PART 3

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 25 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here. So we met once a week. Now some of these kids had actually not attended a school building in, two years, but they came to art club every single week. And they read the book, they did all the artwork that you see in the tired of Anxiety book.

[00:00:22] Sarah: And they looked at the language they told us, if any of the language in the book didn't work for them, if they didn't understand it, if the words were too big or too small or too Irish or too American or whatever they told us, we changed it accordingly. so everything that you see in the Tired of Anxiety book, the one for kids.

[00:00:38] Sarah: has been vetted by kids and all the artwork in it was done by the kids that, that attend the clinic.

[00:00:46] Ross: Peasoopers, this is it. The last part of my chat with Dr. Sarah Cassidy. It's the dramatic climax. Sarah is an educational child and adolescent psychologist.

[00:00:57] Ross: And now that we've set the scene, we dive into her book, co written with Dr. Lisa Coyne. And the book is called, Tired of Anxiety, A Kid's Guide to Befriending Difficult Thoughts and Feelings and Living Your Life Anyway.

[00:01:10] Ross: So in this episode you'll hear about how the book came to be, the collaboration with Dr Lisa Coyne, the other books in the series, and how Sarah helps kids to reflect on their choices, notice the difficult stuff, and move forward, building skills for their whole lives.

[00:01:26] Ross: You'll also hear about the art for the book. My review, and how toxic positivity organisations and in family units. We finish with a highly useful takeaway from Sarah. Pe PeopleSoup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence [00:02:00] based behavioural science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun, to help you glow to work a bit more often.

[00:02:07] Ross: Let's just scoot over to the news desk, for I am delighted to announce that I'll be running an Act in the Workplace Train the Trainer course in April and May next year, over four sessions and in partnership with Joe Oliver at Contextual Consulting. I'm super excited about this and you'll find all the links in the show notes.

[00:02:27] Ross: And reviews are in for part two of my chat with Sarah. There was a lot of love for this episode and Arianna Prudenzi, friend of the show and former guest said, your exciting new projects. Looking forward to our symposium and reconnecting with you soon. And to future projects together too.

[00:02:47] Ross: And again on Facebook, Meg Buckley said, Great stuff! Love this take on labelling. Thanks to everyone who listened, shared and rated Part 2 with Sarah. Your support is what makes the PeopleSoup community so special. So please do keep listening and sharing and letting me know what you think.

[00:03:04] Ross: If you make some noise about the podcast and our guests, we'll reach more people with stuff that could be useful.

[00:03:10] Ross: For now, get a brew on and have a listen to part 3 of my chat with Sarah Cassidy. Now we're, we're gonna talk about your book, Sarah, that Tired of Anxiety, A Kid's Guide to Befriending Scary Thoughts and Living Your Life.

[00:03:29] Ross: Anyway, by Sarah Cassidy and Lisa Coyne. And I've actually read it and I've written a review and I'd love to share it with

[00:03:36] Sarah: Brilliant. Thank you

[00:03:38] Sarah: so.

[00:03:38] Ross: p super's, Sarah hasn't heard this review, so this is, this is a fresh, a fresh experience for her. So here's my review. Shantay you stay Bravo and thank you to Sarah and Lisa. This is an extraordinary book written by world leading experts in the field, and it makes the concepts from Acceptance and Commitment Therapy absolutely [00:04:00] accessible, useful, and fun for kids.

[00:04:02] Ross: I spend much of my time sharing the same skills with adults in the workplace, and I've lost count of the times that parents come and ask me during the training if there's any resources for their children. it's here. This is it. This is that resource, and there are more volumes to come. It comes with an introductory guide for parents, and I'd like to read an extract from that.

[00:04:25] Ross: It says, this book was written for children with anxiety. The children that have already used the techniques in this book are real children with real anxiety from real families. They met in groups together, they practiced the skills together and they even created some of the art in this book based upon their experiences.

[00:04:43] Ross: For me, this book should be sent free by governments to all children of about seven years of age, and I couldn't be more serious about that. I said to you earlier, Sarah Times, I was quite emotional reading this book cuz it's such a gift. I would've devoured it at that age. And I can just really imagine sitting down and reading this with my mum and us exploring it and getting so much out of it together. So don't hesitate folks. Go out and buy this for every child in your life. And just to finish just now, when I thought I couldn't love it anymore, there are audio recordings which add a whole new level to the skills that I shared. I've been listening to the audio recording, Sarah, love them.

[00:05:24] Sarah: thanks Ross and those audio recordings are actually me speaking directly to the kids I was working with at that time, and I'm glad you felt them.

[00:05:37] Ross: Oh

[00:05:37] Sarah: Yeah, yeah.

[00:05:39] Rationale for Book

[00:05:39] Sarah: And I can, I know, I know your audience member can't see you right now, but I can see you. So I, I appreciate that very much. um, and sometimes my, um, middle child will have me play those recordings to him, which I think is really sweet because, There's probably not a lot of kids that, that want their mom to [00:06:00] do that, but hopefully he won't listen to this, or hopefully his friends won't hear this. But, um, it's a difficult thing. I think anxiety and, like I was saying earlier it's like you need to step inside it, and I think for each kid it can be a little bit different. And I think a lot of the messaging that we give kids around anxiety, like, you should feel something different or you should do something different, or, you know, just do the thing.

[00:06:31] Sarah: Just get over it. Just be done with it. that's not what I wanted to do with this book. And I remember many years ago, before I was such good friends with Lisa Cohn, I remember hearing her talk about anxiety. And, and I remember I had been, treating anxiety for a number of years and thinking that, like, I just, I just wasn't quite getting it myself, you know?

[00:06:54] Sarah: And I, I thought, God, it, I mean, I'm good with kids. I love kids. I have kids. What am I getting wrong? there was some bit of it that I just wasn't quite kind of wrapping my fingers around. And when I, when I heard Lisa speaking one time, I thought, oh, there was something fundamentally different that she was doing.

[00:07:12] Sarah: And she and I started working together around that time. And, we wrote this book together, but one of the things I wanted to do was, what I do in a clinic session. And, and that's what we're doing in this book. Like, if you came to me in a clinic hour, that's what this book is, is, is session by session.

[00:07:29] Sarah: What you'd get if you came to me in a clinic hour and we sat and we, we trolled through what your experience would be like. We would explore what is it like for you where I wouldn't tell you what you should be feeling. I would ask you, and we would explore it together. And I would invite you, write it down on this page or think about it or listen to this mindfulness piece and, and take your time, you know, in your own [00:08:00] time.

[00:08:00] Potential Audiogram

[00:08:00] Sarah: Explore this and, and play with it and draw on the page or go away and, and have a walk or have a listen and take your time, not in a clinic hour, not when there's 30 other people on the waiting list. But please take your time. This is for you. This is not for me or your mother, or your teacher or your auntie.

[00:08:21] Sarah: This is your life. what do you want it to be about? And, and I don't wanna tell you what it should be like. I want, this is your precious life, you know, Mary Oliver says, what do you wanna do with your one wild and precious life? And, and I believe that, I believe that your life and your time are precious.

[00:08:40] Sarah: And I don't care if you're seven or you're 50, this is for you. your time is precious. And, and I don't care if you're, if you're, if your mother's busy, you know, I, I don't give a flying. Can I say F U C K? You know, I, I, I,

[00:08:54] Sarah: I, Yeah, I, I don't care. if you're four years old, your time is precious and what is important to you?

[00:09:01] Sarah: And, and let's take the time, as much time as you need, and let's, let's sit with it. And if you need the whole hour to sit with it and, you know, draw on one piece of paper, or if it's one hour, if it's 50 hours, let's take that time, whatever you need. Because what we're doing here is we are playing the long game.

[00:09:24]

[00:09:24] Autonomy - the long game

[00:09:24] Sarah: we have a lot of kids that are coming to us and they're, super anxious and they're not able to get back to school and everything becomes about aversive control, And their lives are smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller, and everything becomes about dragging them in the school gates, you know, and we are going to get them back to school.

[00:09:45] Sarah: And believe me, I get it. You know, I, I absolutely get it. That. We want that, of course we want to get them back to school. I completely understand. But if everything becomes about [00:10:00] forcing a child or shoving them back in, like, how much do you want to do that thing? if you have absolutely no control over anything, you know, that's just horrendous.

[00:10:12] Sarah: If a child has no freedom or no choice, and, and like if you put yourself inside those shoes, are you gonna do that thing? Are you gonna wanna do that thing when you can exercise zero control? Of course you're not. Of course you're not. I always, I always like the example of, at what point does it become about letting the child choose, at what point does it become about letting go and, and that moment where the child says, I choose this, and if we can get a child, or, you know, our, our next book is teenagers.

[00:10:49] Sarah: That book's already is already finished actually, so that'll be out in September.

[00:10:52] The Long Game

[00:10:52] Sarah: But at what point does it shift from me as a parent, with my hands on a child's back, corralling a child in the school gates and, and a teacher firmly holding a child and sort of pulling them in and grabbing them in the classroom.

[00:11:08] Sarah: So a child has zero control to a child saying, this is incredibly difficult and I am moving my feet in the school gates. I am choosing that this is hard. feels like it's impossible and I am doing it. I mean, from the outside it might look very, very different. But if we can have that situation, but with the child choosing it, that's the long game.

[00:11:32] Sarah: So it's, it's not about just one day, if a parent thinks or a school or a teacher think that it's only about getting the child into school that's fundamentally wrong. It's not about just getting them in the school gates. It's about the child choosing and we need to get that piece right And, and if we don't get that piece right, like I would rather spend, I'd rather spend six weeks understanding how to get the child to [00:12:00] choose how to get them in the gates than any other thing.

[00:12:03] Sarah: Cause if we can get that piece right, then you've got the long game.

[00:12:07] Ross: mm.

[00:12:08] Sarah: so I, I think what you, what you heard in those audio recordings, Ross, was me talking directly to the kids that, that I was working with at that time and the art club kids. that was a very, very special project. And we did that during Covid and we often do, we do a lot of mental health projects here at, at Smithfield Clinic and at ncoa. And we were, when we were doing the art club project, we had decided, because myself and Lisa were writing the book, we thought, God, wouldn't it be cool if some of the kids that were attended the clinic at the time, and we were, we were writing the book anyway, so I thought, wouldn't it be cool if some of the kids had a look at the book and had a read of it and said does the language, you know, cause I, I knew actually that.

[00:12:51] Sarah: this way of speaking to kids, I knew that it worked when kids attended me in clinic. I knew that, because I could see them, I could see their faces when they were talking to me in clinic, but I didn't know if when they brought the book away and read it, would it work for them then?

[00:13:07] Sarah: So I sent the book, or you know, I had, so I wanted for the kids to come, um, in to kind of meet with, meet in a group once a week. And I thought, wouldn't it be cool if they met once a week, read the book together, maybe did some of the activities and maybe did some of the artwork. And so we had them do that and, um, we were, we were going to have them do it, and then Covid hit. So I was like, uhoh, how are we gonna do this? But we had this local, um, service here allowed me the education training board. And I rang them up and I said, um, would you mind if we use, they had this giant kind of an old home ec room and a really tall ceilings. It was really well ventilated. And I said, would you mind if we use that, that room?

[00:13:51] Sarah: And they really kindly said, yes, we could abide by all the, all the covid procedures.

[00:13:57] Vetted by kids

[00:13:57] Sarah: So we met once a week. Now some of these kids had actually not [00:14:00] attended a school building in, two years, but they came to art club every single week. And they read the book, they did all the artwork that you see in the tired of Anxiety book.

[00:14:12] Sarah: And they looked at the language they told us, if any of the language in the book didn't work for them, if they didn't understand it, if the words were too big or too small or too Irish or too American or whatever they told us, we changed it accordingly. so everything that you see in the Tired of Anxiety book, the one for kids.

[00:14:28] Sarah: has been vetted by kids and all the artwork in it was done by the kids that, that attend the clinic.

[00:14:35] Ross: Hmm. And that, that shines through. I think that's so powerful, Sarah. And what also shines through is what you were describing that this, you are not suggesting how someone might feel you are exploring with them and giving them literal space in the book to, to record that or draw it or.

[00:14:53] Sarah: yeah,

[00:14:54] Ross: And be, be curious and sort of setting the expectation that there could be a whole range of responses to the questions you ask. There's not a right or a wrong, and that is so, so powerful.

[00:15:04] Sarah: yeah, yeah. and I mean, we, we said that each week, like, we just want you to show up and, and we know that this is hard. And we really appreciate you, you giving your time to us and you helping us with this book, and you helping us with this project. And, even them taking part in Art Club was a natural exposure for them.

[00:15:28] Sarah: we had an art exhibition at the end of it and they all turned up for each other and it was just a very cool, it was a very cool project. And, it was actually a very, it was kind, it was a very emotional project for me too, because, I get really annoyed at kind of the systems and all the things we can't do right. For kids, you know, but by thought, okay, we got art club. Right. All these super anxious kids. And, they were really excited about their artwork and they were really excited to see that the artwork wound up in the book.

[00:15:55] Sarah: um,

[00:15:57] Ross: it's again, it feels innovative and so [00:16:00] original, but so powerful for them. And so it just, For me, it increases the accessibility level

[00:16:07] Sarah: yeah,

[00:16:08] Sarah: yeah,

[00:16:08] Process

[00:16:08] Sarah: it was very cool and it was very cool to see the art that they produced. And it was very cool to see, like art, the L M E T B building is a school. And so for kids that had not set foot in a school in two years, coming every week to a school and we were there and they were reading a book and we were teaching them art, like everything about that was school.

[00:16:32] Sarah: And they were turning up every week, and then we put their work on display with other school kids. there was not a more natural exposure for anxious kids in the entire world, and they did it, you know, it was just, it's incredible.

[00:16:46] Ross: Excellent. A amazing, amazing work. And what was the process of writing the book? Like, you know, you've just mentioned you've got number twos

[00:16:54] Sarah: yeah. the the process was good. I suppose I had this book written in my head a long, long time, and actually I had, initially, I had a different publisher for this book and, Lisa has written a lot of books. This was my first one, but I kind of felt like, so I, I had the book kinda written.

[00:17:12] Sarah: but with each chapter and with each time we went back and forth with the publisher, I felt like the book was moving farther and farther away from the book I wanted to write. And so when I started talking to Darren with Pavilion, Darren gave me a lot more license to write the book the way I really wanted to write the book.

[00:17:33] Sarah: And I suppose, you know, there, there are other publishers that maybe have kind of a, a stricter format in how the book should be, but it was really important to me that this book would be a book that could be accessible to children. And I think, you know, from your work with adults, most of the psycho, there's not, there's not a huge amount of, of psychotherapeutic materials that are age appropriate for kids.

[00:17:57] Sarah: And most of the stuff that I was [00:18:00] looking at was not digestible by children. And every time changes were being made, I said, this is getting farther and farther. Like, no kid would ever read this. And I know from working with kids for 20 years, this has to be accessible, uh, to a child.

[00:18:14] Sarah: I edit, for journals and, I've, I've written a ton of scientific materials, so I understand what the standard needs to look like, but I also understand that things need to be accessible to a child or a child's just gonna shut down and walk away.

[00:18:29] Sarah: so it's, it's, I suppose it's. It's quite nuanced. You know what the pitch, you need to know your audience.

[00:18:35] Ross: Yeah. Crikey. So, so the next one is teenagers, but there's there's three more. Is that

[00:18:42] Sarah: there's three more. Yeah. So there's teenagers, there's young adults, and then there is a parents kind of accompaniment, uh, for the kids one and the teenagers one.

[00:18:53] Sarah: Yeah. So the, the process, the process is basically kind of go through and Lisa and I are kind of turn taking, so I took lead on the kids one, and Lisa took lead on the teen one and I'll take lead on the young adult one and then, you know, so we're just sort of turn taking, but, working closely together.

[00:19:10] Sarah: Now Lisa also did an art club project in Boston for the teen one. So there's lots of kind of international artwork going on and yeah, so we've had way more artwork going on. Now, since the first art club was so, was so, successful, and so yeah. Loads more international art collaborations going on.

[00:19:32] Ross: Fabulous.

[00:19:33] Ross: There's one thing I want to wanna talk about. and it's something I notice a lot in organizations, kind of toxic positivity

[00:19:40] Sarah: Hmm. Yeah,

[00:19:41] Ross: and I wonder if that, while I'm guessing that does occur in family units too, people going, oh, just cheer up or Don't worry.

[00:19:48] Sarah: yeah,

[00:19:49] Ross: And I think it's a real problem for organizations, even if they're avoiding, say an executive level team or avoiding talking about the really difficult stuff. They're all going look over there. It's almost [00:20:00] collusion to not talk about

[00:20:02] Ross: that stuff and everyone just cheer

[00:20:03] Sarah: I know. Yeah, I agree. I think that's problematic. And I, I think it's a naive assumption that we can just stop thinking about the difficult things. and often when I'm leading a, a presentation, whether it's to parents or, organizations, I would often, use like the chocolate cake metaphor or the, the pink elephant.

[00:20:23] Sarah: And I would ask people, stop thinking about this and I'll show a big picture of a chocolate cake or a big picture of, the pink elephant and say, now I want you to stop thinking about this while it's right front and center of the room. And, this is what it is like for your child when they're worrying about being bullied at school.

[00:20:42] Sarah: Or, you know, of course we wanna get rid of this really, really difficult emotional experience, but if this is front and center in your mind or front and center of your lived experience right now, you can't just make it go away. And, and. saying to your child to just get over it. Um, the literature on thought suppression tells us this doesn't work.

[00:21:03] Sarah: And so just telling them to cheer up, get over it, move on, think positive. it's not possible. It's not helpful.

[00:21:14] Sarah: Um, yeah, it's, um, I, I think it's really unhelpful and I try to steer people away from it, but I, I try, I suppose I try to steer people away from it in a playful way. I, I try to let people know that what they're doing is unhelpful.

[00:21:31] Ross: Yeah. And, and in workplaces sometimes when using a metaphor like passengers on the

[00:21:37] Ross: bus, people will come at me at the end and say, oh, I thought it was just me.

[00:21:42] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:44] Ross: It's not mega frequent, but sometimes people go, Or they hear a colleague who they respect and admire, who's quite senior going, I'm scared, or I don't know if I can do this.

[00:21:54] Ross: Sharing some of their own thoughts. It's kind of like you can see them, look at them going, nah.

[00:21:59] Sarah: [00:22:00] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:01] Ross: And I think that's so powerful to, to sort of counter this just horrible narrative of cheer up, turn that frown upside down. It might never happen. All that really

[00:22:11] Sarah: I know. It's very unhelpful Yeah. Um, it's, it's incredibly unhelpful and I suppose that's in the culture and it's, it's a little bit slippery though. And I, I do try and draw distinctions because you see in compassion focused therapy that there is also this, um, I remember hearing actually, um, Russell Colts talking about, your resting face and if you, place a gentle smile on your face, you know, that'll send like a, a little message to yourself.

[00:22:40] Sarah: You know that you're safe and you're well. And I think actually my resting face is, is quite neutral. And, you know, people, you say to me, are you angry? And I'm like, no, I'm not angry. You know, I'm perfectly fine. That's my, I do have the resting bee faces. Turns out that's, that's actually my natural expression. Um, so like, there, there's a couple of different bodies of lit literature to draw on, but forcing yourself or trying to force yourself to act happy when you've got something difficult happening in your mind, in your body is really unhelpful. so I would always try to, to tell people that, like, as you call it, like toxic positivity.

[00:23:16] Sarah: Is really unhelpful and it's better really to model authenticity and to be honest with yourself and to be honest with your experience and that squashing your emotions is, is unhelpful. And, to model what's actually happening for you in a, in an honest and gentle way, is much more likely to, to lend itself to the more, positive long-term outcomes if we're honest.

[00:23:39] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:23:40] Ross: Yeah. And trying to model that as a facilitator with a group of adults or in one-to-one

[00:23:45] Sarah: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:46] Ross: can be super profound. The, the impact, it is just really subtle things about how we, how we present ourselves, but also thinking about careers like flight attendants.

[00:23:57] Sarah: Oh,

[00:23:58] Ross: they just have to be [00:24:00] welcome on board, welcome on board.

[00:24:01] Ross: Thank you for being an asshole. Thank you for being Yeah.

[00:24:05] Sarah: Hilarious.

[00:24:07] Ross: I always have such respect for them because you never see the best of people on a

[00:24:14] Sarah: No, I know you definitely don't. Nobody brings their best self

[00:24:19] Ross: No. And it's that emotional labor that they go through to

[00:24:23] Sarah: Oh, I know. Yeah.

[00:24:25] Ross: hats off to them.

[00:24:27] Sarah: for sure. Yeah.

[00:24:28] Ross: I, I digress yet again. But, but Sarah, I wanted to ask, is there, is there a takeaway you would offer our listeners, thinking about our listeners as adults and perhaps listeners who have children, anything, any top tip you might give them just to reflect on?

[00:24:45] Sarah: Top tip is that we often don't know how hard it is for young people. Yeah. One top tip. That's hard. You're sticking me in a box here, Ross. Um,

[00:24:59] Ross: You can go to 17 if you like.

[00:25:02] Audiogram potential - top tip

[00:25:02] Sarah: um, I think young people, I think a lot of the messaging that we give children and young people is actually a little bit arrogant. You know, I, I think we assume that they're, because they're young, that their lived experiences are easy.

[00:25:20] Sarah: And, and I think that's a little bit insulting to what's honestly happening in their lives. Just because they're younger and smaller doesn't mean that their lived experiences are easy. And so what I would like for us to do instead is to give them a chance, and the space to explore.

[00:25:43] Sarah: With honesty and with gentleness and with compassion, to check it out for themselves. And I, I would like for us to do that, you know, slowly and compassionately with them. And I would like for us to model, exploration, [00:26:00] curiosity, softness, gentleness. And I would like for us, whether we're parents, adults, um, spirit guides, what, whatever, whatever's our role in their life.

[00:26:12] Sarah: But I would like for us to model, with authenticity and courage, our own experience in, in kind and gentle ways. And let's not assume that we know what their experience is like because we don't, we don't. And, their experiences may not be easy and it takes a lot of courage to know what's come coming up for us.

[00:26:35] Sarah: And, and to face those sometimes really, really difficult things that are happening for them. And what was happening for us in our young lives when we were young, might be very, very different. in comparison to what's happening for them in their young lives now. So, so let's not assume our experience maps onto theirs.

[00:26:53] Sarah: Uh, and let's instead say I'm here for you in the background. Uh, I can't fix this for you, but I will hold your hand in the dark. I'm right here with you.

[00:27:03] Ross: Wow. Thank you. Thank you so much, Sarah. And you're reminding me, when I was reading the book, I was writing a few notes to myself and I really got this sense of respectful curiosity from you and Lisa as the authors, that you're not mapping your experience onto theirs. It's this real sensitive and and thoughtful curiosity, but so respectful to the world of the the child as well.

[00:27:29] Ross: So,

[00:27:30] Sarah: Thank you.

[00:27:31] Ross: Thank you for a thank you for articulating that so beautifully. And thank you Sarah, so much for coming on the show. it's been a privilege to talk to you and an absolute joy too, so thank you so much

[00:27:43] Sarah: Thank you so much for having me, Ross. It's been absolutely brilliant to be on with you, and I really enjoy your podcast, so I'm, I'm thrilled to be a guest.

[00:27:51] Ross: Pei supers, that's it. Part 3 [00:28:00] in the bag. Thanks so much to Sarah and Lisa for writing this book. It will be so useful to so many. Please have a think about people in your life who might appreciate this book. Point them in the direction of these episodes or directly to the book. Even better, why not buy the book for them?

[00:28:19] Ross: What an outstanding gift. So much better and thoughtful and useful than some tat that will end up at the back of a drawer for eternity. A big thanks to my producer Emma. It's great to have you on board. And Emma is continuing her final year research in psychology at Dublin City University.

[00:28:36] Ross: She's exploring the relationship between interesting work and well being. it's an anonymous online survey which takes less than 15 minutes to complete. Emma would greatly appreciate your participation in this study As it could provide some interesting insights on how we can better boost employee wellbeing. And the link to the survey is in the show notes and of course the study findings will be made accessible to you should you wish to find out more. We love to get your reviews and you can send them on the socials or even on WhatsApp. We are that modern. All the details are in the show notes.

[00:29:09] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

[00:29:28] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup.

[00:29:45] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now. [00:30:00] careers like flight attendants.

[00:30:03] Sarah: Oh,

[00:30:03] Ross: they just have to be welcome on board, welcome on board.

[00:30:07] Ross: Thank you for being an asshole. Thank you for being Yeah.

[00:30:11] Sarah: Hilarious.