Bayan on Demand offers a growing library of courses taught by highly regarded scholars and practitioners, designed for meted board members, school administrators, imams, chaplains, youth workers, parents, and more with classes on Islamic theology, adolescent development, non-profit management, and the history of Islam in America and more. Baan on Demand provides accessible knowledge for just $10 a month. Join our growing community of learners today and support the work of Bayan Islamic Graduate School and the Muhammad Ali Scholarship. Go to baan online.org. That's B-A-Y-A-N online.org to get more information. As Salaamu Alaikum may the peace that only God can give be upon you. Welcome to the American Muslim Podcast. I'm your host, Imam Tariq El-Amin and each week I bring to you a new conversation with a different leader serving their community in a variety of ways. This week we are pleased to have Dr. Kameelah Mu'min Oseguera joining us. She is the founding executive director of Muslim Wellness Foundation. And an assistant professor of Psychology and Muslim studies at Chicago Theological Seminary. Her teaching research and clinical areas of expertise include mental health stigma in faith and minority communities, healing justice and faith-based activism, black Muslim psychology, and black Muslim intersectional invisibility. Welcome to the American Muslim Podcast, Dr. Kameelah.

Wa Alaikum As Salaam Imam Tariq thanks for having me.

It is great to have you here. And one of the things that we always tell our guests is that, you are the main attraction, right? It is. It is your work, it's your journey. So we invite you to be as open, as transparent, as you are comfortable being and sharing that journey. And with that said, I want to ask you, is there an event, a memory and a, a, a mentor? Is there something that you can look back to in your history and point to that as a formative? Event that has brought you to where you are today.

So, easy softball question to begin with,

right?

there, there's so many moments to choose from, but, can I share two.

As many as you want to.

so I'll say the first that, you go through like a mental Rolodex, right? This impactful, meaningful moments and always the first that comes to mind is, a memory of attending protests in Brooklyn with Mya Amina Baya. I had to be around seven or eight years old, because I, I can remember, this case was related to the assault on Tiawana Brawley. and it was Reverend Al Sharpton that were leading those protests in Brooklyn. and this protest happened to be at the Slave Theater in Brooklyn, in Bed-Stuy. and I just, I, what I can recall is. Sort of the energy and of the community. and so even in protesting violence happening, just the spirit of warmth, of I think strength that I can remember. and I remember at one of those protests, someone asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. And like I said, this is maybe like 1985, right? So I might have been in first or second grade. And I remember saying I wanted to be a professor of African American history and I wanted to be a psychologist. And that was based on the work that I saw my mother do in the community. I grew up in Massa, Tako in Brooklyn. And, my mother was very much involved. and this was a community that was very much connected to the wider African American community. and in those days working to like clean up the blocks, right? and so when I remember just that, that energy, that spirit, that commitment, that dedication, That stands out for me as a pivotal, like formative time. And the reason that I said I wanted to be a psychologist is that my mother, like me, read a lot and, owned a lot of books. Jay Rogers, books on Marcus Garvey Islam, and she owned books by Naim Akbar. and so that at the time was sort of the only sort of representative sort of figure that I had of what does it mean to talk about African consciousness, psychology, talk about knowledge of self. it was through the books that my mother owned, right? and Naim ABAs work stood out to me. so I think someone looked at me like. This little girl's like, I'm gonna be a professor and a psychologist. and here I'm today,

right here, here we are today. So

Alhamdulillah for my mother, right? For the community that, that nourished me. and didn't dismiss right? An eight year old's dream of becoming both those things. so.

So, so you, the protest and the basically kind of the knowledge environment that you

Yes.

Grew up in, had access to that. These are things that were definitely formative for you.

Absolutely. and I would say connected to that, is a second sort of. Memory or formative relationship? with my late mentor May lobby, be pleased with her, Dr. Deborah Majeed. and she wrote so much about Muslim womanist philosophy, right? Sort of founded that idea and that concept. and that being rooted in, African American Muslims, women's understanding of the Koran, of the Sunna and of the community. And that our lives are, just contain so much wisdom and ways of knowing, because of being a black Muslim woman, right? what kind of perspectives and experiences and interpretations right of our faith do we bring because of those identities? and so. she, returned to a law in 2022 in March and just the significant loss, in terms of just knowledge in the community is always devastating, right? When we lose a scholar and an elder. but for me, she was also, another mother like figure that supported both. Me personally and professionally, and who I looked up to as one who balanced the complexity of community work, of leadership, of scholarship, and she did it with such grace and kindness and warmth, that, I see the memory of, protest with my mother and with my mentor, Dr. Majeed as. Really strong bookings. For who I am and who I believe I'm becoming.

Now as a first grader, first or second grader, seeing yourself in the future as a psychologist, right?

Yes.

so you also served, as a chaplain at one point?

Yes. Yes.

Did you see that as a stop along the way to, to that goal? Or, or was that something that was separate, from that?

Again, interesting question. you're making me have to dig deep. 'cause I wouldn't see it or frame it as a stop along the way. I do believe that in many of the roles that I've taken on in, in my life, thus far, it has been, it has felt like an obligation that was presented to me, and kind of a request. From the creator to serve my community, right? Not just to talk about my community or say that I'm invested in community wellbeing, but what does it mean for me to. Apply my skills, right? My perspectives, towards the service and care, right? Of the people that I'm concerned about, the people that I love. and so in two, I wanna say in 2013, I was asked to serve as the Muslim chaplain of the University of Pennsylvania. I. and the request was made by a dear friend, who's still the current university chaplain. Reverend Dr. Chas Howard. we had known each other since we were 18 years old. So I'm, I graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in 2000, so coming up on my 25 year reunion from college. Yeah. And, and I had done work around campus, thinking through, what does it mean to serve the Muslims on the campus, that I graduated from. And he was like, you know what, sister, I'm gonna ask you something, right? and I wanted just don't say no yet. just hear me out. and I had, I hadn't conserved in that capacity, right? But. by then I had already started to do work as a clinician. two years prior I had founded Muslim Wellness Foundation. I was still living in Philadelphia. and he said, we need someone right to care for our Muslim students. Would you accept my invitation? and I didn't say no 'cause he asked me not to right away. but I, this was very early in. I would say the development of university chaplaincy, For Muslims. there, Sohaib Sultan, may Allah be pleased with him. Omar Bajwa at Yale, like these were, some of the folks that were doing that work on campuses, but there wasn't sort of, a robust understanding, Of how we serve the community on a college campus. Many people at the time still had questions, right? So what does it mean for a woman to be a chaplain? You can't lead the prayer. You can't do this, right? You can't give a, so what do you do if at the time, and maybe still is the case, chaplain was synonymous with Imam. and so being able to introduce an understanding about the care that is needed, the pastoral care, helping to facilitate, conversations around identity connection, community belonging, was a really valuable role. And notably at that moment, 2013. Was the 50th anniversary of the Muslim Student Association at Penn. and one of the founders of that MSA was our dear brother Sherman Jackson. and the first black Muslim woman to serve as the MSA President was elected that year. so you have this 50th anniversary of the MSA coinciding with the first black Muslim woman chaplain, the first black woman to be elected as the president of the MSA. So I was like, this is compelling. Information and evidence for Yes, this is an invitation that I have to accept. It also happened with. The surveillance that was happening of many university campuses by the NYPD. So this information doesn't emerge until much later. but again, all of these, these moments kind of aligning, is how I was introduced to this is a way right to serve my community.

you mentioned, going back to some of those formative elements, in your upbringing, Naim Akbar, and thinking about how we self-identify and thinking about your upbringing, within the community of Masjid al-Taqwa in Brooklyn, And. Can you speak a bit about how your understanding of your own identity and how you define community, because My perspective of the way you do that is very, broad and, it's not restrictive. can you talk about how those individual elements of how you see identity have also impacted the way you see community in a broader sense?

Yes. so I would agree that based on my early influences, from. Masjid Al-Taqwa community in Brooklyn. my childhood and upbringing being very much influenced by the Darla Law Movement. our approach and what I was taught, as an understanding of community is that yes, it includes the community of believers, but it doesn't stop there. It means that if you are a member of this community, everyone that. Resides, worships, travels to this community, should feel the love and protection of the believers. And that it is, our way of living Islam such that anyone who comes to this place, I mean. And thinking about the Bed-Stuy neighborhood of Brooklyn at the time, right? Mid eighties, early nineties. it is not the Brooklyn of today, right? It is a Brooklyn, in a neighborhood that was battling, Crime, poverty, right? We see, the emergence of gentrification so many decades later, but then. The, what community meant is we have clearly delineated these boundaries in which people are protected, right? They are, kind of watched over. these are places in which the most compelling form of Dawa right, is for everyone to see Muslims living Islam. What does it mean to be concerned about your neighbor, right? Not just your Muslim neighbor, right? But everyone who's in that vicinity, there should be this overwhelming feeling that when I go where the Muslims are, I'm good.

That's right.

when I'm connected and in relationship to Muslims, my own faith, right? Even if it's not Islam, my own faith is elevated, right?

And

so. Community means that, we are setting an example of what it means not to just say, well, this is what I declare myself to be, but this is how I live it. This is how I demonstrate it. This is how you feel when you're in my presence, right? This is what you learn when you're in relationship with me. and so, for many people to. Again, not just Muslims to, to hear the ahan, to hear the call to prayer right? From a Brooklyn Mosque. to see the brothers lined up on the street during Juma, right? for people to say, you know what, I'm gonna go to Halal meat market because they're not trying to sell me some day old stuff, right? my mother used to own a small clothing store across from the masjid. And so there was this sense of like, vibrancy, of self-determination. again, I just get, what I can still feel in my body is this energy that welcome people. Right now we have principles upon which we live and we need you to abide by. Honor. and anyone can say, if you were a Muslim woman right in this neighborhood, in this community, you didn't have to worry about your safety. so there was a sense that. In this, if we wanna call it like a Muslim zone, right? you'll be greeted, you'll be cared for, you'll be protected. And what is asked for in return is that you see yourself as part of this community, and respected, right? and this goes for again, Muslim or non-Muslim. Everyone benefits when we are living our faith in a way that is pleasing to Allah.

I left something on the table that I have to go back to. Okay. you mentioned, and I think it still is the case, there are more women chaplains today, than there were 20 years ago, even 10 years ago. But still, I would say the vast majority still tend to be, men In your experience and. Not just providing pastoral care, but as a leader in that space. Because there's a leadership element.

Yes.

I don't want any of our aspiring chaplains to feel that I did not interrogate this point a little bit, for you to share a bit of your experience there. What were some of the things that you point to that you can point to that kind of. Illustrate what you are able to bring to that position that possibly your male counterpart might not have been able to?

That's a great question. and I would immediately point to one, the fact that I was an alum. I. Of the university, right? So having, direct experience with what it meant, right to be on that campus, in that city, to be a student. and so, being able to incorporate some of my own lived experience, in my leadership role. and I think there's. As a Muslim woman chaplain, bringing a level of sensitivity to just how nuanced and thoughtful we have to be about building relationships. So leadership is not just, okay, this is the duty that I perform, but it's a process of building rapport, of trust, of relationship, managing conflict, being able to, and not just moments of crisis, right? But moments of. Even stagnation, right? Feeling people, perhaps not being as, able right to, to point to a sense of belonging. That feels very genuine. it's the facilitation of. Those like relational dynamics, that becomes a huge part, Of the role.

Mm-hmm.

And what I was able to bring, in terms of my own skill and awareness, I. Was that emotional intelligence, that sensitivity. I'm also a clinician, right? and at the time I was a master's level clinician. But, being able to understand that what we're in that role, what we're facilitating is not simply like religious development. we're also, this is a time, it's called Emerging Adulthood, where people are exploring questions of spirituality, of identity, of meaning and purpose. And so yes, there is, I think a natural desire to seek. More information or clarity around perhaps the rules that were learned right early in childhood. if, you know the person was born into, a Muslim family or for those who are seeking to renew, right? Their commitment to Islam, right? it's, yes, there's the need for. Spiritual guidance. Sort of like theological reflection. and also an understanding of context of development. of how are we creating a space in which people can be curious about who they are and minimize the sense of judgment, right? That they think that they're going to experience as they're on that journey. And so I, I think when often there's this assumption that Imam is synonymous with chaplain,

right?

It reduces the chaplaincy to perform the prayer. These duties maybe do a halah, and not sufficient enough attention paid to the level of skill that's also required to nurture individuals within that community. and so that was, it's like, yes, I'm not leading the prayer right, but what I am facilitating, 'cause we can bring in a brother to do the prayer, right? Like that we can get that covered. but what I'm facilitating, especially at that moment, it was the 50th anniversary of the MSA, Is having questions about how do we define community? How do we address some of the longstanding issues within that community, particularly around race and gender, that even I experienced as an undergrad, right? how do we start to tease out what needs to be done to bring some of these issues to light? and so, that's what I think I brought to that role, uniquely. And I'll mention this. I don't think you asked me specifically, but I'll say what was challenging in that role of leadership were I. Issues around gender bias. mis and r like thinking about who I am as a black woman in a position of power and authority in that role.

Mm-hmm.

And, and having others question rather directly or implicitly if I had enough knowledge, if I had enough. Gravitas. To be in that role and, to experience Those who are not of my generation. questioning, undermining, Being ambivalent right? About whether or not this was, an appropriate place for a woman to be, for a black woman to be, at times those were the issues that simmered beneath the surface. and I was very, I tried to be as transparent as possible in calling it what it was. Like we, we can talk about, how we negotiate the ways decisions are made, and let's also be very clear that some of the opposition, some of the difficulty might be stemming from some biases that have not been acknowledged. So. I hope that answers your question. I didn't wanna go off on a tangent, but

no. it did. And as you were answering it, I was actually interrogating the framing of my question. and that to be whether or not your experience or your awareness of, of gender had actually any impact on your performance as a chaplain. And on its face, it would seem that this is one of those positions where the individual is either able to rise to the challenge of the position Or not. And that gender should not be a focal point. So I think my framing as I was listening to you. I think I would've said it again, more along the lines of just what did you bring to the position and I'm sure you would have still expressed that there was gender bias, Just as a matter of fact. But not that it was something, well, I'm gonna bring this as a woman, as opposed to, My male counterpart would, cannot bring this, because

Yeah.

that's a different framing, so,

Hmm. Mm-hmm. but I think to be honest, with the emergence, I think of this particular path towards like spiritual and religious authority, right? not in a masjid, right? But still in a community,

right?

I think we are right as Muslim communities in some ways still struggling, right? With how do you affirm and validate that as a legitimate role that is sort of inclusive of that power, right? and so what is it, what does it mean for us to. I think ask ourselves, from the earliest traditions, right? We talk about the wives of the Prophet Mohammed ﷺ. peace and blessings be upon him and the ways that they were the rock. Of transmission, of knowledge, of understanding, of empathy, right? Like supported this growing early movement. and then today, right? We see within the American context, still a continued relegation of women simply to roles that have to do with children, right? Or teaching right in, in sort of the elementary sense. and so. Now that we see the growth of chaplaincy, right? Hospitals, prison, college, campuses. It's, I think forcing us to reckon with how we have not sufficiently Address sort of gender and bias and knowledge and power, right? Some communities do this better than others.

Mm-hmm.

But this becomes another, I think, avenue that really still challenges us to say what are we doing well and where do we still have some work to do? So that all of the brilliant women that are my students at Bayan and CTS. They can stumble upon some new mistakes, some new challenges, but that they're not confronted by the ones that I faced over 15 years ago. Right. 13 years ago. but this, if we're not being transparent about gender and power and author within our communities, it's just gonna manifest itself in a different context. And this just happened to university chaplaincy.

Right now, Dr. Kameelah, you wear so many hijabs that

too many,

it's you, you sort of segued into your role as a clinician, as a professor, but this is also connected to your role as a builder of community. As a community keeper. tell us a bit about How did Muslim Wellness Foundation come about?

So I'm gonna try to give you like the speed version.

Yeah.

So Wilson Wellness Foundation, I founded in Philadelphia in 2011. and that was in response to my work through the Department of Behavioral Health, in the strategic planning division. thinking about how do we provide competent. Sensitive, relevant services to Muslims in the city. and Philadelphia known to have a huge Right. Just At this point, maybe 250,000, Muslims in the city.

Wow.

But at the time there, there was no initiative. That spoke to the needs and the concerns and, the challenges of Muslims in Philadelphia. so it started as the Muslim Wellness and Recovery Initiative at the Department of Behavioral Health, and quickly grew, for me, just understanding how difficult it was for. For Muslims to access services to find competent clinicians. So it started as, how do we reduce mental health stigma? How do we increase services? how do we ensure that there's those services are good, right? Not just available but good. and so from 2011, it grew from that initiative into a nonprofit. and then over time, thinking about not just the reduction of stigma, but really understanding the role of oppression of white supremacy, of Christian hegemony, of Islamophobia, of racism, How does that also impact the overall wellbeing of American Muslims and. Beginning in 2015, Muslim Wellness Foundation, started the first, and hosted the first black Muslim psychology conference, because it was very much evident that of the growing conversations around Muslim mental health, the health of black Muslims in particular was not being discussed. and 2015, was the hundred 50th anniversary of Juneteenth. It was, the sort of this, the growing protest around Black Lives Matter. in fact, it was, that summer, the Baltimore uprising with the murder of Freddie Gray, a lot of Muslims in Baltimore involved in those protests. And so it became a way to. Like convene, right? Black Muslims and say, we're living at this intersection, right? we've been here before, but now let's talk about how it's impacting us psychologically and what are we doing right in order to. Grow the pathways for healing when we're navigating so much of the anti-blackness, broadly within the Muslim community. the Islamophobia within the broader American society, the violence, right? Surveillance, detention, all of that. and so the Black Muslim Psychology Conference, we are coming on now this year's as a 10th year anniversary, in Chicago in July to talk about, What does it mean for us to still be at this crossroads now under this administration? and how do we look back? So our theme is SelebeYoon which means, in Wolof the crossroads. So how do we look back on 10 years of scholarship, of thinking, of community building to help anchor us in this present moment and for us to imagine what the future of wellness for us could look like. And this is happening still under Muslim Wellness Foundation. but in 2021 we established the Omar Ibn Said Institute for Black Muslim Studies and Research right to. to really, I think, affirm that black Muslim psychology is an interdisciplinary field of inquiry that is necessary. It is urgent. and that we need all of the various expertise and voices of the community in order to grow this as, as a worthwhile inquiry. and it brings together again. Akbar, right? It's like we, we've been doing this, right? Talking about knowledge of stuff, talking about who we are. but we need to formalize this under, a banner and an initiative that says the wellness of black Muslims. The healing for black Muslims actually enhances the ability of everyone we are connected to. To heal and to grow and to feel a sense of belonging. And so let's talk about us, right? Let's talk about who we are and what we've done and where we're trying to go. so my work with Muslim One Foundation, with the Omar Ben Site Institute with the Black Muslim Psychology Conference, has been some of the most rewarding work. Of my life, being able to, curate a weekend of reflection, of challenge, of discussion and of love and care, right? For the communities that are closest to my heart. Is not just an obligation, it's an honor, right? That I look forward to every year. because my people love to smile and talk and laugh. Time together. and so while we're focused on, what the difficult issues are, we enjoy ourselves, right? we celebrate who we are and and for that, right? That we have this opportunity to. both be challenged and to be cared for.

and I have to say, as an attendee, my first time, at the Black Muslim Psychology Conference was 2017 in Philadelphia. And, it was transformational for me. So this is one of those spaces, it is affirming. it is life giving. If now I wanna connect back to this idea of community and an expansive view of it. you're doing some work now. you're the primary researcher. The, the engine behind, research that I think it embodies this idea. Of the stewardship that the African American Muslim experience here at its best embodies it seeks to take responsibility and and exhibit stewardship.

Yes.

Irrespective of faith tradition, but for our communities. Can you talk about this work that you're doing, this research.

gladly. I think a, again, it falls within the realm of, work that I am. I have so much gratitude to Allah, subhana wa'ta'ala for giving me the opportunities, but also the experience and the expertise right to lead conversations and the exploring black Christian views of American Muslims. Project began in 2020. And was, catalyzed by research, done by the Institute for Social Policy and understanding around how are black Christians experiencing or perceiving, their biases, attitudes about Muslims in general. And through this research, we found that black Christians have many. Complex thoughts about who we're right as family members, as neighbors. some of the key findings I'll state really quickly through focus groups, and individual interviews over, over a year from March, 2020 to June, 2021, showed that family media and pop culture. And community were the three primary influences on black Christian views of Muslims. Those black Christian views were specifically related to their relationships and experiences primarily with other black people who are Muslim. So what we found is that based on. Those responses to our questions right around what is your early experience of Muslims? Like, who do you know, who are you connected to? what's shaping your attitudes, right? Your beliefs about Muslims. What we found kind of, I think what summarized is that work in a nutshell is, the phenomenon of high familiarity and low knowledge. So my cousin is a Muslim. I got, my good girlfriend down the street, right? Like I know Muslims, right? High familiarity, right? I know these people, right? They're connected to me in so many different ways, but low knowledge when it comes to Islam, right? So, I know you're a Muslim, but I don't know what you believe. I know you are a Muslim, but I am actually very, ignorant of even the history of Islam in this country. Ignorant of the history of Islam in West Africa, right? And so. There's this sense of like, I know who you are, right? Like, oh, you're my man. You're my homie, my girlfriend. But I don't know what you believe. I don't know why you pray that way. and there's this sense that our shared racial identity is sufficient enough for us to build our relationship on, right? And in fact. Talk of spiritual diversity diminishes our shared connection, our sense of unity. And so what we responded to in gathering that information from black Christians was a request from black Christians. We need to know more. We need to understand better what you believe and how that informs how you live. And we need to do a better job of appreciating the contributions of black Muslims in society, right? not just in terms of the Muslim community, but in society. and I will never forget one of our black Christian, pastors, he said, I am a better Christian because of Islam. Right When I understand the ways that Muslims actually challenge me to live my faith in a very sincere way, because I see how devout and disciplined and focused they are. I. I, I have to match. And this is what even Islam teaches us. Like you compete in righteousness.

That's right. And

so when you said I'm a better Christian because of Islam, and how do we help other black Christians understand our shared connection, but also the biases, right? And the attitudes and assumptions about Islam that we have because of our own Christian privilege. So to be, for a black Christian, to be in a position of being a racial minority, And having that history, that shared history of violence, Of discrimination, but also having religious privilege at the same time. How is it informed the way that I interact and assume, and also share power with those who. are in my community, but worship differently. so the exploring black Christian views of American Muslims, again, some of the, I think, dynamic work that, I have felt called to do and just appreciate how much it has elevated some of the nuances around race and religion and power. Right, and community.

one of the things that I would mention, and I would love to, hear your take on this, The responses from some have been, we're all black. Let's just focus on our blackness. Yes. But in that there is also a removal of a very important component and element of our survival and our thriving. And that is our spirituality, our of being able to see ourselves beyond, the physical self and our connection, right connection to God. However, in whatever names we, we call on God. So do you also see in this an invitation to kind of reimagine the way that we see ourselves in one another more completely as spiritual beings and find what is that actual connection?

Absolutely 100%. I think this conversation around black Christian views, but also of privilege, of bias, of what, what has caused division. and conflict within communities, is one I think for us to correct the history. and that's, our communities have always included spiritual diversity. we weren't all kidnapped and enslaved here as Christians. And so even when we shared that about scholars have said that about a third of enslaved Africans were Muslim. So how many of us in our communities are descendant of people who called themselves Muslim? And to be able to acknowledge and honor that lineage in the same way. That I honor and acknowledge the Christian lineage that also lives within me. and when I, I think that when we can do that, it gives us so much power rooted in the wisdom of all of those ancestors, the wisdom of those who, like you said, called God by many different names, but still influenced and informed how we retained. Our own humanity through that dehumanizing experience, right? It was all of these forms of praying to the creator, right? Praying for safety and protection and mercy from a creator, despite those circumstances and so. For us to, I think, set the record straight. That they have, part of the beauty and the power of our community has been this diversity. and when we diminish it and say, well, let's just focus on blackness, right? It's like, well, you are assuming that black means one thing. That's

right.

You're assuming that there's no variation and we know that, all created us right as tribes so that we know one another. And so that, for me, that feels, not only does it diminish the potential power of our relationships currently. It Whitewashes history. Which proves, an accurate telling of who we are, right? As people who came to these ES as enslaved, was that. Muslims were there, they were part of the slave, enslaved uprisings. They were part of the resistance part of the people who, in whatever way possible, tried to retain those aspects of their identity. so let's honor all of it and not just a select portion. In doing so, I think it, we help. We can reclaim the power, some of the power that was stolen, and elevates us in terms of what can we do now, as a community to not just survive, but to thrive into the future.

I have to remember that I'm also wearing a different hat right now. So yes, I'm in my, I'm in my host and producer, mode. I acknowledge that also one of the hats that I wear is working with outreach with the Day of Learning project that you've led and are leading. there is a big event that is coming up, but more importantly, this is also a part of a string of events, a series of events where you are sharing. this information with our black Christian, brother and sisters, the family, right?

Yes.

could you say a few words about, about, an event that, that's coming up?

Yes. So our day of learning is in direct response to our black Christian, participants, right? Respondents who said, how can we know more? How can we do some really thoughtful introspection about our own positions and privilege and, lack of knowledge, right? how can we grow in that area? and so the day of learning, is just that, it's. Sharing about this research, the themes that emerged with other black Christians. and we are inviting on Saturday May 10th, inviting folks into a conversation and a dialogue, about not just these findings, but what does it mean for us now, right? to know and to grow with one another and to challenge each other, right? In helping to understand the ways that we have not been. As connected as we could be. And what kind of relationship building, and honesty and humility does it take for us to get to that point where, our bonds are strong and so that our shared commitments right to community building can happen more effectively. so May 10th, it's gonna be hosted by. Help me out on this one.

Grant. Grant Memorial.

Yes. Okay. and this is, I think exemplifies those kinds of, the kinds of curiosity and humility that. I think is essential for us to, as black Christians, Muslims, to come together and to say, we say that we have shared values, and commitment to community. Now what does it mean for us to really put a spotlight on those areas that we can improve? and so I'm really excited to lead this day of learning again, to talk about some of the research findings and also what do we do with what we know. I think this is the essential question. How do we continue to, dedicate time to activities that say, this is what I now know, and these are the action steps that are necessary in us in order for us to continue, to build, strong relationships to do the work. so May 10th, it is free. It is open. we want people to, again, to join in a spirit of humility and curiosity, and honesty, right? For this conversation around again, race and religion and community.

As a professor, can you tell folks about some of the classes that you teach? And, and before you do so, I wanna remind you, listening family. If you get yourself a subscription to Bayan on demand for $10 a month, you will be able to partake of these classes right at your leisure, on your schedule. And you can get in and listen and develop and benefit from, the scholarship, the education, the insight of Dr. Kameelah, along with, the rest of the, the Bayan, staff and faculty. But, so, Dr. Kameelah.

Yes. So I am an assistant professor of Psychology and Muslim studies at Chicago Theological Seminary and beyond Islamic Graduate school. I have been fortunate enough to one, be the first Muslim faculty member, at the institution. and the classes that I teach, ULA are. Really just rich ways for me to integrate the community work, the clinical work, understanding of context. and so I teach self-care and self-development for spiritual leaders. and this is the first class that I taught for band and is really a deep dive, truly and intensive, on understanding some of our. Early influences and relationships, self-concept that lead right us to answer this call, this tug, to serve community in this way and to realistically assess the kinds of boundaries and skills and communication that's necessary to sustain the leadership. it can be a very exhausting, taxing, difficult during

It was, it was, but beautiful, but so beautiful.

and this is, I tell folks, that if you join my self-care class, I can almost promise you it will be difficult. Yet incredibly rewarding. Yes. because what I'm asking of my students. Is to demonstrate a commitment to their own growth that is comparable to the commitment that they express to the community, right? So you are aware of your own needs and what's motivating, right? What unresolved issues are motivating the way in which you approach your role. If it's to be a martyr, to be sacrificial, to have no boundaries whatsoever, you will very quickly burn out. You will be of no good in service to anyone. and so I've taught this class for the last seven years. and so it's, I think the one class that I'm known for at Ban, and it is now required so you will not get through Ban Islamic graduate school without coming through my classroom. And I'll welcome you with open arms and some really hard questions. I also teach, a course called In Jesus name, the Psychology of Christian Hegemony and Religious Oppression in the United States. I teach, Pastoral theology and care, and a course called, Anti-Racism as Spiritual Practice, right? So again, thinking about how all of the traditions, that we can draw from within this context, can again, motivate and inspire, us to engage right as believers in social justice and equality. I teach about four, or five classes actually in the fall for the first time I'm leading the D.Min class, on ministry in the public square. So this will incorporate against some of the self-care aspects, but also what does it mean for us to lead again in this context, in this day and age, and to do so with integrity, right? Knowing some of the risks. but what I tell my students, especially in my anti-racism course, is, what white supremacy does is it attempts to position itself as God. And so when we're thinking about our commitments, our values, our principles, we must always be dedicated right to not white supremacy as God, not white supremacy, as sort of master, but to our commitments, right? As Muslims to Allah subhana'wa'tala' you cannot serve two masters, right?

That's right.

And so. To what and to whom are you devoted, must be the question that we ask ourselves, and what I would pose to our students as emerging leaders, right? Constantly asking yourself to what and to whom am I devoted, right? And in my devotion, in my service. What do I need in order to do that in a responsible and sustainable way? So for those who are thinking about coming to Bay, who, you have friends who are going and they tell you about their classes and you are like, Ooh, that sounds interesting. Stop waiting.

That's right. That's right. Just.

So sign up, the subscription for the classes. You can get a little flavor, a little tease about what it feels like to be in, band, classroom and an intensive. and then just do it. Just, stop hanging on your friends, be like, oh, can you email me the syllabus so I can buy the books That No, you yourself. That's right. You apply. what I have always, and I'll say this, it's the last thing. What I have always loved about Van is it's commitment to nurturing a diverse set of leaders and bringing in. Such, I mean, just reading sort of the faculty list, people who are affiliated with teaching, and providing this information and knowledge. you're learning from the very best, right? across many different, disciplines. and so when you have access to. Both, a faculty and a student community that is focused on learning and understanding how to live out right. Our, live out our faith in community with others who may not share it but being able to lead very in, in very relevant ways. I don't know where you can get Right. A better grounding and connection and community, of learners, but also educators. so again, for those who are kind of on the fence, well, I don't know, and I work full time and talk to somebody who's already a student. It is possible, and I would say it will be a decision you will never regret.

You heard it folks, Dr. Camilla movement, RA, she has laid it down. She has told you what it is, and I can say this as, as a student of her, of her class, the, self-care man. So of all of you who are already serving communities, matter of fact, in any leadership position, this is a must. A must take. you will definitely investigate yourself. You will figure out some things, but it will, and it's not gonna be easy, but it is absolutely worth it. So, Dr. Kameelah, I want to thank you again for taking the time to come on the American Muslim Podcast and to share absolutely a bit of your light with us. we pray that a lot continues to protect you, bless all of the work that you're doing, because we know. with your success, we successful right along with you, so thank you. Thank you so

much. It's always a pleasure.

All right, family. That is it for today's episode. I thank you for joining us for another edition of the American Muslim Podcast presented by Bayan on Demand. We thank our guest, Dr. Kameelah Mu'min Oseguera and we invite you to join our community of learners by going to bayan online.org and getting your very own all access pass to Bayan on demand. $10 a month gets you access to 30 classes. As a matter of fact, it's more than 30. We just added two new classes, and we'll continue to add and you'll still have it available to you for $10 a month. Alright, family. The last thing I want to throw at you is this. If you find value in these conversations, in the experiences that are shared by our guests, please share and subscribe. We want to continue to grow this platform, and we can only do that with your help. So if you find value and benefit, subscribe, share wherever you're at in whatever platform. I think that's it for me. We will see you again next week inaha'Allah. With God's permission, I leave you as I greeted you, As Salaamu Alaikum may the peace that only God can give be upon you.