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0:00:05.4 Vickie Brett: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vickie Brett.

0:00:10.4 Amanda Selogie: I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:19.5 VB: Each week we're going to explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others...

0:00:25.5 AS: And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

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0:00:34.2 AS: Welcome back friends.

0:00:37.5 VB: Hello. It's going to be a solo one. [laughter]

0:00:39.4 AS: Yep, just us. We had this topic kind of pop up in a couple of our cases more recently. It feels like I just got a couple things like at the same time with this issue. And so we thought it was important 'cause we haven't really touched on it too much. And I think it's something that is really under identified or under supported in IEPs. And so that topic is ELL designation or English Language Learner. I think so often we see, in IEPs, we see a student is designated as ELL, but nothing comes of it. And so, today we want to really touch on, like, when should a child be designated as an English language learner? And where do we go from there? What are the district's obligations for that child based on that designation?

0:01:33.4 VB: Right, and there are a lot of different programs to improve English language skills for these learners. This is one of those areas where there's overlap and there are different things that can happen. And just because you're ELL and have an IEP doesn't mean that you do X, Y, and Z, right? And I think that that's why, and you and I kind of have had different experiences, where it will say ELL, and the child was proficient from the get-go, and I'll talk about how that is determined, and the parent is trying to get off that designation. But because they are of a certain ethnicity, it just like stays on there whereas in your situation it was the opposite where like they just didn't do anything.

0:02:23.4 AS: Yeah, and I think because a lot of assumptions occur with ELL designation and I think that assumption tends to trend towards certain ethnicities than others, and that's a problem. So let's back up a minute for our listeners and kind of talk about, and I want to give the definition of ELL, and I want to differentiate it from what we often hear the term English as a Second Language or ESL, and so these are the distinctions. So ELL, or an English Language Learner, is a national origin minority student who is a limited English proficient. So this term is often preferred over the Limited English Proficient, or I think it used to be a term LEP, as the ELL is supposed to highlight the accomplishments versus the deficit. So we're looking at how proficient the student is in the English language.

0:03:15.5 AS: Now, in terms of when should an IEP team even be thinking, is this a designation or not? This is where the assumptions come in because if the parents speak a language other than English, if there is a language spoken at home, if the student's first language was not English, generally, this is when we should be looking at this. But it's not an automatic thing. It's not like there was another language at home, parents speak another language, the child either was born having exposure to just one language and that was their first language that they spoke, that doesn't automatically mean that they're an ELL student, and I think that's where the assumptions come in, because often assessments aren't done. It's just a checking a box.

0:04:03.4 VB: Yes, that is exactly right. And so then when we're looking at English as a second language, that can be more of an umbrella term for the program that teaches the techniques, the methodology and at times has a special curriculum that's teaching the ELL students the English language skills. And that is within all areas of listening, speaking, reading, writing, vocabulary, even just culturally, as well as study skills. And so then that's where we kind of have those differences. And then this is also not to be, because this kind of been a new trend lately, and especially in Southern California, are those dual immersion programs, which I just wanted to kind of call out really quickly as well.

0:04:53.9 VB: So that is an entire school and curriculum that is geared towards immersing a child to learn a second language. So that would be Mandarin there, and then more often in SoCal, Spanish. So then it's an entire kind of program so that your child starts in kindergarten, and it just depends, but it could be 80% in Spanish and 20% in English. And so then once they get to third, or fourth grade, it's 50/50. So that is also different than what we are going to focus on today, which is ELL.

0:05:29.4 AS: Yeah, and I want to point out that a designation of ELL and English Second Language, they're not mutually exclusive. We have so many situations where there is a big demographic population in a school where there are a lot of students who are not native English speakers and you might see programs where, similar to how we have RSP, a group of students are pulled out to have this language, this English language instruction that is separate. And that's not necessarily under the guides or under the umbrella of the IEP. That is something that is a demographic of maybe that school or that population. What we're talking about today is more aligned with what should be in the IEP. So we've got a student who already qualifies unless has an IEP for one of the 13 eligibility categories, and simultaneously they can be designated as an English Language Learner. And what we find is, of course, they can impact each other, right?

0:06:32.0 AS: Being not proficient in English can impact communication delays that already exist because of a diagnosis of autism. A diagnosis of autism can also impact the student's ability to comprehend and understand language, and instruction. But just because there are situations where students are receiving ESL, that program where it might not be under an IEP, it might be more of a general program. But when we have a student who has an IEP and we're looking at English as a second language instruction or programming, it is required to still be individualized to that student. And the IEP is supposed to designate how much time the child needs to receive of this instruction, weekly, and just like any other service, it should be designated if it's in a group or individual, if it's pulled out of the classroom; if it's pushed into the classroom. So this may look different for a student on an IEP versus not on an IEP.

0:07:32.4 VB: That's actually a really good point. And I think being able to kind of see... And we will be having a part two where we will be discussing the assessment portion, not necessarily of designating ELL, but in relation to the IEP. And that is just bringing me towards what we want to do today, is really talk about how an IEP is developed for this child if that designation is already there or that they are becoming aware of it, because it could all be happening at the same time too. We would hope ELL would be the designation before the IEP, just based on where the child was coming from and things like that. But the first step is really trying to assess what that child's English language proficiency is, and does it affect how special education services could be administered.

0:08:25.4 AS: And how does the language proficiency impact that child's ability to learn and in different environments? So just like we would consider a communication delay or a sensory processing issue, we would consider this the same way as, how does it impact learning. How does it impact their access to the curriculum? How does it impact their ability to make progress? And go from there in terms of developing goals and services. But where I find more, often than not, when I have students that have the ELL designation, that's all it is, is it's a check mark on the IEP and it's rarer for me to see more of that instruction. And I think, and we'll dive into these assumptions because I think what happens is sometimes when a child is exposed through school to a good amount of English, and maybe they are speaking some English, the assumption is, well, if they know some English, and because we're teaching English language arts, we're teaching English, we don't need to give anything else because we're already doing that.

0:09:26.9 AS: Therefore we have the assumption that the student can understand English whereas that's not always the case. And that's kind of a couple of the cases I've had recently where, and this is somewhat of the distinctions that we'll talk about, the two cases that I have had recently have had to deal with students whose primary first language was Chinese Mandarin, English as their second language. And in one case, the student was never designated as an ELL student even though the primary language spoken at home was Mandarin, the student's first language was Mandarin, but because by the time they got through the school system, they had some proficiency in English, that it was never even considered. Whereas I have another student, it was designated, but nothing came of it. And, by the time the case came to me, it was very clear that the student's language proficiency, or lack thereof, was a huge impact on the child's ability to understand what was happening in the classroom.

0:10:29.8 AS: And instead of that being kind of dove into more, the team blamed everything on this child's autism, and the behaviors that he was having were solely related to the autism, and they really categorized it as it's just not a preferred activity for him. When in actuality, the level of understanding he has is not there in the English language. And we'll get into your example in just a second. I wanna give an example of why this is important. Every language has its own nuances, and things aren't always translated exactly the way that we would love them to be, right?

0:11:09.4 VB: Totally.

0:11:10.4 AS: And so one aspect of Chinese Mandarin that I've had to come and learn is that there's not really a yes or no answer. So, if you're asking a student whose primary language is Chinese Mandarin, and you're asking them a yes or no question, they're not going to respond and answer as yes or no. Even if they know yes or no, like the word in English, the way they're processing that question and the way that they're trying to answer it is primarily in Mandarin because that is their more proficient language. The way that these types of questions are answered in Chinese Mandarin is through repetition. So for example, if you're asking the student, "Are you hungry?" They might respond with, "Hungry," rather than, "Yes, I'm hungry." Because when we look at behaviors of autism, we look at a lot of repetition.

0:12:09.1 AS: Sometimes kids do have repetition of language and something like a repetition like that might be considered as they're not really understanding the question and they're not responding, they're not being compliant, but in actuality, language-wise, he is. And if you don't understand those nuances, you might think, well, they're not complying, they're not responding. So that's just one example that I've talked through with this IEP team about how we really truly need to understand not only what proficiency this student has with English, but also how we are not only providing them with actual instruction of this child needs more English instruction, so more maybe like an intensive program being pulled out, but we also need to be mindful of it in writing a combination. So how the aide is responding to this child, how the aide is asking questions?

0:13:04.3 AS: So maybe not asking yes or no questions to cause confusion, but actually asking may be multiple-choice questions or more open-ended might be more appropriate for that child, things like that. So it's not just, "Oh, we're gonna pull them aside, give them some more intervention," and then not change anything about how we act with them in the classroom. We really need to be looking at all aspects of the IEP with regard to language because language impacts everything.

0:13:30.4 VB: And it should be noted, if your child is not accessing the curriculum because their English language proficiency is very low, that doesn't mean that they're going to qualify for an IEP.

0:13:46.0 AS: Right. Not automatic.

0:13:46.1 VB: This is something that I've had to explain. Like that's why we need to arrange for there to be a bilingual assessor so that the child is assessed in their native language and in their second language. We wanna see the strengths and weaknesses because I have had clients that have their IQ, their true IQ show up as being average, above average. The evaluation is provided to them in their native language of Spanish, and then it's not so high when it's English. So that's why it's really important, and that's why Amanda was saying, that when people assume, it is dangerous because it could show that with the English, assuming that's the second language of the child, their IQ could be very low. That could be because of the cultural biases that are within the assessments that the child didn't really understand the intricacies of it, and that in and of itself, is dangerous when we're looking at the supports and services for the child.

0:14:45.6 VB: So that's why it is important for the child to be assessed in their native language. But it doesn't work the other way around, where if your child, their English is not proficient, then we want to be able to have them assess in their own language so that we can get a true understanding of what their strengths and weaknesses are. But they're not going to just automatically qualify for Special Ed. That's just not how it works. There have to be unique learning challenges there that are presented within the assessment data and that would qualify them.

0:15:15.4 AS: They would need to look at the individual needs of that particular child to really understand where they're at, where they should be, and what gaps are there. And not just for eligibility, but for developing the IEP.

0:15:29.4 VB: Exactly. And so, just as we're finishing up, that was kind of a little bit about why it was something that we wanted to discuss, because, at first blush, you're like, yeah, of course, it's something that seems really intuitive. Yeah, this child, but sometimes I think IEP teams can get really caught up in the child being new, in the parents may be having, they have difficulty communicating with parents. And so, there is a structure to which we want the schools to follow, but then to also have those conversations. And this is what we talk about all the time, right? Let's dig a little deeper so that we can... And I don't think, but for you kind of asking those questions at IEP is for that particular child that was repeating back certain things and not necessarily saying yes or no, I don't know that those team members would have gotten there. It would have just been designated as a behavior, and then they would have been trying to treat something that is culturally innate to him as a behavior and try to change that, and it just would not have worked.

0:16:37.4 AS: Right. And I think that's one of the reasons we wanted to talk about this, but also, important for teams to know, is that it is something that I don't think enough school staff understand kind of this designation because I think it's just so many just go with the flow and like, oh, it's something that we check on the IEP and that's that. And so the reverse of that, sometimes students are designated as ELL when they shouldn't be, or there might be a time where it should be taken off because realistically if we are given proper and appropriate services to a student, we would want them to become more proficient with English. And so things could change all the time and it might not be something where they have this designation forever.

0:17:21.1 AS: But going back to those assumptions, we're given some assumptions that if the parent comes in speaking English, then we're not even gonna ask about their background and therefore we're gonna assume that they're not designated. But on the reverse, sometimes parents come in speaking maybe Spanish or speaking another language and then assumptions are made that this child also, when sometimes they don't, or there's also the racial bias of certain ethnicities or names and then there's the assumption that, oh, maybe this student, of course, was an English language learner when they actually weren't. They've only known English.

0:17:57.4 VB: Yeah. So if this has been your experience, please message us so that we have any of your particular questions that we can either discuss in a separate podcast or with our bilingual assessor that we're gonna have on. Because the more that we're able to kind of see these, not even hypothetical, like these real situations that are happening, the easier it will be to help you guys create a game plan so that you're able to have the vocabulary to speak about it. And yeah, we're really excited for that. So this will drop and then we will record. So yeah, send those messages to us so that we can get those answered. And we hope you guys have a wonderful rest of your day.

0:18:36.2 AS: Bye.

0:18:38.0 VB: Bye.

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