Head coverings have not really been an issue for many, many centuries, but lately it's becoming a bigger and bigger issue.

Some controversy has been coming up on the issue of head coverings.

And as we're going to see, author of the book A Cover for Glory states kind of clearly that it was not an issue until.

Welcome to the RAP Report with your host, Andrew Rapaport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application.

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Well, welcome to another edition of the RAP Report.

I'm your host, Andrew Rappaport, the executive director of Striving for Eternity and the Christian podcast community, of which this podcast is a proud member.

We are here to give you biblical interpretations and applications for the Christian life.

I am joined today by someone that I met when I was doing.

Doing a show with Dead Man Walking, Greg Moore.

We had not met, at least that I know of, before that, but in the discussion, we got into discussing head coverings, which Dale had written a book on.

And I was thoroughly interested because folks who follow this show and my Apologetics live show know that we have had several podcasters in the Christian podcast community who've changed their view on head coverings, including my co host on Apologex Live, Drew.

So he had changed his view.

The guys at I think it was Do Theology, were preaching through First Corinthians and changed their view to a view of wearing head coverings for women.

This is based out of First Corinthians, chapter 11.

And I was very interesting.

Dale has a book out called A Cover for Glory, subtitled A Biblical Defense for Head Coverings.

Dale Partridge, welcome to the RAP Report.

Hey, brother, I'm excited to be here, have this conversation.

Hopefully it's helpful for the church.

And he is hoping to change my mind.

We will see.

But, you know, I'm not opposed to changing, changing my view, if that's what scripture says.

But.

And that should be the case for all of us.

But for Dale, for folks who may not know who you are, can you introduce yourself, let folks know a little bit about yourself and the ministry@relearn.org which folks you all go check out.

Yeah, so I'm a, you know, husband, father.

I have four kids, live in Prescott, Arizona, which is a little bit north of Arizona, about an hour and a half north of Phoenix.

I pastor a church here with a handful of elders and faithful men called Kingsway Reformed Church.

Presbyterian by doctrine.

Westminster Confession of Faith is the, the confession that we hold to, we are applying to be a part of the crec.

So we're in that process of, of that journey.

I, I operate a ministry called relearn.org which is primarily an app that we have.

Essentially it's, you know, if some people might know of canon or Canon plus, very similar in the sense that we, we focus less on video.

Actual fact, we don't really do video.

Ours is, we want to create an incredible library of reformed audiobooks for the entire family.

So we have great books for moms, dads, teens, kids.

And one thing that we do that's kind of unique is that we actually have sound effects and music and all around theology and narrative biographies and stories that are really unique and well done for the entire family.

So we started that a couple years ago and it's been a really great project so far, been fruitful and we just passed over a thousand subscribers which has been a big blessing for us.

And, and so yeah, that's, you know, we have a podcast on real Christianity.

Record my sermons.

All the normal typical pastor stuff, but you know, yeah, my life seems to be filled with just constant teaching.

Well, typical pastor stuff.

Oh, it's okay.

A lot of teaching and a lot of other things that get in the way of teaching.

Yeah, it's amazing.

I, I've often been, you know, overwhelmed with the balance of it all and you know, I, I don't know if you're truly called a pastor until you've tried to quit at least once.

And so you get to a place where you go, I'm, I don't know if I could do this, I'm done.

Or you know, and then, you know, you have a good conversation with your wife, you're one of your co pastors or elders comes and has a good conversation with you, you wake up the next morning, the Holy Spirit fire and you get at it.

And so that's been my journey for the last eight years.

Well, it actually took me three times to quit my first church.

I, I, I, I went to the, the elders and I, I told him I, I'm just, I, I'm resigning.

And I said that verbally.

They rejected verbally.

I, I then put it in writing.

I actually have a letter of them rejecting my resignation in, in writing.

And then the third time I was like, look there, there was just too much going on and they accepted it.

And that same church actually just contacted me today, today to come back and, and come back to the pulpit.

There for, you know, to help them out.

And so it was like, ah, okay, do I do this?

So, yeah, it's, it's.

You always have that.

It's, it is a ministry that is hard for people to understand.

I've.

We have enough pastors and people in full time ministry in the Christian podcast community that I've been talking, I've been talking with several wanting to do a podcast of those in full time ministry.

And I want, I, I already know the first episode.

The first episode.

I want to start by just asking all the pastors.

So you start working on your sermon Saturday night.

Right, okay.

Like just let's deal with all the myths that people believe in the church about pastors.

Yeah, yeah, no, yeah.

If there's a moment that I have a sermon that's not started by Saturday, that is a massive problem.

That means that I had the flu that week.

That means that, you know, some insane thing happened.

But yeah, that is, that is the real deal.

That would be a real problem for me because most of my sermons, I'm usually would be working on about four sermons at once.

They're at different levels.

But if I didn't get started months in advance because some of the stuff just takes a lot more research you got to do.

For example, let's, let's deal with the topic.

Right.

Head coverings.

If you're coming to First Corinthians, chapter 11, there's a lot more you have to read when it comes to the issue of head coverings.

I haven't preached through First Corinthians yet, so I, I've, I've tackled chapters of the book, but I haven't gone verse by verse and I haven't tackled chapter 11 to preach it.

But you know, if I was, I, I would be having to read a whole lot more because that, there's a lot more, I think that's lost in the area of head coverings because of, well, whether the culture we live in or culture over time.

And you actually address that in some of the book.

Right.

So let's get into first, why did you write this book, a cover for Gloria?

Biblical Defense of Head Coverings.

What brought this about for you?

My wife and I, maybe 10 to 12 years ago be.

We joined a church and the pastor there held this position and we were younger in our faith and he didn't give us this, you know, incredible exposition of the passage, but he made a few points that were helpful for us and we, we looked at the text together.

My wife actually had a conviction even before I did.

But we, we saw, you know, primarily that men take their hats off when they pray.

That's been a historic practice forever and is still generally the practice even today.

And it's because of that particular passage of scripture.

And so the reason that you have the farmer that takes his hat off and when he prays or at NASCAR when they pray and there's 10,000 people, men take their hats off.

That's really, you know, the fruit of this particular passage in America.

And so, you know, I started seeing the inconsistencies between, well, why, why are men willing to follow this passage and women not.

Well, that makes total sense with feminism.

Then I started doing some history, looking about some research.

And this is, you know, years ago, finding out that essentially head coverings were vast majority of church history, women were wearing head coverings.

I mean the, the first chapter of my book is the history of head coverings.

And most women that read this book and men say, I'm already convinced by the end of chapter one, just from the historical argument, they continue to push through because they want the biblical evidence.

But it's hard to fight against the historical argument when you have, you know, the Puritans and the Reformers and the pre Reformers and the Catholic Church and, and the medieval church and, and the early church and the church fathers and, and you start to see, see like this.

And it's not just in their writings, it's in their art, it's in their sculptures, it's in their, in their paintings, it's in their illustrations, in their engravings.

It's, it's everywhere.

In fact, it's extremely rare to find something church related from, you know, any previous century that you don't see a woman wearing a head covering.

And so when I started to find out that that head coverings essentially disappeared in tandem with the feminist movement.

That was when it really kind of piqued my interest to go, huh?

Okay, so you start to see, you know, it shifts over to bonnets, bonnets shift over to hats.

Hats shift over to kind of doilies and little small things and fashionable statements.

And when the fashion got out of trend, essentially the hat went away.

You start to see bonnet burnings from feminists.

You start to see hat burnings from the early, in the early 1900s.

You start to see groups of feminist women that specifically targeted head coverings as the means of their oppression.

And you start to realize, okay, this is certainly sociologically compelling.

And, and so I had always held that position.

And then when I, when I decided to write the book, I I did a podcast with my wife maybe, I don't know, six years ago now on this.

And we had, it's still like our number one podcast.

I've done like 260 episodes and, you know, 7 million downloads on our podcast.

And that podcast on Head Coverings is still our most popular episode.

And so I thought, all right, this is certainly an important discussion to be had.

And we've also noticed that there's this, there's this.

Just the real data of more and more people are coming to a position on Head Coverings, as you mentioned, even at the start of the show.

And so I thought, one day I'm going to write a book.

And it just took me a while because of the amount.

One, I didn't want it to be new.

I didn't want to write a book about something that was really new to our home.

And, but we really had been doing this for a decade before I even started writing this.

And then two, it took me like a year to study for this book.

I mean, I read some incredible historical writings.

There is a couple other, even modern theologians in the last, you know, 100 years that have written on the topic that have done some extensive work.

And I read the books that most people wouldn't read, read, you know, four or 500 page, 600 page books on the topic and tried to take all the best content out of it and sum it up into like a less than 200 page book that you can read in like a couple hours.

And so it's, so far it's, I've had several pastors write me, reform pastors that are like, hey, you, you pushed me over the edge.

Thank you.

This was helpful.

I've had, I've had several, I, I've only known a handful, maybe two, three women that have told me they've read it and not really adopted the position.

And so I, you know, Joel Webbin and I talk about this and, and he says, I, you know, this is his words.

But he says, I would rather debate someone on Head Coverings than Calvinism because it's an easier argument to win in the reality.

I think it's true.

I think that it's, I think it's easier to win the argument if we're going to use scripture and we're going to have a, you know, historical, cultural, grammatical, hermeneutic.

You're, it's easier to win the debate around head coverings than it would even be, you know, against a, you know, a provisionist or whatever.

Obviously, I'm a Calvinist.

So I believe that, you know, Calvinism is correct, but, but it's, it's a harder, it's a harder go in terms of the exegetical work than, than head coverings.

And so that's, that's the story.

And I guess we'll, we'll go with that.

Yeah, I mean, it is quite interesting.

You're, as you mentioned the first chapter and as I said in the opening, you make the case that really this was not a debatable issue until feminism.

So you know that that's a strong argument you make in the book.

So flesh that out a bit more for folks.

I mean, because, and again, folks, the book is a cover, a cover for Glory, a biblical defense of head coverings.

And I should mention the best place to get it.

Yes, you can get it on Amazon, but why support a secular company just saying go to relearn.org glory that'll get you to the Relearn Learn store that way.

Well, they get most of the money instead of Amazon because Amazon's going to use that money to, well, attack Christianity anyway.

So, but that is the way they, they do things.

And unfortunately, you know, it's, it's hard to, to, to do things without the world system that until we get a fully parallel economy, that's, we're working toward it.

But the best place to go is relearn.org glory so with that, let's talk about this.

Why do you think the, the issue of feminism came in?

And the reason I think this is such an important thing is many and I know we'll get into this more detail probably later when we look into the biblical arguments, but many believe what happened in Corinth was that women were shaving their heads, saying, look, I could be like a man.

It was like the early women's rights movement was to shave your head in Corinth.

And that this is the issue Paul's addressing is to say, well, women shouldn't shave their heads.

They should have their heads covered with their hair.

And, and that that's what the head covering is, which would be quite interesting because if that is what he's arguing, and yet we see historically that women would cover their heads.

It would actually be the feminist movement that caused Paul to write it in the Corinth to now do away with the head coverings, which, which creates, it.

Creates a contradictory narrative in my opinion there.

So I think I will address the issue is the hair, the covering.

And I think that honestly is the easiest argument to debunk.

And so we will hit that one hard in a second.

But I think that when we talk about the history, a few things that come to mind is one, we're seeing the loss of male authority.

Now.

Men don't need to be, men don't need to feel like being a man is oppressive because God has given us this station.

We have authority in the home and the church and we're supposed to be like the ultimate patriarch, Christ, who is a loving and gracious authority, but we are the, the image and glory of God.

It doesn't say that women are the image and glory of God.

It says that women are made in the image of God.

But men have a unique station in chapter 11 that we are, are the glory of God in a way, that the women are the glory of man.

And so women, this whole issue around head covering is about the issue of authority.

It's about physical symbols that demonstrate the spiritual order to other Christians and to the spiritual world.

And so when you remove the physical elements that distinguish authority, it shouldn't shock us that we are now confused about who can be in authority.

And so what I mean by that is that when we have a church that's trying to ordain women, you know, when you eliminate the visual symbols of authority, the qualifications of authority are forgotten.

And so it's part of the kind of, I'm just like you, I'm the same as you.

Now God gave us this beautiful, you know, study on clothing that clothing communicates.

We know that it's very important throughout history there's a, there's a whole theological argument around textiles and, and, and uniform, et cetera, et cetera.

But, but if we take away the actual physical elements that communicate authority, we shouldn't be confused why the church is so confused about who is in authority.

And so I think that was a real big.

When you walk into a church full of women covering their heads, you're not going to often find women trying to be ordained.

It is, it is, it is a sign that women are really in submission to their husbands.

And that is a great and helpful trait to the ecclesiastical life of the church.

Well, one of the criticisms that folks will make is that when they see women wearing head coverings, and I think what a lot of people are referring to is more they'll see it in the Mennonite, they see it in the Amish, where it's almost like women are second class citizens almost.

I think for some, when they think head covering, they're thinking Islam.

And first off, just the, the, for folks that may not even realize the, the burkas that are worn within Islam, the women wear that.

But it was actually only for Muhammad's wives initially.

So that wasn't a practice that you could argue that, because some Muslims will say, well, this is historically the way it's always been.

No, it isn't.

The burkas started with.

With his.

Actually his youngest wife, Aisha.

But the, the thing is that that was, you know, the full covering.

We're only see the eyes was to protect his.

His wives from walking around town to identify them.

Now, all the women, you know, are supposed.

In Islam are supposed to do it.

But we're not talking about that when we talk head coverings, right?

No, no.

And honestly, I mean, the scripture commands women to do it while they are praying or prophesying.

Now, we need to qualify those terms.

What is prophesying?

You're like, oh, well, you know, women can't prophesy.

Women can't be pastors.

So therefore, you know that, that, you know, this is just talking about something else.

No, the reality is, is that women do prophesy.

And what is prophesy?

Prophesy means that it's a proclamation of the truth of God to, to the world.

Now, when you're singing Rock of Ages, are you prophesying?

Absolutely.

When you do the Lord's table, it says that you.

You proclaim his death until his return.

You are in a sense proclaiming, you are prophesying.

When you are doing recitations in your liturgy and you're reading scripture aloud, are you prophesying?

Certainly you are.

And so when you're partaking in spiritual activities, including prayer, you are to cover your head.

Now, there's so many angles and pieces of this conversation to have discussed before you can really grasp what's going on.

You know, one is essentially at the core.

Why did I call the book a cover for glory?

Well, because man is the image and glory of God.

Women is the glory of man.

And the idea is that because God our man is the image of in glory of God, he is to not cover when he is spiritually exercising his spiritual realities.

And so he is not to be covered.

He is God's glory.

He is to be.

Be shown.

Now, woman is the glory of man, and she is to cover that glory in the presence of God, because she is, now I'm saying glory of mankind.

She is the glory.

She is the most beautiful part of mankind, but she is the representation of man coming out of Adam.

Adam is the representation of God coming directly from God.

And so there's Some great deep theological realities of Genesis in intertwined here and Eve and Adam and so many things that we, we could spend more time on.

And honestly, if you've ever written a book, you know that when you write a book, you quickly forget everything that you've done after about a year if you're not constantly debating it.

So I'm not going to be able to, you know, extensively remember every element, but I remember even studying for this book going, my goodness, this is phenomenal.

Interesting, fascinating.

You know, theological systematics that are very helpful that put together.

But I think the best part for us, Andrew, is to really sit and talk about the hair as the covering, because I think that's the number one argument in the church.

And, you know, I think I can deal with that pretty easily.

Yeah.

And that's, I mean, right from the text, you know, the, the argument gets made because it says verse six, right?

For if a woman does not, does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off.

But it, it is, but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head.

And so the fact is hair is directly mentioned.

So this, you know, but I'm going to preface it this way and just say there's a lot here that 2,000 years removed from Corinth.

We don't.

It's hard for us to know exactly what Paul is referring to unless he says so.

Because there's a lot in this as you bring out in your book.

There's a lot that brings us back to Genesis because later it's going to talk about, you know, from the next, not the next verse, it's verse 10.

It says, therefore the woman ought to have her.

Her to.

To have a symbol of authority on her head because of angels.

Verse nine is for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but the woman for the man's sake.

So you have a lot going on in his own argumentation of why this is the case that is not fleshed out.

And, you know, this is probably the only text that's really clear on this topic of head covering.

But just because it appears only once does not mean that doesn't make it a doctrine.

Well, yeah, and there's, there's more texts on head coverings than several.

There's more text on head coverings than women teaching in the church.

I mean, there's more, there's more content on head coverings than on, you know, New Testament on parenting.

There, there's, there's a head.

This is a robust passage of Scripture.

And you're like, okay, this is, this isn't.

This is 16 verses that you half a chapter on a particular issue.

And so I think it is worthy of looking at seriously.

Now, a couple things I want to talk about is one is, you know, you know, you mentioned earlier the women covering their shaving their heads.

That argument I always, it reminds me of like nt rights argument that, you know, oh, in First Corinthians chapter 14, when it says the women shouldn't be teaching.

Oh, it's just talking about those loudmouth, brazen women that are in Corinth, you know, the ones that in the her are in the historical records.

And you're like, what dude?

You can't you one, you can't impart import a non biblical concept into the Bible and then apply this, reduce and reject the, you know, move the biblical concept away because of a non biblical example.

And, and so, you know, it also says in, in 1st Corinthians 14 that this is the practice in all of the churches.

It says that again in First Corinthians 11 that this is the practice and all.

We have no other custom amongst the churches.

We know that the introduction to first Corinthians is not written just to Corinth, but it's written to all who are in every place call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so this is a letter that has again, sure, a specific but also a general Christian message.

And so that is something we need to think of just contextually.

Who is this written to?

And can we just trust that this was written to Christians not just in Corinth, but everywhere?

And I believe we can.

I think we apply that.

Are you going to say, you know, oh, 1 Corinthians 13, now that's just for Corinth.

So what's really easy to just kind of take and create a, a local application for the passages that we don't like.

But we're not going to take the local stuff and explain it away on the passages that everybody likes first.

Like 1 Corinthians 13.

Now when it comes to this topic around the phrase for her hair is given to her for a covering.

Again, many people say, look, it's right there, Dale.

The hair is the covering.

It says it right.

Case closed.

You know, head coverings, they're not needed.

Let's, let's just move on.

But I really believe that out of all the arguments, this actually is probably the weakest argument.

Um, and, and just follow along with me for A second.

Because in chapter 11, verse 6, Paul says, for if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off.

But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off, her head, or, or her head shaved, let her cover her head.

Okay?

And just, you just need to.

I'm going to read it again because I want you to just follow along with this and I'll do a little exegesis here with you in a second.

So for, for, if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off.

Okay, you're about to see the contradiction there.

But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head.

End quote.

So in other words, if the hair is viewed as a head covering, why would Paul say, for if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off.

I want you to just slow down with me for a moment to look at this with me.

If her hair is the covering, then you have to read the text like this.

For if a woman does not cover her head with hair, let her also have her hair cut off.

In this interpretation of the text, it creates like a logical contradiction within the passage and it reveals that the covering that Paul is referring to is not a woman's hair.

He's talking about an actual.

He said, if you don't have that covering on, then cut off your hair, because that's disgraceful.

Furthermore, the, the fact that Paul only commands covering for women during certain functions like praying or prophesying is also evidence that it's instructing the use of a removable covering.

Because if, if the hair were the covering that he has in view, then they would always be covered during all functions because women don't take their hair off.

And more importantly, if the hair is the covering that Paul is calling for, why would Paul even have to write to tell women to cover their heads?

Again, some people take the historical, oh, there's so many bald women everywhere running around.

Really in the church there was all these bald women running around.

Again, we don't have a, we don't hardly have any.

In fact, in fact, I couldn't even find any.

I saw lots of like stuff that came out in like the 1600s, but nothing that was early church claiming that women were, that were shaving their heads.

This is, this is an extremely, a hard to trace citation that is so incredibly popular in our feministic culture.

And so under the view that the hair is the covering.

Again, it would be like Paul writing women to tell women to like, wear their hands because when they pray, when they pray and prophesy, of course they're going to wear their hands because their hands, like their hair, are connected to their body.

The other thing is that when, when, if the hair is the covering, then, then why isn't the hair covering for men?

And so you're supposed to take something off your head.

Are men supposed to shave their heads when they, when they uncover.

Well, of course not.

No, no.

It's because they're talking about a physical covering.

And, and you look at the Greek words that he uses in this passage, and you start to realize that those are the same Greek words that people use for veil or for a shawl.

And, and so there's a lot of evidence there that really can help you grasp that this is not talking about a hair is the covering.

It's talking about your hair is the physical covering for the physical world.

Your, your covering is for the spiritual covering for the spiritual world.

So there's two coverings and one each.

Each of them have their, their purpose.

There's a sense of modesty that is real, that you can, that hair covers a woman, and that's correlating with specific, you know, physical realities of modesty.

And then there's a spiritual reality where glory that we cannot necessarily see, but angels can, is the spiritual covering that you would put on there.

And so again, that's just a basic, easy.

I mean, I spend like 100 pages on that in a book, but there it is.

Well, it's.

Because this is the issue we have to deal with is what is the covering.

I've been asked for many years to deal with the topic of head coverings.

And I started studying this text.

There were struggles that I had with it because when you get into what is the covering, that's real issue.

Everyone agrees women should have their head covered.

Now the question is with what?

And where I struggle with the text is if I take it as hair, which was my presupposition, walking into it is, well, this is talking about hair because it mentions hair.

Where I struggled with it is how does this relate to the creation order, verse 9, and the authority.

Authority because of angels in verse 10.

Like what?

However you interpret the covering, it has to fit with the rest of this context and the broader context.

And, and I, I want to hold off to later on this, but I, I'd rather let's, let's get into the creation order and angels, the, the symbolism there, but it gets into the fact of verse three, right.

This is where this is starting, this.

And I think if you look at the, the way you lay out in the book, the, the issue of feminism, why would feminism have an issue with head coverings?

Well, I think from verse three, feminism has a problem with verse three.

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

It's that middle part there that feminism has the issue with.

Right.

That man is the head of woman.

They.

They don't understand that.

They misinterpret that, what that, what that means, and then they rebel against that.

So let's put hold that off because I think that's the overarching thing you have to answer when we look at what the coverings are.

But whatever the covering is, I think you have to.

It has to tie in with Paul's argument because his argument is not.

His argument is not based on the Corinthian Church.

Just like much as, as you mentioned, we'd make the argument.

Paul's argument in First Timothy for women teaching and having authority is not based in what was happening with loud women in that in the Roman Empire at that time, because he bases it in the creation order and the sin order.

Well, Paul makes a similar thing here.

Here, he's.

He's basing it back to creation.

So there's something here that goes beyond Corinth.

And that's where I have struggled with how, with what this covering is and, and how this, how the layout of this goes.

And that's why I've yet to really tackle this on the podcast.

So that's why when, when we were together, I said, oh, okay, I'm gonna let you tackle it for me.

Right.

You've done the research, and I think the book makes very compelling arguments.

Again, the book is called A Covering for Glory, A Biblical Defense of Head Coverings.

You can get it@relearn.org glory.

But what is your argument for how this relates to the creation order and the angels?

Yeah, so in terms of the creation order, we know that God has given man authority even in the garden.

We know that that authority was not corrupted prior to the Fall.

We know that there.

You know, that's my argument.

Why, why Eve didn't need a head covering is because head coverings are really as a result of.

Of the Fall.

It's to demonstrate something that didn't need to be demonstrated.

In fact, you know, we see that God says to Eve, you know, your Desire shall be for your husband, but he will rule over you.

And so this is upheld throughout the old covenant, throughout the new covenant.

And, and so, again, these are symbols of that authority.

They're physical symbols of a spiritual authority structure that communicates.

And it's very helpful, by the way, it's extremely helpful for.

For church communities and church cultures.

And it preserves order.

And we live in a casualized culture which wants to reduce all types of reasons to, you know, use dress as authority.

I mean, it's really dumb because, you know, if you go anywhere, you're going to see a doctor wearing a white coat.

You're going to see a.

You're going to see a, you know, police officer wearing, you know, a police uniform.

You're gonna.

You go to on an airplane, you know exactly who to ask, ask for help because the.

The stewardess is wearing a uniform.

You know, dress communicates.

I mean, no, nobody's going to argue with that.

In fact, I actually had just recently came to the conviction of.

Of wearing the clerical collar.

And for the same reason is that, you know, people, you know, if I walked into a room, no one's gonna have any clue just because I'm wearing a suit, that I'm a pastor.

Well, I don't know about that anymore because I walk into plenty of churches and I'm the only guy in a suit, and people think I am the pastor.

We've casualized so much that even, like, you know, just respectful clothing is like, oh, you must be someone important.

And, you know, so I get that.

But it's, you know, it was a really good story that I heard from Yuri Brito, who said he went to dinner with Doug Wilson, and the.

The woman who was serving them at the end of their meal asked for prayer from Yuri.

And she.

She didn't realize that she's sitting next to one of the most influential pastors in America.

But she turns to Yuri and asked for prayer because she didn't know that Doug was a pastor, but she did know that Yuri was because he was wearing his collar.

And so, you know, there's just things like that that you can't argue that dress communicates.

And so the value is that the authority structure that is in place, which is a whole other argument, which I, you know, I actually tell people this book is not even really about head coverings.

I mean, it's there, it's.

I.

I exposit that passage of scripture, but it's really about male and female roles, distinctions, order, stations.

It's really about structure in church.

Dr.

McFall wrote a book called Good Order in the church.

It's like 600 pages.

It's about the kind of male and female order.

And I use that book extensively.

Incredible Hebrew scholar, did excellent work on this particular topic and his book was extremely helpful on, on communicating that.

So I would say yes, because the argument is rooted and anchored in things that don't change like creation, order or angels.

Then this can't be a cultural norm, this or a cultural argument.

This is anchored into, you know, everlasting realities.

And, and so that, that was a big part of the argument there, which again I, you know, it would probably do you better just to read for someone to read that particular section of the books.

I, I certainly spend several, you know, maybe 20, 30 pages on that.

It is going to be very hard for folks to in a one hour episode get all of the depth of the research that, that you've put into the book.

So just if folks are saying, well, you're not convincing me.

Well, because we're touching on highlights here.

I mean, I have a ton of questions that, that, you know, I, I'd end up because I, I think there's a lot of counter arguments people are going to make that I, I want to see you address all of them.

But we don't have time.

Right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

I mean it's, and I want to go to your point on, on the angels.

There are, and again, I'm not going to have all the scriptures here for reference, but they're, they're in the book.

But it's, we know that this is for the sake the, the, the sake of the angels.

Well, we know that the, the physical hair isn't for the sake of the angels.

The, the, because that the physical covering is your, a woman's long beautiful hair.

It's a glory to her.

We know that a woman with short hair is not glorious if she's shaven.

We know that a woman with long flowing hair, just culturally, sociologically, I mean, look at any cover of any magazine you're going to see.

I mean, if they're not feminists and weird butch stuff going on there.

But generally, historically, you see a woman with long beautiful hair and it's gorgeous.

Men are attracted.

In fact, I actually did a study on social media, but I got this from the original study that was done.

The first thing that men notice, even before breasts and butt on the body of a woman is a woman's hair.

It is so, so vitally important to men.

And so hair is a big deal for, for A woman, they know that.

Look at the, you know, you can see even like the fronts of these beautiful ships in the 1600s and the 1500s and they'd have this like mermaid or this beautiful flowing hair.

All the Disney movies, all these princesses have these beautiful flowing hair.

And so, so the hair is what makes them feminine and that is a cover to protect them and show their femininity.

The physical or the spiritual covering is for the, for the sake of the angels.

So we have angels that we know according to scripture, are looking on us as we worship.

We know that angels include demons and angel, fallen angels and non fallen angels.

And this communicates a godly order in a fallen world to an angelic realm.

And that, that's, that's again, there's so much more here.

But that, that is the, the high level discussion is that you have an audience, you have a physical audience, you have a spiritual audience and, and they're all tied in together and there's lots of commentaries on for the sake of the angels and this, there's obviously going to be varying different interpretations there, but the angels don't change.

And so we know that if this is something for the sake of the angels.

Wow.

Well, the angels haven't changed, therefore this practice hasn't changed either.

Yeah.

And the passage really for folks to look at if you have a Bible open is First Corinthians, chapter 11, verses 14, 15 that you're referring to.

It says, does not even nature itself teach you that a man, if a man has long hair, it's a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her for her hair is given to her as a covering.

Now this is one of the arguments that's made then here it says it's for the covering.

So let's, let me give the, the counter argument.

So, you know, because this is, this is, I think, I think the hair as the covering is probably the most prominent view of those who don't hold to head coverings.

I think that'd be a fair assessment I, I, I, from my study of it.

And that's why I think it's, it's best to spend the most time on that one.

There's, there's other arguments people have against it, but I think this is a primary one.

Would that be fair, you think?

Gail?

Yeah, and, and if you will, I like, I can offer you, I have the book up right here and there's some notes I can take and, and share with just the reality of the Greek behind it.

Yeah, that'd be good for folks, more convincing.

So, you know, when it says, you know, essentially we want to prove that Paul is talking about an artificial covering.

Okay, that's what we want to see in the covering.

What, you know, that our passage means he wants you to have an artificial covering.

And so if you look back, if you know, 1 Corinthians 11:4, it says, you know, every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying, dis disgraces his head.

Now, the phrase something on his head, you know, is kata khalees in the Greek.

And the only other place in the entire Bible where this exact phrase is used is Esther612.

And it's in the Septuagint, obviously, because the Old Testament is in Hebrew.

But, you know, for those you know, of you who know the story of Esther and Haman and the sabotage, you know, Esther's uncle Mordecai, you know, the king had become aware of his scheme and Haman was now forced to honor Mordecai in the public.

And in verse 12 in that passage of Scripture, it says, then Mordecai returned to the king's gate, but Haman hurried home mourning with his head covered.

Now, this phrase has head covered is K in in this Septuagint.

And the question we have to ask ourselves is, is, was the author of Esther telling us that Haman hurried home with his hair on?

No, Haman was ashamed and embarrassed and grabbed a cloak or a piece of fabric and hid himself under it.

And that is what we see this.

The phrase, you know, kata kephales in, you know, is not talking about hair as the covering, but an artificial covering.

Another instance is found in the secular Greek literature by a 1st century Greek philosopher, Plutarch.

We've all probably, if you're, if you're a pastor, you've probably read some Plutarch, he said, in an essay on the Roman general Scipio, he said, and he, Scipio came to Alexandria and, and landed and he went with his head covered.

And the Alexandrians running about him entreated him him.

He would gratify them by uncovering and showing them his desirable face.

When he uncovered his head, they clapped their hands with a loud acclamation.

Again, the exact phrase there is kata ke, and it appears it's further evidence that the hair is not the covering.

But Paul is referring to, and using the language of, of an artificial cloth that goes around the head.

And so, you know, 1 Corinthians 11:15, you know, for her hair was given to her for a covering.

Again, for those of you, you know, who know Greek, you know, you get this, this term par.

See, I'm reading it right now.

My Greek is parabolon, okay?

And, you know, I want to look at that word paraboleon.

And it's, it's the noun covering in.

For a covering.

So it's specifically dealing with that word.

And in our entire passage, the.

The root word used for cover, covering, or uncovered is.

Is kata calupto, which means to cover.

And you know, which we know is an artificial covering.

But the phrase for her hair is given to her for a covering.

Now, Paul uses a completely different word here.

This is interesting that you go, okay, wow.

So we've been using this kata, you know, kalupto word and every other spot, but then all of a sudden he uses this different word for that particular verse for a covering.

And so I think when I started getting into the exegetical side of it, and you start seeing, okay, he's talking about a physical covering, a physical covering, a physical covering, kata kapalupto, which is related to the kefales covering that we talked about earlier.

And then all of a sudden he says the hair is a covering.

And then he.

He changes the word to a different word for covering, parabolion.

And so it gives you.

So this word in the Greek means something thrown around one.

It's like a shawl, and it's the image of a shawl being thrown around a woman's head.

And so the first five instances, Paul is clearly talking about an artificial covering.

But when he argues that even nature demonstrates the principle of a covering, he uses a new word and it can be translated really, as for her hair is given to her as a beautiful shawl.

So Paul is.

Is making the point that even nature demonstrates that long hair is a glory is glorious on a woman, and.

And for this reason she has been given by God this beautiful shawl of hair.

This is.

This is essentially a vital distinction that's going to help you kind of follow along on the argument.

So that, that's.

That's a good place to stop right there.

In fact, in.

In Hebrews chapter one, verse 12, that word is translated mantle.

When it says, and like a mantle, you will roll them up like a garment, they will also be changed.

So at least in that case, the secondary word that you're.

You're using, that you're pointing out, is one that we would clearly see referring to something other than.

Than hair.

Even even though you have here, you know, the context.

It's saying if a woman has long hair, right, for her hair is given to her as a, as a mantle or cover.

So, so it is intriguing that there's two different words there for the covering.

Yeah, I think, I think that if you're a Greek speaker speaking first century Christian, you, you're just not even like, it totally makes sense to you.

You're just going, oh, like, yeah, he's talking about a covering.

We, we know those coverings as physical coverings.

And then you go, oh yeah, he's talking about hair.

Like, I get that.

Like, yeah, my, my, the Lord's given women beautiful long hair.

It's one of the problems we have to understand when we are translating is there may be certain languages that have more precision, more nuance that a different language might not.

For example, Eskimos have so many more precise definitions of snow that here we just call snow.

Or maybe, you know, you'll, you'll, we.

Like where I'm at, we might refer to it as flurries, snow and blizzard, but they have a whole lot more because they're dealing with it more and a lot can get lost.

Look at the passage in John where Jesus comes to Peter and three times says, do you, do you love me?

Love me.

So many people miss the meaning of that because so many pastors, I hate to do this, but when I go into churches and we do our Bible interpretation made easy seminar, this is a passage I bring up because so many people preach it and it preaches so well.

Peter denied him three times.

Look, he's asking, do you love me?

Three times?

And, and if you just look at the English, you lose what's actually being said there.

Because there's two different words for love in that passage.

Jesus is saying, do you agape?

Do you love me?

And Peter's saying, no, I fellow, I, I, I have a brotherly love for you.

So he asks him a second time, do you agape and I have a brotherly love for you.

The third time he says, do you feto?

So now the third time he's asking, do you actually, do you really love me at the level you're claiming?

That's why Peter was grieved that he asked him a third time, do you fillet.

Oh, it's not that he asked three times that he was grieved.

It was because Jesus is saying, do you have an agape love for me?

And he's saying, I have a brotherly love for you.

And now he's even questioning that.

So sometimes again in a case like this, we have two different words.

For English we're using covered.

And yet they're two different words in Greek.

That becomes something we have to then dig into to say, okay, why is Paul doing that?

What is the author trying to get at with that?

This is, this is the importance of studying our, the Bible.

You can't just come into the Bible and go like I'm going to rush in and rush out and, and let me just encourage folks, while you're listening, if you do want to dig in deeper into studying the word of God, let me encourage you to look into getting Bible software called Logos.

Lagos Bible Software is some great software and with their newest release, if you've heard about Logos before and said, yeah, I can't afford that, I would have to take out a mortgage on my home.

Yeah, it used to be that way, but they now have a subscription based thing.

So if you want to get into digging into the script scriptures, you want to say, well, I want to know what Dale's actually saying.

As Dale's talking, I'm pulling up the Greek in just a few clicks in my Lagos software.

You could do that too.

Go to lagos.com SFE SFE stands for Striving for Eternity.

That lets them know that you heard about them from us.

And I believe they're still giving five free books when you come through Striving for eternity.

So it's lagos.comsfe to get some Logos Bible software.

I think it's the premium software out today for doing Bible study.

And that will help you to dig into as, as Dale is saying because scripture does tell us we have to have our women have to have their head covers.

What does it mean?

You got to dig into scriptures to know and that's the importance of having good Bible software.

So Dale, with that, I think some make the argument that the, the reference to creation, the reference to angels is dealing with just the authority issue, not the physical wearing of something on your head.

I, I said I wanted to get back to verse three for the people who make that argument.

I now as we talked before, I'm not someone that's convinced that women need to wear their heads, wear something on their heads in, in church.

But I could be convinced from the text.

Right, but I think this is a really bad argument for people to make anyway because of verse three to try to say, well, that the, to me the overarching issue is not the head coverings, it's the authority.

Yeah, it's the authority and you don't want to display it.

It's It's a, Especially in a feminist culture where it's new.

I mean, I actually opened up the book with a story of my wife.

It's called, like, looking Strange for God.

And, and she, you know, she had her own journey of like, you know, this is weird, putting on a head covering.

It wasn't weird for anybody in previous generations.

I mean, you were a child wearing a bonnet to church.

It's just, that's just what it is.

You look at, you know, Little House in the Prairie.

I mean, it's just normal Christian life historically, but now it's a display of your femininity, of your submission, of your reverence.

And so I, I would say, yes, women have a.

A struggle because of the fall with the structure of verse three.

But I think that actually verse seven and eight and nine are actually harder verses because you go for a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

So we have, have different and distinct glories.

We're not the same.

And we live in an amalgam, amalgamized, androgynous kind of culture that wants us to be egalitarian in the same.

And, and in fact, man is the glory of God and woman is the glory of man.

And so, so, you know, there's this, this, this kind of preeminency or superiority not in value, but in station.

And that's a key understanding.

And, and, and by station, I mean authority.

And the ESV translates this whole passage of scripture as wife instead of woman.

I actually believe that the argument, the whole argument's between man and woman versus husbands and wives.

And so that, that's a whole other discussion.

But you can look again in the book on that.

But it says in verse nine or in verse eight, it says, for man does not originate from woman, but woman from man.

So it's talking about God, who was created.

First chronological article argument.

And woman came from man.

But obviously he goes back later, says, but all come from.

From woman, essentially through birth.

But then in verse 9 it says, for indeed, man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake.

I mean, that's where the feminists really start getting pissed, is that.

That women were created for men and from men.

And so that is, again, this, these coverings represent all of that.

And it's really restoring order in.

Among God's people in a chaotic society that wants to be disordered.

And so I think that's really the also.

Let me just ask you the question.

Let's just say that you get to a place where you're like, this could be right, And I'm kind of just 50, 50.

I'm on the fence.

I go, well, what's the downside?

Like, would you rather, you know, go before the Lord and go, you know what?

I really wasn't completely sure, but so I decided to, My wife decided to cover her head out of a reverence.

And, and by the way, like, women look awesome with head coverings.

I mean, they just look more attractive.

I mean, like, you just look at a woman, woman wearing a shawl on her head, and like, there's paintings throughout church history, and they're just beautiful.

I mean, they're just like, it's just a beautiful, glorious thing.

But let's just say, you know, you get before the Lord.

Obviously, this is hypothetical, you know, hey, I, I, I never really knew, but I thought I would just essentially be safe, you know, Would you rather stand there and go, you know what?

I was not sure, but I didn't do it anyways.

And you're like, well, God's like, well, it was a command.

You know, I think there's just an element there.

You just go, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna err on the side of covering because there's no downside.

In fact, there's many, many upsides, especially in our generation.

And again, I know that's not the, the argument you want to anchor on, but it's one of, it's one of the many arguments.

If you do all the exegesis and you still land on the fence, it.

Is the same safer position, I think, is what you're saying, and I think that's accurate.

Because if God is commanding women to put a covering on their head other than their hair, if that is the command and you do it, even if you're doing it out of ignorance, okay, you're, you're following the command.

But if it is a command and you're not doing it because, well, I haven't studied or, or something like that, you know, well, now that's, you're, you're, you're disobedient.

So I think, I think you make a really good point there of the.

As far as if you're not sure if you're on the fence, we should, you know, do we take the safer argument until we do the study to be convinced otherwise?

Because the, the ultimate issue, I think, in this passage is about the authority issue, which was an issue back then, is an issue today.

And has always been an issue, I think, ever since the fall, and that it's because Paul's whole argument is based in creation here.

Yes.

Yeah.

And by the way, let me just go back real quick because I, I found this quote from the RC Sproul, as he said, he said, all I know is this.

There might be a commandment in scripture that requires a woman to cover her head in worship, but there is, is certainly not a commandment in scripture that forbids a woman from covering her head in worship.

Therefore, the woman who covers her head is merely taking the safer and more logical position.

End quote.

And I loved that from Sproul.

There's another quote from Sproul in this, in the book that I have.

He says, you know, essentially, I can't find it right this segment.

He grows up, always seen women covering his head.

He said, when he was a child, obviously, you know, that was almost, you know, almost a decade or almost a century ago now, you know.

And so I think that there's just again, that safer position, I think, between history, the historical argument, which is vital and easy to be convinced by.

I think the exegetical argument is persuasive at the very least.

I think the kind of argument of conviction that I just shared with you right now and because all of that, again, is anchored in creation and angels and the unchanging authorities, structure, and we live in a time of feminist ideological overthrow, I just think that we're going to see a massive wave of godly women that push into head coverings.

And I think the arguments that the other popular argument is, you know, oh, it's just a symbol.

It can be like your wedding ring is like the equivalent of today's head covering.

You know, but I go.

That argument I, I try to deal with too, is that I go, where, where do you separate in Scripture a practice from its symbols?

Never like, you know, I know it's sane water should be involved in baptism, but let's use wind.

Okay, let's just, you know, you would never separate a practice from its symbol.

No, no, the, the COVID A covering is a covering.

And so, so to say that the covering is a wedding ring, which is interesting because Doug Wilson, you know, who has, you know, been kind of a mentor to me, holds that position.

John MacArthur holds that position too.

Or, or something.

They, they both hold something near to that.

And so, so again, I think they, they just started their ministries in the midst of like, the height of throwing off the old way.

And I really see Gen Z, fascinatingly, you've probably seen this as a pastor, lots of young people coming into our church that are going back to the old paths basically like the boomer's parents way.

And, and in fact also we also sadly are seeing thousands upon thousands of Christians going to EO and to, to Rome.

Yeah.

And, and you know what's pulling them, some of them in is head coverings.

They're seeing that the women over there are actually submissive head covering wearing women.

And all these men are running over there because they're just looking for a, a non feminist woman in today's, you know, chaotic age.

And so, so there, there is a lot going on around this particular practice.

Well, I, one of the things I find so interesting, and I think this was your testimony as well that you mentioned, is how many men I know have started studying out the issue of head coverings change their view, but it was their wives that were first convinced before them.

So, so because this is the, the perception I think many have is that it's some man who is lording it over the woman and saying, you will do this because you will submit to me.

And yet what granted, just anecdotal evidence is not proof.

But ever for me, every single man I know who changed his view on this issue had a wife who first was convinced.

And I just find that fascinating.

And I don't know if that's more widespread than I know it certainly.

So women tend, so one godly Christian women typically, by the way I've also learned this through ministry is that women who are loved, heard and cherished almost never have a problem with this passage of scripture.

I mean they read it face value, they just cover their head.

It's, it's women who have either been told by their husband husbands to not cover or women who have terrible husbands and they don't want to demonstrate or display the authority their husband has over them.

And so, so when I, when I see women that are, that are like so against head covering, I either go, okay, well maybe they're just ignorant, they haven't studied the topic.

But if they have read it or they have studied and they are still pushing against it, usually it's indicative of something going on at home.

That's just been a generalization.

But like I posted a thing on, on X today and it happened to have a little bit of virality and it was a picture of my wife with her head covered reading the Bible to our kids this morning during homeschool.

And you know, there's all these left wing libs that are quote tweeting it.

I mean, I mean hundreds of them people, you know, Christian Taliban is what one says.

These kids, these kids look like they're terrified.

The feminine poverty, that head covering, laughing my A off, you know, what in the f.

Is this?

What is on her head?

This poor woman looks like a slave.

Okay, so over and over and over.

But, but this is coming from women who, who also are saying that to prove that they have, that they're, you know, have power over men.

They go on only, only fans and display themselves.

Right.

Okay.

Just, I mean the, the first wave feminists were trying to say we're not sex, just sex objects.

We're more.

We, you know, we could do things.

And now feminism has taught them, has reverted right back where.

Now it's the feminists saying, no, we're sex objects.

Like.

Yeah.

You have no, no knowledge of the history of feminine.

Like first wave feminism would be yelling at the modern day feminists today.

Oh yeah, yeah, totally.

Yeah.

It's absolutely insane.

So it's certainly, again, I think that we're about to see a whole pendulum shift, starting with the reform community.

I don't, I think the, the that Rome and EO I, I don't really think they've had much of a, of a break from this like Protestantism has, but I think low church casualized Protestantism has essentially become the laughingstock of, of Christendom in the sense of its, its lack of seriousness.

And so I think a lot of Christians, young Christians specifically are not looking for, you know, they're not looking for rock band Christianity and anymore they're not looking for kind of the, you know, wear shorts to church, you know, you know, again, casualized Christianity.

They're looking for something more serious.

Now.

I, I want to stay with the regulative principle of worship, but they're looking for, you know, more beautiful buildings.

They're, they're understanding architecture, they're understanding addresses on women, they're understanding head coverings, they're understanding clerical, you know, vestments or, or some of those things that might be discussed.

They're understanding the returning to, you know, hymns and, and piano and some of the more beautiful instruments and, and liturgy and, and you know, some of the deeper things that historically the church has done.

And, and so I think head coverings is kind of part of this whole kind of revival toward, you know, we've seen the trad wives and the trad life and some of those things that have been returning.

I, I think it's all good things.

I think it's great things.

I think it's order being restored and people are mocking it and calling it, oh, trad and blah, blah, blah.

No, I, I just think that it's just normal biblical life when you have a wife that wants to, you know, cover her head and homeschool her kids and read the Bible.

But.

But I do think that we're going to see a resurgence of women wearing head coverings in mass.

I'm talking potentially millions over the next, like, 10 years.

Yeah.

I mean, you bring up something a friend of mine, Matt Slick, and I, have been discussing.

There seems to be a resurgence of Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, and we've been trying to, like, figure out, you know, like, why.

I mean, we're seeing, you know, guys like Russell Brand who go out there and everyone wants to follow him, and it's like, oh, he talks a lot about Jesus.

And then you go, oh, wait, but he's talking Catholicism, like, that's a different Jesus.

And so that's a, That's a fascinating subject that I've been.

Matt and I have been discussing recently.

But a last question that I have for you is, you know, I, I'm starting to see as.

As you're explaining a shift, and I am seeing it within reform circles of women wanting to wear head coverings, then guys studying it and changing positions.

And I, I am seeing that more and more.

Do you think, as someone who has studied this and, and researched it, do you think that this shift to head coverings is, you know, in response to what we've been seeing?

I mean, we're seeing a response to.

To the feminism that has been gone on for years.

You know, look, we.

That.

Not to get political, but the, this past election, what.

What do we see?

We saw so much of, you know, the only vote that mattered for years was the woman vote.

The one vote.

The one vote, and Trump wins.

And a lot of people are going, oh, he won on this masculinity.

And like, a bunch of guys just said, enough of this.

My vote counts too.

It seems like there's.

There seems to be a rebellion against the feminism culturally because they're just so sick of being told they have to be feminist men.

They have to.

You know, because now it's not even that.

They have now.

They just have to be women, period.

Like, now.

No, you're.

You have to be a woman.

The, the feminist.

The feminist created this problem.

They created Andrew Tate.

They created monsters on the other side.

They.

They are biblical Christianity, Biblical patriarchy.

Biblical order needs to return as the.

The old way restored.

And again, we've thrown off everything in the church growth movement and the pageantry.

We've thrown off all structure, all beauty, all uniforms, all, you know, we've gone low church to the max and, and I think we are needing to return back to again, regulative principle of worship.

But what would like a puritan church look like in, you know, the 1750s?

And you go back there and you go, okay, yeah, you walk in, it's probably a cute little colonial style church with a steeple and a bell, church bell that's ringing and you have probably a pastor investments or wearing a collar.

You have women wearing dresses and head coverings.

You have men wearing suits.

Everybody's got their Bible in hand.

You got a beautiful pew, our beautiful pews, beautiful pulpit that is kind of like the throne for the word of God.

You have, you know, singing, that's congregational.

You're probably singing more hymns.

And so I, I, I think again, we are seeing feminism is, is a bigger problem than the church realized and how it feminized men and pastors.

Because again, I don't think this p.

I don't think this passage of scripture is hard to understand.

I think it's hard to swallow.

I, I think that it's, I think that it's.

Men are so afraid of women, especially pastors.

They are, they, you know, we know, historically, statistically, church splits happen because of women.

Women have the power to break a church apart.

And so, so I think that men have not pastored women by and large for like the last 50 years.

They have been like the unpastored portion of the church.

They have been generally pastored, but men calling out women's sins has been extremely rare.

They, they have, they'll hit.

You know, we see this always in like, you know, I use it as a kind of a funny joke, but, you know, on Father's Day, it's like, you know, be a man, do hard work better.

You know, step it up.

You know, Mother's Day, it's like you're perfect.

You're just stay the same, you know, and, and so we, we want to get to a place where, where pastors are not just the pastors of the men, not just the pastors of the, of the children, but they're the pastors of the women.

And if you're willing to pastor the women and you're not afraid of the women and, and the women in your church will actually be willing to not just be preached at, but be pastored, then you can get to a place where you can, you can get to a, a text like First Corinthians 11, teach it without fear, and go, you know what?

I think evidence is all on the side of wearing head coverings and not worry that your women are going to go all up in arms, cause a massive division in your church, call you some sort of misogynistic pig, and break your church apart.

But I think that is exactly the reason why it wasn't taught for the last several decades.

And, and I think that we're returning now.

Finally.

Women are like, you know what?

Feminism sucks.

And this is, this has been terrible for everybody.

We're starting to see how.

Where this is going.

And I think that it's actually quite glorious to have a godly, masculine man and for me to wear a dress and stay at home and not work in a cubicle.

And there's, there's, there's more reception to this discussion around head coverings.

Yeah.

It's interesting as you hear guys Preach through Ephesians 5 and what do they have?

They get to the passage, you know, women submit to your husbands, and, and all the talk is about what submission doesn't mean.

Yeah.

And then it's, men love your wives.

Right.

I just always found that an interesting thing.

And, you know, you, you mentioned about the, the splits in churches.

I've often said the, the, the most splits in churches start in women's ministry because, because you.

The pastors are preaching to men about men's sins, things like that.

But women's ministries are.

We actually have a podcast called Thoroughly Equipped with Melissa Lex.

And what she does is review women's ministries because so much of what is called women's ministries isn't ministry.

I mean, it's, it's, it's false teaching and heresy in, in, you know, clouded in women talk.

And so she exposes that because so much of it, it's, you know, my bride is.

It's great.

You know, they'd have women's Bible studies in church and, and she'll be like, yeah, I don't want to do that.

I'd rather go, like, if there's a woman's conferences, I'd rather go with you to a pastor's conference.

I don't need all that fluff.

I.

Give me the Bible, you know.

Yeah.

Like, I actually, at our church, I.

So we, we have four quadrants of our, of our women's.

What they do is, is one, they do women teaching older women, teaching younger women.

So we do that for a quarter.

So Titus 2, the second quarter of the year, we do A book study and a book study that is approved by the elders of the church and the questions for the study are developed by the elders of the church.

Oh, interesting.

I like that.

And then, and then, then part three is I actually teach an 8 to 12 week study at the women's gathering.

So I come to the women's meetings and I actually give full blown lectures for if we're doing systematic theology or something.

So, so they're learning it, but they're learning it from their pastor, which is what has always happened historically.

And then the fourth quadrant of the year is we do a coed Bible study together.

And so that, that structure has been really good for us.

So the women are never like on their own learning theology without the oversight of a pastor.

Yeah, that's, that's interesting to do.

So.

So let me, let me get back to the question because I think it is an interesting question.

Do you how much of you.

We are both noticing, you and I both mentioned we're noticing this trend and it's starting with women of wanting to wear head coverings, men following at least within reform circles.

But, and I've noticed that there's now more so starting to be a trend of both men and women looking for masculinity, looking to, to not follow what they're calling feminism today.

Do you think that the trend of head coverings is because of this trend against feminism and for masculinity just in, in America today?

Or do you, do you maybe see.

Because you were mentioning that you're seeing people go into Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy because of possibly head covering or other things.

What, what are you attributing this, this shift to with women want to wear head covers.

I don't think that the cause of head coverings is, is the feminism reverting back to traditionalism.

I think that it's the scriptures that are very clear.

But as feminism loses its grip on the church because there's always been this clean form of feminism in the church that we're finally able to obey without, you know, fear.

And we've, we've truly been able to have, we've had a cowardice in the church for a long time.

And I think that the removal of feminism is allowing men to pastor the women again.

And head coverings just kind of seems to be square at the center of the discussion.

You know, I wrote another book called the Manliness of Christ.

It's kind of like the, the partner copy to cover for glory, but it's for men.

And I'm trying to essentially One side, boost up the masculinity of men, but based off of the masculinity of Christ.

And then, you know, as you've read in A Cover for Glory, it's, it's really about what does it mean to be a feminine woman?

And, and it kind of ties into head coverings.

And so we're actually like, Those are the two books that we sell the most.

We sell over 100 copies of each of those a month.

Month.

And I don't market them honestly.

Like, I mean, I'm, I'm on a podcast, but I'm not like, I don't have any, like, ads going for these books.

And so there seems to be certainly a hunger to sell a hundred copies a month on head coverings.

That's a new, that's a new thing, you know.

Yeah, I'm, I'm actually surprised by that.

And, and again, folks, to get a copy and look, you.

I don't.

I think you've mentioned the title once in this whole podcast episode.

I think I've, I'm the one promoting it for folks.

But, but you can go to relearn.org glory to get a copy of A Cover for Glory.

A Biblical defense ahead coverings.

I, I don't.

Dale and myself are not saying you must believe what the, what this book is saying.

I don't think that's your position now.

But no, may it be something that we at least research, study, dig into.

And, and I think a compelling argument that, that I'm, you know, I'm dealing with is, is like you said, the, the quote from R.C.

sproul was, was a powerful one of just saying it's a safer position.

If you're not sure this is the safer position to hold to until you are sure.

That becomes a very intriguing.

Point, by the way.

Like, I, I've also, personally, I've never taught on First Corinthians 11 at my church, so people always have this, you know, view, oh, Dale must enforce head coverings at his church.

I, I don't actually, in fact, I, I haven't taught on it once since we planted the church.

One day I'll get to First Corinthians 11 and I'll teach on it.

But we actually, you know, we have women in our church that don't cover and I haven't said a thing to any of them.

So I really do let it sit on, on the family's conscience.

I believe it's a secondary matter and, but I do answer.

I do a Q and A at the end of the book of Common questions that I think most women and men and pastors have said has been one of the most helpful sections of the book.

Like, what do you do if you come to this position?

What do you do if I'm a pastor and come to this position?

What do you do if my husband's against this position and I'm for this position?

You know, so there's all types of stuff that are answered there.

And so that's my hope is that it's just one of the tools contributing to the conversation around head coverings for the church, which is really a conversation about restoring order among men and women.

So again, the book is a Cover for Glory, A biblical defense of Head coverings.

You can get it at reorg.org or relearn.

Sorry.

Relearn.org Glory Dale, anything else you'd like to share with folks?

Any, any things you have going on with your ministry that we, that listeners should know about?

I mean, the one thing is if you want to listen to the audiobook of a Cover for Glory or have it as an ebook, it's available in the Relearn app.

All my books are available in there as well as hundreds, almost, almost a thousand audiobooks in there now.

We've, we've just spent so much time modernizing great puritan work.

We, we just put in some William Gouge content.

Reformation Heritage just did a big piece on them.

But we, we are, we did one called the Beauty of Submission.

We've got the Mission of Womanhood.

There's so many great topics in there for women, for men, for kids, in high quality narrated audiobooks.

I'm an audio guy and I just.

When you drive a lot and you have travels and so I, I just, you know, it's a tool that's available for you and it's, we're nonprofit, so it's a way to support us as a ministry to keep producing great content for families.

That would be my only encouragement is check that out and a great way to support what we're doing.

Again folks, relearn.org glory hey, get a copy of the book, read through it.

See what your position is.

See where you agree.

Disagree with Dale and maybe you'll change your view, maybe you won't.

But may it at least encourage you to dig into the scriptures more that of all would be, I think the thing that both Dale and I would encourage, um, whether you agree with one or both of us or neither of us, at least dig into the scriptures because the scriptures, God's word is Far more important than anything that Dale has written or anything that I have written.

Amen.

So with that, Dale, thanks.

Thanks for coming on.

I think this was.

I think this will be helpful for many.

I think that your book really got me having to deal with some thinking through.

You know, it's an.

As a passage, like I said, I studied at a surface level.

There were some interesting things as I studied through it when, when I got to the area of, you know, again, you always come with your presuppositions.

My presupposition, as I was taught, was this is dealing with hair.

There was some issues in the Greek that I was struggling with that view and, and I haven't really returned to it because I be honest, I just put it off going, well, I had so many other things.

I knew it was going to take more work.

It's a podcast episode that I, I had for years.

The people said, would you, would you cover this?

No pun intended.

Sorry about that.

But here we are.

There we are.

But, but, you know, I was glad when, when you and I were on the Dead Man Walking podcast, I was like, well, I'm definitely going to have you on because it'll force me to have to address this issue and so it'll get me studying it a bit more.

So I do want to thank you personally for that.

Amen, brother.

Thanks for having me.

And folks, with that, I do want to let you know, February, I think it is the 20th, I'm going to look it up 22nd.

But we will be at.

There is a conference you could go to caleb gordon.org we're going to be having a conference there in Oklahoma and that is something that we just recently popped up on the schedule.

So to get tickets.

A lot of great preachers.

One of my favorite preachers and most of you are going to mention this name and you're going to go, who is he?

He is one of my top, probably my top 10 preachers is Brandon Scalf.

And if you don't know that name, you should come to this conference just to hear him.

Yes, I put him up there with the preaching of guys like John MacArthur and, well, my favorite preacher, Jim Osmond, who's another one.

If you don't know his preaching yet, go, go get the Kootenay Community Church podcast that's part of the Christian podcast community to listen to to that.

But you can get tickets.

Just go to caleb gordon.org it's part of the Caleb Gordon show and join that conference.

Tickets are, I think about $50 right now.

So that is not that steep for a conference with great speakers.

It's a one day conference, so you, you, if you're local, you don't have to worry about hotels, things like that.

But if you are local, well, I'm sure we're going to find something to do Friday night, Saturday night if you want to stay over both nights.

But hope to see you there.

And folks with that, that's a wrap.

This podcast is part of the Striving for Eternity ministry.

For more content or to request a.

Speaker or seminar to your church, go to Striving for eternity dot org.