[00:00:00] Rob Bell: It was such an intense moment. I, I didn't really want that to stop. For some reason, I felt that. This outpouring of emotion was, was a way that I was still very connected to Jodi and that, you know, that might be as connected as I'd ever be. Again,

[00:00:18] Alex Melia: welcome to stories of Men Beneath the Surface. I'm Alex Melia.

Join me as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

In today's episode, we're talking about grief and how best to remember loved ones we've lost. Many years ago, Rob Bell started dating a woman named Jordy. Jordy loved dancing to eighties music. She always had a big smile on her face. Things didn't work out romantically, but Rob and Jordy became fast friends for more than a decade.

They stayed close, often having dinner together and sharing difficult moments. In the spring of 2019, Jordy tragically died. It was sudden caused by an aneurysm.

[00:01:10] Rob Bell: The funeral itself was a, a very difficult experience to get through, and I would, I was sobbing throughout. My whole body was shaking like my, my shoulders were going up and down and I was surrounded by people I didn't know. I went there on my own. At one point, I remember the guy next to me just just put his hand on my shoulder and said, are you okay?

But I think just because I was, I was physically so em, em, emotional at that time. When the service was over and we were ushered to leave the building, a line kind of started to form as people wanted to pay their very last respect to Jodi in her coffin. And I was quite near the back of this line, uh, as I'd been stood at the back of the crematorium throughout the service as this queue was, was getting shorter, and I was getting closer to that coffin at the front.

I mean, I just remember this anticipation that was building up inside me as to what I was. Going to do what I was going to say to this wooden box in front of me. I don't think I really had any idea about what I was gonna say, but I knew I wanted to do it. I desperately wanted to be there to have my own last few seconds there.

I do remember those slow steps being taken forward and kind of wanting to get to the front to end this anticipation, but at the same time, never really wanted to get to the front because I never really wanted to say that fight or goodbye. There was a group of three people in front of me, and they had their moment.

As I then stepped forward as, as they moved on, and I stepped forward up, up to that coffin. I, I, I just remember just wanting to say, um, just wanting to say, uh, Jody, um, I love you and I kissed my hand and I touched the coffin. And I left and it was ev, everything was a real blur. I remember that as I, as I walked out of that crematorium and I wasn't really seeing straight, I was hyperventilating enormously.

I was, I was gasping for air and I knew I just needed to get away and get, get somewhere to be on my own for a minute and try and just get through this. Massive wave of emotion that, um, that had hit me. So I just took myself off to the far side of the crematorium, as far away from anybody as I could, as I could see, uh, where there was a bench and I just sat down and it was, I remember it was sunny, it was cold, and I just sat there and I could see everybody off in the distance.

And I was weeping and sobbing so hard. It was such an intense moment. I, I didn't really want that to stop. For some reason I felt that. You know, this outpouring of emotion was, was a way that I was still very connected to Jodi and that, you know, that might be as connected as I'd ever be again.

[00:03:55] Alex Melia: Robert, thank you so much. How are you feeling speaking about

[00:03:57] Rob Bell: that? Yeah. All right. Thanks, mate. It's, um, I mean, she, she, she died on my 40th birthday. Um, so every birthday now is, You know, it's a, it's a big moment of reflection back on Jody, so every, every birthday.

[00:04:11] Alex Melia: Then what is the enduring thought that goes through your mind when you think about Jody?

[00:04:16] Rob Bell: I don't fear that moment of remembering Jody on my birthday every year. I don't, I don't fear it at all, and I, I know it's something that's going to come and it's going to hit me, and I almost look forward to embracing that moment and having that time that I will put aside and dedicate. To her over and above any other day.

And, um, it's a, it's a great reminder about all the values Jodi, um, um, exuded in life and, and to just to remind myself about that and to consider, I guess, reflect about where I am and to reflect on that, um, I guess awareness of mortality and the significance of trying to make the most of every single day.

And that is the overwhelming feeling whenever Jodi pops up in my mind about making the most of every single day. Is this some

[00:05:05] Alex Melia: way for the universe to kind of double down on her memory for you, for the fact it is on the, on your birthday? Sometimes I try not to read too much into these things, but sometimes it's just too much of a coincidence.

[00:05:16] Rob Bell: Yeah, I know, I know what you mean. And it's probably quite easy to do that, but I'm, I'm not overly spiritual in that sense, and I can see, I can see that for what it is that it's a day in the year. It's shit that that happened. And it's a coincidence that it happened on my birthday, but that I don't, I don't think there's a, I don't, I don't, I don't feel that there's any more significance to that.

That's my outtake on, on the universe as a whole. I'm not, uh, I'm not a massive believer of, um, of fate. I think stuff just happens.

[00:05:53] Alex Melia: Can you kind of detail one particularly memorable moment between you both, perhaps when you were a

[00:05:59] Rob Bell: couple? Yeah, I think there was probably one. There's one new year. Well, we'd all gathered around at, um, friends of mine and then we were gonna go down just down the road to a pub where we had tickets into a New Year's event and it was eighties themed.

Um, so Jodi was in her element. She loved Wham and George Michael. So she was in, um, like fluorescent pop socks and everything. Oh, dresses. Uh, Maverick and Top Gun. Great choice of costume. Of course, of course. It that, you know, it's timeless, that one. And, um, and on, on the way down. So we, we had a couple of drinks at my friend's house, and then on the way down to the, to the pub, which was only about a three minute walk, Jodie went over on her, on her heels and twisted her ankle and when she was in a lot of pain, but it didn't stop her dancing at all or going, um, or just really enjoying herself in the pub.

And, and, and I just, I just see it, and I, and I'd seen it a number of times as well. And there's a, there's another moment that really comes clear in my mind where it, just watching Jodi interact with some of my, some of my friends at, um, who I'd introduced to Jodi at, at a wedding that we are at, and her just telling a story and everybody around her just bawling with laughter, um, and joy and just pure happiness that she seemed to bring to everybody.

Yeah, I can, I can really. Picture those moments very, very clearly. I think when I was in that, in that line, Taking slow steps closer and closer towards that, um, that, that, that final position in the lineup by the coffin. I could, you know, I could easily visualize Jody in my mind, and, and she, she was always just dancing with a massive smile on her face.

I think that's all I could, I could remember. She was a really joyous person. And even at the, that, that, that funeral service, you know, we are playing her favorite tracks by Wham because everybody knew that's what she would've wanted there. And just the joy thinking about the happiness that she always had, the happiness that she always brought to everybody, including myself.

That was what I was thinking about as I was approaching that coffin, knowing that that was at an end now and that that was, that was gone.

[00:08:06] Alex Melia: We mentioned before you started recording, you'd never had any deaths in your network that had, you know, were unexpected. So this was the first one.

[00:08:14] Rob Bell: How did that feel?

It's really difficult when you get news like that, and I'm so grateful to Jodi's sister for calling me on the day that she'd passed because she knew that I was a close friend of hers. And it must have been an such an impossibly difficult phone call to make. But the news comes through. And I remember taking that news, taking it in, and my, my first feeling of duty was to Jodi's sister who was making that call and doing whatever I could to make that phone call was easy for her.

And it's a fairly short phone call. Um, and then you're off. And I was, I was home alone since that was my birthday and I just sat with those thoughts for. Probably a good hour or so, and then I just felt like I needed to get out the house. And when I, and I, do, you know what? I went, God knows why I went for a pizza.

I went out and I, I'd never, I'll never do that. I'll never just go, uh, into town and, and get food at lunchtime. But I went, I went out and I got a pizza. And on the way there, I phoned my friend, one of my closest friends, and I told him the news. I left a message with him. To tell him that news. Uh, him and one other friend I left messages with, and then I sat and had my pizza and probably distracted myself from properly thinking about it for as long as I could.

And then my friend phoned me back on my walk home and, um, it was just very factual still. I could only just give him facts. And then I rang my mom to tell her and she picked up and it was really difficult to tell my mom. Who knew Jody and was really fondly fond of her. And then that's, that's, it's a thing that's happened and you feel like you should be dealing with it in a certain way.

And I dunno what that is, but, but you kind of give yourself a hard time that you're not dealing it in that way. And there were tears and there were moments over the next three or four days where I'd be hit by this wave and I would just start crying. Thinking about it for two or three minutes, and then I'd gather my thoughts, calm myself down and get on with whatever else I was doing.

But then it probably wasn't until the, the anniversary of, of, of her death the following year that, um, that I had a real, again, on my birthday, that I had a real, um, a real, not a breakdown, but yeah, I guess, I guess a little emotional breakdown where. You're not in control anymore and you have this massive flood of emotions that come across you.

I think

[00:10:50] Alex Melia: back to funerals I've been to and with people I've been particularly close to, and we're not really taught in society, but how to deal with our feelings and emotions, with the grief and loss of, of loved ones are we and And how do you

[00:11:03] Rob Bell: deal with that? It's very difficult. I've been really fortunate to know both.

Both my parents are still alive. I think Joie passing. And turning 40 probably, which happened at the same time. I'm, I'm much more aware of, of mortality now, my own mortality and those of my loved ones around me, my friends and family. And I've n n I think about my parents so much more now than I, than I have done, uh, throughout the rest of my life and, and, and their mortality and that it really scares me.

It really scares me and I don't, I I think you are right Alex. I don't feel like I'm equipped to deal with how that makes me feel and it, cuz it's a fear of the inevitable. It's knowing that it is gonna be an overwhelming emotion again, and that there, there will be that sense of finality again that I had.

Uh, when I stood at the, um, end of Jodi's coffin, there again, there will be other moments like that for me and Christ. I'm, I, I dunno how to deal with that. It's, you are right. I don't think we are educated or in, in informed in many ways on how to deal with that.

[00:12:19] Alex Melia: You think about indigenous communities and, and other, other nationalities and they, they have more of a celebration.

Where we're in the UK we are very much in a very somber mood. It's all the grief emotions and it's just interesting how different cultures look at death

[00:12:34] Rob Bell: differently. It is, and I think, and I dunno if this is UK specific or maybe Western civilization specific, but what there's a, there's almost a fear about addressing it with people who have recently suffered the death of a loved one.

In those scenarios, I do consciously try and step out of that comfort zone that I have naturally grown up in, as you say, in the uk, and, and try and address it front on with whoever it is I'm, I'm speaking to, if, if they've. Recently suffered the loss of, of somebody. And it's, I think on the whole, I've found that it's, it's, it's much better received than you think it might be.

Um, because, oh, I dunno why, but I think, I think people really want to s well, understandably, people want to speak about that, that loss, and not necessarily about the, their own emotions, but about who that person was and how amazing they were. And that's, and it's, it's, I think, um, it's important that there is.

Someone, or there is uh, uh, some receptacle that people have to let that out and for that to be appreciated and recognized and, and you know, I want to hear that from, from friends who've, who've suffered the death of a loved one. You know, I, I want them to be able to have somewhere to, um, release out to.

That's, that's what I've, that's what I've, I find with deaths of people close to me, is that you are just desperate to tell other people about who, who that person was and wanting to share your experiences and your connection, um, and the influences that that person had on you. You want to, you're just so desperate to share that with other people like that.

That's, that's what I found. I, I definitely found that with Jody and wanting when I was. Telling my friends who knew Jodi, the news of her passing. I was so desperate for them to want to talk to me about their memories of her and, and just sharing that joy of, of who that person was. But I find that you can, you can find yourself wanting to do that with strangers as well, who you end up, you know, just through conversations and through daily life who you know ends up well, I've just lost this person.

You just wanna tell that person about who. That person who passed was, you wanna tell this stranger? You wanna tell everybody who that person was and what they meant to you, and in some way that helps, I think.

[00:14:54] Alex Melia: Yeah, and I think it's, you don't want their name to just be forgotten and who they were. You want to, even if the people that you're telling never actually met Jodi, you want them to know what kind of person she was to really.

Yeah, allow who she was as a person to endure over time. Because, I mean, the so is a sad reality is if you think about over the course of time, hundreds of years, not many people actually get remembered. Mainly the, the historical figures, the, the, the Gandy and the, the Nelson Mandela's, they're the, they're the names that everyone knows, but the amazing people like, like Jody over hundreds of years can get forgotten with, with time.

So we want to see how we can allow their name to endure and, and prevail.

[00:15:37] Rob Bell: And this is me being so dogmatic and practical about the way I see the universe. Is that exactly that. I don't have any kids at the moment. If I do go on to have kids, you know, when I pass, I'm sure they'll be upset, but then their kids, you know, if I knew them, they'd be upset if, if.

I didn't know them then they wouldn't be upset at all. Really. They're kids, whatever, doesn't matter. You know, that passing of time is, is brutal in how most people are remembered. And I dunno how that sits with me, but it's a reality. So you, you have to accept that. But in, in other ways that, that, again, Is this reminder to well make the most of what you've got, then make just you, you, you know, you're not a, we've not got loads of time on the planet.

B we're not gonna be remembered for much longer past that time. So you might as well just get stuck in and do everything you can. And that, and that is the overriding, I guess if there is a positivity. There isn't, but there are, and something I've taken out of, of the passing of Jodi. Is, is to really try and n stop putting stuff off cuz I, I'm very guilty of procrastinating and overthinking or trying to overanalyze and I think that's my, the way my brain works, you know, technical engineering, I like to analyze things and come to a, an absolute conclusion.

But often that absolute conclusion doesn't exist. You just gotta take a punt one way or another, but you've gotta do it. You've gotta do something. And that passing of Jodi was a massive catalyst for that, an absolute massive catalyst for that. And, and one of those things is for me to spend more time with my parents.

[00:17:20] Alex Melia: It's funny that you say that you're a procrastinator and you put things off because obviously I know the background of the fact that you've done seven marathons in seven days and you've got, what, three hours, 20 average on, on a lot of these things. So, but that seems like a pretty phenomenal achievement and also something that

[00:17:34] Rob Bell: people would remember.

Yeah, it was a big achievement. Yeah. God. You know, I think about that and, um, Jodi was there at the finish line of the, of the marathon we did in London. She came out, she, she had a, she had it pretty hard in her life. She had a double mastectomy cuz she had breast cancer. She got through that amazingly well.

She ran her own campaign about breast cancer awareness and made it approachable. And then she got diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis and had to have both her hips replaced. Um, Bounced back from that and this incredible person, and I remember she came out on crutches to, um, Hyde Park in January and it was freezing cold, but she was there at the finish line and it was so lovely to see her.

I'm so dependent on my network of, of close friends around me in how I've been influenced and how I live my life and, and also, um, About getting stuff done, because if I'm left to my own devices, I, I will overanalyze stuff until whatever it is that I was gonna do or not has passed. The times passed a lot.

A lot of my friends are, are very good and, and my girlfriend now is very, very good at, uh, making quick decisions and just getting on with stuff because I, I, as I've said, I, I can. Just kind of let things drag, but I'm so much happy when I just make a decision and get on with stuff and, and that is, that, that was something I wanted to do more out the back of seven marathons.

That is something I've wanted to do more off the back of Jodi dying and, and understanding and, and recognizing the, the limited time we have. So that, that is something I try and remind myself about probably more often than anything else in my life about trying to, trying to feel rewarded and trying to achieve all of my aims and goals and whatever it might be.

Is, is to. Just do stuff. Just, just get on and do stuff. Even if, even if it isn't the right thing to be doing necessarily, you'll find the right way eventually, but it's doing something is better than just sitting around trying to figure out what the next thing to do is. There's a lot of

[00:19:28] Alex Melia: beauty in the way it exemplifies the relationship that you, you both had, that she was willing to overcome, typical excuses that people would've had or, you know, you would've totally understood if she'd have said.

I'm so sorry I can't come to the London Marathon to see you over the finish line because I've had a double hip replacement. You're not gonna, you're not going to question that She's there to support you. And I think that's, that's a beautiful thing,

[00:19:49] Rob Bell: Joe. A absolutely, and I, and I do remember that very fondly cuz it was a moment where there, there, there was, there were six of us who did seven marathons and for whatever reason at the end of that London marathon, um, we had to go back to where all our kit was and kind of get.

Showered and changed, and then head to the airport and fly off to, uh, Cairo. It was, um, that evening to do a marathon the next morning. Um, And kind of everybody had their own little bits and bobs to do because we're in London. It was our home marathon. So there were friends and family there. And, uh, but I, I, Jodi kind of came along a little bit later and I'd stayed back cause I had some filming to do.

Um, then everyone else had gone off. But then Jodi and I had, uh, um, she jumped in the taxi with me back to the, our little HQ in London and we had maybe seven or eight minutes in that taxi just over a quick catch up before I had to get on and get off to the airport and fly off to, to Cairo. Um, but I remember it, it was great and was just, just really trying to get everything in that we possibly could and had this very, very quick catch up.

And, um, her just being so supportive of, um, of what was happening and what I was doing, um, and just going off getting off to, um, Heathrow to fly off, just being so happy that I'd managed to, to spend, um, a few minutes with her. Yeah, it was, that was, that was brilliant. I wanted to

[00:21:04] Alex Melia: speak to you about sobbing at the funeral from a man's perspective because it's considered an acceptable place for men to cry, and I've done that as well.

I've given a speech at my, my granddad's funeral and, you know, three quarters of the way through everything was going fine and then just saw someone else crying at. I broke down my voice, broke it off, finding it really hard to, to actually finish kind of crying and then speaking, crying and speaking. I'm feeling quite embarrassed about that actually.

If I was a woman, I don't think I would be embarrassed the way I was. But bec as a man, you're supposed to hold it together. You're supposed to be the strong one when everyone else is crying for you. How did you feel in the line? Crying and then also sat down at the bench sobbing. Were you concerned about people looking across at the, at the, you know, the ex-boyfriend crying and were you seen still as the ex-boyfriend or were you seen as a good friend of hers by, by different people?

What was your memories of that from your perspective? Were you, were you willing to surrender and just let go and go, you know what, an amazing friend has died, my ex-partner, I'm just going to just go with my emotions? Or were you conscious of what people

[00:22:17] Rob Bell: thought of you? I was surprised at, at how much I was crying in, in the crematorium during the service.

And I was conscious of, I guess I, I was slightly conscious of who, of who I was as being, um, you know, the ex-boyfriend for, but only for about a minute or so, and then I, I, it just didn't matter anymore. It just didn't matter. This was a physical reaction to. The emotions I was feeling, and they were so strong, but I just didn't care what people thought in that moment.

And I remember, I remember thinking that and then not thinking that because I didn't care anymore, Jodi was more important. What she meant to me was more important than what anybody else in there might have thought about me, which is unlike me because I, I am very conscious of, I'm very conscious of my surroundings always.

It was quite, quite refreshing in a way, I think, to be able to let your emotions out and not really care that I, I don't think I'd be able to point to many other times in my life where, um, I've felt that way. I do remember being in awe of Jodie's husband, uh, and his eulogy and, and the speech that he gave and how well he kept it together.

I could not put myself in that position. And to be able to do the same thing. I think as, as, as you said, Alex, you know, the, the, the smallest thing that you might see as a trigger for your own emotions to just come out and, um, take over from the, from the, the speech that you're trying to give and, and, and just destroy that.

I was, I was in awe at how, how composed he was. It was, it was, um, It was in, it was impressive. And um, I made a point to, to tell him that because I'm afterwards cuz I just thought that was incredible and it was probably really important to him that he did that. I think to be able to say what he wanted to say in front of all the people that were important to Jody and, and important to him, that would've been massively important that he could.

I guess go away from that knowing that he'd, he'd done exactly what he wanted to, to do there. Yeah. In, in incredible, incredible,

[00:24:30] Alex Melia: this was a different kind of episode as I love the fact that he stayed in contact with his ex. As many people don't do that. The friendship that they had together, the longstanding friendship massively exceeded the time that they spent together as a couple. A lot of people have told me that they completely cut ties with their ex, but why do we have to do that?

Perhaps they worry about their current partners not being comfortable with it. For me, I like to stay in contact. In a perfect world, you'd like to think you can stay in contact with your ex, but there's obviously many different kinds of situations and scenarios, and sometimes that just doesn't happen.

What's often not talked about is how you can gain from loss, and Rob certainly did that with Jody when she passed away. It helped him to appreciate his loved ones and to spend more time with them because after all, We don't know how long anyone's going to live for. I recently lost a very dear auntie of mine, auntie Margaret, who's from my father's side in Ireland, and it really hit me more than I initially anticipated.

After hearing this really sad news, I immediately contacted my parents and my siblings to see how they were doing, to really appreciate them more and to not take them for granted. My Auntie Margaret was ill for a while. But it still came as a shock to us, and I suppose that's what death does to you. It hits you when you least expect it.

It's almost this sudden realization that you can't see, touch or hear them ever again, which is something that just doesn't seem real. It made me think, how do we prepare for the inevitability of when our loved ones die? I hear from friends when they tell me about the loss of loved ones and how they didn't process their feelings at the time.

And they just go back to doing, doing, doing, doing their job, going about their day-to-day duties, but they don't allow themselves to really, to really be in that moment and to really feel their emotions. And then these emotions just hit you out of the blue one day when you least expect them and you just don't know what to do with it.

This isn't healthy. And it got me thinking that men could learn a lot from women on how to process these things. And I think all of this starts with education. So if we go back to our younger selves and our children as well, whether it's now or in the future, should we be teaching them on how to process their feelings in an emotionally healthy way so that they can deal with.

The emotions and feelings much better than we could once they become adults.