I remember a few years back when I was CEO of the MTA, probably eight years ago,

we were looking for a way to continue to provide amazing service when it

comes to paratransit operations, but do it in a more cost efficient manner.

And I heard about a CEO in Florida who just started doing something

like that, and that was Brad Miller.

Brad is a, uh, and was CEO of the Pinellas Suncoast Transit Authority,

and he started using, this is in the Clearwater, Florida area, he started

using these TNCs, transport networking companies, to help him do things like,

you know, provide late night service, maybe rescue rides, first and last

mile solution, and again, potentially supplementing paratransit service

with customers who would opt into it.

So, uh, the, this, the idea continued to develop, you're probably aware of

this, and now cities across the country are using various, um, paratransit

supplemental service through companies like Uber and Lyft and, uh, and

even ADA service with companies like UZURV and SilverRide and others.

So, today we're going to continue to talk about this new advent of service

provision where transit agencies can utilize services such as Uber and Lyft

and others to supplement their service.

But also, there's a threat on the horizon that we'll tell you about at the end of

the show which you may want to hear about.

So, Brad Miller kicks off the show today.

He is the CEO, as mentioned, of the Pinellas Suncoast Transit Authority.

He is the regional transit authority serving the Tampa Bay region on the

west coast of Florida with more than 300 buses and 920 dedicated employees.

We also have Dr. Judy Shanley, who is the National Director of

Transportation, Mobility, and Youth at the National Office of Easterseals.

The National Easterseals Society has been one of the real leaders

in paratransit operations.

She directs several U. S. Department of Transportation projects funded

by the FTA and other groups.

We also have on here Alex Elugodin.

He is CEO of Wheeling Forward and the former Accessibility Chief of the

largest paratransit operation in America.

For In New York City, the New York City MTA.

He has spent almost a decade working as an advocate and mentor

of the disability community.

He wrote an article in Newsweek magazine that we talked about today

that really brought this issue to the forefront, this challenge to

utilizing companies like Uber and Lyft.

He'll talk about that today.

And then we brought on Jen Shepherd who leads Uber's global transit business.

She's a partner to cities and transit agencies With a mission of making transit

more accessible to those who need it most.

This is a fascinating look into how TNCs, like Uber, are used by public

transit agencies and this potential threat that's looming on the horizon

that came in through regulations coming out of Washington, of course.

And she'll talk about that, as will the other guests on the show, on

this episode of Transit Unplugged.

Well, great to have a great panel with us today, talking about what I consider

one of the latest and greatest trends in public transportation, and that

is the use of TNCs, micro mobility, to assist public transit agencies

to provide paratransit service.

And as mentioned in the opening, we've got a great panel with us.

One of them is a good friend of mine, Brad Miller.

Brad and I have been buddies for well over a decade.

And Brad, I remember back when I was CEO of MTA in Baltimore, I heard

this guy down in Florida was doing something cool with Uber because we

were all concerned about costs, right?

The cost of providing paratransit service.

Like, I can give you an example.

At Baltimore, I had an $800 million operating budget, and I spent 100

million of that on paratransit.

This was eight years ago.

And and the cost was going up at six to 8% a year, whereas my

regular costs were going up 2%.

So I was like, this is unsustainable.

There has to be a solution.

And it turned out there was, and you're the one that kind of found it for us.

Tell us about what you did and what you're doing now.

Well, thank you Paul, and thank you for having, me and the other great people

that are on this podcast on this.

On this podcast.

Um, yeah, you're right.

I mean, that was back in 2016.

PSTA started off small, but we were the first agency in the country

to have a contract with Uber.

And, um, that was, that was a great moment.

I don't think you and other people that heard about it probably had any idea

what was really going on with it, but just fast forward from then to now.

And, it has been a complete game changer, in my opinion, for

mobility in my community, down here in St. Petersburg, Florida.

The, of course, we started off with a first mile, last mile, kind of, program

where people can get a discounted Uber ride to and from a bus stop.

We extended that to late night services.

You know, after the buses stop running, people maybe get to a job on the

bus, but then they need to get home.

A low income person, we have a program for that.

Where they can catch a discounted Uber or Lyft ride.

And then finally we received a federal, one of the first

federal transit administration sandbox grants back in 2017.

We were part of the first group to test whether TNCs could be

effective for paratransit use.

And so we launched that and oh my gosh that has just been such a huge...

I think a very, very positive thing for people with disabilities in our,

in our county, the mobility of being able to get a ride like, like you and

I can, Paul, on a moment's notice.

We, we of course operate our traditional paratransit, we provide our regular

paratransit options, and then we provide what we call, down here, Mobility On

Demand, essentially that you can get a real time ride, when you need it.

And so people might take, schedule a paratransit ride to the doctor,

but, you know, no one knows when their doctor is going to actually see

them because you might wait forever.

So, they'll, I'll just call you when I'm done.

And then, then they get a ride home.

Or, hey, I don't, I don't need paratransit just for medical appointments.

I can go to the movies.

I can go to Applebee's and go to lunch with my daughter.

Or, I can just be a normal person.

I've had many people in the transit industry.

Say, Brad, what you guys are doing down there is, people in the disability

community are saying you're actually treating us like everybody else.

Giving us the mobility that everybody else already has and it's really been

gratifying to me in my career to just see the benefit that this has provided.

Now, we're on this podcast today because there is a threat to that,

to that great mobility that we are, partnering with our TNCs with.

The federal government, issued a, a proposed change to the rules, governing,

the use of TNCs by transit agencies at the very end of the Biden administration

and on December 30th is when it was published in the Federal Register.

And so now, we're We're coming into this kind of, question period, with

the new Administration coming in, are they going to enact these rules?

there is a, public comment period going on.

Essentially what would happen is the federal government would prohibit,

PSTA, my agency, or any transit agency in the country from contracting,

essentially contracting with a TNC.

And that would, that would force me and hundreds of other cities to cancel

our, these great mobility programs.

And so that's why we're, we're trying to get the word out about this and

get, get a good reaction from people.

That's something, Brad.

Well, let's jump over to you, Judy.

I've always, admired the National Easterseals Society.

You all have been really, leaders in this industry.

I remember back when I started, like, in the late 1980s in this industry, running

a small bus system here in the county.

We were always getting our training programs from the National Easterseals

Society about how to train our drivers, et cetera, to be, you know,

to help people with disabilities.

And now you're the, you're the National Director of Transportation

and Mobility and Youth, there at the National Office of Easterseals.

Tell us about, you know, what you're all's role is in this whole

issue and where you're at on it.

Sure, thank you and thank you for having me.

I feel very privileged to be part of this panel.

Easterseals has been a leader in this space for over a hundred years.

We were actually at the table when the provisions in the Americans

with Disabilities Act came to be around transportation opportunities

and paratransit services for individuals with disabilities.

And I think, the innovations that we've seen in the transportation

sector, and particularly with paratransit have been phenomenal.

The use of transportation network companies and other modes to to complement

existing services has been amazing and essentially transportation and paratransit

options and the innovation with TNCs has created opportunities for people.

The Americans with Disabilities Act suggests that or requires mandates that

the paratransit service be comparable to a fixed route service, but often it's

not comparable to fixed route service.

And it doesn't give riders, it doesn't give people with disabilities who

we want to be included in society.

We want people to access jobs and education and health care.

It doesn't give them the same opportunity as Brad said, as you and me.

And so I think thinking innovatively and creatively about the ways that people

with disabilities can access services and community settings is really critical.

And paratransit has been important to that effort.

And now the whole innovation in terms of paratransit has been important.

And, you know, what's going on in terms of the, the, the, changing,

legislation could potentially compromise the ability of people to be integrated

and included in their communities.

So, yeah, Easterseals is excited to be part of this conversation.

So thanks.

Thank you, Judy.

That's great.

And Alex, you actually just wrote an article in Newsweek magazine dude.

Big time, uh, that I, that I happened to read yesterday, uh,

which really framed this issue well.

Tell us a little bit about your background, what got you, you

know, interested in this issue.

Obviously, you've got a personal, connection to it because you use the

services and, and you're an attorney and so you've been involved in a lot of this.

Talk to us about you, the group you formed, and what your

thoughts are on this whole topic.

Absolutely.

Thanks so much.

I mean, I've got a little bit of, uh, career background in this.

I mean, I was originally the accessibility program manager leading, accessibility

initiatives at the New York City Taxi Limousine Commission back around 2015.

And at that time, we were working with Uber, to create, the wheelchair accessible

service model, for their services generally, not just paratransit in New

York City, and work a lot on kind of taxi and integration issues for accessibility.

Later on, I served as the Head of accessibility, Accessibility

Chief at MTA New York City Transit.

And, you know, one thing that, I mean, I always see myself a little bit as a

disability crusader in terms of policies and causes, related to paratransit, but

even taking TNCs aside for half a second.

One thing that we did at my time at the MTA was.

The service, when you think about paratransit back in the 90s, it's the

little mini buses driving around counties and cities and providing that service.

And that service was traditionally, that's how it started.

And you know, probably fits better under an FTA type of model.

There are mini buses, you know, mini versions of true city buses.

And traditionally, even at New York City MTA, the largest paratransit provider

in the country, 50 to 70 to 80 percent of trips back in the teens, we're

being fulfilled by those, minibuses.

You know, during my time, something that I started was like, look, we have such

an, capacity and increase over, whether it's yellow taxis, TNCs, other kinds

of vehicles, why are we not using them?

They're more nimble.

They don't have to go on a manifest route that, you know, somebody's five

minutes late, the next person's two hours late, you know, all this kind of stuff.

And by the time I actually left the MTA, the paratransit service as it

existed, you know, was doing about 70 percent of trips via taxi or other types

of services that weren't minibuses.

So this is the beginning of the innovation, you know, and then it kind

of follows through to the next steps and you start thinking about TNCs and Uber.

I mean, Uber is doing in their general service, standard service,

billions of trips, not millions, billions of trips a year.

completely have modernized this, everybody knows this, and slowly there

has been a nice ongoing, integration into transit services, both public transit

and microtransit, paratransit, you know, agencies are getting comfortable

with Uber, getting, you know, it takes the government and transit

regulators a little bit more time.

There's a little bit of a This is how we've always done it, that

always gets stuck in an agency, but we've seen tremendous growth.

It's not, not just the dynamic routing and the capacity where there

are Uber drivers everywhere, right?

So you don't have to send a driver from one part of New York City to another,

but the flexibility, the routing, you know, the fact that you don't

have to do it 24 hours in advance.

All things that are completely life changing, all things that are peers

in the non disabled, you know, those without disabilities have access to, and

this is what's been kind of going on.

And, you know, you come to a point in a regulatory situation here where

the FTA rules, as they've always been imagined, were always more about true

buses, true trains, and, you know, things like that, and, it needs to change.

It's antiquated.

We're no longer living in that.

Everybody knows that the best way, yes, if there's a fixed route service

and it's great and it's accessible, that there are capacity reasons.

There's especially in New York City.

I mean, there are 500 subway stations in New York City.

So we get it.

But even New York City sometimes, You need a different type of model

to kind of, get you the rest of the way or help you, especially when you

have an inaccessible transit system.

And, you know, we've come to an impasse where the, where the regulator is

ultimately, doubling down a little bit on times, times of the past and something

that doesn't work where we really need, innovative thinking to allow companies

like Uber to transform paratransit.

It's an equity issue to really bring.

The ADA says the word comparable, the things that have been going

on in paratransit for 30 years have not delivered comparable.

And this is what's next, and it's good for business, it's good for

people, because people will be working, there'll be economy, there'll

be taxes, there'll be more trips.

It's good for the community, it's good for transit agencies, it's a win win.

We just need our regulators to kind of get on board.

So, what exactly is the regulation?

What is being proposed?

So since 2001, paratransit services or all, as Alex mentioned, all

transit drivers since the 1990s have required to be part of a random drug

testing pool, to be bus drivers, train drivers, ferry drivers, whatever,

have been Everybody knows this.

I mean, I know, Paul, you certainly know this from your time.

drug testing is part of our business, out of our traditional business.

All my bus drivers at my agency are drug tested.

In 2001, the FTA, issued a, a, rule that said, well, a lot of transit systems

are using taxis back then, for, to complement their paratransit, to add,

uh, at times and things like that.

It became unworkable to, have taxi companies be drug tested, so they issued

a, what they call a, the taxi exemption.

If the rider, not the transit system, if the rider chose the taxi cab company back

then that they would ride in, FTA said that those taxi companies were exempt

from the drug and alcohol policy rules.

So if there, if there was a rider choice, transit agencies would give

a choice to the customers of a couple of different cab companies to get

a ride from, that they, those cab companies did not need to be, exempt.

Then Uber and Lyft weren't even created back in 2001, they didn't exist, right?

When all these rules that are now being followed, as Alex was

saying, they're just very outdated, because Uber didn't even exist.

Ten years ago, Uber about, Uber was created, and FTA shortly came

out with a, A statement that said, okay, the taxi exemption from

2001 applied to Uber and Lyft.

they would just treat it the same.

As long as there's a choice, it's the rider's choice, not, not Brad's

choice, not the agency's choice, but the rider's choice, they can be exempt.

Well December 30th, 2024.

That, that whole, that whole, you know, system was eliminated, is

proposed to be eliminated by the FTA.

So what are they saying?

They're saying now that taxi drivers and Uber have to be drug tested to be

able to be used by a transit agency?

Yes, therefore, the way they've done that is they've said, transit agencies are

prohibited from contracting with Uber, Lyft, taxi, any, any, any service provider

that does not have, drug tested drivers.

And that obviously would be a huge change to what, what has happened.

And as a transit agency, you know, I, I want to, I know this is a transit podcast,

so, I wanted to say for, to my peers and colleagues, I, I try to follow the rules.

I, I, I try to, be a good, manager and follow the FTA.

I love FTA.

I love them 28 million dollars for buses and things like that, you

know, so I, I get it that they are, they, they have the law passed by

Congress, to drug test transit drivers.

I understand where they're, they're kind of in a pickle here, but, we,

we have tried to build our programs all up, and I know transit systems

across the country have done the same thing, following these rules, and

then just to kind of change the game.

Immediately, is, is a real problem.

Can I, can I add something to what Brad said?

I mean, I just want to clarify, I know like somebody may be listening

and they hear Oh, get rid of drug and alcohol testing, like what,

oh, that, why would we do that?

That sounds bad.

So, I'm just going to get a little in the weeds here because explaining

this issue is a little tough, but the FTA and federal rules have a random

drug and alcohol testing standard.

This means that if you're part of a program like this, you can get,

you know, your pager, you can get a text message on your phone, you

gotta go get drug tested right now.

You know, there's all kinds of other.

You know, very significant aspects and burdens to being part of that program.

That's what airline pilots do, Amtrak engineers, you

know, full time bus drivers.

These are full time transit operators, you know, carrying transit of, you

know, 10, 20, 30, hundreds of people.

And there's all kinds of documentation and all kinds of requirements.

Look, when you talk about Uber and TNCs, it's a completely different world.

It's the gig transportation economy, you know, these drivers doing a couple,

I'm sure they're averaging less than five trips a week, you know, I don't

even know what the numbers are, but it's some small number, you know, and

it, and it, and it's probably not that they don't want to do it, it's just,

to sign up for that, there's a cost, there's an expense, they have other

jobs, What are they going to tell their other boss that if you got to leave, you

know, it just doesn't make any sense.

So this isn't just pre employment that FTA is requiring, this is like the

whole, the full enchilada or whatever they say, how you got to do all the

random and dude, that's interesting.

What do you think of that, Judy?

What's your thoughts on all this from the National Easterseals?

I think it's, it impacts upon the availability of rides for

me, for the individuals with disabilities that we serve, and It's

missing opportunities for people.

We often hear of, the paratransit argument about, it's so costly.

It's so costly.

And a lot of entities talk about these innovations as a cost effective benefit,

but I think it's more than cost.

The community would be missing out on a viable pool of people as employees.

health care agencies wouldn't be able to.

Provide health care services because people couldn't get there and therefore

people would be in the community and, and not be able to work and

participate in society like we all do.

So, I think the community costs of this, the community benefit of not having

people because they can't get to where they need to go is a really critical

piece and it, it's a missed, I have.

No choice.

If I have less choice in the transportation modes that I

choose, that's going to limit me in being part of a community.

And that's what I'm concerned about and feel that is one of the biggest impacts

about this, this regulatory change.

So, we do have with us, Jen Shepard.

Jen is, Head of Uber's Global Transit business.

So, you're the right person to be talking to here, Jen.

Thanks for joining us on the show today.

Absolutely.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah.

So, alright.

You've heard the issue here.

what's going to be Uber's response?

Let's say the, the new Administration, the Trump Administration, says, yes,

we're going to agree with what the Biden administration said, you know,

on the last day of the year, last year, we're going to require all these Uber

and taxi drivers to get drug tested.

What are you guys going to do?

Yes, well, first off, I hope that's not the case.

I very much agree with the panelists we have here.

So just laying some foundations here.

Uber, as Alex mentioned, is a very large platform.

We do billions of trips.

In 2023, it was like 9 billion trips globally.

We're highly regulated, built with safety in mind to provide access to

reliable mobility service in our markets.

Second, we're not a dedicated transit operator, as I think

everyone has been talking about.

We are different than the folks that drive the dedicated buses and so forth.

we fill in for the mobility managers like Brad and Brad's

team where they need it most.

So it could be transit deserts, it could be paratransit same day.

We're not dedicated here and frankly inside Uber, our transit

business is quite small to us.

We do this because we think it's the right thing to do and we think it's the

right thing to do for our communities.

Third, I'll say the product we use for transit is the same product

you and me would use as consumers.

So you, Paul, if you order a ride, you get the exact same product as what we use

for these transit programs in many cases.

The driver never even knows that they're riding as part of a transit program.

They don't know.

Oh, is that right?

I didn't know that.

Yes, they don't know who's paying for the trip.

and, and we just, we provide the same level of service to these

opt in programs where the riders really want that level of service.

So they're getting the exact same service as anyone else.

That's correct.

That's correct.

So it is commensurate, kind of the spirit of the law, right?

Or the word of the law.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

And we don't force these programs on anyone in like Brad's program.

It's all voluntary opt in.

and, and so we believe we're offering the service for the folks who really want it.

We've, we've looked at our transit data, our program data, and And what

we found is that it's true what Alex mentioned drivers on our program only

incidentally complete these transit trips.

And so what, what do I mean by that incidental?

I mean that, in one large city that we've looked at in the last 60 days,

Over 90 percent of drivers who drove for that transit program drove one

or two trips in the last 60 days.

Out of probably hundreds of trips that they did in those 60 days,

they literally drove only one or two trips as part of the transit program.

They don't know who's paying for it.

It's the same product that the consumer would get, and so it doesn't make

practical sense to really ask these drivers to do testing over and above

what is already required for them to do to be able to operate, you know, their

business as part of our markets today.

and then, and lastly, to answer your question, So if this policy is

formalized as proposed, unfortunately, we will likely ramp down many of our

transit programs in collaboration with the agencies, of course.

It'll be very sad for us.

Local communities will likely lose access to the benefits that we get.

That's something.

Well, can I ask you a tough follow up question?

Yeah.

All right.

So, I mean, let me, let me put on the, uh, You know, the other hat, right?

So, isn't this about safety?

You know, don't, why is drug and alcohol testing not a good thing, Jen?

Yeah.

So, I want to say, so safety is very, very important to Uber.

So, it, Stand For Safety is actually one of our core Uber company values.

and we do a lot to ensure safety on the platform.

So, technology, policy enforcement, customer support, they all help to

create safer environments for our users.

Our drivers must undergo driving and criminal background screening,

have proper documentation, agree to our community guidelines, which do

include a zero tolerance policy for discrimination and drug and alcohol use.

We have lots of great tools that we use from a technology

perspective, real time GPS tracking.

Sharing ride status with others, emergency assistance button, real time driver

identity check, safety support team 24 7, and then the rating system as well.

We publish an online safety report available to anyone and we show,

we continue to show critical safety incidents are very rare on our platform.

In fact, our most recent, um, report had 99.

9998 percent of trips concluded without any critical safety incident.

99. 9 percent without any safety incidents at all.

That might be better than most transit agencies, to be honest with you,

that's a pretty good number there.

well, we, we are, yes, we, we disclose it publicly, and then from an operational

perspective I mentioned before, but our transit programs are always opt in.

So if a customer is not comfortable with the level of service we provide, the

agency provides alternatives for them.

so creating these compliance burdens, which we would clarify as the FTA's

proposed policy update, does likely, point to Uber ending our transit partnership.

So, in my mind, that's not a good thing.

lastly, I will say, I was very curious last night, poking around the federal

register, and I noticed in 2018, there was a federal rule that allowed TNCs

to be used for federal work travel.

So for employees of the federal government to use TNCs and get reimbursed for it.

And so my question then is, if TNCs are good enough for federal employees

to use for their work travel, why are they not good enough for the folks

in our community who need it most as part of these transit programs?

Thanks, Jen.

That's, that's, very interesting.

And that last piece you brought up is also interesting.

So let me just go back to you, Brad, on the transit side, because this

is a transit podcast, generally.

What's it, so Jen said, if they, if this rule goes through,

we're, we're ramping down.

What's that going to mean to you and your customers?

It's going to have a major impact, to a lot of thousands of people in my county.

I'm personally, you know, I'm a transit CEO, so what I'm most worried

about is like all those fine, uh, people are going to show up in my

boardroom at my podium and yell at me.

Yeah.

So, uh, but, um, no, I mean, I, Jen, Jen has been, a great, And she's a great

leader of this and helping us out with all these programs and she said it right.

It's going to be a major reduction in mobility for thousands of people in my

county that are very, very loving it.

You know, we always give all of our customers an option.

We have our traditional paratransit, and our services, available to them.

And over the last two years, the, you can just see the transition.

folks that are given the option, are given an option of a real time ride

that comes in like five minutes rather than a pre scheduled day before thing.

It's just not, it's just a totally different product.

And it, when they see it, they choose it.

Now, two thirds of all of our paratransit rides are on TNCs, Uber and Lyft.

Wow.

Yeah.

And one third are pre scheduled rides on traditional paratransit.

It's a complete game changer.

It'll be a, it'll really be a major impact.

Now, I get it.

It, safety is part of my job description and all of our, uh, all

transit systems, uh, requirements.

We have to ensure safety of all of our customers.

We have, we have tons of FTA rules and regulations related to making

sure we provide safe rides for all.

So we are carefully tracking, ever since we started contracting with Uber and

Lyft, to about how their safety record compares to our traditional forms.

And just as Jen said, at least in our county, the, the accident rates of our

mobility on demand, our TNC programs versus traditional paratransit, drug

tested drivers is the same or better.

The accident, the safety record of our mobility services, as I feel

comfortable, is just as safe or better, even though they are not drug tested.

All right, Alex, you're the lawyer.

What's next?

Well, let me, uh, actually, I want to throw in one comment before I do that.

I want to add some credence here to, uh, what Jen said.

You know, Uber's not paying me to say this.

For many of you that know me, when I was a regulator, when I worked as a

regulator at the TLC, I worked for some pretty harsh, I don't want to say harsh,

you should have been doing it anyway, but some pretty strict rules on Uber.

and even at the, at the TLC, but, sorry, MTA.

Look, the truth is, I just want to address the elephant in the room that,

oh, Uber can do this, they just don't want to be regulated or whatever.

It's not, if Uber stood up and created a random drug and alcohol testing program,

which I'm sure they could do, they're a big company, they're gonna create the

bridge or an empty, or an empty warehouse.

The drivers aren't gonna do it.

Uber can't force them to do it.

It's not that, Uber doesn't want to.

It's, why would a driver sign up and do this?

If they don't get a paratransit trip or a microtransit trip,

they're going to get another trip.

Uber's got enough trips to go around, but it's, it's a matter of, how do you,

how do you get these drivers to do it?

So, just want to kind of clear that out there.

It's just a matter of how the world has changed and transportation has changed.

No one's trying to be a bad, a bad person here.

Everybody just needs to innovate and get with what's new.

And what's new is what's next.

So this rule is currently in the Federal Registrar.

The docket number is FTA-2024-0020.

We wanna encourage everyone right now, it's in a comment period.

We are hopeful that, you know, maybe the current government does something

about it, before it gets to the end of its comment period, which

I believe is around February 13th.

But we want people with disabilities, those who enjoy

TNC as a service to get on there.

Submit a comment.

This is not the direction we should be going.

How TNCs and transit have revolutionized your life.

we, we need people to come out against this.

It's also an opportunity to talk to your local transit

operators and elected officials.

You know, this is a, this is a moment in the disability community.

When you, when you think about the integral part, transportation

plays, people need to say, we want what everyone else has.

We want the same benefits and types of service that people

with, disabilities have.

And this is a way to get there.

Your elected officials at every level need to know about it, your transit

operators, this is, it's a little bit of a complicated issue, I say that,

but it behooves us as the disability community, you know, myself as a

quadriplegic, to get, to know the issues and to get our voice out there.

Judy, coming from the National Easterseals Society, to me, one of

the most respected organizations in the country on this whole issue, what,

let's let you have the last word.

Any final thoughts?

About spontaneity.

You know, it's been said, but to summarize, it's all about

me having a choice where I want to go, when I want to go.

And, without the varying options that these innovations create,

those inhibit my spontaneity.

So, be at the table, talk with the local people, as Alex said, your

planning organization, the MPOs, your local legislators about what

this potentially could mean and have a larger discussion about the

transportation options in your community.

So, thanks.

Thank you.

Thank you, Judy, Jen, Alex, and Brad for, bringing this issue.

We at Transit Unplugged like to be on top of the, the cutting edge issues

that are impacting public transit and there couldn't be more cutting edge

than this since the thing is going to kick in in a couple of weeks.

So, we, we appreciate newsjacking this article for this This is your

article, Alex, from Newsweek and, and this information out to the industry,

the public transit industry around the U.S. And I think it's important

for people around the world to hear it, too, and to hear what's going

on here in the U.S. with this issue.

Thank you again for everybody for being our guests, kind of on a last

notice here, last minute notice.

We appreciate it.

And best wishes to you all on this issue.

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Transit Unplugged with our

special guests, Dr. Judy L. Shanley, Alex Elegudin Jen Shepherd and Brad Miller.

We thank them for coming on the show at the last minute to talk about this

really important issue facing transit agencies across the United States.

Now, coming up next week, we have our special episode featuring

women in Australia leading the way in public transport.

We have Lauren Streifer Jamie-Lee Owen, Katie Cooper, and Michelle Batsas

joining Paul and special co host Kelly Chapman for a discussion about everything

going on in Australia with transit.

And, the initiatives that Michelle especially has done to encourage

more women to become part of the public transit industry.

Transit Unplugged is brought to you by Modaxo.

At Modaxo, we're passionate about moving the world's people.

And at Transit Unplugged, we're passionate about telling those stories.

So until next week, ride safe and ride happy.