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Welcome to podcast answers, the show where I answer your podcasting questions and help

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you grow your podcast along the way.

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Thanks for hanging out with me today.

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Today we are going to have an excellent episode.

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We are talking today with Dave Jones.

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Dave is one of the people who run podcast index and alternative index to Apple's podcast

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index.

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And today we're going to get into some stuff about why the index was started and what the

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index offers.

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But then more than that, the podcast namespace, bringing new things to podcasting.

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It's exciting guys.

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And if you've not heard of podcast index, I just can't wait to get into this conversation

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with Dave.

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So without further ado, let's go.

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All right, with me today, I have Dave Jones of the podcast index.

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Dave, welcome to the show.

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Hey, Andy.

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I appreciate you having me.

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Thanks, man.

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So we've known, I say that in quotes, know in each other for a little while.

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I've never physically met you in person, but we've worked, you know, I've done a lot of

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stuff with the namespace and trying to get my feeds compliant.

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And so I've been working with the namespace quite a while, but if, can you just introduce

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yourself a little bit first and then we can go into the namespace and the podcast index,

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what's your name?

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I'm David Jones.

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I'm a podcasting and podcasting.

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Yeah, Dave Jones have been around RSS and podcasting and open source software for, gosh,

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long time, probably 15 years at least.

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Farther than that on the open source front, but long time.

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And buddies with Adam Curry for about that long.

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And we ended up, you know, we've come together on quite a few projects and the latest one

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was podcast index.

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And yeah, that's my role within the project really is sort of, I don't know, community

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organizer, community manager.

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I don't know what you even call it.

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Code contributor, just a little bit of everything.

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General Hype Man, I don't know.

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Maybe Adam's the Hype Man.

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I don't know.

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He's the Hype Man and you're the get it done man.

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Yeah, sidekick.

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Yeah, right.

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Comic relief.

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So can you explain a little bit what the genesis of podcast index, like what made you and

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Adam decide to do the index?

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Yeah, that one's pretty easy.

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We just had a phone call one day.

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Well, backing up a little bit before that, we did for a very long time, at least a decade,

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we did a project called the Freedom Controller, which was a open source server that you could

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run yourself, still around where you could have you and a bunch of buddies or family or

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whatever could all join the server, have an account and you could all follow RSS feeds.

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We started that a few years before Google Reader went bust.

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And the idea there was that one of the tech proficient people in your life could run a

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server for you and then all of you could have your own sort of community there because it

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went beyond just RSS readers.

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We called it a OPML pull only social network.

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So all the servers, every time a new server came online, all the other servers, all the

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other Freedom Controller servers could see that and then you could, I would follow your

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RSS feed, but if I replied using my RSS feed, your server would pick it up and see that

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as a reply and then nest those things together in a thread.

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So just by publishing RSS feeds back and forth, we could all communicate and have this weird

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decentralized social network.

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This is all pre-activity pub and that kind of thing.

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So that was the whole idea and it eventually evolved to handle Adam's podcast RSS feeds

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and show notes and all these kinds of things.

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And it became sort of a podcasting tool.

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And then around summer of 2020, during the middle of the pandemic, Adam called me and

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said, hey, there's a problem.

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We need to create a directory, a decentralized directory of podcasting because Apple and

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a few others had just all coordinated together, loosely coordinated together to all take down

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not just Alex Jones, but some other X22 podcast.

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There's quite a lot of podcasts that got de-platformed off the major podcasting directories at that

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time.

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And I mean, I don't even listen to Alex Jones, but I'm like, well, that's not right.

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I mean, you can't.

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Yeah, that's not cool.

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And so we said, well, let's do this.

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And so we have the expertise.

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We've been doing this for a long time with RSS.

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So over the course of about a month, literally, we just threw a bunch of code together, put

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up the podcast index, started our show called Podcasting 2.0.

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And off to the races.

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And that was the origin of the index.

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So for your listeners, there's a distinction here between you have the index, which is

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one thing, and then you have the podcast namespace, which is something different.

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And then you have podcasting 2.0, which is something even different from that.

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So there's some moving parts here, but that's how the index started.

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Sure.

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Yeah, I remember I found you guys pretty close to the beginning.

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I don't remember how many episodes of the podcast you had gone through, but I remember

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binging from the very beginning and was like, this is great.

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I love this.

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I've heard about that guys.

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The idea that you wanted something that people couldn't be taken out of the directory.

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I don't listen to Alex Jones either.

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I don't listen to that stuff, but I am about freedom and freedom of speech.

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And I think that, yeah, I don't want to see people get de-platformed just because of other

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people don't like them.

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And so I remember coming on onto that and going, this is great.

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I got to get involved.

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And I think shortly after I started listening, I said, you know, I signed up for an API key

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because I'm a part time developer, you know, and I decided I was going to try my hand at

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this.

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And I've done some things throughout the thing.

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My biggest thing was for me, I wanted to get in and get working on some of the namespace

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stuff.

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And we can talk about that here in a second, but because I use, I use blueberries tool,

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the power press to create my feeds.

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And at that time, you know, now they're, they're going gangbusters now.

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But at that time they weren't doing anything with that.

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No one hosting wise was really doing anything with that.

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And so I decided to get in there and dig into their code and see if I could insert some

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of these namespace tags in there.

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And so I kind of became the, the shim for a lot of the, the power press users.

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You did.

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But yes, that's, that's how I became part of it.

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So can you explain to our listeners a little bit about what, what the namespace itself is

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and why, what, what you guys are, what we're doing with that.

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Okay.

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Yeah, sure.

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So you have, you know, what we talked about with the index earlier with the end for clarity,

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the index is a, is for programmers.

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It's, it's really for app develop podcast app developers to be able to get a parsed

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RSS feeds easily and just get information about podcast easily without having to run

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a bunch of servers on their own time themselves.

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So we had that part.

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And so, but then we also knew immediately though, from the very beginning, we like,

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we want to do some important things.

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We want to make some new features.

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And so we'll have this index and then that will also be a sandbox for new features that

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we can put into podcasting.

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We didn't exactly know how that was going to happen yet, but then with, we, we started

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thinking about what's called the, what ended up becoming the value tag or you could send

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micro payments back and forth directly from the listener to the creator without going

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through a third party.

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I mean, literally point to point.

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And so we said, well, you know, how are we going to do that?

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We need some way to put that into the RSS feed because this can't be a third party.

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It has to be controlled by the podcaster themselves.

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So well, well, the only option within the world of RSS is a namespace.

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So we created what we call the podcast namespace.

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And once you have a namespace, you can overlay lots of new features and tags into the RSS

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feed, as you know, Andy.

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And then we created that and it's like, we created it just for, initially for one purpose,

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but then immediately we had four or five other ideas and the community had, you know, 20

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new ideas of things that had been tried in the past and failed or things that had never

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been tried and people just had as great ideas for the, you know, all of a sudden 20 years

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of sort of, you know, innovation and people having these ideas versus was sort of uncorked.

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And then immediately people like, let's do this, let's do this, let's do this.

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And so then we hit we, so we open source the namespace as, as it's up there on GitHub now

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and the namespace now has, it's like 20, I don't count them up, but it's well over 20

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different tags, each one of those representing a, a particular, a new feature that is now

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in RSS that, that either, either was not before or it was, and it was sort of didn't meet

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the mark, you know, it didn't go all the way.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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Cause I mean, yeah.

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So like RSS is, you know, extensible, which like you said, you can add namespaces on top

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of it.

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And Apple has, you know, had their namespace, but hasn't really done anything with it for

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a long, long time.

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And so, you know, there's not really been any, any new features in, in podcasting in

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a very long time until 2.0.

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Okay.

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You know, the namespace came around and I like what you guys are doing too with not

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only are you creating new tags, but you're also having like a drop in your replacement

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as far as a lot of your, your, you're also recreating some of the tags in Apple too,

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you know, like the season tag and the episode tag, but also adding to them.

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So not just rec, not just creating them, but also adding to them.

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Cause like with the, the podcasting 2.0 namespace, you can, you name your seasons instead of

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just having season one, two, three, four.

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So I do really like the fact that yeah, you're not just trying to come up with new things,

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but you're also enhancing other, you know, older features too.

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Yeah.

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And that's, that's been, I won't say that it's past.

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It's been controversial.

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I don't think it has been, but I think it's been probably maybe a misunderstood part of

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what is happening in the namespace.

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So you take a look at some, you know, if you look at the list of tags, you have like the

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transcript tag, that's, that's new.

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That's never been there before.

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You have the, the, the sound by tag that's never been in there before the person tag,

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the location tag.

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There's a lot of these things are new, but then like you were talking about, there's

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also the season tag.

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Well, the season tag is, is also in Apple's iTunes namespace.

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So why would we sort of do that?

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Why would we recreate the wheel and to just explain the thinking there, it's sort of a

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two pronged thing.

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One is we can have, we have the opportunity to do something to add new attributes, new

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features to that tag.

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Like you said, naming, you know, having a named season.

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But then you also, the other thought that we're trying to do is we want to also have

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a backward compatible tag with the iTunes namespace so that in the future, it may take,

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it may take two decades, but at some point in the future, if the podcast industry, when

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there is eventually enough adoption to where everybody has is, is using the podcast namespace,

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has it declared in their feeds, there can be a switchover.

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This is, okay, we're going to move away from Apple's proprietary iTunes namespace, which

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they control.

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And the reason that's important is because, you know, a podcasting was an open thing.

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RSS is open, it's decentralized, nobody's in control of it.

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There is no, there's not even an RSS advisory board anymore.

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RSS is just, it's completely, completely open.

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There's no control.

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But in podcasting, you have this weird situation where Apple, and now Spotify, but at the time

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Apple are just in complete control over large portions of podcasting, be it their directory

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or their control of the iTunes namespace, which the industry adopted as a standard,

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but it's not an open standard.

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If you want to add something to the podcast, to the iTunes namespace, if you want to add

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something to it or change, you have to go and petition Apple and just hope that they

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will eventually do it, which 99.9% of the time they won't.

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So this, we're creating an open, you know, like an open podcasting namespace.

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And so it's important for us to pull in some of these existing iTunes tags so that in

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the future there can be an easy switchover to the podcast namespace.

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And now at that point, after that happens, then the podcast industry is in control of

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its own destiny.

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They can do, they can do what they want because everybody has a voice and participates in the

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open project, which is the namespace.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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So you mentioned some of the new tags that you were creating.

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The very first one that you had mentioned was, well, you mentioned transcript, but you

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also mentioned the value block.

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Can I know the very first time I heard that I was a little bit turned off way because I'm

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like, you know, Bitcoin, you know, I don't want to do that.

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Crypto.

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Yeah, crypto.

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But I've really come around to it.

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And one of the things that I like about it is what we've called boostagrams, you know,

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where we're able to not just send, you know, little bits of streaming money.

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So that's kind of what the value tag is.

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You can, you can say, you know, I'm going to send, you know, 10 sats or 100 sats or

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1,000 sats a minute.

235
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:53,040
But then if I want to, I can send a message right to the podcaster with my, with that value

236
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:54,040
attached to it.

237
00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:58,580
So can you talk a little bit about like value for value and just kind of a high level about

238
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the value tag itself?

239
00:15:00,340 --> 00:15:01,900
Yeah, sure.

240
00:15:01,900 --> 00:15:05,980
So value for value as a concept.

241
00:15:05,980 --> 00:15:11,620
It's not new, of course, but it's, it was sort of crystallized by Adam on their, on

242
00:15:11,620 --> 00:15:16,020
his and John's show, no agenda over the last 16 years.

243
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And they started out and said, well, the nature of our show, we're a, we do commentary on the

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news media.

245
00:15:23,940 --> 00:15:30,520
And we really cannot have any credibility at all if we are taking advertising dollars.

246
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Because once you have an advertiser, then you have somebody who's going to have input

247
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on your show and the content of it.

248
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And it's just not going to work.

249
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And they're like, well, nobody's ever going to trust us, our opinion that our opinion

250
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,680
is our own unless if, if we have advertising.

251
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So they're like, well, this is going to have to be a donation model then.

252
00:15:50,100 --> 00:15:55,340
So we're going to have to just survive on the content, the quality of our content and

253
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whether or not people will donate money back.

254
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:03,020
So they involved that initial idea of just donations into this concept of value for value.

255
00:16:03,020 --> 00:16:11,260
And the idea is you, you take whatever the look around in your life, take whatever, whatever

256
00:16:11,260 --> 00:16:17,080
you see as valuable and how much dollar amount do you attach to those things.

257
00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:23,020
Now look at what you get from our show, attach a dollar amount to that, to our show and then

258
00:16:23,020 --> 00:16:25,420
donate that, that, that back to us.

259
00:16:25,420 --> 00:16:32,260
So if you're, you know, if you're spending $20 a month on Netflix, how often do you watch

260
00:16:32,260 --> 00:16:33,260
it?

261
00:16:33,260 --> 00:16:34,620
How many hours a month do you watch Netflix?

262
00:16:34,620 --> 00:16:39,780
Well, you know, convert that into something equivalent to our show and, you know, send

263
00:16:39,780 --> 00:16:40,780
us that.

264
00:16:40,780 --> 00:16:46,100
Because this idea of your, it's really this subjective value where it's like, I'm not

265
00:16:46,100 --> 00:16:51,160
as the podcast are going to tell you what to give me or what it, what is required to

266
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,800
unlock my paywall content.

267
00:16:53,800 --> 00:17:00,160
I'm just going to give you my content and I'm going to then ask for you to please just

268
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,800
give me back what you think it's worth in your life.

269
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:04,240
And that we tried.

270
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:09,640
So then we took that concept, which has been very successful for them over the years.

271
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It's responsible for two full-time incomes for Adam and John.

272
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We took that concept and said, okay, how can we make this work within podcasting at the

273
00:17:20,260 --> 00:17:22,100
technical level?

274
00:17:22,100 --> 00:17:23,820
And that's where we came with the value tag.

275
00:17:23,820 --> 00:17:27,900
Because the value tag is a high level here.

276
00:17:27,900 --> 00:17:32,620
I have a, I have a Bitcoin wallet and I'll talk about in just a second why it's Bitcoin.

277
00:17:32,620 --> 00:17:34,380
I have a Bitcoin wallet.

278
00:17:34,380 --> 00:17:36,620
You have a Bitcoin wallet.

279
00:17:36,620 --> 00:17:39,980
These are both public wallet addresses.

280
00:17:39,980 --> 00:17:45,880
So I should be able to, if I'm listening to your show and your RSS feed has a Bitcoin

281
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:50,240
wallet listed in it that belongs to you, I should be able to send you some money.

282
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:51,440
It's that simple.

283
00:17:51,440 --> 00:18:00,800
And so the technical aspect of that is that a button shows up in the app that says this

284
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,600
podcast, this show accepts Bitcoin.

285
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:09,960
And you, if you attach your wallet to the podcast app, now you can send them what we

286
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:10,960
call a boost.

287
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:16,540
And that's, you say, okay, I want to send you, maybe sometimes it's a, you know, a

288
00:18:16,540 --> 00:18:19,880
certain amount per minute, streaming payments.

289
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:24,600
Maybe it's a one-time boost payment where you just hit the button and like you said,

290
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,940
type in a message back to the podcaster.

291
00:18:26,940 --> 00:18:31,500
Then the podcaster receives that, that Bitcoin payment, sees the message.

292
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:37,340
And now that message and the listener becomes sort of part of the show because they're a

293
00:18:37,340 --> 00:18:40,640
supporter, they've also sent you a comment.

294
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,320
And that works because it's all completely voluntary.

295
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:48,820
The you're listening to the show, you're getting the show already.

296
00:18:48,820 --> 00:18:53,800
And if you decide at some point during the show listening that, oh man, this was great.

297
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,840
I really want to send some money in a message.

298
00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:58,280
You can just do it right there.

299
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,000
Nobody's forcing your hand or paywalling anything.

300
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,400
Well, yeah.

301
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:09,900
So I think the, just the Bitcoin part, the reason is Bitcoin is really for once, just

302
00:19:09,900 --> 00:19:18,060
one simple aspect of it is it's the only way to do programmatic money that is low enough

303
00:19:18,060 --> 00:19:25,340
fee to handle micro payments and also widely adopted and accepted and valid enough to be

304
00:19:25,340 --> 00:19:28,940
able to be used by enough people to make this viable.

305
00:19:28,940 --> 00:19:34,640
If you go off with some weird altcoin, you know, weird crypto coin that nobody's ever

306
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,640
heard of, you're never going to get any traction.

307
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:42,840
Everybody, not everybody, and then everybody's, a lot of people's feelings on Bitcoin is

308
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:47,880
mixed, but at least, I mean, we now have spot Bitcoin ETFs that are coming.

309
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,920
I mean, it's a legitimate asset.

310
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:57,440
So it has the credibility and the ease of accessibility through things like Cash App

311
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:02,820
that almost anybody can get Bitcoin within five minutes if you wanted to join in.

312
00:20:02,820 --> 00:20:04,300
So that's the reason we did it.

313
00:20:04,300 --> 00:20:09,100
Well, like, you know, you said, the thing that's important is right in the app.

314
00:20:09,100 --> 00:20:10,100
You can send a message to it.

315
00:20:10,100 --> 00:20:14,780
And I found myself several, several times where I'm listening to something, you know,

316
00:20:14,780 --> 00:20:19,260
especially the podcasting 2.0 podcast, but where you guys say something or the host says

317
00:20:19,260 --> 00:20:23,900
something and I want to immediately just like, I push the button for boost and send a, send

318
00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:25,340
a comment right with it.

319
00:20:25,340 --> 00:20:28,280
Because it's, if I wait, sure, you have an email address, right?

320
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:33,000
And I have an email address, but if I wait until I'm stopped and I type in your email

321
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,960
address and I send an email to you, chances are I'm not going to do it because I'm usually

322
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,840
driving when I'm listening to podcasts or washing the dishes, right?

323
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:41,840
And so same.

324
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:42,840
Yeah.

325
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:47,080
So I'm not going to pull out my email and try to send an email, but if I can push a quick

326
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,480
button, I don't have to address it to anybody because it's already, the app already knows

327
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,040
who it goes to because that's in the feed.

328
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:57,260
You can easily just type that in there and then you get the fun response of confetti

329
00:20:57,260 --> 00:21:00,900
in most, most apps kind of like hands to party.

330
00:21:00,900 --> 00:21:04,580
And, and then, and then a lot of times, you know, that becomes a feedback mechanism like

331
00:21:04,580 --> 00:21:08,620
you said, because a lot of, a lot of hosts will read that back on the show and people

332
00:21:08,620 --> 00:21:10,980
like hearing their own comments on the show.

333
00:21:10,980 --> 00:21:16,620
And yeah, it's just a great way to not only get, give value back to the, to the podcast

334
00:21:16,620 --> 00:21:20,260
because again, yeah, I could do that through buy me a coffee or Patreon or whatever.

335
00:21:20,260 --> 00:21:21,260
And I mean, I have one of them.

336
00:21:21,260 --> 00:21:28,120
I have, I have that for this show too, but at the same time it allows, yeah, the feedback

337
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:31,840
group is great because again, it's hard enough getting comments or you're trying to get people

338
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,120
to make comments and give you feedback on the show that, you know, but when they can

339
00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:38,000
do it right in the app, that's, yeah, that's perfect.

340
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:39,000
I love it.

341
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:40,000
Yeah.

342
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,000
There's a couple of things there about that.

343
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:48,800
That's a good comment because like, you know, Adam's been doing radio.

344
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:49,800
He's been a DJ.

345
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:55,220
He's been, you know, on television for, you know, since he was a teenager, I mean, literally

346
00:21:55,220 --> 00:21:58,540
since he was 15 years old, he's been DJing radio.

347
00:21:58,540 --> 00:22:04,280
And you know, even he will tell you to this day, it's still a thrill to hear your comment

348
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,180
read on a show.

349
00:22:06,180 --> 00:22:09,620
It's not just, you know, he's not immune to that.

350
00:22:09,620 --> 00:22:10,620
It's a thing.

351
00:22:10,620 --> 00:22:16,860
And we all love to be part of the show that we're, that we're invested in.

352
00:22:16,860 --> 00:22:22,240
We want, we want to be listeners, but we also want to be, it's fun to be part of it too.

353
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,280
You know, so there's that aspect of it.

354
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:30,920
But then also, you know, we've all had that experience where you have a subscription to

355
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:37,320
something and so let's say it's a PayPal subscription or a Patreon or something like that.

356
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:42,440
And maybe time goes, maybe there's certain times that go by where, you know, your life's

357
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:43,440
busy.

358
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,220
You don't have much time to listen to the show.

359
00:22:46,220 --> 00:22:50,020
And maybe it's been a couple of months that you've caught an episode and you look at that

360
00:22:50,020 --> 00:22:55,740
in that Patreon bill comes through and pop in, hits your credit card, you know, for $10

361
00:22:55,740 --> 00:22:59,540
and you're like, you know, am I really listening to this very much?

362
00:22:59,540 --> 00:23:02,940
Maybe I should cancel this subscription because, you know, I haven't listened in a while and

363
00:23:02,940 --> 00:23:05,580
I'm not sure when I'm going to be able to again.

364
00:23:05,580 --> 00:23:10,220
So you have that moment of like that natural, well, maybe, maybe I'm not getting a lot of

365
00:23:10,220 --> 00:23:11,220
value of this.

366
00:23:11,220 --> 00:23:13,480
So maybe I shouldn't, maybe I should cancel.

367
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:18,920
And then, then that, it's unlikely that it becomes more, excuse me, it becomes less

368
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,640
likely that you're going to resubscribe in the future.

369
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,960
Even if you pick the show back up, there's this weird thing that happens when you're,

370
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:32,200
when your payment or your support of the show is disconnected from the listening of the

371
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:33,200
show.

372
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:39,080
And so if you combine, like you said, if you combine those things into the same app,

373
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:45,700
into the app experience, now you're only, you're literally only paying when you listen.

374
00:23:45,700 --> 00:23:52,540
You don't have this weird sort of mental disconnect or when you get kind of like an annoying surprise

375
00:23:52,540 --> 00:23:56,380
of the monthly subscription coming through and hitting your credit card.

376
00:23:56,380 --> 00:24:00,100
So it, it kind of, it marries the two things.

377
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:04,100
It's like, well, you're listening to the show right now.

378
00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:07,340
You obviously value it or you wouldn't be listening to it.

379
00:24:07,340 --> 00:24:10,000
You know, otherwise you're kind of weird.

380
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:18,640
So it gives you the opportunity in app, whereas these other paywall sort of workarounds for

381
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:24,600
this listener support model have, they really kind of fall down there or at least to me,

382
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,640
they're kind of suboptimal.

383
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:34,800
Well, and to, you know, not only that, but you can, you can do splits on, on a show level

384
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:36,680
to, or not, not just a show level.

385
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:41,820
So for me, I'm the only host of this, this episode, this podcast, but you know, I can

386
00:24:41,820 --> 00:24:43,700
do it at an episode level too.

387
00:24:43,700 --> 00:24:48,540
So if Dave gives me his, his information, which I'm hoping you will, I will put you

388
00:24:48,540 --> 00:24:49,700
in the split for this episode.

389
00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:53,900
And then anyone that boosts this episode or, you know, does that it's going to go to not

390
00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:56,100
just me, but also to Dave too.

391
00:24:56,100 --> 00:24:59,100
And so that's one of the things that I like because you're also then valuing your guests

392
00:24:59,100 --> 00:25:00,100
as well.

393
00:25:00,100 --> 00:25:01,100
Yeah.

394
00:25:01,100 --> 00:25:05,980
And so you could have, I mean, there's, you know, Andy, there's shows that, that are

395
00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:11,760
a, you know, within the value for value world that have 20 different splits.

396
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,320
So it's not just the podcaster themselves getting, getting those payments.

397
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:21,200
It's, you know, people that contribute show art, people that do chapter work, people that,

398
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,880
you know, that edit the show, somebody that did the intro music, somebody that the, that

399
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,080
the podcaster just lied and wants to support charities.

400
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:35,920
I mean, you just, you could throw all these people into your, into your value block with

401
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,060
what we call in the, in the feed.

402
00:25:38,060 --> 00:25:45,660
And then my single payment of let's say $5 to your show gets split a dozen ways and

403
00:25:45,660 --> 00:25:50,380
portions that you specify percentages go to the, each one of these different people.

404
00:25:50,380 --> 00:25:54,540
And it happens in perpetuity because these shows remain published forever.

405
00:25:54,540 --> 00:26:01,100
So if somebody goes back five years from now and listens to an episode of your back catalog,

406
00:26:01,100 --> 00:26:05,740
they, those wallets still get payments just like they did the day it was published.

407
00:26:05,740 --> 00:26:06,740
Yeah.

408
00:26:06,740 --> 00:26:11,480
And then you also start getting other things like services where you, you know, you put

409
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:16,360
a split in here and then you can do XYZ with my service, you know, like, like, uh, John

410
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:21,680
Sprelach's new chapters, uh, thing where if you boost, you get a chapter with your name

411
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:22,680
and the image on it.

412
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:23,680
I think it's wild.

413
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:24,680
It's wild.

414
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:29,120
I tested it out and it's, it's crazy, but it's one of the things that are possible.

415
00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:34,960
And not only that, but then as the, you know, we've, we've all seen it, you know, 99 cent

416
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,740
apps, cause anything more than that, people are like, I'm not paying, you know, $20 bucks

417
00:26:38,740 --> 00:26:39,740
for an app.

418
00:26:39,740 --> 00:26:44,940
But you know, for my podcast listening, I really love the apps that I listen to use

419
00:26:44,940 --> 00:26:45,940
to do that.

420
00:26:45,940 --> 00:26:48,220
And I want to continue having them develop.

421
00:26:48,220 --> 00:26:51,860
So they also can take a chunk of it on top.

422
00:26:51,860 --> 00:26:55,900
They just kind of add on top and I'm a hundred percent cool with that because it allows me

423
00:26:55,900 --> 00:27:02,220
to support them in their development work and anyone along the value chain for the way

424
00:27:02,220 --> 00:27:03,220
that I'm listening.

425
00:27:03,220 --> 00:27:06,600
Cause it goes more than just the podcast or yeah, absolutely.

426
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,920
I mean, look at blue, you brought up the example of blueberry earlier, you know, they

427
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,860
went all recently have gone all in on podcasting, podcasting 2.0 features and they support

428
00:27:14,860 --> 00:27:16,460
the value tag now.

429
00:27:16,460 --> 00:27:21,700
And so they also have a, a wallet that they take 5%.

430
00:27:21,700 --> 00:27:25,520
So if you're using power press, you know, they'll take a percentage of that.

431
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,020
And so if you think, if you look at it, you know, if I'm using, let's just say if I'm

432
00:27:30,020 --> 00:27:34,820
using cast-a-matic and I'm listening to a podcast that's hosted on blueberries, a power

433
00:27:34,820 --> 00:27:40,420
press extension, everybody in that chain gets a piece of that payment.

434
00:27:40,420 --> 00:27:46,100
And it's not the podcaster gets, gets the payment, but also the podcast app developer

435
00:27:46,100 --> 00:27:48,580
Franco of cast-a-matic gets a piece.

436
00:27:48,580 --> 00:27:51,700
It gets a few percent.

437
00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:56,700
Blueberry gets a few percent for hosting, for building the tool.

438
00:27:56,700 --> 00:27:59,580
And then the podcaster gets everything that's left.

439
00:27:59,580 --> 00:28:04,820
And then you're, and however, you decide to split those chunks up to other people potentially.

440
00:28:04,820 --> 00:28:11,620
But yeah, it's, it's a, it's really the first time, I can say this for sure.

441
00:28:11,620 --> 00:28:19,500
It's the first time in the history of podcasting that the app, the programmers and the developers

442
00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:25,980
and the creators of these tools get brought into the value chain.

443
00:28:25,980 --> 00:28:31,260
And that's an important thing because, you know, the, the namespace is a feature, is

444
00:28:31,260 --> 00:28:37,180
a feature platform for all of podcasting, but it does grow out of, it isn't an extension

445
00:28:37,180 --> 00:28:43,500
of our work on the index podcast index, which is app developers focused.

446
00:28:43,500 --> 00:28:49,220
So we, we really care and serve programmers in the podcast ecosystem.

447
00:28:49,220 --> 00:28:56,140
And those people, those developers have never been able to really have a chance to make a,

448
00:28:56,140 --> 00:28:58,940
to make a lifestyle out of this.

449
00:28:58,940 --> 00:29:05,220
And now I think, I think because of this, they're making, they're making more money

450
00:29:05,220 --> 00:29:06,220
than they ever have.

451
00:29:06,220 --> 00:29:12,940
I mean, you know, I don't know how much, but I do know that the numbers I've heard is contributing.

452
00:29:12,940 --> 00:29:19,700
I mean, even if it's, hey, even if it's a two or $300 a month, that's two or $300 a

453
00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:21,700
month that was not there before.

454
00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:22,700
Yeah.

455
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:26,020
You know, that just did not exist at all.

456
00:29:26,020 --> 00:29:29,540
Because people do, like you said, people do not want to pay for apps.

457
00:29:29,540 --> 00:29:30,540
Yeah.

458
00:29:30,540 --> 00:29:34,300
Now value, value block is not the only thing in the namespace.

459
00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:39,300
It's one of the things I think that's, it's a hundred percent new to people, you know,

460
00:29:39,300 --> 00:29:43,340
as far as features go, but there's a lot of other tags and features that we've been adding

461
00:29:43,340 --> 00:29:44,340
to, to the namespace.

462
00:29:44,340 --> 00:29:48,780
And I say we because like you said, it's not just you and Adam coming up with these things,

463
00:29:48,780 --> 00:29:53,660
but you know, 150 other developers who are saying, you know, I want this, this would be

464
00:29:53,660 --> 00:29:54,660
great.

465
00:29:54,660 --> 00:29:56,780
So I do, I say we on purpose.

466
00:29:56,780 --> 00:29:57,780
Yep.

467
00:29:57,780 --> 00:29:58,780
Thank you.

468
00:29:58,780 --> 00:30:04,420
What are, what are some of the other tags and features that we've added?

469
00:30:04,420 --> 00:30:08,100
I don't know if this is legit, but I, yeah, and thank you for saying we, because that's

470
00:30:08,100 --> 00:30:11,060
a hundred percent true.

471
00:30:11,060 --> 00:30:16,900
I don't know if this is legit, but I tend to sort of bucket the namespace features into

472
00:30:16,900 --> 00:30:18,100
like two different buckets.

473
00:30:18,100 --> 00:30:25,740
There's, there's some that are like, I don't know, I don't even know the right term, sort

474
00:30:25,740 --> 00:30:32,860
of groundbreaking, not real happy with that term, maybe like paradigm shifting, you know,

475
00:30:32,860 --> 00:30:41,540
better big features that sort of, if you begin to think about their scope, they just have

476
00:30:41,540 --> 00:30:45,740
wide range, like wide reaching ramifications.

477
00:30:45,740 --> 00:30:48,300
Value tag would be one of those.

478
00:30:48,300 --> 00:30:51,540
The medium tag would be another one.

479
00:30:51,540 --> 00:30:55,180
The medium tag is a very simple tag.

480
00:30:55,180 --> 00:31:01,100
It goes into your RSS feed and it declares what type of content this is.

481
00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:05,220
Yeah, it's, it's, it's critically different than a category.

482
00:31:05,220 --> 00:31:08,940
And the category is what the content is about.

483
00:31:08,940 --> 00:31:12,660
The medium is what the, what the content is.

484
00:31:12,660 --> 00:31:19,180
So you can have a music category, but that just means you have a podcast about music.

485
00:31:19,180 --> 00:31:24,540
When you declare that you have a music medium using the medium tag, now you're saying that

486
00:31:24,540 --> 00:31:28,220
the content in the podcast is music.

487
00:31:28,220 --> 00:31:30,380
It literally is music content.

488
00:31:30,380 --> 00:31:36,100
These are, these are songs that you're going to hear in, in this podcast.

489
00:31:36,100 --> 00:31:40,500
And that is a fundamental shift.

490
00:31:40,500 --> 00:31:50,620
So the available mediums now are music, audio book, film, video.

491
00:31:50,620 --> 00:31:57,620
So you can have, you can have all of these different types of content that are now can

492
00:31:57,620 --> 00:31:58,960
be delivered.

493
00:31:58,960 --> 00:31:59,960
They've always can be.

494
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:01,660
They've always, they've always been fine.

495
00:32:01,660 --> 00:32:07,460
You can deliver any music, any audio or video through a podcast is, you know, through that

496
00:32:07,460 --> 00:32:10,060
meet, through that platform.

497
00:32:10,060 --> 00:32:14,540
But now you, now you've told the apps what to expect.

498
00:32:14,540 --> 00:32:17,020
So you're saying, okay, I'm going to put songs in my podcast.

499
00:32:17,020 --> 00:32:18,020
That's what these things are.

500
00:32:18,020 --> 00:32:20,460
These episodes aren't going to be podcast episodes.

501
00:32:20,460 --> 00:32:22,300
They're going to be music tracks.

502
00:32:22,300 --> 00:32:27,180
And I'm telling you podcast app that that's what these are.

503
00:32:27,180 --> 00:32:31,760
And that way the podcast app can make intelligent decisions about how to handle that content.

504
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:40,080
Now when it's just a regular podcast, you may, the podcast app may be doing things like

505
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,000
gap zapper, you know, where it's removing silences.

506
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:48,520
It may be doing a speed, variable speed, one, you know, one X all the way to two X things

507
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:49,520
like that.

508
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:51,440
Well, those things don't apply to music.

509
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,800
You don't want music to be gap zapped and sped up.

510
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,260
So now the, now the podcast app can say, Oh, this is music.

511
00:33:00,260 --> 00:33:01,260
Okay.

512
00:33:01,260 --> 00:33:05,460
I will reset myself to handle this type of content.

513
00:33:05,460 --> 00:33:10,180
And like the same with an audio book, you know, there's now it's like, okay, now these

514
00:33:10,180 --> 00:33:16,340
things, these chapters that are in this podcast, these are now not just random place markers

515
00:33:16,340 --> 00:33:21,740
within the podcast about different, maybe different content.

516
00:33:21,740 --> 00:33:26,940
Now these are, these are actual table of contents headings is what these things are.

517
00:33:26,940 --> 00:33:34,800
And like you can make lots of and also know how to reorder them so that your audio book

518
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:40,040
can say your audio book playback goes in correct order.

519
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:45,040
So there's lots of different, this, the medium tag is one of those, like the value tag that

520
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:51,540
has got wide ranging ramifications, even though it's very simple.

521
00:33:51,540 --> 00:33:58,780
Another one I would put probably in that category is the value time split that that goes one

522
00:33:58,780 --> 00:34:05,180
step further than the value tag that we talked about earlier where you can declare your wallets.

523
00:34:05,180 --> 00:34:11,720
And now that says, okay, during this section of my podcast, let's say from a minute, you

524
00:34:11,720 --> 00:34:18,000
know, from 25 minutes and 30 seconds to 27 minutes and 45 seconds.

525
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:23,620
During that time, I played a clip or a song from a different podcast.

526
00:34:23,620 --> 00:34:28,060
And so I want to tell the app, don't pay me during that time, pay the other guy, you know,

527
00:34:28,060 --> 00:34:30,980
pay the other person where that content originated from.

528
00:34:30,980 --> 00:34:36,940
And now the app, when you, if you send a payment during that, during that period of time, it'll

529
00:34:36,940 --> 00:34:41,060
now redirect that to the other wallet of the originator.

530
00:34:41,060 --> 00:34:49,520
You know, you can, you can pull in content from another podcast and still give appropriate

531
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,080
credit and payments to the originator of that content.

532
00:34:54,080 --> 00:35:01,320
So there's, there's those types of tags where I think it's sort of like, these are big deals.

533
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:02,640
This is a big deal.

534
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:08,160
And then there's some other tags that in that other bucket that are like, these are just,

535
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:14,140
these are just solid features, things like being able to put the transcript, a curated

536
00:35:14,140 --> 00:35:22,540
transcript of each episode in there, or a, the person tag where you can say, okay, you're

537
00:35:22,540 --> 00:35:29,860
going to declare that this person was in this podcast here, like me and you.

538
00:35:29,860 --> 00:35:32,340
So I'm on your podcast.

539
00:35:32,340 --> 00:35:36,660
If you could put a person tag in there with Andy Layman is the, is the host Dave Jones

540
00:35:36,660 --> 00:35:37,660
is the guest.

541
00:35:37,660 --> 00:35:43,000
You could have a little avatar of our picture, maybe a link to our bio, that kind of thing.

542
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,920
And then when the app sees that and is playing back that content, it can throw up a little

543
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:48,920
link to our bio.

544
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,880
We can throw up a little avatar with our, with our image on it.

545
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:58,120
Some apps have gone so far as to even link the person tags to the transcripts so that

546
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:02,600
it's showing our picture, depending on who's talking during playback.

547
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,760
Well, yeah, it's rad.

548
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,940
But some of that stuff, I mean, Apple had, you know, for select podcasts, I mean, Apple

549
00:36:08,940 --> 00:36:13,340
had that for really big podcasts where they'd have the hosts and maybe some guests, but

550
00:36:13,340 --> 00:36:18,340
that was never available to just everyday podcasters like you and I, like that was something

551
00:36:18,340 --> 00:36:20,420
that was reserved for big podcasters.

552
00:36:20,420 --> 00:36:21,860
You couldn't declare it in your feed.

553
00:36:21,860 --> 00:36:28,020
It was, you had to be specially invited by Apple to do that where now we can do that

554
00:36:28,020 --> 00:36:30,020
and we can credit everybody in the podcast.

555
00:36:30,020 --> 00:36:34,400
We can easily link out to whatever we want to link out to bios.

556
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:35,400
Yeah.

557
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,920
It seems like we're getting, yeah, just more and more freedom where we don't have to rely

558
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:45,680
on these walled gardens like Spotify or Apple to provide features that we can do ourselves

559
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:46,680
now.

560
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:47,680
Yeah.

561
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,440
That, and that's really what this is.

562
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,000
I mean, the, I mean, you know, this Andy, the, our whole project.

563
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:58,480
So if you take the index and the namespace and then all the community projects that go

564
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:04,060
within it, that collectively becomes what's this thing known as podcasting 2.0.

565
00:37:04,060 --> 00:37:12,860
So podcasting 2.0 is just this collection of ideas, software and services that support

566
00:37:12,860 --> 00:37:21,060
the mission of taking podcasting back into being controlled by podcasters and podcast

567
00:37:21,060 --> 00:37:26,980
companies and interested parties and developers and taking it away from being fundamentally

568
00:37:26,980 --> 00:37:29,600
controlled by the big, by the big companies.

569
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:30,600
Yeah.

570
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,000
And unfortunately we're seeing that even more now with YouTube jumping into the game

571
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,120
and trying to quote unquote podcast.

572
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,760
I'm not even going to call it a podcast, but quote unquote podcast with it.

573
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:40,760
Yeah.

574
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,400
We're seeing it even more.

575
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:47,400
So yeah, the more we go into this, the more I just really appreciate what we as a community

576
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,480
are doing to kind of take back podcasting to back.

577
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:54,000
Well, like it was originally, you know, like I, I started podcasting in 2007.

578
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,200
So I wasn't the very, very beginning.

579
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:57,820
But I, you know, I've done it on early though.

580
00:37:57,820 --> 00:37:58,820
Yeah.

581
00:37:58,820 --> 00:37:59,820
It is.

582
00:37:59,820 --> 00:38:03,660
I started way back then and I, I had to step away from my podcast for a while.

583
00:38:03,660 --> 00:38:07,420
Somebody else kept it going and it's actually, the other podcast is actually still going.

584
00:38:07,420 --> 00:38:12,260
But you know, so I've been doing podcasting on and off since 2007 and a lot has changed

585
00:38:12,260 --> 00:38:14,580
since then, but you know, not necessarily for the good.

586
00:38:14,580 --> 00:38:19,580
So it does feel, it feels now like grassroots, like it was back then where you're, you know,

587
00:38:19,580 --> 00:38:23,940
you're trying to clobber things together to make it work and trying to, you know, come

588
00:38:23,940 --> 00:38:24,940
up with these new things.

589
00:38:24,940 --> 00:38:25,940
Come up with new things.

590
00:38:25,940 --> 00:38:29,700
And so, yeah, this is feeling like that to me where we're just, you know, getting a

591
00:38:29,700 --> 00:38:32,000
lot of new stuff and it seems, it's fun.

592
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,000
It's fun again.

593
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:34,000
It is.

594
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,700
It feels like early internet days, you know, and the, the fun is, yeah, you talk about

595
00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:43,680
YouTube and this is going to, this is all, this is going to happen forever.

596
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,520
This is never going to not happen.

597
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:53,840
You know, Spotify came in because what they saw was, hey, here's a bunch of content that's

598
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:55,700
free.

599
00:38:55,700 --> 00:39:01,300
Everybody's out there making content and just posting it and we can just grab it and make

600
00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:05,300
and layer ourselves on top of it and skim some money off.

601
00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:08,060
And that's, hey, that's a gold mine.

602
00:39:08,060 --> 00:39:14,780
And that, that's exactly what that's what that fact is never going to change because

603
00:39:14,780 --> 00:39:20,180
podcasting has always been fundamentally free content and will probably always will be even

604
00:39:20,180 --> 00:39:21,980
there's some paywalling that's happening now.

605
00:39:21,980 --> 00:39:29,200
But it's not, you know, 99% of it is free available content and you're always going to have people

606
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:36,880
that see that as an opportunity to just add a big on top and get some money.

607
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,600
And that's what's, that's so Spotify did it first.

608
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,960
Now YouTube's doing it.

609
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:43,960
It's always going to be that way.

610
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:50,040
And it's something that podcast, I don't, I think personally there is no podcast quote,

611
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,340
unquote industry.

612
00:39:52,340 --> 00:39:56,100
I don't, I think there's podcast, there is a podcast community.

613
00:39:56,100 --> 00:40:02,700
There's definitely a community of people who know each other, support each other and are

614
00:40:02,700 --> 00:40:09,380
all going in a similar direction content wise and technology wise and ideology.

615
00:40:09,380 --> 00:40:16,420
And so I think there's definitely a podcasting community that is large, but I don't think

616
00:40:16,420 --> 00:40:20,300
there's a coherent podcast industry.

617
00:40:20,300 --> 00:40:22,440
And I think that's a good thing.

618
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:32,120
What we think of as the podcast industry is like, is this loose list of advertising agent,

619
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:40,600
digital advertising agencies, podcast hosting companies, podcast consultants, the podcasters

620
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:41,600
themselves.

621
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,560
But, but that's not, that's not an industry because they're all self-interested parties

622
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,780
doing their own, going in their own direction.

623
00:40:49,780 --> 00:40:52,920
And a lot of times they're at odds with each other.

624
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,900
And that's what happens in times like this with Spotify and YouTube and that kind of

625
00:40:56,900 --> 00:41:03,980
thing is those, those differences become apparent because the podcast, the podcast consultants

626
00:41:03,980 --> 00:41:10,220
and the podcast advertising agencies, they have no problem with YouTube and Spotify and

627
00:41:10,220 --> 00:41:11,740
these big companies coming in.

628
00:41:11,740 --> 00:41:18,040
It means more money in their pocket because the digital advertising opportunities are

629
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,640
a natural fit for that, for that business model.

630
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:29,760
But that's not what podcasting and the podcast community thinks of as podcasting.

631
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,840
So you have these two different, you know, the, the, that Adam calls it the podcast industry

632
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:40,080
of complex, that digital advertising supported arena within podcasting, which is just going

633
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,700
to always run to the new shiny thing that can make the next, you know, they can make

634
00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:49,060
the next percentage of digital advertising revenue and podcasting itself has always been

635
00:41:49,060 --> 00:41:51,300
something very, very different.

636
00:41:51,300 --> 00:41:57,020
It's been something that's based on freedom and, you know, an ideology of openness.

637
00:41:57,020 --> 00:42:02,580
And that's a thing that we really cannot, that has to remain the core or else podcasting

638
00:42:02,580 --> 00:42:04,580
itself just doesn't exist.

639
00:42:04,580 --> 00:42:05,580
Right.

640
00:42:05,580 --> 00:42:10,480
Podcasting came from the fact that, you know, there were people who didn't like what was

641
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:15,900
going on on the radio and or couldn't get on the radio, but had had something that they

642
00:42:15,900 --> 00:42:16,900
wanted to say.

643
00:42:16,900 --> 00:42:17,900
Yeah.

644
00:42:17,900 --> 00:42:19,540
They weren't, they weren't trained in radio.

645
00:42:19,540 --> 00:42:24,800
They weren't all Adam Curry, you know, and, but we were, you know, we're allowed to do

646
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:25,800
it.

647
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,160
And yeah, I think that yeah, that's, it needs to remain like that.

648
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:34,460
Cause that's, yeah, I think then that's where I see the podcasting 2.0 and the podcast index

649
00:42:34,460 --> 00:42:37,620
and everything is helping shift people that way.

650
00:42:37,620 --> 00:42:44,540
Cause there's a, yeah, a freedom and an ability to, to make content and not have to have your

651
00:42:44,540 --> 00:42:48,780
gatekeepers or, you know, whatever go through lots of different things.

652
00:42:48,780 --> 00:42:49,900
Anyone can do it.

653
00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:51,300
And there's all ranges of podcasting.

654
00:42:51,300 --> 00:42:56,260
I mean, obviously people that are just starting and may have a really, really crappy mic to

655
00:42:56,260 --> 00:42:58,500
people who have, you know, $1,000 bikes.

656
00:42:58,500 --> 00:43:00,900
There's going to be that range and that quality range too.

657
00:43:00,900 --> 00:43:05,340
But the thing that's great about it is it doesn't matter because you can do it.

658
00:43:05,340 --> 00:43:11,140
And if you have listeners that were willing to listen to your show, then you have an audience.

659
00:43:11,140 --> 00:43:12,140
That's right.

660
00:43:12,140 --> 00:43:13,140
Yeah.

661
00:43:13,140 --> 00:43:16,660
And with things like, like the medium tag that we talked about earlier, now you have musicians

662
00:43:16,660 --> 00:43:22,580
that are coming in and starting podcasts where their podcast is an album of music.

663
00:43:22,580 --> 00:43:24,220
And this is, this is new.

664
00:43:24,220 --> 00:43:29,620
I mean, like there's been, there's over time, there's been, you know, you'd have one little

665
00:43:29,620 --> 00:43:33,820
blip every now and then of somebody who might do something like this, like on a soundcloud

666
00:43:33,820 --> 00:43:37,660
and, and they got an RSS feed for free because they're on soundcloud.

667
00:43:37,660 --> 00:43:40,300
And so it would end up out there.

668
00:43:40,300 --> 00:43:46,820
But there was never a way to identify that stuff in such a way that the music artists

669
00:43:46,820 --> 00:43:51,380
saw it as a fertile ground of opportunity for them to put their content out.

670
00:43:51,380 --> 00:43:53,020
So now that's different.

671
00:43:53,020 --> 00:43:55,020
Now that has changed.

672
00:43:55,020 --> 00:44:02,580
So now you have a new area of freedom for musicians where they can come in and begin

673
00:44:02,580 --> 00:44:07,740
to put their albums on to out there as podcasts.

674
00:44:07,740 --> 00:44:12,540
And it become just this, it's this perfect delivery mechanism where now all this music

675
00:44:12,540 --> 00:44:17,100
is showing up in people's podcast apps and you have a way to send them, send them a value

676
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:18,540
back through a boost.

677
00:44:18,540 --> 00:44:26,620
So this, this is a way where podcasting is doing what it always has been great at.

678
00:44:26,620 --> 00:44:27,820
Exactly what you said.

679
00:44:27,820 --> 00:44:32,740
Not everybody can start a radio station, you know, nobody, nobody, nobody has, nobody

680
00:44:32,740 --> 00:44:36,540
in your neighborhood has 200, you know, has a quarter of a million dollars to get an SEC

681
00:44:36,540 --> 00:44:38,340
license to broadcast.

682
00:44:38,340 --> 00:44:44,400
But everybody can start a podcast, which is what the web did for publishing podcasts

683
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,140
did for audit for multimedia.

684
00:44:47,140 --> 00:44:51,820
And so now that the, the mediums and these, these new features are coming out, you're

685
00:44:51,820 --> 00:44:58,620
seeing this go to its logical next step, which is continuing to break barriers of gatekeeping.

686
00:44:58,620 --> 00:45:00,100
That's what podcasting is.

687
00:45:00,100 --> 00:45:02,340
It's a gate destroyer.

688
00:45:02,340 --> 00:45:07,780
And that's what's where if, if it's not breaking down gates, it's not doing its job.

689
00:45:07,780 --> 00:45:13,740
And so I feel like 2.0 is bringing back its ability to break the gates.

690
00:45:13,740 --> 00:45:19,400
Well, and, you know, not only now with your medium tag, you can have your podcasts apps

691
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:24,080
switch to, you know, just, even just showing media, just showing music, instead of having

692
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:29,400
it all mixed together if you'd want, but with the wallet switching technology, as Adam likes

693
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:36,320
to call it, you know, now Adam can do a music show and the artists get paid when he's playing

694
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:37,320
the songs.

695
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,160
If people are liking it, they just boost it and the artists get paid.

696
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:44,780
And then we're seeing, you know, people like Ainsley, kind of Costello, who have said they

697
00:45:44,780 --> 00:45:51,860
are making basically pennies from the traditional streaming apps and things, but are now making

698
00:45:51,860 --> 00:45:58,060
a decent living on, on the fact that they're making money on, on something that's like

699
00:45:58,060 --> 00:45:59,060
that's podcasting.

700
00:45:59,060 --> 00:46:03,580
And then, you know, a year ago, even two years ago, we wouldn't have even imagined that.

701
00:46:03,580 --> 00:46:04,580
Yeah.

702
00:46:04,580 --> 00:46:10,480
And, you know, take that to the next step beyond that, which is audio books and there's

703
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:11,920
so much content out there.

704
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,940
You know, we all, we've all had to go to LibriVox, you know, at some point and get, and get an

705
00:46:15,940 --> 00:46:21,600
audio book for something, a classic public domain audio book.

706
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:27,240
And you know, God bless those people that, that do that, you know, they're, they, they

707
00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:32,560
spends, they spend their hard, their, you know, precious time to record those audio books.

708
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,100
And some of them are, are just not good.

709
00:46:35,100 --> 00:46:41,380
The, they're, they're just of poor quality, but they, they really spent their time to

710
00:46:41,380 --> 00:46:42,660
do it.

711
00:46:42,660 --> 00:46:44,580
Now they can get a return on that.

712
00:46:44,580 --> 00:46:52,060
Now that, now they can get, they can easily get payments to come back to them.

713
00:46:52,060 --> 00:46:55,220
And I think you're going to see another explosion of content.

714
00:46:55,220 --> 00:47:01,300
Once we start to focus on audio books, then you will have people that are incentivized

715
00:47:01,300 --> 00:47:05,240
to go and get in there and do a really good job.

716
00:47:05,240 --> 00:47:09,560
Whereas before it was, you know how it is, Andy, I mean with, with open source software

717
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:10,920
is that way too.

718
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:17,400
When it's a labor of love, it only carries you so far to, to where, you know, a lot of

719
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:25,120
most, most open source projects, open source programming projects, they get, they get 90

720
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:32,180
percent of the way there. And then the last 10% of polish and finishing the job is so

721
00:47:32,180 --> 00:47:34,780
hard that they just never get finished.

722
00:47:34,780 --> 00:47:36,340
Well, other things become important.

723
00:47:36,340 --> 00:47:37,340
Other things become important.

724
00:47:37,340 --> 00:47:40,220
You know, your, you know, there's other things going on because you're not making money off

725
00:47:40,220 --> 00:47:41,220
of it.

726
00:47:41,220 --> 00:47:42,220
You know, your day job, whatever.

727
00:47:42,220 --> 00:47:43,940
And so yeah, there's things that are becoming more important.

728
00:47:43,940 --> 00:47:46,700
So yeah, you're a hundred percent right.

729
00:47:46,700 --> 00:47:52,100
Money doesn't solve everything, but it helps in the long run to be able to, to motivate,

730
00:47:52,100 --> 00:47:55,400
to put the quality there. Cause you're going to, you're going to wait that a little bit

731
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:59,600
higher because you're making something back and you're getting value back in return.

732
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:07,320
Even if it's just in these are, even if it's just 20 bucks, there's some, it is, it's more,

733
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:15,320
it's less about the money, honestly, as it's more and more about the money as a signal that

734
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:20,240
there's somebody out there that's valuing and, and sort of, and depending on what you

735
00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:21,240
do.

736
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:25,940
And we, you know, we're, we're a donation based, the primary role of our podcast each

737
00:48:25,940 --> 00:48:35,580
week on, on Friday is to, is to inform about what's going on in the project, but also it's

738
00:48:35,580 --> 00:48:37,860
the way we fund the project.

739
00:48:37,860 --> 00:48:45,220
The index costs us about $1,200 a month to run with all the different hosting fees that

740
00:48:45,220 --> 00:48:51,680
we have to pay. And so we have to make, we have to get some money back. And the fact

741
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:56,840
that people are willing to support us. And I know a lot of them are just supporting the

742
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:02,480
show. They're not necessarily supporting the index cause they don't use the index, but

743
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:10,880
that's fine. I mean, it gives me, it gives me a lot of motivation in the form of, hey,

744
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:16,340
and it's a Thursday night and it's time to do show prep. And we just got home from, you

745
00:49:16,340 --> 00:49:20,900
know, from rock climbing with my daughter and we're all tired. I'm like, you know what?

746
00:49:20,900 --> 00:49:25,740
Yeah. But there's quite a few people who donate to this, to this project to keep it going.

747
00:49:25,740 --> 00:49:31,300
And it motivates me to get up and go do the work to do it. Whereas if that, those donations

748
00:49:31,300 --> 00:49:38,780
weren't there, I, they would, it would be very easy to just skip, skip a day, you know,

749
00:49:38,780 --> 00:49:40,580
not put my whole heart into it.

750
00:49:40,580 --> 00:49:45,000
Definitely. Well, there's, I mean, there's so much involved with, with podcasting 2.0

751
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,720
and the namespace and everything. I would encourage people to look at, I don't want

752
00:49:47,720 --> 00:49:52,600
to keep you too long. I know you've got a day job. You got to go back to also, but I,

753
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:58,160
you know, I want to thank you for, for being on, on the show today and, and where can people

754
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,560
find out more about the index? Cause again, there's so much more going on with just than

755
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,680
what we just talked about today.

756
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:09,080
The best place to hang out if you're interested in index stuff and the namespace and everything

757
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:13,460
going on with 2.0, I guess the best thing to do would be listen to our show on Fridays

758
00:50:13,460 --> 00:50:17,900
at noon central time, uh, well 1230 and, um,

759
00:50:17,900 --> 00:50:20,180
It's live. You record it live.

760
00:50:20,180 --> 00:50:26,180
It is. Yeah. It is live, which, which was fun. I had never podcasted before until, um,

761
00:50:26,180 --> 00:50:29,020
you know, until doing this show with Adam. And then all of a sudden we're doing a live

762
00:50:29,020 --> 00:50:34,780
show. So that was like trial by fire. Um, but we, uh, listen to the show every, you know,

763
00:50:34,780 --> 00:50:40,200
every Friday, but then also, uh, podcast index dot social as our mastodon instance.

764
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:45,480
Um, and so you can go and hang out there. Uh, if you need an invite, it's invite only

765
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:50,360
because we try to keep the junk out, keep it focused. Yeah. Keep it focused. So, but

766
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,920
you can still, you can still watch, uh, look at the content. You just can't post, but if

767
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:59,440
you want to post and, and join up and have, have fun, join the party, uh, send us an email

768
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:04,000
info at podcast index.org and I'll get you an invite code. It's not, it's, there's no

769
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,940
gatekeeping. It's just to keep out the job. Sure. Yeah.

770
00:51:06,940 --> 00:51:13,860
All right, guys. Thanks so much for hanging out with me today. If you got any value out

771
00:51:13,860 --> 00:51:18,820
of this podcast at all, I ask that you either send us a boost to Graham, like we talked

772
00:51:18,820 --> 00:51:25,340
about in the episode, or you can go to podcast answers.com slash buy me a coffee and give

773
00:51:25,340 --> 00:51:30,660
me a one off, uh, donation or you can help support, uh, any, any things that we were

774
00:51:30,660 --> 00:51:35,800
doing right now. I'm trying to raise funds for buying a sure SM seven B and that'd be

775
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:41,840
helpful. So without further ado, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much guys for hanging

776
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:47,280
out with me. And if you have any podcasting questions, I would love to answer them. So

777
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:54,240
please contact me at podcast answers.com slash contact. And I can answer your podcasting

778
00:51:54,240 --> 00:51:59,960
question on the very next show guys. Thanks for hanging out with me today. Have a great

779
00:51:59,960 --> 00:52:00,460
week.

780
00:52:00,460 --> 00:52:04,460
Good luck.

781
00:52:04,460 --> 00:52:06,460
You

782
00:52:12,460 --> 00:52:14,520
you

783
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:16,600
you