Good evening and welcome to Crowd Church. It's great to be here tonight. I am
joined by Dave Connolly.
Hi, Johan, how are you doing?
Good. Have you had a good week?
I have a lovely week, really enjoying the weather and, um, yeah, just plenty of
time to do whatever it is I needed to do.
Yeah, it's been nice to have a week of sunshine, although it seems like it's
about to end. Oh no, I know, I know, the weather's looking a bit— and we always
talk about the weather here, it's not a weather forecast. Um, but yeah, it is
about to take a turn for the worst, I believe. But you know, for anyone who's
outside of the northwest of England, um, you know, it's quite rare to get a
really hot week, isn't it? So we get excited about these things. Enjoy it. Yeah,
exactly. Well, we could chit-chat about the weather in our weeks, and you know,
we were just talking about North Wales. Actually, interesting fact for everyone,
that brings me into introducing our Speaker tonight, Aidan, a second, is that
I've been in North Wales for the weekend, um, I've been on holiday for a few
days with my family, and, um, we actually met in real life earlier today, Aidan
and I and his wife Sonia and my family. And yeah, it was the first time we'd met
in person rather than just over Crowd Church. So it's like, wow, Crowd Church
friends becoming in real life friends.
So yeah, really seeing each other.
Yeah, so that this is, this is like, yeah It's exciting. So I'm going to pass
over to Ade now, and yeah, my officially in real life friend now, but he's doing
the talk for us tonight. And so yeah, Ade, I'll pass over to you. I think we
don't have sound. We'll just give that a second. Ah, we have him. Okay, passing
over to you again, Ade.
Got stuck in the green room again. That's local insiders, the techies in the
background. So yes, it was wonderful to meet you in person. And yeah, we're
slowly building up a list of people we're meeting who come from Liverpool and
spend some time in North Wales, where let's face it, it is just beautiful here.
Yeah.
We're so lucky to be here. But tonight we're not going to talk about North
Wales. Well, let's leave that for conversation straight. Tonight we are going to
talk about success. Now, when I started preparing this, the working title I had
was The Price of Success, but by the time I got to the end of it, it was really
The Purpose of Success. And so let me just take a moment to think about the
typical definition, the dictionary definition of success. We get phrases like
accomplishment of goals, attainment of wealth, prosperity, favorable outcome of
ventures. Now, from a societal point of view and culturally, we tend to
associate success either directly or indirectly with wealth. Yeah, typically the
rich and the famous. And when it comes to wealth, the UK bank, the HSBC, did a
survey in 2024 to just get a feel for what do people think wealthy was? And the
number they came up with was £213,000 a year for an income. Now, this is 5.5
times our national average. If you look at stats, you find 4% of this country
earn over £100,000, 1% over £207,000. So we're getting into the fraction of a
percentage is what we design. We, um, have categorized wealthy as what we would
see success in wealth as. Now, success comes at a price. If you think about it
from a career point of view or a sporting point of view or pretty much any
venture, there's higher stress. The higher you climb, the higher the stress, the
greater the expectations, the more time you're taken away from family and
friends. And this in itself almost leads to increased isolation and in some
cases burnout. And we think, okay, well, people who are really, really wealthy
and successful, they don't worry about this, you know, these financial stresses
that the rest of us do. Well, actually, studies have shown that the really
wealthy actually really worry about losing their wealth. They worry about losing
their standing, their perception. They also worry about their friends really
just after them for their money and not for who they are. So, excuse me, we are
going to have a look at a particularly successful individual in the Book of
Luke, a guy called Zacchaeus, who was a tax collector. Now, it's quite a short
passage. It's Luke 19:1-10. So if I can stop coughing, I am going to read this.
Well, actually, apologies, I'm going to read this anyway. So starting at verse
1: Jesus entered Jericho and made his way through the town. There was a man
there named Zacchaeus. He was the chief tax collector in the region, and he had
become very rich. He tried to get a look at Jesus, but he was too short to see
over the crowd, so he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore fig tree beside the the
road, for Jesus was going to pass that way. When Jesus came by, he looked up at
Zacchaeus and called him by name. "Zacchaeus," he said, "come down. I must be a
guest in your home today." Zacchaeus quickly climbed down and took Jesus to his
house in great excitement and joy. But the people were displeased. "He has gone
to be the guest of a notorious sinner," they grumbled. Meanwhile, Zacchaeus
stood before the Lord and said to him, "I will give half my wealth to the poor,
Lord, and if I've cheated people on their taxes, I will give them back 4 times
as much." Jesus responded, "Salvation has come to this home today, for this man
has shown himself to be a true son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek
and save those who are lost." So just to set the scene here, Jericho was a very
desirable place to live. It was a prime toll center for the region. It was known
as the city of palm trees. It was incredibly rich. It's also a very powerful and
strategic city. It was a major exporter of balsa wood. There were abundant
springs. There were fertile lands. This was an agricultural hub and trade
center. This was not a backwater town. This was the place to be.
Be.
And being at the top of his game as a tax collector here rather than some
backwater town, that made him a big fish in a big sea. Now, Zacchaeus, we don't
know too much from that passage, but we do know that first of all, his name
means pure. He is a man of small stature, and he is a chief tax collector. Now,
this would have presented him a number of problems with his fellow Jews. For a
start, he was a Jew working for Romans, so he was working for the oppressor. He
would have been considered an outcast. In fact, he would have been considered
ritually unclean. His tithes would not have been accepted in the temple. In
fact, he wasn't allowed to partake in any of their rituals. And on top of that,
he would have also been disdained for overtaxing people, because the Roman
system of taxes were the Roman wanted— Romans wanted a certain amount of tax,
and this would have been based on initially the land you own, the business you
conducted, the number of people in your family. And they had a number, no one
else knew what it was, but the tax collectors were allowed to add whatever they
wanted on top of that, so, you know, to keep them going. And they notoriously
added a lot of money onto that. They extorted the people. Now, they had, you
know, Roman soldiers there to enforce these taxes, so the people really had no
choice but to pay and be extorted. So he'd been hated for that as well. So he's
most— on one hand, he's one of the most prominent men in Jericho. Now, we assume
that he's really good at his job because he's a chief tax collector, not just a
tax collector. We can also assume the guy is middle-aged or older because it
would have taken him time to get here. But this is a guy who who is— we'll say
he's on par with today's millionaire. He's someone who's made it. He's rich in
wealth, however he is poor in status, and, uh, he did not belong. He was— he
would have been incredibly lonely. So he has this amazing encounter with Jesus.
So for a start, despite his wealth, something drives him to go out there and see
Jesus as he's passing through. So, assuming he's got it all, he doesn't really,
and he also wasn't going to be held back by the crowd or being small in stature.
So he climbs a tree, and we, we assume that was probably the most efficient
course of action. He could have tried to push through the crowd, but let's face
it, he was a really unpopular guy and he's physically very small. By the time he
got to the front, Jesus would probably have passed by. He's rich, he could have
tried to bribe, but again, that probably would have taken too long. So this guy,
who's likely middle-aged or older, and he's wearing a robe, he does a desk job
for a living, he climbs a tree. So, you know, that's something we can assume he
does not do very often, but, you know, he was that driven to go and get a
glimpse of Jesus, he climbed a tree. Now we don't know if he was really thinking
through and aware of the type of tree he was climbing, but in Jewish culture,
sycamore fig tree is known as the sin-spreading tree due to its dense canopy.
The idea is any sin committed underneath it actually can pass to all people on
the tree. Now, if you have a whole row of these things and they're all
overlapping, it can pass to anyone who's under any of these trees. In fact, they
were always about keeping these things within your boundary. Either way, he saw
he had a problem, he saw a solution, and he acted straight away. Again, these
are one of the reasons probably why he was good at his job. You know, being a
motivated problem solver is an important ingredient in a successful career. And
then comes the encounter. Jesus walks by and he instantly calls, and right away,
Zakias answers. He doesn't hang around. He doesn't get swayed by the comments of
the crowd. And ultimately, he, you know, he is open to hearing the harsh truth
and reality that he is a sinner. But he doesn't waste time here. He jumps again,
not wasting time, being time efficient, another important trait of being a
successful person. And then after having spent this one short time period with
Jesus, he gives away half his possessions. Now, Jesus did not ask him to do
that. He just, off his own bat, recognized he was a sinner, recognized he needed
to make changes, and said, look, I'm giving away half my possessions, and anyone
I've cheated, I will repay them back fourfold. Now, interestingly, he also, as
far as we know from this, he also remained in his successful job. He wasn't
asked to leave it, and he didn't feel convicted to leave it. So he's still a Jew
working for the Romans. As I said, Jesus did not tell him to leave it, but you
know, we obviously would assume going forward that he would have taxed people
fairly, and given his position in that system, you know, maybe he had the
opportunity to change the system for more people. But the crucial point here is
his success now benefits people other than himself. They benefit the community,
for the people who he'd given half his possessions to, for the people who he had
repaid, for the people who going forward he would have taxed at a more
reasonable rate, and possibly for any positive changes he brought to that system
in Jericho. So honest success, is not unbiblical. I mean by that, by honest,
fair work for a fair reward. And Jesus talks about this in Matthew 25, the
parable of the talents, where a master gives 5 talents to one worker, 2 talents
to another, and 1 to a third worker. The master then goes away for a period of
time and comes back, and the gentleman who had 5 has invested, worked hard, and
made another 5. And the same with the one who had 2, he then made another 2. And
they were rewarded, you know, well done, good and faithful servant. Now the guy
who's given one chose to do nothing with it. He didn't even put it in the bank
for interest, and he's cast into darkness, and his talent is given to the one
who did well with five. So we can see from this that hard work resulting in
success is rewarded, not punished. We can also see from this that some of us
will be given more opportunities than others for success. And it doesn't stop
here. Paul, in his letter to the Ephesians, says in 4:28, "Let the thief no
longer steal, but rather let him labor doing honest work with his own hands so
that he may have something to share with anyone in need." So the results of the
work aren't just for the worker, they are to be shared where it is needed. And
this practice goes all the way back to Leviticus in chapter 9, verses 9 to 10:
When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field right up
to its edge, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. And you
shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather fallen grapes of
your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner. I am the
Lord your God. So what we can see here is the honest success is a biblical
principle, hard work being rewarded. It is not just for us, we are the steward
of its benefits and we are to use it to help others who need help. And some of
us will have more opportunities for success than others. It really means they
will have more opportunities to bless and support others. So taking these ideas
and looking inward, are we searching with vigor like Zacchaeus was? And Jesus
isn't walking down the main street of our respective towns and villages here is:
are we reading Scripture daily? Are we praying daily? Are we meeting with other
believers? Are we overcoming obstacles to these things, or are we just making
excuses? And then, are we answering immediately? And that can be, you know,
prompting from the Holy Spirit, you know, are we listening for that? But also
Biblical instruction— there are plenty of very simple guidelines that we are
told to do. Are we answering those? 1 John 3:17: If anyone has material
possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how
can the love of God be in that person? And finally, are we acting with love? Are
we sharing that success where we have it, the benefits of that success? And that
doesn't actually have to be only financial, it can be some of the skills that we
have built up as well. Are we using those to serve those in our church, in our
community around us? Our community here is really central. We are not meant to
be alone. We are not meant to be successful alone. Hebrews 10:25, not neglecting
to meet together, as is the habit of some. But encouraging one another. And
that's our role in this. We are here to encourage one another as we, as we wait
on God, as we study his word. And that is where I would like to bring this to a
close tonight. Thank you.
Great, thanks so much, Ade. That is, um, Just so much in there. Really great.
Um, what did you think, Dave? Any immediate things that jump out?
Yeah, I, I just love the story. I love the delivery, uh, you know, the things
you brought out there. And, um, I think the thing that always stands out just
about— here's a guy who's got everything but no one to share it with, and he—
but he knows he's lacking something. And yet, um, you know, he climbs the tree
almost still hidden, but Jesus is coming along. He's going somewhere, and Jesus
stops and calls him by name. And I just think there's something wonderful
whenever Jesus stops and there's a beginning of a conversation. He calls him by
name. Just amazing.
Because there's something about Jesus's presence, isn't there? And when he, when
he encounters Zacchaeus, that it actually changed— like, his response is so
counterculture. Like, he completely does a 360— well, a 180, not 360, that would
be the same direction. Um, a 180. Maths was never my strong point. Um, he does
complete 180 though, doesn't he? Like, in terms of where he was on money and
wealth and success. And actually, when he comes into the presence of Jesus, he's
like— it's not that Jesus tells him, but he's instantly— I find it really
interesting that he's instantly convicted.
Yeah.
And he feels it necessary to give half his money away and to repay all those
that he'd swindled, and to change his ways and to be more generous and honest
with money. To use his wealth to sort of benefit many, not just himself. And I,
I think, isn't that interesting, that, that it's just that sheer encounter of
being in Jesus's presence? Jesus hadn't told him to do that. No one's said, oh,
you're really bad, you're, you're living like this. It's just the very coming
face to face with who Jesus is changes him. I find that incredible.
We see it repeatedly, don't we, in all these stories that we get in the gospels,
you know. Um, but it's the counterculture Jesus, isn't it? Oh, Jesus the
revolutionary, eh? And, um, you know, um, he— everybody hates Zacchaeus. They
despise him, you know, even though he's got everything. They just despise him.
And yet Jesus, he's the one that Jesus wants to talk to. And he says to him,
Again, I find it's really moving. Jesus says to him, come down because I'm
coming to your house. That's the last place anybody wants to go to. Yeah, to
that level of association, you know. And, and then, you know, we see what
happens. I, I'm so thankful that we don't know what the conversation was between
Jesus and Zacchaeus. Otherwise, men being men, or mankind being mankind, humans
being humans, we would have made a programme out of it, but we don't hear, but
we see the fruits of repentance, which Aidé brought out wonderfully.
Mm. Yeah, absolutely. And I loved— the other bit that I really loved about what
Aidé shared was just this whole idea that when we work and what we earn and what
we create with our hands and, you know, everything that we have, all this
success, all the money that we earn, is for sharing, and it's not just for our
own benefit, but it's for the benefit of wider community. And I love that. And
you see it so often with, like, you know, business people who are Christian,
where they, you know, not, not just Christians, but often Christians are
particularly good at it, give a lot of their money away. And actually, um, yeah,
just that real challenge that's there in the Bible quite a lot about, um,
sharing with those in need. And it's so counterculture to what we often see in
the world, right? We see these I don't want to pick on anyone, but these Elon
Musks or Kardashian-type characters that are on TV screens, you know, the big
tech bros in America. And you just think they are not benefiting everyone with
their wealth. They're benefiting, well, mainly themselves and a few people who
work for them right at the top. And we do live in a world, don't we, today where
the richer are getting richer, like, and that gap between the richest and
poorest is actually getting bigger in a lot of our societies.
Yeah.
Smaller. And, um, yeah, and I just think it's so— it is so counterculture. Jesus
is a revolutionary. What he teaches here and what he demonstrates is so
counterculture to what we see about very successful rich people today. And, you
know, it's easy to sit and criticize people, isn't it? Because I don't have that
kind of money to give away if I wanted to, you know. It's— but nonetheless, I
think it's just not what we see a lot of people build more wealth for
themselves, for their own gain, don't they?
I think giving is— it, for me, it has to come with a cost, you know. So, um, I
think, you know, the culture at the time— I think Middle Eastern culture is very
different than, than our own, and not just historically. I think even today it
was very reciprocal. So like, I have some Farsi friends And, um, you know, if
you ever invite them out around from a— come around for a meal, well, you can't
even get it in your diary until you've told them when you're going to their
house. So, you know, because it's reciprocal, it's not one-offmanship, it's we
want to participate in this, and they'll bring stuff. And I think we— I see
something lovely about a society, a culture of reciprocation and value. And, and
as you're saying, that we share what we have. and it should cost. You know, I
think, you know, if you've got— I don't know, these figures are beyond me, like,
you know, £10 million in the bank, to give somebody £10,000, it is still
significant, but it probably isn't to you. You know, um, so I think, you know,
giving is about reciprocation. But what I see in Zacchaeus is fruits of
repentance. The very thing that was an idol to him, that like was like a god,
finance stuff, you know, that he got from doing, um, from his job. That's what
he surrendered, you know. And I think we need to know what it is to surrender
those things that are idols in our lives, you know, that we count so important.
Let's share them. I bet those people were terrified when he started doing that,
you know. What's the catch? Zak, yes, you're going to tax me more next time.
Yeah, you know, it's interesting, isn't it? We've got a few comments here on the
feed that I'll just pull up as well. So we've got quite a bit of people on the
feed here. So we've got Alicia, Ellis, Rach, Sharon, Ros, Sonia, MJS Player,
it's the ID, Catherine. So we've got a number of people listening in live on the
feed. And one comment I've got is here from Alicia says, there was so much
fascinating context here in Ade's talk. I knew Zakias was was hated but didn't
realize the connection between his work and the oppression of Rome. Um, hi Ade,
Anna, Dave. What does sharing your skills and money, etc., look like in your own
lives? That's from Sharon. Oh, there's a big buzz on that.
It's gone.
Fine, it's gone. So did everyone catch that? So what does sharing your skills
and money look like in your own lives? That's a question from Sharon. Any
thoughts, guys?
What about, what about you, Ade?
The fact I'm here right now, you know, so I am an engineer and a physicist. I
often talk to people who don't know a thing about technical anything and
convince them this is a really good thing to do for the business. So actually
speaking in front of people, that's something I do quite comfortably. And so
having been a Christian for a number of years, studied the Bible for a number of
years, and more recently in Bible college, it's coming here and taking what I do
for a day job but with, you know, a theological and scriptural context rather
than a scientific context. Yeah, that's an example of skills.
Yeah, that's, that's a really good, good part of it. I, I think, yeah, I, I feel
the same. I, I feel like a large part of being generous is like, for me, it's
being generous, yeah, with our money, but also with our time and our resources.
So, you know, like me and my husband Andy, we like to like open our house, you
know, open our, yeah, just our space or our diary, our lives to people. And I
think, yeah, that can be money because sometimes people have financial needs,
but also it's giving people things to borrow when they need them, or being like,
come stay in our house the weekend we're away, or, or come and have a meal with
us, you're on your own. Or yeah, it can be really just a little practical
things. But I think you're right, Dave, it's about a generosity of heart. And
yeah, for me, that's a really important part of it. It's about being generous
with whatever we— whatever we're blessed with, in whatever way. Like, use my
car, use my time, you know. But also, you're right, Ada, it is about time as
well, like, and your skills. So, you know, doing things like this or whatever
we're good at, giving it, giving it, um, to the purposes of God and to bless
other people as well.
I think time is really important because, you know, once—
having a few sound issues tonight. Bear with us, folks, we'll keep going.
So one of the things I quite like about this passage is, and this is where we
see Jesus really being a revolutionary.
I think, you know, with time, it's the most precious thing that we have. Which
affects all the other things. But, you know, once that time is spent, it's gone.
Yeah, you, you know, you just don't get that back. And, um, and I, I think it's
wonderful to spend time with people. Some people are easier to spend time with
than others. Well, you know, I would just encourage people that when we're with
people, to give them our best, give them our concentration, put our phones away,
you know, you know, type of thing. It's horrible when you're talking with
somebody, um, and, and, and they change— they're looking at the phone. And I
know they might be waiting for a kidney transplant or something, but most of us
aren't, you know. Let's give people our undivided attention.
Yeah, that's a really good point. I've got another comment here on the feed,
which is, uh, from Alicia. She says, um, this was a refreshingly nuanced take on
what success is especially for people of faith. So it's not just about what,
what can be done with money, but how you employ your other gifts. Yeah, I think
we just covered that, but really good point. I thought as well, an interesting
point, um, that Ade made was about how, um, like, we're called to steward what
we're given, but not everybody's given the same amount. So like, some people are
given more to steward than others. And that's interesting, isn't it? Because
sometimes you can look at it from a human perspective and be like, well, why
have they been given so much money or resource or opportunity? Because they're
not actually using it as well as I might think I would do in their shoes. I'm
not saying I would, but you know, when you're like, sometimes there's that
thing, isn't it? Like, why doesn't God give just good people? Like, all of that
stuff. But Espe Zacchaeus is like a great example of, yeah, actually anyone has
that potential when they encounter Jesus. Um, but I just wondered if you had any
thoughts about that, Aidan, while you were prepping the talk, like that whole
idea of we're not all given the same, you know, in terms of stewardship.
Uh, yeah, absolutely. Um, I, uh, personally, I'm blessed enough to have been
born into a Christian family. My parents loved each other, they loved the Lord,
they stayed together. I came from a stable family. I was able to go to a
polytech and study engineering and science, live at home, commute to that, so
not have racked massive debts, and then go on to a career in science and
engineering, which is a, you know, it's a generally jobs are reliable. I could
have chosen a completely different career path and not had anything like the
number of opportunities I had today, whilst having worked equally hard at that
career path. So some of it is the blessings I was born into, some of it is the
work I've done with the opportunities I've been given, and some of it is just
the choices I've made. There's so many things there. And also, we pray that God
will open the right doors, close the wrong doors and everything. But Sonia and
I, there must be, there must be that as well.
Yeah, I think that's really helpful, and it's a really helpful perspective.
Like, yeah, it's interesting. Go on, Dave.
We're only to steward that which God has given us. I'm looking from, you know,
the God side of things. We're just accountable for that, and, you know, when
people say to me, you know, like, maybe, let's say faith, Dave, you know, will
you pray that God gives me more faith? And my normal response is a little bit
tongue-in-cheek, but it usually goes something like, 'What are you doing with
what he's given you? If you want more faith, use what you have.' And when we
talk about stewarding, whether it be gifts or resources, we just need to know
that we do it for the glory of God and at the same time generally being a
blessing to other people. But we will be— stewardship is all about being
accountable, whether it be even our families, like our kids, We, we, you know,
we steward that, you know, um, and I think we just forget sometimes that there
is a, a day of reckoning where we have, you know, stewarding. God says, what
have you done with it?
Yeah, I think that's it. That's a challenge for us all, isn't it? And I, I feel
like some— so much of this for me is about heart posture and holding things
lightly. So Yeah, whether it's your children or your time or your resources or
your, like, money in your bank account.
It's—
for me, it's like knowing that the earth is the Lord's and everything in it. And
actually, everything I own, everything I own, everything I have is, you know,
as, as Ade touched on, is from God, it's for God, it's back to God in the end.
You know, we're all given different starts and chances in life and different
opportunities, but actually God just expects us to have a good posture of
generosity and stewarding as best we're able to what he gives to us. And I
think, yeah, you know, just holding things quite lightly and not clinging to
things too tight is really helpful for me.
I'm not sure whether it's just our— the day in which we live, but it's a little
bit like, I want that. And we spend so much time looking at what we don't have
or what somebody else has that we miss what we've been entrusted with, and
because our attention is somewhere else, so we don't really do that stewarding
that well. And but I love that phrase about posturing. It is all about our heart
because, you know, God knows it. And whilst we may be able to fool ourselves at
times, we never fool God. God knows what our heart is and our heart responses to
things.
I've got a few more comments coming through on the feed. So Ellis says, one
thing I struggle with when it comes to sharing and giving is doing it because I
feel like I should rather than because I want to. I struggle to find the balance
with that. Um, yeah, I think that's— it's a really good point. I think it is
difficult, isn't it, to feel like I ought to give rather than I want— I
genuinely want to.
Yeah.
Do you have any thoughts on that, Dave?
Well, I remember just a few months ago we were sat here and we were— we were at
this very, um, this very conversation. Um, Yeah, I think for me it's always been
hold things lightly, you know. And when I'm sowing into things, I'm giving, you
know, I might give to this person, but in fact, you know, I'm actually—
it's God.
I'm doing on behalf of God. So at our local Tesco, there's, there's a, there's a
lovely guy, and I know his name, and he's really amused I know his name. And I'm
like, well, why wouldn't I? You know, I ask you it all the time. And I know what
he likes. He likes coffee and he likes a certain sandwich, etc., etc. And I will
just get him them, not because I'm anything, you know, it's not gonna bust my
bank to do that because I don't want him to even have to ask me, you know. I
want to see any and I want to be able to respond. And, um, yeah, you know, and I
just— it comes back to what you said, it's this thing of our heart. Just, you
know, our heart on giving, giving freely. You know, people, you know, ask you
for money, you know, and you might give them something, and, um, and somebody
else say, you know, you shouldn't have done that, they could go and buy drugs
with that, they could go and do such and such. And you know what, they could,
but I'm giving them, I'm just wanting to bless them, I'm giving them what
they've asked for. And, you know, we can find that in scripture as well, you
know. Um, but I just think, you know, let's give generously and freely. When we
give it, let go of it, you know. Don't— you mustn't spend it on this, but give
it and be a blessing.
Definitely. A couple more comments that have come through. So Alicia said also,
I think one point about how some are wealthy and can be afraid of reversal of,
you know, not having their money anymore, like losing their wealth, or, or
possibly, um people only caring about them for their wealth or their success or
power or whatever. I think she said that's really good, and that's very, you
know, it's a good point, and that's a very fearful way to live. And, and I think
that's true, and I think we can be fearful, can't we, whether we've got much or
little when it comes to money.
Yeah.
And actually, some of it is just about perspective, like whether you've got much
or little, trusting that God provides, and actually Everything is his. And yeah,
again, that encounter with Jesus changes your perspective because money is not
your God. God is your God.
Yeah, I mean, we're all blessed, aren't we, that, you know, we have— most of us,
and, you know, in this room, you know, we, we have generally, I think, you know,
what we need. You know, it's, it's not that there aren't things that we want.
Yeah, that we haven't got, you know, um But we generally, you know, have what we
need. And I think, but if I was to go and give somebody, you know, 20 quid, you
know, I mean, I, I would probably want to give them more than that because I
want to feel the bite. I want to feel the cost of doing that, not so I can feel
good, but so I can feel that cost. And I want them to be blessed significantly.
And what they do with it is beyond you know, beyond me. But I also want to be
dependent on God, um, you know, um, for my finances, you know. And we talk about
in the church or being full-time or, you know, living by faith. Well, you know,
I think if you work in the Ford Motor Company, you're living by faith. Whatever
we do, we need to live by faith, and it's God's blessing that we've even got
that job.
Yeah, yeah. Any more thoughts from you, Aidan? I'm aware that you're over in
North Wales, but we still want to hear from you.
Yeah, shout.
She's just not in this physical studio with us. Yeah, shout from North Wales.
Yeah, we'll talk all night, just me.
Yeah, it's just hard to get a word in between me and Dave, that's all.
I have noticed that. I think, I think one of the things to remind you about, you
know, but the difference between feeling I should do something, whereas I want
to. You got to start somewhere and you have clear guidance in the Bible to meet
together, to study the Bible, to pray, to support the helpless. And sometimes
you just have to, it's almost fake it till you make it, right? There's an
instruction here I should do. I don't feel like doing it. But do it anyway. And
I think I've gone through— it's only in the last 6 months, I think, I've come
out of a rut where I actually want to read the Bible. I've been reading it daily
anyway, but because all the stuff that we've been going through in our personal
lives, it's like, right, this time I do this. I don't feel like it, but I'm
going to do it. And it got to a point where I thought, you know what, I'm going
to do it. I think I'm going to do this even better, and I'm going to sign up to
an online Bible college. But up until that, and now, you know, it's— I've kind
of gone through that phase now where I want to, I can't wait till the next time,
I'm just kind of learning so much. But I had to go through a good 18 months.
Yeah, let's say a good 18 months of just doing it because I knew I should be
doing it, being very open in my conversation with God that I'm doing this
because I should. I'd like to want to do this, but right now I just, you know, I
just don't feel that. I just don't feel much of anything. If we do that with the
right heart and we ask God to help us through it, we will come to a place where
we do want to do these things. But very often we have to put in the work to get
ourselves there.
Yeah, it's one of the— this, it's discipline, isn't it? Which isn't really much
of a 21st century word because we all like to do what we want to do.
Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Because it's— yeah, it's like, like you say, that
fake it till you make it thing. And I love your honesty about your situation,
Aidan, the fact that sometimes it is a choice and Yeah, and the feelings sort of
come later, and sometimes they're quicker, aren't they? And I think we've all
got different examples of, yeah, how sometimes you kind of just have to make the
first step and Jesus moves towards you. But then sometimes there's situations
like Zacchaeus where Jesus literally steps towards him and he, you know, he
calls him down out of his tree. It wasn't that Zacchaeus stepped towards Jesus,
but Jesus went— he called him out, didn't he, and said 'Hey, I want to speak to
you.' Yeah. So yeah, I think it can be both ways, and, um, and it's okay. And I
think it's really honest to be like, 'I don't really feel like doing this, but
as I do it, because I know it's the right thing to do, God, would you change my
heart?' And, you know, and Aidan's example is that over time that has been his
experience. And I think I've got examples of that as well, and mine wasn't
necessarily about reading the Bible, but I, you know, I went— I've been through
seasons where I didn't really want to pray. I didn't really want to talk to God
sometimes, um, because of, you know, different difficult situations. But I think
when you kind of take a step towards God, I think he steps towards you. It's
like there's a Bible verse that's like, you know, draw near to God and he'll
draw near to you. And I, I think it is sometimes there is that two-way process.
I mean, when you read these stories, like, that they are so personal, whether it
be Zacchaeus or, um, the woman caught in adultery or the one with the issue of
blood. You know, the gospels are just full of these things where, whether Jesus
calls them by name, somewhere in that interaction they become deeply personal
and life-changing. They're heart-changing, aren't they? Um, and I think only
when our hearts are changed do our feelings get changed. That's pretty good, I
must write that down.
Uh, only when I say it again, Dave.
Only when our hearts get changed do our feelings begin to change. Yeah, you
know, and, um, and I think that would be really true, you know, for me. Um, I'm
quite a persistent person, so again, you know, just doing something until I get
that longing, because I know it's good. It's like, you know, lots of things in
life are good, aren't they? Like go in the gym, eat well, you know, you know, in
a big list, and we all know what's good. But we need the discipline to do them,
um, and to do them continually and consistently.
Yeah. And it's— I love the, um, just, just reflecting on this story. The thing
that really sticks out to me is that it's Jesus' presence that changes our
perspective. And so I think however, however you get to be in Jesus's presence,
whether that's he pursues you, you have to persistently pursue him, even when
you don't feel like it, like Aidan's example, like, that encounter with Jesus is
what changes your perspective and changes your life, really. So, I think it's
worth, you know, that persistence, that discipline, that wrestle, if it needs to
be, to get to that place.
I think sometimes we get a bit afraid of silence, you know, and with our walk
with God. We think, you know, as he got off, where he's just trying to create a
space for us to maybe just think, what is it that God is saying? What is it I am
wanting? What is it I'm wanting to communicate to him? And, um, it's just, it's
just always there, and he's always intimate with us. And when he speaks, when he
acts, you know, when he reaches out, um, You know, that was so profound what
happens to Zak. I just love it, you know. And that the very thing that was his
idol, it was broken. Because you can't break the idol in somebody's life and
then hold on to the money. I'll tell you what, you can borrow me donkey. That's
not— that doesn't cut it. He breaks the idol, which is the final, and he starts
to restore what he's taken from people.
Yeah, I think, I think it's, um, it goes back to that, um, Firstly, like, um,
it— like, um, Aid mentioned it actually during his talk. It was— I noted it
down. It was 1 John 3, where it sort of says, how can the love of God be in that
person, that person who doesn't share what they have with others and meet
people's needs? And that's really challenging, isn't it? Like, if you're not
generous, if you're not sharing what you have with others, how can the love of
God really be in you? It's like, oh wow, that's, that's tough. And yeah, I
think, wow. But it's that encounter with the love of God that enables you to do
that. That— it was, it was Jesus' love that called Zacchaeus down from the tree.
Like, he saw him, he loved him, he called him out.
Yeah.
And that, that encounter with Jesus' love enabled him to, you know, it was
having Jesus' love inside of him, wasn't it, that created that transformation?
And then out of that came transformation to other people's lives and the
community around him, people they worked with and you know, collected taxes
from. But yeah, I—
and it was natural. Yeah, wasn't it? It was like the overflow. That's the word.
Yeah, I thought I, I couldn't get it right, but it is out of the overflow. It
was the natural response of encountering the presence and the power of Jesus.
And you're like, I didn't have to think it all through. He didn't have to go
away and lay a fleece. He, you know, we don't know exactly what the time frame,
but It's not long, he's in a tree, he's out of a tree, he's walking to his
house, he's having dinner with Jesus. Yeah. You know, and I bet you those people
like were, you know, who were outside, people being people, I wonder what's
going on in there, you know. And they were waiting, you know, maybe, maybe
waiting for the pound of flesh or for Jesus to come out and say, I've sorted
them out. But it's what Zahia says that is so impacting. Um, which is amazing.
Yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah. Any more thoughts from you, Aidan?
Yeah, I think a key thing to pick up on here is it doesn't matter who you are.
Yes.
What you've done, what you think you've done. Zacchaeus, as I mentioned, he was,
you know, he was the lowest of the low in one sense culturally. So if you look
in the New Testament, there are numerous lists of sinners and tax collectors,
tax collectors and prostitutes. They're down there with you know, the lowest
dregs of society at that time. That's how low they think of them. And then, and
so this lowly, lowly guy then decided to go and climb the sin-spreading tree
where some of that probably rubbed off on him on the way up. And, you know, the
revolutionary thing happening here is he is the last person that Jesus should
have picked out. It should have been someone else, maybe a Pharisee or religious
leader or a really nice guy. Didn't. Took someone that society hated, and he
was, he was on the manky sin tree.
That's right.
That's the one. He said, I'm coming home with you. That's great.
And that is so challenging, isn't it? Like, because we, we so often want to, I
don't know, discard people, or we assume people are, or they're beyond saving,
or they're, you know, they don't deserve it. And our judgment is so often not
God's judgment, you know, like, yeah, sorry, Ade, go and carry on.
I say it's a bit like in your typical Hollywood film where a good guy goes to
prison, everyone hates him, he walks up to the biggest, baddest dude in the
whole place and picks a fight to change the entire atmosphere to suit him.
You've got to wonder, having people that— the crowd, they were watching, they
were seeing this, they see the lowest of the low on the monkey tree going for
Jesus, and then 'Cause, you know, 'cause word of mouth spreads, they're gonna
hear he's given stuff away. Some of them will have seen it. And, you know, what
we don't see here is the actual impact that must have had in Jericho. That would
have been, that would have been right around the city. This is unheard of. I
mean, anyone who worked for him must have been quaking in their boots thinking,
right, we're gonna have to skim less off the top from now on. But it's, yeah,
you know, this is massive. It's unfortunate that, you know, we just don't see
beyond that in this text.
Yeah. A few final comments coming through on the feed that I'll just read out
because there's some good stuff here. So Sharon said, someone once told me that
desire can follow attention. I found that really helpful. I can choose what I
give my attention to, even if I don't feel like it, just as Aidan said in his
example. Alicia said perspective is so critical because just as we could assume
that our giving will be abused, we can also choose to assume that it's going to
be used for good. And I believe our efforts count to God. Um, Sharon also said,
I think it can be a fun activity partnering with God to be generous. I think
that's a really, really good point, actually. Um, yeah, you can have some real
adventures with giving, can't you? Probably not got enough time to unpick them
all, but Sure, we've got some— all got some examples of that. Um, Ellis says, I
really relate to Aid there. I make sure to read the Bible every day even though
sometimes I don't feel like it. However, other days I feel really motivated and
enjoy doing it. Both are edifying. That's a really good point. Um, I'm aware
that time is ticking along, so, um, any final thought from either of you guys
just in sort of rounding up? We'll, um obviously go across to the live lounge in
a minute, and the link for that will be coming up shortly on your screen or in
the comments box. Oh, it's already in there, I'm told. Yeah, I'm a step behind.
I know, it's almost like we've got tech guys behind us, you know what they're
doing.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, but yeah, so there we are. Just, just to shame me as I'm speaking. Um, so
yeah, our sound wasn't great tonight, but they're on top of everything else.
They can't hear you, Matt.
You're not on mic for once. Matt's just shouting from the— for anyone who's
listening, Matt's just shouting from the back of studio. No one can hear you. No
one cares.
No, exactly.
Um, anyway, before this descends into total chaos, um, any final thoughts from
you, Dave?
I just say that, you know, encountering Jesus loosened Zacchaeus's grip on money
and the selfishness that more often than not accompanies it.
Amazing. Yep. And how about you, Aidan? Have you any final thoughts to leave us
with?
Yeah, so Zacchaeus had it all. He had all the kind of wealth he wanted. He did
not have community, and community really cannot be underestimated. And if you're
watching this and you don't have community, please reach out to us. Heck, even
come along to the live lounge after this. We are an online community of
believers. Doesn't matter where you are, it doesn't matter if you haven't got a
local church. We can be your local church, literally on your screen.
Yeah, amen to that.
Amen.
It's very true. Um, just to let you guys know, next week we're back, same time
at 7 PM on proud. And, um, next week we've got Mike Harris talking, so he's
going to be here talking about when positivity doesn't help. And it's just a
continuation of this, uh, series that we're doing on Jesus the Revolutionary. So
Dave's laughing because he can't say the word revolutionary. I think it's—
I've said it once. I think it's a—
Go on, Dave, before we sign off, just try it.
Jesus. Jesus.
Jesus.
Revolutionary.
Nearly.
He's been practicing, everyone. He's been practicing. Jesus the revolutionary. I
don't think it's that hard. Anyway, never mind. Tell us in the chat bar if you
think revolutionary is hard to say. Um, but yeah, on that, on that, exactly,
join the revolution. So on that, um, note, we probably— it's time to wrap up.
But, um, yeah, hopefully join us in the live lounge if you want to continue this
chat. We'd love to see you. And if not, we'll see you next week. Take care.
Bye.