Physical therapy expert Dr. BJ Leeper and professional triathlete Elizabeth James.

They are joining us to talk about how to return to our triathlon training after an injury or a surgery.

Specifically, there's a lot of reasons why we can take a temporary pause on our training and returning from injury in surgery.

There's.

Yeah, you gotta be careful.

I'm Andrew, the average triathlete, voice of the people and captain of the middle of the pack.

We treat the show like any good workout.

We'll start with a warmup question, settle into our main set conversation, and then wind things down by having Dr. Leeper and Elizabeth answer an audience question on the cooldown.

Lots of good stuff.

Let's get to it.

This is the Tridot podcast, the triathlon show that brings you world class coaching with every conversation.

Let's get started with today's warmup.

Big or small, triathlon related or triathlon adjacent?

What is the most recent injury you have had and how did you get that injury?

Very excited to hear what our folks have to say.

While we're talking about coming back from injury, I thought let's hear about the last time the three of us were injured.

So, Elizabeth, tell us about your latest injury.

Mishap, whatever it was.

All right.

Yeah, so my most recent injury was a sprain of the ligaments around the big toe joint, which is also known as turf toe.

I now understand what that is and just how painful it is.

So, yeah, it happened while I was pacing a friend in an ultra just super rocky terrain.

It was at night, stubbed my toe on a rock and as I said now I can fully emphasize with what turf toe is and it seems like such an insignificant thing, but it was so painful and it just lingered forever.

This is one I found incredibly hard to rehab because it's, I mean, the big toe's so important.

We use it every single day just walking around.

So yeah, turf toe, that would be my most recent.

All right.

It's like when you hurt your back, right?

You can't do any.

Or your neck like you wake up because you slept in your neck.

Wrong.

You can't do anything without your back and your neck.

Definitely highlighted for you the importance of the big toe.

Yeah, I love it.

Dr. BJ Leeper, turf toe or something different.

Oh, man.

I mean, I didn't have anything good for this question until just this last weekend we went camping and I decided to be a dad hero and all the kids were jumping off this like 15 foot cliff near where we, we were camping and kind of taking the Paddle boards out.

And I decide, oh, I'm gonna dive like I used to do in middle school and high school at the high, dive at the pool.

And I haven't done a dive for like 30 years.

How hard get out there?

Yeah, exactly.

And I, I get out there and I jump.

And apparently I did not go as vertical into the water as I thought I was going to go.

And all of a sudden I, I thought I literally dislocated, tore my shoulder off because of the impact of the water at that height is enough that you don't want those limbs exposed or at weird angles.

And it took my left shoulder and just completely subluxed it and was sore the whole rest of the weekend.

And I just was so frustrated because here I was thinking I was still 16 again and my body's like, Nope, you're not BJ.

Mine is actually similar to yours.

Mine is me trying to be a little younger than, than I am.

July 4th, holiday of 2025, we traveled to Florida to spend some time at the beach with my Florida family.

And so is me and my siblings and their kids.

And so a bunch of nephews and nieces and aunts and uncles all hanging out at the beach.

And one of my sister's sons shout out to my nephew Lane.

He plays soccer and apparently is, is every team has been on the fastest kid on the team.

He's at an age now in junior high where he's faster than all the adults in his life.

And so, you know, all of the Florida family is like, oh well, your Uncle Andrew from Texas is pretty fast.

You know, I wonder if you're faster now than Uncle Andrew.

All of a sudden this chatter from early in the trip becomes me turning around and you know, the, the three other uncles and some of the nephews are all getting in a line and determining how far we're going to run for a foot race.

And I'm like, guys, I don't think you understand.

Like if I go from zero to a dead sprint right now without a warm up, I'm going to pull a muscle.

I'm going to, there's like a greater than 50 chance I pull a muscle.

If we race right now on the beach, but everybody's lining up.

None of them were concerned about it.

None of them thought they were going to get injured.

And like I, you know, I start walking that way.

My wife's like, I mean, she knows how easily I can get injured and she's like, this is a bad idea.

And so all of a sudden, like, I'm not really ready.

And somebody says, go.

And everybody starts running.

So I'm not, I'm now behind.

And so I start running.

I have to kind of, you know, kick in the third and fourth gear to catch everybody.

I do catch everybody.

I do pass everybody.

I take the lead with plenty of room to go.

And right as I'm kind of like surging ahead, I sure enough, as predicted, feel up, feel a pop in my quad.

Is it bj Is the quad on the front of the leg?

Yeah, quadricep, but between quadricep and hamstring, I forget which one's the front and which one's the back.

So I feel a pop in my quadricep and I start hobbling.

And everybody else goes by me and finishes and everybody was like, yeah, you hurt yourself?

I'm like, yeah, I'm 37 years old.

I'm an easily injured athlete.

I have to warm up before I do something like this.

Hey, guys, we're gonna, we're gonna throw this question out to our audience.

I'm excited to hear what was your most recent injury?

From turf toe to shoulders to pulling quadriceps.

Hopefully you guys have have some good ones and hopefully they, hopefully they're good stories but.

But weren't too bad of an injury to recover from.

We'll throw this question out on all of the tried out social media accounts.

So go find the post asking you what was the most recent injury you had.

Our podcast is now on YouTube.

It is now on Spotify in both those places as a video podcast.

So you can watch us have this conversation.

You can watch BJ Leeper share the story of him diving into the Montana water and separating his shoulder.

But in those places, YouTube and Spotify, you can answer this question as well and we look forward to seeing what your most recent injury is.

Let's go.

All right, on to the main set where Coach Elizabeth and Dr. BJ Leeper are going to talk to us about coming back from an injury.

If you, you know, do a sprint race on the beach and pull your quadricep and you're coming back to training from injury, how do you go about doing that?

How do you go about making sure you're easing back into the training correctly?

And bj, before we start getting into specifics, I kind of have like a two part challenge here.

I've got a challenge to the both of you to give us today as actionable of advice and as practical advice as you can, because I know the answer to every question I'm going to ask today.

Could Very well be, it depends.

It depends, it depends.

It depends on the athlete, the situation, the injury, their history.

I know that.

So, so please, my challenge to you try to give us as actionable of advice as you can.

The challenge to our listeners is to do the best you can to hear what Elizabeth and BJ have to say and, and put, put, put your thinking cap on and apply it to your situation because they can only get so specific today with something as variable as returning to injury.

So there's my, my double disclaimer.

The challenge to the audience, challenge to our, our experts.

We're going to do the best we can to give some practical advice today and some learning opportunity.

But BJ, in, in light of me joking, but not jokingly saying that how individualized does a return to training plan need to be for an athlete?

Well, you've already taken all of my context away of using that.

It depends because that's pretty much every answer.

Right?

But yeah, I, and to your point, Andrew, like we, we know it's, it's individualized, but I think there's some general things we can focus on that are, are helpful for anybody struggling with an injury or going through that process.

And, and I always break it down into, into two things.

It's like strategies versus tactics.

And I think a lot of us tend to get so wrapped up in the tactics of like what do I specifically need to do?

But I think you need to keep that lens on of looking at the overarching strategy of how you're approaching your return.

So there's certain principles and guidelines that can definitely be applied to almost all of us as we're going through that return to training approach following injury.

But, but obviously depending on the injury, the approach will need to be individualized as it should be.

But one thing I think that's a big nugget to hang on as we talk about return to injury.

Is one of the main goals as you're returning to injury is to reduce the risk of further injury or future injury, obviously.

And that is one of our biggest indicators, especially in the medical world.

One of the first things we ask is we work with athletes and patients is what's your injury history?

Because the biggest indicator of future injury is previous injury.

So I think as we look at trying to prevent future injury, we have to be realistic and understand the history and obviously that history for each person is individual.

Yeah, no, great B.J.

thanks so much for kind of giving us just a framework for this conversation right through that answer.

And again for athletes listening today, I mean There is no telling, you know, what, what your injury stories are and what you'll experience in the future.

And so as you hear the advice today, the wisdom today, you know, in, you know, you try to take what you hear and apply it to your situation when you get there.

And I'm sure, like Elizabeth and BJ will probably tell us in this episode, work with a specialist in your area if you can, if the injury is bad enough.

But we'll get to that here in a little bit.

So let's get right into the big question.

And this is when we are out for an injury, how do we determine when and how to return to training?

You know, what are the factors in our body cues that we should consider before making that return?

Dr. B.J.

Yeah, and these, these are two huge questions, right?

The, the when and the how.

And one thing I always, and I've, I think I've shared this story before, even on a previous podcast, but one thing I always reference in kind of addressing the question of even just when is going back to high school.

And this car that I drove in high school, starting as a sophomore in high school, I had this old 92.

I mean, at the time, it was pretty hot car.

It wasn't bj, We're a video podcast.

I can pop this on the screen if you send me this picture.

It was a 92 Toyota Celica.

And I drove that car from sophomore year of high school, literally 20, 25 years, because I just loved that car.

I drove it forever.

Even as I got older, everybody at work was like, why are you still driving that thing?

But I just loved it.

But the funny thing about it was occasionally being an older car, as it got advanced in years, it started to have the check engine light that would pop on occasionally.

And at first it was like, oh, what's going on?

I took notice.

And then over time, I'd realize, well, I didn't do anything about it.

And here it is, two days later, it's gone, right?

So I'm like, well, I guess out of sight, out of mind.

I don't need to worry too much about it.

And then as it got older and as I got older, it would start to come on and stay on for, for weeks to the point where I was still hoping it would just go away, but still didn't want to do anything about it because I was just, you know, it was a reliable car overall, but I was just kind of lazy at that point.

I'm like, I don't want to deal with it.

And it got to A point where I was so annoyed with that check engine light being always on that I would take a strip of like black electrical tape and cover it over the dashboard so I didn't have to see it.

It was like this.

Just in my mind, if it could be out of sight, I would have to worry about it.

If I didn't see it, it wasn't a big deal.

And I think that's often how we deal with injuries, especially when there are those check engine light warning signs on.

Like even if we know there's been an incident and we've been injured, it's like that when of how do we know when we're, when we're ready to go back?

Like, when should we take it in and shut it down and really deal with it?

And I think there's certain red flags, like those check engine light indicators where we just have to really know our body and really be in tune with it.

You know, for example, if you're still, if you're taking ibuprofen every single session in order to just execute it and get through it.

You know, we always joke, it's, it's even Vitamin I we call it because it's ibuprofen becomes a staple.

Like those are indicators, those are red, you know, check engine lights that, that need to be looked at if you're having pain, not just later in the activity, but right from the onset activity, and it doesn't improve as the activity goes on.

Like that's a big red flag.

If basic movements, just squatting, stepping, reaching to touch your toes, like when you get out of bed in the morning.

If those basic movements are painful, it's no longer a fitness issue, it's a health issue.

So I think as triathletes, and we're probably the worst at this because we were known to push just through anything.

I think it's number one.

When should you return to training?

It's like, well, when are those check engine lights obvious cues, obvious indicators off the table?

If those are off the table, then, okay, let's start to approach training and then how do we do that?

It's like, well, you know, there's no exact science answer to it, but I think there's certain indicators you have to look at.

And I always use the strategy of a three point pain check principle.

So meaning if you decide, okay, red flag indicators off the bat are off the table.

I'm getting back into training.

Do I have pain at any point during that training?

If I can check no on that box, okay, did I have pain or discomfort due to that activity or training later on that day, did I have pain or discomfort because of that training when I woke up the next morning?

If you can check no on all three of those counts, you're likely returning to training in an appropriate manner.

But if you can check the box like, yep, that got me.

You probably need to adjust.

And so again, it's, it's not a great answer, but it's more of a principle of how do you approach it?

And I think it's just, again, nobody knows your body better than you, and when in doubt, don't.

What, what I like about that answer, bj, you say it's not a great answer, but I, I think it's a phenomenal answer because I think I, I know for myself and I'm sure for a lot of the folks listening, like that reminder to if that engine light is on still, right?

Like, you, especially if you're coming off like, like, like an injury where you really hurt something, right?

Like, you could feel exponentially better but still have a little pain or a little tightness or a little something, right?

And be like, oh, I feel better.

I think I'm good enough to try it.

It's like, no, no, no, that light is still on.

Like, clear that light first.

Don't be like, Dr. B.J.

leaper, Celica, clear the light first and then start training or else you could, you know, re.

Injure yourself again.

So I think in most cases, definitely speaking for myself, I, I usually try it probably a little too soon when I, I feel like, okay, I'm close enough, let's try, let's try a soft run and see how it goes.

And, yeah, the light's still on.

And even though you feel a little bit better.

And so, yeah, I, I really like that answer, Elizabeth, just from your own experience and as you talk with your athletes and coach your athletes, is there anything different you say or additional points you point out to them when it comes to time for them to return from an injury?

Yeah, certainly nothing different.

I'm sure that, you know, BJ's help guiding me back from a number of injuries plays.

Plays a big role in how I approach things with the athletes I coach now.

But one of the things that, as I'm talking with them and we talk through, it's like if you sought medical help and the advice of a medical professional in this injury, then we also need clearance from them to return.

And I kind of, you know, view that with injury or illness.

It's like if you went to the doctor we need the doctor's advice on when we're okay to return.

You know, if you had surgery, like, I need that orthopedic surgeon to give us clearance and guidance on when we're going to return.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I mean, type and severity of injuries is certainly a factor there.

And really being able to rely on medical professionals and their advice in terms of a return to training plan is very helpful.

I definitely do kind of those three checks in terms of pain levels with how does it feel during a little bit after, what's the next morning?

And then also looking at, like the swelling and the inflammation as well, that, you know, even if an athlete is like, oh, it doesn't hurt that bad, but my knee is three times the size of what it should be, it's like, okay, yeah, like, even if you're saying that it doesn't hurt, clearly the body is giving you that check engine light or there's a warning sign here that something isn't right.

Kind of same thing with, you know, range of motion or strength and muscle control.

Even if something doesn't hurt, but an athlete is adjusting their gait or adjusting their pedal stroke for doesn't mean that, you know, that's not going to come back in a compensation that's going to cause a different issue later.

And so even if they can perform an activity without necessarily increased pain, but I can see that they're failing, favoring something, we, we really need to look at that because that's where we really, really are risking, you know, a different injury or a chronic issue from the compensations that they're making.

And then the only other thing that I would add to this is there's also a psychological readiness to come back from injury.

And one of the things that I see this most often is, is, is some sort of trauma that has happened.

And unfortunately, probably the biggest case scenario here is, is a bike crash or if there's a bike accident between a bike and a car.

And returning to injury may not be necessarily a physical limitation, but they may not be ready to, to get back on the bike yet.

We may need to do, you know, some, some mental work first to really have them feel comfortable and feel safe.

In order to do that, and we may need to modify some things as well and, you know, go back to easier training sessions, go back to indoor training sessions.

It might be a while until that athlete is psychologically ready to take on some of those training sessions again.

And I think that that's an important component that we really need to think about.

With injury.

Um, and I'm sure it's something we'll touch on a little bit later, too, with just the mental component as well as the physical.

Yeah, really interesting, Elizabeth.

Andrew, if I can jump in, because I think what EJ just said right there is huge.

We know that pain is a conscious feeling produced by the brain 100% of the time.

And Elizabeth mentioned a great word, trauma.

And it's not just the trauma of, like, something that we would all assume is traumatic, like a crash, but any injury, depending on the level and how it affected that that athlete is traumatic.

And how the brain responds to that and how the brain encapsulates that moment of time or moment of period of time with that injury is huge, because the body and this is huge.

The point of what Elizabeth said with working with a professional to help guide that return to training, because you can still be dealing with that feeling of pain and that trauma in your brain, but mechanically and chemically, your body has cleared that injury and the injury has healed, but yet you still feel something that's very real to you because of that traumatic incident.

And I don't want to dismiss that because that is such a key component to getting over an injury.

And we'll talk more a little bit about that, but that's huge.

Yeah, very, very interesting.

Thanks for adding that, bj.

I. I've had a number of tri dot athletes ask for an episode like this for one reason or another.

Right?

But.

But I'm sure it's because in their current triathlon journey, they are trying to navigate coming back from an injury.

And.

And one of those people who's like, hey, we should do an episode on Coming Back to Training is one of the producers of our show, Sarah Bernie.

Sarah is a Try to ambassador who works with me on the Try to podcast.

So shout out to her.

She's very helpful in a number of ways behind the scenes for the podcast.

But Sarah, a little earlier this year had a surgery and she is currently working with her doctors and the best game plan for returning to training.

And guys, her doctors are not triathletes who know what her next half ironman is on the calendar and know, you know, just.

Just how strong that pull to come back can be for a pesky endurance athlete like us.

So I'm just a little curious for Sarah personally and anybody else who's like, Sarah, is there a difference between coming back to training from a medical procedure, like some form of surgery, and coming back from hurting something like pulling a muscle or having turf toe or.

Or Is it just different forms of bodily trauma that we have to rebound from?

And then I guess, wrapped up in this as well.

Just making this a very compound question for you, B.J.

so get ready.

You know, wrapped up in here as well is, is how much do we listen to the advice of a medical practitioner who is not endurance athlete, savvy?

Do we, do we listen to them all in on their timetable for return or should we also consult with somebody who is a little bit more athletic, Trained a lot there.

Bj, Take it away.

Yeah, it's a great question and I think it makes a lot of sense.

But first and foremost, the first question of, you know, dealing with a surgery or a planned procedure versus a typical injury or run of the mill, whatever, you know, physiologically, we know that tissue is tissue.

You know, your tissue doesn't know whether it had surgery or some type of different trauma.

The mechanisms technically of healing are still the same, however, because we know that surgery involves, you know, a primary intention of the surgeon.

We know that that's done for a reason and in a certain way so that hopefully the speed and characteristics of that healing can be faster, they can be different.

So there's less complications potentially with, with the healing of a surgical incision with minimal scarring and whatnot than some other type of injury.

And I think along those lines, you know, there are certain protocols because surgeons and doctors have worked with those types of procedures over time, so they know in general what works well, maybe what doesn't.

So obviously there's certain protocols to abide by in the early stages of healing that, that your doctor is going to be the expert on.

But to your second question, when you get to that point of bridging the gap back into the things we love with training and racing, especially with triathlon, there is a bridge to gap, you know, a gap to bridge, so to speak, that is going to be different and the context of that is different and different demands that a triathlete has and just your general Joe that wants to get back to walking and going up, down, down the stairs.

So I think it is key to align with a physician, a provider that understands your goals and what you're trying to get back to.

And like we said earlier, nobody knows your body better than you.

But at the same point of what EJ said, like, you need the guidance of that medical provider at times to make sure you're doing the right things.

I think aligning with the provider, because being one of those medical providers, the first thing I'm doing is making sure I'M taking the time to listen and align to what the athlete or the patient is telling me what their goals are and where they're at.

And as a patient or as an athlete, on the other side of it, if you're finding that that medical provider is not listening to you, not really hearing you, even though you might be the one pushing and they're the ones pulling back, if you're not able to meet in the middle or you don't feel like there's alignment there, then you can be an advocate for your own healthcare and pursue somebody that you feel like does align.

That doesn't mean you're just firing every provider because they're not giving you the answer you want.

I'm going to go ask mom for permission because dad said no.

But there needs to be an alignment and there needs to be that understanding.

And I think most people get it when that provider is not just, okay, yeah, yeah, whatever, I got to get it to my next patient.

But they're actually hearing you and understanding, oh, I get it.

Let's work together on this.

That's obviously key.

Yeah.

Elizabeth, as you're coaching your athletes, is, is this something that comes up?

Have you walked through these kind of scenarios with an athlete who's wanting permission from coach to train, but you're, you're trying to talk to the, the, the, the providers to make sure it's okay?

Yeah, absolutely.

I, I was like nodding and smiling.

I mean, the whole time as BJ was talking about this, I, I can think of examples like from my own, like, return to training and then ones with my athletes.

I, I specifically remember the first time I ever had something done on the, on the hamstring that I had torn.

The doctor told me, he's like, all right, like, you know, just walking.

And I was like, all right, well, what are my limitations on walking?

He's like, oh, walking is so low volume.

Like you can walk as much as you want.

And I went back in for a follow up like three weeks later.

And you know, me and my little calendar, I, I've got, you know, my homework that I'm ready to turn in.

And he's looking at this.

He's like, you walk like 10k every day.

And I was like, yeah.

And he was like, what, what are you like, why?

And I was like, well, you said.

I could walk functions of walking.

And he was like, that's, that's way too much.

And I was like, like, we.

Same page.

Exactly.

I was like, oh, man, he didn't.

Know who you were he didn't know what you're about.

Yeah, we all saw that, where that was going.

Yep, exactly.

And so finding medical professionals that you can really have good alignment with is key.

And that's something that I have found is super important for me.

And I. I told the physical therapist that I've been working with all of this year.

I was like, look, you have to give me very strict guidelines, because any leeway you give, I'm going to take, because I'm so anxious to get back to this.

And so if there's something that's a hard no, like, I need to know that that's a hard no.

It's not a maybe, or you can try it and you can see it's like, no, absolutely not.

Like, we're not cleared for that yet.

And so I know myself, I know that I need those strict guidelines, and I. I also know that I need to find medical professionals that are not afraid to tell me that, because that.

That works well for me.

I mean, I've gone through a number of physical therapists in order to find one that really jived well with me, my goals, the.

The type of communication, getting me back to where I wanted to be.

And that was.

And Elizabeth, when you say that, when you say that this, the one you're with now, you drive well with them.

That doesn't just mean that they give you permission to do what you want to do.

Right.

In fact, quite the opposite.

Okay.

It's been the most strict and the person that's given me the most limitations, and that's been very helpful for me and has kept me continually progressing versus somebody that gives me a little more leeway and I go when I do too much.

So, yeah, it.

It's been great.

And I mean, same thing with the athletes that I work with.

You know, we.

We work to find that gradual progression, that kind of individualized approach.

We're continuously monitoring the symptoms.

I mean, I. I think sometimes my athletes get annoyed with me because I'm like, well, how did it feel after?

And then I'll text them again a few hours later.

I was like, well, how's your pain level now?

And then I'll check in again the next morning.

I was like, how are we feeling before we're going into this training session?

But, I mean, I do.

I want to just monitor those symptoms continuously and make sure that, like, the gradual progression that we're going on is.

Is appropriate for them.

And so I think that those are, you know, some big guidelines when I'm looking at an athlete Coming back myself.

Coming back gradual individual, continuously monitoring.

So.

So, Elizabeth, part of why I brought you onto this episode with Dr. B.J.

leeper, unfortunately, is because you are an athlete that in the last couple years has had a number of different injuries in the time that I've known you.

I. I get so.

Annoyed is the wrong word.

Jealous, maybe a little envious.

And I'm sure you're probably the same way.

I know athletes that.

That.

There's a girl I used to work with in television that was a producer at the network.

I was at her Strava.

She was just a runner, not a triathlete.

But her Strava, she logged like two 140something miles on the year, and I ran like 600 that year.

Next to swimming and biking.

Right.

As well.

But I'm doing all my things and I'm picking up a niggle here, a nick there, a limp there, and she's just always fine.

She can run endlessly and it's always fine.

And I know other athletes like that.

You and I aren't that way.

You and I will hurt ourselves very deeply and very badly if we do too much to whatever.

If we look the wrong way at a track, we can hurt ourselves.

Um, and so, Elizabeth, what I'm curious to hear from, just from your personal experience, how has the return from injury been like injury to injury?

You've had a variety of different injuries.

Is the protocol always kind of similar, or is it just very different based on what the injury was?

Yeah, that's.

That's a great question.

I would say that the general guidelines for returning to training have applied to, I mean, all of the injuries that I've had.

Um, but what has been very different is the rate of progression and then the types of activities that I've been able to do during specific points of the rehab process.

For example, like, coming back from broken bones has been much easier than soft tissue and.

And tendon.

Yeah, interesting.

Yeah, interesting.

I mean, when I broke my hand, I, you know, crashed my bike, broke my hand.

I was in a cast for eight weeks.

What?

Won a race on the trainer.

Won the race when you broke your hand.

Let's throw that one down.

That's true.

It does make for a good story.

Y. Um, but yeah, I mean, I was in a cast for eight weeks, but I could still bike on the trainer.

I could run outside.

I. I could even get in the pool and do some kick drills.

And so that was like, very minimal in terms of rehab.

Just put the hand in the cast for eight weeks.

But like, when I had surgery on my hamstring, I was limited.

I mean, I know we just joked about this, but limited to only walking for a few months.

And I eventually pulled that back into a very manageable walking load.

Um, and one of the things that I found, and we touched on this a little bit earlier too, about the, the mental side of things, is that I have found that the more physical limitations that I've had, I've also really had to be proactive on my attitude and like, other supporting rehabilitation activities.

And so making sure that I have a very clear plan and celebrating progress along the way has been super important.

When my hand was in a cast, I, I didn't feel very limited.

I, I really didn't see that as, like a major injury.

I mean, despite a broken bone, because there was still so much that I could do now when I was down to just walking and really peeled that back to 15, 20 minutes a day.

I mean, I, I really had to work on my attitude and really had to focus on, okay, what can I do right now?

And, and how can I still stay involved?

Because I was missing not only, you know, hours of activity, but the endorphins that go along with that.

And I wasn't getting the dopamine hit.

And so it's like, I need to support myself mentally when physically I'm very limited.

And so for me, I would say, you know, general guidelines of gradual progression and monitoring symptoms have been similar in all the injuries, but the more that we take away the physical part of it, I've had to work even harder on the mental component to, to stay positive, stay strong, celebrate the wins, and, and really just define what that path back was going to be.

Yeah, thanks so much for sharing that.

And, and bj, something I'm curious about is, you know, earlier we talked about the check engine light, and you kind of gave us the disclaimer that, that whatever the surgery was, whatever the injury is, as you're coming back, you know, don't make sure that check engine light is off before you start really training.

Right.

And so if there's an athlete at home, they've experienced something, they're, they're.

They're kind of pumping the brakes.

They're waiting, they're waiting, they're waiting.

They feel good.

Okay, I listen to Dr. Leaper.

I think the check engine light has, has kind of clicked off at that point.

Can we jump back in full steam or is there some sort of protocol for easing back into the training, or does it depend.

Please tell us.

Guess.

Guess.

What I'm gonna say.

I, it depends.

It depends.

Yeah.

No, you gave him permission to use it.

He's been wanting to use it all episode.

Now that's another great question.

I, you know, very rarely are you able to jump back just full, full steam, 100% most of the return.

I mean, even if even, even the judgment on when to come back to training is, is still a guessing game, truly.

I mean there are certain indicators, like we talked about, that you got to make sure to clear, but it's, it's literally hard to know for everybody.

And then even when you do return, it's, it's, it's very, very rare that you just pull back, you know, full steam ahead 100%.

So I think it's good for athletes to understand that this is going to be a roller coaster ride like that's expected very rarely linear progression that you just knock it out of the park.

Even like with what Elizabeth's talking about, with good guidance and a provider that really dials her in and keeps her on, on track, very rarely are you going to hit right at that razor's edge.

We always talk about this razor's edge of the threshold of your ability because ideally with return to training, you want to be pushing to that razor's edge without exceeding it.

Right?

Without exceeding it and risking re injury or chemical irritation, all these things.

If you can push to that razor's edge without exceeding it and continue to progress as efficiently and as rapidly as you can, that's the ideal.

But to hit that nail on the head is very tricky.

And so again, like we said earlier, a lot of times, especially as a triathlete or a runner, you're going to push, the provider is going to pull back and try to pull you back.

And then hopefully you're meeting in the middle, which is that razor's edge.

And that's why sometimes you see different providers where they're going to be extremely conservative.

They're going to pull back far below that razor's edge, which may be good for certain individuals, may not be.

It depends too on the personality of the individual.

Like if I've got an athlete I'm working with who I know they're going to be walking 10k every day like TJ I might need to put those guardrails up and really pull them back so that we can continue to have more a linear, linear approach and less of the roller coaster ride.

But all that said, you're never going to nail it a hundred percent right out of the gate.

So I think it's good to know.

Number one, probably not going to jump back full steam.

But number two, you can get back efficiently as long as you're looking at those indicators like we talked about, those red flags.

One other big thing to note that I think is really, really interesting and to bring up even right now is that as you're returning back from injury and like we talked about, you're never going to hit it perfectly in a linear fashion when you do have those setbacks in those episodes, like where you do maybe hit I had pain during or later or that next day.

Oftentimes as you're and I've seen this before, and this is something that not a lot of people talk about, is the way your body responds and returns back to normal movement is through what we call the neuroplasticity of motor programming or motor packages.

And the way I explain this to people is like when you first learned, for example, how to shoot a free throw, you went through all the individual steps, the drills that a coach.

I don't think I've ever learned how to properly shoot a free throw.

BJ I'm never, I'm 5, 6 ish.

So I.

We play different sports.

I played basketball.

So that's what I relate to.

I'm tracking with you.

I'm tracking with you.

But as you learn those individual drills and all the parts that go into shooting a free throw, as you develop that pattern, your brain and the way your body operates is very efficient in that it doesn't say, okay, do this with your hand, do this with your elbow, do this with your form.

It says, just activate the free throw shooting package.

And that package is stored as like a book on the bookshelf in your brain so that every time you do it, you grab that book and you execute that pattern.

And that is how we operate with everything.

Running, walking, riding a bike.

We operate in motor packages.

So think of all these books on the bookshelf that your brain is constantly grabbing to execute movement.

The opposite is also true.

When you develop a bad pattern, a bad book on that bookshelf due to injury, because of pain and a trauma or whatever, that book exists on the bookshelf and is never going away.

And it sounds weird to say that a lot of people think when they're returning from injury and they're doing rehab or whatever, whether it's with a provider or not, a lot of people assume that they're just taking that bad book and they're rewriting the pages of it, but that's not exactly true.

And how the brain and the neuroplasticity of our patterns are made.

So what I tell patients and athletes is that as you're returning back from injury, we're, we're creating that new book.

And our hope is that as we're progressing you in, in hopefully a linear fashion, as much as we can get away from the roller coasters, that you're grabbing that good book every time or more often than not.

But the reality is, even if you get months out from injury and you've been grabbing the book good, the good book pattern, more often than not, there still exists the capacity for your brain to go bad book pattern.

And you might feel pain as a result of that pattern or feel that compensation.

That's not because you're still injured or not because you still have tissue damage or mechanical injury.

It's simply because your brain accessed the bad book.

And that knowledge is sometimes so powerful for athletes to understand as they're coming back to know.

I might be one month in and I'm doing great, I'm having great sessions, I'm getting back, and then all of a sudden, boom, bad book hits and you feel like you're back to square one.

And like, like Elizabeth said, psychologically that is such a hard thing to deal with.

But knowing that, how the neuroplasticity of the brain works and knowing that that's possible, not to say that you can't start getting inflammation chemically and mechanical injury again because you're exceeding your threshold.

But oftentimes it's still just a bad book pattern that you just have to brush off.

Okay, it's okay.

I'm going to go back, get the good reps, good book pattern, and continue to move on.

So I bring that up because that's something that I never learned in school.

That's something a lot of athletes and patients coming back from injury don't necessarily realize that that can be happening in their brain.

And again, remember, pain is something that your brain produces.

Pain is not necessarily because you had this mechanical injury that produces pain.

There can be a stimulus that gets sent to your brain and then your brain interprets it as pain.

But pain is 100% produced by the conscious perception in your brain.

So again, when we talk about pain, a lot of times it's powerful, really empowering to know that information.

And there's a great book, and I've probably mentioned this before on a previous podcast where we've talked about pain specifically, but there's a great book by a neuroscientist named Lorimer Moseley, and it's called Explain Pain.

That talks a lot about the details of that.

So I'll often have patients or athletes, if I know they're dealing with that roller coaster ride, I'll often have them reference that book just so they can wrap their mind around it.

And sometimes just the knowledge of that is powerful to progressing past that injury.

That whole bad book, good book, like the visualization illustration of neuroplasticity, that is like, for me, like a top four.

Try that podcast.

Just individual fact that I've ever heard.

Like, I'm.

I'm sitting here, like, that's just like wrecking my brain.

Like, like.

Elizabeth, please, please respond.

What.

What did.

What did you think hearing that?

That was.

That was like four.

Four minutes of just fascinating factoids from Dr. Leaper.

This has been a saving grace for me.

I mean, truthfully, I. I can think back as.

As I was coming back from hamstring surgery.

I specifically remember that there was one of the, like, threshold interval bike rides and, you know, Tuesday morning trainer session.

And I am nailing it.

It's going so well.

But there's pain.

And, you know, I stop for a second and, like, the pain is gone.

And it's like, okay, wait, wait a second here.

Like, what.

What's going on?

You know, I start again and like, there's.

There's pain again.

And it's.

And it can be so difficult for athletes because that pain is real.

Like, it.

It truthfully hurts.

But I had to go back to, like, this is bad book.

This is bad book.

Like, physically, I am a hundred percent capable of doing this immediately.

When I stop the interval, I'm fine.

And so, I mean, finished out the workout.

Yeah, it was painful, didn't feel good, but I got off the bike a hundred percent okay.

And the only way that I can explain that is that was, you know, bad book pattern and just the brain saying, like, wow, this is, you know, a really hard effort.

This is exactly where you would be in the most pain in the last couple years.

And so the brain just goes back to, like, threshold intervals on the bike Tuesday morning.

Like, this hurts.

And it's like, it doesn't anymore.

But it just is.

It's fascinating to me.

And so, I mean, knowing that is super empowering as an athlete.

I know that without that knowledge, I totally would have shut that down and probably not, you know, tried threshold intervals for another month.

I would have been like, oh, no, it's too painful.

I can't do it.

Even with, you know, those other system Checks.

But having that knowledge of, like, okay, what is the brain's influence in this workout right now?

And what patterns have I just, you know, kind of resorted back to in this session was very empowering for me to be able to, like, move on with the workout progression.

So both of you have mentioned, as an athlete is getting back into training.

Elizabeth, for you personally, BJ4 athletes you've worked with just being on the lookout for any red flags, you know, anything you might be feeling as you're getting back into the training, that might be a red flag.

They're like, up, up.

Maybe the check engine light isn't fully off or maybe so.

So just before we move on past, you know, kind of this talk of getting back into the training, okay, what.

What are some examples of a red flag we should be on the lookout for?

Because I, I don't want somebody feeling something in a.

In a session and being like, oh, that was just a bad book thing.

I'm probably fine.

But then having the same flag, a couple workouts in a row, and not recognizing as a flag.

Cause we didn't get into specifics here.

So, Elizabeth, can you just kind of share some of the red flags that you're on the lookout for in your own body when you're coming back to training, and then, bj, if you kind of fill in any gaps of things, maybe she doesn't cover that.

You would tell an athlete to be on the lookout for when we're out in those sessions getting back at it.

Elizabeth?

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Um, I mean, I, I do want to start with sharp.

You know, we're increasing pain during exercise.

And that's part of the reason, even going back to, you know, the example that I gave, that I stopped the interval to kind of reassess what was going on.

Because we do want to make sure that, you know, we are looking toward those pain cues.

And so that.

That is still a red flag.

We still need to monitor that.

We need to take that seriously.

We need to figure out what's so sharper.

Increasing pain.

Swelling or like the area is really warm where the injury site was is another, you know, thing to monitor.

You know, if there's joint instability, you just feel like that, that part of the body or that structure is unstable or super weak, you know, kind of decreased performance in the, you know, specific area that we're.

We're looking at because of an injury.

Um, and then as I kind of went back to earlier, like, even if there's not pain, there's not proper technique.

That would be a red flag for me as well, working with an athlete.

And then that night pain or persistent soreness kind of, you know, going into how's the pain level a few hours later, how does it feel the next morning as well?

So those are kind of the main red flags that I know.

I've got my personal checklist.

And yeah, anytime I'm working with an athlete, I those are kind of the six things.

It's like, all right, let's talk through these.

What do we feel?

B.J.

anything that she's missing that you would tell somebody to be on the lookout for as they're returning back?

Yeah, that's great.

And one of the big obvious ones that you mentioned is the chemical inflammation, like the swelling.

Those are kind of the no brainers obvious, like your body is responding adversely.

You can see that physically feel that.

But one of the best indicators we have is human movement.

And I always say this, but like if somebody's coming in and I'm asking them how they feel and they just say, yeah, I feel great.

I'm like, okay, don't just tell me with your mouth, show me with your movement, show me with your body.

You have to back that up by showing me fundamental patterns of movement that aren't breaking down and movements that we knew you had before.

So as you're returning back to training, we can tell easily, I can tell without you saying a word if your movement is getting worse.

And we're talking about basic fundamental movement of squatting, stepping, lunging, balancing, twisting, turning.

I mean things that are fundamentally, it's not riding a bike necessarily, if those things are changing and they were good before, then we can say that you're running a risk of your body is changing, you're compensating.

Something is not going the way we want it to.

You're losing that fundamental capacity.

And I think that the difficult thing, especially with triathletes and some of the best athletes I've worked with are the most challenging in this area because athletic individuals are very good at finding a way, their bodies are very good at finding a way around the injury.

And what happens is over time that leads to dysfunction and can break down other areas.

So maybe you don't feel pain, maybe you don't feel like you're in the bad book category, but your body is showing us, if we were looking at your basic movement, that you are compensating in a certain way.

And those are the things we have to steer clear of any compensations that we can see.

So again, not just using a pain rating scale, but using movement, basic movement, as an indicator that if things hurt again, you don't have a fitness issue.

It's not like, oh, I guess you just need to get back in shape at that point.

It's no, there's still potentially a health issue here or a medical issue that needs to be addressed.

If you feel like a wonky donkey, go sit down, grab a sweet tea, watch some tv.

You shouldn't be training today.

That's, that's what I'm.

BJ Something I'm curious about, and I know a lot of athletes are curious about, is how does Tridot as a, as a training system handle an athlete being out for a break and then coming back from injury?

Obviously, we know it's monitoring our training.

We know that if we're not training, there's no training data going to try dot and that means something to try out.

It's saying, it's picking up on the fact that you're not doing these sessions because you've been out.

So as somebody returns to training on try it out, what are they going to see in the platform and how does the platform handle an absence for a while?

Yeah.

And so I've had the privilege of working behind the scenes with a lot of the engineers and data scientists working with Tridot.

So I've been able to see this and witness what things are, what things are doing firsthand.

And you know, Tridot has an intelligence engine, the Fit Logic intelligence engine, that really optimizes an athlete's training program.

Like you said, Andrew, based on what data the system is seeing or not seeing.

So whether the athlete is executing sessions or not executing sessions, tride out is considering that.

So what it will do is actually take this training stress profile of the athlete that considers the athlete's age, their gender, their genetics, basically how much stress can that athlete take?

And then as the athlete misses sessions, it will start to adjust session intensity, duration, overall weekly volume, to consider that, to make sure that if the athlete's missing significant time that it kind of meets them where they're at as they return.

So it's such a great tool to be able to have that from a programming and a training standpoint that you don't have to guess about that intensity, the intensity is going to be there.

And then based on how you execute those sessions continues to drive the system.

So it's a fascinating thing.

And again, it's not one size fits all.

It's individualized based on that individual's training stress profile.

When we're returning the injury, right?

We are returning from injury.

We got our swim, bike, run training.

A lot of triathletes just in, in their rhythm, do some strength stuff, probably do some stretching, mobility stuff, stability stuff.

Just talk to us like is when we're coming back from an injury, should we put any extra emphasis or extra focus, extra time towards any certain modality to help support our return from injury or should we kind of just ease back into all of it at a pretty equal rate and, and you know, it wouldn't make that much of a difference to do extra strength or extra this or extra that.

Does that make sense?

You get what I'm kind of getting at.

Should we kind of spend some extra time on, on any one thing to help support the return to training?

Yeah, it's a great question.

I think the tendency of most athletes, especially triathletes, is always, they're always looking for what can I do more?

Like where can I add more here or there?

And my answer here is honestly, for most individuals it's not what you do, it's what you don't do.

Okay, interesting.

So to be quite honest, with a lot of athletes I've worked with, and especially in the triathlete world, I've seen this a lot.

Sometimes an injury has been the best blessing in disguise for that athlete because it's taken them off of some of their training or all of their training and it's allowed them to focus on things that they can do, they should be focused on, that they're not taking the time to do because they're trying to add so many different things to their swim, bike and run training.

Or again, look, always looking for the one more thing.

But the things that I've found that are critical in this path back are, and sometimes again you have to pull yourself off of a lot of training to get these things checked off.

But it's, it's spending the time to focus on things that we consider domains of movement, health or some might call wellness, where we talk about breathing, we talk about sleep, we talk about nutrition.

You kind of mentioned it, Andrew, talking about fundamental mobility and stability work, where a lot of people would consider that specific strength training, stretching maybe that they don't normally take the time to do.

You know, behavioral health, like Elizabeth pointed this out too, like how do you handle all maybe the non physical stressors in your life, work relationships, things that are affecting you psychologically in your comeback from injury.

Like these are things that sometimes we have to stop and not do something else in order to focus on some of these things that we probably should be doing.

But again, my disclaimer for most athletes is honestly, it's likely not what you're doing or what you're trying to achieve.

It's likely what you're not doing or what you should not be doing.

So I think that's one of the things to think about injury as an opportunity.

It's an opportunity to maybe step back and focus on some of these other things, these movement health domains that you maybe weren't really spending much time addressing.

Yeah, we're, we're getting close to the end of our, our time today and so I almost skipped that question.

I'm glad I didn't because that feels like such an important warning reminder to, I think it's so easy for us to, oh man, we haven't been swimming, biking and running.

We haven't been doing these things that we're used to being able to do.

We want to get back at it.

We want to get back at it the right way.

And so we can overcompensate, right, by walking 10k per day because that's what we're allowed to do.

And, and so, yeah, so thanks for that reminder.

BJ right there.

And Elizabeth, I remember specifically when you did break your hand, you rolled into a couple staff functions and something like three times a day you would pull out this red light therapy hand scanner device that was not supposed to be, but potentially going to help your bones heal a little bit faster because that's the way you roll when it comes back to getting back at it from injury.

And so I'll throw this question to you and then bj, please fill in any gaps along the way.

But that's an extreme example.

But there, there's things like braces, there's KT tape, there's hot and cold lotion.

Like BJ said, vitamin I, ibuprofen.

Are, are, can these be helpful tools just kind of support our body as we get back into training or are they kind of crutches that are like, you know, probably helping us skirt by some sort of imbalance and we maybe shouldn't use them?

What, what, what are, are your thoughts and then bj, your, your thought thoughts as well on using these kind of aids to support our body as we're getting back to training?

My take is that these items can certainly help like manage some of the symptoms.

They can provide support, they can increase an athlete's confidence as they start to return to training.

But they're certainly complimentary tools, so they should be Used alongside like a proper rehab program that really focuses on restoring strength, flexibility, function.

And, and as you said Andrew, I mean they can become a crutch.

And so over reliance or like improper use of those items can be counterproductive.

Like we don't want to get into it being vitamin I where we take it every single day.

Like, you know, that could be something that maybe helps you get through one session in, you know, a three month period, but that's not something that we want to be constant or like constantly relying on.

And so I'd say, you know, always consider the advice from the health care professionals, a physiotherapist regarding, like the appropriate use of things like a brace or KT tape or like hot and cold therapy because they, they can help especially in those initial stages of recovery.

And I think that's where I would also put an emphasis here is that like in those initial stages of recovery, a little bit of extra support or you know, some hot and cold therapy that might be appropriate for reducing inflammation or you know, a heat therapy that supports blood flow or helps kind of warm the muscles up prior to training, I think that's absolutely appropriate.

But if you find yourself constantly like relying on those further and further from the actual injury in your return, then we really need to think about if that's become a crutch and if there's an over reliance on those things versus addressing the root cause and the issue.

Yeah, if you need a knee brace to go for a run three months after a knee injury, you probably didn't get your knee check, check.

Engine lights all the way cleared.

BJ, anything to add there?

Or EJ crush that one pretty well.

Yeah, 100%.

She's spot on.

And just an anecdote like I lived this in my college basketball career.

I had ankle injuries early in my career.

And then from that day on, early, you know, throughout my career, I was basically taping both ankles prophylactively every practice, every game for the rest of my career.

And I, I know for a fact it made my ankles weaker as a result.

Because if to a certain point, after you've gotten through like what EJ said, with the healing phase, it can start to facilitate a dependence and actually inhibit and produce higher injury risk in the future.

So there, there's like, if you think it's helping early on, go for it for sure.

But down the road, if you still are relying on that in order to just walk or run or do those things, like you could argue you may have created a compensation and it would be better for you to get out of that so you can continue to do that in the future.

All right.

Loads of good information on this conversation.

I thoroughly enjoyed our time talking about, about this and I know myself well enough to know there's probably going to be a time in the mid to far future where I will need this converse to revisit this conversation and remind myself of these principles.

Hopefully our audience experiences a happy and healthy training season, whatever season you're in.

But when you do have an injury, I hope the information you heard here today is very helpful to getting you back into the training safely and effectively.

But before we go, Elizabeth, you talked so astutely earlier about the mental side of this and that's very real.

There's a mental component to coming back from injury, experiencing an injury or surgery, whatever.

So just to close out our main set, like 30 seconds from BJ.

30 seconds from, from EJ.

What encouragement do you have for an athlete listening today who is trying to navigate this and is, is feeling any of the emotions that can come alongside of coming back from injury?

What would you say just to encourage them wherever they are in their journey today, doing this?

Dr. B.J.

Yeah.

Number one, and this is what I would tell every patient is you matter and you have what it takes.

I've seen, and I sound old now, but I've been in the clinic now for almost over two decades and I've seen so many athletes come back from so many different things that everyone else would have written them off with because, you know, the human body is amazingly resilient and capable of so much more than we're, we can even understand.

So I would want every athlete to understand that you're not alone.

There's a lot of people that are going through injuries like these things you're experiencing, but you have what it takes to get over it.

I've, I've seen so many things turn around for people, even if they think they're, they're written off.

Don't lose heart.

Man.

That's, that's tough to follow.

I, I mean, I just want to say like, ditto.

Yeah, that's great.

One of the things I've always reminded myself is like, this too shall pass.

I, I mean, I have to say that over and over that this is, this is a temporary setback.

And like BJ said, you know, you have the tools and your body is adaptable.

It's going to come through this.

Just a couple things that I, I tell athletes that I work with too is like accept and acknowledge the Emotions, especially initially, like it is absolutely okay to feel frustrated and sad and even angry and you know, allow yourself to process through those emotions and then as you do like stay connected as you can in the sport.

I mean social connections are going to be very important to maintain like a healthy well being and then you know, seek professional help if that would be appropriate as well.

I've consulted with a sports psychologist and a counselor that's been very skilled in injury recovery support and so professional guidance is something that might be appropriate at a time.

And addressing your mental health alongside your physical health is going to be important for you returning strong and being able to compete in the sport that you love.

For our cool down question today we have a question from an audience member like we always do.

And today's question comes from Bob.

And Bob wants to know, I'm curious about the 1 to 10 nutrition rating we are supposed to give ourselves when starting a Try Dot account.

Is that a question of how healthy we eat or is it about caloric surplus versus deficit or something else and how does it impact the sessions?

Tridot gives us very good question from Bob and bj.

Like you said, you work very closely with the software development team.

So I was, I was hopeful you would have some insight here.

Talk to us about this.

What's this 1 to 10 nutrition rating that we all gave ourselves when we were onboarding with Tridot?

Yeah, great question.

I mean as you know as those try that users know that as you're setting up your account you're kind of filling out different questions, answers to different questions that help establish your training profile.

You know there's questions in there about life stress and your sleep quality and those are significant factors that help make up your, your training stress profile.

As we consider age, gender, genetics, all these different variables.

But the nutrition rating is interesting in, in that something that we're looking at with our data science team and, and it's just simply a subjective rating of where do you feel like your, the quality of your nutrition is.

So it's, it's kind of again subjective meaning that it's, it's taking into consideration like how you would rank your nutrition from not just a quality like how clean you feel like you eat, but quantity.

Are you getting the right amount of calories, enough calories.

And so it's really how you would rate yourself.

And as we look at our system and the data we get in over time, this will likely be something we'll start to incorporate with future training optimization as well.

But it's right now just something we track.

So it's interesting data.

Yeah, no, very interesting.

I remember filling out that number myself and I think I gave myself a seven or an eight.

You know, my wife and I, we, our meals are generally pretty healthy.

We like, you know, fruits and veggies and grains and our meals are usually pretty solid.

What gets me is the snacks.

I can certainly, you know, grab.

Grab a bag of pretzels and have too many snacks a little too often.

EJ, is this a 10 for you?

Are you a 10 on the tried out nutrition rating?

No.

You know, Andrew, and I'm, I'm gonna shift some of this blame over to you.

You're the one that introduced me to crumbl cookies.

So, yeah, no, like I would say day to day, really great.

But I love dessert.

Love dessert.

So, yep, that, that's always gonna be a little bit of my downfall.

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