Is America facing a bus supply and availability crisis?

I'm Paul Comfort, and on this episode of Transit Unplugged, we speak with

the executive director of America's Bus Coalition, Ed Redfern, and also

their Washington advocate for the organization Joel Rubin about the

supply chain concern that many public transit agencies are facing right now.

And we bring in Julia Castillo and Brooke Ramsey, the Executive Director

and Business Manager for HIRTA the Heart of Iowa Regional Transit Agency,

and they talk about the troubles they've been having with large price

increases and availability of buses.

So much so that they've led a multi state coalition with a request to

the Federal Transit Administration to grant a Buy America waiver

for an offshore bus manufacturer.

We also take a look at the supply side and we speak with Patrick Scully, who

was Chief Commercial Officer for one of America's largest bus suppliers.

He gives some ideas on interim solutions while the market, he says, works

its way out after this post pandemic period of supply chain challenges.

All this on Transit Unplugged.

We're excited today to have a great in depth interview with four leading

experts here in the United States talking about one of our biggest challenges,

which is buses, the lack of buses.

And we've got a great panel put together by the bus coalition.

and so we're going to dive in today into some of the challenges we're having on

the supply side and what some possible solutions are when it comes to making

sure we have enough buses, both, you know, battery electric, hydrogen,

and the old traditional diesel buses.

So great to have with us my good friend, Ed Redfern, who's the executive

director of the bus coalition.

Ed, thank you for helping to put together this panel for us.

Talk about this hot topic.

Uh, we, we appreciate you having us on.

Our, our concern, of course, is the availability of buses, the problems that

systems, like HIRTA in Des Moines is having getting bus, any buses, at all.

And that, problem is a national problem.

It is not local to just one or two systems.

It's, clearly becoming a, real, issue in providing service.

To the people that all our transit systems, not only in the rural

areas, but, in, paratransit service around the United States.

So, the bus coalition, which I am executive director of and started, 10

years ago, we have gotten involved, but in support a lot with, uh, CTAA.

they've kind of taken the lead on this issue because so many, all, I guess all of

their systems are basically hurt by what's going on in the industry at this time.

Yeah.

I remember, I think it was at the CTAA conference where you first came up to

me and said, Paul, this is a real issue.

We need to, we need to focus on this.

And I was able to go to your Bus Coalition meeting at APTA Expo in Orlando this

year, a big group, a massive group.

And, and it was also a focus there.

And just, uh, before we go any further, give us 30 seconds on the Bus

Coalition, who you are, how big you are.

It's a very impressive organization.

We, the bus coalition started about 10 years ago when they cut the,

funding for bus transits, uh, programs by about 60 percent and, uh, a number

of 17, transit systems from around the country, I put them together, we sat

down and we started this coalition.

We focus on one thing and that is, This is bus transit funding.

we, we agree that all transit modes and, uh, programs need to be lifted together.

And we, we tried to, and we got in, the last authorization bill, a pretty sizable

increase in bus funding, and at the same time, set it up so that we were back at

the 20 percent level for bus systems.

From all transit funds.

That's good.

And how many members do you have and where they spread geographically?

Well, they're all over the United States.

Uh, we're, uh, I think, 48 of the states we have about 900 members.

and , of that, about 200 of them are paying members.

Others are just regular members have joined and agree

with what we're trying to do.

And you mentioned some of the work you do is in Washington, D.

C., or most of it is.

And Joel Rubin, you help them do that, right?

Uh, introduce yourself for us.

Yeah, you bet.

Thanks so much, Paul.

I really appreciate the opportunity.

so my name is Joel Rubin.

I work for the Bus Coalition.

I'm their Washington representative, which basically means they're boots

on the ground here in Washington, D.

C., and been fighting and working with Ed and our Bus Coalition board to make

sure that folks on Capitol Hill and the administration understand the value of

buses, understand the benefits that bus transit service provides to communities

across the country, and in urban or rural and suburban areas and, um, like Ed

said, our main focus is on getting those resources back to where they were and

where they need to be for bus transit, um, to get funding for bus replacement,

bus expansion and bus facilities.

That's great.

Thank you.

Thank you for being here with us.

We're going to talk about, um, some of the areas that are solutions

such as a Buy America waiver with you a little bit later.

Also excited to have with us Julie Castillo from HIRTA, the

heart of Iowa Transit Agency.

Welcome, Julia.

Thank you, Paul.

Hi, I am from HIRTA, and we are located in central Iowa.

We service seven counties that are all rural.

They surround the Des Moines metro area, and we cover about 4, 000 square miles.

Wow, that's massive!

It is massive.

Um, we have about 70 vehicles in our fleet, and we have, since post

pandemic, we now have, about 60 employees, um, including the drivers.

Very good.

And we're going to talk to you about some of the issues you've been having,

uh, trying to get buses and Brooke Ramsey, you've been at the, the lead

of this, trying to get buses for them.

Tell us about yourself and what you do there at HIRTA.

Hi, Paul.

Thank you.

so I'm the business manager at HIRTA.

I've worked for Julia for 13 years, believe it or not.

And.

I've done a lot of things, uh, at the agency that's common in rural systems, um,

but one of the things I'm responsible for is heading the procurement of our fleet

and ordering, the vehicles for our system.

So, it has been very challenging, as you've heard from all of us here

today, and we're looking forward to trying to find some resolutions.

Tell us about, I mean, while we're here talking to you, tell us

about the challenges you've been having.

What, what are you doing and what are the issues you're

facing and trying to get buses?

So as an example, um, we ordered vehicles two years ago and

our ve our orders were canceled by the manufacturer stating that they could

no longer make the vehicles at the price that they had in the contracts

so we had to work with our state DOT on how to address this issue, and

they were able to secure new contracts that caused a delay in delivery.

Some of the vehicles still have not been, completed.

We just received 9 of 18 vehicles that we ordered 2 years ago, and

Julia did downsize the fleet, as she mentioned, during the pandemic.

So we also looked at the number of vehicles and the type of vehicles

that we were using in service, trying to help curb some of this issue.

So, with the Ford Transits that we started to order, those

increased in cost by over $20,000.

With the cutaway buses is particularly challenging and getting

deliveries, but also with the cost.

So a vehicle that we ordered before COVID was about $100,000.

And now that same vehicle is over $175000.

And that does not include everything it takes for us to make

the vehicle ready for service.

Graphics, radios.

So you're probably only able to buy half as many as

you thought you had a budget for

Yeah, we're, and we're starting to talk about that too.

If, if we have vehicles, that we have through the 5339 program

that are eligible to be replaced, how are we going to handle this?

Because even the amount of money we requested on 5339 grants, Doesn't

meet the amount of money it's going to cost to replace them.

Brooke, what is the age of your fleet?

Yeah, Ed, that's a great point.

the state of Iowa has the second oldest fleet in the nation.

And within Iowa, HIRTA has the second oldest fleet.

before COVID, our fleet was probably sitting about 60

percent past its useful life.

And as of today, we're at 88% . And we're not talking a little past useful life.

We're talking three times past the useful life.

So if a vehicle should be in service, um, five years, we're running them 13

years before they're replaced, and this was before this manufacturing crisis.

So now we've got these vehicles, they're 15 years old.

And we can't get the replacements.

That's something.

Or parts.

Or parts, right?

Yeah, or parts.

And Joel, is this a problem that you're seeing all across the country?

Yeah, absolutely.

Paul, it's, it's pretty alarming that, you know, and we, as Ed

mentioned, we work with CTAA.

CTAA did a, uh, a study, um, a few months back and looked at the supply chain

challenges in the cutaway marketplace.

And what they found were over 50 percent of the orders that were out

there for cutaways were canceled, like.

Julie and Brooke mentioned, so just canceled, across all 50 states.

and then 50 percent of that, 50 percent of the states had canceled contracts.

Yeah.

And then in addition to that, there's currently a 20, 000 bus

the cutaway bus backlog that's anticipated to jump up to about

26, 000 cutaway backlog by 2026.

Just, it's really difficult to get them.

The delivery times are two to three years and the cost, as Julie and

Brooke were mentioning, going from 90, 000 to 170, 000 for just the

diesel cutaway is significant.

But in addition to that, if you want to get an electric cutaway, HIRTA put

out a bid for an electric cutaway, uh, which lasts five to seven years

useful life, and the cost of that electric cutaway was 388, 000 for a

bus that lasts five to seven years.

It's a challenge that we, as a bus coalition, see all of these

new resources coming in through the infrastructure package.

We want federal money to go towards be spent wisely and go

towards needs in the community.

But with these accelerated costs and with the slow delivery times, our

members are getting really worried about, uh, really implementing the

law that, uh, the way members of Congress wanted it to be implemented.

Julia, what is happening locally, like politically

to your funding sources?

When you come to them with these issues, what are you hearing from them?

they're struggling With other types of issues.

And so the funding that we typically got for match money for the vehicles

is slowly dwindling and that becomes creates another problem.

And I think what I really want to say.

As the supply chain issue, big problem, but what that's going to entail if

we don't come up with some type of a solution is smaller transit systems,

especially in the rural areas where people depend on us for the services

because there is no Lyfts and Ubers and other types of places for them to go.

Um, if we don't have buses to transport people in, we're going

to have to cut our services.

And so this is like a major issue and, you know, if we're putting 13 year old buses

on the road, we can't get parts for them.

And so they're just sitting in lots, you know, because we can't use them.

We can't buy new buses, whether they're gas or whether they're

electric, we can't get them.

So that was part of our decision to go with smaller like Ford Transits.

Which are great, but then you, that, requires more drivers, which we

also know there's usually a driver shortage where we go, even though

they don't have to have a CDL.

That's still an issue too, so it's just perpetuating itself, and it's going to

eventually hurt the people that we're here to serve the most if we do not get

a handle on how this crisis, which I will call it a crisis, doesn't have a

solution at the end, which is why, HIRTA took the lead on creating a coalition

of sorts to go after a Buy America waiver for an electric vehicle that

could help us get out of this situation.

you have, what, 15, uh, electric buses you

can put on the road today?

You've got the federal money sitting there for those?

We have 15 that we have been awarded, uh, contracts on, but we

don't have any orders out yet because it doesn't make sense for us to pay

$380,000 for a cutaway electric vehicle that's going to last us five years.

I don't think that's the best use of the, of the money, but yes,

we could do that, which would help our situation drastically.

But that, we're just not there yet, unless this Buy America waiver

should come through, which we're still very hopeful that it will.

And Brooke, a cutaway bus for, maybe some people don't

know what that terminology is, how many passengers would that hold?

Well, that depends, you know, on the vehicle, but that

could be anywhere from, for HIRTA, that could be anywhere from 10 to

18 people, um, some of them 20.

Right.

Just wanted to put out there, it's a midsize, smaller, it's

actually a smaller midsize bus.

Yeah, people tend, typically associate it with paratransit

services, paratransit type of vehicle.

Um, I do just want to add a little bit to the context of the cost of these cutaways.

And I know Joel mentioned $380,000, and that's right, that's just

for the vehicle, that's not for the charging infrastructure.

So we're talking another, you know, six figure investment to charge the vehicle.

And that doesn't take into account, when the batteries, the batteries have

a separate useful life than the vehicle.

And so what happens when this vehicle for HIRTA Is expected, you know,

it's a five year useful life, but.

History tells me that bus is going to be in our fleet for 13 years.

If that, if that bus is in our fleet for 13 years, those batteries

are not going to last 13 years.

And then how do we replace those?

Because that's separate, that's a separate dollar amount.

So These are some of the challenges that really kind of drove us, like Julia

mentioned, creating the consortium with some of our peers in Washington and

California, because we're all facing the same challenges and the same concerns.

And Joel, one of the answers that you mentioned earlier,

one of the possible solutions is a Buy America waiver because there are

manufacturers evidently outside the US that maybe could help us, you know,

supply some buses to Americans, but they don't meet Buy America requirements.

Is that what's right?

Is that what's happening?

Yeah, Paul, there's, there are manufacturers that are,

uh, based in Europe and outside of the United States that are interested

in coming to the United States.

Um, and that could be 1 possible solution to address some

of the supply chain issues.

Um, so we've been working with HIRTA on their Buy America waiver request,

which was submitted to the Federal Transit Administration in August.

And what we were really excited to see was we, uh, with their application that

they They went along with, with folks from Washington State and California,

uh, CTAA organized a rapid 48 hour letter writing campaign to try to get other

state transit associations to support this waiver request and It's a little

unusual for State Transit Associations to, support a Buy America waiver request.

You know, there's some political implications there.

Within 48 hours, we only had a 48 hour period for when CTAA first put

out a call for letters of support for the consortium's waiver request.

Within 48 hours, we had 21 State Transit Associations sign on to that letter, which

was a full throated support letter, for HIRTA and the consortium's request for a

Buy America waiver because they all know they're seeing these impacts all across

the country and they wanted to be part of this effort to, to, uh, get this limited.

Temporary waiver approved so that there could be some additional entrants from the

European marketplace and elsewhere to come to the United States and start building

that manufacturing base and I think meeting the spirit of Buy America, what

basically the waiver is looking to do.

is to bring more domestic manufacturing to the United States, and that if

it's a temporary waiver, that would allow those companies to come here,

set up manufacturing, but give them some time to set that up, um,

and then ultimately comply with Buy America within a time period.

Um, so we think it's good for the industry, but we also think it's

good for the short term crisis that transit systems across the country are

facing, and obviously those 21 state transit associations agreed as well.

Ed, the, um, the other issue that's happening right now is

there's billions of dollars, some of it you fought for us to get to,

uh, purchase zero emission buses, and now we're having another crisis

when it comes to the manufacturers.

Tell us about that.

Joel, go ahead.

Yeah, so it is a little, so I remember November 2021 when

the infrastructure law was signed, uh, shortly thereafter, there was

an APTA conference and everybody was so excited about the opportunities

associated with all the new revenue that we've been advocating for for years.

Um, so, you know, going into.

Implementation of the infrastructure package, we were all pretty excited,

but then you started to see all of these complications with COVID,

the pandemic and the supply chain issues that were still lingering.

And it impacts the small bus marketplace and still impacts the

large bus marketplace as well.

On the large bus space, we saw Nova bus pull out of New York.

We saw Proterra declare bankruptcy.

So we really only have 2 major.

Uh, suppliers of, uh, bus manufacturer in the United States

and then the small bus marketplace.

You're seeing a limited marketplace as well.

So, yes, we're so excited to all the investments that happened in the

infrastructure package, but there are some really nasty headwinds

that we're running against as well.

Yeah, those two companies are New Flyer and Gillig, right?

The other two that are remaining to meet Buy America, that are, uh, that are not

bankrupt or pulling out of the market.

Now, the one company, Proterra, was purchased, uh, or they're in

the process of being purchased by another manufacturer, so

we'll see what happens there.

Ed, wrap it up for us.

Uh, where are we at and where are we going?

Well, we need the FTA to quickly respond to the,

Buy America waiver request.

They can get The one company that Julia, uh, and the consortium put together, the

winning bid is a company, uh, from Turkey.

Oh yeah, I saw that bus at the CTA Expo.

I got a tour of that bus.

That was a cool looking bus, man.

it really is.

And it's an actual bus.

and it'll last twice as long.

But the key to it is getting that Buy America waiver.

Currently, they can ship those and have them between three and six months.

So, that is, and it's happening today.

There was one, uh, one system purchased with local funds.

Fifteen of them.

And they're all delivered.

They're there getting ready to go on the road.

We have another system of three that were purchased with local funds.

They're on the road now . So those buses are coming in and we just need to get

the FTA to move ahead, get this process going because there are a hell of a

lot of voters out there that can't get service because we don't have the buses.

And that's what bothers me and what concerns me is that we are going to

have a real crisis across the country because we can't get people to dialysis

or we can't get them to their doctor.

And those are the people that we have to serve and FTA needs to move and move

today on moving that process forward.

They've had it for several months right now . But the timing is

now that they need to move ahead.

Julie, I'll give you the final word as the Executive

Director of the agency that's helping to lead this coalition.

Yeah, I will second what Ed says.

I think we just need the government to move forward with this Buy America waiver.

we did go, the winning bid was a purpose built bus, which also

alleviates some additional issues, and it also has a longer battery life.

And it is about hundreds of thousands of dollars cheaper, than

what we could get another bus for.

So I would just, encourage those that have the power that be, that do

this as a temporary waiver so that we can get Another bus company or two

or three or however many we can go after to come to the United States

so that there's more competition, which will be better for everyone.

And it doesn't just affect the small systems.

These types of buses are also going to affect anyone who provides paratransit

type services, if they use the smaller vehicles and that's a lot of our larger.

Um, transit agencies as well, so this is a nationwide problem that

has got to get fixed, or those most vulnerable are going to be the, the

ones that suffer the most, and that's something we want to try to avoid at all

costs.

Well, thank you, Julia, Brooke, Ed, and Joel for bringing this

issue to the fore, and uh, thank you for educating our listeners on your

viewpoints on these important issues.

It's a great hearing from, uh, some of the folks from the bus coalition and

HIRTA about some of the issues they're having when it comes to acquiring buses.

We have billions of dollars now that Congress has given us for these buses,

but there is some supply chain issues.

And so I wanted to talk to the supply side, uh, and so I had with me one of our

industry stalwarts, a good friend of mine and, and APTA leader, et cetera, Patrick

Scully, who works with Complete Coachworks

And, uh, I ran into them.

I think it was at APTA, wasn't it, Patrick?

You all had an interception there.

We started talking about it.

I said, you know what?

I should get you guys on the podcast too to talk about.

Your perspective on this.

So welcome to the show, Patrick.

Thank you, Paul.

And thank you so much for inviting us on.

And we're all great fans, including not only the podcast, but everything

else you do with music and food.

So yeah, it's, it's a interesting time, Paul, a bit of a paradox, right?

Where we've got.

almost record funding for, zero emission equipment and

new buses, uh, rolling stock.

And yet we've got challenges with the supply side that, you know,

primarily was COVID based, when it's taken, it's a long tailwind, uh, for

the supply side to come out of that.

And, uh, so we've got a gap, right?

We've got, this period that we found ourselves in the last couple

years and, and, and maybe just a few more months, hopefully.

Uh, or, or short of a year that, you know, supply chain's trying to catch

up from where, uh, we were before COVID and, and, uh, achieving deliveries

for customers for specifically buses.

But, you know, the way I see it, I call it bridging a gap because,

uh, it's going to be short term.

I think because the, um.

Uh, market is resilient enough to be able to come out of it, has to

be, obviously, it's a partnership.

But, you know, we've seen solutions that may not be on the forefront

of, everybody's list, and that's why we want to take the time to

talk with you about those solutions.

So Patrick, give us some of the solutions you mentioned.

So, uh, some of the problems that folks from HIRTA mentioned were, um, long

delays in getting buses delivered once they order them, they also mentioned

that the costs have gone up dramatically to buy some of these buses, 50 or 70

percent sometimes from kind of what their pre pandemic price was, so if a

transit agency finds themselves kind of face with these kind of challenges.

What are some suggestions you might have for them?

Yeah, and I think, as I mentioned a moment

ago, Paul, things will stabilize.

Um, increases have certainly been there for all the reasons we know.

I think, you know, some of them are here to stay.

But the industry will stabilize.

But in the end, in the interim, all right, what are those solutions?

first and foremost, refurbishment or overhaul of existing equipment allows

agencies to spend money already FTA funds for new buses that they can

deploy and use to take their equipment, refurbish equipment, powertrain,

seating, and basically allow those buses to last another 6 or 7 years.

At much quicker time period, it can be done within six to nine months and

at essentially, a few hundred thousand dollars, which is very significant

reduction from the price of new vehicles.

So that would be like a full size bus that they could do that with?

Correct.

And you can do it with, with medium sized buses.

The challenge with, uh, smaller buses, shuttle buses.

The cost of refurbishment tends to get away from itself versus new, but full

size equipment, whether it's 30, 35, 40, 60 foot vehicles, um, it all works

and is a, certainly a viable option.

That's interesting, because I think, you know, a lot of

people may think of mid life cycle overhauls for light rail vehicles, but

maybe haven't considered it for buses.

Yeah, some do, some have done it in house, but

it is certainly a viable option.

The other items, uh, that, uh, the other item that is also viable

is to procure used equipment.

Okay.

Uh, they are available in the market, and essentially it's short term approach.

obviously it would be for, you know, whether it's three to five years, but good

quality used equipment is available in the market, available in the market, as are

leasing options for the same equipment.

So you've got these options that are there as agencies face this dilemma

of, hey, I've got them on order.

Long lead time.

Big money.

Bigger money.

What can they do in the interim?

There's clear solutions that are available.

That's interesting.

That's good.

I don't think everyone is, is, uh, was fully aware of all that.

Um, where do you think this goes long term?

Do you, when you say you think that, well, that we're going to work our

way out of this, I mean, on the electric bus side, we just, we used

to have four manufacturers in the U.

S.

One just, uh, you know, pulled out of the market completely or said they

were going to, and the other declared bankruptcy and is in the process of going

through those bankruptcy proceedings.

How do you see this stabilizing, uh, if we have really only, right now,

two to three viable electric bus manufacturers going forward, which is

where everybody wants to go, right?

Either there or hydrogen.

Yeah, and this, you know, the big overarching, I call it, umbrella

is this path to zero emission, right?

Yeah.

Uh, we've had to make the change, whether it's on the agency side of how to run,

um, zero emission equipment, or on the supply side, uh, to, you know, get the,

call it the production machine, revved up to produce, uh, electric vehicles.

certainly, Paul, it's, it's, it's a paradox, as I mentioned earlier,

that you've got record funding, and yet the supply side is shrinking.

Where will it go long term?

Market forces will, will allow it to stabilize, whether it's

new entrants that come in.

I think the existing manufacturers have stabilized things that are

on the path to, stable production.

But it's still going to take a number of months, if not another year or so, to

get back to that level where we were pre COVID, you know, it's, it's tough, right?

And I, I do see that, uh, you know, the industry is taking steps.

I know Dorval Carter has a, uh, a task force underway that are

identifying solutions, you know,

APTA, APTA sponsored that and the head of New York and

the head of Chicago, our two biggest systems are helping to lead it.

Yeah.

And I think you'll see elements come out of, That task force, the industry

will correct as I, as I said, it has to, it's, you know, things have

happened before in the past, whether it's 10, 20, 30 years ago, we've had

this up and down on the supply side.

I've, I've seen it personally, but together with the solutions

that we've identified here.

and bridging that gap until we get back to stabilization, the industry

is, is, uh, resolute and, and solid enough to be able to withstand this,

uh, kind of correction that we're in.

Gotcha.

Patrick, are there any other solutions you can talk to us about?

Yeah, I think there's one last item to bring up and that is,

uh, the converting of existing fleet to zero emission, um, propulsion.

again, available to market, take existing equipment, take out the

internal combustion engine components and powertrain and add in, electric

powertrain components and batteries.

And again, at half the cost of a new piece of equipment and done in

a time frame of six to nine months, which is much, much quicker than,

you know, waiting for a new bus.

So, you know, a number of options identified, Paul.

Bridging the gap is the key.

The industry is resolute.

We'll see our way clear.

Wow.

Great information, Patrick.

Thank you so much.

Thanks, Paul.

Appreciate the time.

This is Tris Hussey editor of the Transit Unplugged podcast.

Thank you for listening to this week's show with our special

guests, Ed Redfern, Joel Rubin.

Julia Castillo.

Brooke Ramsey and Patrick Scully.

Now coming up next week on the show, we have Eddie Van Stein

and Wendy Weedon talking about the importance of rural transit.

As Julia and Brooke mentioned, public transit is essential in many rural areas

for people to get to appointments and just connect with everything in life.

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