[00:00:00] Hannah: Hello and welcome back to the awfully quiet podcast. I am thrilled to bring you this interview today. It's been a long time in the making ever since I first dreamed up this show. Really. It feels surreal to see this conversation go from a vision on my mood board to reality. And I am still buzzing with excitement.

Today's guest. Is Melody Wilding, who I truly consider a trailblazer in the introvert career space, but calling her just that doesn't do her justice. Melody is the best selling author of Trust Yourself, Stop Overthinking and Channel Your Emotions for Success at Work. She was named one of Business Insider's Most Innovative Coaches for her groundbreaking work On sensitive strivers and her clients include top leaders at fortune 500 companies like Google, Amazon, and JP Morgan.

She's been featured in the New York times and the wall street journal and regularly contributes to Harvard business review fast company psychology today and Forbes Plus She's a licensed social worker, has a master's from Columbia University, and teaches human behavior at Hunter College. So yes, I was a little starstruck sitting down with Melody today, and I promise this episode does not disappoint.

We dive deep into navigating life as both an introvert, And the high achiever and Melody shares some sneak peeks into her new book, managing up plus a ton of practical introvert friendly tools for advocating for yourself at work. We talk about everything from setting boundaries and becoming more visible to networking and leaning into opportunities in a way that feels authentic and natural to you.

It's a conversation I know I'll be revisiting for weeks to come. And I'm excited for you to hear it. So without further ado, here is Melody Wilding. Melody, thank you so much for joining me today and welcome to the Awfully Quiet Podcast.

[00:02:20] Melody: I'm thrilled to be here with you. Thank you.

[00:02:22] Hannah: I'm just, said this, I I'm so excited. I think you're the perfect match for the Awfully Quiet Podcast and someone I've been really eager to have join me. where I want to start is with a bit of a personal question and to help ground ourselves into. What it means to be quieter and more sensitive.

what I want to know from you is what do you think is a quiet strength of yours that you consider as an advantage, something that has given you a benefit, maybe a bit of an edge when it comes to your career and your life.

[00:02:52] Melody: What a great question. I would say my intuition and ability to read people. So, I think being able to pick up on the emotional undercurrents that are happening and, you know, sense if someone is feeling a little off or if there's Tension and being able to navigate that. I think it's definitely helped me in my career as, as a coach and an author to really get in people's heads and understand what are their biggest challenges and what do they want the most.

but also day to day, it's being able to read the room and pick up on the signals has been really beneficial.

[00:03:33] Hannah: Yeah, I feel that intuition is such a big one that we don't talk about often enough. just in terms of like a, a leadership skill, a skill that also helps you in your career. It's, you know, as you say, it's not just in your personal life to pick up on cues, but it's also in business and corporate. yeah, I love that.

[00:03:54] Melody: Yeah, 100%. I think especially, like you were saying in corporate, there's a huge bias towards. Theta and intuition is a form of data. If we think about it from more of a scientific perspective, intuition is the culmination. It's like your database of all of your experiences and you're able to extract patterns and themes and make conclusions based on that.

You're just doing it very, very rapidly. And so I think the key with making intuition a strength in the workplace is, is being able to back up. My instinct is this, and here's why, because in the past we've seen this or on this last project, why prove to be true. So it's not just, I feel this way, therefore we should do it, but it's being able to, to back it up with some of that evidence from your experience.

[00:04:50] Hannah: Yeah, I love that. It makes it more tangible and, credible as well. Love it.

[00:04:56] Melody: Exactly.

[00:04:57] Hannah: now where I want to start is, in your book, Trust Yourself, which I love. and I've just refreshed last week. you talk about the power of being a sensitive high achiever, or as you call your audience, sensitive strivers.

I really relate with that because I always considered myself introverted, calmer, quieter than others, but at the same time. really, really ambitious. And I often felt like these two traits were at odds with each other. But I love that you're talking about this in your book. And I feel so heard and feel like this really resonates with me.

what I want to know from you and what I'm curious to hear about is how this combination has helped you in your career journey. How do you feel? It just kind of fits together as opposed to like being at odds with each other.

[00:05:47] Melody: Yeah, I think it's I like to think of both high sensitivity and. Drive as tools, but they are they are neutral in and of themselves. I know there's a lot. Certainly. I believe sensitivity itself can be a superpower and a strength, but it all comes down to how we use it and how we leverage it because.

Before I realized I was, I was sensitive, it felt like it was running away with me because I would blame myself. I would shame myself for reacting certain ways or feeling certain ways or overthinking something. and with my drive, It was always like, why, why can't I just be satisfied? Why do I always have to do more?

Try to help more. It just kind of exist and be. And so I think coming to that perspective of these are neutral things, it is. It is up to me and I have agency and choice around how I choose to use them. I think that's been a huge shift I've had to navigate.

[00:06:56] Hannah: really like that. I have often, like, I've never really seen them as neutral. I have always colored them with like, oh, this is a bad thing about myself. Like, this, I really resonate with the ambition being a bad thing to a point because it can come off as something that's just a little bit too cool.

Transcribed You know, wanting too much and never really being satisfied. But I like the sentiment of like, you are the, the one who like, you know, switches the dial on like, how much do you want, for that to come out. I really like that. What do you, in terms of sensitivity in general, what do you think are some of the misconceptions, some of the things that people get wrong about.

Sensitivity, maybe especially in the workplace.

[00:07:39] Melody: Oh, yes, I think especially, I mean, we spend 70, 80 percent of our time at work. And so, a lot of how we're having to confront our sensitivity, I think happens in our professional lives. And, you know, I think the biggest misconception is throwing around the term, You're being too sensitive or you're taking things too personally as a dig at people, which suggests that being sensitive equals being fragile or unstable.

And that couldn't be further from the truth because sensitivity means that you are processing, you're taking in more information and you're processing more deeply. It, it's really just. Equates to having a more active nervous system and again there can be good sides there can be drawbacks with that but as someone who is sensitive that depth of processing doesn't mean that you can't handle difficulties or that you're completely unhinged or it doesn't automatically equate to you get bad feedback and you cry that that's not I think people think sensitive and that's what we hear.

So, yes, we may have stronger initial reactions to situations, but we also have an amazing capability to emotionally regulate, to, navigate different complexities and relationships more skillfully because we can, we can sense other people's emotions. And so I think it's the idea that. Sensitive equals emotionally fragile or unhinged and because of that, we can't handle pressure or stress.

And what really gets me worked up is when I hear sensitive people say this to themselves and gaslight themselves to say, well, because I'm a sensitive striver, I'm never going to get to executive leadership. I just, I wouldn't be able to handle that because I'm so sensitive. And so to everyone listening, I want to say, please, please do not use that label against yourself because it doesn't, again, it's, it's a attribute of your personality and the way you're wired, but it doesn't have to be a hindrance.

It's actually self knowledge. And when you have that self knowledge, okay, yes, you may have to approach high stress situations differently. You may need more time to prepare or decompress. But once you know that you can build that into the way you manage yourself and approach situations doesn't mean you have to avoid them altogether.

[00:10:22] Hannah: Yeah. I have goosebumps because I feel like this is so spot on and it's also where this podcast comes from with like a label, like you're being awfully quiet and that is very much the same. And I often feel like as introverts, that label often comes from within, Oh, I am introverted. You know, I can't go for these positions, or therefore, I'm just kind of leaning back and see what happens.

And, I find that super, super meaningful what you say about, you know, there's so much power in the self talk and how we talk about our own abilities. And therefore. where I'd like to go is like that superpower within sensitivity. And I know that you work with incredible leaders and in corporate, on all sorts of levels.

So what I want to know is what are some of the, you know, some of the leadership skills that sensitive people bring to the table that are super power skills that We really need in, in, you know, in business and corporate in the future that conventional leaders may not have.

[00:11:24] Melody: Yeah, and I think a helpful place to ground this is, you know, we're, we're living through the age of AI. Everything is becoming automated. And, the, the robots are taking over in some, some respects, but I say that facetiously, but when you look at future of jobs reports. It's very clear that in the next 5, 10 years, the skills that are going to be most valuable are what AI and computers can't replicate, which is creative thinking, creative analytical thinking, our cognitive, Capacity as humans, but also those, those relational, what, you know, sometimes it's called soft skills, but things like influence and persuasion and, empathy, you know, we hear a lot about empathy.

And so I think that comes back to actually, when you know how to leverage your sensitivity and direct it in the right ways, it can be, it can be the competitive advantage that sets you apart. And one of the ways I see that happen a lot is Sensitive strivers tend to be very natural synthesizers. And because we're taking in more information, we're processing that more deeply.

And by that, I mean, there have been MRI studies that show that people that rate higher on skills of sensitivity also show higher brain activity, their brain lights up more in areas that are related to problem solving and just complex decision making. And so we're, we're scanning and sensing more of the subtleties, but we're also processing that more deeply.

So we're the ones that may make very novel connections between two parts of the business that other people have not seen before. We're connecting the dots more quickly. We're integrating client feedback, internal data. We may not, especially if we're an introverted, sensitive striver, we may not be the one just constantly shooting our hand up.

But when we do speak up, we ask, Very insightful questions. That's one of the top pieces when I review people's 360 surveys or their performance reviews, that ability to ask really pointed but thoughtful questions that get other people to think pause, reconsider their assumptions is one of the top things I see on people's performance reviews.

And that's really valued because as sensitive people, we like to think before we act. And so we like to deliberate. Before we just run into a situation and that's why sensitivity has been a trait that has persisted for eons is because it's helpful to have a certain amount of people that are not just rushing headfirst into danger.

So, that tendency to pause to think before making a decision means we can assess risk. We can see opportunities and bring those up maybe before other people do. So that's one thing I see is a huge, huge. Advantage that sensitive strivers bring. I

[00:14:37] Hannah: Yeah, what I'm just always asking myself is why is this not more widely accepted? Why is this not as sexy a skill as some of the more, some of the louder, some of the more outspoken skills? And I often think, you know, obviously there's a lot that needs to change at the corporate level when it comes to perceiving some of these skills and just kind of driving more diversity also from a personality perspective.

Then. Obviously also there is a job to be done with this community and like with the audience to like step up and make sure that Some of these skills and, inherent traits are being positioned in the way that they come across as that superpower that, that it is. Where do you think lies the truth? Is it somewhere in the middle of like, you know, we need to just kind of like make sure that we position ourselves as, you know, the superpower beings that we are?

Or is it just the corporate world that also needs to shift a little bit in terms of the perception? Thank you

[00:15:39] Melody: think it's a both and I think it's a both and that, both of those things are true and a couple of things. I think we can change faster than the corporate machine around us. Unfortunately, it just takes a lot, a lot of time to turn the cultural or societal ship, so to speak, but also for our own sakes, if we as sensitive people can move from a place of.

Of really beating ourselves up and feeling like, oh, I have to hide this. I shouldn't be this way. Why is everybody else so much, you know, they can, they speak up so much more, they work so much faster than I do. Like, also for our own sakes, wouldn't it be great to get out of that sort of self recrimination into more of a, Hey, I have a lot to offer.

And of course, like anyone, I have things I want to improve or get better at, but I I also see how this can how I can position this as a value add to my employer, my team, my company as a whole. Like, that is just such a more pleasant, emotional and mental place to be. So, I think it's a both and that we can change ourselves faster and there's a personal benefit that comes from that.

But also, I, I really do think that we have to play the game in a way to change the game. And when more sensitive people or any sort of diversity, like you were saying, sensitivity would be a form of cognitive diversity, but there's lots of aspects of diversity. And when we have more diverse people in seats of power and influence.

That's when we can see things change. And so I just, I say that for anyone who's kind of counting themselves out from more responsibility or, you know, a bigger title at the organization. I'm not saying you, you have to strive for that. Not at all. But if you want that, also think about the impact you could have once you're there and the contribution you could make to changing some of these perceptions.

[00:17:44] Hannah: yeah, a hundred percent. I love that. so true. I think, and another thing that just kind of, you know, another element of the book that you've written, is all about trusting yourself and just kind of, you know, leaning into what you have to offer. And, I find that I often struggle with that. And I know that a lot of other sensitive strivers struggle with that concept of.

Letting go and loosening the grip and I, whenever I really wanted something in my life, I, I felt like I held on to it really, really hard and made sure from start to finish that I see it through all the way and I'm even speaking about, I get tense, like, what I'm, I guess where I'm trying to go is how do we let go of some of that?

And how do we truly trust ourselves? Do you have an example of ever doing this in your own life where you've had to let go and where you've had to trust yourself in order to achieve something? Yeah.

[00:18:45] Melody: what we most need to learn. So, you know, I'm, I'm the, the product of my own experiences and, yeah, you know, you were, you were sort of alluding to, being very conscientious and I think that's another asset as sensitive people that we bring to the table. We're very caring. We're very dedicated.

We also feel in big ways, and we, we think a lot and deeply and when those two things come together, they can get in our way. And certainly that was, was my story. And in the beginning of the book, I talk about how, you know, I had what I would call an honor roll hangover where I was. Very attached to get the good grades, land the prestigious job, just get an a plus gold star in everything you do, please, everyone else around you.

And, you know, that really did literally push me to not the brink of burnout, but deep into a burnout and. That was really my wake up call of something needs to change here and I need to reevaluate how I'm approaching myself and my work and also how I had just let certain patterns get the better of me.

that idea, I mentioned that idea of like always more, always, always taking on more things, saying yes to more things, pushing myself to aim higher and, and do more and, It just, it ran me into the ground and so, trusting myself in that aspect had to look like. Doing things that on paper may not have seemed like the right box to check next, but were things I had to do for myself.

And so I think a big one was, was leaving sort of the, you know, traditional corporate work path and starting my own business. And really, it was trusting myself in that this type of work, talking about these topics, coaching people was really. Something I couldn't stop myself from doing in my free time.

It was what I came back to, you know, reading about personal and professional development, and it was something I couldn't get away from. And I had to trust that, that nudge that was there and kind of leap before the net appeared. And I didn't really have a plan. I had some things going, but it was like, I will figure it out.

I trust in my. resourcefulness and my ability to figure it out. And to me, that is confidence. Confidence is not bravado. It's not showboating. it's not believing you can do everything, but it's having belief in your ability to figure it out or make the best of the situation regardless of what comes up and making promises and keeping them to yourself.

And that's been huge for me that if there is something I say that is important to me. It has become a non negotiable that that happens versus Oh, well, I'll just skip it this week, or I'll push this back, or I'll de prioritize this because someone else did it.or this other opportunity came up and so it's, it's been saying no and even more recently having to make decisions that not everyone is happy with or there's not consensus on, but I know it's what's right for me.

It's what's right for my business in the longterm. And that's hard because you, you have to deal with or you have to wrestle with what other people might think. And I've had to learn that trusting myself is a lot of it comes down to, I have to let other people have their own emotions and reactions and that is theirs.

And, I, I have to, once I don't focus on making the right decision, I focus on making the decision right, because we can never make, we never know if we're making the right decision. If you wait to keep doing that, you're just going to wait forever. You're but I, I focus on doing the best with the information I have and then making that decision.

Right.

[00:22:59] Hannah: Yeah. I love that. And it is such a big learning for anyone who, who is a high achiever and who is ambitious in terms of like, you know, not getting the recognition anymore from, from anyone externally or from, you know, collecting all the gold stars that are out there, but almost redefining what those gold stars are for you and, what it is that you want and, and trusting that.

You know, you have the capability to make it happen. I think that's beautiful. Now you're, touching on boundaries already, quite a bit. I want to shift slightly to your new book that's coming out at the beginning of the year, Managing Up. I already said before, I got a little bit of a sneak peek.

Into the book, which, which feels so special and so precious to me and, where I want to start is, why managing up how, what drew you into managing up? And why do you think it is such an important topic for your sensitive strivers audience? Yeah.

[00:23:58] Melody: interesting because when I was running my coaching programs, what I started to notice is that every question that was coming up was in some way related to managing up, dealing with people in authority or more dominant personalities. And what I also noticed is that the sensitive strivers. In our programs were blaming themselves were saying, Oh, I'm just I'm such an overthinker or I just can't stop people pleasing when in fact, it really wasn't.

They were seeing this as as character faults they had to solve. Versus a skillset gap. And that's what became very clear to me is that they were attributing this to, you know, inner, inner problems that they needed to solve for themselves when in fact it was, they needed to learn a skillset around managing up around getting in their boss's head, advocating for what they needed with, with their manager, with other higher ups, with being to being able to communicate with the different personalities that may not think before they act, may act before they think.

And, you know, so that, that's really where it came from was filling this gap for my clients and helping them depersonalize the struggles that they were facing as not, not, not that they are broken or they are weak. This is just a skill set. No one has ever taught you because I think, especially as sensitive people.

We, we come in with this hard worker mentality of just keep your head down, do a good job. You'll be rewarded for it.

[00:25:42] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:25:43] Melody: Or because we're so sensitive, I hear so many people say, well, I don't want to play politics. I just want to do good work. I just want to do my job and enjoy it. I don't want to play politics.

And what I would say to that is that work is about people, which means that you need to You need to manage the relationships around you just as much as you manage the actual tasks and the work and the good news is that, you know, as someone who's more sensitive, you do have a leg up in in this because you are more emotionally in tune.

And we, we can talk about that in a second. but it was really. It really came from this place of noticing that sensitive people had trouble dealing with people in authority. They didn't feel like they could hold their own or stand up for themselves or communicate without rambling or, or overthinking it.

And so I really wanted to give a handbook for that. because what I also noticed is that there was a real gap out there in terms of talking about managing up that we often think of it as. Pleasing your boss, you know, sucking up to your boss and that is not at all what it is. It's managing up is really about, yes, managing the relationships with your boss and other people in positions of power, but it's really more about you.

It's really more about you being heard and being able to communicate in a way that gets you more of what you want. That gets you your ideas and your opinions heard that. Allows you to set boundaries in a way they're actually respected and that you don't just back down and shrink back from. So that's where all this came from was trying to give people more of a, really step by step tactical manual for that.

[00:27:37] Hannah: I was one of these people who were like, well, managing up, you know, I can, I can manage up. I'm fine. But, what I noticed is that it came very easily to me whenever I work with someone who I looked up to, who I considered a great boss, a great leader. and then. I was, that relationship always worked super, super well.

Now, where I struggled was whenever that wasn't the case, and you know, that happens in a career. Where you report into somebody who you just don't feel is that great a leader. And then, I was really reluctant to please them or to, you know, to just kind of, Make their world easier. If I may say so. So, that really helps me understand, you know, why managing up is important is it's not just to please the other person.

It's to make sure that you build the relationship in a way that is going to be helpful moving forward. And I think that we really need to underline this here for the audiences that. so much. It's not just about our work performance. It's not just about our output. This is, it's a lot to do with relationships and with dealing with other people in order to be successful and in order to, to be seen and considered.

for the positions that you really want to, you know, achieve. So, that's something that really flipped for me and that I found really, really meaningful when it comes to managing up. Now you said that you've built manual and it really is a manual. There's like 10 conversations in there that are, yeah, that are super, relevant, incredibly helpful to like navigate.

you know, what's, you know, sooner or later going to happen in your career. And, there's one around boundaries that you already mentioned here and there. And this is one that I find super helpful, especially as you come from like the early stages of your career into like wanting to progress your career.

And it feels like the sucking up the people pleasing. It works for quite a while in a corporate career. It helps you get ahead. It helps you be considered as somebody who does a good job, who does it all, who says yes all the time. I've had that. It's worked perfectly well for me.but there is a point in your career where, where it doesn't anymore and where, where it harms you or it costs you.

To do that. So how, how do you manage that transition of like being the person who does it all to setting some boundaries to saying no here and there and to potentially and to still be seen as somebody who is a high performer and somebody who still does want to get ahead.

[00:30:19] Melody: Yeah. You hit the nail on the head that that's a real, that's a tough identity shift to make from doer executor to maybe more strategist enabler. And for many of us as sensitive people, we're much more comfortable in the doer. Role, which can mean that you get too much thrust on your plate. And often what I see is that we will stuff that down.

We'll stuff that down, which is like, okay, just deal with it. Keep keep expanding our plate until we hit a breaking point and we explode or we emotionally overreact. Thanks. Thanks. Right. And then you don't feel good about that. You blame yourself for, oh, my gosh, see, I don't know how to manage my emotions when, in fact, it just comes down to having a boundaries conversation to, like, you were saying.

And so I want to be clear that you can't say no to everything. I think there's this idea out there that's like, yeah, set boundaries. You know, you're entitled to protect your time. Yes. And you are being paid for a certain job where things need to get done. So, you do need to, you do need to pick your battles and be selective about how often and to what you're saying no to, because there are certain things that may get dumped on your plate or certain meetings you get asked to go to that could actually be a really great opportunity for you to get exposure to a new team or a new project.

So weighing those things is important. But let's just go with the assumption that. You have figured out there's something you, you have to say no to, how do you go about doing it in a way that, you know, feels, feels true to you as someone who's maybe more, emotionally intelligent in the way they communicate and who doesn't want to burn bridges, right?

We don't want to upset the people around us. so the 1st place I always like to tell people to start is by asking questions. And this may sound obvious, but, certainly this is something I've had to undo for myself is just the. Automatic if someone asks you to do something, your responses. Yeah. Sure.

Sure. Because it's just, you can't tolerate the, the discomfort of, of not just immediately saying yes. So, instead of that sort of knee jerk acceptance, asking a question, like, is there a particular reason you thought of me for this assignment? And, do you, do you see this being a short term need or something that becomes a regular part of my role?

Can you help me understand the urgency behind this what's driving the deadline being this Friday, for example, or before we jump on a call. I want to make sure it's a good use of time for both of us. Would you mind sending over some of the key points you want to discuss first? Because I may be able to answer some of those via email.

So that's a way just to to pause to also put the onus back on the other person to justify Bye. Why are they asking you in the first place and, that can be helpful to just get more information to slow down the dynamic instead of just the automatic panic response of, yes, sure. I'll take care of it.

[00:33:34] Hannah: yeah, yeah. I, I know sure very well. I've often said, Sure, well like oh yeah, well I can probably. Just kind of do it real quick.

[00:33:44] Melody: Mm hmm.

[00:33:46] Hannah: but it's, it's, it, I really like, you know, kind of flipping it and, and asking questions to begin with, to understand more of like, and then I can already see the other person just kind of back off a little and like, well, truthfully, there is, there are potentially a couple of other people who could, who this could sit with or who could do this.

And I often think it's also about, you know, prioritization where I often feel. what, what I often stumble over is when I feel there's a lack of prioritization on the leadership level, and then it comes down to me and then I'm, I need to be the one to say no. And I often feel like, well, that's the leadership part of it.

That's, you know, you shouldn't even be coming with that, you know? so almost like it, it almost sometimes feels like you need to be the leader and it's also a great opportunity. To show, you know, that ownership and that leadership capability. And like, well, this is really something that we should be doing.

[00:34:42] Melody: Yeah. Well, and to your point, another one of my favorite strategies is I call it the trade off of, you may not be able to, to make a judgment call on whether, What you're asking to do what you're being asked to do should be a priority or not, but you can put it back on the person who's asking you to give that information.

So you might say, you know, I'm focused on getting this project done on the deadline. We agreed on adding this other project would impact that timeline. So how do you want to move forward? reprioritize that? So then at least the, the, the responsibility is in their hands, or you've raised to them at our last leadership meeting, we discussed that you wanted me to focus on X has that changed since then?

And what would you like me to slow down on to make space for this? So you're putting it, you're putting it back in their hands. And also, when you ask. In terms of managing up, I do like some of those binary questions of do you want this? Or do you want that? Because it's often easier for someone who is in leadership, who's moving very quickly, who has a lot of things they need to handle.

It saves them cognitive load. If you just ask a yes or no, this or that question versus kind of an open ended brainstorming where. It's easier for them to dismiss you and say, I don't have time for this. Just, I don't know, figure it out, make it work versus asking them something that's easier for them to respond to.

[00:36:15] Hannah: Yeah, yeah, I like that.another thing you mentioned is, is this kind of transition from being the doer to being an enabler. Now, that word really resonates with me. I'm like, oh, I can be an enabler. And I often feel like when, when people come to me for advice, for help, for questions. I really find myself thriving.

I love that. and I'm happy to spend time on doing something like this as opposed to, me sort of being like one puzzle piece of, you know, in, in the, in the supply chain of like, You know, this needs to get done, just kind of when can you get this over to me? So, how do we make that transition into like being the enabler into, doing more of what helps us thrive?

Yeah.

[00:37:06] Melody: this from the angle of some things I, or some pitfalls I commonly see sensitive strivers falling into the biggest one of those being over functioning, where we for better or worse tend to have over responsibility. Where again, that conscientiousness, that sense of dedication, huge strength, right?

We have high standards. We're, we're very loyal. We're very driven and dedicated to everything we do, but taken too far can turn into overfunctioning where you are stepping in, you're volunteering, you're fixing problems. It exhausts you and makes you resentful and the people around you never learn how to take responsibility for themselves.

So it creates this dynamic where other people can under function, which can be very, very frustrating. And so one, one major way you get out of that is moving to more of a coaching approach. And I don't, I don't say this just because I'm a coach, but coaching is really more about showing people how to do something versus doing it, doing it for them.

So let's say, you know, a colleague comes to, or let's take the example of. You know, your colleague has messed up that deliverable once again, instead of just saying, I'll fix it and I'll be the 1 to deliver it to senior leadership. You ask them, like, can you walk me through your thought process or the steps you followed on this?

Or can you can you help me understand, like, let let's work through this together. So I can show you my rationale of how I typically approach this. So next time you, you can execute this on your own and you don't, you don't need to meet, you don't have to have me being the, the bottleneck for this. So instead of just, yes, it takes a little more time.

And I understand that's not going to be possible for everything. Sometimes you have to make the executive decision that this is such high priority. That I need to be the one to step in here, but more times than not, just slowing down, asking people questions about, well, how would you approach this? Okay. I have to imagine you've encountered this type of challenge or this type of error before.

What have you done in the past? That's worked. Instead of just immediately being the one to provide the answer to do it for them, teach them how to fish.

[00:39:33] Hannah: It's quite a bit of a transition for anyone who is a high achiever and who considers a tick in the box, the ultimate, the ultimate goal on any given day. but I think this is something that really we can take away very tangibly in terms of like, just slow down, take the pace out of it. I know that in the workplace, you know, everything's always running on a tight schedule.

Timeline, isn't it? There's always deadlines around the corner and we try to be really, really efficient, but it's almost like taking the pace out and slowing down. That's ultimately going to help us move into that. enabler position rather than being the one doing it all.

[00:40:11] Melody: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's, it's an adjustment. This, this is true for boundary any type of boundary, whether it's saying no, whether it's moving from kind of the over functioner to enabler approach. And I mean, enabler in the best in the, in a positive sense.so. But when you start making changes, there's going to be an adjustment period for you and the people around you.

It's not going to feel good at first. You're going to feel uncomfortable. You're going to be worried about what people think. So expect that. Don't make it mean you're doing anything wrong. In fact, it's probably good discomfort. It means you're challenging yourself to change. So just don't take it as a sign to backtrack because, oh, no, this isn't working.

And the same goes for the people around you, they're probably accustomed to you being overly agreeable and overly involved. And so when you make changes, you may get pushback and that's okay. That's okay. That's normal as the, you know, the, the relational equilibrium is adjusting. Just see it through, be persistent, reiterate your, your perspective and things will adjust.

[00:41:27] Hannah: Yeah, I love that. I, you know, amen to that.now another thing that, I see introverts struggle with and that you also, mention in the book is, the whole concept of gaining visibility.and I feel like when it comes to introverts and it's potentially true for sensitive strivers as well, is that we often feel overlooked and underestimated in the workplace.

Like almost like, you know, the hard work goes unnoticed and it's just like, you know, we're performing, performing, performing, but we're not really visible or known for it. And I keep saying there is. you know, obviously there's a conventional way of going about it and, like, becoming more visible, and I feel like that's something that.

we're often being advised to do, but, I feel like we need more subtle, more introvert friendly ways of going about becoming more visible. Now, what do you think introverts should focus on? What are some of the tools that you recommend to, get a more of a good reputation in the corporate world to get recognized, to build that up and to gain more visibility?

[00:42:31] Melody: Yeah, yeah, so much of it, especially in the remote environment where communication is so siloed. speaking up on meetings is important. That is that is a main way you are going to have visibility, but that doesn't mean you have to be the 1 who's. Interrupting or who is just speaking people will always say to me.

Well, I don't I don't want to speak up if I don't have something of value to share. But what I would say to anyone who's saying that to themselves is that you may need to adjust. Your bar of what you consider valuable, because it doesn't always have to be this groundbreaking new idea that no one else has mentioned before.

It can be leveraging some of your sensitive introverted strengths of connecting the dots. Make a connection between what two of your coworkers said or what came up in another meeting. Oh, that reminds me of what we spoke about at the last strategy session. And I can see how that builds on what Jake said, for example.

So you can draw connections. You can build on other people's points. You can ask thoughtful questions like I was saying that by and far being the one who is asking thoughtful questions is the number one thing I see that that bosses and leaders value in sensitive people. So just let's lower the perfectionism a little and challenge yourself to speak up earlier on.

Because that's going to be important not to let your own fear and resistance builds longer. You wait, the more you're going to get in your own head and the longer or the more time that a lot of the ideas will be on the table and you'll talk yourself out of saying anything. Challenge yourself to speak up early on, get, get a little more comfortable with that so you can settle in and kind of nip that fear in the bud.

And then the last thing I'll say is also leverage asynchronous methods of communication. Because as we've talked about, when you're more sensitive, you think before you act. And so many times we're not as great on the spot or that that's not really our natural tendency is to just think on our feet and on the spot.

But you may be someone who is excellent at writing a, monthly milestone email that you're circulating to all of your different stakeholders or a really, elegant executive summary for the people up your chain of command. And there's also nothing wrong if it never fails that as soon as a meeting is over, it's like, Oh, I should have said that, you know, it comes to you afterwards.

Don't be afraid of the followup. That is one great way to stand up stand out because most people have just moved on to the next thing and whatever happened is out of their mind. But a great way to stand out is to follow up with someone and say, I digested what we talked about, or I reflected on that more or after our session today, another idea came to mind.

And that is a really great way to set yourself apart.

[00:45:37] Hannah: Yeah.I really like what you're saying about some of these superpowers come to life in meetings in terms of like being able to connect the dots, being able to like, you know, connect different perspectives and shaping a new idea and to let go of perfectionism and a lot of what feels obvious to us. Is not obvious for everyone else.

It's almost like, yes, lowering that expectation of has to be groundbreaking. Most of the time it probably is, but it's just not to us.

[00:46:09] Melody: Yes,

[00:46:09] Hannah: I really like that in terms of like, yeah, just kind of putting things out there, sharing them and yeah. Lowering the bar of like, what is worth, you know, speaking up about, and it's a lot of trial and error, I feel. Yeah.

[00:46:24] Melody: it is. It is. And it's important to get to know the other people who will be in these rooms with you. Because the more you can be operating from a sense of comfort and by comfort, I don't mean that you like them, they like you, but by comfort, I mean, you have a baseline on how they behave. Because what I find, where overthinking comes in, Is well, why does that executive look disengaged?

Or why did that person ask me a question? Do they not believe in my idea? Are they trying to challenge me? But when you've spent a little time with someone, you can get a sense of how they operate and put some of their actions more into context so that you don't overthink them or maybe they erroneously read into them.

Yeah.

[00:47:16] Hannah: Yeah. It goes back to that emotional intelligence that you referenced, which is, you know, crucial in managing up and which is crucial in, like, getting visible in the workplace is almost like reading the room, understanding the stakeholders that you're with. And to me, it always feels like that that's actually a very introvert friendly tool.

And it's something that. Maybe we even have a little bit of an advantage just because we kind of sense things and we just kind of, you know, we have that intuition.you know, with regards to gaining visibility, I think another thing that we're often being advised to do is networking. and I know that you also talk about networking in the book and in the realm of managing up.

Now, there are so many different places where we could go with networking, but, one thing that you mentioned is like to be very choiceful and selective of the people you do interact with and be very intentional with like. Who do you reach out to? And I think we've, we've all gotten the advice to like, you know, reach out to senior leadership, have coffee with them, but who do we have coffee with?

Who do we reach out to? Who are these people that, you know, are going to be really, you know, crucial, who we can build win win situations with and how do we find them? Yeah.

[00:48:37] Melody: know, this is, this is a harsh reality of the corporate world and just life in general is that, you know, I think as, as big hearted, caring people, we would love to be friendly with everyone, but unfortunately we just, we don't have the time and bandwidth for that. So we do have to be we do have to be selective and strategic now.

I'm not saying that, you know, you should discount people just because they don't have a position of power, but just being thoughtful about about who you spend your valuable time with. And so a couple of different groups I would recommend first and foremost is decision makers. That may be someone who is slightly more senior to you, but this could be your manager's peers.

It could be people in different departments that just have, you know, an outsized influence on a certain project. It could be key clients. It could be, a lot of my clients who work in more of a startup environment will network with the board members. Or or certain external partners that have a lot of.

Sway, so decision makers would be 1 group. The 2nd would be powerful peers again, colleagues in a different apartment department. You may just occasionally bump into. These are people who may be at the same level or 1 click up or below you, but. You need people in your corner who can lend you a hand or pinch hit for you when you need it.

And to that, I think there's also a lot to be said for having people behind the scenes that you are connected with, whether this has been true so many times, for my clients, having contacts in HR that, has really benefited them. Whether, you know, I've had many clients that have had to navigate letting someone go.

And it's great because they have a strong relationship with an HR business partner who is willing just to informally sit with them and walk them through how they can come out of it looking good and how they can do best by that person that they, they have to let go. so those types of people, the, the behind the scenes folks, whether it's it, it's admin, it's HR, it's facilities.

they can really be such useful people for insider knowledge and again, a favor when you need it.

[00:51:04] Hannah: Yeah. Oh, this is so true. I started my career in HR and I still draw from that experience, and from those relationships for sure. Yeah, and it's almost like you're building your own little team, right? Your own little, you know, career squad that's, you know, that that's going to help you and I often feel like there's a lot to be said about connections to be genuine and to like, reach out to people that you are.

genuinely interested in and that you have questions for because we want it to be meaningful. And yeah, that really helps.

[00:51:37] Melody: Yeah, absolutely. And going back to our conversation just a minute ago about kind of, I hate to say lowering the bar, but maybe adjusting your standard is a little bit of a better way to say it. I think a lot of people get very tripped up on how could I, how could I network with anyone? I don't, I don't have anything to offer.

I don't have anything to offer them. And please expand your thinking here, because just like you said. What what comes naturally to you, or seem simple to you, you readily disregard, but it could be. Really valuable to someone else, whether it's a resource, like a, a book recommendation article, a white paper.

I've had a lot of clients have success with.creating a kind of mini event that brings people together. Whether it's like. Internal roundtable discussion about A. I. we were talking about earlier and you invite, you know, several key people from different departments, but you are then sort of the super network or there.

Or being someone who's a bridge builder. So maybe you have two colleagues that it would be great to connect them with each other. And that's, those are all ways of adding value, as is just, you know, going a little bit above and beyond to surprise and delight someone with, I usually do that. Like people will send me, my clients will send me things for review and I'll film them a little video kind of walking through my feedback.

And. Just people are so bowled over with that because it's just a little bit of extra effort that people appreciate so much. Yeah.

[00:53:22] Hannah: I was just going to say, you know, as we wrap up, what's an actionable takeaway that the audience can take with them. But I feel like that's already it. It's like, You know, and it's also the benefit of saying no here and there and setting those boundaries because then you can so much more, spend so much more time on driving, you know, meaningful conversations on doing, going a little bit of an extra mile for, you know, reviewing something or helping somebody out, coaching somebody, enabling something in the organization that goes beyond what's expected and, you know, delighting others.

I, I really like that. That makes me feel really warm.

[00:54:01] Melody: And like you said, it's, it's all about balance. It's just going a little bit above and beyond without putting yourself out.

[00:54:08] Hannah: I love that. Melody, thank you so much for joining me today, for having this conversation. I'd love for you to just share where the audience can find you, where they can get your new book when it comes out. And yeah, thank you.

[00:54:22] Melody: Thank you so much for having me. It was so fun being with you and I'm glad we got a chance to finally do this. We had to put it off a little bit as I finished the second book, so I'm glad, glad to be here now. you can find me at melodywilding. com and you can preorder managing up how to get what you need from the people in charge, wherever books are sold.

[00:54:42] Hannah: I love that. I'll get my hand on a copy and then, yeah, we'll hope to have you back one day, Melody. This was amazing. Thank you so much.

[00:54:52] Melody: I would love that.