Hi, everyone. Welcome to Unchattered. Today, you're listening to a conversation I had with Aimee. Aimee, thank you so much for coming on to Orange Hatter today and sharing your Bitcoin story with us. Welcome.

Well, thank you. Thanks for having

me. Can you tell us a little bit about your background so our audience can get to know you a little bit better?

sure. I mean, I work in higher education, my background, um, from, you know, My education is in science, but I work in fundraising and higher ed.

And you mention that you move around quite a bit, during the year. Where are you right now?

I'm in Colorado at the moment. Um, just dropped, my younger son at college and, You know, I have two boys that are in college now and so I'm trying to spend more time with my parents who are getting older and going to be working from Vermont, Wyoming and Mexico this next year with like probably some trips to Nashville where my older son is at interspersed in and other trips to Colorado as well.

Very busy. can you tell us a little bit about how you came across. Bitcoin, and what the circumstances were.

So actually the very first time I heard about Bitcoin was in the early days when it first came out, I think it was a fast company, um, article about it. And the whole thing just seems so weird, like, like how could you just create like a digital money and it would be, valuable or that people would buy into it. And so, and then I, then there were years. That I didn't ever even think of Bitcoin. I just kind of knew it existed, but it didn't come up in my life at all. And then in 2020, I realized that my dad with extra money that he had had bought, he bought Bitcoin, Ethereum, and a whole bunch of other stuff. And, um. And that both of my boys, who, you know, were still in high school at the time had bought Bitcoin. And so that kind of intrigued me and I started looking more into it and I thought, well, if I'm going to buy Bitcoin, I really want to understand what it is and how it works. And, um. I had been during the whole COVID time gravitating toward Libertarian podcasts, and it had been coming up in those, and there was a course that was advertised that was about Bitcoin, so I actually took that course, which was really just listening to, you know, three different, I think, sessions with someone explaining it, and there's, looking back, there's so, I should re watch those sessions, because there were so many things that he mentioned that, I didn't know anything about it at the time, and then I took another course, and then I started reading, and then I followed the What Bitcoin Did podcast, and I learned a lot from that podcast, and it just kind of folded out from there, and I think the moment that really, it clicked for me, and the big moment for me was when I realized that Bitcoin was something that I could hold, that no one, including the government, could take away from me, that I could actually sovereignly own it. That was huge.

Yeah that's that's a huge draw for every single Bitcoiner. What was your first impression when you came across it again? Other than the fact that your family members were investing in Bitcoin? Was there any like, what was your number one doubt about Bitcoin at that time that you had to overcome?

Yeah, you know, I don't think that I had huge doubts about it. I mean, I didn't come to it with a lot of skepticism like a lot of folks do. I kind of had this open mind toward it and, and just had a lot of curiosity about it. Um, probably, you know, just harking back to that article I remember reading and some of the, the questions I had about how can it be like, A currency, you know, a money. I mean, I just, uh, I'd never thought of money except for this thing that was issued by the government. And I'd never really thought about money period. And so to start, you know, delving into what money was and how money started, and you know that money was backed by gold and then all the things that have happened since and the petrodollar and, um, you know that we can essentially, with the U. S. dollar with our fiat currency print energy. I mean, I guess that's the rabbit hole I went down and because I have these, I guess, libertarian kind of tendencies and freedom is really important to me. Um, it just, it. It immediately resonated with my values. So I didn't, I don't think that I had a lot of skepticism to overcome. It was just, I had never really delved in before. And because my dad and my boys owned Bitcoin, that was the thing that made me want to go and learn more about it. Cause I thought, well, I want to get some Bitcoin too. And, but I definitely didn't want to buy something I didn't understand.

That's really smart. That's really smart. So once you learned about Bitcoin, what was it like trying to share it with other people in your life? It sounds like your, your family was already investing in Bitcoin. Was it easy to talk to them about the values that are incorporated? I mean, there's Bitcoin, the thing that they buy, but then there's Bitcoin, the protocol, like the whole ecosystem surrounding it. What was it like trying to talk to them about the ecosystem?

yeah, I think that my sons and my dad owned it with the idea of the number go up like, you know, it was during the time that it was really, hitting its all time high, um, before the bear market and so I think that's really all they were thinking about. And, and so, as I was learning, um, I was sharing with them and my dad, I mean, I think part of why freedom is so important to me has to do with the values that my dad, has passed along to me And so sharing with him that, that you could own it sovereignly and the freedom aspects. I mean, he, he kind of like got that immediately. And I think that also my kids are pretty indoctrinated with the importance of freedom from both their father and I. And so it wasn't actually hard talking to my family about it. My mom, who's probably the least technical or, you know, the least, um, to be like delving into that world. I remember we had a long layover in an airport and I had become obsessed with Bitcoin. It was basically all I could think about. And I wanted to just, I was just consuming and learning more and learning a whole bunch of that time. And I shared with her and after two hours sitting at, this restaurant at the airport, she's like, well, how do I buy some Bitcoin? And so, and then, and, you know, I told her how you could buy a KYC and non KYC and the different ways to, hold it. Um, so, both my parents own Bitcoin now, not just my mom. And I've also convinced my dad to get rid of all of the other tokens, including Ethereum, because he now understands the whole difference. Uh, and it's all Bitcoin now. And, I got them in cold storage, you know, and have moved them along quite a way. But they haven't been the hard ones. It's, it's like friends. That I bring it up with and I have a whole bunch of friends in the freedom community that I don't, I think maybe they think we're going to go back to a gold standard or that, you know, somehow the internet is going to go down or electricity is going to go down for eternity and we're going to all be living caveman style again. And they, they are very hard to convince, um, but I do, talk with them about like the, yeah. Possibility of the CBDC and the, you know, Bitcoin is your escape hatch and we live in a digital world and, you know, I know that we're used to things being very hackable and, very Fragile kind of in the digital world, but Bitcoin is different because it's decentralized and really the only way to shut it down is if, all of the computers that are running nodes across the world are shut off forever and that that's just not likely. It's highly, highly, highly improbable. And so, they're going to want a currency that they can, um, use digitally. In our world, and not get trapped in a CBDC, which I hope doesn't occur or gets rejected. But of course, you want to plan and have something to have an alternative. So that's kind of how I've orange pilled my freedom friends, my kind of more for lack of a better word, normie friend group, their reaction is often like, Bitcoin, like that's, uh, that uses a bunch of energy, and it's really bad for the environment. I get that all the time. I also get, um, it's not real it's fake money. Um, And I also get, um, well, that's only for like criminals and money launderers, of course, then I have to like explain a lot and I try not to overwhelm them and I do it in little bits here and there and kind of say, if you want to learn more, just let me know, and they do at their own times, then they will come back to me and be like, I really do want to learn more and I've helped some Bitcoin meetups in Vermont with my friends and, and then just have many, uh, a conversation over a beer or, or a dinner with people. So I'm actively orange pilling everybody in my sphere.

Yeah. And sometimes it's very rewarding and a lot of times it's very frustrating.

Yeah. I would say that initially I didn't have a lot of patience and I get very like kind of frustrated. And, defensive of Bitcoin. And I realized that if I was going to bring people into Bitcoin, I had to be very patient and also kind of let them come to me when they were ready after giving them, you know, some juicy little tidbits here and there that might be intriguing and kind of knowing my audience, like what was intriguing to my, my more liberal set of friends is that no, it's actually. Really good for the environment and it could be a huge, way for us to, to build a renewable energy infrastructure. And it also is able to, um, use energy sources that would otherwise be wasted. So I kind of work on that environmental aspect with them and then my freedom friends, I mentioned the CBDC. So it's kind of knowing your audience and what's going to intrigue them and get them to want to know more.

Yeah, you, you mentioned the word freedom several times, in regards to your friends, your dad, your husband, I feel like there's a story there. Why is freedom such a big value for you?

Um, well, my dad, he was, uh, he owned several businesses, he was a general contractor, and I feel like he always was feeling like the state and the federal government were just like putting too much on him as a, an employer and taking too much of what he was earning and he was always kind of resentful of that. And, um. And he would also say things like you really don't own your house because if you don't pay your property taxes, the government can take it from you. Um, and, so he was always kind of railing against the system in that way. And then my ex husband was, a huge, uh, pro medical marijuana, anti state kind of person. And so, I think that I had, a lot of, like... Freedom inclinations from those two influences and then during COVID, I, I guess that's really when the light for me, uh, because as my background, I said, was in science, my doctorate's in microbiology and molecular genetics. And when I saw the response to COVID, it just, it didn't make any sense to me. And then, as soon as the government was like, we're going to shut down for two weeks. I'm like, it is not going to be two weeks. This is like, a lot of the freedom grabs they did after 9 11. I mean, I remember noticing that back then, all the freedoms we were losing. And, I've been practically resentful of going through TSA every time I have since, which has been many and thinking it's ridiculous. We're still like doing some of these things. And so I was thinking, you know, it's not going to be two weeks. It's going to be a very long time and then Vermont was extremely, extremely, um, what's the word for it, uh, compliant. They were very, very compliant. And so I felt so alone because I was the only one looking around saying, this is insane. This is not how you, how you should react and deal with a respiratory virus. Everybody's eventually going to get this no matter how much we lock down and how long we lock down. It's a respiratory virus. and, you know, because it was this small thing that people couldn't see it was just so fear driven and it was the same thing with 9 11 after 9 11 the whole fear narrative around, um, terrorism, and it was just used to take people's freedoms away and, and our government, I feel, I felt ever increasingly since then is, it's just become like a cancer on our country and we've just our government has gone further and further away from the values that this country was founded on. And, um, so COVID, I think just woke up the freedom and love for the freedom lover in me, um, in a huge way. And, um, Here I was in Vermont, like, one of four people that weren't complying. I did find four other people and we met weekly to keep our sanity during COVID. It was just, it was rough. And now, but now we have a really kind of a, I would say, a much more robust, like, what I call our freedom community. And we're all networked together and I helped start an organization that helped get us networked together. Um, And so should that happen again, the, the minority won't feel so alone in Vermont. We'll have each other. Hopefully that kind of thing doesn't happen again, but you know, it's probably likely.

Yeah, that's, that's a can of worms that we can, we go in there, we'll never come out. Um, so going back to Bitcoin, since going down the bitcoin rabbit hole, what are the different areas of your life that you have started to look at differently?

well, I would say from a financial, uh, point of view, I have, since acquired Bitcoin through various means, mining, KYC, non KYC, to the degree that I feel like a sense of comfort going forward into the future and a sense of hope. And, and you hear a lot about the word hope, uh, connected with Bitcoin and, um, I think that's what it's given me, especially after the very dark time of COVID where, it was so easy to go down the other rabbit hole of, of all the, the kinds of things that might be coming down the pipeline that, you feel hopeless and you feel powerless and Bitcoin makes you feel hopeful and like you have some power, And it's, it's very much changed my outlook, for my work, um, as we mentioned before we started recording, I work in higher education and access to higher education is very important to me, but it's changed my outlook because now I realize with our fiat currency and our debt, I mean, things are so broken and, and, you know, with The vast majority of people that have gotten poorer and poorer versus the 1 percent of the 0. 1 percent that have gotten richer and richer, like this chasm is just, it can't be, um, fixed at this point with anything, I think, but Bitcoin. And until, things come back into balance with people tending toward Bitcoin as a sound money and as a base layer to a new financial system, the folks that I work with, I don't think that they're just going to be able to change their lives by attaining a college degree. I think that, they're working within a system that's so broken that that system needs to be fixed first. So, I mean, I really would like to work in some capacity with a Bitcoin only company I'm going to a lot of conferences and building relationships with people, and I kind of feel like... You know, if you build the opportunities, it'll eventually come or maybe I'll have to start my own thing. But, um, I feel like I got, like I got one foot out of the higher education world because it's kind of like burst the bubble. It's made me feel like my job that won't make a difference because this isn't where fundraising to make college more accessible doesn't matter when the fiat system has screwed things up so badly. You know, I guess the other thing, Tali, I would add is that, working in philanthropy, the other realization I've had is that the people that are in a position to make large philanthropic gifts have benefited, they've been on the benefiting end of the fiat system. And to me, it's so appalling now to realize that, like. Now they're giving that money back to the other people that they essentially stole it from whether they were, they weren't like wittingly doing that, but they, but that is essentially the reality. And now they're giving it back to them with conditions and it just, it just has made me lose so much. So much of the inspiration of what originally drove me and my work and in fundraising in higher ed

So using your imagination anything is possible scenario What would you like to be able to do to help with higher ed in the future? Like anything is possible using Bitcoin or assuming Bitcoin is part of the picture.

Um, well, I mean, if anything was possible, I think like changing the economic majors and departments at higher ed would be really important. You know, they're all Keynesians pretty much with the occasional outlier who is an Austrian economist. And as you know, the economics departments really just back up the current system, the current fiat system. And so, if anything was possible, it would be orange filling those folks for 1st. But then also, seeing more academics who are orange pill, then understand it in general from all different disciplines, I think would be helpful. I mean, anything from journalism, um. To, uh, computer science, there's so many areas that if we had people that were orange pilled, um, it would really, I think, change the trajectory of students and the careers And the opportunities.

So I have four kids who are college age and we have this debate in our living room a lot, which is, is there a place for gen ed classes? most colleges today are requiring two years of general ed. we debate back and forth on the pros and cons of it. That it's two full years of your life. It's two years of education, living expenses, all that stuff, all added together. maybe they could be done in a more efficient way or a different way altogether The price tag is really high. And if you think about the fiat system, you know, when we talk about the money supply, one of the things that I never considered was the fact that it was being swelled through student loans, it just like in my mind, student loans and money supply were. It's like two completely separate things. That's what's happening. The student loans, the massive amount of student loans are contributing to the swelling of the money supply, which is diluting the value of our money right through inflation. And so it's like a double whammy for people who are going to college trying to better themselves to try to go for a better life something secure, something stable. But in the process of that, taking out student loans, we're diluting the value that's already in our pocket and what they will earn in the future as well. It's this weird kind of spiraling, like mutually feeding phenomenon going on.

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that, um, are a lot of things that are, I guess we could say broken about higher ed. I mean, the fact that they have becoming more and more administratively top heavy. The fact that it's an antiquated system where you have to come together physically in a classroom for teaching and learning to occur. That there's so many other resources and ways that people could be learning that are completely free and on the Internet. I mean, and, you see a lot of smaller colleges are going under. And I think that's a, that's just a natural consequence of our changing world. And, um, that'll probably continue to happen with, colleges that don't have, big endowments.

One of the other things that I never considered until I heard somebody talk about it was the fact that different majors should charge different tuition. Because you, if you have a creative writing major, why is she paying the same tuition as a. Computer science or engineering student major, because they require much more expensive equipment and set up than somebody who's just showing up with her laptop typing versus a philosophy student who's also just showing up to a lecture hall and debating each other, they don't require special building equipment set up nothing, but they're paying the same tuition rate. And when they graduate, the engineers, the computer science people, they're going to get are in the higher salary, these writing, philosophy majors, they're going to be the poor ones, right? They're most likely their income is going to be lower, but they're paying back the same amount of student loans, and obviously the building of the interest, and then the inequality starts from that point. Because once you get into debt, it's, it's a downhill, not even a spiral, like what they call, you push The car over the hill and it just picks up speed going down, but they're already going downhill when they graduate because they pay the same amount, same student loans, same interest, but one is going to be able to earn money faster to pay that down. And the other one's going to be stuck in there. So immediately. Yeah,

yeah, no, I completely agree. And I mean, as part of why, uh, the college I work for is. It's very much about access and affordability and, if my personally, if my kids had to take on debt to go to college. I would be having a different conversation with them, but I figure. I might as well spend that fiat currency now, because I would also say that even two years of gen eds, I mean, I completely agree with you, but on the other hand, colleges, it plays a role in our society and in the development of young people, but it doesn't have anything to do with like the academics and the classroom piece of it as well. So, and I think that well, my one son is in music, and I think that that's an area where. He really develop that through repetition and playing with better musicians and learning from better musicians. So he's getting a very different education than say my younger son will get. Um, but yeah, I wouldn't have them doing what they're doing. They were going to go into

a lot of debt. Yeah. And then we go into the whole legacy system, right? Like the people who can afford it without the debt versus the people who can not afford it without the debt. And, there are so many. And the thing is, it's compounding too. So if you go, it's sort of like that analogy with a car being pushed over the hill, it's compounding when you're going down your life's journey. If you start out with a ton of debt versus not a ton of debt. Right. Yeah, right.

No, I will readily admit that to a small degree, I, of course, am on the end that has benefited from the fiat system the system we're in right now. And I, and I, Bitcoin has been useful in reflecting on that in my own life for sure. But, what I want is sound money for everybody. So everybody can have. A higher time preference. And, um, did I get that right? The higher time preference of a good quarter,

uh, lower time, prefer a lower time

preference. I'm sorry. Why I always confuse that in my head. Um, a lower time preference and they can save and have hope for the future. I mean, that's what I really want for everyone. And to get back to a more balanced system where the disparities between this very small group that's amassing wealth and this very large group that is going over the cliff and their car is that those are brought back into balance and we have a middle class again and people can take pride in their work because that's the other thing about my work is like. At some point I have to realize that no, no amount of philanthropy is going to really solve the college affordability issue overall, just like no amount of social safety net programs are really going to, fix the ills of our society. Uh, it, it really all goes back to, to the money and fixing the money. And that's why Bitcoin gives me hope. And of course, I think all the developing countries and the third world that you don't have to convince that the utility of Bitcoin will get there first and get there last because, until we can no longer just print energy with our money, a lot of people aren't going to see, uh, they're going to be too, um, too advantaged by it. Right. The role that the US dollar plays in the world right now to see the utility of Bitcoin.

Yeah, I'm definitely Understanding that more and more and the crazy thing is I really consider myself an educated person until I enter the Bitcoin space and then I I realized that I was so ignorant and I knew nothing and since entering the Bitcoin space, I've spoken to people from literally all over the world and just understanding or just talking to them and getting the sort of the first person account of what's happening on the ground in those countries with the money inflation that is happening. Something that we have not experienced on this end and very hard to imagine how they're coping. And so when I talk to people who are doing okay, they are not in crisis mode. And. You know, obviously, if you're talking to somebody in crisis mode, that's a different conversation in America. But if you're talking to people who are not in crisis mode, it's exceptionally difficult to convince them to take a look at Bitcoin as a money standard, not as a trading vehicle, an investment vehicle. So I have definitely found that to, be our experience. So the question is how do we reach the young people? People our age, people who have lived a career or part of a career have seen recessions come and go and all the rollercoaster rides that the economy has taken. We can look back and if we're willing to look, we'll see the problems. For the young people, your children, my children, they're just at the beginning of the rollercoaster ride and they're looking forward. So the question is, how do we convince young people to critically look at what they are entering, the financial world that they are entering. What do you think?

Well, I guess I think that, That maybe we don't have to convince as many people as we think. I mean, I have learned so much about Bitcoin and Bitcoin has made me reflect on so much, but I'm not sure that everybody needs to do that. I mean, part of the lightning network really gives me a lot of hope because I see that as something that people end up using and they'll use it because it's a better system, not because they understand Bitcoin. And, you know, just like people use email and they don't understand how it works, but they use it because it was better than having to write something out by hand, put it in an envelope, address it, put a stamp on it, and then, get it to the post office or put it in the mailbox. Um, it's the same thing I think with the lightning network and I have a lot of hope as that gets built out that. Um, Hopefully that I mean, that will be adopted and used by people. And at some point, they might reflect that it runs on Bitcoin rails and but they don't necessarily need to go down the rabbit hole and become orange pill. To be users and I guess, um, the participants in the Bitcoin network.

So really quickly, in your own words, how would you explain to someone new to the Bitcoin space, the difference between Bitcoin and the Lightning Network?

Yeah, I mean, I, I use the phrase that the Lightning Network is a second layer, um, that that runs on top of Bitcoins. I use the bar tab analogy and explain the difference between the time that it takes for a transaction to settle on the base layer of Bitcoin on the blockchain versus the time it takes to settle it hence the name lightning at the speed of light on the lightning network and its final settlement and I talk about the fees and that this could replace Visa and MasterCard and it's, yeah. So I, I explained it as a, a second layer running on the Bitcoin layer, but then very quickly go to kind of the nuts and bolts of like, just imagine you have a bar tab and you're charging things all night while you don't, your lightning node is like a bar tab and you don't close out your bar tab until you're not using it anymore. And it's the same thing with a node, but, maybe even with a node, like your bar tab, you close out at the end of the night, a node you might leave open indefinitely. Yeah. Unless it's forced closed. Right. So, right.

Um, I was trying to explain the fees to my daughter, the one that finally decided that she was convinced. and, between college friends, if they go out to eat or if they grab an Uber, they would just Venmo each other. Right. It is like no big deal. Yeah. One time, my son as a joke, he, he and his friends decided to Venmo each other back and forth like four or five times the same meal. because they thought it was hilarious. I'll give you 40. No, I'm going to give it back to you 40. And at the end of that, he came home and he told me what happened. And I said, do you understand how much fees you paid while you're playing that joke with your friend? You know, I, what, what is Venmo like 2. 7 percent or something like that? Every time you send money, you're being charged. Do you understand that's happening? They didn't realize that was what's happening. Cause it's just a, it's not even the swipe of a credit card anymore. It's just. Right. It's, it's a touch button. So I was showing it to my daughter and I said, I said, look at this. Somebody bought something and we run a store. And so somebody bought something and 2. 9 percent of that amount went to the credit card company. Now I'm going to send you 5 to your Muun wallet, and that's, that's the lightning network through that. The lightning part of the moon wallet, moon wallet also has a Bitcoin side, but so I sent it to her and I said, look at that fee. Cause it, it tells you it was like 25 sats or something. I said, that's not even a fraction of a penny. And I send it to you. Now, if you has, if I had sent you 5 through Venmo, I would have been charged 2. 9%. 5, 2. 9 percent of 5 is not a big deal, but what if I send you 5, 000, right? Now we're starting to pay attention, right? And it's just something that, that they don't think about because it's just numbers. They don't see them on touch the money. You know, somebody said if we had, if all of our income was like wheat in the field and they were put into a wagon and every time we were taxed or we had to pay a fee, it came from. The wheat that they removed from our wagon, there will be a revolution because people's eyes will be opened to what's actually happening right now. They're just numbers that are just moving all around. And it's just, if you don't pay attention, it accumulates so fast and you don't even realize it's gone. It's gone to the banking institution or the routing system or whatever it is that they want to call it. But the fees are sucked out of the money that you work so hard to earn. And then just, yeah, here and there, just, you know, just sucked out,

use that. And I feel like young people just accept fees as that's just part the cost of doing business or just part of their world. They just accept it if, if they were to wake up to the fact that through Lightning, they don't have to be giving up that value. I think that could be huge. And I think that's huge for retailers too, right? I mean, they really, I think, notice it because they're paying a lot. If they're accepting credit card payments, they're paying a lot to the credit card companies. And I was even explaining to my massage therapist, like, it'll be great when you can, if you can take lightning payments, because then you won't be paying these credit card fees and you'll be paying fractions. Pennies on the dollar, and she was very interested in that. And I was explaining that, one method for onboarding retailers to, um, the lightning network that's out there is, the whole idea of the retailer offering a discount of some portion of those fees back to the customer to incentivize them to use the lightning network for payments. Yeah, I can't wait till it dematerializes Visa and MasterCard and that whole infrastructure. And then also, we'll talk to my kids about the centralized versus decentralized nature of, the traditional financial system versus Bitcoin, and why that is so important to being able to censor or shut down, Bitcoin, whereas like with Venmo, it seems like, A very similar digital money is digital money. Right. But then you explain like, well, they can just do what they want and they could just cut you off.

Yeah, definitely. So I have a story so my husband's uncle was running a bookstore and he was selling through, I think it was eBay at the time. This was a few years back and eBay was sending money to his PayPal account That's how he, he would pay his bills with it and he would receive payments with it. It's basically his bank. PayPal was his bank and somebody filed a complaint against him because of whatever reason. And his eBay store was immediately shut down. His PayPal account was completely shut down and he had no access to any money just like this. His entire livelihood was shut down. He could not buy groceries. He couldn't pay his electric bill. And it's, you think the money is yours, but it's not.

No, I mean, it's a similar thing with like the Canadian truckers rally just, amplified even more if government gets involved. You know, if they bring their full power and force to bear on the financial system, yeah, your money isn't your money. It's it can be gone like that or frozen or, it can just disappear.

Yeah, for sure. Um, any last suggestions, recommendations for women who are sitting on the fence about Bitcoin?

I would say just get off zero. It's so funny how I have several friends who I feel like have the knowledge. They, attest to me that they've been orange filled and they believe in Bitcoin, yet they can't somehow take that final step to purchase it. So, you know, no matter what the means is, you know, like purchase a little, some Bitcoin and get off zero, quit, quit.

I talked to someone the other day and she said, one day, there's going to come a day when you want to buy a Bitcoin and there's going to be non available because it's not unlimited like everything else out there. It is a limited, I mean, she was so good at creating that sense of urgency. Even I was listening to her recording afterwards. I was like, Oh my gosh, she's right. I got to go buy some more Bitcoin.

I know that that is a good tactic. And I'm, and they're like, but Bitcoin is so down, you know, from its all time high. And I'm like, yeah, that, that means it's a great time to buy.

Right. It's on sale.

Right. It's on sale. This is a wonderful time to

buy. Exactly. When I went down to 16, I was like, oh my gosh, what else can I sell around my house? So I can go buy

some 100%. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I want to thank you again for spending time with us and for sharing your story with us. It was wonderfully fun for me. Thank you so much. Well,

thank you. Thanks for reaching out. And I'm just honored to be on your podcast. I really appreciate

it.