First Corinthians 15, 21, 27 in the Christian standard Bible say, for since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive, but each in his own order. Christ the first fruits afterward at his coming, those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he abolishes all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he puts all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be abolished is death, for God has put everything under his feet. In 1 Corinthians, St. Paul writes to the church at Corinth about divisions rising in the church. Just before this pericope, Paul is addressing divisions around the idea of resurrection. Some in Corinth were saying that there was no bodily resurrection and that Paul rejects that idea from Christian teachings. Or Paul does reject that. Here Paul explains that death was caused by Adam, which is man, and now life will be returned to everyone through Christ. After this, Paul will go on to explain there is also a spiritual resurrection in Christ and that keeping both in mind, should encourage all believers to work together. And for the gospel of Christ, Joshua, how might something as scientifically implausible as resurrection actually be the key to addressing divisions in the church?

It's a good question.

Thank you.

Well, there's a lot of ways you can answer that. I like that Paul does here not go well. Maybe it could be either or in unity wasn't found in him saying, well, let's find a way for you both to be right. He's like, no, resurrection's a thing, guys. So I like that he does take a stance, but that when he's talking about what it means for us to be the church is coming together and saying, hey, listen, this is the debate you're having. The important thing is like life, it's like, yeah, there is physical resurrection and spiritual resurrection. And in that spiritual resurrection, when we find life in Christ, who is Christ body right now is the church. We find life in one another when we find life in Christ. So I think that's probably the bit of here that's the unity isn't necessarily, oh, hey, we believe this people can come back from dead and people and you know, screw science. It's more of a We believe life is found in this spiritual. Well, that is Jesus Christ. And when we partake in that together, we have life together. Oh, that's my best crack at that. That was a hard question. You made that art.

Yeah, Been known to do that.

Hey guys, welcome to the Whole Church Podcast. Possibly your favorite church unity podcast. Possibly not, which is completely fine. No competition. That's kind of against the whole unity thing. We can't, we can't do that today. We're wrapping up the whole Church science fair. Earlier the year we did whole church job fair, talking about people's faith and interacting with their work. And now we're talking about faith in science and where we find unity and difficulty for unity and all that. And we finally wrapping that up after pretty, I think pretty interesting, like 5ish weeks. Yeah. I'm Joshua Noel, of course, and I'm here with the one and only Pod Almighty. The one whom the Godfather was fashioned after, if you've ever seen that movie. T.J. tavir Swan Blackwell.

Thank you for introducing me. But if you're listening to this, you should probably check out the Onzile podcast network links below. For shows that are like ours, for shows that aren't like ours, or shows that we like to like. And if you are intrigued by what we do here or otherwise fiscally motivated to support us, you can do that on fourth wall. That's our on our fourth Wall site. The links below in that as well. You can leave one time tip, you get free extras, you can buy merge, you can co member. It's a whole thing. Whole big shebang. Nice website. Fancy website. Check it out.

And who doesn't want to be an official member of the Whole Church podcast? Like that just sounds cool. Like, yeah, I'm a member of my church, Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in Chapel Hill north, but I'm also a member of the whole church. Yeah.

And the times are way cheaper.

Yeah. I mean, unless you don't want them to be. If you want them to be the same, we'll take whatever you. I'm not going to complain. Oh, man. So as always, though, for those who support us in their laughs, appreciate the one sacrament we always do to engender Christian unity. It's impossible to be divided when you're being as silly as I like to be. So we always start with a silly question. Today's as silly as it gets, I think. I don't remember this outline. To be fair, guys, if a local church in one of our towns actually. Oh, this is a good one. Actually had their own science fair. What would you be most interested to see at it? Tj? The Spartanburg Church of God of Prophecy science fair. What are you most interested to see at the science fair?

You know, I've Wished that I was Will Rose before, and I do now.

Too. Because, you know, you would know the answer to this.

Yeah. It would be a much better science fair, just generally. Yeah, that's fair for, you know, a local church. To me, I think I'd be most interested to see the science fair science project that, like, proves. Creation. That's what I'm expecting to see at one of my local science fairs.

You know, I'm just. I'm gonna give a shout out to the little guy today. What I'm most excited to see every science fair. I don't care if it's at a church or not. There is gonna be some guy or some kid at this science fair who just did something cool with magnets, because it's just weirdly obsessed with magnets, because that's just. That's always a thing, that guy answer. I don't see what he's doing. I like.

I like the kids who did ant farms.

Yeah. Like, what is.

Dude, that's not science, man.

Look up. Look up.

It is science, but, like, ants are science. You just bought ants.

You know, speaking of that kid, I never did it for a science fair, but did, you know, I like. Me and my dad built my own, like, bug crate. Like, I had my own little exhibit for, like, roly polys and stuff. That's cool. Crickets.

Terrarium.

Yeah. I think I'm just a huge nerd who, for some reason, like bugs. I still like bugs a lot. Yeah. All my.

All my science fair projects were about fish or space.

Nice. Mine mostly had to do with potatoes, weirdly enough. Easy, ma'. Am. Oh, yeah. Plus, I like to eat potatoes. Yeah. But also. I think whoever makes Planet Zoo needs to make planet bugs. Yeah. I just want to build a giant bug train. Yeah.

That'd be awesome.

Yeah. I'd get a lot of fun out of it. Yeah.

So we did speak in this series a ton about just different scientific topics. Is there anything that we both learned just in the science end that was interesting? What do you do? You learn anything that was, like, stuck out to you? Stuck with you?

I learned that probiotics are mostly useless, and I found that really interesting, mostly because I have now an even greater motivation to not waste money on those. And especially since I was told that the real answer is prebiotics, which includes blueberries. When blueberries. The answer is to me not buying a pill. That's a great day, you know? So that was. That was some good information. Yeah.

It's hard to imagine it being much better than that.

Yeah. Yeah. What about you?

Not particularly. I know great many things, unfortunately, but no, it actually was. I did learn, you know, a little bit about coral and what that's like. Currently, most of what I, you know, learn about coral is from old books and that has become rapidly outdated due to the rapidly changing climate of our oceans. So.

I also learned, and I think it is going to stick with me, the three brains thing, like, I actually get it now beforehand, I really was pretty confused about that. So that's the nice thing about podcasts, is I can just. If I don't get something, like in a lecture, I can go up to them afterwards. I'm not very likely to do that. Or I could, like, try and find a book. But doing a podcast where like my whole job is to just ask them questions until I get it, it's great.

Yeah, see, I cheated for that one. I listen to her on a different podcast. Let's do her. Talk to Josh Patterson.

I usually do stuff like that. I don't know why I didn't that actually I might have and just still didn't get it because I'm really slow sometimes.

It's happened before.

Specific topics. I'm pretty slow and I feel like brains and physics, those are some topics that I'm just not pretty keen on. So we both mentioned throughout the series that we study different science, various colleges. You know, I've done nutrition, chemistry, marine biology for a little bit, etc. You studied biology. You are the master of dinosaurs. You created dinosaurs. Why do you think neither of us have actually pursued a career in any of that yet?

Well, I know why I didn't. So I can answer that half of the question.

But you're not gonna evaluate me right now.

No.

Because I'm sitting right here. I could answer myself.

Yes.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. But what about you?

So for me, it was Covid hit in my junior year of college, right. Getting my degree, whatever. And this is not quite on the level, but in my sophomore year, I had applied for an internship to the Wuhan virology lab in China because there was a spot available.

That's sick. I didn't know you did this.

It would have been. Yeah, well, yeah, it would have been sick. But.

Oh, sorry, I didn't. I didn't put together the COVID connection. That's funny.

Yeah. Yeah. Can you imagine if I was in China?

I think I would have left our podcast. Would that have started every episode off with his TJ the Adventure of the COVID 19 and I. I don't think we'd still have a podcast.

I don't think so either. Somehow I still don't think I would have gotten it. I still haven't gotten it, like, at all. No, I haven't had Covid once.

Incredible.

It's pretty cool. But. I do like being in a lab, being, you know. You know, post Covid world though I'm a lot less comfortable being in a lab then. I just, I like serving people a lot. It's just I feel good doing it. And you can't serve people very well in a lab.

Or can you?

Maybe. But you serve a lot more people in a restaurant.

Yeah, probably. Yeah. Mine I really like. I feel like there's two answers for me. One is very honestly not joking. I am just so, so bad. At introductory level courses and also physics, it was really hard for me to get far. Chemistry, Like, I have like two classes away from like a major in chemistry and one of them is chem 101 because they just didn't notice I didn't pass before I got into organic 2. And they're like, wait a minute, you never passed Chem one? Well, yep. We need to go back there. So you understand thing. I'm like, well, clearly I understand the stuff well enough to do it. I just can't do one on one classes. I don't know what to tell you. Just now my brain works. Then, yeah, physics. I'm just, I'm really bad at physics. The other answer though is like, I feel like I get really fixated on stuff and excited because like, they're interesting and I love it. And then after I do it for a while, I get bored. Like, I really think that's a large part of it too. Yeah. Yeah.

Many such cases.

Yeah. Might be what's happening right now with my law stuff to be determined. Because I was already like, you know, I don't know if I want to be an attorney because they work so much. Maybe I'll teach law. Then I'm seeing how much they get paid and think about how hard this class is, you know what?

Which to be fair, is more than you get paid currently.

Oh yeah. But not as much as I would get paid doing other things that I can do. Mm. Yeah. But yeah, this is the thing is where I just keep going. I always run into something and then I'm like, yeah, try something else. Maybe when I'm a hundred I'll figure out what I want to do when I grow up.

Yeah, that's the goal.

Let's figure it out by the time I'm 100.

Yeah, that's my deadline.

Yeah. So we finally get to do something I've been waiting for for at least like two months now. We get to have the definitive answers for the whole church lab. And the answer. We're going to ask you a rapid series. You know, we're going to ask you all of them, all of the questions. Because I'm pretty sure you could do it fairly quickly still alternating. We're not going to alternate. We're going to go through all four categories in a row. Biblical, religious, everyday, mythical, and just see what all the answers. I think there's four questions in each and then there's one at the end that I really need to know the answer to. And I actually am confident TJ does know the answer to it.

Yeah, it's the easiest one.

All right, are you ready, tj?

I think so.

All right, let's jump into the lab. Which micro and macronutrients would mana have to have for the Israelites to have survived on it alone for 40 years as described in the biblical tale? And how many calories would they need to consume of the mana per day?

So the easy answer is all of them. But specifically, you know, fiber, carbs, fat, protein, sugars. Like it just has to have literally everything because it's all they subsisted of and that includes fluids. So get like a liter of water out of that mana. Very complex. It's a miracle for a reason. You know, calorie wise they're, you know, they're not having like a nice easy time in the desert.

Yeah.

So probably they would have to eat at least three and a half thousand calories a day. They were all very small, you know, compared to us today.

So dints bread flakes from the sky.

It would dense and juicy and fibrous.

God, that sounds great.

It does sound great.

Yeah. Actually, I gotta say, wandering in the desert sounds like the worst place to have gut health issues.

Oh yeah, they need.

They're gonna need Dr. John Pol to help them with their microbiome.

They absolutely would have.

So when Jesus turned the water into wine, what actually happened?

On a molecular level, I think it just got replaced.

Hmm. I didn't think you were gonna be on my side for that one. Yeah. Just really thought you were gonna tell me why I'm stupid. All right, here we go. Next one. The Bible claims there is a leviathan that once lived in the waters and that it will return during the end times. What might. Where might that creature be now? If it's actually real.

Terminus deep, you know, Marion's Trench. Easy, easy answer. But strictly speaking, it could just be anywhere that sonar isn't.

Triangle. If Jonah had a smart watch in the belly of the big fish, and if we took his story literally, what health warning would. Would it send him first heart rate.

Just fast heart rate.

Yeah, that's gonna happen before he even gets under the water.

Yeah, because my heart rate's gonna skyrocket if I'm blowing down a, a whale's throat, you know.

All right, so those are the definitive biblical science answers. Now onto the next category of religions. Would there be any way to science to test scientifically whether or not one religious tradition's prayers are more effective than another's?

No.

All right, if Muslim call to prayer was broadcast from the International Space Station, how would they know which ways. Which way to face Mecca?

Face Earth? I think the, the easy. Like that seems perfectly fine to me because it's based on your perspective. Right.

So that makes sense to me.

If you're that far from Earth, your perspective is kind of huge. You can just look at Earth.

Yeah. The only part that confused me on that one is you have to face down and towards Mecca, but if Earth.

Is already down, there's no down in space. You just towards Earth.

Okay, that makes sense. Okay. Most religions are believed to have formed their sacred traditions and items around crops and climates changed, changing. Observed during the middle Paleolithic era. I can't use words. Why am I on a podcast? What religious traditions and items should we then suspect if we discovered a people group that originated living underwater?

So it would, it would be weird. It would, you know, to us, it'd be completely strange. More tidally based kind of holidays and that sort of thing. You know, a lot of the observations would be for big tidal shifts, you know, throughout the sun's orbit or the, you know, Earth's orbit of the sun and how that affects the moon and therefore the ocean. Generally. It still changes wildly depending on which ocean they're in, but it would definitely be a little different.

Yeah. I do say, though, this question alone has me thinking of like using language of currents, describing God. That sounds actually really interesting. What's the best scientific metaphor for the Christian concept of the Trinity or the Hindu idea of Brahman?

Triple point. So the triple point is the idea, not the idea. It's real. Is the specific temperature and pressure wherein a substance is solid, liquid and gas at the same time. For water, it is 273.16 degrees Kelvin at 611.63 pa. And at that specific temperature and pressure, water is solid, liquid and gas.

Huh, that's kind of cool.

It's really cool. You can look it up. There's a video super, super cool to see.

Yeah, I might actually do that one. All right, moving on. We've done biblical science, we've done religious science. Now we're doing mythical science, intersection science, adjacent stuff. Okay. If the Sasquatch is out there, tj, should we most expect him to be from the bear or ape family?

Ape.

Really? Why?

He's ape.

Like, oh, I was thinking bears because, like, it's North American. I don't know. Okay. I don't know. If we found the fossils of a dragon, how would we best determine whether or not it really breathes fire?

So for a lot of organs and even like external factors like feathers, you can see on a, you know, a skeletal system where it would be attached, that kind of thing, there would be muscles involved that would be, you know, probably fire breathing specific that we'd be able to find and identify. And we'd be able to tell where those attached to a dragon skeletal system.

Ah, that's cool. All right, is there anything that Icarus could have done that would have kept his wax wings from melting as he got closer to the sun?

Nope, not back then.

All right.

Should have listened to his dad, just.

No.

Yeah, I mean, wax wasn't that cool back then.

I think that's the funniest thing about how people have answered that question is it's really a yes, no question.

Yeah, you sure couldn't have.

All right, if Medusa's. This is the one. I really did want to. Technically.

Technically, if he had like a solid understanding of thermodynamics and he had just risen until he could dive and cool the wax again. Maybe, but it's okay.

I've really actually wanted your answer for this one too. If Medusa's hair were composed of living snakes, how would their muscle movement and behavioral patterns affect the probability of them becoming entangled?

So the snakes are living, but they don't have their own sentience.

But they don't have what?

You know, they don't have their own sentience. They're not like, you know, a hundred individual sentient snakes trying to live.

Okay. Yeah, right.

Necessarily so they shouldn't get tangled because they're part of the same being. But if we're just gonna say they are a hundred snakes with a, you know, firm anchor on Medusa's head, they absolutely are gonna get tangled. Snakes do that when they are you know, like, freshly hatched. A big hutch of snakes will hatch and get tangled up, and they can, like, get themselves loose because they're just one big, long muscle, basically. A similar phenomenon can be seen in rats. If you've ever heard of a rat king. Terrifying. But rats, their tails will get all, you know, tangled up, and they will have to start acting as one being so they can all survive. It's much scarier. They can't free themselves.

Oh, should we now start discussing Great Mouse Detective or should we finish this podcast?

We should finish this.

Oh, okay. I knew sneaks. There was a reason they couldn't get tangled with themselves. I just should know. Okay. All right, so we. We've gone through three last category. I don't remember what we called this category. Practical every day. Yeah. Okay. Which are in clothes. Outside. Is sunlight or moving air the more important factor?

Sunlight. Moving air can be damp. True.

Such as during a hurricane. Why do some people swear by baking soda for cleaning, while others find vinegar works better?

I think pretty much everyone answered this the same way, and they do. They do different things. Use both together. You can clean anything, and it's fun.

Yeah. All right. What's the best way to save money on utilities?

Tj, don't use them.

All right, final question. Not in any of the categories. Just the ultimate science question. It's why science started, I think, was to let us know what's going on with the beach and lagoon in spongebob. It's already under the water there. Oh, there's another beach with another ocean under the ocean. What's going on? Dj?

So it's called Goo Lagoon, which kind of insinuates that it's like, tar or spilled oil. And you're definitely, like, supposed to get into that because Stephen Hillenburg was, like, you know, a sea life advocate. But they also play in it. They swim in it. They definitely treat it like it's just water. So that metaphor kind of gets blown out of the water. So it's really what it is. It's. It's a blue hole. I don't know if you've ever seen pictures of. If you haven't, I'll send you one. They're really cool. But it's basically a sinkhole filled with fresh water in the ocean. But what will happen? They form in, like, the Ice Age. That's actually the note. Caves will, like, collapse. Typically, what happens is they become apoxic, and they don't have any oxygen in them. So sea life that goes in there drowns.

Oh.

Because there's no oxygen in that water.

That's so weird.

Yeah. I mean, that's why they have lifeguards at Goo Lagoon. Because they can drown in there. Because there's no oxygen in there.

In fact, can drown a fish.

You can drown a fish.

Yeah. Huh. Yeah. I always. For some reason, I thought it was like, the salt deposits, you know, how, like, certain parts of the ocean have, like, thicker salt deposits. I thought maybe there's something like that. Yeah. But I like your answer. It makes much smarter answer. Yeah.

They're also really, really cool to look at, and you can go scuba diving in them.

That is cool. And now we finally have all of the correct, authenticated answers. So you guys can go back and score each of our guests and let us know who has the highest score based on how much they agree with tj. Yeah, Surprisingly, I didn't disagree. Like, I feel like my answers weren't that far off from your answers. It's weird. I really thought I was gonna find out all my answers were wrong. Been waiting two weeks, two months, to find out how stupid I was. And it turns out I'm not that stupid.

It's just pretty close.

Yeah. So I had three major topics that came up in the last in this series, the whole church science fair that I want to talk a little bit more about. Well, to be fair, I had five. We're gonna talk about three today, and then another next week's episode and then another on a bonus episode coming out about AI but that wasn't really brought up during the series, so I feel like it's fair to leave that as a bonus. Okay. First, ecosystems. The church in ecosystem. So we heard from the microbiome with John Paul. He talked about relating that to how the church functions and how the ecosystem of even bacteria really can give us new insight into the church. We also heard that with our other guest, Rachel Jordan, talking about the ocean ecosystems. Unload. Tj, tell us, how much is the church and ecosystem, and where does the metaphor fall apart?

I don't know if it does fall apart. I think even if you get to the point where you're like, oh, where are the detritivores? Process theologians. Pick up the waste.

That's funny.

Reformed theology. But really it's just pretty accurate. Like all good metaphors, you can kind of make anything fit in there. And the church is vast enough to be comparable to an ecosystem, so I think it just fits pretty well.

Yeah. Well, I think the thing is that, like, actual ecosystems are just the use of diversity and kind of Equilibrium, like where things have existed in such way that they found out how they benefit one another, even through, you know, not great means sometimes. Yeah. And like, I feel like anything that exists for a certain period of time is going to take that on. So I think in a weird way, the only place I see the metaphor falling apart and is like, yeah, the church is an ecosystem. So is literally everything is kind of like an ecosystem.

Yes. Yeah.

I think the difference really is that the church is. Should be modeling the best ecosystems. It should be a really high functioning one that's healthy for everyone, that doesn't necessarily have to rely on violence because there's plenty of ecosystems out there that do rely on violence and all kinds of things that maybe we don't want to imitate. But yeah, I did like that metaphor. And I definitely think studying them and seeing what is it that benefits ecosystems and what is it that harms, you know, the natural cycle is probably important for us to think about even when we're thinking about church stuff. Right.

And those things that we want to get rid of, you have to consider as also part of the ecosystem.

Yeah. I think the study of the ecosystem really can help us appreciate one another even when we disagree a little bit better because we realize that's actually maybe a vital part. Even if I don't like it. Like mosquitoes maybe. I'm not sure if mosquitoes are actually useful. All right. Another one was evangelism. I thought it was kind of interesting that this got brought up a few different times. I know Rachel Jordan mentioned it like, hey, faith and science is important, but it's not a tier one thing. And sometimes we treat it as this and it makes people not really want to have anything to do with the church. We had our last guest on I'm blinking. Dr. Probin. Jamie Probin. There it is. I couldn't remember his first name. He was discussing that too, of like, hey, we use evolution. But really the big bang is probably a better talking point if we're going to be talking about our faith. And I, I think it came out a few other places too. I think John Paul mentioned it when he talked about how Christians have been treating viruses. I love my neighbor. I take the vaccines because I live with my neighbor, I think is how he worded that. So I think there is a point to this of like. Yeah, this isn't necessarily the most important thing ever is if you understand science correctly. That's not a requirement to be a Christian. But I do think there's a level of not intentionally being Ignorant or denying science or, you know, putting your own foot in your mouth. There's a lot of things we can do here that harm us, that I don't think science is necessary to be a Christian, but I do think a lot of how we treat this topic can harm how we reach others for the church kind of deal, you know? Yeah.

So like the ability to not put science down might be necessary.

Yeah, yeah. And even if you disagree with common consensus, if it's not a tier one thing. Evolution is the easy one. But let's use flat earth. For some reason and for some reason, the way you read the Bible, you're like, earth is flat. Maybe don't use that as a starting point. Especially if, you know, you're like, I believe the earth is flat, but I know that that's a far fetched belief and I know it's not necessary for salvation. Maybe start about the stuff that is necessary for salvation, then talk about the other stuff and be like, hey, listen, this is what I believe. Other people believe different. I actually find that really helpful. Even stuff that I disagree with, like on immigration, if I talk to somebody, I'm like, this is what I believe. There are other Christians who believe differently. I think leaning on that ecosystem and making sure people know, like, hey, just because I believe that doesn't mean that that's what Christianity is. Because I believe in evolution doesn't mean every Christian believes in evolution. Just because you think the earth is flat doesn't mean every Christian thinks the earth is flat. And maybe pointing that out when you talk to people like, this is my personal belief. I think that could actually probably be helpful for evangelism.

Yeah, Well, I think flat earth is salvific and maybe we should start cutting some people off.

Does anybody who does it think the earth is a flat square with four corners?

No, it's a disk, it's a flat, it's a plate.

See, but like the Bible talks about the four corners of the earth. I mean, I don't know who he was talking about. You'll make a biblical argument for flat.

He was talking about the four corners of Afghanistan.

Oh, yeah. For those wondering, TJ is currently joking. Yes, I know. At least like a couple flat earth people.

I am currently joking.

Yeah.

I'm around Earther.

Yeah. But you know, I think when we talk about the Bible and I also do think, I feel like we do idolize a lot of this, I find it weird that so many times our conversations about our faith and culture have less to do with Jesus and more to do with what we think of abortion or creation or, you know, whatever here. And I'm like, why isn't. If we're Christian, why isn't the first thing we talk about Jesus and then the other stuff come after, you know?

Well, I think most people, like, oh, you're Christian, I'm Christian, we know Jesus. Awesome. What do you think about abortions?

Yeah, second thing. Very second thing. Period. Yeah.

Most people just want to disagree with someone.

That's true. Maybe pray about that desire, if you have that. Yeah.

And it's pretty easy to know if you're going to disagree with someone over whether or not Jesus exists. You probably know that before the conversation really starts if you're trying to disagree with someone.

Yeah, that's true. Okay. The last one is probably the biggest one of the three that I think I want to touch on a little bit more was original sin got brought up quite a bit. And I think this is one that I failed to mention the very first episode because I got on my. We shouldn't be against evolution without, like, pointing out, like, the reason people care about this is because of original sin. So the doctrine of original sin. Excuse me. So what most Protestants and a lot of Catholics, I think all Catholics also believe original sin. Yes, all Catholics do. Sorry, my brain's lagging today. It's the idea that since Adam, they believe Adam and Eve were a real first humans, they sin. So now everyone born from that lineage also has sin. And that is where in Catholic thought you come up with the Immaculate Conception. Appropriate near Christmastime, where the only way Jesus could be born without sin is if Mary had no sin when he was born. Maybe she sinned after. Maybe God wiped her sin from birth. Something happened that caused her to be without sin so that Jesus could be born without any sin. That is what the doctrine of immaculate conception is. And that's where a lot of Catholics will say double virgin birth. Mary was also born of a virgin. Which, you know, I think that just backs the problem up a generation personally.

But yeah, it's fine necessarily. It does.

Yeah. It's like that. You still have that problem that does Mary's mom without sin or, you know, like, at some point. Anyway. I don't mean to make fun of the Catholics. If I come off that way, to me, that doctrine just doesn't. It doesn't compute, you know. But yeah, that's the problem. So if we're gonna say that's how original sin works, that makes a lot of things difficult. Evolution would then mean if it happened, we would still have to say there was a first man, first woman who sinned so that sin can follow through. For original sin to still be true, Right. Or if the earth was billions of years ago, we had to find a way that still sin happened through one man, one woman, and it passed down linearly. For people who feel like they have to hold on to original sin, that would be the case. So with that, then you're saying without original sin, if we say evolution means no original sin to a lot of people, what you're saying is we don't need to be saved, which becomes a tier one salvific issue. So if original sin is the only thing you can think of, then yeah, I can see where evolution itself isn't tier one. But how you make sense of the first man and woman with sin being passed down can be. So we're getting really close to salvific issues when we talk about it, and that's why so many people get so passionate. I'm going to give you a few alternatives here. Not because I think, oh, original sin is bad, throw that away, use one of these. But it's one of those because. Because there are other ways to say that people are born sinful and we do need a savior. I don't think original sin and I don't think evolution should be treated tier one still personally, one of those is going to be what's called ancestral sin. This is what your Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, etc. They're going to fall under. This is the doctrine that they fall under. And it's just basically. Almost systemic. Because Adam sinned. We're all born with an inclination towards sin because, you know, dad and mom are doing bad things. The kid is more likely to do bad things. All of a sudden society is filled with sin. Everybody's killing each other. It's really hard to be the one person who isn't going to kill other people, you know, and those are the extreme versions. But like, even in our own world, we're like, if, you know, I think racism is a sin. I believe TJ also believes that. And in a lot of places currently in the world, it's been such where education has primarily been white. And then we hire from the educational people. So the people getting hired are white and etc. You get this really difficult situation where you don't want to hire someone based off of race. But also if we're only letting the white people been the ones who go to school, well, I'm not going to sue someone who wasn't educated to get hired. And then the problem becomes, if you're not from the people who had the jobs, from the education, guess what? They're marrying. They're having more white kids who go back into the education system. So with this cycle, at some point someone has to step in and start allowing someone other than just the white people in. And then once you do that, if you're just doing it specifically because they're not white, that's still kind of racism. So we have a system of racism. The only way to break seems to be more racism in the opposite direction. And there really isn't a good answer. Personally, I don't think there is an answer that's completely without flaw. And again, this is the most exaggerated version. But we still have something like this in America where primarily white people are the ones who've gone to Harvard, Stanford, et cetera. So you have this perpetuating issue. It's not an easy answer. And I think what ancestral sin does is say stuff like that is happening constantly around us, not just with race, but not just with murder, not just with lying, but with everything. So everyone is born with a likelihood to sin. So much so that it's almost impossible to be born in the world that we live in and never sin. And that's why we need a savior, AKA Jesus.

I agree with that. That's how I feel.

Oh yeah, yeah. It's probably very Greek Orthodox. Me too. It turns out the other one is the Jewish belief of yeser hara. It is more. Less systemic and more just about you. You individually are just born with desire to do bad things and have to change your desires kind of deal. Yeah. Which, you know, I'm not against, but that doesn't mean that it had come ancestral, just means everyone is born with a likelihood to do that. A lot of progressive Christianity is going to take a kind of similar route to one of those. Or it's going to be one of these kind of ideas of like, yeah, as people have sinned and continue to sin, yes, you're going to be born. If your parents are likely to sin, you are likely to sin. And you know, I think it's just pretty similar to Orthodox. I don't really actually know how to differentiate that. Well, but the point is there are different answers even within those with original sin. There's. Some people are going to say that there's imputed guilt, that I am guilty of Adam's sin, even if I haven't sinned because I was born from his lineage. Some people are going to Say that Adam sinned for us. He was the ultimate representation of humanity. So when he sinned, we all sinned. Something like sin itself is like, you know, whatever. So it could be imputed guilt, could be imputed sin. It could be sin through representation. There. There are just so many different ways of thinking about this. I understand why it comes really close to a tier one salvific issue, but there are other ways to wrestle with this. And when I think science seems to say that the one seems implausible and the church has other answers already that maybe we should say, okay, the one that seems less plausible from science, if we already have other answers in our theology, maybe we should just go with one of those. It's kind of my thought. Yeah.

And it's not like not saying original sin is not real. I'm not saying immaculate conception doesn't make sense. Immaculate conception is super interesting, though. And I also didn't know about that until, like, this year. Really intriguing, but, like, sinless Mary thing. I never thought about that ever. To me, God does miracles. Made no difference to me if Mary was a sinner. Jesus wasn't.

Yeah.

So church history is cool, man. You gotta read more church history. Just read the doctrines. There's some crazy stuff out there.

Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, that's also why they think Mary couldn't have had other kids other than Jesus, because then there would be multiple little people without Siddon walking around. And that just throws everything off.

Yeah. And then, you know, she just had. Jesus started sinning. She had some catching up to do.

Yeah. And I really feel like, you know, that's. That's another one of those to me, Immaculate conception as well as original sin, Flat earth. Actually, I'm gonna go with that one too. There are a lot of things that people got from the Bible that I can look at and go, I see where you came up with that. And it makes a lot of sense. But since there are other thoughts out there of how to interpret this and science seems to say that this way of interpreting it is incorrect, I'm gonna go towards the ones that seem more plausible just because to me, I'm gonna pull a wesseling in. I kind of like that. The quadrilateral thing of, like, relying on scripture, tradition, reason, and experience instead of just one. So I'm like, hey, tradition's giving me multiple routes here. Reasoning saying that this one's not very likely to be true. So I'm leave it alone just where I'm at first.

That's fair.

Yeah. Any other Thoughts about original sin or anything.

Echo Draconis divinity. Original sin to great game.

I'll check it out. Maybe. Yeah. So what are our big takeaway?

I was gonna get there, but. For me, I think the biggest takeaway is that science and faith are perfectly capable of interacting with one another and coexisting.

Mm, yeah, yeah, I agree. I think my thing is I'm proud of what we did with this series. I was worried it was gonna be something that's just been overdone because like God, you hear the faith in science, you hear the all evolution stuff so often. Oh my gosh. Just to me, when stuff gets overdone like that, it's like a Taylor Swift song. And I like Taylor Swift, but after like the first month, it's just like, man, I no longer can stand that song. Even though it was a great song. Just get played too often. That's how I feel like about a lot of this stuff. And I think that's where like there was a few points of hope in this for me. Like hearing people like Rachel Jordan talk about like how just ignoring the can we and just does it. It's like, yeah, the science is helping my faith and let's talk about that instead of saying can we do it? Or made me go, okay, so there are still. To me, I think there are still some interesting ways we can go about this conversation. But tj, what do you think? Is it still interesting or has this just been overdone and we people just need to stop the whole faith in science talks?

I think it comes and goes, you know, it becomes uninteresting until you meet someone who is some high profile scientist and is also super loyal to their church and you're like, that's interesting. Ah yes, I speak both of the God particle and of the God. But yeah, it has its times and I think it will probably remain interesting for the rest of time. However you perceive that to be time is not real.

Time was something, wasn't. Time is propaganda from the clock industries.

That's why you're so bad at physics. You can't accept that time is, you.

Know, that could be it.

Yeah, I figured it out. So what in the sciences or nature make us really see how awe inspiring that God is? Like how many of our guests were inspired by their studies to love God more deeply?

You know, in a weird way, like the most destructive things and also the smallest things are what really draw me in. So like growing up in Florida, hurricanes just gotta let you know if you being somewhere during a hurricane, seeing Some seeing a town after it was hit by a hurricane, it is really difficult not to see that and be like, whoa. Like, it. Like, it just fills you with this kind of sense of. I don't know, it's hard to see some of the results of that and not feel like there's something greater than you. So to me, I always get, like. I know it's, like, terrible because, like, hurricanes ruin people's lives, but, like, just how powerful it is makes me really just, I don't know, feel a lot of awe, like the question said.

And it makes it, like, really easy to understand how the ancient Greeks came up with angry dudes. All the gods are angry dudes.

Must be really pissed. Yeah, yeah.

It's super understandable.

But then, like, also the really, really tiny things, like, man, I'm a nerd. I've been playing Planet Zoo a lot lately, right. And how difficult it is for me to juggle a simulation of a zoo where I'm having all these different animals and have to keep. Keep, you know, different people going in here and there to take care of the different exhibits and taking care of all of our customers, you know, and it's like, oh, man, that's a lot. That's. That's hard. It is challenging, then, to think of, like, how the entire world just exists and there's, like, tiny little bacteria that could just throw the whole thing off and somehow it functions. To me, that's just incredible. I don't know.

Yeah. For me, it's organs, organelles, organ systems, the human intravascular system, every single animal organ.

Ducks. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, I mean, the way beings work, it's incredible, and it's just so unbelievable. That's why if you watch the newest Frankenstein by Guillermo del Toro. No bias.

Good movie.

I love. I love him. And the way Victor Frankenstein breaks down the human body, he's like, look at this. Also this. But it is truly beautiful to see the, you know, just your veins laid out, cross sections of human. It's divine.

Yeah, yeah.

In a not mad scientist way. It's divine.

Yeah. Not like you want to be God in a. Wow. God's cool. And I shouldn't do that. Yeah.

It's more of like a. Whoa. I cannot do that. Nor could any human.

Yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah. And I just. I think that's the cool stuff about science, when you just discover how intricate everything is and how well put together it is and just how. Just. I don't know. If you take a step back and don't ask, like, we should be asking how it affects our theology. I'm not saying you should never do that, but I think sometimes if you just pause that for a minute and just look at what we've discovered or seen about the universe, it's all inspiring on its own. And I don't think you necessarily have to always go, well, what does this mean about my theological idea of sometimes? Yeah, engage that question. But sometimes just see the world for what it is. Like the human body for what it is, microbiomes for what they are, the supernovas, the nebula, stars, whatever. Sometimes just observe it and read it, think about it and be like, wow, that's incredible. Just let it be.

Especially when you start studying space, a lot of things are coincidental. And like, man, that's a. That's a crazy coincidence.

Yeah. The fact that there's just a monkey with symbols in the middle of the multiverse is wild.

God put that there. Yeah, I've seen Toy Story 4.

3. I just completely didn't get to that either. Oh, man. So moving on. Tj, we always like to ask our guests. And I love when I get to ask you, before wrapping up, what is a single practical action that could better help endure Christian unity that our listeners could stop and do right now, just stop. Gonna do this action, and the church is gonna be more united. What is it?

Tangibility is difficult.

Yes.

It's subjective. What's tangible for one person might not be tangible for another. And I think that's why this question is so difficult to answer. What we would consider to be, you know, appropriately. Because we judge all of our guests and they're like, that wasn't tangible at all. But, yeah, we don't do that.

Listen, better someone just gonna go outside and be like, someone tell me something. Come on.

Yeah, but that really is a great one. But as far as uniting the church goes, and it's gonna sound crazy, every church you've ever been to probably already does it. And I know Josh hates it, but you stand up and you shake somebody's hand. That doesn't mean shake your grandma's hand. You're supposed to introduce yourself to someone else. The church can't be unified if you don't know the church.

I think my favorite thing since going Lutheran is like, a lot of times their version of that is literally like, tell someone peace or give them peace. And they're literally just going, peace, peace. Man, no one touched me. This is great.

Yeah, but you gotta. You gotta know the church to unite the church.

Yeah. Well, also, the microbiome Episode really makes me go, eh, wait a minute. Maybe the whole shaking hands and taking communion from the same loaf of bread actually might be important.

It is.

Yeah.

It's like how having a cat makes you like cats more. Because it literally does that.

I was gonna say, so far. That's not true.

It is. It is true. You like the cat.

I like one of them. But overall, I think I like the species a lot less. Mm. Yeah. But sorry, that's not the point.

It's called toxoplasmosis.

Oh. All I know is got the first cat. I was like, yeah, it can't be that bad. Three cats later. Yeah. No, never again. No, no more.

He really likes two of them.

Really like one of them. Yeah. Anyway. So practically, what changes in the world if people actually start shaking each other's hands, having communion together, physically being with one another, do we see change tomorrow happening?

Yeah, you just. By knowing your church better, you're going to be more able to unite your church with others.

Yeah.

It's really simple first step. And it's really easy to back out of because you're sitting near your family and you go shake your sister's hand instead of, you know, the new guy.

Yeah. The amount of misunderstanding people have because they don't really have relationship with others is actually wild. And still meet people who are like, oh, yeah, immigrants. They are here illegally because they don't want to pay taxes. And I'm like, no, actually, most of them still pay more taxes than you do. And I love paying my taxes. Or like, the times I run into people who are like, Pentecostals. You mean the snake people? And I'm like, listen, I grew up Pentecostal. Not once did I have to hold a snake.

I did. Not in church.

But wait a minute. You know, now I'm on the Lutheran side. I get like, oh, are they Christians, too? And I go, they were actually Christians before most other Protestants were Christians. Yeah. I mean, like, the amount of people who don't think Catholics are Christians or believe in Jesus, I mean, that's just crazy. Yeah. Like, if we just knew each other more and, like, didn't come at it, like, combatively or just were friends. And then when someone had a question or like, oh, well, Catholics don't believe this, you'd be like, oh, hey, yeah, actually, that's not right. I'm friends with a Catholic. I'm friends with this, you know? Yeah.

So we do one thing before we wrap up, where we share a moment where we saw God recently. We call it a God moment. Not sure if you ever heard of this Joshua Noel. But whether it's a blessing, a challenge mode of worship, whatever it may be, always make Josh go first. So I have plenty of time to think. So, Josh, do you have a God moment for me today?

Yes. Earlier today I met with somebody about starting my candidacy for the pastorate and the elca, and I'm learning about that and e. Discerning my calling kind of in that process. And yeah, I mean, I still got a lot of challenges. Cause I have changed my mind about stuff a lot. So I'm like, eh, is this just another. But then I realized, you know, originally I wanted to do ministry. I don't know. Still being challenged a lot, but in the midst of discerning and praying about it and. Yeah, you know, so I think I'm gonna go with that as a challenge. I think that's what it is. Challenge to discern. Well, yeah.

Going all over the place, man. Marine biology, nutrition law. Back to church. For real. Too Lutheran. Too furious. For me. Two fasting, two Lutheran. For me. My God moment is probably going to be. I had a second surprise Thanksgiving. And I know that's the kind of thing that would make Josh's head blow up.

Ah, how did I miss this?

Yeah, but we do the one big family Thanksgiving every year. We do that. This year we got to do Thanksgiving with my mom's side of the family, which doesn't happen that often. That side of the family is a lot more contentious.

I'll say. They should know they can invite me.

I will next time. I hope you're free next time.

Yeah, me too.

But getting to see that side of the family, which I don't see that often, was. Was really great. And being able to catch up with them, you know, cousins who I've known my entire life and just never get to see anymore because. Estranged family.

But we prevail and we reunite in like a week. I get to see my cousins in Kentucky. Yeah, I'm excited. There's always like a bunch of stuff I find out about my family that I just. You know, we touch base like twice a year. So there's always like, oh, yeah, by the way, did you know that aunt so and so lost an arm? No. Nobody tell me that. It's always crazy, man. Yeah.

I was thinking about how I swear if someone lost his arm earlier. No, just in general. Like if. If my arm got ripped off, there's a pretty good chance I'd survive.

Yeah.

Isn't the human body insane?

Yeah. Let's Watch Frankenstein.

Let's watch Frankenstein. But if you like this episode, please consider sharing with a friend. Share with an enemy. Share with your cousins. Josh's cousins.

Yeah, especially my cousins.

They'll listen. They'll listen to anything. They love slopes. It's part of being from Kentucky.

I don't think that's only. That's right.

I bet it is. I bet it is. But please rate and review the show on Pod Chaser, Apple Podcast, Spotify. Wherever you listen, rate the show. It helps a lot. Leave us a little review. Tell us Merry Christmas or Happy Kwanzaa if you'd rather.

Yeah, this is large. We need lard. Yeah, that's what Christians eat. Christians eat lard.

Christians eat.

Check out our other shows on the podcast. At work, you can hear the Kung Fu Pizza Party with Brandon Knight. You can listen to Sis Mike Ecology with me, TJ, Christian, Will, a bunch of others. It's a good time.

Yep. And we hope you enjoyed it. Coming up, we will be interviewing Pastor Will Rose and Pastor Thomas Johnson about their upcoming educational podcast in association with the AELCA and the Onaza Podcast Network, named your Matter Matters. Then we're going to take a quick one week break before releasing a Christmas Eve special discussing the past, present and future of Christmas traditions with Dr. Peter Beck from CSU, Father Jonathan Rasmini of the Greek Orthodox priest and Professor Chris Moreland, who's a devoted Catholic, after. You know what? I'm going to hurt myself now. Why'd you list them like that? That doesn't make any sense. Just.

Just what my brain thought.

After that, we're gonna end the year with an episode with Dr. Chris Hansen on open and relational parenting. And that's just. That's in the past.

Yeah, it's not out yet. Won't be out till after that.

Was that not science fair? I guess not, no. What a whirlwind of a year it's been at the end of this season. Francis Chance gonna be on the show?

Probably. Maybe as soon as someone tells him about it.

Anyone but us.

Yeah.