I don't know about you, but I've always wondered why artists create art.

Why do they feel the drive to do that?

Have you ever wondered that?

Well, in this episode, I'm going to be speaking with Kristen Swan on why she creates art.

It's a fundamental question, and I'll be telling you why I create art as well.

Welcome to Create Art Podcast.

I'm your host, Timothy Keem O'.

Brien.

With over 30 years in the arts and education world to help you tame your inner critic and create more than you consume.

I'm your head instigator, and I have started a new series here in 2025, and I'm calling it the New Artist Compass.

Now, why am I doing a new series?

Well, I've been thinking for a number of years, hey, what's it like to be a brand new artist?

What's it like to put yourself out there and pick up the pen, the chef's knife, whatever it is, whatever you're interested in.

So I'm going to be doing this series and I have a number of topics.

I have about 12 topics that I'll be talking about, and it's my hope that this helps you find your calling and gives you some of the ideas that new artists need to be successful in their calling.

These ideas and topics are what I wish I would have known to ask.

And as a new artist, you may not know to ask these things.

You may not know what these things are.

I'm lucky I, you know, went through college and got the experience there that I got.

But let's say you didn't.

Well, this series is going to help you as a new artist, answer a lot of questions, give you a lot of ideas, and get you well on your way to becoming the artist that's hidden deep inside you.

Today I'm going to be talking with Kristen Swan, and I met her through a service that I use called podmatch.

Now, what podmatch does is it connects podcast hosts and guests together and, you know, you can do your interview and have a really wonderful time.

It's a great community.

There's links in the show, notes on how you can be a member of Pod Match.

You can use my affiliate link if you like.

And I do, you know, need to let you know that sometimes there is some compensation that is put out there for the hosts by having these guests on.

I want to assure you that I only bring on guests here that I think you will benefit from.

So, you know, legally, I got to let you know that.

But let's get moving on with who Kristen Swan is.

So Kristen excels in leadership training, group moderation, writing, design, interviewing, and research.

After she had a career in landscaping design, she focused on business coaching.

And I know what you're thinking.

You're like, Tim, this is an art show, not a business show.

But you know, if you've listened to other episodes of mine that I work a 9 to 5, I work in business.

Kristen recognizes the challenges of founder syndrome and high burnout rates for professional service business owners.

And she has developed the 4S's of success, structure, systems, strategy, and space.

The 4S's provides a framework for independent owners and entrepreneurs who struggle to stay in their zone of genius and build profitable businesses.

Now, I'm just going to stop there for a second and go, as an artist, you're going to be an entrepreneur.

So you're going to want to listen to folks that have that business acumen and definitely take from them, take their advice, take their ideas and apply it to yourself.

Now, she has a journal out there.

It's called Spaghetti on the Wall.

And as a dad of twins, I have picked up many much spaghetti off the wall.

But this one is called Spaghetti on the wall and it's a journal with prompts to develop a habit of discernment and was written after noticing similar concerns among many of her coaching climates.

Now, her intent with Spaghetti on the Wall is to provide a simple tool for gathering multiple great ideas, noticing communication challenges, and recognizing patterns of behavior.

Folks, I have the links in the show notes for this.

You definitely need to go ahead and check out this journal.

Now, full disclosure here, I don't have a copy of it yet, but I do plan on buying it today.

So In September of 2025, that will be in my Amazon cart for sure.

Now, not only does Kristen have the spaghetti on the wall journal for you to look at, but she has a retreat workshop called Discovering your spiritual autobiography.

And that groom grew from an exercise that she had taught in the past.

And you know, she had a growing desire to do something about increased polarization and hostility in the United States and in the world.

Now, the workshop is non denominational.

It's in person, it's an experience.

And the original version was a eight week program meeting once a week.

And one and two day retreats are available.

So you'll need to go to her website to find out when the next one is.

So definitely check it out again.

Check out those show notes.

You'll get all the links for that.

All right, I've gone on long enough.

You know, you should be taking notes.

Pull out the notebook here today.

Take some notes on what you're going to be listening to today.

It's a conversation between Kristen and myself.

Not really your typical interview, just more of a conversation.

So I'm going to step out of the way.

All right, thank you, everybody, for joining us here on Create Art podcast.

And we're going to be talking about why we create.

And I have a wonderful guest here with me tonight, Kristen Swan.

And, Kristen, how are you doing, first and foremost, by the way?

Oh, gosh, I am doing great.

And I am just.

I'm thrilled to be here with you, Tim, and talking about a subject that is really near and dear to my heart.

I mean, really something that is vital to my.

How I operate and live.

I already feel like I'm talking with a kindred spirit here.

I love this already.

I love it already.

We can hit stop and we're good to go, but we're not going to, because I want to find out more about Kristen.

And so just to start off this conversation, because we haven't known each other since high school, so.

Right.

Can you tell me a little bit about when you knew you were an artist, kind of what was going on at that time and what was the inciting incident to.

To use a literary term?

Well, I think when I first thought of becoming an artist and took it seriously in terms of thinking about it other than a pastime for myself, because.

So I'll answer this question in two ways, and I'll start with.

With really being in middle school and having the opportunity to have dedicated blocks of class that were art class.

Right.

And recently, one of those very formative teachers I met in middle school, she recently passed away.

And she was just.

She was such a.

She looked the part.

Right.

I mean, she had this a little bit.

Definitely a hair cut that was different than the other teachers.

And when you'd go to English or math class and wore clothing that was a little bit more, you know, avant garde maybe.

But really, I think it was what was so alluring about her class and opened my mind to this possibility was her way of thinking about our creative selves and what.

And how to.

Because we're kind of squirrely, you know, a bunch of squirrely middle schoolers.

And.

And here we are.

It's.

We're doing drawing, and we're, you know, we're.

We're supposed to be.

She's teaching us that we start with drawing our hands and.

Well, and things like that.

And.

And we're just, you know, we're were just behaving, you know, as middle schoolers do.

And.

And so how to kind of how to open up that invitation to us in a way that got us settled down.

Right.

And really got us into a space where you could be.

You could be accessing that creative side of your brain that was essentially being translated into this artistic endeavor of drawing your hand.

And I think it.

Part of it was that it just.

Like my brain loved being there.

Like, my brain felt.

Do you know what I'm talking about?

Like, my brain felt good in that space.

It felt right.

It was just like, I'm supposed to be here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's almost been.

So I continued taking different classes in the art department.

And I really loved photography because I loved being in the dark room.

I liked.

I.

And I think that that process of when I found photography, especially in the.

And it was, you know, it was old school.

Was actually.

It wasn't digital cameras.

It was.

We had film and we developed it in the darkroom and then we printed our photos in the other part of the dark room.

And.

But I.

There is.

I have always been drawn to mediums that have a real physical nature to them that you are.

You.

There's that maker type of.

Of thing happening, and I think that's that piece that, you know, go to my way back when I was much more, what.

Much smaller and younger and doing, you know, doing things like sewing with my grandmother, doing things like cooking.

Right.

Doing those activities that I think are.

Are artistic and creative endeavors and had that maker element to them, if that makes sense.

Kind of that tactile feeling with that.

That you're.

You're using your hands, you're using your senses as opposed to maybe.

Well, I don't know, because writing, you know, I get a tactile feeling with writing when I'm using a pen and paper.

But it's.

We're not doing a video for this.

But, you know, if the listener can imagine me just holding out my hand there and holding a pen, you're doing that same motion as a writer.

But when you're knitting, when you're sewing, you're going in and out and it's the dance of your hands.

Right.

I did for my kids, I did babies blankets.

I was doing.

I was having carpal tunnel before they were born.

So I had the surgery and for my therapy, I made baby's blankets.

Wow.

Haven't picked up a set of sticks since then, but.

So I. I can't.

I. I get what you're saying.

There well, and I think that it's.

I mean, and I am a big believer in putting pen to paper.

I do.

I love that and I love that, that feeling.

I think maybe what we're both getting at here a little bit is that for something like knitting, something like sewing, and then even later in my artistic exploration, I was doing things like printmaking and where I was making my own plates out of found objects.

And.

And then also I did dabbled in, in caustic work.

And so there are, there are very set there, there specific actions that you are doing that are kind of set aside from your other day to day types of activities.

So when I'm.

So I think maybe that's some of it.

Not that it really matters, but that's some of that, at least in my head, that differentiation.

Because I mean, if I pick up a pen and paper, there are times when I'm picking it up to write the grocery list, and then there are times when I'm actually picking it up to do something that is more in line with my creative process.

Right.

But it's the same activity.

So I think there was something great about those specialized activities that resulted in that, that were part of that creative process for me.

Would you say it's kind of like the intention, like if you're, you know, sitting to writing a grocery list, you know, the.

Not necessarily.

I don't know, some people may have a really artistic grocery list.

I've made homes out of grocery lists.

Yeah, exactly.

I'm thinking.

Well, and also I'm thinking of my friends who are so wonderful at little doodles.

And I can just see like this beautiful, you know, list of vegetables with these gorgeous little vegetable doodles, you know, next to them.

I could, I could definitely see that there are people who have beautiful grocery lists.

So.

Yes.

No, nothing to disparage the, the grocery list.

No, we don't want to lose that loser that, that, that listener base here tonight.

No, no, absolutely not.

We love you, grocery list list makers.

We love you all.

All three of you.

Yes, absolutely.

But I, I think kind of what you're saying there is though, kind of the intention of it.

Yeah, yeah.

Apart from the three people that make beautiful grocery lists.

We'll keep them over here, we'll put them in the artist corner there.

And I hate that term, the artist corner, the poet's corner.

I'm like, no, I, I want to be in the middle of the room and doing something.

But it's that intention that really drives what's going on.

It's kind of A dance with the hands or, you know, what have you.

Right.

And that, that's fantastic.

Got me daydreaming, thinking about, you know, the, that that great space where you are doing that.

That kind of your brain is engaged, your.

Your body is in this flow with doing this dance and you know, and you're.

You' or at least in my case, my heart feels so full.

And I think that I really also, you know, I'm a big believer that we are all creative.

Right.

I mean, I, so I, I also am always pushing back a little bit around, you know, whether or not to use the word artistic or art.

And then the idea of being a creative person or bringing your creativity to, to anything that, you know, problem solving to, you know, even to kind of travel or, you know, work situations, you know, interpersonal kinds of things.

It's so, it's the.

I, yeah, it's.

It's that I think that there was such good information early on for me about how much I loved where my, my.

How my brain felt in when I was accessing that creative side of me that I, I have further kind of.

I.

Part of my journey and kind of professionally has been how do I keep that did.

Even if I'm doing things that aren't considered traditionally in a creative field or artistic, how do I keep that same type of engagement in my thinking, in my, in my, you know, the.

What's those thought processes that are going on.

Sure.

And I think it's one of the reasons why this podcast is called Create Art Podcast is that way you can use both words.

I was just like, yeah, I know one word.

Use them both.

You know, the heck with that.

I, I think, and I don't know your experience with this, but, you know, when I was growing up, there was always the, I guess the art kids and then the jocks and then the stoners and, and all that kind of stuff.

And I was always attracted to the art kids and the stoner kids.

And I think, I don't know when this happened, but I, I think artists got kind of a bad name because, you know, we're these people that nobody understands.

And I think, you know, way back in the day, I think that's partially artists fault for not connecting with their audience, not knowing who their audience is and you know, making, you know, art that's relevant to.

It doesn't have to be pop music, it doesn't have to change the world, but, you know, somebody's got to kind of understand what you're going after.

And for me, I look at art as communicating the crazy stuff that goes on up here because there's not much hair, so it's easier to get out.

I'm not recommending everybody go shave their head, but I think one of the things that I've learned is using art as communication to find out this is how I view the world.

I want to show it to you in whatever, you know, photography, sculpture, music, whatever it is.

And with the people that listen to me, they seem to connect with it better.

And the other thing that I find is that there's that communication, there's that feedback.

So it's not always crickets.

When I go out, I get some feedback and I feed off that feedback.

Feedback.

And I. I don't know if that's been your experience or if that's something.

If that resonates with you at all or.

Or is it just me and my bald head?

No, it's.

Definitely.

Well, there's a couple of things that I want to touch on that.

You said that really.

So I.

When I entered college, I was a fine art major.

And I.

Because of this, you know, there's this.

This awakening in middle school that this is a thing that you can do.

And so I am determined.

That's what I'm.

That's what I'm going to study in school.

And I.

And that was a great experience I got.

I met just some really wonderful, very generous professors who really guided me and were so.

Um.

My printmaking professor was so wonderful in that I was doing something that was so.

Could not be more opposite than his style and his aesthetic and even the materials he was using or that I was, you know, cobbling together and how wonderfully just generous he was in.

In terms of his support.

So I feel like.

I feel like I had this kind of wonderful collective experience in a way, when I was in college.

And then when I thought about.

There were kind of a couple of things that.

That really kept me from pursuing art once I graduated.

And it was going back to that communication piece.

One of the things that I think makes for really powerful pieces and impactful pieces, and it doesn't.

I'm not talking about like, you know, a million people love it, but just that it really resonates with an audience is that you are sharing something, a truth of yourself.

You're.

You're.

You are.

Whatever your medium is that you are taking something of yourself and putting it forth.

And that is.

That allows for that.

That point of connection with your audience.

And that was as a newly graduated person from college, that felt too Scary.

In that moment I could not do that.

So I, I kind of messed around with doing a few pieces and I would kind of half heartedly, you know, do this and that, but they didn't have any, I mean they were boring pieces because they weren't really, they weren't saying anything in terms of, they weren't reflecting anything in any, any thing of meaning or truth for myself.

So there was that piece of myself just that I couldn't do that.

And then I think, I don't know if I did this as a defense mechanism just to kind of push the idea of being an artist away.

But I, I also by that time had had enough experience with other young artists and then kind of looking throughout art history at some of the more, you know, well known famous artists and it's like, oh gosh, in order to be a great artist, you, you are.

It's selfish.

It's a very selfish endeavor.

Right?

You're, you are putting yourself first.

And it's just.

And so I, I kind of built up this story around like that's, and really do I.

Is that the kind of person I want to be?

And you know, and I made up this whole thing and I, like I said, I think it really was this, this way of talking me out of a dream.

I had to be an artist and make a living out of being an artist.

And I am grateful that, you know, we were saying that this episode is all about why I create.

And as much as I was doing all of this distancing, right.

Whether it was in my own head or just even not doing any art, I couldn't hide from that impulse to create.

I mean, it would just, it, it would ooze out in all sorts of little ways that whether it was, you know, when I had, was renting a room with roommates, you know, putting together my room and how I, I set up my room and, and just the things that I chose, you know, I didn't have a lot of things, but the things that I chose to include or even, you know, in cooking again, right.

We're talking about food.

I mean that to me is such a creative endeavor.

So was it couldn't, you know, the creativity could, had to come out some.

Way and you yourself couldn't contain that.

It was, it was going to come out.

That's.

Yeah.

For sure.

When you say that it had to come out, had to ooze out and you were finding different ways for that to happen.

You know, the things that you picked for your room that you're sharing with other people, with roommates, I guess, has sustained you with your artistic practice or what is it about this creativity that we have to put out into the world, that, you know, birth into the world, however you want to put it?

How has that sustained you?

How has that kept you going?

Yeah, I, I.

What has occurred to me because I feel like I, you know, there's.

There's a definite arc in terms of the ways that my creative, artistic self has expressed it, you know, has found a way to, to be expressed.

And I now find myself in this space where I am doing much more writing.

And, and the kind of awareness that I, I just came to recently was that creativity for me and is a.

And especially through some sort of artistic expression is the means that I have found to get to know myself and to understand myself.

And it was.

I grew up in a kind of a chaotic household, and so there was a lot of, A lot of my coping skills were to just.

I felt like I was usually just trying to keep things steady.

Right.

I'm.

I'm trying not to rock the boat.

I'm trying not to be too loud.

I'm trying not to be too messy.

I'm trying not to, you know, I'm just.

There are moments where I'm just trying to disappear, and there are.

And as a result, it didn't.

I got very good at.

I was pretty vigilant, sometimes hyper vigilant.

So I'm.

I got very good at understanding, kind of reading the room and that it didn't allow for me to get acquainted with who I was.

Right.

And so it has been through these different, these different types of creative endeavors that I get to know who I am better.

And I don't think, and I think why I am landing on writing now is that I think I literally didn't have the language back then.

Right.

Even as a young adult, even as a, you know, a mom, I still didn't have the language.

And so I still was.

I, you know, was leaning into.

I, I was a landscape designer for many years.

I was, you know, I, I did other types of design projects.

I did, you know, and it has been through these different explorations that I, I now feel like in this moment, I have both the combination of an awareness, a willingness to be more vulnerable.

Right.

Going back to that, that earlier fear that I had of really putting together art for the, you know, visual art that revealed anything about myself.

So I, I am at this moment of this awareness and this willingness.

And.

Yeah.

And I, I can so.

So in this moment, words Are.

My writing is, is my outlet for this.

I mean, I still cook and I still, yeah, you know, dabble in the garden and things like that.

But, but that is, this is really.

And it's.

And I'm not saying that I'm.

I'm great at what I write or anything like that, but it just, it just feels right.

I. I think that's the important thing.

It definitely feels right.

You're.

Something that you said there that really I was just like, oh my God, let's just do a whole episode on this.

Was that, you know, you're getting to know your.

Yourself through these different, through these different artistic endeavors that you're doing, these creative endeavors.

I'll use both words.

It doesn't matter.

Yeah, we're going to use, we're using both words interchangeably here.

We're getting paid by the word here, folks.

That's what it is.

That's right.

That's right.

Sue less if you don't like it.

But you're introducing yourself and you're seeing yourself in different fat.

It's kind of like the word collage comes to me.

I have tried collage one time and I was cutting up some comic books, which.

My comic book dealer, that's the best way I can call him because he feels sometimes like a drug dealer, but now he's my dealer.

He looked at me, he was like, oh my God, what are you doing?

You're cutting this up?

And I was like, no, this is.

There's a certain way in a certain pattern for this and it made.

And I have that picture there right there.

But I know it's way in the background.

I'll.

I'll send you a picture of it.

But it's, it's the only time I've done collage and I was amazed with what I could do with it.

And when you were saying that, you know, you're getting to know yourself through these different facets, it just made me think of collage and it made me think of, you know, I'm getting to know myself through, through music, through writing, through painting.

I paint like a four year old on crack.

I'm good with that.

That's okay.

Part of me is a four year old on crack.

I'm happy with that.

You get to see these different facets of yourself.

And when you.

Because I'm of a certain age, you know, I'm seeing myself in the different changes and the different growth that I'm seeing.

That.

That it's like, wow, there's some pretty crazy stuff about Me, but there's some pretty really awesome stuff about me as well.

And when I'm practicing these different arts and I'm seeing myself through that, then I'm getting to know myself better and I'm feeling better about myself.

For me, that's why I create, because I want to find out what's next.

What am I going to get in?

What are, you know, am I going to be the crazy old uncle?

Uncle kind of there already.

But, you know, how crazy of a crazy old uncle can I be?

I'm excited to see what that's going to be like, so.

Well, it is.

I.

And to your point, it.

It is.

Embracing our creative selves is a. I feel like it's so life affirming because there is a. I truly believe that there are.

We are infinitely creative.

Right.

I.

It's.

It.

There is no expiration date on it.

There is, there's, you know, you don't.

It's not like a, you know, it doesn't run out.

It's.

It.

It is.

It's always there.

And you know, you were talking about music and we were.

And I mean, I think about too.

I am much more aware of the ways that I feed that creative side of myself through, you know, listening to other people or what, going to other exhibitions or.

Or, you know, ex.

Just being in contact with other people's creativity too is so nourishing and, and just kind of can spark some new ideas.

So there's a real.

I just feel like there's such a.

It's.

For me, I find this practice to be very grounding and also very life affirming that there's, you know, and it keeps me excited about.

Yeah.

What.

What is next?

What do I want to do next?

What is it?

What's, you know, and.

And the other thing, the other, you know, thing that I know to be true is, you know, you do the one thing that you're thinking about trying out and doing and it kind of leads to something else.

And you don't.

And a lot of times you don't really know what that something else is.

Mm.

You kind of leave it up to the universe, you know.

Yeah.

And I think because.

Because we've been talking a lot about kind of the emotional, physical, you know, with the hands dancing.

I'm gonna.

From now on I'm gonna think hands dancing.

Whenever, you know, my.

My wife or my kids are knitting, I'm just, oh, your hands are dancing.

So thank you for that.

No, I blame you for that now because I'm like, I Knit.

Never thought of that until I started talking with you.

So.

But, you know, we're talking about the.

The.

The emotional and the physical stuff, and then there's kind of the spiritual aspect, I think, to it as well, where.

And we were touching just a little bit on that.

And I'm a big believer in kind of this collective unconsciousness.

That's what I called it there.

There's just something about the.

The community of creatives and artists that are out there that, you know, it's kind of one of the secret reasons why I do the show is that way I can meet awesome people that I can go, man, I got to get you down to Virginia.

Let's go and have a cup of coffee and talk art all night.

But, you know, there's just something that.

That feeds my soul, talking with other people.

And it's something you said earlier about, you know, going to these shows and feeding yourself with that creativity and with that art, artistry.

Again, we're using both words.

Yay.

And there's just something about that.

And so I just.

I wanted to let you know that I caught.

That's what I caught out of what you said.

Well, and I think especially for so many people in this moment that we live in, there is an ability to program so much of your life and to have, you know, you can.

You can listen to exactly what you want to listen to from your playlist, your.

Whatever.

You can watch exactly what you want to watch from your streaming.

You can, you know, you can find the articles or, you know, books or whatever that are completely in alignment with your belief system.

And.

And so there are these ways that we can.

And in my way of thinking, that can be very numbing and very kind of dulling in terms of our.

Just our sensory, you know, that our.

Our world of sensory, you know, how we receive just information and.

And not just information, but just vibration, too.

Right.

And so I.

One of the things I really love to do is I love seeing live performances because, you know, thinking even.

I mean, concerts, for example, it's.

That night is only going to be.

Even if it's the same set list.

Yeah.

But it still is going to be entirely unique in that moment.

That play that you go and see live on stage is.

Even though they're saying the same words because that's what they've learned, it still is unique in that moment.

And so I think that is a big part of the.

And not to say that I can listen to a studio album and be fed creatively, but there's the Additional spark of when you are able to experience something live, that it's just gonna be that way just in that one time and it'll be different the next night or it'll even, you know, it'll be different even more different a week from now.

Kind of reminds me of the Peter Frampton Coming Alive album, the live album on that.

So fantastic album.

I do have it, of course, you know, because I love vinyl and.

But a lot of my, A lot of my vinyl is a jazz live, you know, live sessions.

And unfortunately, most of my jazz heroes passed away before I was even born.

So it's like, ah.

But I've kind of always wondered, okay, so we'll take Peter Frampton Coming Live.

Was there a better show show a week later, a month later that they just didn't capture?

And if there was, man, I mean, that album is a fantastic album, but if there was a better show, I missed out on it because I'm only listening to one version of it.

And even though it's a live album, you're just listening to one version of it.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, that's certainly, I think about these jam bands, right, that, that build this following.

And yeah, because they are seeing a completely different show each night and it's in.

And that is, you know, built into the premise of the.

And is the success of those bands in so many ways.

And so there.

And I think that that is, that is a, A real kind of fundamental need that we have as humans.

And I, I don't.

I think I also want to be careful to differentiate between kind of chasing kind of continually new experiences, right?

Because I think that in some ways is the algorithm, so to speak, of social media scrolling, right?

And that's how they basically have taken this kind of.

This, this human characteristic of loving kind of new things, right?

And.

And used it against us.

So that is, that's the other reason why I stay committed to a creative process of some sort.

Because as I was saying, there is this grounding that happens and I am.

I get to be.

I get to be the author of my own life.

I get to be.

I get to be engaged with what's happening in a way that I'm not mindlessly, you know, ingesting something that someone else has figured out is, Is going to kind of trick my brain into feeling that same kind of goodness of, of these kind of unique experiences that we're talking about.

And I think there's something to the effect of, let's say you're listening to a record, a John Coltrane record.

And it's not a live one, it's a studio one.

And every time you listen to it, you catch something new in it.

It's the same song, same notes.

Cat, just your attention is just.

Maybe you're doing the dishes or doing some gardening.

I can't garden.

I don't have a green thumb.

But let's just pretend in the theater of the mind that, you know, Tim's a good gardener.

What?

Tim is learning from Kristen how to be a good gardener.

There we go.

I like that better.

And so.

And you're listening to it, and you're studying it.

And that's one of my faults, I find, sometimes, is that, you know, I'll listen to it and I'll study it, and then sometimes I'll forget, just sit back and enjoy it.

I am horrible to go see a live theater with because I used to do lighting design, so I know all the tricks.

I know what they're doing.

I bring a notebook with me, and I write it down.

Oh, no.

And my wife is like, if you bring the notebook, I'm not coming with you.

And I'm like, okay, but.

All right.

But this is why they're doing it.

And she's like, you cannot talk through the performance.

You have to sit here and watch it and enjoy it.

I'm like, oh, okay.

So I sit in my hands and do it.

But, yeah, I'm horrible to go to live theater with, so I don't recommend it unless you take me to a musical.

And I'm not a big fan of musicals, so I'll sit and shut up and listen to that.

I thought you were gonna say that you sing along.

Only to three musicals.

Jesus Christ Superstar.

Okay.

You have to sing along to that one.

Oh, my gosh, yeah.

Sweeney Todd, just because it is such a cool one.

And Assassins, you know.

You know, Sondheim is my guy, so Andrew Lloyd Webber, I guess, is my guy, too.

But, yeah, those are the three that I'll sit and sing along to.

I'll.

Even.

Now, here's the weird thing.

I can sit and listen to opera and love it and just be entertained by it because it's in a different language, and I don't understand necessarily what's going on.

So I'm watching what's happening, you know, on the stage there.

So I'm able to take myself out a little bit and enjoy it that way.

But, yeah, you give me a regular American musical, you know, Oklahoma.

No.

And what got me into art, my inciting incident is Guys and Dolls.

In high school, I was a freshman, and they had me running the.

The main curtain and the pin rail, so I'm flying in scenery.

And on the very last show, I remember one of the lead actresses came up to me.

She.

I had closed the curtain.

The show was done.

You know, the seniors were graduating.

They were on to bigger and better things.

She comes over to me.

She's like, this is your first show, isn't it?

I'm like, yep.

She planted the biggest kiss on me.

And I've been in theater ever since.

Oh, my goodness.

I love that.

I love that story.

That's so good.

It's not profound.

It's just somebody slapping a kiss on me because I was supposed to be there at that time to make it happen.

So.

But yeah, yeah.

No, I mean, a lot of these.

A lot of these reasons why our lives take these twists and turns are not necessarily these.

These big, you know, very serious or.

Or as you said, profound kinds of things, right?

It's.

It's.

It can be.

It can be a kiss at the end of the show.

I mean, it can be, you know, the art teacher who has kind of a.

The funkiest haircut in the school and is.

And talks about drawing your hand in a way that doesn't just make your eyes glaze over.

Right.

And.

But I do.

I think that there's.

I love what you were saying about the.

The beauty in revisiting pieces of art and whether music and I think about books that I've reread over time.

Right.

And just that, again, that.

That conversation, essentially, that's happening, that communication, right.

That you were talking about with a.

A piece of art.

And I mean, I'm using art in the big.

All the mediums that, you know, it.

It.

I think about certain paintings that I. I visit when, you know, that I just love seeing, you know, time and time again and the ability.

I mean, that is such a.

One of the wonderful things about creative expression is that at different moments, it can say different things to us.

Right.

We can notice different things depending on where.

What.

Where we are at in our lives or where.

Where we've just, you know, a recent experience or just even some, you know, some miles down the road.

So there's.

And I think that there's also too.

I love kind of bringing that back to a personal creative practice that I think that it's worth, as I think about doing, you know, let's just say in this moment, writing.

Sure.

I have to be willing to kind of kill my best idea, so to speak, right.

A Charlie Mungerism.

And sometimes there's something I also like.

What's a great idea that you had that maybe didn't.

Or maybe it wasn't a great idea?

What was an idea that you had that didn't necessarily get fully developed or one that did get fully developed?

And what would it be like to revisit it to, too?

You know, I think that there's, again, you know, the beauty of all of this that we're talking about is that not just the hands dancing, but there is this dance of ideas and how you.

And concepts and images maybe, and sounds that.

That you can.

Yes, there's.

As I was saying, I think that there's an infinite well of creativity that we can.

Whether it's our collective well.

Or however we choose to see that.

But there is that piece.

But, yeah, it's.

It's also.

You can revisit things, too.

Like, there's just this wonderful elasticity that we can explore when we are in our creative selves.

Yeah.

Amen.

Amen to that.

And just listening to your talk about this, it just.

In my head, I'm sitting here pointing at myself going, tim, listen to this.

When this interview is done, listen to this again, especially, you know, minute 52 and four seconds where we're at here, however it ends up, listen to it.

Because I have three novels that are partially completed, and it's, you know, I haven't abandoned them, but they're there and they're sitting in the back of my head, and it's like, get done with them.

Get done with them.

Get them out in the world.

They're really good.

And.

And hearing you, you know, getting into your writing.

And lately I've been doing a lot more music and a lot less writing, but now I'm like, yeah, writing was my first love.

And, you know, well, theater was my second because, you know, I got a good smooch, but, you know, it's reminding me, get back into it.

Because that's.

That's kind of my sweet spot there.

That's where I belong.

That's where I felt way back when I was a kiddo.

That's where I belonged.

So you've inspired me just in this conversation to go ahead and do that.

So, yeah, three novels.

Got to the end of the year to do it.

So we're recording here in.

In.

In at the end of August.

So I've got four months to do three novels.

I'm seeing it for you.

I definitely see it for you.

Well, and I also.

What I will.

I mean, And I'm going to say this for myself, really, and share it with you is there are.

It's so funny because I mentioned that that just kind of that.

That, you know, that feeling that I felt in my brain when I first, you know, recognized this thing of.

Of art and really getting into that creative space of my brain and how good it felt.

And I feel like there is this struggle that I can have and especially as kind of life's responsibilities, right.

Started getting.

Feeling more, you know, heavy or more that there were.

The consequences were bigger.

Right.

Or just, you know, so life got more serious.

And.

And I. I think that there is this part of me that is.

I have to really give myself permission to.

To say it's okay to.

To do this thing that you feel so alive doing.

And it doesn't, you know, you don't know what's happening to it.

You don't know where it's going.

It doesn't.

It's, you know, it's.

It's not going to pay the bills.

It's not, you know, getting.

It's not going to, you know, get the laundry done or whatever other mundane thing.

Right.

That can get in the way.

And I mean, perhaps it's procrastination, pure and simple, but there is almost also, I think, more than.

Yeah, there's almost this inner struggle that I have to have around being a responsible human is somehow in opposition with the creative being that I am.

And that is.

And that's a.

That's actually just not true.

And so I need to really be reminding myself that there's.

That those are.

They are.

They are compatible, and those are.

They.

They actually make great neighbors.

And in fact, sometimes can be, you know, significant others with each other, you know, so.

Yeah, just reminding myself to kind of get out of my own zone of judgment or whatnot.

Well, you were saying something about an hour ago, and I love that this is, you know, it's.

It's like I looked at the time, I'm like, oh, we've been going for a while, which is great.

But something that you had said very early on when you had graduated college and you were feeling selfish about, you know, doing your art, and it really impacted you.

And then to today, you know, here In August of 2025, you know, you're a parent, I'm a parent, and we have these responsibilities, and I think sometimes we.

I'll say it for me.

I'm not going to say it for you, but I'll say it for me.

Sometimes I take these responsibilities and use it as my, I say it's responsibility, but it's procrastination is really behind it.

Because when you said procrastination, I'm like, oh, I raised my hand on that one.

I know, yeah.

But I think sometimes it masks itself as well.

I have all these responsibilities.

But then it challenges us to use that little bit of time that we have.

Maybe it's 15 minutes, maybe it's an hour for me.

I do a lot of recordings Sunday mornings when everybody's asleep for about an hour or two.

But I maximize that time.

I really, I set up that time every week and I maximize, optimize that time so that way I can get the most out of that one or two hours.

And you know, kind of setting that limitation forces me to find a creative solution for that because I want that dopamine hit of, hey, I created something.

You know, there's 8 billion people on the planet.

How many have four books of poetry?

How many have.

How many paint like a four year old on crack?

You know, not too many, not too many that will admit to it.

But you know, there's not that many people that, that do that.

There's not that many people that have access to this community of, of artists and creatives and inspiration seekers.

Oh, I even fit in the word inspiration into that now.

Yes.

You know, we're a consumer culture.

One of my taglines is create more than you consume.

Yes.

Because you never know what you're going to create.

You never know what's going to pop out.

One question that I did have for you though, it was that you were talking about your process and when you're doing a different medium, a different style, is that creative process, generally speaking, the same?

Obviously it can't be the same exact, you know, thing because, you know, playing a musical instrument versus cooking versus gardening versus writing is using different skills.

But the overall creative process, is that the same or do you tailor it to each different practice that you do?

I would say overwhelmingly, my, my creative process is very much about is.

Has some distinct similarities and it is, it is when I can get out of my head.

Right.

So I am just immersing myself in whatever the medium is.

And part of that getting out of my head is getting out of thinking about, you know, am I trying to do something for someone else, sir, or someone else's taste, so to speak.

Right.

So yeah, it's a big part of it is that.

And the other, the other part that has become more and more important and allows me to have, allows me to have more Fun with it and also just allows me to create more is to really not get hung up on the final product.

Right, sure.

So allowing for that, that process of discovery and so, you know, remaining curious and then also not, not feeling like it has to, I guess accepting that it could be a stinker, you know, letting that, that, you know, allowing for there to be a dud every, you know, as, as often there as there is a dud and just in the end to keep going.

And you can always revisit it later on.

Exactly.

You know, so you're never running out of ideas or inspiration.

We're not waiting for the inspiration theory.

We're just going, okay, I don't have anything right now.

Oh, that was really horrible.

Let's try that again.

Well, I think that's why I come back to, you know, it's in.

And I love what you were saying about scheduling a time for your recording and, and staying faithful to that.

Because the, I think one of the biggest myth is myths is this idea that, you know, there's this wonderful creative muse that's, you know, out there and is gonna strike and it's just gonna be like, wow, you know, the heavens part or the veil gets lifted and you just.

Everything is, comes together.

It's.

I think that's why, you know, coming back to cooking ends up being this really fun creative endeavor.

And it's, it's such low stakes because, you know, if it doesn't turn out well, you just, well, okay, maybe I have a hard boiled egg or some cereal or something and if, you know, and you also, so, I mean, you gotta eat so you, you kind of get an opportunity to, to keep doing it.

Right?

I mean it's, it's built in, so it is this.

And you also don't have this kind of endless amount of time to do it in too.

Right.

I mean, you, you, you gotta, you gotta get it ready for, you know, before it's time for the next meal.

So I think that's one of the reasons why I always come back to cooking is this thing, this great low stakes way to, to really just play and, and in your.

When you're feeling your least creative or your least, you know, inspired, that can be a place to start or at least a place to land.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Oh, I'm just thinking of all the meals I made in college.

Ramen noodles.

Now that's creativity.

When you can make ramen noodles taste wonderful, so.

Exactly, exactly.

I know.

Well, and I'm guessing that pretty soon, speaking of my family is going to Be looking at me saying it's time for you to get creative in the kitchen.

Absolutely.

That's a perfect spot for us to end on.

So Krista, I definitely want to thank you for joining me here tonight.

Your, your, your insights and everything that we have talked about here as has inspired me.

I know it's going to inspire our listeners out there.

So thank you very much.

Is there anything coming up in 2025 by the end of the year?

Because we already know I'm writing, you know, I'm finishing up a few novels here.

So I, how about you?

What, what are we looking forward to for the rest of 2025?

Gosh, the rest of 2025 is really, is, is already pretty mapped out and a lot of it is.

I have been having so much fun hosting and leading, facilitating these discovering your spiritual autobiography workshops where we really dive into storytelling and both, you know, the participants and myself.

So it's a great way to be in community and be creating together.

So I, I always look forward to my groups and I do retreats and I do also a longer eight week type of meeting.

So that's really fun.

And I've got, I've, I'm going to be doing some more of those and then I've, I have a new workshop that I'm playing around with.

So it's, it is called the Circle of Connection and it's about curiosity, creativity and community.

So again these themes that are super important to me and, and things that came up tonight and so it's, I love at this moment that is kind of how I'm playing with creating and getting it out in the world and then getting both kind of immediate feedback in the actual realm of sitting in the room with folks and, and then also, you know, getting some time to digest as after, you know, after a workshop is done.

So it's.

I am, yeah.

So I'm having a lot of fun with that right now.

So I'm, I'm, I'm looking forward to finishing out the year strong with just connecting with as many people around these themes of curiosity, creativity and community.

Perfect.

Well, we're going to make sure that we have the show notes in there for everybody.

So definitely this is one of the episodes.

Go through the show notes and you know, I might have a little surprise in there for you.

Like you know, my recipe for.

Oh my God, ramen noodles.

So.

And you know, maybe we can get, you know, you to give us a little recipe there too.

Just, just as a bonus for folks.

I'm just saying.

Oh My gosh.

Yes, I have such.

Oh, I, I already know what I want to share.

So there you go.

Done and done.

So you have to read the show notes in order to find out because we're not going to say a word about it.

We're done.

Nope, nope.

My lips are sealed.

There you go.

I'm not telling anybody.

So.

But anyhow, it's been such a pleasure.

Thank you so much.

I feel like I've talked with a kindred spirit here and so just thank you so much for this.

Oh, thank you, Jim.

This has just been a real joy and yes, it's it.

I love all the twists and turns we took, so thank you.

You got it.

Alright, that's the show folks.

Thank you so much to Kristen Swan with sitting down and talking with me about why she creates art.

And remember she has the spaghetti on the wall journal that can help you out with your process.

You know, getting it down.

Sometimes when we write this stuff down, you know, take that pen to paper and get that tactile feeling.

It's going to help you out and it's going to give you a good base for where your creativity needs to go.

So definitely check out the show notes for that.

Check out Kristen Swan and her website and get the journal.

Like I said, I'm buying it today so I can definitely report back to you and tell you how it went for me.

Just a few things before I close out here.

I do want to remind you that you can reach out to me timothyreateartpodcast.com if you want to be in these conversations.

Definitely shoot me a line.

Let me know.

In the show notes I have a list of all the topics I will be covering and you know, if we've already covered it, that's okay because.

Because we need your perspective on these topics.

So definitely reach out to me.

Speaking about reaching out, I do want to let you know I have another podcast.

It's called Find a Podcast about.

You can find it at findapodcast About XYZ and that's where I help you find your next binge worthy podcast and outsmart the algorithm.

I can't wait for you to pop on over there and see what podcast I am reviewing.

And I started up my own business this year.

It's called TKB Podcast Studio and that's where I help my clients.

And yes, I'm using the S the multiple there because I have multiple clients now but that's where I help my clients lead to the noise through quiet professionalism and I show them how to create a podcast, just like you're listening to right now.

Check it out.

TKBpodcaststudio.com and let me see what I can do for you.

Okay, now it's up to you.

This is the end of the show.

I want you to go out there and tame that inner critic.

I think you got a lot of ideas how to do that.

Create more than you consume.

Go out there, make some art for somebody you love.

Yourself.

I'll talk to you next time.