PART 2

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 57 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Thanks Richard. You know how we said we're learning from each other during this process. Oh, that's amazing for me. I absolutely love that. First of all, I want to read Saga.

[00:00:18] I want you to check that out. But lying cat, when you described that as a, as a voice, I really got this powerful auditory experience of hearing that in a kind of Eartha Kitt voice.

[00:00:31] It's kind of like lying cat. See, I'm very skilled at my Eartha Kitt impression.

[00:00:37] Richard: If I close my eyes, I can, I can see her. Um, but this is another example of treating it lightly, having a bit of fun with it rather than I'm a terrible person for having these thoughts. It's just thinking that's all this is. It's just thinking.

[00:00:56] Ross: Peasoopers, it's Part 3B of our mini series, the part you've been waiting for. it's my collaboration with Dr. Richard McKinnon from Work Life Psych, Where we delve into all things related to psychological flexibility and act. We're aiming to show you how relevant it is. Not only to your work life, but to your whole life.

[00:01:15] In Part 3B, we get practical with cognitive diffusion. Sharing techniques and insights. And we cover factory conveyor belts, sushi restaurants, tiresome cousins, Being a boss driver, and talking about the role of the caution calculator.

[00:01:32] We share really practical techniques and skills that you can try right now, to allow you to relate differently to your thoughts, freeing up your energy and attention to enable you to move forward to what matters in life.

[00:01:43] Now, for those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, Hi! Hola! [00:02:00] Welcome to the community. We're an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun.

[00:02:09] Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science.

[00:02:15] Let's take a scoot over to the news desk, thanks to everyone who listened, shared, talked about, and rated our last episode, which was part 3a, an Introduction to Cognitive Diffusion. It really is worth listening to that one before you dive into this one. peace super is with your help, we're reaching more people with stuff that could be useful and help folks in their lives, both in and outside of work.

[00:02:37] so for now, get a brew on and have a listen to part three B of my collaboration with Dr. Richard McKinnon.

[00:02:49] So let me get practical. Sometimes I will just invite people to write down their everyday unhelpful thoughts. Just write them down on a piece of paper. Let me give you some examples from me. So some of my Every day, unhelpful thoughts that are still with me are, I'm not clever enough. I'm going to be discovered.

[00:03:12] And I don't mean in like an x factor way. I mean like, I'm going to be discovered for the fraud and the charlatan that I am. will people think of me? That's another one that infuses every part of my life. I was just saying to Richard earlier, I've joined a new gym. And I don't feel that confident entering that environment.

[00:03:36] I feel I'm looking at these very fit Spanish men and women and thinking, Oh my God, what must they be thinking of me? it really helps me play with these thoughts. So writing them down. So you might want to just try that and Looking at them out there on the page can help us start to get that distance between us and those unhelpful [00:04:00] thoughts.

[00:04:01] And sometimes people will say to me, Oh, you've got me to write them down and they feel even more concrete than they did. Thanks, mate. And in response to that, I don't know how, if you've ever had that sort of, uh, response, Richard, but I would say, well, well, stick with it. Stick with it if you're willing to.

[00:04:19] Let's just sit with them a bit longer and maybe try some of these other techniques I'm going to share. Because it could be just the mind playing more tricks. I don't know how you, if you've come across that before Richard.

[00:04:30] Richard: this is probably a good, a good point to drop in right now, which is, I don't think there's one size fits all solution when it comes to diffusion skills. And depending on who you are as a person, some of these resonate with you. More than others, but let's remember what we said earlier Diffusion is not about getting rid of this stuff.

[00:04:48] We don't like it'll still be there We're not paying as much attention to it the writing it down Where I've done that with groups, it, it seems to work more powerfully when people don't put thought into it, but write it verbatim. So don't write about the thought, write the thought, the words, you know, I'm not good enough, rather than, that's a self critical thought.

[00:05:12] No, I'm not good enough is something you can then use in the other exercises

[00:05:18] Ross: yeah, lovely. And also some people say when I see it out there on the page it looks a bit daft. Or it looks a bit humorous. Looks a bit silly. And sometimes people will say it's almost like it uses juvenile language. And at that point I'd ask people, just reflect how long have these thoughts been around?

[00:05:40] And it's not universal, but typically some people will say, Oh, since I was a kid. And at that point, it's just useful to say, well, Is it time that we could think about changing our relationship with that thought? Because it seems to be limiting you now in some way. And a couple more [00:06:00] actually. I'm going to save one till the end I think. But I'm going to share with you another one that I typically share in group situations. And that's a playful nickname for the mind. Now, listen to those words, a playful, we're not looking to criticise our minds saying, oh you're terrible, you're so bloomin annoying, you're a dreadful piece of work.

[00:06:23] The reason we're saying a playful nickname for the mind is because, as I said earlier, are doing exactly what they evolved to do, keeping us safe. So they're not getting it entirely right. They're doing what they were designed and evolved to do. So let me give you an example, a playful nickname from my mind.

[00:06:44] Remember, I think I told you in one of the previous episodes that I'm a catastrophizer. I come from a long line of catastrophizers and I can escalate a minor incident to utter catastrophe in nanoseconds, and I do. So I call my mind the head of drama. Why do I give it that nickname? Well, it's because if I can notice my mind kind of in flight, going down this route of, Oh my God, look what's going to happen.

[00:07:14] If I can catch it, In that moment, I can say to myself, Oh, there you are again, head of drama. And that kind of gives me that space and frees me up to do some other stuff. And I'll give you another example. My dear friend and colleague, Paul Flexman, he calls his mind the caution calculator.

[00:07:34] Richard: Mm.

[00:07:35] Ross: And the way he would typically illustrate that, and I do have permission to do this, probably I'm slightly more dramatic than he is. No shit. Um, but he would say the caution calculator. Say he wants to take his wife to the theater. A beautiful thing to do for your spouse. So he's on his laptop looking for tickets and he thinks, ah, we could go for a meal as well.

[00:07:59] [00:08:00] And wouldn't that be a lovely whole evening experience? And then his caution calculator kicks in. And I'll keep this brief but, what if we're late into town and the service is slow in the restaurant and then we have to wolf down our food then run to the theatre and they've already closed the doors or they let us in and everyone looks round and goes, Shhh, and we have a big row.

[00:08:21] That's what his mind is throwing up. And what does he do next? It's really important to think what we do next when we're gripped by these thoughts. What does he do next? He steps away from the laptop and doesn't book anything because his caution calculator has taken control. So that's why we both really feel the importance of this part of the hexaflex is getting that distance between That unhelpful content our minds produce can really free us up, like Richard said, our energy and our attention to pursue what really matters and is meaningful to us.

[00:09:02] Beautiful.

[00:09:04] Richard: one of them is, I hope everyone got it was we can be really playful and creative when it comes to diffusion. And I think a lot of my clients value that. Yes. If you imagine coaching to be me sitting opposite a middle aged man in a suit in a bank. Okay. Yes, that could happen, but I'm just as likely to be working with someone from a creative studio.

[00:09:30] Yeah. who, who spends their day creating visual effects for a movie. And so when we are giving people license to be creative in how they label their mind or how they visualize their thoughts, it's giving them a sense of agency. It's giving them like, well, this works for me. I don't have to follow the rules for somebody else.

[00:09:53] And I find that works really, really, really nicely. There's a couple of things that. I do, picked up [00:10:00] in training courses over the years. One of which anyone who's familiar with acting any way will be familiar with, which is the visualization of your thoughts, visualizing thoughts as things. So to return to my earlier point, one, exercise I do is to visualize yourself in a factory. You're on the production line and there's this, conveyor belt in front of you with all your thoughts taking different forms, shapes, colors, whatever it might be. The temptation is to, to do something to each one. But in fact, if you keep your hands back, you can just observe them going past you. And of course, if you stop the conveyor belt, you'll cause havoc in the rest of the machinery. And everything will be about that. But if you just let it run, Lo and behold, the thoughts move past you. Then you can move on to labeling them, not just observing them, but actually saying, what, what kind of a thought is that? And I think what's important here is not the evaluative approach. It's a good thought, it's a bad thought, it's a nice thought.

[00:11:09] No, but that's a thought about the past. So that's just a memory. Well, that's a thought about the future. It's quite quite firm. I think that's a prediction. Right? So instead of, is it true or not? Is it nice or not? We're saying, well, what kind of category is that? And with practice, we're able to say, hold on, that's, that's upsetting, but that's just a memory or that's worrying, but it's a prediction.

[00:11:35] Okay. So what will I do? Given that's just a prediction. And there's a lovely image, although this doesn't travel very well, but there's a lovely image of the conveyor belt sushi restaurant, right? So where you're sitting at the conveyor belt, and the sushi plates are going around. And I love this for a couple of reasons.

[00:11:57] One, it's bad form [00:12:00] in a sushi restaurant to just take every plate that comes your way. Unless you're a ravenous. Well, what do we do? No, we look at it and ask ourselves, do I want that? And if it's something that we really like, we want it in that moment, we take the plate, consume it. If we don't want it, what do we do?

[00:12:19] Well, we don't knock it off the conveyor belt. We just let it go and it goes off. Maybe someone else will take it. Maybe no one will. And this is the next reason I really like this. The conveyor belt is circular. The thought will come back. Remember, diffusion isn't about getting rid of them. If it's something like self criticism, it's definitely going to reappear.

[00:12:42] But all you need to do is just keep your hands off the conveyor belt and it will pass by again. The third and final reason I love this image is that it's really bad form. So let's imagine we've got these plates coming towards us and all we can see is plate after plate of sea urchin. Like, I hate sea urchin.

[00:13:02] I don't want sea urchin. Instead of letting it go past, it's very bad form to lean across, you know, tap the chef on the shoulder while they're preparing this and say, Stop making sea urchin. Because you're not the only person who's going to be taking from this. So you can't dictate to the creator what they create.

[00:13:23] No more than we can dictate to our mind, Stop giving me these memories. I don't want these memories. It doesn't work that way. We're expanding energy, we're upsetting ourselves, we're doing something that's not going to give us a good result. So it boils down to watching, observing, letting it pass if we don't want it, using it if we do want it.

[00:13:44] That's a helpful thought, that's an idea, that's a, that's a reminder. They're always helpful. And, and otherwise, we just keep ourselves to ourselves and acknowledge we can't control the world. The conveyor belt and we can't control what appears on it. We can only control what [00:14:00] we do when we spot that stuff.

[00:14:03] So that's the, the sushi conveyor belt restaurant metaphor expanded upon.

[00:14:11] Ross: that's the first time I've heard you present it in that form, Richard, and I bloody love it.

[00:14:17] Richard: Not everyone likes sushi. Not everyone likes those restaurants, but maybe there's another version we can come up with, but I think it works on a few levels.

[00:14:26] Ross: it speaks to me so powerfully. I love it.

[00:14:30] Richard: One final one I'll throw into the mix

[00:14:33] for a scenario. So. Visualizing your thoughts, labeling your thoughts, maybe taking the production line one a bit further and saying, well, look, if it had to go into a department, which department would this thought go in? Oh, the department of memories or the department of predictions, right?

[00:14:51] That's learning how to sort and label our mental content. But some of this stuff is a bit raw. Some of the stuff our mind gives us stings, you know, and is repetitive. So an example would be the self criticism or judgment. You know, the stuff that goes right to the heart of us. The, I'm not good enough, I'm not successful enough, I'm not a good parent.

[00:15:17] You know, those kinds of thoughts. So one thing that we can do is see them for what they are, which is repetitive. So imagine if you were at a big family gathering and your very boring cousin cornered you and started telling you in great detail about that summer holiday they had on the yacht in Greece.

[00:15:39] Again, you do like this cousin, so you're not going to tell them to stop, and you're not just going to walk off. You can smile politely, but up here, he says, tapping his head, Oh, I've heard this before. I don't really need to pay attention. And so it is with some of the stuff our mind gives us about us.[00:16:00]

[00:16:00] You're no good. You'll never be successful. You're not a good manager. Yeah, I've heard this before, though, and it didn't help me. The last time, here's the story about success. Here's the I'm not good enough story. And that's a very different relationship to sitting with it, somehow processing it, or arguing with it, all of which takes us away from the present moment.

[00:16:23] Instead, it's just a story that pops up. And in fact, I don't have to go through the whole story. I'm not getting rid of it, I'm not fighting it, but I tell you what, I'm not giving it any more of my limited attention. I'm going to do something in this moment. And it's not going to be because of that story.

[00:16:42] It's just a story. And in my experience, people, when it's about self, find that really useful. Because all you need to remember is we're telling ourselves stories constantly. If you think about it.

[00:16:57] Ross: Yeah. Lovely. And, firstly, I'm flabbergasted that we're actually related, Richard. I never knew that. That's a new one, that we have the same cousin. that's that's my first observation. That's a new observation. We'll say no more. I don't want to go into any details, but, um, the other one is I recognize sort of patterns or themes of thoughts as well.

[00:17:20] And I know this from people I work with, those thoughts around procrastination.

[00:17:24] Richard: Hmm.

[00:17:25] Ross: Oh, Ross. Yeah. You could start that next year. Or, Oh, you've missed. This is extreme because we're recording this at the end of January, 2024. But, um, Oh, I've missed the New Year's resolution slot, so I better leave it till next year.

[00:17:41] That's an extreme version, but typically we'll say, Oh, I'll start next week when I'm feeling a bit better. Or I'll start in March when I know the weather will be better. So there's a big procrastination theme that can pop up for lots

[00:17:55] Richard: Absolutely.

[00:17:57] Ross: And there's another one that pops up quite a lot is [00:18:00] Whenever I'm talking about self care with a group and looking after themselves, taking those small moments for themselves to either recharge their batteries or do something that has meaning for them, and there's lots of stories pop up, you're being selfish, you've got other people to look after, you've got other work to do, it's always all about you, you, you, you, you.

[00:18:21] Just crack on. And that, that's, that's Comes up time and time again in people I work with. This feeling that kind of self care is a bit weak, or you're a bit soft lad.

[00:18:34] Richard: And it comes full circle to this, um, how we treat ourselves about these thoughts. If we buy into them, we can feel very bad about ourselves. If we acknowledge our humanity, and everyone has thoughts they don't like, everyone experiences stuff like this, we're expressing a form of self compassion, which is much more helpful. So instead of, I should be on my game 24 7, I should be sharp as a tack, I should be maximum. Productive, professional, everyone has off days, everyone has self doubt. What's possible in this moment rather than organs blazing? And your point about procrastination really fired me up there because it's a huge topic in coaching.

[00:19:18] It's one that I work with a lot. And the way to deal with procrastination is not shouting at someone, just make a start. It's what is the thing you're trying to avoid? What's the thought about this that is giving you permission to avoid this? So you're trying to avoid some discomfort and you're buying into a story that tomorrow is a better day. We can just operate in the mental space first, before we talk about techniques to organize yourself or prioritize. But at the very heart of it, you've noticed something about this task that you really don't like. It fills you with dread, and you're agreeing [00:20:00] with the stuff your mind is giving you about delay is not a problem.

[00:20:03] You're buying into that. Even though you're a smart person and you know that delay is not going to help this at all. In fact, it could make it worse. So I really just make that point to demonstrate the generalizability of diffusion skills. They can help us in so many of the everyday challenges that we face.

[00:20:24] The principle is to use your creativity to see the thought as a thing rather than I am the thought. And the distance you can get from that and the whatever way you choose to do it, observe that thought enables you to free yourself up from, as we said, the grabby sticky nature of some of these thoughts and just do more of this stuff that you really want to do.

[00:20:50] Ross: Absolutely, I think you've summarized it beautifully there, and I'm tempted. I don't know whether now is the right moment, but I'm tempted to introduce the passengers on the

[00:20:59] bus.

[00:21:00] Richard: that. Let's do it.

[00:21:01] Ross: a metaphor that often lends quite well in groups and individuals, but let me have a go at presenting it to you.

[00:21:10] So, the idea is folks that you are the driver of your bus of life and the moment you sit in that seat and turn on the ignition and start moving, there's lots of chatter starts up behind you and those, that chatter, the passengers on our bus, we say they're like our thoughts. And they're clever, these passengers.

[00:21:30] They know what we're thinking. Before we even take any action, they know what we're thinking. So, let me try and bring it to life a bit more. So, we're moving along in our bus. Hopefully, we can go in a direction that has meaning for us, that has some importance and significance for us, so, we're moving along. And we're also thinking of doing something new in our life. Taking a new avenue. Maybe taking a right turn in our bus. And as I'm trundling along, some of the [00:22:00] passengers are fairly mundane. They're saying to me, Oh, when you go to the supermarket, remember we need to get bread and milk. And, oh, look, we've just passed the Mercadona there. So it's just a bit of a running commentary about what's happening or thoughts that are popping into my head. Other passengers are saying, Hey Ross, love being on your bus, we think you're great. And, we can see you're thinking of doing something a bit different in your life.

[00:22:26] Maybe you're starting to take a small step towards a new habit. And, we think, go for it. We think you've got all the skills and the strengths needed, and we know it's going to end up in a great place for you. So, mirror, signal, maneuver, bonnie lad. Just go for it. And then there's some other passengers who are like, Ross, these seats are really uncomfortable on your bus.

[00:22:48] When was it built? It's really old fashioned. And we can see you're thinking of taking this new avenue, doing this new thing in your life. Well really? Because what we know, and you know deep down if you really think about it, is what we know is that you like going on that circular route round and round the city.

[00:23:09] Where you feel really safe and everything's familiar. You might see other people taking new avenues, but nah, that's not for you. Just keep going round and round. You know, deep down that's where you feel most comfortable and safe. And then finally, there are some other passengers who are just awful.

[00:23:29] They're saying, Ross, have you got a license for this vehicle? Because you're such a shit driver. You're the worst I've ever experienced on this whole route in my whole lifetime of taking buses. You're the worst. And we can see you're thinking of taking this right turn. Well, really, honestly, what are you thinking of?

[00:23:50] Because we know what's going to happen. We know there's going to be a series of unfortunate events ending in utter disaster. Otter catastrophe. So just pull over. [00:24:00] In fact, just pull over. You're not even worthy to drive this bus. Just pull over and stop. And that folks is my attempt at presenting this metaphor of the passengers on the bus, which for me brings to life what it can be like having all these thoughts or passengers inside our heads, but also really represents the human condition

[00:24:24] Richard: is a great metaphor and, and I've seen it, you know, really resonate with people over the years. And of course, if you are driving a bus, the thing that's, you know, going to cause you problems is if you try and get rid of passengers by throwing them off the bus, you can't do that. You're a bus driver. And of course, the more time you spend looking in the rear view mirror and arguing with them, the less time you are focused on the task at hand, which is safely driving a bus. So the more time we get caught up with the nonsense our mind gives us, the less we're paying attention to what's right in front of us that we would ideally like to be doing. So that struggle, and I'd say everyone listening or watching has been on a bus at some time. So there's, there's a very, um, human element to this.

[00:25:16] We know what it's like to be a passenger. We know what it's like to have people distract us. We know what it's like to hear conflicting messages from different people, but when it's coming from inside, it just seems that more powerful. is not to argue with them. the answer is not to do with each one says, but instead to focus on where do I want to get to and let me focus on driving rather than keeping all of these things happy.

[00:25:45] I really like it. It's a, it's a really nice metaphor.

[00:25:48] Ross: Yeah. And I just wanna go back to that tendency. 'cause sometimes when I present this to people, they say, well, I've got my strategy. I know how I deal with this. I throw all the passengers off, is just exactly [00:26:00] as you said.

[00:26:00] Richard: Yep.

[00:26:01] Ross: And the way I would respond to that is, well, that might work in the short term.

[00:26:07] You might be able to to throw them off the bus, but. The evidence suggests that what they do in metaphorical terms is they put on a false nose and some bushy eyebrows, run down the road and hail the bus a few stops down and they get back on the bus and wreak more havoc because they kind of got renewed vigor now they've been thrown off the bus.

[00:26:30] So that's what can tend to happen.

[00:26:33] Richard: So hopefully we're making the point here that practicing these diffusion skills allows you to be super creative. As long as you work within these principles of not struggling, not removing thoughts, and it frees you up to do more of the stuff that matters. Ross, I'd love to know how you practice it. What are the techniques you bring to life when you notice that it's helpful?

[00:26:58] Ross: I think because I train a lot of other people and coach a lot of people in these concepts that I'm living them every day. And sometimes those thoughts, I don't catch them. And sometimes I notice they're starting to impact on me. So there's always a good place to start. You could even use that experience of a thought that's not particularly helpful as a prompt to go, Ah, I'm onto you.

[00:27:24] So I like kind of thinking about them in flight. Another technique I love, let me give you an example, is say I've got a thought of I'm not clever enough, which comes up a lot for me, I'm not clever enough. If I notice that thought popping up as it does, I can put a phrase in front of it. I can put a phrase in front of it and people might like to try this at home.

[00:27:50] I'm having the thought that I'm not clever enough. So you see what I'm doing, I'm just adding that phrase, I'm having the thought that I'm not clever [00:28:00] enough. And just replaying that in my head, just, just like a weight lifted off me. Personally, if I just practice this, It, it just, it's, you know, you said it was like a, a menu of different techniques.

[00:28:13] This is one that really resonates for me and other techniques will resonate with other people, but this one really does resonate with me and lifts that weight of that thought. And you could even take it a step further and say, I noticed that I'm having the thought that I'm not clever enough. And that even makes me smile because it feels like I'm actually.

[00:28:36] getting more distance from that thought just by using language. So that's, that's one of my personal go to techniques. Richard, how about you?

[00:28:48] Richard: So again, I'm in that space of. training and sharing these, all the time and I try and start as simply as possible. But you know, if you've been doing something for a long time, you've got your own shortcuts or code words. So I've got a particularly geeky one that probably won't surprise anyone who knows me, but there's a wonderful, wonderful, I should call it a graphic novel, but it's, it's a comic, uh, series that would, that really, Blew me away when I first read it.

[00:29:16] It's called Saga by Brian K. Vaughan and Fiona Staples. Beautifully illustrated, beautiful story, incredible depth to it, but there is a character in it that is a large panther like cat and all it can do is spot when one of the other characters is lying and it just says lying. And I've internalized that cat so that instead of maybe visualizing thoughts, or when I notice I'm getting thought up, I just go, um, thinking, that's just thinking.

[00:29:53] In what I imagine the cat's voice is. And it, yeah, that's just thinking, hold on, let me get back to [00:30:00] practicalities or what I was planning to do. And one particular example that I use is with my predisposition to be wound up by other people in, in public, um, uh, judging, I'm judging. You know, inside, I don't say that out loud, but I say it to myself, those thoughts are judging or deciding about other people when I don't know the whole story.

[00:30:24] I don't know why they're doing what they're doing. I'm judging. And that, that really frees me up to explore the situation I'm in with lots and lots of different perspectives and not be so, so judgy. So that, that's how I do it. And it's the same thing of just, breaking that Um very powerful stream of thoughts that I might get drowned in and you go.

[00:30:47] No, that's just thinking that's all you're doing You're just thinking and I found over over time that works really really well for me But I don't think that's one that's going to necessarily translate around the globe The lying cat unless you were also a comics fan, but it can be as simple as a as a as an image like that

[00:31:07] Ross: Thanks Richard. You know how we said we're learning from each other during this process. Oh, that's amazing for me. I absolutely love that. First of all, I want to read Saga.

[00:31:18] I want you to check that out. But lying Cat, when you described that as a, as a voice, I really got this powerful auditory experience of hearing that in a kind of Eartha Kitt voice.

[00:31:31] It's kind of like lying Cat. See, I'm very skilled at my Eartha Kitt impression.

[00:31:38] Richard: If I close my eyes, I can, I can see her. Um, but this is another example of treating it lightly, having a bit of fun with it rather than I'm a terrible person for having these thoughts. It's just thinking that's all this is. It's just thinking. And I always visualize that cat. It always just pops [00:32:00] into my mind.

[00:32:01] And, it can be something as simple as that, that can allow me to pivot. in this situation and approach it completely differently. But I will say we're sharing these examples not because we're perfect, not because we are totally skilled operators in life, but because we know how to do it and it can be useful to share how you actually bring it to life.

[00:32:25] That doesn't mean I never get caught up in thoughts. That doesn't mean you never have memories you don't like and spend too much time with them. But we are saying that once you practice them, it's less likely. That you're unhelpfully getting grabbed and stuck in this mental content, that isn't so nice.

[00:32:44] There's no perfection here, it's just working at it once you, you have the skill. So maybe, shall we cover off a few brief pointers on what people could do from today, immediately after this, this episode.

[00:33:00] Ross: so see if you can try and adopt the position of just noticing your mind and what it's up to. Because quite often these thoughts do their work, as Paul would say, my colleague Paul, they do a job on us at a level below our conscious level. And, and just by shining a light on them, we can then give ourselves that.

[00:33:22] space and choice to decide whether we want to get tangled up in that or whether we want to pursue something that's more helpful in that moment, in that context. So, for me, writing them down, as I've said, just seeing them out there on the page can be really powerful. And you might find that once you start writing down some of those thoughts, the pen just keeps going. And don't be alarmed if that happens, because that's kind of normal. And the other one I'd come back to is adding that phrase, I'm having the thought that, if you notice one of your everyday recurring unhelpful thoughts. How about you [00:34:00] Richard, what would you recommend?

[00:34:01] Richard: I mean, writing is very powerful and I'm, I'm a strong advocate of, um, keeping things simple. And if it fits on a post it note, all the better. So, writing, a thought is just a thought. I'm putting that on a few post it notes where you're going to see them. Your monitor, your fridge, your bathroom mirror, to remind you, Oh yeah, I'm always thinking.

[00:34:22] But a thought is just a thought. That can work really, really well. And remembering that when you are practicing your mindful awareness, your present, moment presence, that you will notice thoughts. Learning that the noticing can be followed by a labeling of the thought, not any interference with the thought, and then followed by an intentional action.

[00:34:48] So I notice this thought I don't like, but But now I'm going to pick up the phone and make that phone call I wanted to make. Or I noticed that thought of self doubt and I'm going to put my hand up and ask the question. All right, so we don't have to get rid of the thought, we notice it, label it, and do the thing anyway.

[00:35:08] And this is all about freeing ourselves up to explore more options, not necessarily responding to each of these thoughts.

[00:35:16] Ross: Beautiful, so hopefully that's resonated with folks out there and you might want to have a go at some of these techniques. We'll make sure we. We do a, like a nice summary of these techniques for you to access on the website.

[00:35:34] Richard: I often get asked, when do you expect me to do this? You know, you know, the, the, that's all very well, but I'm a senior something with a busy life So here's the thing, practicing these works really well, little and often. I'm not suggesting anyone sits for an hour at a time visualizing or labeling thoughts.

[00:35:57] And so the way I put it to my clients [00:36:00] is to look for the moments in between. And what I mean by that is, the moments when you're not doing anything else, you're waiting for a call to start. You're the only one on your team's call, staring at your own image on the screen. You're waiting for the kettle to boil to make your cup of tea.

[00:36:17] You're waiting on a train, a bus, a metro. You're waiting for the news to start on TV. There's those moments in between where you could just pause, Notice what your mind is giving you. and label it. See what the thoughts are. And often you'll notice, oh, that's nonsense, or that's quite pleasant, or, hmm, interesting that I'm saying that to myself.

[00:36:43] But the more you practice this, the more you will have developed this muscle rather than needing it in the moment. We need to practice this when We're feeling good when we're not constrained so that we have the skill when it's going to be really, really helpful to us. So no need to block out hours a moment at a time.

[00:37:06] And I think that's, I'm answering that unasked question because it's asked so frequently.

[00:37:10] Ross: Lovely. So I wonder if we just give a teaser, Richard. What are we going to cover next time?

[00:37:19] Richard: Next time we're going to look at values and I don't want to spoil it for everyone, but why are we looking at values in this order? Well, if we're practicing diffusion. If we're not letting some quite volatile thoughts or emotions dictate our behavior, if we're not doing that, what can we use to guide our behavior?

[00:37:43] And that's how we frame values, these qualities we want to bring to life, these direction giving beliefs. so first of all, we need to figure out what our values are and then learn how to make use of them. And that's what we're going to do, uh, next time around, [00:38:00] explore how to clarify and act on these values.

[00:38:03] Ross: Beautiful. I can't wait. I'm on the edge of my seat already.

[00:38:06] Richard: Looking forward to it. So in terms of this episode, You'll be able to find all the resources we've mentioned and more that we haven't. We're going to signpost you to lots of other stuff on the website for this series, and you can find that at worklifesac. com forward slash psychological flexibility.

[00:38:25] Please get in touch with your feedback about what we've been discussing today. We'd love to know, is it making sense? Are you able to put it into practice? Have we fluffed any of this? Any and all feedback is really, really welcome, especially if you have your own examples. If you have your own ways of doing this that work for you, we can all learn from each other.

[00:38:45] So that would be really, really nice. You can send us an email. You can email me, podcast at worklifepsych. com. You could email Ross. ross. peoplesoup at gmail. com. It doesn't matter who you email, we'll both discuss it and we'll reflect it in a future episode. So please get in touch and let us know what you think.

[00:39:06] But for now, thank you so much for listening or watching. Ross, I'll see you next time.

[00:39:11] Ross: Yeah. Thanks so much, everybody. Bye for now.

[00:39:13] auditory experience of hearing that in a kind of Eartha Kitt voice.

[00:39:20] It's kind of like lying Cat. See, I'm very skilled at my Eartha Kitt impression.

[00:39:27] Richard: If I close my eyes, I can, I can see her. Um, but this is another example of treating it lightly, having a bit of fun with it rather than I'm a terrible person for having these thoughts. It's just thinking that's all this is. It's just thinking.