? Well, it's being able to empathize. So to recognize that, there may be some difficult emotions in play and it's an intention to engage in behaviors that can potentially [00:20:00] resolve some of that emotional difficulty. So both the empathy and the intention to bring about some change.

[00:20:09] Ross White: And, yeah, there are different approaches that can be used for that. Some of them are more formal. mindfulness practices, that can again, be tailored and tweaked for particular contexts. And, yeah, I'm quite excited about, about that work and the opportunities that it brings.

[00:20:26] Flexibility

[00:20:26] Ross Mc: I'm conscious of using the word flexibility. It can be misconstrued or misinterpreted by people. To think that I just have to be kind of a, a passive actor in this and accommodate things. I wonder if you could just unpack that a bit more for the, for the listeners, Ross.

[00:20:43] Ross White: Yeah, it's great that you're picking up on that. it really important that to recognize that everybody likes to think that they're flexible and, uh, yeah. Flexibility has different meanings. so important to emphasize that psychological flexibility is not about being accommodating and being able to be a little pragmatic and a little spontaneous and go with the flow and, You know, that can be an element of psychological flexibility, but sometimes psychological flexibility is about sticking to your guns, if that's what the context requires.

[00:21:25] Ross White: It's about saying no to requests that are made off you because you recognize it's not in the service of what truly matters to you, and you're not being authentic. You don't have that level of integrity. If you comply with those requests. So yeah, it flexibility can sometimes be misunderstood. And what we're actually talking about here is people's ability to have difficult thoughts and feelings and still do the stuff that matters to them.

[00:21:59] Ross White: [00:22:00] And that's where the pod of psychological flexibility comes in P for being present in this space and in this time, even though you may wish to transport yourself somewhere else, being open, which is about recognizing that our mind is a story generating machine that we can get hooked by. And being willing to make space for the strong emotions that can show up with those stories and then do what matters.

[00:22:33] Ross White: Explore what your values are, which values you would freely choose. Influence how you live your life and commit to actions that are consistent with those values.

[00:22:46] Ross Mc: Me. I don't think I've ever heard that put so beautifully, Ross, and it's superpower. That question around flexibility led to a takeaway. I would say that's, that's an amazing takeaway for our listeners,

[00:22:59] Additional takeaway

[00:22:59] Ross Mc: and, and Ross, I wonder if you've got any, any additional takeaway. Of course, I would en strongly encourage all the p supers to subscribe to the newsletter. And again, the link will be in the show notes. But, but any other reflections for our listen.

[00:23:14] Ross White: Well, I think, uh, an important takeaway that I would like the listeners to, to really take from our conversation today. I'm grateful to have had the opportunity and the platform to speak to your listeners. It is that we do place so much emphasis on achieving that it can come at the cost of our wellbeing and in those efforts to stand out from the crowd.

[00:23:41] Ross White: We can lose sight of who we really are and what matters to us, and it doesn't need to be that way. We can excel and feel well. Those don't need to be mutually exclusive, and that psychological flexibility is, I think, a key ingredient to that.[00:24:00] It can really help us to develop from being one trick ponies to horses that can thrive on many courses. And I hope that the listeners will be interested enough to learn more about Psychological Flexibility Day and the difference that it can make for them.

[00:24:18] Ross Mc: Ross, thank you so much for coming on the show. I am honored and in awe to be part of the Ross slash Roscoe collective, and I'd just like to thank you for your, your generosity and what you've shared, your openness and your clarity of thinking, which has really shn through for me.

[00:24:40] Ross Mc: And yeah, thank you so much.

[00:24:45] Ross White: Pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity.

[00:24:47] Ross Mc: And I just wanted to just say I'm a bit jealous too, cuz people often say, oh Ross, you've got such a relaxing voice. You've got a great voice for podcasts, y yada yada yada. And I think you've outdone me, man. I think you've knocked off my crown.

[00:25:04] Ross White: I am honored that you think so, but uh, I reckon you'd still be a better singer than me.

[00:25:11] Ross Mc: Oh, well maybe, maybe at a future conference we can have a bit of a sing off.

[00:25:15] Ross White: Oh, the deal has been struck karaoke here.

[00:25:19] Ross Mc: What have I said right there it is. It's out there folks. That's it. Pup's part two in the bag. Thanks so much to Ross for the work he does, the impact he has with his research, his books, and his other initiatives. you'll find all the useful links in the show notes. Also, remember last week Ross talked about commit and act their work in Sierra Leone.

[00:25:48] Ross Mc: If it's possible for you, please consider supporting Commit and Act either through donating your time, energy, or expertise, or through a financial contribution. You'll find the links in the show notes, and if you [00:26:00] do make a financial contribution, please do let me know as I'll match each of your donations up to a maximum total value of 100 Euros.

[00:26:08] We'd love to get your reviews. So please let us know what you think on the socials or drop me an email or a voice note on WhatsApp.

[00:26:14] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

[00:26:33] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup.

[00:26:50] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now.

[00:27:04] Ross White: Brilliant. Thank you. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm really tough that you asked me to be part of it. I've been a big admirer of the work that you've been doing and yeah. Curiosity to you for continuing to, uh, invest in this and to see it doing so well. It's brilliant.

[00:27:22] Ross White: