Welcome to Headroom, where we discuss all things essential to mental health and well being. I'm your host, Jim Owens, a licensed professional counselor at Lansing Community College. I'd like to emphasize that while this podcast does not contain medical advice, it does introduce you to some phenomenal people with incredible ideas for you and your life. So having said that, let's get into the Headroom today and begin our conversation with my guest, Dr. Kali Majumdar, a professor of anthropology here at Lansing Community College. Thanks for coming in today. I know you've had a long day. You've been speaking and teaching all day long.

Yes, I have.

And we're here at the end of the day recording. But I really appreciate you coming in because you have been charged. You charged yourself with studying cultures of the world and the history of cultures for many worlds or from many years. I don't know if you know this about me. My undergrad is multidisciplinary, and I asked my advisor. I don't want to study just psychology. I want to study sociology and anthropology because I want to study the individual. I want to study the individual in groups and I want to understand them, how they've organized themselves over time and in different places on the planet. So I have a kind of a really small minor in anthropology. So I'm really glad you're here.

That's great. I think that anthropology is like the basement. If you want to build a good foundation, your basement has to be good. And I think anthropology does the job.

Does the job? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's the study of human beings in culture over time and culture,

biology, language, and history. We look at all those four things, how they intersect to produce who we are. Like, I tell my students that you have to realize when you look into the mirror, you are the success story, because your ancestors did very well. That's why. There you are. So you better show it.

Yeah.

That you are 5 billion years of evolution, you know? So you better show it.

You're the shining output of that. And let's see you shine.

Yes, absolutely.

That's cool. It's a fun way to put it. So let's let people get to know you just a little bit, and then we'll talk about mental health and what life was like for you in college and then what you've learned from studying cultures. So who are you? Where'd you come from?

Hi, I am. How would I say? I have a name. That was the first gift my parents gave me, so I kept it. Of course, you can return gifts. So I Could have had a different name and that would be fine. But I do like my name because actually my pet name is Kalo, which means the dark one, because I was the dark child. My sister was lighter skinned. And so that again tells you something about India and colorism. But so when my full name is actually Krishna, Kali, and I say my gangster name is Kiss and Kill because Krishna is the God of love and Kali is the goddess of death and destruction. So I really like my name. I also like Kali because she's the goddess of destruction, because she destroys evil. So what is there not to like? You know, so it's a very. And I was raised by very strong men and women, mostly women. And so it comes naturally to me, you know, things that I've done. I was very lucky to be born in the family.

I was, you know, that's a very powerful name. I'm making a connection to destroying ignorance as an academic, because I'm sure, and we both know this as teachers, students show up not with a blank slate, but with a slate full of information that needs to be reorganized. Some of it needs to be jettisoned, and your job is to destroy some of what they think they know.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Nice way. Because, you know, evil is kind of. It's not a good concept to understand our reality. But ignorance is, you know, I keep telling my students what is power? Knowledge is power, you know, And I think the more you know about yourself, the better you can help yourself. You know what I mean?

So let's talk about that. How did you come to know yourself? How did you. And did some of that happen in college or before and after and it's still ongoing or.

It is ongoing. It is ongoing. The things that I was raised with. And I don't know how my parents did this, but they raised us very confident. I was an ugly child, you know, funny, smart at times. And you know, I come from middle class India where achievement is your identity. And. And my parents didn't push us into medicine or engineering. I went into biology and then switched over to anthropology and my sister did advertising. So they're very unusual paths to take and they let us be. And my sister got married when she was 25, and I was leaving India when I was 24 years old and my dad said, do you ever want to get married? I'm like, I don't know. And they said, what do you want to do? I said, I just want to explore, you know, they said, go explore. And here I am exploring still today.

Wow. And as you say, that was quite an unusual experience for young women, middle class India

or men for that matter, I would say, because we are middle class India where education is the way out of poverty and ignorance. And also my caste is Brahmin, so you are supposed to be learned and that's a good value to have. And my mom's side, they're all professors and teachers. So I just fell into a good family and they nurtured me. And I have fabulous relationship with my aunts and, and I think aunts and cousins make your life, you know, because parents have this kind of attachment that. And siblings have that kind of competition and attachment, whereas cousins and aunts are a little different, you know, so I'm always about cousins and aunts and uncles.

Yeah. You know, but you highlight something we really emphasize in psychology, which is the dynamics of our origin family, our family of origin and how much that benefits or challenges us. And I just hear you saying over and over again, you were really grateful to have been born in a family that really gave you a lot of freedom, let you spread your wings in the way that you wanted to. And how unusual that is, not only in Indian culture, but really anywhere, anywhere in the world. I think that's a pretty common theme that parents, if they're thinking about it, they want something good for their children.

Absolutely.

And they have a pretty defined plan of what that might be. Engineering and medicine are pretty solid, pretty solid stuff.

Law they didn't want me to get into. But medicine and engineering, you know, that was something like my dad's. My dad was in advertising too. He was, you know, 50s, advertising guy. So I cannot say about India, but I can say that even though I had a comfortable life, I was not. What's the word I'm looking for? I was not shielded from the reality around me. So I saw poor people, I saw things that are very harsh that a child should not see. But we live in this world where children are the ones who suffer. You know, they come into this world without a permission or consensus. And then here it is. And now you'll do this. And when we get old, you'll take care of us. You know, that's. Almost all cultures sort of teach you that way. And when I ask my students, why do you have to take care of your parents? And they're like, well, they took care of us. I said, did you ask them to take care of you? I said, no. I said, interesting. Isn't that interesting? You know, so I'm not saying don't take care of your parents. You should Take care of everybody. And, you know, and if you talk about Indian culture, some of the things that I. That people have heard of, two words that comes to my mind are karma and dharma. And karma means work, you know, and dharma means purpose. And what is interesting is integrity or science is about non attachment. And non attachment is nishkama karma. That means without attachment. So when you do things without attachment, you are not wedded to the fruits.

The outcome.

Yeah, the outcome. And when the grade is not, I tell my student, if I took away the grade, would you be more interested in what I am saying? And they're like, yeah, we like to converse, you know. And so that detachment, you know, it reminds me of this thing from Bhagavad Gita. And my parents and my grandparents always said, the tree gives fruit but doesn't eat its own fruit. The river doesn't drink its own water. So why are we so attached to the outcomes? What can it do for me? And that's. It's charity, I was going to say.

I think that's a liberating concept.

Yes, it is. That it doesn't matter what your grade is. All you need to do is be engaged and follow your purpose, you know, and that does take the stress away.

Wow. Yeah, it's liberating. It's freeing. You and I both know, because we work with students of all ages, but the expectations they bring to the classroom, to this campus, to life in general, even outside of campus, are pretty heavy. From their family, what they have decided to carry, and I'll use the word decided, because they've consented or assented to this social contract with their parents or with society, that, yeah, I'm going to do this to live up to some standard that was given to me. And very often what happens, especially for young persons, is they have to reevaluate those standards because they were given to them by their culture, by their family. And they have to decide, is that really what I want for myself? Like even the idea of a college education so highly here. I know this. In India, too, for example, we have to kind of convince people trades are good careers, too. It's not just academics and baccalaureate degrees and stuff. Right. There's many ways to find meaning and purpose. There's many ways to work in this world. There's many ways to serve in this

world and not work in this world.

Oh, that too.

You know, how much are you consuming? Can we just move away from that consumption? Would we then need to work this hard? You know, I kept in my cultural anthropology Class, the first activity is they have to go into their closet and make a list of things and how much they are governed. They have almost consented to be ruled by outside. And especially, you know, you were talking about family and society. But social media is almost, it's like that's the echo chamber they now live in. So the parents are telling them something, but the influencers are right there and influencing them from how to cut their nails to. I mean, it's ridiculous the kind of influence they have. And as you know that students are putting in anywhere between six to seven hours looking at social media and that's a lot of stress, not just from your family in terms of going to college. That's just a small bit of, you know, how you dress yourself, what's your haircut like, how does your nails look, to what car you drive, to what backpack? You okay? I mean, it's just overwhelming the clothes you wear. Fast fashion as you know. And you know, I think social media is really influencing. Without any kind of structure, it's free flowing, you know, like society. Over the thousands and millions of years we've organized that this is how we are going to live. Some things work, some things don't work. They are contradictory. But we have had those kinds of experiments. But social media seems like it's, there's

almost no gatekeepers or guardians to it.

There are no rules.

Yeah, there's no rules.

Today I learned about rule dependent AI and generative AI. It feels like our society is rule. Rules are, you know, they're telling us that within these rules you work, whereas generative AI is free flowing.

Whatever.

Yeah, whatever. And I think that can be hard when you don't know.

That's such a deep concept for counseling and for mental health. Because I'm going to use the word boundaries instead of rules for a moment. But for society and for the individual, boundaries are really, really helpful and healthy. But they can box you in too if you're not careful. Right. They can limit you.

You know, I was going to say

protect you and limit you. Yeah.

I've never heard of the word boundary since I came until I came here because we believe in the interconnectedness. So when you say you're putting a boundary, it's artificial. We are. So what I do today impacts you, impacts the trees that give me fruit, the water that I drink from. We are all connected. And if we look at the interconnectedness, instead of I have to take care of myself, I have to, you know, have this boundary instead of saying if we take care of each other, because we are interconnected. You cannot. That boundary is artificial. Where do you draw the boundary?

Well, this is my problem. This is why when I was in college, and this may make me look astute, and so if I had my moment, let me have it. I said, it just doesn't make any sense to study a person outside of the context of the group. It just, you know, mental health is social health is environmental health is biological health.

Absolutely.

I focused on mental and emotional health because we make these boundaries and divisions between mind, spirit, body, culture, society, et cetera, they are pretty artificial. And I can tell you, as a clinician, a lot of people's mental health is not mental. It's social.

Mm.

That's the root problem.

I mean, think about when we were wearing masks. They said, keep social distance. No, you keep physical distance. Socially, you can be fine. You know, and this, even the mental health, you know, if your body is not healthy.

Right. We are one with our body. Right, Right. We're talking the same thing.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Those are divisions and classification and categories we created in our culture to understand that is not everything. They're all. I think the interconnectedness is so important. The connections that students are not making is so important. I feel that if we do not help our students make connection with the material, no matter how much they know the content, not for, you know, they might get an A, but they have not really learned anything. And I think I'm really focusing in my class about interconnections, building community, really seeing, who am I? What do I like? You know, our society gives us some paths, you know, but ultimately, what are those virtues that we have learned from all different religions? And I will bring in religions because religion is the ones that give us what's right and wrong. And to me, once we know what is right and wrong and we can question that, but if we just divorce it from ourselves, how is that doing any service to anybody? And so we are talking about ethics without talking about what is right and wrong. I mean, what's the problem in looking at, say, the five religions and saying. What are they saying? They all say the same thing. Yeah, yeah.

The perennial philosophy.

Pardon me?

No, it's called the perennial philosophy.

Right, exactly.

It's coming up over and over again in every religion.

And so it's ultimately, why are we here and where are we going? But we all know is we are here. And it's kind of interesting that we are here. You know, when you look at all, it's so bizarre when you think about it. You Know, you know, Eastern religion tells you this is an illusion, it's a trend, because it's a transient thing. Right. Your soul is eternal. So. But even though it's transient, it's so incredibly beautiful. So at the same time, I want students to appreciate the world around them, but not to be totally so influenced that it's unhealthy for them.

Yeah. This ecological worldview, I think, is what I'm hearing you describe is so important. And of course, the traditional education we get in college here is individualistic versus collectivistic cultures. Right. We hear that. And more often than not, United States, at least in west, is described as individualistic. And the further you get, well, east and west is just a matter of perspective, but the further you get to the left or the right of that continent or the European continent, you find more collectivistic cultures.

You know, you say that, but I feel the US Is also a very collectivistic culture. We are so influenced by our society. So, okay, I'll give you an example. So I have a friend who is in love with somebody, but his parents don't know about it. And he knows that he's going to be disowned by his parents if he brings this woman home. And so he goes and has an arranged marriage, and he's fine, you know, companionship. We could go into another five hours of that. But what was interesting is, did he make a collectivist decision or did he make an individual decision? I think it was both. It was very important for him, for him as an individual, to have a good relationship with his family and to also have what his family offers, which is awesome. You know, it's called support. You know, and if you don't have that support, you have nothing. So was it an individualistic decision or was it a collective decision? Again, this distinction is very.

They're kind of false dichotomies.

Yes.

Sometimes we say, and I agree with that, just like the brain and the mind are emotions and biology and all this, they are. They're useful taxonomies so that we can get into a discipline. Because, again, you're a professor of anthropology, but that certainly includes sociology, certainly includes biology, as you mentioned, and includes psychology. It includes psychology as well. Exactly. And I'm just thinking, how did you come to that worldview? Was that something that was given to you, or did you pick that up in school?

So I have an undergrad in biology, so I did zoology, chemistry, and my major was botany. And I happen to have a neighborhood where we all hung out with each other. And There was this woman who had just finished our MFA at Berkeley. You know, it's our pilgrimage place. And she had come and she was. She was. She would hang out with us. She was like 26 and we were 19.

Look up to her.

Yeah, of course. And she had this beautiful room that we would sit and talk, and she would talk to me and. And she said, kali, why don't you do anthropology? I'm like, what the hell?

Anthropology?

Sorry. What the heck is anthropology? And she gave me a book to read, and that was it. And I realized that what I like doing is connecting with people. And, you know, people ask me, where do you feel at home in India or the U.S. i said, neither places. I don't have a home. I have a fragmented self. I'm talking to a psychologist to understand what I mean by that. And I think I've discovered that I am at home when we are conversing and we are connecting.

You're at home, I'm at home in this conversation. This is a kind of a home for you.

Exactly where I feel I belong, because you understand what I'm saying. And I think I want to provide that for my students as well. And of course, I tell them, I will say things that challenge your mind, but challenge me too, because this is a learning environment, both for you and me. So I have been learning through zoology and chemistry and botany and art and advertising, and of course, anthropology, then living India. Right. And then coming here and realizing that I could get a different identity. And so it is kind of interesting, you know, you go to a different place where nobody knows you, it can be anything you want, and there are no rules and regulations and all of a sudd. And you say, these are the rules I want. This is what works for me. And that's how I would say kind of my thing developed. And as my partner would say, I have 200 best friends.

I sort of believe that. Yeah.

Yeah. And I always say that you never meet a stranger. You're meeting a friend, you just have to start talking, you know? And so wherever you go, you don't really meet strangers. They all have the same human experience that you have, and they're slightly different. Maybe their culture is different, maybe their personality is different, maybe their proclivities are different. But you can connect. Like we are connecting right now. I think we could go for hours, right, Jim?

Right.

Right.

Yeah. No matter how different our backgrounds are, worldviews, I really enjoy that about working on a campus with so much diversity. And sometimes, again, the media wants to show how divided we are into these different groups, political groups, religious groups, ideologies and so on. I really subscribe to the human group. That's the one I'm in. That's the one you're in. And I'm fascinated. There's. To me, there's nothing more fascinating on the planet than human beings.

I'll tell you something that anthropology taught me. We have to have a multi species perspective if we want to live in this world. Because we have kind of messed up this world and we have to realize that anything that we do impacts other species. And so we need to have an inter species integrated living. You know, again, it could be the ecological concept that I'm drawn to, but having lived in India, Having lived for 38 years now in the US you just feel, where do you feel like you belong? You know, why do you have to work this hard? It shouldn't have to work this hard. We are humans.

It should be basic to us.

Absolutely.

Probably squirrels don't have existential crises like we have when it comes to identity. And identity formation is a massive task for a human being for whatever reason. And I think we struggle. And here I'm trying to speak for 7 or 8 billion people on the planet, but I think we struggle with the tension between wanting to be familiar to people, but yet be so unique and individual. Be ourself and try to define ourselves in a way that, that is valid and true for us.

Okay, that's another distinction, right? The self and the ego. So what is the ego? The ego has interests and desires, the self doesn't. Because what self you have, I have the same. It's called atman.

Yeah.

So you know what I mean? We are the same. We might think we are unique, but it's kind of interesting to share. Like you taste something, right? And it's the same thing. And you're tasting it and you say, mm, I get this. You know, and we share in that. Even though it's a common thing, it's the same thing we are sharing and yet we take. We find different tastes and textures in it. And I think life is like that, you know, that as soon as we realize that we are all united, we are all one, you know, you call it divine or you call it self, or you call it atman. That there is this eternal thing that we have that squirrels have also. And then you have a very different attitude, I think, of how to experience things. Because your society and your culture tells you how to experience. Like falling in love.

Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I always ask what does it mean? What is that to be. Or for a matter of, you know, I said you identify as a woman. What does it mean to be a woman? Because I don't know what it means to be a woman. I know I'm a woman because Jim calls me by my pronoun she, and he says certain things to me that makes me feel differently. Right. So I understand we have these oversimplified classification and the need for it. But at the same time, we are culture, we can change it. So I feel, I tell my students that, be an advocate for yourself. That's it. Be an advocate for yourself. And what does that mean? Do you know what you want? First? Figure out what you want. Self awareness is very important. How do you get self awareness?

That's a scary prospect for some people because it means becoming aware of the self. Self awareness, right. And for me, as a counselor, one of the things I'll ask myself clients to think about is to be aware of their feelings, which is an uncomfortable thing for many people to do. And that's where a lot of healing starts, is let's notice the problems. And you could talk about this in many domains. Let's notice how low the bank account is. Let's notice how many arguments you've had with your spouse. Let's just notice how good or bad something is. If you can start there and become aware, then you're dealing with reality. And that really is mental health, mental illnesses. You're not in reality.

Exactly, exactly. I mean, and you know, as an anthropologist and a sociologist, we know that reality is culturally constructed. And so for students, it's like, no, it's not. I know what is real, you know, and that when. And I have a teenager at home. No, I don't have a teenager at home. He's 21 right now. He behaves sometimes like a teenager, or what we think teenagers do. It's. It's a hard one to know. Like, another thing is, you were saying to know what you are feeling. But you know, we are always told to control our emotions. Emotions. It's like, oh, I'm not allowed to feel it. I'm now going to control it. That's a hard one. You know, first of all, knowing what my emotion is, and then you're going to invalidate it by saying you need to control your emotions.

You know, that's a wild.

I do have to say one thing. You know, there are many people that have influenced my worldview, and one of them is Thich Nhat Hanh.

Oh, I know. Tikt or I know of his work.

Yeah. And one of the things he said is when you're angry, it's okay, you know, or angry said, but boil the anger first. Put a lid on it and let it sit and boil. Because we are told not to be angry. We are not told to feel those feelings. And I think it's very important to feel those feelings, to know why you are feeling and what you can do about it instead of controlling it. And I think that's where stress comes from.

You know, some people trying to hold those feelings in, which, okay, maybe let's not express them right away, but if you're really trying to repress the feeling itself, that it's going to bust out at the seams. And anger is a powerful emotion. Actually, probably all emotions are equally powerful,

but that one, I was just going to say.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that one, too. It's like, that's one that's not too socially acceptable. We've agreed people aren't allowed to go down the sidewalk screaming out loud. Okay, but why not? Right.

Well, they're allowed to do it in athletic field. And being a spectator, I mean, they are just angry. And I'm like, whoa, calm down, calm down there. You know, because I just think they're going to have a heart attack or something. They're screaming and they're really furious. And that's not considered bad.

It's culturally appropriate for the event. Yeah, exactly. Wow. This conversation has been fascinating. I believe we're out of time.

Yes.

I appreciate you coming in. You're right. We could go for hours. And you do. You do in the class. And by the way, if anyone listening wants to go for hours, you can sign up for a class here with Dr. Majumdar and take some anthropology or any other classes. Or any other classes. Yeah, because you can do this. This is what college is, is the sharing of ideas.

Yes.

So thank you for coming on this show. I got a few notes I need to stay here. Thank you. Thank our producers, Daedalian and Jeremy, who work so hard to make these productions possible here at LCC Connect. If anybody wants to access show notes for this, we'll have some of those online. If you want to listen to more podcasts, LCC Connect has a lot. You can go to LCC.edu/Connect. And then for students who are more interested in personal mental health, we offer free mental health counseling at LCC for college students, if you're enrolled at LCC, we have free mental health counseling for you. So please check that out. At LCC Edu counseling again. Kali, thank you for coming on the show.

Thank you so much.

Go ahead and be back at some point.

Thank you.