Hey guys, thank you so much for tuning in to our first episode of the whole Church Science fair where TJ and I, Joshua Knoll, are going to do just kind of an intro to the series.

We discuss a lot about evolution, the Big Bang, geology, the age of the earth, and the kind of typical things that cause people to think there is a rift between faith and science.

In this upcoming episode, however, we tried a different setup just because of circumstances and in short, it worked pretty well for TJ's audio.

Mine came in a little, a little choppy.

My audio does some clipping, so if I sound a little different in this episode, it's just because we tried something new.

It didn't quite work out as well as we thought.

I still think this episode is totally worth your time and we focus a little bit more on evolution than I planned.

That is not what this series is going to be about, but I do think this is really important discussion to help frame why people think faith and science are at odds for the upcoming episodes we will be doing as part of this series.

So please tune in.

Forgive the audio, Fumble and I.

Guys, I really hope you enjoy the episode and consider sharing it.

All the good stuff.

Thank you again so much for your time and we can't wait to get this science fair started.

Psalm 111 verses 1 through 5 in the new American Standard Bible I will exalt the Lord with all my heart in the council of the upright and in the assembly.

Great are the works of the Lord they are pondered by all who delight in glorious and majestic are his deeds, and his righteousness endures forever.

He has caused his wonders to be remembered.

The Lord is gracious and compassionate he provides food for those who fear Him.

He remembers his covenant forever.

Psalm 111 is a wisdom psalm of praise.

After the section that we just read, the psalm continues to discuss God's covenants in the wisdom of following his ways.

Connecting the study of creation, Wisdom and Obedience to worship TJ Blackwell the Great how might this appreciation of studying and obedience as worship help bring the church closer to God and one another?

Well, I think in today's church a lot of people will misconstrue worship as just singing and dancing in your congregation.

At least we know we dance in my church.

At least.

I don't know about the rest of y' all sorry Baptist listeners, but I I feel like expanding the view of worship to include obedience and study really opens up the door to people who either are are less able to attend their congregation or less comfortable.

You know, being expressive in that way, which I'm not here to point fingers anymore.

But, you know, a lot of people.

Are like that when they're, you know, kind of shy.

So I think it'll be very helpful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And obedience isn't always like, oh, it gave us rules and we did it.

Sometimes it's like, you know, I love tj and part of my relationship with TJ is I wouldn't say obedience, but it's like, hey, I. I know that when I'm making a shirt that says tj quote on the back, making the only color options of black and purple is a form of me showing my appreciation to tj, not worship.

But, yeah, I think similar concept.

And you have to make sure there's nothing on the back.

Yeah, correct.

Hey, guys, welcome to the whole Church science fair.

Earlier this year, you know, we did the whole church job fair.

We got to see how different people's work impacted how they viewed God, worship, etc.

And just talking to regularly people in their workplace.

Well, now we're going to talk to some scientists about science.

We're going to do a science fair to continue our fair theme that wasn't intentional, but you guys can pretend like it is so that we feel smart.

Yeah.

And you know, it's about fair season anyway.

So true.

Almost time for the state fair.

Yeah, maybe that's next.

Whole church state fair.

I'm just kidding, but.

Or am I?

No.

We are excited for this series, though.

We are going to be discussing stuff like creation, evolution, abortion, lgbtq.

We're gonna all that kind of stuff.

But we're also going to be talking to people about who are just like marine biologists and be like, hey, how does the study of the wildlife under the sea help you see God better?

And we're going to try and focus more on that.

And all the while doing that, we're going to make sure we're looking to church unity because there are a lot of splits in the church over, like, the age of the earth, how we view evolution, all this kind of stuff.

So they are also relevant to church unity.

We're not just doing science because, ooh, science is a fun hot topic, but we're also doing it to announce a new podcast.

It's going to be on the Unazole podcast network soon called your Matter Matters.

And we're going to talk a little bit about that today as well.

In your intro episode to the series, of course, I have to introduce to you that voice you heard several times already, the one and only tj.

Tiberius Juan.

Yeah, Tiberius Juan Blackwell.

He.

If you didn't know, he's going to be going to Theology Beer Camp before this is released.

And we were both invited.

He was able to go.

For those who maybe don't know this, Minnesota didn't exist until Tripp invited TJ to go to Minnesota.

Yeah, it just became a state as they invited TJ to it.

All you Vikings fans, wild fans.

It was all psychosis.

But he mentioned earlier, the Onzale Podcast network website link is below.

Check it out.

Check us out.

Check out shows that are like ours and shows that aren't like ours.

But, you know, you can also pay to support us on fourth wall.

You know, you know the deal, you know the spiel.

I'm not going to give it all to you every time.

Yeah, yeah, but that fourth wall, sorry, it's in the show description.

I didn't write it on this outline.

I'm sorry.

But in the show's description, you can do all kinds of stuff over there.

You can tip, donate, look at some of the merch.

And we have a special T shirt out for the science fair that's exclusive.

So once we're done recording these and done posting them up, I'll give you all a week taking it down.

It won't exist anymore.

Unless you're an official whole church member on the site.

Then you'll still have access to it.

Yep, that's right.

And you heard it here first.

We are officially creating a scarcity economy for the merchandise.

Sorry.

Check what makes Unity possible.

Scarcity.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, man.

Now, as always, we do like to have a silly question to start the real show off, because you can't have division if you're being as united.

As silly as I like to be, Unity happens at words, guys.

Words are difficult.

Why?

I don't do podcasts.

Words are hard.

Oh, wait.

Anyway, in.

In the Disney verse.

In the Disney verse, you know, you have Uncle Scrooge.

You have all, like, the.

The duck characters.

One duck is Ludwig von Drake, who was basically like Disney's Bill Nye the Science Guy, and he would just kind of explain science somewhat poorly, somewhat accurately, always hilariously.

Anyway, yeah, Ludwig von Drake, Bill Nye, Science Duck, basically.

I want to know.

Tj, Both of us will answer, but I want you to go first.

How would you like to see Disney use his character today?

Like, if they were to bring him, like, on a Disney plus shorts series, what do you want to see Ludwig of von Drake do?

I mean, I think pretty much nailed it, honestly, if they Just bought the rights to Bill Nye.

Yeah.

You know, as a series, as a franchise, and replaced all of Bill Nye with love, Rich Von Drake.

I think that would make money, make it more palatable to kids these days and their famously smaller attention spans because, look, the duck is colorful.

I. I didn't feel bad.

I forgot the kids were.

Were part of this equation at all, because my brain's like, I really want them to just do stupid, controversial stuff for no reason.

Like, it's just Ludwig von Drake explaining what vaccines are.

Yeah.

Like, you know, like, all right, let me just tell you.

This is what a vaccine is.

Stop.

Yeah, and that's what I wanted.

It's not to say that he's.

You know, they still use him every.

Once in a while.

Who.

Or I think what would be really fun, actually, they could do a series of Ludwig Mondrake explaining the science of Star wars and just doing it in such a way where he's like, wait a minute, none of that makes sense.

Just every time.

I think it'd be great because, you know, Disney has Star Wars.

I might as well make fun of it.

Yeah, we should do what I would do.

You know, make fun of it until the science is real.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Good stuff.

But, yeah.

Yeah, that's all my thoughts.

Yep.

Yeah, I think we're geniuses.

I'm ducked out.

Let's duck and go.

Let's.

Let's duck and go.

So we are going to discuss our personal histories with faith and science.

So, Josh, you're going to go first, because I don't want to.

Tell me about your journey with faith and science.

You know, what's interesting is I never saw it as a tension between faith and science.

I saw it as like, the people that aren't in the church are all bad guys.

So they have, like, bad guy science where they're trying to say evolution's correct in the Grand Canyon, wasn't caused by the flood.

And, you know, I don't know what else, but, like, it was stuff like that to me.

But, like, I was still taught that we like science.

We just like real science that shows that the Grand Canyon was created by the flood, which it wasn't real.

Real science that shows that evolution's bad.

Literally.

I had, like, one of my.

This was.

This is like, for.

For context in high school, you know, I was homeschooled.

One of the, like, a whole year of my science for, like, biology was basically just all the ways you can use science to show that evolution isn't true.

Then I went To a public college.

My first science class was biodiversity.

I was not prepared to say the least.

Yeah, I was very publicly schooled.

I was.

Not that that was the only.

Honestly, everything else I feel like I did great.

I probably did better than a lot of other people because I learned how to like study for myself.

But specifically in that area, I really had to like relearn a lot of stuff because, like, even at the time, even though I didn't agree with it, I had to at least know it well enough to pass the class if I was going to do anything in science, which I didn't because the only thing I learned about evolution was that it was, it was bad and science, real science, doesn't like it.

But, you know, I was always taught to appreciate science.

It was just how we viewed science was a little bit different than how the rest of the world did, I guess.

I guess that's how I would explain it.

How about.

How about you?

Yeah, none of that.

Pretty much.

I was.

And we grew up in the same church for code decks.

That's why.

That's funny.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we, we are part of the same denomination for 20 something years.

Just because I'm 20 something years old, I never, I was never like forced to choose between faith and science.

I was very scientific young kid.

One of my first, the first chapter book I read was about dinosaurs.

And not in like a cool fantasy like dinosaur story kind of way.

It was, it was about dinosaur facts and how they lived 65 million years ago to, you know, 600 million years ago.

And all those things that don't exactly comply with creationist point of view or at least most of the creationist points of view.

So for me, I was never introduced to faith and science as oppositional.

Science was always explaining God's ways to me.

They've always been intertwined as far as I've been concerned.

Yeah, yeah.

I always put the line, all truth is God's truth.

But then we would say that to be like, that's how we know this science isn't real, because the Bible says otherwise.

What's funny is, even when I started coming out of that, going to other churches, they would say, all truth is God's truth and use that same line.

But it was like to be like, this is how we know that evolution is just as true as everything else because God wouldn't lie to us.

And that's how we know the Bible isn't talking about this.

And it's like still the same line.

All truth is God's truth.

It's just so.

Yeah.

Different churches use it differently.

And it's actually kind of funny.

I.

You know, growing up, I'm like, yep, evolution.

That's what I ascribe to.

I. I believe it has happened.

And I believe the creation story does fit with that because I think it's metaphorical.

I never talked about that out loud because it.

Everything just seemed really obvious to me as a kid.

So, like, I didn't have a lot of theological questions.

I learned things and I was like, okay, that's how that works.

Cool.

I'm not gonna go any further into that because I know it now.

So when I got to college, well, that was the first time I ever went to a Christian anything.

So we had exact opposite.

Yeah, we had completely different experiences.

I went to North Greenville Christian College, biolab.

And we are first day of biolab talking about how humans and dinosaurs coexisted and evolution is not real.

So that was.

I mean, yeah, you watched the Flintstones.

You should have known that.

Yeah, I did.

I did.

I was.

I was a bigger Jetsons fan, unfortunately.

Yeah, yeah.

So I missed out on that.

It was.

It was either the Beverly Hillbillies or the Jetsons and Petticoat Junction if I was at my cousin's house.

Yeah, naturally.

That's really funny how we had just opposite with that.

But what is cool though, I remember as a kid I did have like a.

Like, I love dinosaur phase two.

I loved.

What's funny is I wouldn't watch the Jurassic park movies, but as a kid we went Thailand's adventure that has like the Jurassic park land.

So, like, I love dinosaurs.

I would read books about dinosaurs and my parents are like, yeah, hey, everything except for the parts about how old things are is correct.

I'm like, sweet.

So I just learned it almost like.

Yeah, they just got that part wrong.

It wasn't a big deal to me.

It wasn't like we hated science or ignored it.

They were just like, not all of it's right.

But yeah, yeah, I. I have changed my views.

What's funny is I didn't change my views until like, the entire time I was in a public college.

I still was like, yep, no, evolution's probably not true.

I think I still kind of knew the Earth was older than 6,000 years, and I had a hard time with that one.

But it wasn't until I went to a Christian college, actually.

I went to Charleston Southern and I was reading Hermeneutics.

I had a little bit of a rough spell in my personal life.

I came across some Books.

Some other books about hermeneutics, like from P. Dens and them.

And I was like, wait a minute, maybe we're not doing this right.

And then I kind of slowly change my beliefs.

It wasn't like an overnight.

Oh, I realized I was wrong.

It was more of a maybe this doesn't matter.

For a long time, my line was, this doesn't matter, actually.

So I don't need to have a stance.

Which is not ridiculous.

Yeah.

Not ridiculous to say to some people, this doesn't matter.

Yeah.

And I still don't think I needed to have a stance on it.

It was just eventually I was like, man, the science is overwhelming.

And now saying I don't have a stance on it is just a lie.

Like, I've seen too much to not have a stance on it.

I wasn't even trying to think about this particular issue.

It just kind of thrown in my face so much that eventually I was like, oh, okay.

Well, seems like evolution has to be a thing.

Yeah.

I do feel like if during Sunday school, one of our teachers had been like, hey, here's the genealogy.

The earth is 6,000 years old.

Then I might have had a problem growing up.

Yeah, that makes sense.

But no one ever did that.

So it never, never occurred to me to read the Bible and be like, some of these years don't add up.

I'm pretty sure the year, it's older than that.

Yeah.

Yeah, man.

That's funny, though.

So has there anything that you were taught in your faith that, like, ever challenged some of your views on silent science or, like, vice versa?

Have you ever had that where, like, no.

You knew one thing, and then all of a sudden you were introduced to, like, when you went to school, and they were like, evolution is not real.

Did any of that ever, like, challenge you or were you just kind of.

No, I, I.

So I accepted that evolution was only a theory when I was, like, 11.

And then it may not be completely true because, you know, technically it is still a theory, but I've never.

To me, the newest information is the most, most correct information.

It's been that way forever.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The thing is, like, science is always trying to prove itself wrong, so it will change.

And I remember when I was in those, like, young Earth creationist circles, and we were always trying to be like, oh, evolution is not true.

We'd find places like, see, they said they were wrong about that.

They don't really know what they're talking about.

It's like, no, that's, like, the whole point of science is they're always trying to prove themselves wr strong and learn more and grow, which is really what we should all be doing.

But anyway, I digress.

Yeah, I don't know, man.

It's so weird to me because it did challenge me.

I just didn't press it, you know, I think for me, one of the big turning points, even though it was still like a slow, gradual thing, was kind of like when they explained the thing about, you know, it being a theory of evolution.

And it's like, wow, that's different than a hypothesis.

Theory is a law.

I mean, that's how it works.

It's like gravity.

I'm like, oh, that.

That for me was probably the biggest.

The first time I remember being like, oh, wait.

Because my whole life they're like, theory, that means they don't know.

And I was like, well, see, that's not what theory means.

And then all of a sudden I had to struggle with it a little bit more.

But still, I really tried not to have stance until I just kind of did one day.

I don't know.

Yeah, yeah.

There is a difference between having a theory and something being a theory.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Even though this sounds confusing.

Yeah, yeah.

So for this series, we are asking all of our guests to step into the whole church lab.

We'll ask a rapid series of science adjacent questions alternating from four different categories.

They are biblical, religious, everyday and mythical.

And see what they can tell us in the next five minutes.

This, of course, is the intro, which means today it is Josh's turn to participate.

So.

And TJ will at the end so you can have the correct answer.

So.

Yeah, yeah, anticipate that.

Yeah, I get all of the advantages.

I do.

So are you ready, Josh?

Probably not, but let's do it anyway.

So.

So when Jesus turned the water into wine, what actually happened on a molecular level?

I feel like, man, I have no idea.

My brain wants to just say that he kind of like swapped the wine out and now like.

And this.

Maybe this is because.

I just think this would be the funniest version.

Somewhere else, someone was drinking some really nice wine that got turned into water at the same time.

Like Jesus just, you know.

Yeah, because that just sounds like the funniest version.

So that's what I'm going with.

Yeah, Substitution, not substantiation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That would, you know, not instance.

Not ridiculous.

So if a Muslim were to call to prayer, or if a Muslim call to prayer were broadcast from the International Space Station, how would they know which way to face Mecca?

I Think they would have to go to one of their spiritual leaders for that?

Primarily because, you know, usually they bow their head and face the direction of Mecca, but the problem is the direction of Mecca is already going to be down, ideally.

So do you bow your head and look down?

That doesn't really make sense.

So I think they're just going to have to speak to one of their spiritual directors or maybe read a Ms. Marvel comic where she's in space, and maybe that'll help.

Yeah, we'll see what happens.

Yeah.

So is there anything that Icarus could have done that would have kept his wax wings from melting as he got closer to the sun?

That sounds like one of those questions that I came up with because I was bored and I would text to TJ to see what the answer is.

So maybe we'll find out later.

Yeah, maybe we'll find out many, many episodes from now.

But you probably will, because I was pretty tempted to answer it when I read it.

So why do some foods taste better reheated while others taste worse?

Some foods are superior.

I just hate to tell everyone Thanksgiving food is simply superior to tacos.

That's why.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So which micro and macronutrients would mana have to have for the Israelites to survive on it alone 40 years, as described in the biblical tale?

And how many calories would they need to consume of the manna per day?

The calories thing is just like, almost.

I don't know why.

Why that was in the question.

I wrote the question.

But, like, that has more to do with how much activity they're doing.

They're a lot.

In the wilderness, they're doing a lot.

They're probably a lot of calories.

My brain wants to think that mana can't be as bread, like, as a lot of us want it to think of it as, Because I think it has to have protein.

Like, most of your macronutrients are going to need to be there.

I know bacon.

Pork actually has most of the vitamins you need in it.

So maybe it's more like pork than we think.

Because, you know, pigs just eat everything and it gets stored in their fat.

It also has a lot of bad stuff.

So maybe it's like pork with all the vitamins and stuff stored, but none of the bad stuff that gets stored into the fat.

Right.

But also would still have to have some carbohydrates.

I don't know, man.

Right.

He's got to be some kind of weird food.

Do you think pigs of the time would have the same nutritional Makeup.

Oh, almost definitely not.

Especially in that area.

Right.

Yeah, that's good.

Good point.

Not trying to poke any holes.

I'm just.

I'm just saying.

I don't know.

No, I'm just saying.

So what's the best scientific metaphor for the Christian concept of the Trinity or the Hindu idea of Brahman?

You know, I kind of want to say you'd have to go probably to protons, electrons, and neutrons, and not in, like, a sense of, like, oh, the three are what make one.

And more a sense of a.

None of them mean anything without their relationship to one another.

And I think that's true of God in the Trinity.

I think that's true of us humans to one another, and certainly true of, like, the how the gods work in Hindu religion, where they're all different gods, but they're all also the same God.

Like, I think it just makes more sense.

So we have different parts, but we're not defined by the part, but by the relationship.

So we're nearing the end of our five minutes.

So, Josh, what's with the beach and the lagoon in spongebob?

Why is goo Lagoon there, man?

They're already underwater, man.

This irritates me to no end.

Still haven't heard a good answer to this.

I have no idea.

The best thing I've heard is it has to do with, like, salt deposits in the.

In the ocean.

Like, there's different, like, thickness of water.

So it could be something like that.

I just can't wait to hear TJ answer this at the end, because I think he probably actually knows.

I do.

I do know.

I hope you tell me after we record.

I'm just gonna have to wait.

No, I want to know after the episodes.

I'm just gonna have to wait until we record.

What if we.

We save it the whole time and we just make that the pat?

TJ tells us the actual answer.

That's what we'll do.

That'd be funny.

That's what we'll do.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Not Patreon anymore.

Members.

The whole church.

Members get that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So way to go.

You survived the whole church lab.

I am shocked.

Yeah.

How do you feel?

Like dying.

Yeah.

Well, I feel enlightened.

I think that was IO.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So moving on.

One of the big markers for the American church's relationship to the scientific community is the Scopes Monkey trial.

We are not experts on this, but we wanted to discuss this trial for context to the upcoming series, as we feel it is very relevant.

Josh, take it away.

Yeah.

Again, not Experts.

But we can't not talk about this if we're going to be talking about faith and science.

So it was in 1925.

It was July 21, which is my brother's birthday.

Anyway, 1925 is when the trial takes place, which I thought was case.

I tried to look it up.

It was basically completely mal.

It was just created.

None of the stuff was really real.

They just wanted to have a legal case.

Yeah, literally.

So John Scopes is the teacher.

He's in Dayton, Tennessee.

He was a science teacher.

There was a law at the time that was basically, yeah, you can't teach evolution in school because that's saying the Bible's not true and you're getting into religion.

And I don't even know what it was he actually taught.

But even when he reported himself, he reported himself, mind you.

He was like, I might have taught evolution.

I'm not sure.

So the whole thing was just.

They just wanted to have the trial.

They just didn't have anything going on.

For real.

Yeah.

Anyway, so the people that we need to know from here, John Scopes was.

He was with Clarence Darrow, however you say that name was, representing him in the case.

He was arguing for academic freedom and for scientific integrity so that we should be allowed to teach evolution school.

We don't have to say it's the only truth, but that's the thing.

So that's.

It was really weird.

So the evolution was the free speech side, which is pretty much the opposite of what we see in most cases today.

The religious side was the one that was trying to go against free speech, basically.

And you have William Jennings Bryan, who was a three times presidential candidate, devout Christian, who was arguing for the state that, you know, they trying to persecute John Scopes for teaching evolution in school.

He's saying we shouldn't teach that.

It's saying that the Bible's not wrong.

You're crossing freedom of religion when you do that, all this kind of stuff.

William Jennings Bryan was one of the more progressive Christians who were really afraid of evolution being taught in school because of eugenics.

At the time, that was like a big fear.

So at that time, your more progressive Christians were the ones that were the most afraid of evolution being taught.

It just didn't have anything to do with Young Earth doctrine or anything like that.

It had to do with, hey, eugenics is bad.

We're afraid of that.

So let's not teach evolution.

Yeah, it almost feels like it's a product of its time.

Time wherein the church was, you know, enforcing A lot of doctrine law.

Yeah.

In America at the time, such as prohibition, that type of thing is what we're talking about.

Which kind of feels like to me the end of the church as an oppressive force which they've known to.

To be.

Historically speaking, there's only a few crusades about it, but.

Only a few.

Yeah, only a few.

Yeah.

But Jennings Bryant, for those who don't know, three times presidential candidate, Democrat each time strong Christian Democrat.

Yeah.

So I just think for context when we're especially thinking about Christian unity, it's just interesting to put in perspective that the Democrat Christians give this progressive Christian.

We have Democrats.

Those are the ones going against both freedom of speech but also going against evolution, which is wild to think about in today's world 100 years later.

Yeah.

Which you know, happy 103rd birthday to Scopes Trial Scopes.

Yeah.

Like it just add the 100 year anniversary.

Recently they did some shows, did anniversary stuff for it.

That's not what we're trying to do.

We just realized we can't talk about the relationship faith and science without this.

Because it wasn't until after this point that a lot of the fear mongering around Christianity be taken out of school was really prevalent in America.

Before this point there was a paper that was like fundamental.

The fundamentalist papers of Christianity.

And it was like this paper trying to combat evangelicalism because evangelicals were more progressive than fundamental Christians.

So the fundamentalists had their own papers and among them were some creation evolutionists were actually some of the people who wrote in there.

They didn't write about creation evolution, but they were writing in there because that wasn't like at the time, that wasn't a marker that disqualified you from being a fundamentalist Christian.

Mm, I see.

Yeah.

So anyway, moving on, I want to bring out some of some of the big actors to kind of again unpack the story.

So there's two different stories.

You have the scoped monkey trial.

That's really important to the story.

Also, weirdly enough, there's a timeline we need to go through.

You can check the Holy Post.

We've had some of the hosts from that show on here before.

They have a really good video kind of laying this out better.

We're not experts.

We just want to give you guys some of the basics.

And we're talking about faith and science, especially for those of us in America.

But this is relevant outside of America for this one.

So we're gonna go through some of this lineage from the beginnings of the Seventh Day Adventists all the way through to today with BioLogos, Answers in Genesis, Ken Ham, Francis Collins, all that, because there's a pretty straight line.

I think it's really interesting stuff.

So again, do some of this research yourself because we're just barely touching the surface here.

So Ellen G. White, woman who was a visionary authoritary authority of the Seventh Day Adventist, she was the co founder of the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

She would have these visions of the beginning of creation, of the flood and she was like, hey, I had a vision, I saw it.

I know for a fact that the earth is 6,000 years old because I saw it.

And when I had my vision there was a little timestamp that said when it happened.

I don't know why her having the vision let her know exactly how old the earth is.

That part I'm a little fuzzy on.

Yeah, well she forgot to mention that she was also 6015 years old.

Oh yeah.

Oh man.

Anyway, I'm not trying to make fun of it because like we have some Seven Day Adventists that I'm friends with.

Like, I'm not trying to say this isn't Christian, but some of this stuff to me seems a little far fetched.

I'll say that, you know, people who don't agree with young earth creationism, it's, it's hard to be as subjective as I would like to be kind of going through some of this history, but I'm going to do my best in her visions.

Part of why that's important, why they're called the Seventh Day Adventist, is because she saw that there was a literal six day creation and then God rested on the seventh day.

That was literal.

She saw it happen in a vision.

And that's why they take the Sabbath day, the seventh day, super serious.

And that's the name Seventh Day Adventist.

Right.

As such, the founding of their church kind of rested on this literal six day creation, which to them means you have to read the whole Bible, literally including the genealogies, which is what ages the earth, etc.

Etc.

You kind of see where that's going.

Then comes George McGreedy Price, fun name.

He comes around the time like 1920, 1940s.

Geology is kind of making some big splashes and kind of is able to age some rocks and fossils and stuff.

They're like, hey, actually this is how old the earth is.

Which pisses their church off as well as other Christians because that goes against their literal reading.

Yeah.

Which quick side note, for the record, your early Christian debates, the literal reading arguments were the opposite.

So this Is kind of fun.

If you see like Augustine, the reason he didn't think it could be literal is because there's no way the earth is 6,000 years old.

That's way too old.

He was arguing for a younger earth than 6,000 and that's why he didn't read it.

Literally.

Yeah.

To me, geology's always been about making a big splash.

Well, what's oceanography about?

A bigger splash.

Oh man.

So anyway, you get a huge splash.

George McGree Price, he's part of the Seventh Day Adventist.

He's confirming he is part of that group that's kind of reacting to geology, saying the earth is older than their theology allows it to be.

Their theology, specifically the Seventh Day Adventist theology cannot be correct as well as an old earth.

So he develops what's called flood geology where he shows that geology isn't showing how old the earth is, but instead it proves that there is a flood.

And you might have seen some videos from this from like Ken Ham answers in Genesis, that kind of stuff.

Most of that science has been debunked.

It's very faulty.

That is not how science works.

Even if you think the earth is young blood, geology is just.

I'd say it's objectively incorrect.

Is that fair, TJ or am I being harsh?

I mean, I feel like that's fair.

I mean, I feel.

I don't feel comfortable saying anything is objectively incorrect, honestly.

Like we're one, one solid discovery away from everything being wrong that we know currently.

That's fair.

But I think it's wrong.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Anyway, there isn't any science to date that seems to support it that is actually using the scientific method.

Yeah, that's exactly okay.

Yeah, but he writes the 1923 book, whatever essay, the New Geology.

He kind of explains his geology.

Then you have Henry Morris and John Whitcomb, neither of which are Seventh Day Adventists.

But they are both influenced by that book, the New geology by George McGrady Price.

And the affirm, they say point blank that that is what inspired their book the Genesis Flood that they wrote in 1961.

So mind you, up until this point, this is still mostly Seventh Day Adventist.

It's not like main Protestant thinking, Main evangelical thinking really isn't anti evolution.

Up until this point, 1961, they write the Genesis Flood arguing for that literal flood thing and how the flood's proving geology wrong, etc.

So geology is really playing a bigger role than evolution at this point.

Evolution is like the side idea that has to be cast out because of the age of the earth, which goes back to geology, which is like the main concern for a lot of these people.

In 1970 they find the Institute for Creation and Research in that institution in Australia is where Ken Ham shows up.

He learns from Henry Morris, John Whitcomb, all of this following the lineage straight from Seventh Day Adventists to here.

Ken Ham learned from them and then in 1994 is when he finds he starts his answers in Genesis.

And this is when it really becomes a big deal.

It really is a line drawn in the sand.

1994, after answers in Genesis, you're either a Christian who believes the Bible, which means you take a six day literal creation, all this stuff that started the Seventh Day Adventist, or you're.

You don't actually believe the Bible if you believe evolution.

And a lot of that started with Ken Ham answers in Genesis 1994.

Pretty, pretty darn recent.

I was alive, very recent I wasn't.

Yeah.

So a lot of people will state either Ken Ham's answers in Genesis in 1994 or the the John Wickham Henry Morris book Genesis Flood as the beginning of modern young earth creationism.

YEC as it's called.

So again, even if you go with the 1961 one that's not even 50 years old, it is not like a long standing Christian doctrine that is 60 years old.

Correct.

I don't know how to math.

Yeah, but it's not, it's not old enough to be a long standing Christian doctrine.

Correct?

Yeah.

But if you do want to hear more about like the creation ideas, geology flood, that whole thing, we've done an episode on it in the past.

It's been quite a while.

I do not remember what it's called.

If you're lucky, Josh might find the link and put it in the show.

If we're lucky, yeah.

Really lucky.

Pretty sure it was dividing scriptures, something great.

That sounds right.

But then 2007 we have a new movement within Christianity, even amongst evangelicals becoming popular to trying to take science a little bit more serious.

We have Francis Collins stepping up and finding what's called biologus.

We've shared stuff from them and supported a lot of the stuff that Bias Logist wrote before.

But we've also had someone who works for answers in Genesis on the show before.

So we're not trying to do only showing one side instead of the other.

We try to show both.

But to be honest with you guys, we do kind of fall more in line with Francis Collins and some of the harder science that seems to be more Popularly accepted.

Yeah.

Us personally.

Yeah.

So, yeah, that's basically the story.

There's a lot of back and forth and a lot of politics involved.

And if without that one person having visions and starting the Seventh Day Adventist, we don't have any of it.

What is a man without vision?

The.

The name of the vision.

No.

What is a man without vision?

Oh, blind.

Ah.

I thought the answer was Ellen G. White.

Yeah.

I do want to also bring up some of the other theologians.

So you're not just following this timeline.

I kind of want to give an idea because again, even though modern young Earth creationism was like 1961, maybe 2000, whatever, there have been different views before this.

A lot of the progressive Christians that I'm friends with, even who try to make this argument like young Earth belief didn't exist until then, that's just not true.

Young earth beliefs existed since Christianity existed.

They just took different flavors, different views.

There was just also old Earth creations been around since Christianity existed and again for different reasons because evolution wasn't around that whole time.

Right.

But ever since evolution was started, you had creation evolutionist.

You've had people who were like, nope, the Bible's literal.

We're going to take it this way.

Before evolution was founded, we had, and we've talked about this in a different episode, atomism.

Way back when with the Greeks, we had Christians, like I mentioned earlier, Augustine, who thought the earth was younger than the Bible said because there's no way that that story is meant to be literal.

All kinds of different views.

So it's just fall like it is.

I will say it's objectively untrue to say that there's been one solid view on the age of the earth or creation since creation, since Christianity started.

That's just not the case.

It's just not real.

Yeah, I just.

I don't know.

Augustine cracks me up because he's like, dude, that's way too many years.

6,000.

That's so many years.

Can't even count to 6,000.

Realistic.

So funny.

Oh, man.

So some people I wanted to shout out because I think some of these might be surprising.

Some of these might give people permission to feel like they're not crazy for being in one camp or the other.

We'll see John Stott, famous theologian, who.

He actually started the London Institute for Contemporary Christianity, kind of going into the importance of science.

And we had a Ernest C. Lucas on the show recently who's actually a part of that institution today.

He was an Anglican.

He was an Old Earth guy.

He believed Theistic evolution.

But he wasn't like firm on it.

He was like soft on that.

I'm pretty sure that's probably right.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's relatable.

Yeah.

Famously.

To disagree with him on other things.

Also disagreed with him on.

This is Martin Lloyd Jones.

You know, I like to quote him.

I like Martin Lloyd Jones.

He was a great guy.

He also believed the earth was young.

He believed it had to be a six day creation.

He wasn't firm on some of the details, but he said Darwinism, Darwin's view of evolution cannot be true because the Bible, the way the Bible tells the story, that doesn't make sense.

He says the earth has to be young because of the Bible, that kind of stuff.

But he was open to being wrong about some things, but he was not open to being wrong about the Bible being literal on some of these stories.

Still, Billy Graham, he was a little bit closer to evolution than the other.

He leaned towards science, but he never took a firm stance.

He did say though he did not believe that the Bible was telling a literal story of a six day creation.

He just never took a firm stance one way or the other though.

Tim Keller, big fan of him.

Miss him.

We've talked about him a lot on the show.

He affirmed the big bank.

He affirmed evolution.

But he also stood firm on a literal Adam and Eve and the story of Genesis being a literal history starting at like chapter two or three on John Piper says old Earth is possible.

He completely denies though the Darwin model of evolution.

He says, you know, maybe something else could be true, but that specific model isn't coherent with the Bible.

But maybe there's something else true about evolution.

So he's a little open to being different on that.

But he's mostly going to stand against Darwinist evolution.

And I feel like what gets overlooked a lot here is some people really just he was.

Darwin was very unlikable.

A lot of people really just didn't like him.

Yeah, like what kind of name is as a person?

Charles.

And call him Chuck.

Come on.

So I do think that actually does color quite a few people's opinions on his ideas of, you know, derministic evolution.

But not like, not so much, you know.

Yeah.

Do you think that's why the God in supernatural is named Chuck?

You think it has to with the Charles Darwin?

Definitely.

Yeah.

That's kind of funny.

I never thought of that.

C.S.

lewis, for those wondering, he was a creation evolutionist.

He never talked about it like he never wrote about that topic, but he would use evolution as an example because he just assumed it was correct.

He was in the TJ camp of, like, I just assumed that was true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tolkien, on the other hand, he believed that the earth was old and round.

He made sure people knew that he knew the earth was round.

He was pretty silent on evolution, though.

You know, he was a good Catholic.

He believed what the Catholic Church said.

So Catholic Church never affirmed evolution in his life.

He just.

You just didn't talk about it.

Yeah.

He just didn't care.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah, you have a lot of different views from really important theologians that I respect on both sides, and some that are kind of like, right in the middle, and some are right in the middle in some weird ways, but.

Yeah, I don't think if anyone tries to make you feel dumb because Christians always believe this way, or they're like, oh, yeah, well, this person believed that.

And there's just as many smart people on the other side who are really good theologians who love the Bible.

You know, that's just something I think it's important for us to keep in mind.

Not just about evolution and creation, but all of this stuff when we're talking about science, faith, and how this stuff divides us or brings us together to just remember there are smart people on all kinds of different sides as we kind of go through these conversations.

Yeah.

That's how we end up with so many different sides.

One up and stick to that.

Yeah.

If I was smart, I'd make up some crazy stuff.

Yeah.

So.

So where do we hope that this series goes and what do we hope we learn?

Yeah, I know we spent a lot of time talking about evolution just then, but I kind of hope we don't do that in the series at large.

Me, too.

I hope it's more about, like, how science helps us see God better or how it can help us have better arguments in the church, because, like, we're still going to argue.

We can just argue well and still have unity without uniformity.

Right.

Yeah.

What about you?

What do you think?

I.

Well, I hope we find that just pretty.

Pretty naturally for anyone that doesn't make it an issue.

Yeah, me too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Also, we.

I also hope that it does a really good job of building up Pastor Will Rose and Thomas Johnston's upcoming miniseries in association with the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.

And it's going to be hosted on our network, the Unazile Podcast Network.

The podcast will be your Matter Matters in an effort to help churches to kind of lead congregations through conversations.

Congregations through conversations about faith, science, and all the different, like questions that bring up around, like vaccines, probably creation.

Evolution is probably going to be a part of that.

Abortion might be a part of that.

How we treat our LGBTQ neighbors.

I'm sure a lot of that stuff's going to be involved in their podcast of all your matter matters.

And I'm really excited for that.

So I hope this does a good job of building that up in advertising their show.

This is just a eight week advertisement.

Yeah.

This is just a big, long series.

No.

So that's one thing.

What's funny is I think that's going to be longer than their entire podcast.

We're gonna build it up longer than it.

It's gonna run.

That's what it deserves.

Yeah.

But their episodes will probably be longer.

You know, it works its way out.

One thing, though, we do like to do before wrapping up, we always like to ask TJ to provide a single, tangible action to help better engender church unity.

Tj, what is something our listeners could stop and do right now that's gonna help better engender Christian unity today?

I think you need to go find the closest person that belongs to a different denomination within you and handcuff them to yourself and throw away the key.

Are you about to do that to me right now?

Because, like, we're in the same room.

I am the closest person to you.

Yeah.

We've already been through that, more or less.

Have we?

Yeah, pretty much.

So I do think that would help a lot because you either learn to love each other or one of you loses an arm.

See, what's funny is like, I. I was gonna go with your joking route and go like, you know what?

I think you sleep in a one person tent together.

And then I was like, wait a.

Minute, we have been three times.

Well, yeah, that, that was the joke.

But then I realized I actually think going camping with people who believe differently than you is excellent because you usually aren't on your phones as much.

You just have to talk.

That's really all there is to do.

So you just have a campfire, talk with one another.

Sometimes beliefs get brought up.

Sometimes it's just about your families.

It's cool.

It's whatever.

Yeah.

Maybe have a big camping trip with some people who don't agree with you on everything.

Yeah.

And just get to know each other better.

Yeah.

So what would be the repercussions in the world around us if everyone started doing what you recommended?

Well, they could do both.

They handcuff each other, then go camping again.

No, I don't know.

Honestly, I feel like if we just spent more time outdoors, more time camping with one another, talking to one another, I just feel like there'd be less arguments, less fighting in the world, less tension, polarization.

We probably care a lot less about politics and a lot more about each other.

Yeah, that's what I think.

Yeah.

What do you think?

I thought everybody handcuffed themselves to someone.

Well, I think at least one company that makes handcuffs would make a whole bunch of money, but I. I think it would instill that kind of begrudging respect that is necessary when you're trying to get along with people that don't agree with you on some pretty important stuff.

So, yeah, you know, act wisely when you're choosing the person to hang up yourself too.

But yeah, what an action.

Yeah.

You want what's funny?

It's like tangible, you know, it's funny.

It's like that.

I think that actually would work.

It sounds ridiculous, but it probably would work.

I would work.

It's a little extreme, but hey, it would work.

What, what steps are you willing to go to?

What links to follow Jesus's command that we be united as him and the Father are one.

Yeah.

This is a call to action.

Come on, guys, Find a third person.

Give him the key.

No, no, give him.

Put him in a separate pair of handcuffs.

Oh, it just keeps getting worse.

So before we wrap all the way up, we like to do what's called our God moment segment.

And it's just where we reflect on where we've seen God in our lives recently.

Whether that is in a blessing, a challenge, a moment of worship, whatever it may be.

And I always make Joshua go first to give the rest of us, who is me, time to think.

So, Josh, do you have a God moment for us today?

Yeah, we're about to go see our friend Russell.

If I can make my God moment short enough.

That's true.

And I'm excited for that because I've seen Russell's blessing, haven't seen him in a while, and haven't been with you in a person in a while.

So it's just nice to have people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So for me, I.

My cousin got married recently.

It's been a few days.

I was very ill.

I was very ill, unable to attend on the day of.

But I got lots of pictures.

It was beautiful.

Sounds nice.

Beautiful non Christian, non traditional wedding.

And like, I really, I genuinely hate that I missed it because it looked so cool and I love seeing non traditional things.

We have a friend who was married on a pirate ship.

Yeah, that was cool.

Holy.

That was cool.

But the funniest part of the wedding is that, you know, you get married, you do the unity things that join you together.

All the ones they tried to do that weren't biblical just didn't work as it was outside, which I don't care about.

I just thought it was kind of funny because, like, you know, you know, you're not really married.

Like, that's a sacrament.

You know, and all of the Catholics know.

But it was beautiful.

Yeah, it was beautiful.

And we love the Catholics.

This is just a joke.

You do?

Yeah.

So congratulations to her and her husband.

Yeah.

Together for like 12 years or something.

Now they're married.

Nice.

Yeah.

So if you like listening to this.

Episode, please consider sharing it with your friends, your enemies, your cousin.

Especially your cousin.

Especially your cousin.

Just that one?

Yeah.

Not the rest, only the one time, please.

And once again, we are shifting to fourth wall for your membership, so support us there.

It's a way better storefront.

It's nice, easy, convenient.

Looks good, feels good, wears good.

Check it out.

Try the merch.

Yeah.

Give us a little something while you're there.

There's also a link.

You can see the rest of the Onzel podcast network with which you should do so you can see, you know, other thoughtful Christian podcasts like Let Nothing Move youe with Christian Ashley or My Seminary Life with Brandon Knight, or Systematic Ecology with pretty much everyone.

Pretty much everybody, yeah.

You met someone in your life.

They've probably been.

I'm just kidding.

But there's a lot.

There's a lot.

But we hope you enjoyed it.

Coming up in this series, we'll be speaking with.

Dr. John Paul is a gastrologist and process theologian.

When he's speaking with Rachel Jordan, a marine biologist and professional diver.

Dr. Shailene Kendrick, an expert in neuro, relational and spiritual integration, and a few others that will mention by name as we get closer.

And then at the end of the series, we're gonna have on Pastor Will Rose and Thomas Johnston of your Matter Matters fame to discuss their upcoming educational miniseries in partnership with Pastor on his podcast and the El.

So finally, at the end of season one, Francis Chan will be on the show.

Probably.

If someone tells him.

Probably.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So tune in for that.

Definitely.

Yeah.