1 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:45,450 Brittney Sherman: It's uh, it's your ladies of Scarletto ever, 2 00:00:45,450 --> 00:00:46,990 but we're not ladies of Scarletto. 3 00:00:47,010 --> 00:00:50,260 We got to start that over.Over. 4 00:00:51,330 --> 00:00:52,250 Sonia Meza-Leon: We're so rusty. 5 00:00:54,660 --> 00:00:55,650 Brittney Sherman: Uh, all right. 6 00:00:55,650 --> 00:00:57,030 Hey, Scott lottos. 7 00:00:57,239 --> 00:00:59,640 We are your ladies of Scarlet. 8 00:01:00,420 --> 00:01:02,280 So it's been a minute. 9 00:01:02,670 --> 00:01:05,400 We, um, we took some time. 10 00:01:06,195 --> 00:01:08,115 We, we took a little break. 11 00:01:08,145 --> 00:01:15,164 We had, I think, finished 35 episodes, but, um, we, we rested up 12 00:01:15,285 --> 00:01:17,445 and now we're, we're coming back. 13 00:01:17,475 --> 00:01:21,195 So welcome back to the routine, Sonia, 14 00:01:21,975 --> 00:01:24,494 Sonia Meza-Leon: and I'm so excited about the routine. 15 00:01:25,065 --> 00:01:26,054 I have to say. 16 00:01:26,054 --> 00:01:28,155 Um, well, two things first off. 17 00:01:28,980 --> 00:01:33,060 You know, it's been crazy lately with the COVID-19 thing and working 18 00:01:33,060 --> 00:01:35,580 from home and Brittany, you know, this too, we've been slammed. 19 00:01:36,090 --> 00:01:40,410 And, um, when I look at my life and I kind of think, oh, I need to 20 00:01:40,410 --> 00:01:42,510 really like find my happy place. 21 00:01:42,780 --> 00:01:46,080 And then I, I go and I sit down and I watch a bunch of documentaries 22 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:47,220 about true crime and murder. 23 00:01:47,220 --> 00:01:48,840 And I'm like, this is my happy place. 24 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,810 Yeah, it's a little disturbing, but it truly is, you know, I've missed it. 25 00:01:55,020 --> 00:01:56,640 I miss talking to you about this stuff. 26 00:01:56,670 --> 00:02:01,440 I mean, we talk all the time, but not about anything, you know, enjoyable 27 00:02:01,470 --> 00:02:05,370 question, the whatever, like air quotes, but you know, just, I think things 28 00:02:05,370 --> 00:02:09,900 we're passionate about plus, you know, I miss the banter, so I'm so excited. 29 00:02:09,900 --> 00:02:10,440 We are back. 30 00:02:10,740 --> 00:02:13,860 We did take a bit of a break, um, you know, to catch our breaths 31 00:02:14,220 --> 00:02:16,350 so much going on and sometimes. 32 00:02:16,845 --> 00:02:19,995 You were happening in the world that I felt I just didn't really have. 33 00:02:20,385 --> 00:02:23,325 Um, I D I didn't need a voice at that moment. 34 00:02:23,325 --> 00:02:26,085 I thought that it that's, the situations are speaking for themselves. 35 00:02:26,085 --> 00:02:29,475 So out of respect to those situations, I thought it was kind of a good 36 00:02:29,475 --> 00:02:32,385 idea for us to take a moment and to look around and what was happening. 37 00:02:32,984 --> 00:02:33,435 Brittney Sherman: Yeah. 38 00:02:33,795 --> 00:02:34,755 I agree. 39 00:02:36,225 --> 00:02:38,085 You know, we, you, you kind of touched on it. 40 00:02:38,085 --> 00:02:40,484 We were slammed with our regular lives. 41 00:02:40,665 --> 00:02:45,255 So, um, I felt like I needed an opportunity to step back for a bit. 42 00:02:45,765 --> 00:02:47,175 I felt like. 43 00:02:47,970 --> 00:02:51,929 It wasn't the re the right time, the best time to be concentrating 44 00:02:51,929 --> 00:02:54,809 on this, but, um, I'm, I'm excited. 45 00:02:55,079 --> 00:02:57,390 Um, I'm really looking forward to getting back. 46 00:02:57,390 --> 00:03:03,600 I think we're going to have a few changes that will, um, we, we hope you'd like 47 00:03:03,660 --> 00:03:06,630 that we think will hopefully improve. 48 00:03:06,959 --> 00:03:12,029 We are working on trying to build our brand a little bit and hopefully 49 00:03:12,029 --> 00:03:13,980 make Scarlet TCP a little bit. 50 00:03:15,450 --> 00:03:16,560 Sonia Meza-Leon: That's right. 51 00:03:16,890 --> 00:03:21,840 And, um, I'm excited about tonight because in this episode, you know, as we normally 52 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:26,400 do for each each record, you know, we record a couple of episodes at a time and 53 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,600 we usually start, you know, we developed this system where we can really get into 54 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:36,270 our group quickly by just having a, sort of a run and gun, top three conversation. 55 00:03:36,540 --> 00:03:39,990 And, you know, it's just a moment for us to talk about things, um, you 56 00:03:39,990 --> 00:03:42,450 know, quickly, uh, you know, top line. 57 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,160 That allows us, you know, just to get warmed up without having too much 58 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,170 detail and too much reference material. 59 00:03:48,530 --> 00:03:54,320 And, um, this, I suggested this topic to you and the topic is, I said, you 60 00:03:54,320 --> 00:04:00,079 know, let's talk about our top three unjust verdicts or what most people 61 00:04:00,079 --> 00:04:01,790 would call wrongful convictions. 62 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:02,420 Right. 63 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,940 I said that in passing because, you know, I had a lot of things on my mind and I 64 00:04:07,940 --> 00:04:11,870 had been watching some things lately and I, I, one of my favorite documentaries 65 00:04:11,870 --> 00:04:17,060 about some true crime, true crime situation is, is in particular about that. 66 00:04:17,420 --> 00:04:21,380 And, um, I, then I started licking my list and it was really hard. 67 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,920 So my list is actually probably a little different than you're expecting, 68 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:26,810 but let's dive right into it. 69 00:04:26,840 --> 00:04:28,940 Let's do our top three wrongful conduct. 70 00:04:30,195 --> 00:04:33,315 Brittney Sherman: Well, you can't leave me baited like that. 71 00:04:33,315 --> 00:04:34,635 So this was your topic. 72 00:04:34,935 --> 00:04:37,065 You seem to have some unique thoughts. 73 00:04:37,065 --> 00:04:37,875 So what are you getting. 74 00:04:39,555 --> 00:04:42,375 Sonia Meza-Leon: Well, let's go back a little bit because what do 75 00:04:42,375 --> 00:04:43,875 we mean by wrongful convictions? 76 00:04:43,905 --> 00:04:46,035 That's like, I thought it best. 77 00:04:46,335 --> 00:04:48,315 I mean, I wasn't even calling it the wrong thing running. 78 00:04:48,315 --> 00:04:49,725 I was saying unjust verdicts. 79 00:04:49,725 --> 00:04:50,055 Right. 80 00:04:50,055 --> 00:04:53,595 But Bronco convictions, the more appropriate terminology 81 00:04:53,925 --> 00:04:56,345 and used by most, I. 82 00:04:57,094 --> 00:05:02,435 I had a hard time, you know, because there's so many, I was really saddened 83 00:05:02,435 --> 00:05:07,205 by the number of, of, of wrongful convictions and the people who are 84 00:05:07,205 --> 00:05:09,185 sitting in jail now because of it. 85 00:05:09,635 --> 00:05:15,575 So I, my choice for my top three is actually just one case. 86 00:05:16,055 --> 00:05:21,605 And, um, Yeah, I know I had a really hard time trying to figure out who I would put 87 00:05:21,605 --> 00:05:25,775 on my list because all of the wrongful convictions in my opinion are terrible. 88 00:05:25,865 --> 00:05:26,135 Right. 89 00:05:26,135 --> 00:05:27,245 Terrible situations. 90 00:05:27,605 --> 00:05:33,455 Like, and I didn't want to disrespect any of those other choices, honestly. 91 00:05:33,455 --> 00:05:36,935 It's not fair for me to say, oh, one's better than the other. 92 00:05:37,145 --> 00:05:40,955 And in this one, I was like, ah, this is, this is a tough one, but go back 93 00:05:40,955 --> 00:05:42,425 a little bit to wrongful convictions. 94 00:05:43,469 --> 00:05:46,860 Colorado sciences attention to a really, really interesting. 95 00:05:47,895 --> 00:05:51,645 Piece of literature, literature that op-ed piece by John Grisham. 96 00:05:51,645 --> 00:05:52,005 Right. 97 00:05:52,365 --> 00:05:55,575 And we know who John Grisham is, world famous attorney writer. 98 00:05:55,995 --> 00:06:02,205 And he did an amazing job of summarizing the eight reasons for America's 99 00:06:02,205 --> 00:06:04,125 shameful number of wrongful convictions. 100 00:06:04,545 --> 00:06:06,225 And he wrote it for the LA times. 101 00:06:06,225 --> 00:06:07,485 It was written in 2018. 102 00:06:07,785 --> 00:06:09,165 I would suggest you guys reading it. 103 00:06:09,165 --> 00:06:13,095 It's so fascinating because he writes like a screenwriter. 104 00:06:13,305 --> 00:06:14,925 So he writes in a way. 105 00:06:15,575 --> 00:06:16,925 Really is compelling. 106 00:06:17,145 --> 00:06:21,545 And so you're entertained by his peace, but he is so right on with it. 107 00:06:21,875 --> 00:06:25,804 And you know, just a summary of wrongful convictions in the United States. 108 00:06:26,585 --> 00:06:31,355 I think that right now, the average that's considered, you know, the, 109 00:06:31,775 --> 00:06:35,555 for wrongful convictions versus other convictions, it's 2%, 10%. 110 00:06:36,155 --> 00:06:36,605 I feel 111 00:06:36,605 --> 00:06:37,095 Brittney Sherman: like the phone. 112 00:06:38,100 --> 00:06:39,330 Yeah, it's a real lot. 113 00:06:39,350 --> 00:06:43,050 I actually was going to say it's like 10%, which is way, way too many. 114 00:06:44,670 --> 00:06:49,170 Yeah, no, there, there was a great quote, I think even by Ronald Reagan 115 00:06:49,590 --> 00:06:53,790 who kind of prided himself on law and order that pretty much said. 116 00:06:55,335 --> 00:07:02,145 Wrong Cole wrongful conviction is worse than 100 guilty men going free. 117 00:07:02,685 --> 00:07:02,895 You 118 00:07:02,895 --> 00:07:04,365 Sonia Meza-Leon: Bennet, but it's rampant. 119 00:07:04,365 --> 00:07:08,385 And, uh, usually, you know, I have to say most of the time. 120 00:07:09,105 --> 00:07:11,985 We have revolves around people who don't have the ability, the 121 00:07:11,985 --> 00:07:18,015 financial means or the support in any other way, really, to be able 122 00:07:18,015 --> 00:07:21,015 to, um, you know, defend themselves. 123 00:07:21,255 --> 00:07:23,775 They probably got a, a typical, you know, someone assigned 124 00:07:23,775 --> 00:07:25,005 to their cases and attorney. 125 00:07:25,485 --> 00:07:29,235 I mean, it's a lot easier to, to defend yourself when you have a lot of money 126 00:07:29,235 --> 00:07:30,855 and you can afford good representation. 127 00:07:31,185 --> 00:07:31,905 So that's. 128 00:07:32,780 --> 00:07:37,640 It is, it really does suck, but, um, the John Grisham piece is really interesting 129 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:42,105 and he contributes, uh, You know, the, the number of wrongful convictions to a 130 00:07:42,105 --> 00:07:46,515 couple of things, you know, his, his top in no particular order, he says are bad 131 00:07:46,515 --> 00:07:51,315 police work, prosecutorial misconduct, false confessions, faulty eyewitness 132 00:07:51,315 --> 00:07:55,965 identification, jailhouse snitches, which I don't know why people would think that 133 00:07:55,965 --> 00:07:59,335 would be really, you know, Uh, okay. 134 00:07:59,335 --> 00:08:02,544 To when you're, when somebody's life is on the line to listen to someone 135 00:08:02,544 --> 00:08:07,315 in jail, trying to get a reduced sentence, it's weird, a bad lawyering, 136 00:08:07,344 --> 00:08:11,905 sleeping judges, meaning just letting things happen and then junk science. 137 00:08:12,354 --> 00:08:14,245 So it's a really good article if you want to. 138 00:08:14,245 --> 00:08:17,724 Um, guys want to look at it because I just think John Grisham was really talented. 139 00:08:17,724 --> 00:08:21,145 And when he writes, um, for the people who really understands 140 00:08:21,145 --> 00:08:22,044 how to convey that message. 141 00:08:22,044 --> 00:08:24,984 So now that we talked about wrongful convictions and what 142 00:08:24,984 --> 00:08:26,015 they are, and we talked about how. 143 00:08:26,625 --> 00:08:30,945 That are currently happening the percentage anyway, 2% at 10%, but I 144 00:08:30,945 --> 00:08:34,155 can tell you in the past, I'm sure that that has been much more, especially 145 00:08:34,155 --> 00:08:38,265 when it comes to people of color or, you know, people who are compromised and 146 00:08:38,294 --> 00:08:41,015 vulnerable, you know, Yeah, definitely. 147 00:08:41,015 --> 00:08:42,495 So sorry. 148 00:08:42,495 --> 00:08:43,695 That was really first. 149 00:08:43,725 --> 00:08:45,345 That was a whole long intro. 150 00:08:45,345 --> 00:08:47,085 So I know I even got lost 151 00:08:49,905 --> 00:08:50,805 Brittney Sherman: number three. 152 00:08:51,405 --> 00:08:53,535 Sonia Meza-Leon: Well, I want to talk about my number three, because 153 00:08:53,535 --> 00:08:57,615 like I said, my number three is actually all three of my, my wrongful 154 00:08:57,615 --> 00:08:58,995 convictions are from one case. 155 00:08:59,505 --> 00:09:02,025 Um, and that case is the west Memphis three. 156 00:09:02,445 --> 00:09:07,755 And again, my choice was this, the specific case really. 157 00:09:08,390 --> 00:09:12,770 Disturbing to me in so many ways and really well-documented and there are 158 00:09:13,460 --> 00:09:17,720 every other wrongful conviction is probably as bad or worse, but this one 159 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:23,900 just really hit home for me for a variety of reasons you had in 1994 or 1993. 160 00:09:24,690 --> 00:09:28,560 Three young boys, eight years old to, I think they were in second 161 00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:31,350 grade murdered horrendously. 162 00:09:31,620 --> 00:09:33,570 Um, obviously they were tortured. 163 00:09:33,630 --> 00:09:38,940 There was hard to tell about, you know, sexual abuse and things like that. 164 00:09:39,390 --> 00:09:41,610 Um, if you don't know this case, I would look into it. 165 00:09:41,610 --> 00:09:42,860 It's called the west Muslim. 166 00:09:42,910 --> 00:09:49,530 It's three weapons west, west, Memphis, Arkansas, um, and you know, sleepy 167 00:09:49,530 --> 00:09:51,570 little town, little country town. 168 00:09:52,340 --> 00:09:56,420 There were these three, second graders apparently were out, 169 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,810 you know, doing whatever second graders do, riding their bicycles. 170 00:09:59,930 --> 00:10:03,920 And, um, someone snatched them, took them to the woods. 171 00:10:04,310 --> 00:10:06,050 Um, hogtied them. 172 00:10:06,890 --> 00:10:08,120 It looked like they raped them. 173 00:10:08,150 --> 00:10:11,750 They mutilated their bodies and then they left them in the Creek bed. 174 00:10:12,050 --> 00:10:16,550 So what actually ended up happening was one of the boys died by blunt force 175 00:10:16,550 --> 00:10:18,110 trauma and a variety of other things. 176 00:10:18,500 --> 00:10:18,860 And. 177 00:10:19,995 --> 00:10:24,285 The other two boys actually drowned in the Creek bed, but they too were hogtied. 178 00:10:24,314 --> 00:10:30,194 And, um, there's an interesting documentary called paradise lost, um, 179 00:10:30,255 --> 00:10:36,345 about this case because, and it's, I, I will warn everyone too, when you watch. 180 00:10:36,839 --> 00:10:39,900 If you watch it, there are graphic photos of the children 181 00:10:39,930 --> 00:10:41,729 and the way that they were found. 182 00:10:41,729 --> 00:10:45,180 And it's really, really horrifying in this town. 183 00:10:45,209 --> 00:10:47,849 The small little Bible belt town just didn't know what to do with it. 184 00:10:48,510 --> 00:10:56,400 So cut to, um, three teenagers, um, that somehow or another got roped into, 185 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:02,489 um, the situation as suspects sounds to me like one of them who didn't know 186 00:11:02,489 --> 00:11:04,770 the other two very well, but knew them. 187 00:11:05,829 --> 00:11:10,660 You've got the, the three, the three, and this is, these are my three, my three, you 188 00:11:10,660 --> 00:11:15,250 know, essentially are the three guys who were wrongfully convicted for the crimes. 189 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,250 And I think it's known now that they were wrongfully convicted. 190 00:11:18,250 --> 00:11:19,750 I think it's, everybody would agree. 191 00:11:20,079 --> 00:11:21,640 Um, but I'll go through each of them. 192 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,850 And then I also want to talk a little bit about the, the little boys that were 193 00:11:24,850 --> 00:11:26,800 murdered because it's totally terrible. 194 00:11:27,100 --> 00:11:30,310 Um, but it was really, really hard, so I'll stop there. 195 00:11:30,579 --> 00:11:32,170 Um, but so that makes. 196 00:11:33,810 --> 00:11:34,350 I know crazy. 197 00:11:34,350 --> 00:11:34,590 Right? 198 00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:37,800 So that makes my number three on my list. 199 00:11:37,830 --> 00:11:41,760 Now that I gave you some backup by fro shorter, a backstory for the west Memphis 200 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:47,760 three, um, E now we'll talk about my number three of the wrongful convictions, 201 00:11:48,030 --> 00:11:50,490 and that is particular to this case. 202 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:51,720 And his name is Jesse Ms. 203 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:52,140 Kelly. 204 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:53,760 He was 17 years old. 205 00:11:54,180 --> 00:11:59,130 Um, uh, he came forward somehow. 206 00:12:00,105 --> 00:12:01,125 With the police either. 207 00:12:01,125 --> 00:12:01,725 They picked him up. 208 00:12:01,755 --> 00:12:06,285 I'm not sure how they got him in involved, but they essentially questioned him. 209 00:12:07,035 --> 00:12:11,445 And got him to confess to the crimes saying that he and two other 210 00:12:11,445 --> 00:12:16,605 people who are my number two and my number one, um, worked together 211 00:12:16,665 --> 00:12:20,895 and did this crime committed the crime against these three boys. 212 00:12:20,925 --> 00:12:25,185 And, um, it was instead, it was part of like a satanic ritual. 213 00:12:25,755 --> 00:12:26,805 So we'll leave it. 214 00:12:27,375 --> 00:12:28,815 A couple of things about Jessie, Ms. 215 00:12:28,815 --> 00:12:29,265 Kelly. 216 00:12:29,565 --> 00:12:32,385 Um, as, you know, if you, if you go and you look into the case, 217 00:12:32,385 --> 00:12:35,265 it's, what's interesting is he, he did have a bad reputation. 218 00:12:35,325 --> 00:12:38,415 I think that he had, um, his IQ was compromised. 219 00:12:38,415 --> 00:12:42,075 I think he had a very low IQ, which is one of the reasons they say that he was 220 00:12:42,105 --> 00:12:48,225 easily, um, vulnerable to, you know, being prompted in questioning a confessions and. 221 00:12:49,485 --> 00:12:50,445 What's crazy about it. 222 00:12:50,445 --> 00:12:51,015 The Jessie, Ms. 223 00:12:51,015 --> 00:12:54,345 Kelly Guy, the one who pretty much blew the whistle on these other two 224 00:12:54,435 --> 00:12:58,485 kids who were became suspects and then were ultimately found guilty. 225 00:12:58,935 --> 00:13:00,315 They didn't know each other very well. 226 00:13:00,855 --> 00:13:05,385 So here, you've got a guy saying, Hey, Yeah, me and these two guys, 227 00:13:05,385 --> 00:13:08,474 we went in, we grabbed these two, three boys and we dragged them into 228 00:13:08,474 --> 00:13:10,214 the woods and I held them down. 229 00:13:10,214 --> 00:13:13,305 While these other two guys did these things to this, these, these 230 00:13:13,305 --> 00:13:16,964 boys, they didn't really know each other, like out of the blue, these 231 00:13:16,964 --> 00:13:18,675 other two guys get roped into this. 232 00:13:18,704 --> 00:13:21,885 And, you know, you can kind of see an unfold in the documentary, but 233 00:13:21,885 --> 00:13:25,395 I will hold, I reserve my number two are in my number one for later. 234 00:13:25,395 --> 00:13:27,675 But my first is obviously that Jesse Ms. 235 00:13:27,675 --> 00:13:28,245 Kelly kid. 236 00:13:29,310 --> 00:13:31,290 You know, who just needed to get the hell out of the police station. 237 00:13:31,290 --> 00:13:34,500 He was like, he would have said anything at that point. 238 00:13:34,500 --> 00:13:38,400 And he essentially just said, he said what he had heard about the case. 239 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,680 And he, many of the things that he noted were wrong. 240 00:13:40,950 --> 00:13:45,180 So of course, a person at his age, you know, not having representation 241 00:13:45,180 --> 00:13:50,130 in the room, um, of questionable and, you know, IQ who was easily persuaded. 242 00:13:50,190 --> 00:13:52,380 You know, he, he didn't have much of a chance. 243 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:53,910 Brittney Sherman: No, I. 244 00:13:55,319 --> 00:13:58,890 I am not surprised that you picked that topic. 245 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:00,959 I know it's one that you are passionate about. 246 00:14:00,959 --> 00:14:04,560 It's a frustrating topic for anyone that is familiar with it, 247 00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:06,150 or has watched paradise lost. 248 00:14:06,420 --> 00:14:09,870 In fact, if I'm not mistaken, it's a three-part docu-series. 249 00:14:11,110 --> 00:14:13,600 Over the course of like 20 years or something, right? 250 00:14:14,050 --> 00:14:14,680 Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. 251 00:14:14,740 --> 00:14:17,110 It's um, you can watch there is that. 252 00:14:17,110 --> 00:14:20,140 And then there's also one that it looked like HBO just compiled together 253 00:14:20,140 --> 00:14:22,569 to make one like 140 minute piece. 254 00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:25,750 But, um, yeah, so. 255 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,340 Once they had all of these three pieces because they had recorded 256 00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:30,730 their shot this over time. 257 00:14:30,970 --> 00:14:33,520 Um, then they, they did compile it at the time they were 258 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:34,660 releasing them individually. 259 00:14:34,660 --> 00:14:37,360 And there was a lot of people behind, um, the supporting 260 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,250 these guys and it didn't help. 261 00:14:39,550 --> 00:14:41,920 I mean, they spent 18 years in jail. 262 00:14:42,130 --> 00:14:47,140 Uh, I mean for crimes that really, they weren't, there was no proof that they did. 263 00:14:47,350 --> 00:14:47,620 They didn't. 264 00:14:47,620 --> 00:14:52,575 I mean, other than a couple of things, Led this town to sort of 265 00:14:52,575 --> 00:14:54,555 call them out and to ostracize them. 266 00:14:54,555 --> 00:14:57,945 And we'll talk about those, those, those, those reasons later, because 267 00:14:57,945 --> 00:15:01,335 this is where I can kind of really associate myself with these boys. 268 00:15:01,335 --> 00:15:04,095 And it's terrifying to think you could just get railroaded like that. 269 00:15:05,955 --> 00:15:06,495 Brittney Sherman: Okay. 270 00:15:06,825 --> 00:15:17,805 So my number three is not as deep as that I'll get there, but my number three. 271 00:15:18,719 --> 00:15:20,370 Is the Hollywood 10. 272 00:15:21,719 --> 00:15:24,209 And are you familiar with the Hollywood 10 Sonya? 273 00:15:24,359 --> 00:15:24,930 No, it is 274 00:15:24,930 --> 00:15:27,599 Sonia Meza-Leon: that, that sounds really, it sounds like a bar. 275 00:15:29,750 --> 00:15:32,099 Brittney Sherman: It's probably not quite what you're thinking of, but 276 00:15:32,099 --> 00:15:36,270 we're going to, we're going to do a little history lesson right now after 277 00:15:37,079 --> 00:15:40,079 world war II ended in the late forties. 278 00:15:41,295 --> 00:15:46,515 There was a Senator from my pride and joy, Wisconsin, Joseph McCarthy, 279 00:15:47,025 --> 00:15:54,224 who was, uh, went on a very strong anticommunist tear through the country. 280 00:15:54,255 --> 00:15:57,104 And he set his sights on Hollywood. 281 00:15:57,824 --> 00:16:05,265 And there were hundreds, if not thousands of Hollywood 282 00:16:05,535 --> 00:16:08,145 executives, writers, producers. 283 00:16:09,750 --> 00:16:14,610 That were targeted as being either potential communist, communist 284 00:16:14,610 --> 00:16:18,810 sympathizers, Stalinists, what have you. 285 00:16:19,590 --> 00:16:24,840 And while communism was not illegal in America, as you can imagine. 286 00:16:26,115 --> 00:16:31,094 Extremely frowned on and, uh, not something that anyone wanted 287 00:16:31,094 --> 00:16:32,985 to be considered a part of. 288 00:16:33,675 --> 00:16:43,365 So in, uh, 1947, he started, uh, he, Joseph McCarthy, uh, started the 289 00:16:43,365 --> 00:16:50,655 house un-American committee or who act and subpoenaed 79 people, uh, 290 00:16:50,685 --> 00:16:53,055 claiming that they were communists. 291 00:16:53,895 --> 00:17:00,915 Of those 79, ultimately 10 of them would come to stand trial in front of Congress. 292 00:17:00,944 --> 00:17:07,425 Now, again, it wasn't illegal to be a communist in America, but they 293 00:17:07,425 --> 00:17:16,875 were ultimately blacklisted and their trial was not for being a communist, 294 00:17:17,085 --> 00:17:19,454 but for perjuring themselves. 295 00:17:20,145 --> 00:17:20,984 So. 296 00:17:22,815 --> 00:17:30,915 10 Hollywood creatives, uh, political ideation, unclear, you know, they D they 297 00:17:30,915 --> 00:17:34,455 denied ultimately being true communists. 298 00:17:34,485 --> 00:17:42,315 They, they denied being the Stalinists or supportive of the Soviet union, but 299 00:17:42,345 --> 00:17:47,835 they were determined to have lied to Congress and perjured themselves, and 300 00:17:47,865 --> 00:17:51,105 were sentenced to eight months in federal. 301 00:17:52,545 --> 00:17:59,445 And that was the star of what many people can still hear of and are familiar 302 00:17:59,445 --> 00:18:01,485 with of the Hollywood black list. 303 00:18:01,575 --> 00:18:04,545 Uh, and so the Hollywood blacklist is. 304 00:18:06,285 --> 00:18:11,325 An unofficial list at the time, it was a real list of, uh, at this 305 00:18:11,325 --> 00:18:15,465 time it was a list of communists or communist sympathizers who worked 306 00:18:15,465 --> 00:18:19,305 in Hollywood, who were no longer allowed to work in Hollywood. 307 00:18:19,635 --> 00:18:22,725 A blacklisting is still a thing where you're doing. 308 00:18:23,300 --> 00:18:28,550 Spread around town and you essentially are no longer allowed to unofficially 309 00:18:28,580 --> 00:18:33,680 no longer allowed to work and you're on hireable, but this was the start 310 00:18:33,710 --> 00:18:40,850 of the black list system through what many consider an unjust trial 311 00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:47,480 in front of Congress of ultimately 10 influential creatives that may or may 312 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,360 not have been communists in a frequent. 313 00:18:52,455 --> 00:18:53,145 Sonia Meza-Leon: Wow. 314 00:18:53,175 --> 00:18:55,005 So what w what happened? 315 00:18:56,055 --> 00:18:59,265 Brittney Sherman: They were, they were found guilty of perjury. 316 00:18:59,565 --> 00:19:03,495 The only crime they legally could have been found guilty of for saying 317 00:19:03,495 --> 00:19:07,245 they weren't communists in front of Congress, even though under oath, even 318 00:19:07,245 --> 00:19:11,625 though they were felt that they were communists and so lying to Congress, 319 00:19:11,985 --> 00:19:13,995 and they spent eight months in prison. 320 00:19:15,060 --> 00:19:19,140 Never were able to get their jobs or regain their jobs back. 321 00:19:19,620 --> 00:19:25,530 Um, there was a, I haven't seen this, but there was for you really old 322 00:19:25,530 --> 00:19:29,610 fashion, Hollywood nerds, kind of like myself who kind of wants to see this. 323 00:19:30,150 --> 00:19:36,030 Uh, there was a 16 millimeter documentary shot about it in the fifties, but 324 00:19:36,030 --> 00:19:40,170 then there's also a movie called one of the Hollywood 10 that focused 325 00:19:40,180 --> 00:19:41,970 specifically on one screen writer. 326 00:19:42,455 --> 00:19:48,605 Who fought the hardest to try and proclaim his innocence despite being found guilty. 327 00:19:48,995 --> 00:19:49,534 Sonia Meza-Leon: And when was 328 00:19:49,534 --> 00:19:49,774 Brittney Sherman: this? 329 00:19:51,045 --> 00:19:55,965 Uh, late forties, early fifties, uh, it was throughout what is known 330 00:19:55,965 --> 00:19:59,685 as the who act period, the house on American activities committee 331 00:19:59,685 --> 00:20:01,605 periods, blood by Joseph McCarthy. 332 00:20:01,605 --> 00:20:07,755 And it was kind of a tirade that he went on to rid the country of any 333 00:20:07,755 --> 00:20:09,705 potential communist sympathizers. 334 00:20:09,705 --> 00:20:12,405 And he said his focus on Hollywood and the 335 00:20:12,405 --> 00:20:13,095 Sonia Meza-Leon: Hollywood system. 336 00:20:14,730 --> 00:20:17,610 My feelings about that era in another episode. 337 00:20:17,610 --> 00:20:21,570 But, um, there was a lot of shady stuff that happened around that time. 338 00:20:21,780 --> 00:20:25,110 I mean, it was, um, it was the wild west in Hollywood. 339 00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:27,510 Brittney Sherman: Okay. 340 00:20:27,540 --> 00:20:30,840 Onto your number two, even though you already kind of gave up. 341 00:20:31,875 --> 00:20:32,355 Sonia Meza-Leon: I did. 342 00:20:32,355 --> 00:20:32,835 Sorry. 343 00:20:32,865 --> 00:20:37,785 So back to the west Memphis three case, uh, I sorta Terentino's 344 00:20:37,815 --> 00:20:39,135 this whole process by the way. 345 00:20:39,135 --> 00:20:41,535 So I get it, uh, by the way. 346 00:20:41,895 --> 00:20:42,315 Um, 347 00:20:44,235 --> 00:20:45,225 Brittney Sherman: yeah, no, for sure. 348 00:20:45,555 --> 00:20:46,545 Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah, for sure. 349 00:20:46,935 --> 00:20:52,035 Um, so my number two was Jason Baldman, who was another one of the mid west 350 00:20:52,035 --> 00:20:55,605 Memphis three in Arkansas, 1994. 351 00:20:56,475 --> 00:21:02,085 Convicted of, uh, murdering being a participant in murdering three second 352 00:21:02,085 --> 00:21:04,515 graders and mutilating their bodies. 353 00:21:05,025 --> 00:21:07,365 And he was sentenced to life. 354 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:15,630 He as well as the other boys, eventually after 18 years, um, they 355 00:21:16,230 --> 00:21:20,520 did some kind of plea deal on using the Alford plea and they were released, 356 00:21:20,850 --> 00:21:22,500 but ultimately ruin their life. 357 00:21:22,740 --> 00:21:26,640 I mean, these guys were in jail from being 17 years old, you 358 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,650 know, up until 18 years later. 359 00:21:28,650 --> 00:21:31,380 So their lives had changed dramatically because of this. 360 00:21:31,740 --> 00:21:33,090 What was interesting about Jason, Bob? 361 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,940 Again, the other guy who ratted on them, the, the confession or the, 362 00:21:39,450 --> 00:21:43,500 the, whatever we're going to call it, the guy who had some problems and 363 00:21:43,500 --> 00:21:47,040 confessed under pressure, he didn't really, I mean, he didn't know them. 364 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:47,940 They weren't close friends. 365 00:21:47,940 --> 00:21:51,389 He didn't know Baldwin nor did he know the other suspect as well. 366 00:21:51,780 --> 00:21:53,370 Um, ballroom was interesting. 367 00:21:53,370 --> 00:21:57,750 He, you know, he, while, while the other guys, the other two Westminster was 368 00:21:57,750 --> 00:22:03,000 three guys, they did get in some troubles and vandalism, some shoplifting, um, 369 00:22:03,975 --> 00:22:06,855 Baldwin actually got really good grades. 370 00:22:06,945 --> 00:22:08,534 Jason Baldwin was not a dumb kid. 371 00:22:08,534 --> 00:22:09,495 He was a smart kid. 372 00:22:09,705 --> 00:22:11,865 He was a really good artist. 373 00:22:11,865 --> 00:22:13,395 Apparently he was talented. 374 00:22:13,665 --> 00:22:17,804 And, um, I guess he was going to go on to college, to study graphic design. 375 00:22:18,345 --> 00:22:22,185 Um, w when I unveil my number one, which you guys already know if you 376 00:22:22,185 --> 00:22:25,245 know the west Memphis three, we'll talk a little bit about those things 377 00:22:25,245 --> 00:22:27,225 that they ha they were had in common. 378 00:22:27,524 --> 00:22:28,544 Um, but yeah. 379 00:22:29,415 --> 00:22:33,465 Uh, my, again, my number two, Jason Baldwin, poor kid, 16 years old, 380 00:22:34,064 --> 00:22:38,205 you know, 17 goes to jail for what he thinks is the rest of his life. 381 00:22:38,264 --> 00:22:41,475 Um, for a crime, he really, really didn't commit that appears to be 382 00:22:41,475 --> 00:22:42,735 well-proven that he didn't commit. 383 00:22:42,735 --> 00:22:48,344 So again, you know, a travesty of justice and a really sad situation. 384 00:22:50,385 --> 00:22:50,955 Brittney Sherman: All right. 385 00:22:51,735 --> 00:22:55,754 My number two is Ruben hurricane Carter. 386 00:22:57,885 --> 00:23:02,774 Oh, I first learned about and, uh, became, he became. 387 00:23:03,854 --> 00:23:09,824 Probably pretty famous because of a Bob Dylan song called the hurricane. 388 00:23:10,004 --> 00:23:11,114 You know that on ya? 389 00:23:11,594 --> 00:23:12,854 Sonia Meza-Leon: I hate Bob Dylan. 390 00:23:13,245 --> 00:23:14,235 I know you do. 391 00:23:14,235 --> 00:23:16,965 That's how I, oh, God, like that was that's. 392 00:23:17,054 --> 00:23:21,975 I don't, there's no comparison the way you could ask me that I'm like, I that's 393 00:23:21,975 --> 00:23:26,294 the furthest from my, my, my world of music and I don't mind folk music. 394 00:23:26,354 --> 00:23:28,185 I just, Bob Dylan's voice just makes me 395 00:23:28,215 --> 00:23:28,844 Brittney Sherman: that's crazy. 396 00:23:29,084 --> 00:23:32,024 You know, I had a teacher one time compared Bob Dylan's. 397 00:23:32,879 --> 00:23:40,680 As the most successful worst singer of all time, specifically referring to. 398 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,290 Sonia Meza-Leon: I'd probably agree with that. 399 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:49,620 Brittney Sherman: Uh, but he's a hell of a songwriter and his, his song. 400 00:23:49,620 --> 00:23:55,440 The hurricane is an eight minute plus song about Rubin Carter, who 401 00:23:55,440 --> 00:24:01,170 was a middleweight boxer in the 1960s in Patterson, New Jersey. 402 00:24:01,770 --> 00:24:06,270 And he happened to be at a neighboring bar. 403 00:24:06,770 --> 00:24:11,840 To where a armed robbery and shooting that led to the death of 404 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,820 a couple of patrons took place. 405 00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:23,180 And he wa the witnesses claimed that they saw two, maybe three black men 406 00:24:23,870 --> 00:24:30,530 that were a, the VSA lens and a similar time Carter and two other men were 407 00:24:30,530 --> 00:24:33,980 leaving a neighboring bar and then were. 408 00:24:34,935 --> 00:24:37,335 No, doubtedly trailed by police. 409 00:24:37,665 --> 00:24:41,985 And at this time, Carter was not, he didn't have a clean slate. 410 00:24:42,284 --> 00:24:49,905 He was dishonorably discharged from the military for, uh, disciplinary reasons. 411 00:24:50,145 --> 00:24:59,385 He had charges against him for abuse, but he was cleaning up his act and he was. 412 00:25:00,450 --> 00:25:05,700 Pace to become, to challenge for the world boxing middleweight 413 00:25:05,700 --> 00:25:07,140 championship of the world. 414 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:13,830 When he was pulled over after dropping a friend off and arrested, ultimately 415 00:25:13,830 --> 00:25:17,700 charged and was convicted of murder. 416 00:25:19,050 --> 00:25:23,850 Now, the witnesses who claim to see, uh, that the shooters were black. 417 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,290 Did not pin Carter to the scene. 418 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,650 They did not identify him as a suspect. 419 00:25:32,129 --> 00:25:40,080 There was a female witness who called attention to a different suspect, 420 00:25:40,470 --> 00:25:44,370 but that suspect said he was just robbing the place and he wasn't 421 00:25:44,370 --> 00:25:46,560 responsible for any of the deaths. 422 00:25:47,370 --> 00:25:51,240 And the, I will, I seriously have to say. 423 00:25:52,034 --> 00:25:57,375 He ultimately, uh, was released from prison in the nineties, uh, 424 00:25:57,405 --> 00:26:00,645 because the witnesses recanted and there was evidence to support that 425 00:26:00,645 --> 00:26:02,354 he was never actually at that bar. 426 00:26:02,865 --> 00:26:08,594 And seriously though, like that Bob Dylan song can sum up this case. 427 00:26:08,625 --> 00:26:13,330 So, well, In eight minutes and then there's a 1999 movie 428 00:26:13,330 --> 00:26:14,950 starring Denzel Washington. 429 00:26:14,950 --> 00:26:17,590 That's about the same case that I've seen parts of. 430 00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:20,530 And it's pretty good, but it's, it's really a case that 431 00:26:20,530 --> 00:26:23,740 I've always found fascinating, particularly because of that song. 432 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,050 And I seriously would recommend anyone. 433 00:26:26,050 --> 00:26:31,960 Who's got eight minutes to do the dishes or running errands or something. 434 00:26:31,990 --> 00:26:33,160 Just throwing that song. 435 00:26:33,250 --> 00:26:35,170 You will get a really great history lesson. 436 00:26:35,530 --> 00:26:35,620 I 437 00:26:35,620 --> 00:26:36,610 Sonia Meza-Leon: think I saw that movie. 438 00:26:37,660 --> 00:26:38,050 Brittney Sherman: Yeah. 439 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:39,010 Did you see it? 440 00:26:39,855 --> 00:26:40,665 I've seen parts of it. 441 00:26:42,645 --> 00:26:45,254 Sonia Meza-Leon: I don't know what, I didn't see the whole thing I 442 00:26:46,215 --> 00:26:46,605 Brittney Sherman: remember. 443 00:26:46,675 --> 00:26:47,534 I know I do too. 444 00:26:49,455 --> 00:26:50,054 Sonia Meza-Leon: All right. 445 00:26:50,054 --> 00:26:52,395 Well, very. 446 00:26:52,455 --> 00:26:54,495 So what I mean, what was the end result? 447 00:26:54,495 --> 00:26:55,995 Did he get convicted? 448 00:26:55,995 --> 00:26:56,774 Did he die? 449 00:26:56,915 --> 00:26:57,185 No. 450 00:26:57,185 --> 00:27:00,135 Brittney Sherman: No, he was, he was convicted, but, uh, he's 451 00:27:00,135 --> 00:27:02,024 served like 20 years in prison. 452 00:27:02,054 --> 00:27:02,445 And then. 453 00:27:03,225 --> 00:27:07,305 Was released after witnesses, ultimately recanted. 454 00:27:07,395 --> 00:27:11,294 And there was actually really no evidence to support that he was, 455 00:27:12,435 --> 00:27:13,815 Sonia Meza-Leon: oh, well, that's awesome. 456 00:27:13,845 --> 00:27:15,524 Wait to wait 20 freaking years. 457 00:27:15,825 --> 00:27:16,125 Oh yeah. 458 00:27:16,125 --> 00:27:16,754 Brittney Sherman: It's terrible. 459 00:27:16,935 --> 00:27:18,645 Sonia Meza-Leon: How do you live with yourself even? 460 00:27:18,705 --> 00:27:21,075 I mean, I would doubt myself like day one. 461 00:27:22,245 --> 00:27:25,875 When it comes to someone's life in my hands. 462 00:27:25,875 --> 00:27:27,315 I mean, that is on the list. 463 00:27:27,315 --> 00:27:27,855 You know what I mean? 464 00:27:27,855 --> 00:27:33,945 I think that S Isen things are deceiving, you know, when you're in 465 00:27:33,945 --> 00:27:36,495 a moment and you think you're seeing something, or you thought you saw 466 00:27:36,495 --> 00:27:40,005 something really clearly, but, you know, I mean, how well did you see it? 467 00:27:40,005 --> 00:27:43,845 You know, it's just, it's, it's so tough. 468 00:27:44,865 --> 00:27:45,165 All right. 469 00:27:45,165 --> 00:27:46,785 Well, I like that one. 470 00:27:46,815 --> 00:27:48,075 So you've got one left, right? 471 00:27:48,075 --> 00:27:49,725 And your, your number, your, no, one's going to. 472 00:27:50,985 --> 00:27:51,405 Brittney Sherman: All right. 473 00:27:51,405 --> 00:27:53,235 So you, uh, you take us away for your 474 00:27:53,235 --> 00:27:53,685 Sonia Meza-Leon: number one. 475 00:27:53,955 --> 00:27:59,715 My number one is again, one of the west Memphis three, um, probably 476 00:27:59,715 --> 00:28:01,514 the most well-known Damien Echols. 477 00:28:01,935 --> 00:28:04,875 He was 18 years old when the crime occurred. 478 00:28:04,875 --> 00:28:09,764 So of course he was, uh, an adult, um, and tried accordingly. 479 00:28:09,764 --> 00:28:11,475 And I think the other two boys were as well. 480 00:28:11,475 --> 00:28:14,475 I didn't think that they really cared at that point, um, because 481 00:28:14,475 --> 00:28:15,645 the crime was so horrendous. 482 00:28:16,155 --> 00:28:17,835 Um, Damien Echols. 483 00:28:18,690 --> 00:28:23,460 Uh, from a poor family, he didn't attend school very often. 484 00:28:23,670 --> 00:28:26,280 He had a girlfriend, they ran off. 485 00:28:26,340 --> 00:28:29,760 Um, I don't know, they ran and broke into some trailer and then 486 00:28:29,790 --> 00:28:31,140 equals was charged with burglary. 487 00:28:31,140 --> 00:28:32,760 So he had some, you know, stuff. 488 00:28:33,060 --> 00:28:34,620 I mean, he wasn't like a violent criminal. 489 00:28:34,620 --> 00:28:35,970 He was just a dumb kid. 490 00:28:36,330 --> 00:28:42,330 And I think when you watch paradise lost, you'll see that it's, what's terrifying 491 00:28:42,330 --> 00:28:44,130 to me a bit when I watched that. 492 00:28:45,225 --> 00:28:48,675 It really does appear to me in a lot of the video that they shot 493 00:28:48,675 --> 00:28:52,065 at him that he doesn't have. 494 00:28:52,605 --> 00:28:57,525 Um, he doesn't have any feelings about the situation. 495 00:28:57,945 --> 00:29:01,425 Um, not that he doesn't have feelings about his own innocence, 496 00:29:01,845 --> 00:29:05,775 but he, and a lot of people say, well, why would he have remorse? 497 00:29:05,775 --> 00:29:06,465 He didn't do it. 498 00:29:06,465 --> 00:29:06,605 But. 499 00:29:07,185 --> 00:29:10,905 Respect for the situation is what I think was a bit missing. 500 00:29:10,905 --> 00:29:13,515 And that really offended people. 501 00:29:13,755 --> 00:29:16,995 Um, when you're talking about a crime that does this, this, let me just see these 502 00:29:16,995 --> 00:29:19,485 little boys and what happened to them. 503 00:29:19,485 --> 00:29:25,035 And, um, it, it was, you know, really, really horrendous and he, um, appeared 504 00:29:25,035 --> 00:29:27,435 in court sometimes to be indifferent. 505 00:29:27,825 --> 00:29:28,275 He. 506 00:29:29,145 --> 00:29:32,534 Uh, I mean, he just didn't take it seriously. 507 00:29:32,774 --> 00:29:34,455 And I don't know if any of them took it seriously. 508 00:29:34,455 --> 00:29:37,635 I mean, obviously the guy who confessed, he didn't take it 509 00:29:37,635 --> 00:29:38,985 seriously when he was confessing. 510 00:29:38,985 --> 00:29:40,245 He just wanted to get out of there. 511 00:29:40,575 --> 00:29:45,735 But, um, Damien Echols, you know, he was the perfect Patsy for this crime, 512 00:29:46,064 --> 00:29:51,254 um, in Arkansas at the time, because again, it was such a Bible belt and this 513 00:29:51,254 --> 00:29:55,395 was a kid who, you know, later on, I think they figured out that he had some 514 00:29:55,395 --> 00:29:58,625 mental, um, Deficiencies as well yet. 515 00:29:58,625 --> 00:30:03,935 Um, you know, grandiose and persecute, persecutory, delusions, auditory, and 516 00:30:03,935 --> 00:30:07,655 visual hallucinations, disordered thought processes, substantial lack of insight 517 00:30:07,655 --> 00:30:09,725 and chronic incapacitating mood swings. 518 00:30:10,145 --> 00:30:17,855 Um, you know, he had some stuff going on and, um, he it's just really perplexing, 519 00:30:17,885 --> 00:30:21,514 you know, I think that he thought it was a joke and I think he later, he even tried. 520 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,930 Say that he thought it was a joke that didn't take it seriously, 521 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,320 but it's when you watch it, it's, it's kind of offensive. 522 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,250 If you're sitting in a room full of people watching this trial go down 523 00:30:32,550 --> 00:30:36,900 against these, these suspects and they aren't taking it seriously, or he 524 00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:39,000 doesn't appear to be taking it seriously. 525 00:30:39,180 --> 00:30:43,560 And isn't, isn't at least thoughtful about the situation it's, um, you really 526 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,560 dislike him and I'll tell you why. 527 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,710 I have an, uh, a feeling, an association with Damian. 528 00:30:51,045 --> 00:30:54,915 And I don't not necessarily about this, but one of the big reasons as 529 00:30:54,915 --> 00:30:58,605 these three kids were sort of targeted was because they were the poor kids. 530 00:30:58,875 --> 00:31:00,945 They were the dark kids. 531 00:31:01,155 --> 00:31:04,965 And when I say dark, I mean, they were, you know, they weren't the 532 00:31:05,055 --> 00:31:08,865 jocks or the popular kids, you know, they were the outliers, they 533 00:31:08,865 --> 00:31:10,605 listened to heavy metal music. 534 00:31:10,635 --> 00:31:13,905 They wore black clothes, they had black fingernails. 535 00:31:13,905 --> 00:31:17,284 I mean, they were, you know, The people associated them with being goth, 536 00:31:17,524 --> 00:31:19,115 even though Jason Baldwin was a goth. 537 00:31:19,145 --> 00:31:20,465 I mean, he was just a heavy metal kid. 538 00:31:20,465 --> 00:31:22,534 He had a little mullet, like no big damn deal. 539 00:31:22,985 --> 00:31:25,774 Um, I mean, it was really weird, but Damien Echols 540 00:31:25,774 --> 00:31:27,395 definitely had played that part. 541 00:31:27,455 --> 00:31:31,445 And then of course they found nonsense, um, you know, at Damien Echols 542 00:31:31,445 --> 00:31:34,564 house, which they thought proved the point, they found like the satanic 543 00:31:34,564 --> 00:31:37,085 Bible and some other literature. 544 00:31:37,085 --> 00:31:39,665 And he had said at one point that he was in a WCA. 545 00:31:40,570 --> 00:31:43,690 They hadn't read his binder and some of the poems he wrote and yeah, they 546 00:31:43,690 --> 00:31:47,890 were a little dark, but I have to say, you know, what attracted me to this 547 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,850 case in particular was because I really felt like that they were ostracized 548 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,060 from their community because of those reasons they were considered punks, 549 00:31:55,330 --> 00:32:02,805 um, satanic, you know, this was all about a set, a satanic ritual, um, So 550 00:32:02,805 --> 00:32:04,544 unfair, these guys are kids, right. 551 00:32:04,695 --> 00:32:08,325 And they're being persecuted like that just for being, you know, 552 00:32:08,325 --> 00:32:10,274 not part of the popular group. 553 00:32:10,455 --> 00:32:13,995 And I felt like that when I was young, you know, I definitely, my crowd was 554 00:32:13,995 --> 00:32:18,044 a little more, uh, well, definitely more on the outlier side of things. 555 00:32:18,044 --> 00:32:21,195 And, you know, we, Hey, we wore black w who cares. 556 00:32:21,195 --> 00:32:24,044 Like, I don't know if that was like a big deal for us. 557 00:32:24,044 --> 00:32:29,470 It wasn't like that defined us, but we, you know, We definitely didn't have that. 558 00:32:29,470 --> 00:32:32,740 You know, I mean, when you're a teenager and you're not part of the popular group, 559 00:32:32,890 --> 00:32:36,160 you're anything, if you're anything but the popular group, you're probably not 560 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,790 enjoying yourself that much, unless you're completely oblivious because you always, 561 00:32:40,150 --> 00:32:44,230 those, the people who are the popular kids make sure, you know, you're not. 562 00:32:45,045 --> 00:32:49,695 And that's where I feel for these guys, because it's so true. 563 00:32:49,695 --> 00:32:50,595 They, they love it. 564 00:32:50,595 --> 00:32:51,375 They enjoy it. 565 00:32:51,405 --> 00:32:54,645 It's like, you know who, I mean, if they didn't bother you, it wouldn't 566 00:32:54,645 --> 00:32:56,715 be one thing, but I know how it is. 567 00:32:56,745 --> 00:32:57,825 They do bother you. 568 00:32:57,825 --> 00:33:00,675 You know, they make, you know, all the time that you are not part 569 00:33:00,675 --> 00:33:02,504 of the group, you do not fit in. 570 00:33:02,835 --> 00:33:04,065 Um, and it it's crappy. 571 00:33:04,065 --> 00:33:06,825 So, you know, this happened in 19. 572 00:33:07,304 --> 00:33:11,324 Three, I think the, the murders and they were convicted in 1994, that 573 00:33:11,324 --> 00:33:14,264 would, that's not that many years after I graduated from high school. 574 00:33:14,264 --> 00:33:18,044 So it was probably around that same time, but it was, you know, I, I thought 575 00:33:18,044 --> 00:33:19,814 that really was a bummer for those guys. 576 00:33:19,814 --> 00:33:25,635 And so that's why there was a lot of support behind these guys, um, in, 577 00:33:25,645 --> 00:33:27,195 especially in the heavy metal community. 578 00:33:27,195 --> 00:33:29,774 Like I think Metallica allowed them to use like their music 579 00:33:29,774 --> 00:33:30,735 for free and the paradigm. 580 00:33:31,550 --> 00:33:32,480 Documentary. 581 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,180 I mean, there was a big following, like I had heard about west 582 00:33:35,180 --> 00:33:36,950 Memphis three for a long time. 583 00:33:36,950 --> 00:33:40,760 I mean, you know, because you've got, you know, once the misfits get 584 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,240 together and there's enough of them, then the misfits are the majority 585 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:45,530 and then shit kind of goes down. 586 00:33:45,530 --> 00:33:48,200 And that's what happened was that everybody who had felt like. 587 00:33:48,739 --> 00:33:51,739 An ever, you know, kind of banded together and said, no, we can't let this 588 00:33:51,739 --> 00:33:54,560 happen to these guys because this is a circumstance that we could have been 589 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,000 in, in the right, at the right time. 590 00:33:56,449 --> 00:33:58,219 But, um, that is my number. 591 00:33:58,219 --> 00:34:02,149 Number one was Damien Echols and man, some terrible, these guys look in, 592 00:34:02,209 --> 00:34:03,350 these guys were in jail for eight. 593 00:34:03,855 --> 00:34:06,225 Years, 18 years from being teenagers. 594 00:34:06,225 --> 00:34:09,945 So they grew up in jail, which is horrifying and terrible things happened 595 00:34:09,945 --> 00:34:11,054 to them while they were in jail. 596 00:34:11,054 --> 00:34:15,014 I mean, Damien Nichols, he was raped, you know, they were, it 597 00:34:15,014 --> 00:34:19,635 was there, there, you know, what happens to child killers in jail? 598 00:34:19,695 --> 00:34:23,295 You know, child molesters in jail, not good things, you know, I mean, they're. 599 00:34:24,109 --> 00:34:29,000 They're in particular, they're very much targeted, you know, so, and these guys 600 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,319 were teenagers, they were young, so I really doubt they could defend themselves. 601 00:34:33,319 --> 00:34:35,569 But, um, again, take a look at paradise loss. 602 00:34:35,569 --> 00:34:38,959 It's a really interesting, um, documentary for sure. 603 00:34:38,989 --> 00:34:41,540 And you can look at it in the pieces or you can look at it as a whole. 604 00:34:41,629 --> 00:34:43,699 There's some crazy characters in that show as well. 605 00:34:43,699 --> 00:34:47,209 It's, uh, you know, I kept thinking, Melissa, some of us was in Tennessee 606 00:34:47,209 --> 00:34:50,270 and Memphis is in Tennessee, but this is actually Arkansas, 607 00:34:50,299 --> 00:34:51,859 which is a different flavor. 608 00:34:52,415 --> 00:34:52,985 Uh, folk. 609 00:34:53,284 --> 00:34:56,764 So take a look, but that's my top three, Brittany, what's your number one. 610 00:34:57,365 --> 00:34:57,785 Okay. 611 00:34:57,785 --> 00:35:02,105 Brittney Sherman: So my number one, you could call number one, you 612 00:35:02,105 --> 00:35:04,865 could call number one through five. 613 00:35:04,895 --> 00:35:08,465 You could even call number one through 10 because my number 614 00:35:08,465 --> 00:35:11,585 one is the central park five. 615 00:35:12,705 --> 00:35:13,665 Sonia Meza-Leon: That's a good one. 616 00:35:14,234 --> 00:35:14,745 That is a good 617 00:35:14,745 --> 00:35:15,105 Brittney Sherman: one. 618 00:35:15,705 --> 00:35:25,484 The central park five are five teenage boys who were a accused 619 00:35:25,515 --> 00:35:27,345 of accused and convicted. 620 00:35:27,345 --> 00:35:32,955 I should say of assault, robbery, riot. 621 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,710 Attempted murder, rape and sexual abuse. 622 00:35:38,430 --> 00:35:42,810 And they ranged in the ages of 14 to 16. 623 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:51,180 And this is a, an event that took place on April 19th, 1989 in central park, 624 00:35:51,180 --> 00:35:58,530 New York, between 9:00 PM to 10:00 PM on a woman named Tricia Mellie. 625 00:35:59,220 --> 00:35:59,610 And. 626 00:36:00,555 --> 00:36:10,935 Uh, these young boys who, um, were just kinda hanging out were really, 627 00:36:10,995 --> 00:36:13,845 I mean, they're truly innocent kids. 628 00:36:14,715 --> 00:36:21,045 Truly, um, so much so that one of the boys, the youngest 629 00:36:21,045 --> 00:36:23,745 one still hadn't hit puberty. 630 00:36:24,195 --> 00:36:31,215 So his, uh, the crime of rape was clearly not possible for him. 631 00:36:31,905 --> 00:36:35,595 These boys were taken in for questioning that night. 632 00:36:36,195 --> 00:36:39,225 They were held without their parents. 633 00:36:39,975 --> 00:36:43,785 They were promised things like. 634 00:36:44,595 --> 00:36:51,915 Food drinks, the ability to go home in order in exchange for confession. 635 00:36:52,245 --> 00:36:56,145 So these immature young kids of horse. 636 00:36:57,915 --> 00:37:02,354 Which we all know, having seen plenty of documentaries of true 637 00:37:02,354 --> 00:37:07,214 crime series, listening to enough podcasts like this know that complying 638 00:37:07,544 --> 00:37:13,544 with, without a parent or legal representative is the worst possible 639 00:37:13,544 --> 00:37:15,194 situation for someone to be put in. 640 00:37:15,765 --> 00:37:21,015 And of course they, uh, their confessions were held up, taken 641 00:37:21,015 --> 00:37:25,004 to prison and are taken to court and they were sentenced to prison. 642 00:37:25,754 --> 00:37:26,145 So. 643 00:37:26,860 --> 00:37:32,230 The reason I say five, or there are up to 10 because that same 644 00:37:32,230 --> 00:37:36,460 night in central park, there were other events that took place. 645 00:37:36,790 --> 00:37:43,060 And there were actually five other teenagers that were indicted for. 646 00:37:43,625 --> 00:37:52,205 Uh, assault and attacks on other persons, but it's these five boys in 647 00:37:52,205 --> 00:37:57,335 particular that are referred to as the central park five that are, uh, 648 00:37:57,365 --> 00:38:05,705 they were the ones that were held and convicted of rape and sexual assault. 649 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,830 And, um, four were ultimately convicted. 650 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:16,440 One was, uh, convicted on a lesser charge, but it was 16. 651 00:38:16,470 --> 00:38:18,540 So he was tried as an adult. 652 00:38:19,290 --> 00:38:24,240 All five of them were charged or convicted and sentenced to up to 653 00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:31,440 15 years in prison and ultimately served between seven and eight years. 654 00:38:31,980 --> 00:38:33,420 They were natural. 655 00:38:34,470 --> 00:38:36,630 Uh, found not guilty. 656 00:38:37,319 --> 00:38:42,660 And, um, their convictions were vacated in 2002. 657 00:38:43,529 --> 00:38:48,839 It was an extremely, uh, uproarious event. 658 00:38:49,290 --> 00:38:55,020 I was too young to remember the event, but I can look back and read 659 00:38:55,020 --> 00:38:56,940 articles and watch footage of it. 660 00:38:57,330 --> 00:39:08,145 And there was, there was a, um, Uh, a cry out for justice against them because 661 00:39:08,175 --> 00:39:13,275 there was so much evidence that was incorrectly mounted against them, that 662 00:39:13,275 --> 00:39:16,245 they never had a shot at a fair trial. 663 00:39:16,665 --> 00:39:22,035 And it's, uh, there's a Netflix series and I, I want to call it 664 00:39:22,035 --> 00:39:27,645 a great Netflix series by Ava DuVernay called when they see us. 665 00:39:28,755 --> 00:39:30,495 But I hold on calling. 666 00:39:30,525 --> 00:39:31,005 Great. 667 00:39:31,035 --> 00:39:35,895 Not because it isn't, but because I had such a hard time watching it, I 668 00:39:35,895 --> 00:39:40,695 literally watched the first episode and the treatment of these innocent 669 00:39:41,175 --> 00:39:45,645 young, naive boys disturbed me so much. 670 00:39:46,365 --> 00:39:50,085 I could not bring myself to watch the rest of it. 671 00:39:50,445 --> 00:39:55,335 And I feel for the victim in this case too, because she was so badly 672 00:39:55,545 --> 00:39:57,795 battered and bruised and raped. 673 00:39:58,650 --> 00:40:01,710 She could not identify who attacked her. 674 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,480 So her assailant ultimately was never found. 675 00:40:06,900 --> 00:40:11,250 She's obviously the victim in this case, in addition to these kids, 676 00:40:11,730 --> 00:40:15,840 but she never got justice and these kids paid a price for something that 677 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,540 they never had anything to do with. 678 00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:21,300 And naive Lee admitted to committing. 679 00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:25,560 Just because they were looking for an out in the middle of 680 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,120 the night, trying to get home. 681 00:40:28,950 --> 00:40:29,640 Sonia Meza-Leon: That is awful. 682 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,370 I have been meaning to watch that show or that series. 683 00:40:32,730 --> 00:40:36,990 And, um, I know the subject matter is really tense and sensitive. 684 00:40:36,990 --> 00:40:38,339 So I've been putting it off. 685 00:40:38,339 --> 00:40:39,450 I have to be honest with you. 686 00:40:39,450 --> 00:40:39,810 I'm sure. 687 00:40:39,810 --> 00:40:40,290 It's awesome. 688 00:40:40,290 --> 00:40:40,919 I love her. 689 00:40:40,919 --> 00:40:42,480 I love the director, um, 690 00:40:43,799 --> 00:40:45,060 Brittney Sherman: because it is so tense. 691 00:40:45,915 --> 00:40:48,255 I, like I said, it made me so angry. 692 00:40:48,315 --> 00:40:49,425 I couldn't keep watching it. 693 00:40:49,455 --> 00:40:50,595 I needed to get back to it. 694 00:40:50,925 --> 00:40:55,275 I need to do it justice to finish watching it, but it really pulled at me. 695 00:40:55,275 --> 00:41:00,315 And really, it really got to me and upset me about the treatment 696 00:41:00,645 --> 00:41:02,235 that, that we see on screen. 697 00:41:02,235 --> 00:41:03,135 That is true to 698 00:41:03,135 --> 00:41:03,495 Sonia Meza-Leon: life. 699 00:41:03,945 --> 00:41:05,655 What, um, so what happened? 700 00:41:05,745 --> 00:41:07,065 What did, what happened with this guys? 701 00:41:07,065 --> 00:41:08,325 Did they like, let them go. 702 00:41:08,325 --> 00:41:09,015 I mean, what was the. 703 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,260 Brittney Sherman: So they, they all served their time, uh, 704 00:41:13,260 --> 00:41:14,970 between six and eight years. 705 00:41:15,180 --> 00:41:20,250 And then in 2002, they, uh, petitioned and succeeded in having 706 00:41:20,250 --> 00:41:22,350 their, their charges vacated. 707 00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:24,870 Sonia Meza-Leon: Great. 708 00:41:25,530 --> 00:41:26,010 Yes. 709 00:41:26,730 --> 00:41:27,270 That's such 710 00:41:27,270 --> 00:41:28,020 Brittney Sherman: bullshit. 711 00:41:28,410 --> 00:41:29,340 Oh, it, it, yeah, it is. 712 00:41:29,380 --> 00:41:31,770 It's just, it's, it's disgusting. 713 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:37,050 It's a horrible tragedy and miscarriage of the justice system. 714 00:41:39,795 --> 00:41:42,765 Sonia Meza-Leon: What's that, I'm sorry for suggesting this topic, by the way, 715 00:41:44,295 --> 00:41:46,005 Brittney Sherman: really started off on a downer. 716 00:41:46,065 --> 00:41:46,634 I know. 717 00:41:46,645 --> 00:41:47,505 Sonia Meza-Leon: I'm so sorry. 718 00:41:47,505 --> 00:41:50,445 I was thinking about it and was looking at my list and then I'm like, 719 00:41:51,165 --> 00:41:55,275 why don't I just Google, you know, wrongful convictions, the multitude. 720 00:41:56,030 --> 00:42:00,260 I was, I was, I was overwhelmed and I couldn't, I, it would take me 721 00:42:00,260 --> 00:42:01,880 weeks to read through all of them. 722 00:42:02,300 --> 00:42:06,020 Um, the bigger ones, you know, I mean, I think that the exonerations are 723 00:42:06,050 --> 00:42:11,090 going up, but you know, th the need for exoneration shouldn't happen either. 724 00:42:11,540 --> 00:42:14,840 Um, but man, you know, you're, you're going to choose the top three next. 725 00:42:14,870 --> 00:42:15,590 It's all you 726 00:42:16,670 --> 00:42:18,350 Brittney Sherman: I'll try and be a little more lighthearted. 727 00:42:19,220 --> 00:42:25,005 I w I will say, you know, to your point about exonerating, Going off and having 728 00:42:25,005 --> 00:42:29,265 a sentences vacated, you know, a lot of credit goes to the innocence project or 729 00:42:29,325 --> 00:42:32,295 projects who dedicates themselves to. 730 00:42:33,285 --> 00:42:39,585 Going out there taking on cases, pro bono for wrongly convicted felons and 731 00:42:39,795 --> 00:42:46,485 doing everything they can to return to trial, to overturn the cases based on 732 00:42:46,485 --> 00:42:55,515 evidence that was either missed or skipped over or just ignored at the time that. 733 00:42:56,585 --> 00:42:57,694 The convictions happened. 734 00:42:57,755 --> 00:42:58,985 And so they really deserve 735 00:42:58,985 --> 00:42:59,015 a 736 00:42:59,015 --> 00:42:59,525 Sonia Meza-Leon: lot of credit. 737 00:42:59,795 --> 00:43:03,365 Yeah, no, they think God, there are people out there who are supporting those 738 00:43:03,365 --> 00:43:07,715 causes and you know, it's again, you know, it's, there's so many of them, so 739 00:43:07,715 --> 00:43:10,625 it's so hard to get their voices heard, but I'm thankful that there's something 740 00:43:10,625 --> 00:43:12,605 in place to, to help these folks. 741 00:43:12,935 --> 00:43:17,225 Um, but the goal would be to reduce this number percentage greatly. 742 00:43:17,285 --> 00:43:19,325 You know, I don't think that 10% is acceptable. 743 00:43:20,085 --> 00:43:23,404 Brittney Sherman: It's a terrible amount is not acceptable. 744 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:25,200 Sonia Meza-Leon: Yep. 745 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:26,430 All right. 746 00:43:26,430 --> 00:43:27,450 Scarlet as well. 747 00:43:27,660 --> 00:43:31,230 There's our, uh, our, our top three for this week. 748 00:43:31,259 --> 00:43:34,140 So our top three wrongful convictions. 749 00:43:34,650 --> 00:43:37,620 Brittney Sherman: Um, after that, I need to, I need to cool down a little bit. 750 00:43:37,890 --> 00:43:38,700 I know 751 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:39,900 Sonia Meza-Leon: I'm all right. 752 00:43:40,380 --> 00:43:41,070 I know. 753 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:41,790 All right. 754 00:43:42,060 --> 00:43:43,080 Thanks, Carlitos. 755 00:43:44,490 --> 00:43:45,180 Brittney Sherman: Deep killing it. 756 00:43:55,694 --> 00:44:00,555 Nana check out a couple other podcasters that support us, and 757 00:44:00,555 --> 00:44:02,654 we want to give them some support. 758 00:44:07,755 --> 00:44:10,185 Sonia Meza-Leon: Hey, fellow Scarlet, true crime listeners. 759 00:44:10,605 --> 00:44:16,154 I'm CC the host of a new true crime podcast, sooner state, true crime as a 760 00:44:16,154 --> 00:44:20,265 born and bred Oki I'll cover cases based in my wonderful home state of Oklahoma. 761 00:44:21,315 --> 00:44:24,315 The term sooner actually refers to tutors in the land run. 762 00:44:24,765 --> 00:44:26,535 My state's very first true crime. 763 00:44:27,255 --> 00:44:30,855 New episodes are released twice a month in apple podcasts and most 764 00:44:30,855 --> 00:44:36,165 podcasts ups or visit our website, anchor.fm/crime state to listen now. 765 00:44:36,855 --> 00:44:42,645 So come away with me to my crime state on the sooner state true crime podcast. 766 00:44:43,305 --> 00:44:45,045 And please stay sooner safe out there. 767 00:44:45,045 --> 00:44:45,465 Y'all. 768 00:44:51,130 --> 00:44:52,029 Hi everyone. 769 00:44:52,330 --> 00:44:54,700 I'm Ariel Cooksey, host of malice. 770 00:44:55,029 --> 00:44:59,560 When violent acts occur, we tend to think the predators are monsters. 771 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,690 Surely no human could do such things, but if we're honest, only 772 00:45:04,690 --> 00:45:06,759 humans commit malicious crime. 773 00:45:07,300 --> 00:45:11,320 And if you're like me, you want to know why to find out. 774 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:13,270 Join me at malice grabber. 775 00:45:13,270 --> 00:45:15,460 You listen to podcasts by. 776 00:45:18,995 --> 00:45:20,495 Hey, y'all I'm Brandon Hall. 777 00:45:21,125 --> 00:45:24,215 I'm one of the hosts of music city, nine 11, a podcast about the good, 778 00:45:24,395 --> 00:45:27,185 the bad, and the dark side of nine 11. 779 00:45:27,185 --> 00:45:30,395 Dispatching me and my co-hosts are 9 1 1 dispatchers. 780 00:45:30,395 --> 00:45:35,795 With over 60 years of experience, join us as we play 9 1 1 calls and discuss this. 781 00:45:36,899 --> 00:45:41,729 Oh, did I mention that we get dark nine 11? 782 00:45:41,759 --> 00:45:42,870 What's your emergency? 783 00:46:15,665 --> 00:46:20,615 you can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at music city nine 11, and we're 784 00:46:20,615 --> 00:46:22,595 downloadable on every podcast platform. 785 00:46:24,820 --> 00:46:27,640 Brittney Sherman: We want to give a shout out to the pod all 786 00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:33,310 the time podcast network that we Scarlet TCP are proud members of 787 00:46:34,060 --> 00:46:38,290 Sonia Meza-Leon: other members of the pod, all the time podcast network, our creative 788 00:46:38,290 --> 00:46:44,830 intuitive, another digital citizen history of a haunting round and round the podcast. 789 00:46:45,190 --> 00:46:50,950 Real AKA truth podcast, ruck up podcast, random unnamed podcast. 790 00:46:51,430 --> 00:46:52,210 Surburban. 791 00:46:53,355 --> 00:46:56,835 Three peas in a podcast, Ross sex podcast. 792 00:46:57,194 --> 00:46:59,505 I think we're doing it podcast. 793 00:46:59,714 --> 00:47:02,444 Brittney Sherman: So if you like what you're hearing from Scarlet TCP, check 794 00:47:02,444 --> 00:47:08,265 out these other shows that members of the pod all the time podcast network.