if you were going

to build a house in

Australia, Like, if you

had the products that

you had overseas in

Germany that you could

build here, like, how

would you build it?

Two ways.

I love CLT.

so I would maybe build

CLT a member on the

outside and wood fiber.

That would be

my number one.

Number one choice,

uh, roof would be

definitely a rafter

roof, nice and

really complicated.

Not because it needs

to be complicated

because I want it

to be complicated.

so it's a masterpiece.

So it would be

unnecessarily

complicated

to be honest.

, number two would

be okay if it would

be a start frame,

of course, prefab.

So even if I wouldn't

go to a prefab company,

I would just do it

in a shed by myself.

But the timber

construction is

getting wet is for me

an absolutely no go.

So.

Would be another

topic we can talk off.

But I would never ever

build with four by two

because in my opinion,

the toothpicks, so

the minimum I would

maybe goes with 60 to

140 millimeters fully

insulated with wood

fiber on the outside,

So, it's 60 mil

thick, by the

yes, 60 months thick

by 140 million,

all down for the

45 by 140, right?

But 60 by 140, like

tell me why you

would choose that.

Is that just so you

can sleep at nighttime?

no, it's just

about strength.

So you guys are

passion, passive

house builders,

and I'm pretty sure

you Both use like

European windows

or German windows,

double, triple glazed.

And you also use

the entry doors

from Germany.

And did you close

the, these doors one

time properly, and

then you have the

whole house shaking.

thickness of the timber

also has to do with

the swing resistance

of the building.

So that means kind of

the inner strength of

each single stud has

actually to do also

with the thickness

of the timber.

As I would do like

wood fiber 60 mil

on the outsides, you

actually firmly break

the whole structure.

So even if you add

on thickness of the

timber, I'm pretty

sure it wouldn't

have a big impact.

, can I ask you, right?

Obviously passive

house is a very

rigid building

standard, right?

And if we were

getting a building.

to passive house

standard with 140 by 45

frames and insulation.

Would you still do wood

fiber on the outside?

Oh, yeah.

Having wood fiber has

nothing to do, , like

most of the Proclamer

products, sorry I don't

have to mention it, but

they have nothing to

do with passive house.

So using principles,

and applying in a

passive house, and they

don't always have to

be, they don't have

to correlate each

other all the time.

So like having

wood fiber on the

outsides is because

you have thermal

mass on the outside.

I love the properties

of wood fiber because

you have high density,

you have high moisture

absorbance, which can

be wrong in the wrong.

Climate it's always

very important to

mention also, but it's

a natural product.

It's highly

variable permeable.

It's has some

bracing properties.

You could, if you

want to render

directly onto it,

it's natural products.

You don't have

any off gassing

of the material.

And specifically in

summer, it performs

well, if you would.

Insulate your voids

with wood fiber and

you put as a flex

insulation and you

have a hardboard

on the outside.

It's just my opinion.

The best way

how to build.

I guess it's hard

you've never been

in one like that.

like, we see our

passive houses as

super comfortable

places and healthy

places to be in, but

we've never been to

that next little home.

I think that's the hard

I

never been in it.

, and you know

what Daniel just.

explaining that to me

right now makes total

sense to me, right?

Because, you know,

we think to ourselves

because we're building

a passive house

and because it's

gone through PHPP

and it's hitting

all the metrics,

we think, oh, well,

we've got a, we've

got a great house.

But you just explaining

that then with the

thermal mass and the

natural components

of it, and even the

moisture absorption

Ability of wood fiber.

It's another element.

It's another layer

of health within

that business.

And I know this is

probably a whole

other topic to go

down a rabbit hole on.

, but just touching

on building

physics right now.

Building physics

is something, as

you said, is taught

as an apprentice

, in Germany.

I mean, Matt and I have

just kind of stumbled

across building physics

because we just wanted

to build better.

You coming to Australia

with your previous

knowledge of building

physics, where do

you see Australia's

climate currently

at this point?

At, on the 4th

of July, 2024?

Yeah, still

in the basics.

So when you have the

energy consultants,

for example, because

I'm involved quite

a bit in commercial

also, or big resi

builds, and sometimes

I'm shocked what

they're coming up with,

because we keep talking

about, are we going

to talk more about

energy And energy.

And energy and more

insulation, but to

leave building physics

completely behind.

And what is

part of building

physics Thermally?

Yes, it's part of

building physics.

But mainly important

is moisture management

and condensation.

And condensation

happens after a

mismanaged moisture

management and

condensation happens

after mold, so it's

more likely to have

mold and condensation

and even these.

Basic knowledge,

we still don't

have even the basic

knowledge about it.

Widely accessible

on the market.

So the thing is

I didn't learn

deep building

physics in Germany,

apprenticeship also.

It was more like you

follow these, these,

these, these steps.

Yeah.

Tightness layer on

the inside, fully

insulated, no air

gaps on the inside,

on the outside, vapor

permanent membrane

on the outside, and

you should be right.

so it was kind of

a really standard

way, how to do it.

Standardizing things.

That's the most

important part.

It makes it a little

bit more difficult

in Australia because

you have different

climate zones.

So what will work in

Melbourne does mean it

will work in Sydney.

The temperatures are

relatively similar

during the year, but

the big difference

are humidity.

So for example, in

Sydney, I had in the

place where I'm living

over month, month,

month, 80 percent plus

humidity on the outside

and also on the inside,

because I live in

such a terrible place.

So it means back

diffusion is a

huge problem here.

You don't have to go

into deep into it.

So I'm just saying

is Australia has

many different

climates, so we can't.

Just generalize

everything, but I

think it would be a

complete different

topic, because you

could go kilometers

and kilometers

down the hall back

to the basics.

I think we need to have

a better understanding

and the basics have

to be taught and

TAFE and have to be

easy, accessible,

the reason I ask

that, Daniel is that

like, I'm assuming

you're around about

our age sort of.

Late thirties, forties,

early forties, um, 41.

Yep.

Same my age.

So what you're going

back 20 odd years with

your, when you did

your apprenticeship,

like touching on

like basic building

physics, where you're

talking about really

good external building

wrap, really good

internal building wrap.

Which was new at

this time, sorry

to interrupt you.

Like the Intello has

been invented 2001.

So it means kind of

this date, no, 2003.

So this was just new.

So, I just thought I'd

interrupt you, but it's

an interesting part.

So the year 2000,

when I started my

apprenticeship, the

worst building you

could build is a timber

construction building.

So it was a timber.

Now stay with built

brick and normal roof

when you're fine.

Because what we did

is we had to poly

polyethylene foil.

On the inside and

you said, actually,

if you're absolutely

tight on the inside and

tight on the outside,

you should be fine.

And it can work as

long as you don't

introduce moisture.

So the problem is

in the eighties,

nineties, we built so

many terrible timber

constructions that

by the two thousands,

we had to deal with

so many problems

because we improved

energy efficiency.

We ended up with so

many problems that

were in the beginning

of two thousands.

No one wanted to build

timber construction.

So we just had to

deal with all the

mistakes of the

previous decades.

This was just a

turning point.

It was a air tightness.

If you don't build air

tightness, you stuff

up your whole house.

that's because

we changed the

drying potential

of the structure,

is that correct?

Yes, exactly.

and where the

building, yeah.

so means kind of, as I

said, if you're vapor

tight on the inside

and vapor tight on

the outside, it can

work, but very often

the neutral holds

for the power points.

And this is when

you actually have

internal moisture

getting your structure

and you trap it.

Then I said,

yeah, okay.

We got it because

you have condensation

on the outside

of the building.

Then they say,

okay, you have to

be vapor permeable

on the outside.

So we introduced vapor

permeable membranes

on the outside and

that worked okay also.

But the problem is it

works in winter, but

not in summer because

in summer you have

external moisture

getting in, hitting

the plastic foil on

your head, condensation

on the inside.

And that's funny

with Germany, where

we have relatively

low humidity on the

outside because you're

close to the Alps.

So we have actually.

All year long,

relatively dry air.

We're not talking about

Australia where we

have 80 percent plus.

So then we had to

change the inner layer.

Luckily, by mistake,

now it's proclaimed

by mistake, invented

the intelligent

air tightness

layer function,

the interlo layer.

The original one

was paper based.

Then we had

the , PP one.

Polyethylene one

coming out and this

actually changed

the construction.

So since then, 2000,

since the year 2003,

we are actually able

to build a perfect

wall buildup and we

realized, okay, it's

actually working

around the world.

What I'm just saying

is based on the

building physics

part, I was just

in this, time where

actually everything was

changing a little bit.

So panic mode,

air tightness,

mold, everyone's

very afraid of it.

And I jumped on

this wagon also.

Sorry, Amish.

I think I've

lost my train of

thought here too.

But I guess one of, one

of the reasons why I

was trying to bring it

up was the fact that,

you know, this is old

news to you that, you

know, for your whole

time in the industry,

20 plus years, you've

always kind of had a

basic understanding

of building physics.

Now in Australia,

it almost feels for

the, which is great.

The building physics

is now becoming

cool, right?

Like building physics

is like, this is the

cool thing to do.

It's high performance,

this and building

wrap that, which

is, which is great.

But we are, I guess

the point I'm trying

to make is we're

so far behind here.

Like this is such a

new thing for us in

Australia, but building

physics remains true,

whether you're building

in Germany 25 years

ago, or building in

Sydney in 2024, like

it's exactly the same.

It's the same

principles that need

to be followed, which

is why it's amazing

that there are people

like you out here,

passionate, who give

a fuck about building,

who are helping educate

our industry now

and making it sexy.

Because, you know,

I know myself, I

like things to be

sexy and looking

at your beautiful,

looking at your

beautiful face here

and your detailing.

And it gets me excited

when I, uh, when I say

what you're doing on

your YouTube channel.

Airboss Dan, by the

Are we, are we, are

we setting up a new

Tinder profile now?

What's going on?

Apple's there.

Tinder.

Oh,

Dan's actually

messaged, Dan's

messaged me during

this and he's asked

to take a screenshot

profile on this.

I'll ask everyone

at the moment.

Again,

So I, I want to, um,

for someone that maybe

doesn't understand

building physics

and wants to learn

more, where would you

suggest they start?

it's advertisement

for, The company

you're working for

is because

your pro climber hat

off for five seconds.

now, but I don't

know anyone else was

teaching building

physics in Australia

at the moment.

So I really don't know

because like just to go

step back before I came

to Australia, I was

really looking through

all the installation

guide materials from

manufacturers from

competitors also.

And I couldn't find

anyone who's really

showing people

how to install

products properly.

How to install

membranes properly,

because if you have

a good product, if

you don't install

it, right, you don't

have a good outcome.

So that's why I'm

very proud of that.

I actually created.

So we have a very

crystal clear

guideline, how to

install and how to

follow things step

by step by step.

Um, that's why

I think like.

What we do like the

education and training

part is great.

Passive house

during the passive

cost training is

bloody awesome.

Also recommend everyone

when you pass a

false course, even

moisture management

is not part of it.

It's more like air

quality, but not

really condensation

and moisture management

risks, which I

hope will come in.

But I wouldn't know

where you actually

really have building

physics courses.

Maybe, you know,

more than I do.

it sounds to me like

we need to start one.

I've just written

it down that you've

just said no one is

teaching building

physics, right?

And the fact that

you got taught basic

building physics 20

plus years ago, and

there's no one in

Australia teaching

that now, it just

blows my mind.

Yeah.

That's why

the mindful builder

should start something.

The Mindful Builder

building physics course

Mindful

builder

sure.

with Airbus, Dan.

I love it.

I think, you know,

also that I'm part of

the future build co

platform also,

and That's going

to be part of it.

Also, we have the first

courses and I'm pretty

sure we would have it

there, but it's always

good to have different

platforms also.

do you think you get

enough credit for the

amount of information

that you've been passed

on to everyone else

Depends on, on

what level we're

talking about.

So like from you

guys, builders, the

guys who really.

Are you interested

in, yes, like you

had last week in

events in Middagong

with Ed Poulton.

And this effort, this

guy put on to bring me

to the event, like two

food trucks, coffee

truck, everything else.

Like he really

organized a massive

events because he

asked me and say,

yeah, I have to

check when I'm have

time and have time.

And he ended up having

a massive events.

It was a whole

day event with 40

plus builders and

a few presence for

master builders

have been there too.

And the effort he put

in just to bring me

there and we run a

whole day training was

And that's a very high

level of appreciation

if you ask me to be

honest, because like

he knew exactly,

okay, Daniel is time

precious because

he's traveling a lot.

He's doing trainings,

he's doing product

testings and all

the other stuff.

And so it would

say in this level.

With builders, I

definitely think

of a high level

of appreciation.

Maybe the rest

of the market.

I'm not sure.

who doesn't

appreciate you?

commercial very often.

I have the feeling

like, because, and

lots of like some

of the passive house

builders when the

retrofit buildings, I

had a few sites, for

example, the architects

have been a bit weird

also not showed up.

So they showed

up way too late.

For example, I

give them tips.

They didn't

even listen.

And the thing is

like, my experience is

maybe 60, 70 percent

retrofitting based

and 30, 40 percent

a new build based.

So it means kind

of, I have a very

strong knowledge

about retrofitting,

especially with

wood fiber and all

these problems.

And when I come on site

and then I see they're

not really listening,

In my head, I just turn

around and walk off.

So I don't spend

another minute because

I know like you guys

and so many other guys

actually say, Oh, cool.

I'm really

interested in what

you have to say.

And because if

you would talk

about retrofit at

some point, it's a

complete new topic.

And that must kill you

because the amount of

times that I've called

you for information

and all you want to

do is give every bit

of information across

to me that you can.

And then someone

who probably doesn't

understand and

respect the person

they actually have

working with them

and the luxury of

having you on site.

I don't even

get you on site.

They have you

on site and they

don't respect you.

That to me is

infuriating.

propose something?

So, I mean, it's no

secret that I'm part

of Sustainable Builders

Alliance and, helping

activate a site in

Brunswick in Victoria.

I'm going to throw us

all under the bus here

and let's, let's put on

an event in, I'm going

to say in September,

let's put ourselves

out here and make

ourselves accountable.

In September, let's

hold a building

physics for dummies

hosted by Airboss

Dan, Matthew Carlin

and Hamish and the

master dummy and SBA.

Yeah.

that would be amazing.

I'm in Melbourne anyway

for product testing,

so if you can line

it up would be even

better.

yeah, so, so

We'll definitely

get that going.

uh, I'm, I'm also

conscious of time,

but you've also got

an event coming up

in Melbourne talking

about Jesse's special,

uh, book that I

have next to me.

Do you just

yeah.

quick plug to that?

Have you sold

all the tickets?

Oh yeah.

So be, I think a

hundred, 120% oversold.

So like, like

120 spots.

So 110 spots may have

already 180 or so.

So it's

over.

won't

Maybe

can I get a VIP ticket?

Cause I didn't get one.

I

Yeah.

one.

Oh, you didn't get

invited out for dinner.

You didn't get

that invite?

You know what, Dan,

Dan does call me every

now and then and

say, we need to talk.

We need to talk.

yes, maybe sometimes

you have to talk

about after also,

which shouldn't make

it on the podcast.

you don't think just

our general like little

chit chat discussion

is interesting

to other people

listening right now?

Okay.

nah, I wanted to

say some naughty,

naughty topics.

So,

it.

I think it is important

to kind of also

demonstrate that,

you know, Dan, you're

just an easy going

kind of guy, right.

Who's really generous

for this time.

And the fact that we

can just jump on here

with pretty much no

idea of what we're

going to talk about.

And now what we've

been talking for over

an hour now, um, of

really interesting,

beneficial stuff.

Like, I mean,

I don't know

where I'm

many topics we just

say, I just want to say

thank you, but yeah,

yeah,

topics we just,

talk about?

I'm passionate about

so many things.

We could talk about

gin and tonics, what

my favorite gin is.

What's the

first thing that comes

to your mind when I say

need to build better?

Yeah.

I would always

say, just take

pride in your work.

but it's difficult.

the education, I'm

very frustrated with

the education system

because my biggest

experience is.

People complaining

about, oh, it's so

difficult to find a

good builder and, and

say, yes, it can be,

but not because the

builder is stupid.

That's not what's

happening here.

What I realized, I

have the feeling is the

biggest problem we have

here in Australia is.

For builders to get

to quality content

and quality knowledge.

And it doesn't mean

because we're all

sipping through

social media all the

time, you see all

sorts of things, but

it's not a good way.

In my, that's my

personal opinion to

copy UK because UK

has still massive

problems, like just in

London, I think they

have hundreds of people

freezing to death

every year in their

homes because they

can't afford the energy

bills because the house

is a terrible cold.

So why should we follow

UK then if this is

actually a serious

problem over there?

And the billing

standards.

So I'm just saying is

how do we know what

quality content is?

If you see it on

social media or

somewhere else,

clickbait, that,

that, that's how it

works, so it's that

instant gratification.

yes.

But what I'm trying to

say is kind of, I see

so many builders, many,

many, many, I can say

hundreds and thousands

of builders are trained

in the last four years,

and I would say the

percentage was like,

who walked off and

say, yeah, I was okay

and wasn't interested

is less than 5%.

I would say at least

90, 95 percent everyone

was actually interested

and say like, yes, it

was worthwhile spending

two, three hours,

sometimes up to four,

four and a half hours.

So it was worth

every minute spending

with you because it

actually was about.

taking something home

and even if it's just

one topic, but they're

taking something home

because it's kind

of proven experience

science based, but

where do we find

And I, I think it's as

we go back to that we

talked about earlier,

we need to complete

reform on a whole

industry, the way that

people are licensed,

that people are

held, like, referred

to themselves as

professionals, the way

we educate our kids.

Like, I have this whole

idea is like, if you

want to be a tradie,

do you really need to

go through year 12?

like, why can't

let year 12 be that

first year of that

sort of full time

schooling where they

learn how to be.

carpenter, That's when

we spat out really

good tradies that

were really passionate

about what they did.

Now it is just turned

into this government

tick box where you go

to your trade school,

we get paid because

we got them completed.

Like they don't even

get a pass fail now.

And you don't even

get a pass fail.

It's just you pass

so they can get their

government funding.

That's the problem.

The trade school just

wants to get paid.

They don't give

a about teaching

the kids properly.

Yeah.

And the problem is,

I know quite a few

teachers and nearly

in every TAFE you find

some very motivated

and interested

teachers, but they

can't get it in.

The fight so hard,

um, to get it in

there and they're

just getting blocked

out, blocked out.

And now I think another

weather tightness

course got canceled

here in Sydney.

Also, I'm not sure if

it's a hundred percent

true, but it's just as

thing as they always

have a few teachers

really want to improve

the system, but they're

just banging the heads

against the walls.

And that's

pretty much it.

A shame.

It's all because we've

always done it that

way and people are so

afraid to make change.

Like, I get so

frustrated about

this whole topic.

Like, we have

the answers.

It's not like

we're doing this

for the first time

and we're taking

huge leap of faith.

Like, we just want

that short term gain

that it's all fixed

within the end of

the year because oh,

we've got an extra

80, 000 tradies.

Oh, we've we've

done the job but

how about we look

at trying to at least

get 30, 000 good

tradies for 10 years.

No, I,

I but I have a

quick anecdote.

So I had a TAFE

training maybe half

a year, a year ago.

Can't remember

a metal bank.

brand new TAFE, like

400 million building.

And, and they

really want to bring

all the weather,

weatherproofing

and how to install

windows on, on board.

Also, which you say

it's trouble because

we don't have the

time to teach it.

Funny enough is that's

Daniel in his big

mouth, to be honest.

So, because like

a trend had one to

cause all with the

apprentice also, and

I had my toolbox and

I had like one of the

chisels because all

my chisels, you can

actually shave yourself

with them and had them

in the toolbox too.

And I saw one of the

apprentice actually

hammering it out and

you saw like all the

edges are really rough

and I just gave him a

tip because he's like,

cause I was looking at

him and said, Oh, how

would you do it then?

So yeah, I grabbed

my chisel and I

really just shaved

the sides off.

So they're really,

really perfect.

It's a really

nice and smooth.

The teacher came

into me and yelled

at me what I'm doing

there and not have

to show anything

to his students.

I said, yeah, he

will ask me because

he was interested.

So that's not your

job, how to show it.

You just do it how you

saw it on the video.

That's just a

video on a video.

What?

Huh?

And then he hammered

it out and it was

very, very rough

and it didn't look.

Any good at all.

Well, it's just a,

where's the point.

First of all, if

you show something

practically show by

your hand, you have

to show that, you

know, what you're

talking off, but

that's the rule.

Number one, it means

kind of specific

because another Dan

fact, Mitch, we, we

didn't know, but I

trained karate for over

14 years and I was a

karate trainer, for,

Nearly 10 years plus.

And what happened,

my teacher on top

also, and he said,

rule number one,

whenever you teach

your students, you

always show exactly

how to do it.

And you train

with them.

You're not staying

on top, like,

like a big boy.

And if I say, sure,

what you can do is now

you train with them.

And that's

important because

then they actually

take you serious.

Being a master, being

a sensei, really

kind of that you

really know what's

going on because then

people respect you.

so don't fuck with Dan.

Can I just jump in on

one trade school story?

Can I just

jump on in one?

So I actually pulled

my my team from

the trading school

that and I'm going

to be over here.

They were originally

known as one of the

better TAFE teaching

3d apprentices.

I had to pull them

because I was telling

my team that what they

were doing is overkill.

We don't need

to install a

window like that.

Don't worry about that.

Like don't

worry about it.

Who cares?

That's just too

much detail.

That's an issue And

again, like there's

good and there's bad.

There's not all the

TAFE teachers are bad,

but when you don't have

good TAFE teachers,

the message gets lost.

You know what my

problem was when I was,

when I came back from

school and I say, yeah,

this is what we have,

how we have to do it.

So I was actually

going to my bosses and

none is how you do it.

And that's a

new standard.

And so always

was actually told

what's happening

in the future.

That's what you learn.

It's cool.

And that's reality

is different.

but most of the time

you actually realized

that now the new

standard actually

got implemented in

a building code,

which is different

anyway, in Germany,

I'm, um, probably going

to take an opportunity

now to, to wrap this

up because I think

if we're given any

more time, we're just

going to keep talking

all afternoon because

I think between the

three of us, uh, we

could probably solve

all the problems in the

construction industry.

Dan, thank you so much

for coming on today.

Um, you have been, a

massive influence on.

Where I've taken my

business over the past

five to six years.

And I feel really

privileged to have

your phone number

in my phone and be

able to call your

friend as well.

And, the time that you

give me personally,

and I know Matt is

the same, is always

incredibly generous.

So thank you very

much for that.

And I am very much

looking forward to

having you down in

Melbourne to do that,

um, building physics

for dummies with the

Mindful Builder and

Sustainable Builders

Alliance in September,

October this year.

think it's a

great idea, yes.

I reckon Cam on row.

We're just going

to sign him up

for that as well.

He's coming.

Trust me, Cam was going

to be there as well.

You and I just are

the same brain,

without a doubt.

Drew can be the emcee.

can we finish

with up something

more positive?

Because I always

struggle, um, because

we do a lot of

presentations and you,

of course, you talk

about problems in the

presentations, but now

we talk about problems

without a solution.

So I think we should

leave our audience, uh,

with something like a

solution, a direction,

maybe you can start and

I find something later,

Yeah, absolutely.

we've touched on a

whole bunch of problems

here, but I'm going to

dial in on one of them.

One of them is,

the building fabric

of our buildings.

If we build them

airtight, we're

going to have issues.

If we're not managing

them properly, we're

not putting that, wall

assembly correctly.

There are solutions

there and I'm going

to give Proclimer

a plug here.

They have a full

set of, maybe we

can reach out to

Proclimer for some

sponsorship, Manny.

So maybe I'll I'll

lean in on this a

little bit.

Like

That's how I got

Dan on today.

have an amazing, system

of products to use.

and if you aren't going

to it, , The Australian

study presentation

that Jesse Clark is

going to be doing

throughout Australia

is definitely something

that everybody should

go and look at.

And I know you can

jump onto the pro

climber website and

download that study.

It is written by

probably someone

who is 20 times

smarter than me.

Uh, but he, he has the

ability to put into

words that everybody

can understand.

So I definitely

recommend everybody

to read that too.

and the install

training, the

install training

that Dan does, or in

Melbourne, we have

performance membranes.

They're doing,

Hamish is wearing the

performance membranes

hat, and I still am

yet to receive mine,

Kevin, Dev and Justin.

Um, but, there's

so many avenues and

this is probably the

positive we can go

on Dan is there, the

information's there.

Like, it's not

like now, when we

started learning, we

had to go find it.

We had to rely on

your Instagram of

you just putting some

wrap on on the wall

and try zooming on

a video to learn.

It's all there.

We're like, the

generation now are

lucky to have this

at the hand where

I can get a new

apprentice or a new

employee I can send

'em to your training.

And they learn and

they learn a lot and

they're learning from

very lovely people.

They're like, they,

they're not there just

to fog them a product.

They actually

genuinely care about

the information

they're passing on.

They want that tra that

person to be better.

I feel guilty

every time when I

mentioned products

in my presentations

on my training

because I like, no,

no, it shouldn't

be a sales thing.

It should be actually,

no, no, I want to

share experience

and knowledge

and not products.

Yep.

But that, But

that is that, that,

I have to mention

proclamer products,

so on a positive,

where, where do you

see this industry

in say, five years?

Where do, where do

you hope to see this

industry in five years?

Oh, if this is

positive, I'm not sure.

So, uh, if you follow

the seven star.

Uh, line could be

quite difficult, um,

because seven star

is a little bit like

playing lottery.

You taking certain,

certain boxes and

they don't have to be

related to each other.

And yeah, tightness

and motion meant

management is still not

really a part of it.

So if you would go

more into passive house

directions, even if

you cut it down, then

later on, that's fine.

It would be

definitely better.

The reason is we

talk about fashion.

Oh, so this bloody

morons to always

started in the middle

of any presentations.

We didn't get

any warning.

So I think I

have 20 seconds.

So the reason is why

I'm so passionate about

us because I remember

all the damages

had been Germany.

We, at the moment,

right now in

Australia, we can

jump over 20 years.

We take on boards, all

the mistake of other

countries and step over

them because otherwise

This is hilarious.

hilarious, that, the

the funny thing

is I think they

do it once a month

or so, like, yeah,

good, good building

quality, I guess,

just

Hey, let's wrap

it up there, man.

Let's, let's get

you back on again.

Uh, Dan, thank you

just

to see you.

Matty can't

talk.

He's just pissed

himself laughing.

All right.

Thanks very much, uh,

no,

you, Matty.