00:00:06.169 --> 00:00:14.049
We talk a lot on this podcast about the lack of relationship between alignment and injury.
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And in that regard, we're kind of unique.
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I mean, there's one or two other people out there talking about it.
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Shout out to Adam McAtee.
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But most of the plot is metaverse. And I think you have the major players in the industry.
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Still very much grounded in alignment protocols for safety.
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And one of our favorite instructors here at Breathe Education happens to be
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on the other end of the microphone.
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And I think he's standing on a pile of about three soapboxes.
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Right now. And that's, uh, that's my friend Heath Lander.
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Yeah, that's me. I, um, well, I've, I've brought the topic today and,
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uh, I've slept badly while chewing on it.
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Um, I was driving, I had a long drive yesterday, time to think,
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listen to some podcasts and I was listening to some, some people talk about this idea of, um,
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surplus value and, or negative value and they were they were talking about in
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terms of raising children and that,
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while you're raising a child they're a negative value
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on society you know and by nature you know almost by
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definition they you know when they
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call 9-1-1 or when they get on the tube or when
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they go to school other people are putting value into
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the society that they're drawing down on and this
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the premise of this was that at some point that has to transition
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tip over as you become a functioning
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adult you start to create surplus
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value that puts back into the society and uh
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and i personally align with that and that's what i've seen in you know being
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a parent i think that's a valuable way to think about it and then what struck
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me was i've personally always been very careful to preface any discussion around a comparison between.
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The evidence-based approach that, as you say, ourselves at Breathe and others, some others,
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do the work to implement, which is hard work because the evidence changes and
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it means your education structure has to evolve and change and you've got to
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do a whole lot of work in terms of upskilling and rebuilding programs when you do it.
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We've done that and I've always tiptoed around making a comparison between that
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and education structures that aren't but.
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My epiphany while I was driving is I just, I actually think that what I see people,
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the transformation that we see instructors go through when they come and understand
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evidence-based, an evidence-based approach to Pilates versus a non-evidence-based approach.
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A takes them a really long time and they're
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not it's not because they're not cognitively agile they've
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just been indoctrinated as one is in an
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institution with concepts and beliefs that are then hard to shift especially
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when they're associated with large financial investment and time investment
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and they're coming out of education
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providers that teach them this still teach them this to this day,
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and they're passing them on to their clients.
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And what struck me was, you know, one of the things that makes me feel like
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my life has been a surplus value is that by helping people actually become stronger,
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more flexible, and more skillful so they can live healthier,
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happier, longer lives, which is my little mantra,
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which we've talked about before, and it's not an unreasonable claim based on the evidence,
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is that I'm helping, not just,
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i'm giving an it's an opportunity for me to
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create surplus value and if i make someone healthier happier
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and fit flexible stronger more skillful etc etc they can raise better kids they
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can make more money they can run better businesses they can do their job better
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they can live longer they can be less of a drain on the health services you
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know they all of that is surplus value in the community.
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And then if I then was to flip what I do back to what I was taught,
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which is to tell people that moving to end range is dangerous.
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That moving under load such that your form dissipates is dangerous, then I'm actively...
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I'm actively reducing the value that I could put back into the community via that person.
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And all of a sudden, I just thought, fuck it. This is bullshit.
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We're part of this industry that's growing around the world.
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And most of the injury, like the big players, are still telling people that
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you should move in a particular way under nominal loads.
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And your breath pattern or your muscle firing pattern is more important than
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how much load you're under or the range of motion that you're in or the skill
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that you scale up to bigger movements so that you feel more confident in your daily life.
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And I just thought, fuck it, that's negative value. That's a crime against humanity,
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to be purporting that horse shit to people who are passionate, passionate people,
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instructors, being taught things that are completely out of date you know there's
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just no excuse as far as and i mean i know i'm on the soapboxes there but i
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just can't see that there is any excuse for not updating your teaching structures in 2025.
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And I just feel like I'm sick of saying, oh, look, all movement's good movement
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because yes, all movement's good movement.
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But in terms of creating surplus value in other humans, some movement is measurably
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better than other movement.
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And that's movement that actually makes them stronger, more flexible, more skillful.
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So if you knowingly withhold that information because you don't have the energy
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to change your education structures or you're too calcified in your thinking
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to admit that you were wrong,
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like someone needs to put a firecracker up your ass and tell
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you to move on and let the new generation come through like fuck
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that you know this is other people's health
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that you're fucking with for the sake of what ultimately is
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money and laziness yeah that's what i was thinking i think um i mean i i broadly
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agree i think there's a lot of myths i guess i'm less skeptical or less cynical
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about human motivations there.
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I think it's just, you know, a combination.
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I don't think people are, you know, willfully misleading people.
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I think it's just kind of intellectual laziness.
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Um, you know, if you're balanced body or start Pilates and you've got, you know,
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20,000 copies of Emmanuel in print, it's, it's really hard to just,
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you know, make a quick little edit and go, you know what, actually neutral spy is not that important.
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It turns out, um, you know, you've got like, you know,
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5,000 instructor trainers around the world to, you know,
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turning out X number of tens of thousands of budgets, you know,
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it's like, and you've translated your materials into 17 languages and what,
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you know, it's like, it, it, it's, it's hard to turn a big ship like that.
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Um, and, and the, the, how big and impressive and, and established it is,
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is, is the Achilles, the Achilles heel of that is it's really,
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really hard to, to change direction, you know? Um, yeah.
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And we see it even in universities, which are supposed to, I mean,
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that's where the research literally happens, that the average university course
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is something like eight to 10 years out of date.
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And that is because just the inertia.
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But that's where I get frustrated because we've been saying that on their behalf
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for as long as I've been studying with you, and that's 15 years.
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And i do take your point absolutely who was
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it that said i can't remember who was it that said it's like
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it's very hard to convince a man um of some
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you know of something when he's when he's when his uh when
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his income depends on him not not understanding it you
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know um and so it's very
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hard like if you've got this business and you stop pilates or balanced body
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or bassy or whoever you know that is studio pilates all of them teach these
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kind of alignment protocols you know front and center that you know you've got
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a what you know at a guest 20 million dollar a year business,
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that is based around teaching these things it's like well that's a major disincentive
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to you know to change absolutely yeah.
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Um, but I agree it's a negative value and I think we are, I mean,
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I guess the reason I'm, the reason I, I guess I'm guilty of being,
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you know, kind of soft on crime, uh,
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as well in this.
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And, and the, I, and I do that consciously. I don't give a shit about offending,
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you know, the big Pilates companies, but I do give a shit about offending Pilates,
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our listeners, Pilates instructors. I don't want to.
00:10:00.638 --> 00:10:04.738
Yeah, absolutely. I don't want, I don't want, you know, people listening to
00:10:04.738 --> 00:10:09.658
this podcast to feel that, that we don't respect them or we think they're stupid
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or, you know, anything like that.
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So I guess that's why I'm, you know, I guess I would say.
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Overly diplomatic a lot of the time in, in talking about this.
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And it's kind of like, you know, all movement's good.
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And, and, and it's true. All movement is good.
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Right. Absolutely. That's the, and I don't want to, I don't want to misrepresent
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myself because I don't want to say that I'm saying that, you know,
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there is movement that's bad.
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And it's just that my little passion spike last night was that always saying
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first off, look, let's remember that all movement's good movement.
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It sort of ameliorates having a different position because it's like,
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okay, as long as everyone's moving, we're good.
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And it's like, well, actually within that, once we accept the assumption that
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all movement is better than no movement, then there is movement that is objectively
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more productive for human health and longevity.
00:11:11.511 --> 00:11:16.351
It's saying all movement's good is not the same thing as saying all movement's equally good.
00:11:17.531 --> 00:11:21.511
Equal, right. So yeah, all movement's better than no movement,
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but once you've got people moving, there is movement that's measurably better
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for the outcomes that make human life better or create surplus value.
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And the other part of that that's really frustrating, then we get this whole
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thing about Pilates somehow being better than fitness.
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Like, you know, heaven forbid that we call Pilates fitness training
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or whatever the fuck like if you're moving and you're getting stronger and more
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flexible that's the variable right like not where your movement came from you
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know and we only need to look at joseph and and what he how he taught anyway
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i mean you know where i'm going with that but so.
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All right. So, I mean, there's lots of stuff that we, you know,
00:12:02.168 --> 00:12:06.488
disagree with about in how Pilates is taught.
00:12:06.848 --> 00:12:12.808
And, you know, we've been fortunate enough to be able to just go and create
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our own education company that teaches the way we think it should be taught.
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And we base that the way we think it should be taught on current science as much as possible.
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And we're also lucky enough to be smart. And change our program when there's
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new evidence. Yeah. And you're in the middle of doing that for the umpteenth time right now.
00:12:33.088 --> 00:12:36.168
And, you know, that's basically a permanent job almost.
00:12:36.368 --> 00:12:39.208
Like they say, painting the Sydney Harbour Bridge, you know,
00:12:39.288 --> 00:12:41.828
they go from one end and paint it all the way to the other end and they just
00:12:41.828 --> 00:12:46.048
start at the first end again and go again because it takes that long to paint
00:12:46.048 --> 00:12:48.328
it. By the time you get to the other end, it needs painting again.
00:12:49.008 --> 00:12:51.468
And it's kind of like that with rebuilding our course. You know,
00:12:51.508 --> 00:12:54.168
we rebuild it and as soon as we finish it, we have to start rebuilding it again,
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you know, because the new evidence comes out, you know, new ACSM guidelines
00:12:58.388 --> 00:13:02.008
come out or new modal learning research comes out or new, you know,
00:13:02.968 --> 00:13:05.908
educational design research comes out or whatever it might be.
00:13:06.228 --> 00:13:09.328
And so, or we just, you know, learn, we have more student data,
00:13:09.788 --> 00:13:11.148
what works, what doesn't.
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You know, the market changes, you know, what employers want has changed.
00:13:16.128 --> 00:13:20.248
You know, so, so yeah, it is kind of a Sydney Harbour Bridge thing.
00:13:21.268 --> 00:13:24.128
But i guess uh you know one thing
00:13:24.128 --> 00:13:26.788
that like you say kind of hasn't changed you know
00:13:26.788 --> 00:13:30.648
really in the last i would say 20 years
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now and over that time there has been increasing amounts of literature uh on
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the lack of association between alignment and or cause injury risk and it's just not It's just not,
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I would say that.
00:13:53.856 --> 00:14:01.796
No reasonable, I don't think any reasonable, you know,
00:14:02.456 --> 00:14:08.336
scientist, any person who has read the literature widely could reasonably take
00:14:08.336 --> 00:14:15.836
the position that alignment is a major factor in all-cause injury risk.
00:14:16.776 --> 00:14:19.616
You know, I don't think a reasonable person could take that position.
00:14:21.476 --> 00:14:31.136
Now, there is a lot of, and to be fair to people reading this literature and
00:14:31.136 --> 00:14:35.136
maybe not feeling clear on that, there are a lot of….
00:14:37.436 --> 00:14:41.496
I think there's a lot of motivated reasoning that happens even within the literature
00:14:41.496 --> 00:14:43.956
itself and interpreting of it.
00:14:44.496 --> 00:14:49.216
Like there's, you know, if you look at the literature on biomechanics and injury
00:14:49.216 --> 00:14:53.596
risk, you know, you'll find like, oh yeah, there's a lot of biomechanical literature
00:14:53.596 --> 00:14:56.856
showing that, you know, alignment predicts injury risk, right?
00:14:57.036 --> 00:15:01.096
But then when you look at almost all of that literature, they're looking at,
00:15:01.236 --> 00:15:02.656
they're not actually looking at injury risk.
00:15:03.176 --> 00:15:05.136
They're looking at proxies for injury
00:15:05.136 --> 00:15:10.956
risk, like loading on a joint or EMG activity in a certain alignment.
00:15:11.036 --> 00:15:15.136
So when we squat with our knees inwards, that increases loading on the lateral
00:15:15.136 --> 00:15:16.116
compartment of the knee.
00:15:16.696 --> 00:15:22.536
And therefore, we conclude that doing that is dangerous because that might overload the knee.
00:15:22.656 --> 00:15:30.356
But it's like that prima facie, like on the face of it, But that is a hypothesis
00:15:30.356 --> 00:15:34.496
that by increasing the loading on that compartment of the knee, we increase injuries.
00:15:35.116 --> 00:15:39.036
We have no evidence that that's true. And there's an equal argument,
00:15:39.236 --> 00:15:41.816
a very plausible argument, saying it's not true at all.
00:15:41.896 --> 00:15:48.276
It's like, well, when you do a biceps curl, it increases loading on the elbow joint.
00:15:48.796 --> 00:15:52.676
So should we not avoid biceps curls because that might cause injury?
00:15:52.676 --> 00:15:58.876
It's like exercise is the process of deliberately loading the tissues of the
00:15:58.876 --> 00:16:01.336
body in order to stimulate a strengthening response.
00:16:01.476 --> 00:16:05.356
Like that's what strengthening is, right? So deliberately loading the tissues of the body.
00:16:05.496 --> 00:16:08.816
So saying like doing X, Y, and Z increases loading on this particular tissue,
00:16:08.916 --> 00:16:14.016
it's like, so, you know, it's like, how do we know that's a bad thing, right?
00:16:14.016 --> 00:16:18.876
And so when you look at this literature, there's a lot of that stuff on joint
00:16:18.876 --> 00:16:26.016
loads and EMG, you know, and very, very little looking at like, okay,
00:16:26.256 --> 00:16:27.196
people who squat with their knees
00:16:27.196 --> 00:16:31.976
in, how many of them actually get knee injuries, you know, afterwards?
00:16:32.856 --> 00:16:35.976
And guess what? The answer is… Right. And when they get the knee injury…,
00:16:37.832 --> 00:16:40.172
Because when they get the knee injury, what's the other variable?
00:16:40.192 --> 00:16:42.332
It's how much and how often are they training.
00:16:43.332 --> 00:16:47.092
And what's their nutrition status? How old are they? You know,
00:16:47.112 --> 00:16:49.172
what's their body composition? What's their weight?
00:16:49.592 --> 00:16:53.532
You know, what's their, there's so many, so many things, you know.
00:16:54.692 --> 00:17:01.532
Yeah. And just to what, like taking that and winding it back to what I think
00:17:01.532 --> 00:17:03.372
was a major turning point for me,
00:17:03.532 --> 00:17:08.992
and it was when a course, when you changed a course that, Back then I was still,
00:17:09.052 --> 00:17:14.292
I think I was studying or delivering, I can't remember, but back in the day,
00:17:14.452 --> 00:17:17.032
we were taught all that research.
00:17:17.032 --> 00:17:19.812
I think it was McGill that did the research on the pig spines.
00:17:19.992 --> 00:17:24.072
And then blinding flash of the blatantly fucking obvious, we were assessing
00:17:24.072 --> 00:17:27.892
the risk on dead tissues. And what we forgot to allow for was that when you
00:17:27.892 --> 00:17:29.392
load a human spine, they're not dead.
00:17:29.572 --> 00:17:33.452
And if you give them rest and nutrition appropriately, those tissues actually
00:17:33.452 --> 00:17:37.572
strengthen rather than just slamming them for 50,000 repetitions over a weekend.
00:17:38.132 --> 00:17:42.052
On a machine so that you can test the response to, I mean, you could probably
00:17:42.052 --> 00:17:47.552
talk much more accurately to the actual experiment, but just that idea of when
00:17:47.552 --> 00:17:48.852
I grew up in Pilates land.
00:17:49.692 --> 00:17:53.532
Why we taught neutral was predicated on tests done on dead tissues.
00:17:53.812 --> 00:17:59.192
Yeah. Well, I think that's the problem with pretty much any research in this
00:17:59.192 --> 00:18:07.812
area is almost to all of it actually isn't human trials that evaluate injury incidents, right?
00:18:07.932 --> 00:18:11.112
So what you, you know, like if you want to know, does, you know,
00:18:11.152 --> 00:18:15.152
bending your back or squatting with the knees in or whatever cause more injuries, right?
00:18:15.412 --> 00:18:19.192
Well, what you, you know, the gold standard to act, the way to actually measure
00:18:19.192 --> 00:18:22.812
that is to get a bunch of people, have half of them squat with their knees in,
00:18:22.892 --> 00:18:26.652
half of them not squat with their knees in, follow them for a year so you get to sore knee.
00:18:28.308 --> 00:18:31.988
And just that would be the gold standard, right?
00:18:32.668 --> 00:18:37.528
But it's really, really hard to do that. And so what we end up doing is we have
00:18:37.528 --> 00:18:43.328
people come into the lab for one day, we put AMGs on their knees and we go, okay, let's squat.
00:18:43.448 --> 00:18:46.388
Oh, when you squatted that way, it reduced the activation of tibialis anterior.
00:18:46.588 --> 00:18:48.948
That could cause increased weight on the lateral compartment of the knee.
00:18:49.328 --> 00:18:50.388
Therefore, that increases injury
00:18:50.388 --> 00:18:57.188
risk, right? So there's so many assumptions in between A and Z there.
00:18:57.188 --> 00:19:00.108
Or the other thing we do is we get you know
00:19:00.108 --> 00:19:03.248
we cut you know bits out of pig spines and we
00:19:03.248 --> 00:19:08.548
stick them in a jig and we bend them 86,400 times in 24 hours and then we say
00:19:08.548 --> 00:19:14.688
huh a lot of them got injured right therefore bending is dangerous you know
00:19:14.688 --> 00:19:18.688
but it's like all right well if if if you got a real live human and you got
00:19:18.688 --> 00:19:23.048
them to do 86,400 of anything you know even just.
00:19:24.908 --> 00:19:30.088
Without a break got them to like stand in perfect neutral posture you know with
00:19:30.088 --> 00:19:35.148
a dumbbell in each hand right for 24 hours which is 86,400 seconds,
00:19:36.491 --> 00:19:40.231
You probably get some injuries there, right?
00:19:40.311 --> 00:19:46.411
So just let alone doing 86,400 reps of any exercise in 24 hours.
00:19:46.671 --> 00:19:51.331
So it's like, but if you've got that person to do like 10 reps and then wait
00:19:51.331 --> 00:19:53.791
a couple of minutes and do that again and do that three times and do that three
00:19:53.791 --> 00:19:58.711
times a week and over 10 years do 86,400 reps, they'll probably just get a fuckload
00:19:58.711 --> 00:20:00.931
stronger and they wouldn't get injured, right?
00:20:01.071 --> 00:20:05.311
So it's like a lot of this literature, that's a really great example of it actually
00:20:05.311 --> 00:20:09.371
doesn't measure injury risk in live humans.
00:20:09.611 --> 00:20:13.931
We're measuring proxies. Either we're measuring proxy measures in live humans
00:20:13.931 --> 00:20:17.491
or we're measuring injury in dead pigs.
00:20:18.071 --> 00:20:19.691
Dead tissues. Yeah.
00:20:21.531 --> 00:20:28.971
And it's interesting that, you know, we do have some literature on looking at,
00:20:28.991 --> 00:20:32.511
you know, particular alignment and particular injuries.
00:20:32.511 --> 00:20:36.911
And so one of the things, like in humans, and so one of the areas we have, um,
00:20:38.300 --> 00:20:41.980
Well, two areas we have are foot pronation, ankle pronation,
00:20:42.180 --> 00:20:47.280
and then also knee valgus, you know, knees going in.
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:52.540
And we see that when we look at foot pronation,
00:20:53.160 --> 00:21:02.200
people who run a lot regularly and who have very pronated feet tend to suffer
00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:07.300
more ankle injuries than people who run the equivalent amount and don't have
00:21:07.300 --> 00:21:08.900
very pronated feet, right?
00:21:09.080 --> 00:21:11.720
So you think, oh, well, pronation causes injury. Yeah,
00:21:12.080 --> 00:21:17.480
pronation can predispose people to ankle injuries, but people who have very
00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:23.400
pronated feet and run a lot have fewer tibial stress injuries than people who
00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:24.700
have non-pronated feet.
00:21:24.820 --> 00:21:28.900
So actually having pronated feet makes it more likely you'll have one particular
00:21:28.900 --> 00:21:31.260
injury and less likely you'll have a different particular injury,
00:21:31.380 --> 00:21:33.960
which kind of makes sense because if you think like, okay, when you pronate,
00:21:34.040 --> 00:21:35.680
it loads up the ankle more and probably offloads,
00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:40.220
the tibia, because the pronated position of the foot is the shock-absorbing
00:21:40.220 --> 00:21:44.320
position of the foot, so there's a softer landing, but it's all going into the ankle.
00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:47.120
So it's like, okay, you're loading the ankle more and the tibia less,
00:21:47.220 --> 00:21:48.460
so therefore the ankle has more injuries.
00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:52.620
Whereas when you are neutral, you have fewer ankle injuries,
00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:53.640
but more tibial injuries.
00:21:55.027 --> 00:21:59.967
Right. So we could frame that exact same research a different way and say people
00:21:59.967 --> 00:22:05.987
who don't pronate have more tibial injuries or people with a neutral foot have more tibial injuries.
00:22:06.467 --> 00:22:10.367
You know, so are we all going to go, oh crap, we should all stop having neutral feet now.
00:22:10.687 --> 00:22:15.227
No, I think what we find is when we look at the overall, what's the incidence
00:22:15.227 --> 00:22:18.667
of ankle injuries versus tibial injuries? Well, the answer is they're about the same.
00:22:18.887 --> 00:22:23.147
And so whether you have pronated feet or non-pronated feet, your total chance
00:22:23.147 --> 00:22:27.567
of getting some kind of injury is about the same, right?
00:22:27.967 --> 00:22:32.727
But just where that injury is likely to be is probably, you know,
00:22:32.807 --> 00:22:34.827
if you're a pronator, it's probably more likely to be in your ankle.
00:22:34.907 --> 00:22:37.687
If you're not a pronator, it's more likely to be in your shin, right?
00:22:38.207 --> 00:22:41.827
And so that's a very, very typical example.
00:22:42.087 --> 00:22:47.727
And we see that a lot in what human intervention studies we do have with alignment
00:22:47.727 --> 00:22:54.827
injury is that particular alignments do increase injury incidence of one particular type of injury,
00:22:54.967 --> 00:22:58.867
but at the same time, there's an equal and opposite decrease in the incidence
00:22:58.867 --> 00:23:00.667
of some other particular type of injury.
00:23:00.727 --> 00:23:03.687
And it all evens out in the wash in almost every case.
00:23:06.327 --> 00:23:11.727
Yeah. And, you know, dear listener, listen to Ralph explain that as many times
00:23:11.727 --> 00:23:13.027
as you need to, But can we just,
00:23:13.647 --> 00:23:16.767
because I would need to, if I hadn't heard him explain it many times before,
00:23:17.087 --> 00:23:23.547
but just for us in Pilates, the Pilates space, let's just bring that back to our reformer class.
00:23:24.227 --> 00:23:28.467
You know, if you've been taught at Pilates school that the way your clients
00:23:28.467 --> 00:23:34.127
lunge on one red spring or one blue spring, whether their knee is in or out
00:23:34.127 --> 00:23:37.247
is a risk to their ankle or their knee, like you just don't.
00:23:37.932 --> 00:23:40.792
Ref catch me if i'm missing something here
00:23:40.792 --> 00:23:44.012
but you're just not applying enough load over enough repetitions
00:23:44.012 --> 00:23:47.752
you just haven't got time or enough load to
00:23:47.752 --> 00:23:50.712
have any of those things be a concern because your clients need to leave in
00:23:50.712 --> 00:23:54.592
the next 45 minutes and go home and rest and then not you're just not those
00:23:54.592 --> 00:23:58.032
injuries are like when you're running too much over a week right the variable
00:23:58.032 --> 00:24:02.112
is how many miles you run per week so if your clients come to you twice a week
00:24:02.112 --> 00:24:04.292
and you do lunges each time you see them,
00:24:04.492 --> 00:24:06.612
do the lunge any fucking way you want.
00:24:06.732 --> 00:24:10.532
You're just not doing enough reps to put yourself in the risk category that
00:24:10.532 --> 00:24:12.992
puts you in the conversation that Raph just talked about.
00:24:13.412 --> 00:24:16.772
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, Raph, but how many lunges would you need to
00:24:16.772 --> 00:24:21.232
do to put yourself in that conversation? Yeah, so that's a really good point.
00:24:21.612 --> 00:24:24.932
And there's no literature on
00:24:24.932 --> 00:24:29.012
Pilates and the injury risk of people doing Pilates that I've ever read.
00:24:29.012 --> 00:24:33.112
I've looked, but I haven't found any literature looking at, okay.
00:24:34.032 --> 00:24:37.332
In a Pilates class, what is your chance of getting injured? What's the baseline rate?
00:24:37.672 --> 00:24:41.992
We don't know. But we know we have research in yoga, in breakdancing,
00:24:42.672 --> 00:24:47.732
in wrestling, all of which are kind of, sort of similar to Pilates.
00:24:47.952 --> 00:24:53.972
We have lots of literature on gym injuries and weightlifting and powerlifting,
00:24:53.972 --> 00:24:59.512
which you know, in other ways are kind of, sort of, you know, similar to Pilates.
00:25:00.232 --> 00:25:04.952
Um, and what we see is that all of these things are extremely safe.
00:25:05.352 --> 00:25:06.772
All of them are extremely safe.
00:25:08.012 --> 00:25:12.472
And, uh, one of the safest things you can do in fact is strength training,
00:25:12.732 --> 00:25:16.772
whether it's Olympic weightlifting, powerlifting, or just going to lifting weights
00:25:16.772 --> 00:25:19.312
at the gym, you know, hitting the chest press or whatever.
00:25:20.312 --> 00:25:24.132
Uh, I don't have the stats right in front of me, but the number of injuries
00:25:24.132 --> 00:25:27.892
per thousand hours of, you know, training in gym. It's microscopic.
00:25:28.112 --> 00:25:31.192
It's like, you know, three per hundred thousand hours. It's very,
00:25:31.292 --> 00:25:32.332
very, very small, right?
00:25:33.172 --> 00:25:35.772
And the overwhelming majority of….
00:25:37.725 --> 00:25:45.045
Of injuries that occur in, you know, gyms are not people doing exercise incorrectly.
00:25:45.085 --> 00:25:50.105
It's people dropping shit on their own feet and tripping over and falling off
00:25:50.105 --> 00:25:52.185
cardio machines, right?
00:25:52.385 --> 00:25:55.885
So just imagine, you know, some idiot leaves the weights out and you're walking
00:25:55.885 --> 00:26:00.185
across the gym and you trip over it and smash your face into a dumbbell rack or something.
00:26:00.285 --> 00:26:02.585
That's a typical gym injury, right?
00:26:02.745 --> 00:26:06.685
Or some idiot's clowning around on the treadmill, you know, running backwards
00:26:06.685 --> 00:26:10.165
and sideways looking at a girl across the gym, falls off, you know,
00:26:10.385 --> 00:26:12.425
smashes their head on the wall or whatever, right?
00:26:12.585 --> 00:26:17.545
That is a typical gym injury, not someone doing a squat incorrectly and,
00:26:17.585 --> 00:26:19.105
you know, blowing out their knee, right?
00:26:19.345 --> 00:26:23.825
Way, way more common, like 80%. I don't have the stats right in front of me,
00:26:23.905 --> 00:26:25.245
but I have looked at the literature on this.
00:26:25.385 --> 00:26:30.005
And it's somewhere in 70, 80% of injuries are like just idiots doing stupid
00:26:30.005 --> 00:26:31.945
shit, you know, in the gym.
00:26:31.945 --> 00:26:40.325
And we have a lot of literature looking at resistance training volume,
00:26:40.325 --> 00:26:45.005
so basically how many hours per week you spend doing resistance training.
00:26:45.245 --> 00:26:49.285
Now, typically resistance training is measured in these studies as like lifting
00:26:49.285 --> 00:26:51.225
weights or using machines at the gym, right?
00:26:51.365 --> 00:26:55.465
But Pilates is essentially, it's in that category of thing, or it's not that
00:26:55.465 --> 00:26:59.485
exact same thing, but it's the same type of thing using bodyweight resistance
00:26:59.485 --> 00:27:03.325
and spring resistance, but it's still resistance training. if you do it right.
00:27:05.560 --> 00:27:13.680
And there is a very clear and very consistent inverse relationship between the
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:18.680
number of hours you spend resistance training on a regular basis and your risk of injury, right?
00:27:18.780 --> 00:27:24.140
So the more you resistance train, the less injuries you get, right?
00:27:24.200 --> 00:27:27.500
And so these are studies looking at athletes, so, you know, soccer players,
00:27:27.700 --> 00:27:30.300
rugby players, dancers, you know, whatever it might be.
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:33.940
Then we look at the dancers, rugby players, and soccer players who,
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:36.680
you know, go to the gym half an hour a week, an hour a week,
00:27:36.780 --> 00:27:38.120
two hours a week, three hours a week.
00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:41.840
And guess what? The three hour a week people have the fewest injuries and the
00:27:41.840 --> 00:27:45.040
half an hour a week people have more injuries and the people who never go to
00:27:45.040 --> 00:27:46.080
the gym have the most injuries.
00:27:47.140 --> 00:27:51.360
And so, you know, there's a risk in anything. Like if you go for a walk,
00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:52.420
you might die of a heart attack.
00:27:52.760 --> 00:27:57.200
But if you never go for a walk, your chance of dying of a heart attack is way
00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:00.960
higher because your cardiovascular system is way weaker, right?
00:28:01.040 --> 00:28:05.940
And so, yes, if you go to the gym, there's a higher chance, like if you're squatting
00:28:05.940 --> 00:28:09.220
with a heavy barbell on your back, there's a higher chance you're going to hurt
00:28:09.220 --> 00:28:11.840
your back than if you're sitting on the sofa, right?
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:17.560
But if you never squat, your lifetime chance of doing something in your back
00:28:17.560 --> 00:28:21.040
is way higher because your back is so much weaker.
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:24.060
And if you'd step off a curb wrong or, you know,
00:28:24.380 --> 00:28:29.440
roll over in bed wrong, you can snap something because you're just made of chalk
00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:33.520
because you've never actually added any load to your system and stimulated that
00:28:33.520 --> 00:28:37.480
strengthening, that protective strengthening that you get from resistance training.
00:28:45.053 --> 00:28:51.493
Actually, you know, you and I have both been looking at this company.
00:28:51.673 --> 00:28:54.233
We're both kind of like called the Moves Method.
00:28:55.393 --> 00:29:00.573
And one of the things that they talk about is that, you know,
00:29:00.713 --> 00:29:06.213
you need to get strong out of alignment, right?
00:29:06.213 --> 00:29:15.673
Because if lunging with your knee in is dangerous, which it's not,
00:29:16.373 --> 00:29:20.193
but if lunging with your knee in was dangerous, well,
00:29:21.053 --> 00:29:25.593
are you truly going to guarantee that you go through the next 50,
00:29:25.693 --> 00:29:29.873
60 years of your life without ever once having your knee in?
00:29:29.933 --> 00:29:31.153
What about when you get up?
00:29:31.273 --> 00:29:34.653
I mean, dear listener, try this right now. I sit in a chair,
00:29:34.933 --> 00:29:38.953
get up out of a chair and rotate to one side at the same time.
00:29:39.053 --> 00:29:42.213
Like just imagine you're getting out from a table in a restaurant where you're
00:29:42.213 --> 00:29:45.793
in a corner or there's people either side of you on chairs and you're at dinner
00:29:45.793 --> 00:29:48.933
or you're on the bus and you have to get up and twist around somebody.
00:29:49.033 --> 00:29:51.613
It's like your knee fucking rotates when you do that.
00:29:52.939 --> 00:29:55.799
And you're going to Velgas, like it's a normal part of everyday movement,
00:29:55.919 --> 00:29:57.799
right? And so just say you're on the bus when you do that.
00:29:57.919 --> 00:30:01.299
And then as you're standing up, the bus jolts. Or just say you're at a restaurant
00:30:01.299 --> 00:30:04.579
and as you're doing that, someone else moves their chair and hits you in the side of the knee.
00:30:04.719 --> 00:30:07.599
Or just like, just say you're, you know, walking in the park and you change
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:11.699
direction and a dog runs into you. Like shit happens in life, you know?
00:30:12.119 --> 00:30:17.239
And so if you've constantly avoided that position and never strengthened in
00:30:17.239 --> 00:30:18.579
that position, guess what?
00:30:18.899 --> 00:30:22.759
When shit happens, you've got no tolerance for it, right?
00:30:22.939 --> 00:30:27.659
But if you lunge every now and then with your knee going in a little bit,
00:30:27.779 --> 00:30:29.299
well, guess what? You get stronger in that position.
00:30:29.459 --> 00:30:32.799
You're more tolerant to load in that position because strength is specific,
00:30:33.159 --> 00:30:35.999
you know, specific to the joint angle, speed, range of motion,
00:30:36.099 --> 00:30:37.519
et cetera, that you move at.
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:42.319
So yeah, it gets strong out of alignment. It's actually protective against injury.
00:30:42.479 --> 00:30:46.879
It's the opposite, you know? And that's why you're, you know,
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:50.679
sweating and mumbling in your sleep, you know, and And, and,
00:30:50.779 --> 00:30:54.559
you know, going like, no, it's not alignment, you know,
00:30:55.379 --> 00:30:58.499
balanced body, you're wrong, um,
00:30:59.499 --> 00:31:06.619
is because like what the, what the message, that messaging is the exact opposite of what's true.
00:31:11.727 --> 00:31:24.447
I remember when I started to explore different kinds of movement and a program I was on said,
00:31:24.807 --> 00:31:28.727
I can't remember what they called it, I call it an inside squat.
00:31:29.687 --> 00:31:33.347
And you can try this, folks. You stand with your feet just a little wider than
00:31:33.347 --> 00:31:37.287
hip distance but not much and turn your toes out a little bit like duck-footed.
00:31:37.287 --> 00:31:40.647
And then as you squat put your knees together and
00:31:40.647 --> 00:31:43.767
squat as deep as you can and at the beginning it's kind
00:31:43.767 --> 00:31:46.487
of weird and awkward and hard and it's
00:31:46.487 --> 00:31:49.147
you're not as well set up to create force as you
00:31:49.147 --> 00:31:53.787
would in a normal squat but with a bit of practice I started to do barbell squats
00:31:53.787 --> 00:31:59.527
with my knees together and my feet apart asked to heal and once I started including
00:31:59.527 --> 00:32:04.027
movement like that with load my knees and I've got creaky knee I used to have
00:32:04.027 --> 00:32:08.067
creaky knees and sometimes they creak still my knees never felt better when I started to load.
00:32:08.882 --> 00:32:12.082
In that wrong squad when we've
00:32:12.082 --> 00:32:14.782
run the diploma there's a whole genre i'd call
00:32:14.782 --> 00:32:17.742
it a sub genre of kind of strongman like if
00:32:17.742 --> 00:32:20.982
you you know i'm i'm into strength and physiology and
00:32:20.982 --> 00:32:23.982
strength training i follow a whole bunch of people on youtube and instagram
00:32:23.982 --> 00:32:26.942
they're just into like weird and wacky you know strength training
00:32:26.942 --> 00:32:29.722
things and um there's this whole
00:32:29.722 --> 00:32:33.022
sub genre of like strongman competitors
00:32:33.022 --> 00:32:36.042
you know strongman people like they pick up like heavy rocks and
00:32:36.042 --> 00:32:39.962
you know throw things over poles and stuff like that that they're
00:32:39.962 --> 00:32:43.262
into doing like really weird lifts so they'll
00:32:43.262 --> 00:32:46.182
do something like a barbell on the ground and they'll
00:32:46.182 --> 00:32:50.462
pick it up off like a really heavy barbell with a fuck ton of weight on it and
00:32:50.462 --> 00:32:55.102
they'll put the barbell on one end and then they'll go sideways under put it
00:32:55.102 --> 00:32:58.802
on their shoulders sideways so they're laterally flexed like 90 degrees to their
00:32:58.802 --> 00:33:02.642
spine with this like 200 kilo barbell and then they'll get it a set and they'll
00:33:02.642 --> 00:33:04.682
stand up and do a squat and then they'll put it down again.
00:33:05.162 --> 00:33:10.702
And there are people that do like deadlifts with the bar behind their back or between their legs.
00:33:11.222 --> 00:33:15.702
Like, you know, there's this kind of weird, crazy shit that people do.
00:33:15.842 --> 00:33:20.042
And strongman, they pick up like massive fucking rocks that are really like
00:33:20.042 --> 00:33:25.862
odd, you know, asymmetrical shapes and you just cannot lift them in anything
00:33:25.862 --> 00:33:28.802
approaching neutral, in any joint.
00:33:28.942 --> 00:33:33.042
Then there's, you know, so there are so many, you know, sports that involve
00:33:33.042 --> 00:33:38.042
people just lifting extreme things, you know, in weird moments.
00:33:38.042 --> 00:33:42.462
And whenever they do that, and the argument is made by our education,
00:33:42.822 --> 00:33:46.682
Pilates education providers that that doesn't apply to your clients,
00:33:46.882 --> 00:33:51.082
is the only difference between those people is Milo and the Bull, right?
00:33:51.102 --> 00:33:54.722
They've just done a little weight and added a little more weight and added a
00:33:54.722 --> 00:33:58.202
little more weight and then all of a sudden they're doing these funky things in crazy alignment.
00:33:58.402 --> 00:34:01.402
It's exactly the same thing as any other kind of strength training.
00:34:02.392 --> 00:34:07.272
Well, you know. Backrowing, like backrowing. Like just think about some Pilates movements.
00:34:07.412 --> 00:34:12.132
Backrowing is a fucked up movement pattern, right? Like internally rotated and
00:34:12.132 --> 00:34:15.172
flexed at the spine and rotating. Why is that okay?
00:34:15.572 --> 00:34:22.152
Like why is that taught and okay when pushups with your elbows in a different position is not okay?
00:34:22.332 --> 00:34:29.752
Like it's, and you just add load over time, all tissues will get stronger in
00:34:29.752 --> 00:34:32.192
that movement. Well, it's, you know, what you said there about,
00:34:32.332 --> 00:34:36.152
like, and I've heard that argument too, it's like, are those strong men, you know, competitors?
00:34:36.732 --> 00:34:39.472
They're, you know, that's different. It's, you know, it doesn't apply to,
00:34:39.472 --> 00:34:41.752
like, you know, Mrs. Jones has got arthritic news. It's like,
00:34:42.092 --> 00:34:44.412
well, is their physiology different?
00:34:44.592 --> 00:34:50.232
I mean, do their cells respond differently to load? No, they've got human physiology, right?
00:34:50.352 --> 00:34:55.192
You know, I mean, if you cut them, they bleed, you know, like, they're humans.
00:34:55.892 --> 00:34:59.612
And so how did they get that strong? Well, they weren't always that strong.
00:34:59.612 --> 00:35:01.692
If you think about that person when they were born –.
00:35:02.608 --> 00:35:05.588
You know, zero days old, they couldn't do those things.
00:35:06.008 --> 00:35:09.948
So how is it that they're now able to do those things? Well, what do you think?
00:35:10.328 --> 00:35:14.328
They trained, you know, imagine little Johnny, you know, goes to the gym for
00:35:14.328 --> 00:35:17.508
the first time when he's 14, you know, does some biceps curls,
00:35:18.048 --> 00:35:20.548
you know, does that for a few years.
00:35:20.668 --> 00:35:24.088
One day, see some strongman competition, see someone picking up a rock,
00:35:24.228 --> 00:35:27.308
goes, oh, I think I'll give that a go, tries it, you know, then he goes down
00:35:27.308 --> 00:35:30.468
the rabbit hole, 20 years later, he's picking up fucking weird shit,
00:35:30.648 --> 00:35:33.608
you know, and weird angles on YouTube and people are going, oh,
00:35:33.688 --> 00:35:35.368
wow, that's amazing, but that doesn't apply to me.
00:35:35.508 --> 00:35:42.088
It's like, no, you just build up a tolerance to load by progressively adding load, right?
00:35:42.228 --> 00:35:46.688
And the difference between your client and the strongman competitors is your
00:35:46.688 --> 00:35:49.388
clients have not been exposed to enough load.
00:35:49.528 --> 00:35:53.548
That's why they're so fucking weak, right? If they can't bear to have their
00:35:53.548 --> 00:35:56.468
knee going two inches in a lunge, a bodyweight lunge, it's like,
00:35:56.588 --> 00:36:01.088
well, that's too little for too long.
00:36:02.108 --> 00:36:03.228
That's the problem there.
00:36:05.399 --> 00:36:09.099
And, and if you haven't looked up train with Joan and you're listening to us
00:36:09.099 --> 00:36:10.279
thinking, oh, it's too late.
00:36:10.459 --> 00:36:13.019
If you're, if you're not already strong by the time you're 40,
00:36:13.259 --> 00:36:15.679
it's too late. That's horse shit, right?
00:36:16.479 --> 00:36:20.779
Train with Joan. What is she? 75? 80? She went from one of the second half of
00:36:20.779 --> 00:36:23.479
her seventies now. I think she started training when she was 70.
00:36:23.659 --> 00:36:28.399
She was like just this completely sedentary, substantially overweight,
00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:30.659
70 year old who'd never exercised in her life.
00:36:30.799 --> 00:36:34.519
And for some reason she just decided to get fit. And now she's a fucking machine, you know?
00:36:35.399 --> 00:36:39.839
Yeah, it's so great. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, that's one of the ones,
00:36:39.979 --> 00:36:44.719
I've worked with lots of clients over 60 who had not exercised or if they had,
00:36:44.799 --> 00:36:47.759
it was before they were 20 and they came for whatever reason.
00:36:47.759 --> 00:36:50.859
And I've never seen anyone go through quite that transformation.
00:36:50.859 --> 00:36:54.599
But, you know, I will cry as soon as we start talking about working with older
00:36:54.599 --> 00:37:00.039
adults, because it's so transformational for them to feel strong and capable
00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:02.939
more so than sometimes they ever have in their life,
00:37:03.139 --> 00:37:05.859
simply by applying graded,
00:37:06.459 --> 00:37:12.179
consistent load and being patient, you know, and not giving them stories about
00:37:12.179 --> 00:37:15.999
their frailty or their inability to do things.
00:37:15.999 --> 00:37:20.899
And there's nothing special about that process. It's just special because it's
00:37:20.899 --> 00:37:26.379
extra transformational when people have lived a life without movement.
00:37:26.579 --> 00:37:29.179
And the one that really, and this is circling back to what makes me angry,
00:37:29.339 --> 00:37:32.659
is when working with clients who've been told to avoid movements because they're
00:37:32.659 --> 00:37:36.579
dangerous and so therefore they reduce their movement and their exposure to
00:37:36.579 --> 00:37:40.059
load and end up afraid to move.
00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:44.059
And the paradox is that actually makes them unsafe. Like as you explained so
00:37:44.059 --> 00:37:47.679
clearly before, If you have avoided movement because you're worried about it,
00:37:47.779 --> 00:37:49.399
you actually are more vulnerable.
00:37:49.959 --> 00:37:54.939
And our opportunity is to help people not be vulnerable, to actually make them
00:37:54.939 --> 00:37:59.499
stronger and more confident to move more freely and better.
00:38:00.835 --> 00:38:04.355
If we tell people that movements are dangerous and that load is dangerous and
00:38:04.355 --> 00:38:08.575
end range of motion is dangerous, and we don't do the work to know how to manage
00:38:08.575 --> 00:38:12.335
load incrementally and motivate people to come back, well,
00:38:12.755 --> 00:38:16.775
that's a negative, we're putting negative shit into those people's lives and
00:38:16.775 --> 00:38:20.535
making their lives measurably worse through, if nothing else,
00:38:20.615 --> 00:38:24.155
just through fear, let alone their physiological effect of not moving.
00:38:24.875 --> 00:38:27.695
Yeah. and the the you know
00:38:27.695 --> 00:38:30.655
that just going back to what you said about older adults there is
00:38:30.655 --> 00:38:33.695
we have a lot of literature on strength training
00:38:33.695 --> 00:38:41.195
uh for with older adults and we older adults are able to put on muscle and strength
00:38:41.195 --> 00:38:47.195
um with resistance training um they they tend to put on we're talking about
00:38:47.195 --> 00:38:53.315
people over 65 typically is what they refer to as older adults uh they tend to have a.
00:38:54.315 --> 00:38:57.435
Attenuated response to like hypertrophy training
00:38:57.435 --> 00:39:00.555
so in other words they put on less muscle for the
00:39:00.555 --> 00:39:03.495
same amount of training as a younger adult
00:39:03.495 --> 00:39:08.355
would but you just do a little bit more training and you can get the same amount
00:39:08.355 --> 00:39:13.595
of muscle you know so there's something like a 25 percent attenuation in the
00:39:13.595 --> 00:39:17.715
in the hypertrophy response so basically if the 20 year old and the 65 year
00:39:17.715 --> 00:39:22.075
old do the same number of sets of the same exercise at the same intensity,
00:39:22.415 --> 00:39:27.735
you know, the 20-year-old will probably have 25% more muscle, right?
00:39:27.895 --> 00:39:34.175
But if the older adult just does like a couple of extra sets, bam, equal, you know?
00:39:34.355 --> 00:39:36.775
And the older adults got plenty of time anyway, because they're retired.
00:39:36.995 --> 00:39:37.775
What else are they going to do?
00:39:38.975 --> 00:39:42.335
Good time for more training. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.
00:39:43.135 --> 00:39:48.575
So don't fear the valgus. Don't fear the spinal flexion. Don't fear the internal rotation.
00:39:49.175 --> 00:39:52.035
Don't fear the end range. Don't fear your knee going in in a lunge.
00:39:52.215 --> 00:39:55.995
And don't listen to bullshit from outdated educators who haven't changed their
00:39:55.995 --> 00:39:59.495
curriculum since the late, early 1990s.
00:40:00.934 --> 00:40:06.014
And, and if any, and, and the other, the thing there that I learned and you
00:40:06.014 --> 00:40:09.594
learned and we weren't taught is how to manage load over time.
00:40:09.814 --> 00:40:12.494
Like thinking, we teach, we call it teaching in layers. Like,
00:40:13.034 --> 00:40:14.594
and you think you teach in layers.
00:40:14.714 --> 00:40:17.934
Well, do you, when are your layers organized around adding load?
00:40:18.294 --> 00:40:22.014
Because that's what, that was the transformation for me in my teaching and my
00:40:22.014 --> 00:40:27.534
business and our education system is organizing what you add based on load and
00:40:27.534 --> 00:40:29.354
people's tolerance within the class.
00:40:29.494 --> 00:40:32.554
Like that's the skill. And that's why we built a
00:40:32.554 --> 00:40:39.254
whole system of Pilates designed to build people's capacity and make them stronger
00:40:39.254 --> 00:40:44.114
and more mobile so that they become more resistant to injury and they don't
00:40:44.114 --> 00:40:48.374
have to worry about their knee going in because they're strong enough to- And
00:40:48.374 --> 00:40:49.694
then they can move any way they want.
00:40:50.254 --> 00:40:52.934
And then you can go off and do neutral all you like, but you could do anything
00:40:52.934 --> 00:40:55.874
you want on either side of it. And they can even get up out of a chair in a
00:40:55.874 --> 00:40:57.754
restaurant without damaging their knee.
00:40:58.794 --> 00:41:00.954
On one leg. All right. Good talk.