PART TWO

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to season 5, episode 42 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Kerry: So the neuroception, this internal surveillance system, and we're looking at the cues of safety and danger. And I think , what's interesting is that actually, you know, we might think of the cues of danger as kind of the big ticket things, like, natural disaster or, you know, big things, but actually a cue of danger for your nervous system can just be too much.

[00:00:29] Or too soon, or not enough. So if we translate that into our everyday working, that can be just too many back to back meetings, too much time on your screen, too much intense thinking, not enough time walking or being outside. it's like a loss of rhythm. if we think back to in the pandemic when a lot of us ended up having more of these back to back meetings.

[00:00:56] and people really noticed it in their system, the effect of that. So from a nervous system point of view and from polyvagal point of view, we can see that it's just been too much for your nervous system.

[00:01:09] Ross: Peasoopers, here's the second part of my chat with Kerry Cullen. Kerry is an embodiment coach, facilitator, chartered psychologist, and expert in polyvagal theory.

[00:01:21] In this episode, Kerry unpacks polyvagal theory for us in a really accessible way. She starts with a description and then goes on to talk about its three organising principles and the work of Stephen Porges and Deb Dana.

[00:01:35] Kerry illustrates the organizing principles by looking at her life changing diagnosis through the lens of polyvagal theory. And we also begin to consider its usefulness in the workplace.

[00:01:45] and p supers, there is so much that resonates with ACT, too. [00:02:00] Now, for those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, hello! Welcome! Great to have you on board. we are an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun. Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science.

[00:02:22] Now let's just scoot over to the news desk. If you'd like to find out more about the Act in the Workplace Train the Trainer program that I developed with Dr.

[00:02:30] Paul Flaman in partnership with Contextual Consulting, you'll find the link in the show notes. It's coming up soon, in April and May this year. I've trained hundreds of adults using this training protocol, and also hundreds of trainers too. Thanks to Joe Oliver at Contextual Consulting, There's a code for the course which gives you a 20 percent discount, and that code is PSOOP20. You'll find all the links in the show notes.

[00:02:55] And reviews are in for part one of my chat with Kerry. Favian Little on LinkedIn said, I really enjoyed this episode, Ross. thanks to Kerry for sharing her experience so openly. her perspective on what feeling lost can mean and lead to resonated so much, and the way she used her curiosity in a constructive and compassionate way to herself and others when faced with her diagnosis was tremendously inspiring. Well, thanks to Fabian and everyone who listened, rated, and reviewed.

[00:03:26] You're all helping us reach more people with stuff that could be useful. And each review will receive one of the new PeopleSoup bookmarks, which should have gone to print by the time this episode airs.

[00:03:37] So try not to get too excited. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to part 2 of my chat with Kerry Cullen. That's it,

[00:03:50] So Kerry, I really want to introduce Polyvagal theory to the pea supers

[00:03:55] Kerry: So perhaps I'll just say a little bit about polyvagal theory in terms of where it's [00:04:00] come from. so polyvagal theory is the theory of Stephen Porges.

[00:04:06] What is PVT?

[00:04:06] Kerry: It's really the science of safety and connection, is really what the theory is about. So it's understanding how our autonomic nervous system is shaping how we turn up in the world. And I think a lovely description of it is really looking at how our biology is shaping the stories we tell ourselves. And then how the stories we tell ourselves in turn shape our biology.

[00:04:37] Will I say that again?

[00:04:39] Ross: No, sorry, I was just

[00:04:41] thinking in my head

[00:04:41] about a loop. Yeah. A loop. Absolutely. And there's the bridge right between the body and the mind. So, and it's, it's really informing that dynamic nature of the relationship between the body and mind and how that shapes how we show up in every minute of every day.

[00:05:01] Wow,

[00:05:02] Kerry: Yeah. So when I, when I talked before about looking at thinking that that was an either or this theory really is the both and it's really looking at the relationship between them and very much centered around from a biological perspective around the vagus nerves.

[00:05:19] The VAGUS NERVE

[00:05:19] Kerry: And the vagus nerve, it just runs from our brainstem, the 10th cranial nerve, right across, it comes across our hearing, our eyes, our facial muscles, down our neck, over the heart, and then right down into our gut. It's often called the wandering nerve. So it's, interesting just to, just to remember the territory that it covers because that does shape.

[00:05:46] How it impacts how we show up,

[00:05:48] Ross: and it's called the wandering nerve because it covers lots of

[00:05:53] Kerry: because it's so long and it, yeah, it's touching into different areas.

[00:05:57] Ross: I think, I got a bit confused about that. Like, is it, is [00:06:00] it moving around?

[00:06:01] Kerry: I think it's wandering in the sense that it's covering it, it's into different areas so it's quite a long nerve

[00:06:07] going right from the brain into the gut.

[00:06:10] Ross: and when you talk about gut, it just makes me think about gut instinct and

[00:06:14] the ancient wisdom of Talking about gut instinct.

[00:06:18] Kerry: And actually it's just interesting you mentioning ancient wisdom there because I think that's important to touch on. To me, polyvagal theory, It is actually ancient wisdom that we know inherently within our bones, you know, it's that we know this and polyvagal theory is just making more explicit what we implicitly already know.

[00:06:45] So I really like that about the theory that it's just reminding us of our own inner wisdom that's there already. Yeah,

[00:06:53] Ross: Boom. I love that we're connecting people with their inner wisdom. And for me, the things that resonate in a way that, well this makes sense, I already know this at some level, are the most powerful things. Because I think that's what attracted me about ACT. It just feels so human and, and, relatable and

[00:07:14] But presented in such an accessible way, which I think is exactly what you do with Polyvagal. So maybe, is it, time to go to those three organizing principles?

[00:07:24] Kerry: yeah. So the three organizing principles, the first one is neuroception. And neuroception, Stephen Porges calls it, like our inner surveillance system. So our body is constantly in conversation with the environment around us. So we've, we've constantly got this internal surveillance system running, if you like, and this is going on beneath our level of conscious awareness.

[00:07:54] And that's a really key part of this. It's not that we're aware of this [00:08:00] or we're tuned into this. This is just happening anyway. And it's reading our environment for cues of safety and danger in three ways. It's looking inside the body. So reading for pain and what's going on inside our body. Then in the actual physical environment.

[00:08:19] And then the third is actually in relationship with other people. So what's happening in the space between us. And I really love what Stephen PORGES says about this, because he says, The nervous system doesn't do appropriate, it just does what it does to keep you safe.

[00:08:37] Ross: it's kind of such a comfort, that.

[00:08:39] Kerry: yeah, it is, it is, isn't it? It's so reassuring.

[00:08:43] You know, it's just trying to keep you safe.

[00:08:45] Ross: And, and in ACT we talk about a similar thing. We talk about. Our minds producing some unhelpful stuff that can then influence how we show up and that unhelpful stuff is generated because of the way our minds have evolved to keep us Safe, But the contexts in which we're operating are very different from when we lived in caves. Sorry I digress, but

[00:09:08] it helps me understand sometimes why perhaps I've shown up as a bit of an arsehole or an eejit. And it helps me think. Oh, God, Ross. And it kind of, it kind of turns that, Oh, God, Ross, into a bit more of a compassionate voice towards myself.

[00:09:25] Kerry: Yeah. And for all of us, right, there are always situations where we show up and we feel like we've been a bit of an arsehole

[00:09:33] Ross: Oh, thank God it's not just me. yeah,

[00:09:35] Kerry: it's, we can have that compassion. You know, and I can remember going to do a presentation, this is a good few years ago now, to a group of MBA students, and I stood up to do my presentation, I'm really well prepared, I'm quite, you know, quite comfortable, but my voice just goes and I go into complete shutdown in my system.

[00:09:57] And it was such an interesting experience because, [00:10:00] you know, in my mind, I feel very safe and there's no, you know, there's no issue. But if we go back to neuroception, whatever my body was picking up on, I actually felt quite unsafe. And for many years after that, I remember, you know, doing lots of different things, firewalking and NLP and lots of things to try and understand.

[00:10:19] But actually looking at it from a nervous system perspective actually makes the most sense with the most compassion to understand what happened.

[00:10:28] Ross: I love the internal surveillance system.

[00:10:31] Kerry: Yeah,

[00:10:32] Ross: And it feels like it's on a hair trigger sometimes and not

[00:10:35] making much sense.

[00:10:36] Kerry: it. We say that there can be a mismatch between that actually we are safe, but at some level of our being, it feels unsafe. And interestingly, this can also be intergenerational, that we can be picking up on a cue of danger that we are just carrying through generation. So, for example, in that example that I just.

[00:10:59] It's shared about, you know, losing my voice in public. I can trace back, you know, through my family, this fear of being seen.

[00:11:08] Ross: Wow, I love that, that we can inherit some of these influences or

[00:11:14] ways of looking at the world from our ancestors.

[00:11:17] Kerry: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:19] Ross: Absolutely agree,

[00:11:20] Kerry: Which were appropriate at one time and served a purpose, right? You know, and it's respecting that as well. I think that's part in the reshaping. It's, it's actually respecting that response, that it is trying to keep you safe. As Stephen Porteous says, it's not always appropriate. But at one time it probably was, you know, so it's, it's respecting that and then re storying around it.

[00:11:43] Ross: I so resonate with this because I've got a very strong, unhelpful thought that's there a lot of the time. And it basically articulated as, what will the neighbors say? What will people think about me?

[00:11:57] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:11:58] Ross: And I know that's [00:12:00] inherited.

[00:12:00] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:12:01] Ross: And I'm not

[00:12:01] criticizing my dear mum, I particularly identify

[00:12:04] that with my mum,

[00:12:06] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:12:06] Ross: but it's fascinating to think that at one point in my ancestry, perhaps, that

[00:12:11] was useful.

[00:12:13] Kerry: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And necessary to, to, to survive or be safe, you know. Yeah.

[00:12:20] Ross: please, please go on Kerry, I'm loving this. Thanks. Yeah.

[00:12:24] Kerry: So yeah, so the neuroception, this internal surveillance system, and we're looking at the cues of safety and danger. And I think what might be, what's interesting and to point out to your PSUPUs is that actually, you know, we might think of the cues of danger as kind of the big ticket things, you know, like, you know, natural disaster or, you know, big things, but actually a cue of danger for your nervous system can just be too much.

[00:12:52] Or too soon, or not enough. So if we translate that into our everyday working, you know, that can be just too many back to back meetings, too much time on your screen, you know, too much intense thinking, not enough time walking or being outside. If you get what I'm saying, it's like a loss of rhythm. It's like if we think back to in the pandemic when a lot of us ended up having more of these back to back meetings.

[00:13:23] and people really noticed it in their system, the effect of that. So from a nervous system point of view and from polyvagal point of view, we can see that it's just been too much for your nervous system.

[00:13:36] Ross: Hmm, and we lose sight of any sign of agency or choice in those

[00:13:41] Kerry: Yeah. Yeah. And that actually leads into the second principle. We think about that, you know, that. that losing that sense of choice or agency. We can think about what happens in our nervous system in terms of a ladder. So this is the beautiful work of Deb Dana. So Deb [00:14:00] Dana took Stephen Portis's work and then she made it very accessible in terms of, well, how do we actually work with this in a very practical way?

[00:14:09] So it'd be great to share some of Deb's models that might be helpful and useful.

[00:14:13] Ross: you know I'm a big fan of the ladder.

[00:14:16] Kerry: yeah, the ladder, it's, it's just such a helpful, a helpful way of thinking about this. So, so Deb uses the analogy, if we think about a ladder up against the wall, and if we imagine that there are three areas in the ladder, a top, a middle and then the bottom of the ladder.

[00:14:35] To here

[00:14:35] Kerry: So if we've got a preponderance of safety, so I'm feeling that now talking to you Ross, and we've got a sense of connection, is actually the vital word, we've got a sense of safety and connection, then we're at the top of the ladder. And at the top of the ladder is where, in our body, we have a sense of ease, and it's almost like there's an uprightness to us, there's an integrity to how we are in our system, if that makes sense.

[00:15:05] And we have this sense of flow and ease. So there's not too much tension, or, you know, thinking of Goldilocks, it's like the perfect bowl of porridge, there's not too much tension. We're not in collapse either. So we have this sense of flow, and that's where we can access the curiosity. That's where we can access collaboration.

[00:15:24] And it's where our emotional intelligence comes in, and it's where empathy comes in as well. So when I talked about, when I talked to my neurosurgeon, and we found that sense of collaboration, That's what we call, a ventral vagal is what we call that top of the ladder. That was a conversation in that space that we can see different possibilities.

[00:15:46] And what's really interesting is the story that we tell ourselves is different depending where we are on the ladder. So the story from that top of the ladder is one of possibility [00:16:00] and one of curiosity.

[00:16:01] Ross: so it's a lovely place for us to be in that top of the ladder ventral vagal.

[00:16:06] Kerry: yeah, And we're human, Ross.

[00:16:09] Ross: Hell

[00:16:09] yeah!

[00:16:11] Kerry: we can't, we can't hang out there all the time. We'd probably be insufferable anyway, right?

[00:16:15] Ross: Yeah, but I guess in act terms that's like towards moves, that's us being

[00:16:21] Kind of the best version of ourselves in that moment and we kind of know bodily and just a

[00:16:28] general, there's a sense of a gut instinct when that is happening, when we're doing our towards moves. So ventral vagal,

[00:16:36] top of the

[00:16:37] ladder.

[00:16:38] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:16:39] Ross: and this is the conversation you had with your consultant, you helped him. Get into that ventral vagal space with you. Is that right?

[00:16:47] Kerry: yeah. absolutely. And the language doesn't always resonate, you know, ventral vagal. I guess it's also finding the language that, you know, we might call it flow. So it's, it's whatever language that resonates with you.

[00:16:59] So that's the top of the ladder. And remembering, so our story follows state. So we're finding that sense of curiosity. If then there is more preponderance of cues of danger that come in, so going back to neuroception, so we're starting to pick up these cues of danger happening below our level of conscious awareness, we will find ourselves slipping down that ladder, and now we'll start to move into more of a defensive state.

[00:17:29] So going back to thinking about it in terms of survival, we'll start to move into more of a survival state. And that middle of the ladder, and it is hierarchical, so the first place we go is down from the top to the middle.

[00:17:45] Ross: Hmm.

[00:17:45] Kerry: middle of the ladder, it's when we have too much energy. So again, remembering that this is, this wisdom is already within us.

[00:17:54] We're probably going to recognize this within ourselves, all of us . It's that sense [00:18:00] of, you know, your heart's going a bit faster, there's more tension in your body. So physically to me, it's like we're a bit ahead of ourselves. You know, the energy's a bit forward, we're talking a bit faster. whereas when we're at the top of the ladder, we feel on top of things.

[00:18:15] We're more organized in the middle of the ladder. We're starting to feel a bit more disorganized. Now we're not quite on top of things, so. And we're trying to catch up with ourselves if you like. And we can find here we're more defensive. or more argumentative. And we can also find the criticism of either other people or ourselves, so we can have that kind of the loop of the, the negative thinking about ourselves that kind of starts to loop in this place.

[00:18:44] And we can get a seeking behavior. So it's like we're trying to seek and look for things. So I know for me, when I'm in this middle of the ladder, that I will find myself like looking for something online that I don't really need. Or I'll find myself looking at houses or, you know, it's like looking for something.

[00:19:01] So I had a little bit of this going on yesterday when there was, there was a, it was a lovely day and a lot going on. And there was a bit of sympathetic. There was a lot of moving parts. And also, a little bit of sympathetic about coming on the podcast about being seen. That was in the system as well.

[00:19:18] Ross: Hmm.

[00:19:19] Kerry: So I could feel a bit of that running and notice this behavior coming in of the seeking.

[00:19:26] Ross: So that could be a whole variety of things. For you it might be looking at stuff online that you perhaps don't need, but making purchases. It could, could it, could it be like endless scrolling on social media?

[00:19:40] Kerry: Endless scrolling, or when you're on Netflix and you cannot decide what you want to watch. You know, you're like, you keep looking through the menu. Nothing is resonating.

[00:19:49] Ross: Have you been in our house? Man alive, yeah. That is sometimes, there's too much choice. And like,

[00:19:58] that. looks good. Oh, that looks good.

[00:19:59] [00:20:00] And then they have to revert to lists from other people.

[00:20:02] Kerry: And if we go back to the story, follow state. when we're in this place, we've also now separated as a key thing. So it's at the top of the ladder that we've got a sense of connection. When we're in the middle of the ladder or the bottom of the ladder. We now don't feel connected, so we feel more alone, and the story can be one of, you know, can be rebellious of like, well, sod you, you know, so that, that was me with the medical profession with my diagnosis, if I was in sympathetic, it would be, well, sod the medical profession, what do they know, you know, I'm going to go off and do my own thing, that's a load of nonsense, you know, that, that kind of thing, so it, our story changes depending on where we are on the ladder.

[00:20:43] Ross: Got you. So it's that defensiveness.

[00:20:46] It's perhaps feeling isolated and alone as well.

[00:20:51] Kerry: Yeah, it's more of one of us against the world.

[00:20:56] Ross: Hmm. And folks. You'd already be thinking about this from an organizational perspective, whether it's one to one relationships at work, whether it's coaching, whether it's teams, but, but hold all those thoughts because we've got more to explore.

[00:21:12] Kerry: And what's really interesting, Ross, about this place, we go back to the vagus nerve and how it goes over our hearing and our eyes,

[00:21:20] If we just think about that physiologically, it actually changes how we hear things. So if we're in this sympathetic, this mobilized middle of the ladder place, and we hear something that is neutral, we are more likely to hear that as danger.

[00:21:35] and if we go back into our survival states, you know, it was safer to misinterpret something as danger that's neutral than the other way around. So in practical terms, it's like when you get an email, if you've ever had this, you've got an email, if you read it in sympathetic and you might go, talking for myself now, what an asshole, you know.

[00:21:54] But then you go back and you might come back up the ladder and you look again and you read it very differently. [00:22:00] You see it very differently.

[00:22:01] Ross: God yeah. and the danger is if, I guess, if we carry that forward, if I get one of those emails and I just Type my response

[00:22:10] like the keyboard warrior that I am. I've learned through experience never to send that. But if we send that we're just lobbing a grenade over the barricade of our protection kind of thing, aren't we?

[00:22:24] Kerry: Yeah. And we're getting stuck in a dynamic

[00:22:26] Ross: Oh God, and in

[00:22:27] a workplace we can see that dynamic just becoming deeply deeply embedded. We're building our trenches, we're making them deeper and becoming more resolved that We're right Yeah This is why I think polyvagal is one of the key foundations to Evolving in the workplace of being more effective and kind and curious and compassionate humans.

[00:22:52] Kerry: Yeah. And, you know, we're always going to be somewhere on the ladder. Deb Dana says that and I think it's a lovely way in our humanness. We're always going to be somewhere. But a resilient system is a system that learns how to move. So, in other words, if we find ourselves in that middle of the ladder or the bottom that we're going to talk about, that we then have strategies that help us move out of it quicker, so we don't get stuck there for long periods of time.

[00:23:20] Ross: Love that so it's about noticing and then

[00:23:23] doing something about it. Yeah, yeah, So will we go to the bottom of

[00:23:27] Kerry: the ladder?

[00:23:28] Ross: Yes, please.

[00:23:29] Kerry: So remembering it's a hierarchy, so the first place we go is the middle, that's too much energy. Then the bottom of the ladder is actually the big guns of our nervous system. and actually this is where Stephen Porges theory really changed what we understand about Neuroscience.

[00:23:47] because it was thought previously that the sympathetic nervous system raised your energy as it does, and that the parasympathetic calms your energy. So that was the savior of the nervous system. [00:24:00] But actually in Stephen Porges theory, this bottom of the ladder is actually governed by your parasympathetic nervous system.

[00:24:08] it's having that kind of down effect on your system, but in a survival way. So if it's in a positive way, then that's about the rest and restore. So that means that we have ventral, vagal, and this sense of this dorsal is, is what we call this bottom of the ladder. But if it's in a survival sense, it's actually making us play dead, essentially.

[00:24:35] So it's this oldest form of survival, if we go right back, that we have within ourselves. So if you think about when a mouse is caught in a cat's mouth, it will play dead. So essentially, this is what we're doing when we find ourselves at the bottom of the ladder but in a more evolved way. you know, one way might be to faint.

[00:24:59] That has consequences, you know. So instead, we dissociate. So we're there. But it's like our nervous system takes us away from the table. So it's more of a collapse in our system. And so it's taken us away from being present.

[00:25:17] Ross: Got you.

[00:25:18] Kerry: And, The other thing to say about these places on the ladder, they're not buckets. we can tip in a little bit into that having too much energy, you know, or we can tip in a little bit the dorsal. or we can find ourselves, you know, it's like a continuum that we can, it can lead into, you know, real feelings of hopelessness.

[00:25:37] So, you know, so it's not that they're buckets. And the ladder, that's where we have that loss of agency. So it's like we're behind ourselves. When I go back to my diagnosis, I would have found myself at this bottom of the ladder. It's like feeling overwhelmed. And the story from this place is more hopeless.

[00:25:57] It's like, I don't know what I can do about [00:26:00] this. I've got, you know, I can feel even as I say that in my system, you know, it's that sense of overwhelm.

[00:26:05] Ross: So this this overwhelm at the bottom of the ladder. It's just so identifiable what I love is it helps explain how we're showing up at work, but also gives us

[00:26:15] resources to to change that

[00:26:17] state

[00:26:18] of how we're showing up.

[00:26:19] Kerry: Yeah. And actually it can be interesting as well if, because what Deb will say is, Deb says that one of those, either the middle or the bottom of the ladder will be what she calls your home away from home. So in other words. Some people will find themselves hanging out more in that middle of the ladder, if they're under pressure or those cues of danger.

[00:26:40] But for other people, the bottom of the ladder is actually more of a home away from home. It is for me. The bottom of the ladder is more where I'll go to. So it can also help in the world of work about bringing in understanding. Because if your home away from home is that middle of the ladder, Okay, and you're interacting with me and I get very overwhelmed by something and I go to the bottom of the ladder.

[00:27:02] It might look like I don't care because what will happen as you look at me is I'll lose tone. My face will lose tone, my eyes will go down a bit. I won't be connected to you and that can look like I don't care. and in a way I have zoned out because it's it's the survival mechanism coming in, but it's not that I don't care, I've just got very overwhelmed.

[00:27:25] So it can be really helpful to actually understand how we show up and what's behind that.

[00:27:30] Ross: You're already making me think about things I've done this year where I've been training people, groups in a room, and sometimes you look around the room and notice people look quite disengaged. Or people might look quite distracted. They they're doodling,

[00:27:46] I don't know, maybe they're at the bottom of that ladder.

[00:27:48] They're feeling that overwhelm.

[00:27:50] To here

[00:27:50] Ross: And is it possible that they're still engaged?

[00:27:54] Kerry: Now that's a really good question. I think when we're at the bottom of the ladder, we're not as accessible, [00:28:00] so we're not as engaged, right? That's, that's the truth of it, because there is that sense of disconnect.

[00:28:06] So, engagement, when we're available, because that's about being available, is actually more when we can bring that ventral vagal back online.

[00:28:15] Ross: got it. Cause, cause when people are like that, when I'm trying to hold

[00:28:19] a room,

[00:28:20] people feel less accessible. That's the

[00:28:22] word, less accessible. They feel more distant.

[00:28:25] Kerry: They're distant. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:27] Ross: And that can perhaps take me to more to the middle of my ladder sometimes.

[00:28:33] Kerry: Yeah. Also interesting to think about, leadership. understand that dynamic because, you know, you talked about the middle of the ladder. I think that can happen if somebody is more dorsal and somebody's home away from home is more sympathetic.

[00:28:47] What can happen in the person who's more sympathetic, they're trying to reach the person who's more dorsal, so they'll get even louder or They'll, they'll ramp it up and then what will happen when the more dorsal person is they'll actually move back more

[00:28:59] Ross: oh my gosh, that, that is it isn't it?

[00:29:01]

[00:29:01] Poss SPoons

[00:29:01] Ross: So Kerry, can you just recap for me the positions on the ladder? So going from top down. What each of them is called, just to help

[00:29:13] me get that in my head.

[00:29:14] Kerry: yeah, yeah, Great question. So we have the ladder and we think about ladder having three distinct areas, the top, middle and bottom.

[00:29:23] So the top, ventral vagal, or flow, that's where we have that sense of connection and curiosity and where we do our best thinking and creativity. Then we slip down into the middle of the ladder when those cues of danger increase and that's when we've got too much energy.

[00:29:41] some of the language of that would be mobilized or sympathetic. Sympathetic is the language there because it is to do with the sympathetic part of the nervous system. So your energy is increasing. The bottom of the ladder is dorsal. and we can think about that as shut down. So it's when our [00:30:00] nervous system is collapsing more and taking us away from the situation and in both the middle and the bottom of the ladder, we don't have a sense of connection.

[00:30:10] we're more in our defensive states. I think we should also mention at this point as well, for your P Soopers Ross. That we do have blended states, and that's important to mention, that we can have our ventral, top of the ladder, that can be holding our sympathetic, the middle of the ladder.

[00:30:29] So in other words, we've got a lot of energy and it's held in ventral. So actually, that's a really, it's a great place to be for high performance. You know, it's a great place. It's this kind of energy where we're, we are on top of things, you know, there's a bit of pace. And we're actually, if we think about our towards moves, if we're really in our, towards moves in act, then that could have some of that energy, right?

[00:30:53] We're moving forward. We've got momentum.

[00:30:56] Ross: Mmm.

[00:30:56] Kerry: So it's a high performance place, and it's also a play place, it's where we can be playful. The thing is, if we try and hang out there too long, we'll slip into sympathetic.

[00:31:08] So it's a bit like when you see children playing, you know, eventually one will start to cry or there'll be some kind of conflict, you know, it's the same kind of thing.

[00:31:17] We'll slip out of it eventually.

[00:31:19] But if we think about that, it's such a seductive place to be in, right? Who doesn't want to hang out in that place where we've got lots of vengeful and lots of sympathetic?

[00:31:28] Ross: Hell yeah.

[00:31:29] Kerry: Yeah. So that's another thing for us in organisations to be aware of.

[00:31:36] Ross: Quacky, it's like unpacking behavior in the office, step by step.

[00:31:41] Kerry: Yeah. So that's the blended state of, Ventral Vega with Sympathetic. we also have Ventral with Dorsal. So we've got this lovely Ventral energy online, and it's holding the Dorsal, which is more of a rest and digest place. So [00:32:00] actually it's a really important place as well, because it's where we can have recovery.

[00:32:04] It's where our cells can regenerate. And we might think of that, you know, it's when we've got some stillness, meditation would come in there, or breath work, but when we're in that place where we're just feeling restored.

[00:32:18] Ross: I love these blended states. I think it adds a whole new understanding to how they can combine with each other.

[00:32:25] Kerry: yeah, yeah,

[00:32:27] Final Principle - co regulation

[00:32:27] Kerry: So the final principle then is around co regulation. And I love this principle because it's about the space that lies between us. So if we think about when a baby is born, it's essential for them to be with a caregiver. That relationship is essential for them to survive. So we're hardwired for connection.

[00:32:51] And as we become adults, it becomes essential for us to thrive. So we need this sense of relationship with other people. Now, some people are more introvert and are very happy to have time on their own. And there will still be a need for connection at some level, right? You know, whereas as more extroverted people want more connection, but there is this innate drive.

[00:33:15] us to have a sense of connection with other people in some shape or form. And I love, there's a quote by Neil Greenberg, and he says, Resilience doesn't always lie within us, but between us. And I just love the possibility of that, so. Like for me, when I was at the bottom of the ladder with my diagnosis, I really benefited from those people who could be around me, who could get themselves to the top of the ladder and be in ventral vagal to hold me in my dorsal state and help me bring some of that ventral online.

[00:33:52] Ross: you know, when you talk, Carrie, about making explicit what is already within us.

[00:33:58] Kerry: Yeah,

[00:33:59] Ross: it [00:34:00] feels so wise and almost obvious that heck yeah, this space we create between us. I remember in my early days of coaching training, I'm talking about rapport. They really focused in on the rapport that we create between us. And that kind of blew my mind at that point. That between us as human beings, we're co creating a space of. Hopefully safety and openness. And I now regularly talk about that with my coaching clients, that the space we're co creating between us and how we can support each other to access resources that perhaps are not available to us in that moment.

[00:34:41] Kerry: absolutely. And from a biological perspective, in polyvagal terms, it looks at how this co regulation happens.

[00:34:50] to here

[00:34:50] Kerry: It's to do with what's called the social engagement system. it's actually to do with The kind of eye heart connection, actually, it's all this area. It's that upper area of the nervous system of that vagal nerve.

[00:35:03] So it's linked in to a few different mechanisms. Our voice is very important. So the prosody in our voice, like I think you've got a really regulated voice Ross, but when I, when I hear you talk and I, I imagine that's been said to you before. You have that prosody in your voice that's regulating.

[00:35:24] it's soothing to listen to your voice. So that that's one area. And then the pace of our voice as well. how are we pacing our voice? And it's also very individual because how we show up is how our nervous system has been shaped, right? So actually there is also for us, how we experience somebody's voice can be different to how somebody else experiences it.

[00:35:47] So it does depend on how your nervous system has been shaped. is interesting as well.

[00:35:52] Ross: That's amazing because people have been very kind about how they found my voice very relaxing [00:36:00] before.

[00:36:00] And when I was doing lots of workshops in the pandemic, in the midst of the sort of early days, Something told me to slow down and give people space to explore in workshops.

[00:36:11] Kerry: yeah.

[00:36:11] Ross: and that was generally very well received. People were thinking this is like an oasis in my day, this chance to go and explore these new skills and techniques.

[00:36:20] Kerry: Yeah,

[00:36:21] Ross: And that became a sort of way of moving forward to me, recognizing that people were having frantic work lives outside of this,

[00:36:28] and arriving at this workshop to

[00:36:30] Kind of press pause and then there were some people who went,

[00:36:34] why is he going so bloody slow?

[00:36:36] What's wrong with them? We're not idiots.

[00:36:39] Kerry: yeah, yeah,

[00:36:41] Ross: So that helps me position

[00:36:42] that. And actually, if we look at that, we might propose that perhaps for some of those people, the home away from home is more sympathetic, right? And remember that the pace of sympathetic is actually quite fast. So a slower pace can feel unsafe because for some people when sympathetic is their home away from home, they really don't want to dip into dorsal there's a feeling if I stop and go there, I'll never be able to get back up.

[00:37:11] Gosh, it's just brings so much to life.

[00:37:14] Kerry: that is within us already, right? That's the thing, isn't it? You know,

[00:37:18] So, just to say a bit more on the social engagement, it's also to do with our head movement. So, when, when the head has a bit of movement, that has more social engagement than if the posture is very straight. And it's to do with eye gaze as well, you know, like a stare We're not having as much co regulation as when it, if it's a softer eye gaze, you know, so it's interesting in the pandemic when we were wearing masks, we could still get regulation with people because we could see their eyes, you know, we're still seeing the head movement, we can still hear their voice.

[00:37:47] And then it's to do with your middle ear as well. So that social engagement is, a fascinating area.

[00:37:53] Ross: beautiful.

[00:37:54] [00:38:00] Kerry in the bag. Hold on to your hats though, because next week there's a bit more on polyvagal theory with Kerry. We thought you might like a deeper dive and there's a tremendous takeaway too. Now, we need your help. You can support us and help us reach more people with this behavioural science. So

[00:38:20] you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, we'd love you to do three things.

[00:38:24] Ross: Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.

[00:38:32] Number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This would all help us reach more people and make some noise with stuff that could be useful. We'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com. On X, formerly known as Twitter, we are at peoplesouppod. on the gram, known as insta, We are at People. Soup and on Facebook we are at PeopleSoupPod. You can also drop us a review or get in touch using a voice note on WhatsApp.

[00:39:00] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[00:39:12] Kerry: you're, you're so brilliant at it Roz, I'm so glad that you have a podcast because it's, it's a real skill that you have, a real skill.

[00:39:21] Ross: Oh, that's very kind of you and thank you. I do love doing it.