First Corinthians 11, 17, 22 in the Christian Standard Bible say now in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better, but for the worse.

For to begin with, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you.

And in part, I believe it.

Indeed, it is necessary that there be factions among you so that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

When you come together, then it is not to eat the Lord's supper, for at the meal each one eats his own supper.

So one person is hungry while another gets drunk.

Don't you have homes in which to eat and drink?

Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing?

What should I say to you?

Should I praise you?

I do not praise you in this matter.

So in this Pricope, St. Paul describes how the church should behave and act or how the church.

Yeah.

Should be have an act in their communities and the church ordinances, you know, therein.

So, Professor Moreland, why do you think Paul describes the communion as something so vital for the unity of the church in this passage?

So it's incredibly important that people be physically present with one another to break bread and to be able to experience each other's faith, journey and community.

Yeah.

Yeah, I like that.

Hey guys, welcome to the Whole Church podcast.

Back with another round table discussion.

It's not been that long since the last one.

Usually we spread these out a little bit, but we, we had some vital concerns that came up in that last episode and just excited to get back into it.

So I'm Joshua Noel.

My purpose is to introduce people.

Even though I can't speak or remember how to introduce people, TJ just can't afford anyone else.

He stopped using money.

So for those who don't know, TJ Tip Swan, greatest podcaster of all time, that whole thing where Star Trek realized life's better without monetary means, just decided to stop using money ahead of time.

Currency'S lame, fiat or otherwise.

Yeah.

So we, we are here though, with some awesome guests.

Returning to the round table, Pastor Matt Thrift of a Mennonite brethren church that I forget the name of in Kansas somewhere.

I. I assume that he's the pastor of Clark Kent's parents.

Probably.

I. I wish.

Yeah, that'd be pretty awesome.

But happy to be here.

Kerner Heights Church, Newton, Kansas.

Yeah, there we go.

All right.

Also here, of course returning, is Pastor Joe Day.

He is a home church leader.

He is a regular pastor.

He is a master of the mystic arts.

He taught Dr.

Strange, built iron Man's first suit, also dabbles in Christian mysticism and wears toboggans.

The last one's probably the most important one.

Welcome back, man.

Yeah, I still think I missed one that I said earlier before we recorded a crazy list.

Joe's the only person I know who does more stuff than me, so I'm just going to that list.

Just longer each time, guys.

We are also here today.

Return guest, but I think might maybe his first time on a roundtable episode.

The one and only Professor Christopher Moreland.

He is a women in religion and other religion things professor at the University of North Carolina at Wilmington.

Devout Catholic and guy with a pretty cool haircut.

Right now.

I think it's different from last time I saw you.

It is.

Thank you.

Welcome back, man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's what.

That's who's here.

The reason we are here.

Bringing it to a little bit later.

Joe brought up something I mentioned in the last episode about the difficulty of sacrament and taking sacraments from afar.

And I was like, you know, part of what makes us need to come together as sacraments.

And I think he's going to challenge me on that idea.

So we're going to talk about that.

Not entirely sure exactly the route this conversation will take, but it's going to be a fun one.

It's going to involve sacraments and it's going to involve the need for some people to be able to do church without being in the building and challenges with that.

So that's why TJ's here.

He has all the answers.

Go ahead.

Yeah, I also came up with all the questions, so that's how.

Yeah, every question ever.

But if you're listening to this and you like what we do here, you should probably check out the Honazan Ministry podcast Network website.

The link is below.

Check that out.

See the shows that we like to like.

And then we've just been updating our merch.

It's ongoing.

I believe Josh just keeps having ideas and, like, two out of five of them are pretty good, so they get to stay on the website.

So head over there, captivate, check out our merch if you want to support us, you know, visually, publicly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Also ironic that you say two out of five.

So there was five new designs that we put up.

I think TJ liked two of them.

I loved two of them.

And they keep being taken off.

So hopefully by the time you hear this, I can convince our website people to stop taking these listings off for no Reason.

But we'll see, we'll see.

You know how that goes.

In the meantime, though, one extremely important thing we like to do here, because it's impossible to be in division when you have the kind of silliness that I like to have it.

It's what ensures unity.

Yeah, yeah, it's silliness.

Today we're going to start with another silly question.

I think it's an easier one.

Maybe.

If you were a pirate captain, what pet would you most want?

I'm gonna let TJ go first because I think he'll have an interesting answer.

Why?

What do you mean?

Just because sharks are awesome?

I mean, you're.

It's not going to obey you necessarily.

You're just gonna have a shark.

You have a weird relationship.

Pets obey you.

Pets obey people like that for the most part.

You like a highly trained shark, your pet?

Yeah, he's my shark.

All right, I'm going.

Much less cool.

I'm gonna go with iguanas.

You know, as a pirate, I'm probably spending most of my time in the Caribbean.

It'll be more humid, you know, whatever weather, easy climate control.

Have a fun little tank.

I could take it out when I want.

And like, you know, everybody has like a monkey or a period.

You know, people come into to my captain's office and it's like, just have iguanas.

That would be cool.

Of course I do.

It would be cool.

Yeah, yeah.

All right, Master Matt, What.

What pet do you want as a pirate captain?

So I, I am going to give the least creative answer, but it's really just because I stinking love dogs.

So I'm going to keep my dog.

That's all there is to it.

I mean, that's a good answer.

Plus, I'm allergic to like half of everything else, so it doesn't help.

I'm going to keep my dog with me.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, dogs are useful, actually.

Also, a ship dog would be pretty sick.

It would be fun and it would just jump in the water when you're, you know, ported.

Just cuz that'd be great.

Yeah, yeah.

Strong answer.

All right, Joe, where are we at?

What pet are you having as a Captain Pirate?

I'm going with the seal 100%.

Because you figure with pirates, half of it is making a name for yourself.

People are going to remember a pirate with a seal as a pet.

Yeah.

That's 100% accurate.

I like these aquatic pet ideas.

I don't know why I didn't think of that.

All right, Professor Morland, where Are you going cat?

Very useful on ships, making sure you don't have rats.

And they like fish and there's plenty of fish in the.

That's fair.

They would still be cats, though.

That's the only catch.

A cat is a good answer.

I did think about that.

Then I was like, well, I'm on a boat.

I might as well get a shark.

It's true.

That's true.

Also, we do have, like, three cats, and I really like one of them, so it's fair.

Yeah.

All right.

So after our last roundtable, I mentioned this or kind of alluded to this a little bit earlier.

Joe mentioned revisiting a comment that I made kind of offhanded about, like, how the sacraments require his presence.

So, Joe, just because, like, I want to make sure we're getting the idea right that we're talking about, would you mind unpacking why you feel it's important that we dig a little bit deeper into this?

Yeah.

So I, I, watching the, the tone of the conversation last time, I very nearly commented, but as I wanted to, to break the meta and not completely and totally derail the conversation that time.

So the, the pushback, and not in, not, not really pushback, but an invitation to think deeply about the concept of presence sits at the level of.

When we say that we need to be present, what exactly do we mean by that?

And what exactly are we implying when we say that there needs to be a physical embodiment of the gathering of the saints in order for it to qualify, in order for it to be impactful or even be correct, depending on what level of adherence you're looking at, what level of severity, language you're going to use, or different things like that, all with the idea that we're talking about something that has 52 different flavors to it.

And by that I mean there are countless different denominations, there are countless different practices, there are countless different opinions and perspectives on this matter.

And I am not by any stretch of the imagination trying to step forward and say, thus saith the Lord, this is the way.

But I push back at the level of having.

Having cut my teeth in the world of digital ministry, I've seen and experienced some things that have caused me to revisit this idea of the sacraments, with the exception of one.

And so looking at all of the classical sacraments, some would, would include baptism.

I've never experienced baptism from afar, so it's very hard for me to wrap my mind around that one.

Like, I, I would, I would love, love to engage in a conversation with somebody who has legitimately experienced that from afar.

Because I would be fascinated to have that, to have that conversation.

Can't promise I would change my mind.

But that's where I'm like, ah, I, I feel like that's, I feel like we're pushing the, we're pushing the idea now at that, at that point.

But if, if I may, just to set the table from the perspective that I'm, that, that I'm coming from, there's three different version or there's three different levels of digital ministry.

There's the level that I would go as far as to say maybe 90, 90 plus percent of churches sit at and that's goods and services.

You throw up a live stream, you go live on Facebook, you have an alternative for people who can't make it into the church.

But the idea is get to the church, that sort of thing.

There's no real engagement, there's no real community online.

It's just a matter of an alternative way of looking at the service.

No shade, just an alternative means that's goods and services.

Then you have the evangelism model.

A lot of megachurches set at this level where you are all of the pomp, all of the circumstance, all of the polish and it's the, the idea is you are trying to draw people in and using it as an evangelical tool.

That's the, that, that's the second level level of it.

And then there's actual digital church, then there's actual online church where there is, there are outlets and forms to have community and engagement with other people.

That's, that's what I'm talking about pretty exclusively when I'm talking about the things that I'm talking about regarding a remote, remote sacrament.

We can get into specific examples.

I want to be, I want to honor, honor the time and not sit here and go on a 10 minute diatribe.

But it, it's the, the, the idea being that if there's actual community, if there's actual engagement with the saints, if it's actually like packaged in a way just different from flesh and blood being in person, at what point are we more prioritizing the physical space than we are the spiritual implication of the practice itself.

Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, I like that.

I do want to get into what you mentioned early on, what we mean by presence.

I'm going to do a little backtracking here though.

So before doing this episode I reached out to Father Jonathan, friend of the show Orthodox Priest, as well as a few different of our former you know, guests of the show who are Catholics or Orthodox, you know, those higher liturgical who have more of a history with some of this.

Because I think it's interesting, it's important to have that perspective.

We're going to talk about sacraments or presence.

Former guest.

It's been a while since we had him, and he almost made it today, but some things came up.

Joe Mancusco, he is a Catholic believer, runs a couple podcasts and different digital ministry stuff, whatever.

He also mentioned that the theology of presence is really important to him.

So I think that's kind of what he would have brought to this table.

So this idea of presence, and I think that's the center of why we do sacraments, and it's the center of what this conversation is going to be about and what we mean by digital church as opposed to, you know, that evangelical model or, you know, just kind of putting stuff out there, like what Joe was talking about.

But the church has had a history, you know, before digital means where there were still times where people couldn't make it to the physical building.

We have this theology of sacrament, particularly the Catholic Church has a theology even that as the sacraments are blessed and as you take them, that they truly kind of transfigure.

I don't have my mind.

I understand some basics of that idea, but I don't want to misrepresent it.

But if we're talking about the blessing of the elements having to be done by the priest, if we're talking about baptism, there are a lot of things that is difficult to wrap our mind around when we talk about, like doing the sacraments remotely.

So I do want to give Professor Moreland a second to kind of maybe introduce yourself a little bit more and unpack.

From a Catholic perspective, where would you even want to start?

When we talk about what does it mean to be present?

And how could remote stuff like this even be possible?

If it is, Absolutely.

So.

I am an Alumni of UNCW's Bachelor Program, UNCW's Master Program in History, and I did some doctoral work out in the Graduate Theological Union at UC Berkeley.

Berkeley.

I currently serve as an academic advisor at uncw.

I do teach on the side in the Department of Philosophy and Religion.

And, you know, we know each other through our dear friend Sister Rose, and she got me hooked up with this podcast.

It's been really.

It's been a really great experience.

So sacraments have to have form and they have to have matter.

So because of that, sacrament cannot be done remotely.

So if you Want the long and short answer?

What does the Catholic Church think about remote sacraments?

The answer is a big no.

And I do wish Father Jonathan had been here today, and I don't want to put words in his mouth.

I think that one slight difference between the Catholic and the Orthodox perspective is that the Orthodox, I believe, from what I know from one of my friends who's an Orthodox priest, can do confession over the telephone or zoom.

But I would want to hear that straight from them.

But I know that in Catholicism, no sacraments can be done remotely.

Yeah.

The closest I think the Catholic Church has ever been was Covid baptisms with, like, the holy water gun.

That's about as remote as it gets.

I didn't hear about the holy water gun.

That's funny.

But.

So, Professor Moyland, I'm sure since the Catholic Church has been around for a long time that there's answers to this.

What happens when people can't physically get to the church building?

How do they participate in the sacrament cell?

So for communion, you can do spiritual communion.

This has happened a lot during times of illness, plague, and it was used a lot during the Nazi and communist persecutions.

So you.

You pray along with the Mass and you make an act of spiritual communion.

It is not a substitute for going to communion.

And, of course, there is this idea that, you know, God is merciful and just.

And so obviously, your expectations of when you're next going to get communion are a little different from being struck down with a cold in bed and being imprisoned in a Soviet Gulag.

You know, one is like, okay, let's say within another week or so, you can go get communion.

But for someone like, let's say, Walter Cizek, who was put in the Gulag, it might be three years.

I don't think I'm out of bounds in saying that there would be grace there and there would be understanding if, you know, Father Walter Cizek couldn't have gotten communion a week after making spiritual communion because the circumstances he was under.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

So before we move on, Pastor Matt, did you have anything you want to add to what's been said so far?

Yeah, yeah.

Just quickly.

I mean, obviously I'm coming from more of a Protestant conversation when it comes to communion, and there's gonna be a lot of things that.

That probably differentiate those two.

But with that being said, Yeah, I mean, I think in general, when it comes to the Lord's Supper, to communion, when it comes to Protestant settings, there's so much conversation.

I actually got to preach on this on Sunday.

But so much conversation around even what is the practice of communion in the first place.

When you look at historically church wise, I think a lot of our churches, and I don't mean this, I'm just simply stating my fact, not so much an attack against any other thoughts or anything, but coming from a fairly normal church background, non denominational background, communion is one of the things that I think is so deeply misunderstood in the first place in a lot of our churches.

I think that my take on communion is probably different from, from a lot of us as we have this conversation.

But I mean, I look at it as something that, as I preached on Sunday morning.

When you look at the way that Paul describes communion, I don't necessarily think it's meant to be a traditional practice that we take part of exclusionarily within the walls of church.

I mean, looking at the early church, they were meeting in houses.

It was originally ordained for people to be doing in house church settings.

So it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense from that being my background to keep it within the four walls of the church as the only approved setting for it.

So I kind of come from that background.

I also come from the belief that communion in general, and this will probably differ some, but communion in general isn't strictly something to be done once a month or whatever else.

I read it in scripture as something that we do every time we eat and bring, every time we eat and drink the common elements that were common at that point in time.

So I have a very different perspective on communion.

But we can get into that a little bit later as we go on.

But yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I don't want to hold us up and we're going to get to some of my ideas a little bit later probably in the roundup.

But, but for me it does depend on the sacrament.

Right.

Like holy orders.

I think I can be a little loose on personally, you know, marriage.

I don't think marriage can be done remotely.

I think both parties should probably be present, you know, baptism.

I still, you know, that water gun idea is interesting.

You know, I'm unsure.

I don't see a way to do that remotely.

It's kind of confusing communion to me.

The interesting thing about this, and I kind of wish he would have been here, but we had.

Why can't I remember his name?

The Anglican chaplain.

T.J. do you remember?

Why am I struggling?

I barely remember my name.

Sometimes, man, I want to feel terrible later because like this guy's cool.

Anyway, we had an Anglican chaplain on the show.

Once he did talk about, when he's, as a chaplain, taking the elements from the church to people who needed in the hospital in different areas like that.

And the reason that piques my interest when we're talking about like the theology of presence, we're going to dig into deeper a little bit later is I think, something about communion.

It is important that we are eating from the same loaf.

We're drinking from the same cup.

Maybe not literally the same cup each time, but I like this idea of if people do have to do it remotely, we're taking the same bread that we're taking in our church to them somehow or the same wine.

I think there is something there and maybe that's just me being a little too overly spiritualizing, the physical, I don't know.

But I still think there's something about the theology of presence to me that I haven't fully thought out.

Here I'm still wrestling with.

I want to say his name was Steve.

Yeah, Steve Linklos.

Thank you.

Do you mind if I jump in real quick?

Yes, Joe.

So when I was going through the master's program that I was a part of on spiritual formation, one of the things that was in the coursework was go to a.

Go.

Go to a worship service that you are not that, that you are not used to, that you are not.

Not accustomed to.

That's outside of your tradition.

And so being in an area that is very heavily Catholic, I decided to go to, to go to a Mass.

And I'd had a.

A really great conversation with the priest afterwards, was very honest with him that I'm.

I'm not a Catholic, but I, you know, I am here and explain to him why I'm here and all of that kind of stuff.

And we had a great conversation.

Conversation.

And that led me down the road of.

Since, since having done that, having a lot of appreciation for my Catholic brothers and sisters.

And I live right down the road from a Catholic church and I have great relationship with the priest of that, of that church as, as well.

And, and I have to say, you know, out of respect for the tradition, I don't, I don't take.

Obviously don't take communion in that, in that setting, but there is a piece of it that sings to my soul when I see folks taking from the same cup and taking from the same bread.

That's why I was very.

I wanted to be very clear of saying that there I, I do not like, like there, there are some bridges like, like Pastor Matt said, there are some bridges that I don't think we're going to be able to, to cross with some of us coming from the Protestant tradition, others coming from the Catholic tradition, and even between Pastor Matt and I coming from two different aspects of the Protestant tradition, maybe, maybe would find things that we don't necessarily see eye to eye on.

But there is something beautiful when you are among a physical body of believers taking in the elements.

I would say the same thing in a Protestant tradition, though.

I do think I, I have my opinions on the ritualized cup of juice and the little gimmick cracker and all that and all that jazz.

I, whatever, but, but so, so I think that's a little like, ah, like I, I, I really wish that if we were going to do this in person that we would just like do it, you know, you know, what do the tradition.

But I, I do just want to as, as the voice who brought this forward and brought the subject forward.

Yes, I stand by what I said, what I say about digital ministry and, and, and digital church, but it is in no way, shape or form trying to devalue the practice.

In person, though, I do think in person we lose a little bit of something when we say, okay, once a month, you know, the first Sunday of every, of every month, we're gonna do, we're, we're gonna do communion and you know, like by ritual, that that's exactly what we're gonna do the first Sunday of every of every month.

Like, I, I'm, I, I don't necessarily agree with that.

But again, though, I don't think it's a matter of a clear cut, yes or no perspective coming from that.

Like, like you said, like, like you said, there's, there's, it's, it's a hard no from, from the Catholic tradition.

So I'm not trying to put words there.

I'm saying specifically from the Protestant tradition.

So before we get too deep into it, we did want to cover, you know, like, go for everybody and just briefly describe what the sacraments mean to you, how you distinguish the sacraments from the other ordinances, how you view the theology of presence with the sacraments, and how the elements of each sacrament are important to you.

If they are.

We're going to start with Professor Moreland because he's Catholic.

Yeah.

So sacraments, as I mentioned before, have to have physical presence.

They have to have form and matter.

They're outward, they're a visible sign, and the sign must have been given or instituted by our Lord, and the sacrament must give grace.

Yeah, I do put a major emphasis on in my personal perspectives, which I think are in line with the characters, is that form of matter is super important.

The way that you do things with the proper.

With the proper elements is incredibly important.

Yeah.

So I think that I am not comfortable when people try to play fast and loose with sacraments, like substituting, like, Creator, Redeemer and Liberator for, like, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, or messing with wine in place of, you know, putting grape juice or something else in place of wine or, you know, messing around with the formula of the Eucharistic, the host, the bread.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

Which is fair because, you know, transubstantiation is kind of a big deal.

So.

Cool.

Matt, do you want to go next?

Yeah, for sure.

So, yeah, again, with respect to the fact that we're different, I would just say we don't.

We don't, technically speaking, celebrate any sacrament in the sense that the word sacrament means imparting grace.

There's no aspect in which, outside of just salvation being something through just the free gift of grace, that's kind of the side we lay on.

Ordinances, on the other hand, as practices of the church, things that we actually do, we do celebrate communion, obviously, marriage, obviously, baptism, all of those things as well, Just with the distinction that baptism is not a saving ordinance.

It's not technically a sacrament in the sense that it imparts grace.

Communion in the same setting.

We do not believe that it imparts grace or anything along those.

And I will say just very quickly, I worked in Utah for five years, and so I'm very, very, very deeply, well acquainted, fortunately or unfortunately, with LDS theology.

I have a lot of that in the background as well, and that really did kind of experiencing an LDS version.

Growing up in Maryland around Catholic Church, I had some idea, but being out there kind of helped form my belief and in some ways, our church's belief around the differentiation between sacrament and ordinance, just in the way that I would describe it.

All right, Joe?

Yeah, I mean, I would.

I would copy and paste, you know, the.

The major themes of.

Of what Matt said as far as far as grace goes specifically.

But I.

But with the added idea that these.

These ordinances that we are given, whether they are in person or they are remote, need to be taken with the utmost importance.

That's, again, that's why I say what I say about having a lot of respect for the way that my Catholic brothers and sisters, or Orthodox brothers and sisters handle communion, because there is a reverence to it.

The.

The bells, the whistles, the eyes, the t's the, the details, all of that sort of stuff.

Yeah, no, I can't say, can't say as though we're on the same page as far as far as that goes.

But none of that takes away from the, the level of significance that is given to the practice.

And I think sometimes coming from the Protestant tradition, and I would say this pretty universally because for those of you that don't, that don't know that, that this is your first time hearing me on the whole church, I, I, I fancy the title inter denominational pastor because I've, I've had a lot of experience and a lot of different, different situations in a lot of different contexts.

So I' mutt when it comes to, when, when it comes to the, the pastorate.

And I would say in a lot of situations, in a lot of contexts, the Protestant tradition does kind of water down the significance of the practice of communion.

And really, I would go, I would go out from there.

I wouldn't like.

Yes, I understand a lot of the conversation that we're having.

We keep coming back to the topic of communion because generally that's probably where we're going to see a lot of the most suitable differences or opinions or it's the most common or whatever the case may be.

But I could very easily kind of radiate outward from the point of communion and say some of the same things about some of the other traditions that we have.

Right.

So, Josh, sacramentally, where do you lie?

Yeah, I think it's all important.

So there's that fun meme of, like, Lutherans and Anglicans where, like, there's two guys and they ask, are you Protestant or Catholic?

And one of them says Protestant and the other one says Catholic.

Yeah, I found myself comfortably there before I realized I wanted to become Lutheran.

I just, for me, it's more doing this podcast and meeting people realizing, man, I am not one of the smarter people in the church.

I might be average, you know.

You know, maybe.

And it just kind of makes me realize throughout the history and that's like what CS Lewis talks about when he talks about, like, this, you know, our modern superior superiority complex of like, oh, we're smarter now than they used to be.

And I'm like, I just don't, I don't believe that.

I don't believe I'm smarter than Augustine or Jerome.

Probably smarter than Thomas.

Probably smarter than Thomas.

Aquan, he was wrong.

Yeah, but that's because we, we have issues with him specifically.

It's fine.

But, you know, that's why, like, to me, Even though I don't find church tradition authoritative, I feel foolish to counter, to contradict it.

You know, like, I think for the most part, there have been much smarter people than me that kept falling in line with that.

People who are much closer to God who kept falling in line.

And that's why the Catholic Church is what the Catholic Church is.

And that's where, like, I don't take a lot of this stuff lightly.

I do think with the sacraments, there is some general.

Like, I don't think it is salvific necessarily, but I think that it is a way of genuinely participating in grace, receiving grace.

Ironically, I get some of this from the Pentecostal Church.

Growing up, I saw anointing of sick and people healed.

And it is hard for me to see someone who had cancer be healed and say there wasn't some kind of participation of grace there.

There was.

You know what I mean?

Like, I like, it's hard for me to deny that.

And I've seen those prayers happen over the phone, and that's where some of this gets kind of weird for me.

So, yeah, for me, sacraments are something where you are receiving of grace, you are partaking of grace.

So I will go like anointing of the sick.

Yeah, the Eucharist.

I am going to agree with the Church of the Air.

That's why I think it's important that we try to make it the same bread and same wine in some way, if we can.

That we're all communion is, you know, we are in communion with one another and with God.

So it needs to be the same elements blessed.

I think it's important for the wine to be bitter.

It's supposed to represent blood.

I hate when I go to a church and you have sweet wine.

That's what are you doing?

But I don't think any of the stuff is salvific.

For me, I wouldn't say matrimony.

I didn't feel like I received some kind of grace.

It was the greatest moment of my life.

I understand why it's symbolic of God.

I think matrimony more of an ordinance than a sacrament properly.

I got a nitpick all the way through.

But I definitely think baptism, confirmation, anointing of the sick.

Well, maybe not confirmation.

Baptism, Eucharist, anointing of the sick.

I'm iffy on confirmation, confession.

I definitely.

The Bible straight up tells us to confess our sins one to another.

Yeah, you know, I'm there with that.

TJ, what about you?

Yeah, so like the last 40 seconds of what you said is pretty much how I live because I am still Pentecostal.

But like you said, growing up, to me, the sacraments are communion, baptism, foot washing, because I'm Pentecostal, you know?

But it is hard for me to look at the tradition of the Catholic Church knowingly and say, like, there's no.

There's nothing there.

Obviously there's something there.

Just because my church does not put that much weight in tradition does not mean that I don't fully respect the Catholic tradition of communion.

For us, it's different.

We'll do the little cups and the.

And the cardboard wafer.

I kind of like the cardboard wafer, but only when we have to.

Like, we have also done the wine and the bread.

Like, it's just kind of whatever we can afford to do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, for me, since I don't think it's salvific, I don't have an issue when people do it differently necessarily.

But I will say, the time that I felt like I've received the most grace during Communion, going to Pastor Will's church, Lutheran Church, right there in Chapel Hill.

These sweet old ladies make the bread, and we're all literally sharing the same loaf that someone in the church made.

And, like, something about that.

I don't know if I felt closer to God and to one another in the church than in that moment being able to take communion.

Well, that's just me, but I agree with that.

But for me, that's, like, very low sacramental.

Get baptized, take communion.

You know, communion for us is pretty rare.

It's nowhere near the same level as any of the even medium liturgical churches, so.

And marriage, to me, it just never, like, occurred to me.

Yeah, yeah, that's fair.

Definitely can't.

That one.

I still.

I will hold hard.

The whole episode cannot be done remote.

That's true.

Or should not be done remote.

Maybe it can.

It shouldn't.

Yeah, that's like the movie Flubber.

They get married remote.

It's a sham.

Sham marriage.

I forgot about that.

So true.

So true.

We're calling that specific film out Disney.

Just real quick.

Just want to hear everybody's just like, no context.

What is the weirdest version of this that we've encountered?

So you know whether.

If you've watched the golden gemstones, you know, wave pool baptisms, potato chips for communion.

We already mentioned the water gun for baptism.

What's everyone's weirdest encounter with this?

And you can give it a 0 to 10 rating if you want.

Just for kicks and giggles.

Matt, you Want to go first for that one?

Yeah, I got you.

I just a couple weeks ago witnessed a virtual baptism in.

Yeah, yeah.

I. I still don't know how I feel about it, but I saw it.

It was on.

Goodness.

What's the game you get dropped out of an airplane?

Helicopter situation?

Video game.

Just one of them.

Oh, my God.

Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely true.

The big one.

Fortnite.

Fortnite or what was it?

Yeah, Fortnite baptism.

Weirdest thing I've seen.

So I put that at like a 9 or a 10, not quite sure.

And then I did witness Twinkies and Mountain Dew for communion one time and that's a whole nother story.

And I'll give that one like a nine as well.

I'm sorry, Christopher.

I know, I'm sorry.

All right, move on.

Yeah, yeah.

Matt values creativity, Joe.

Just, just no context.

I'll be, I'll be the heat seeking missile here and, and say that I facilitated communion that involved Gatorade and Doritos.

So there's that again.

Sorry.

I'll go next.

I feel like we need to let Christopher get as much build up as he can with this because we know he's going to give something to 0 out of 10.

We just don't know what.

I think.

See, the weirdest ones I heard of.

I've.

Man, this is challenging.

I had a really good one.

Oh, you know what?

I'm gonna go with the baptism one too.

From Animal Crossing.

No, not baptism.

It was Eucharist.

They did a Eucharist setting and an Animal crossing place during COVID I kind of want to give it a 6 out of 10 because, you know, I really appreciate people's desire to participate in the sacraments and missing one another.

But that's not communion.

But, but I, you know, I appreciate the desire.

Yeah, yeah.

For me, it was actually something on the show we've been through a few weeks ago, we found out about a.

Where they.

So they do Latin mass on VR chat and they're furries.

They do their furry avatar Latin Mass.

And I just assuming Eucharist.

Yeah, assume the Eucharist.

Yeah, they did furry mass.

Eucharist.

Yeah, yeah.

For context.

Because this one is important with a little bit of context.

This was something we heard of due to some autism research.

So I don't want to like, I don't want to bash it or love it or anything that.

Because, you know, that is a hand grenade.

I don't want to fall on Chris, give us what is getting your 0 out of 10 is it.

Everything we just said, pretty much.

But I'll give you my own two personal experiences.

One, I really just didn't mind as much because it's Episcopalian.

I mean, like, they do their thing, we do our thing.

It's not something we would do.

But there's an Episcopalian summer camp that one of my friends who's an ordained minister did, and they did a pool chorus, meaning that they were doing the Eucharist in the swimming pool.

Okay.

At least, you know, form and matter was there.

I guess maybe people, you know, people were not dressed to the nines or anything, you know, but at least, if I remember correctly, the bread and wine was still on the side of the pool, and I kind of float here or something because that went.

Not so sure how I feel about that.

I would definitely say that something that did extremely upset me and I was very unhappy about a lot of other people weren't happy about, was there was a Jesuit community that tried to be cute and tried to mess with the Eucharist by making it at home and adding not just flour and water, but adding honey and lemon zest to it.

And from our theology and from canon law, that means that that Eucharist was not valid.

So everyone, whether they wanted and not everyone, knew that the Eucharist had been tampered with.

But I see that is, like, incredibly grave because people who had no idea thought that they were receiving the sacrament, and they weren't.

So I think that woe to the person that did that and did it.

And the other thing is the person did it knowingly and was confronted about it and continued to do that until the bishop got involved.

That's crazy.

That just kept going.

Yeah.

It's definitely different when it's against your own traditions, theology, and people don't know what's happening.

I feel like that's definitely.

To me, it's got to be worse than the knowingly doing any of the other things.

Do you have to say?

I did a wedding in a pool one time, and I don't know that I count that again in the Sacramento conversation, but I did in the shallow end of a pool.

Their backyard in St. George, Utah, they didn't have a yard.

It was just a pool.

And so they said, hey, we're going to stand right there.

I said, cool.

I guess I need swim trucks.

Yeah.

By the end of this, Chris is going to block another hour of his week out to pray for our salvation.

That would be nice.

That would be very nice.

But we have finally made it to what we like to call the roundtable roundup.

And I think you've all done this before.

I'm still going to go over it for clarity's sake.

But we have four questions for everybody to choose from today.

You have to choose one question and answer.

No one's allowed to respond or follow up on your statement until after the roundup is complete.

So hold it in.

Just wait.

There will be time.

You do have to repeat the question you're answering.

For those listening who forgot what you're.

Answering, yes, you do have.

Don't have the outline in front of them.

Repeat the question and we might all pick the same question to answer.

That's fine.

If everyone just really wants answer A, we'll answer A a bunch of times.

We're okay with that.

So I'm gonna read them off and then we're gonna start our A question is how might reflecting on the history of the role of the acolyte challenge or inform our thinking about how churches practicing sacraments remotely today?

Our B question is does it matter what elements we use in Eucharist and do they need to be blessed by a priest in person before partaking?

C is if sacraments inherently involve embodied participation with God and eternity, each other, can taking them remotely fully achieve their intended spiritual purpose?

And D is how might remote sacraments reshape our theology of presence and our connection to Christ's incarnation?

So I'm not sure who the fastest thinker is, but I do have to choose somebody to go first and I think I'm gonna go with Joe.

Joe, what question are you going to answer for us today?

I'm going to go with, with.

With C. And if, if sacraments are inherently, if they inherently involved embodied participation with God and each other, can taking them remotely fully achieve their intended spiritual purpose?

I would say yes, they can.

I am I coming coming from the tradition of and, and I guess the school thought of the mystics and of the now and not yet kingdom and like that whole school of thought.

One of the things that I try very hard to help people to understand is the God is God in the everything.

That the idea that the God that we, the God that we serve and love and are in relationship with transcends the limitations that we put on various religious aspects.

And when there is a community and I would define that like maybe more broadly than even some of my Protestant brothers and sisters, that that vehicle for the, the.

The partaking of the sacraments is a, that, that that is what we are seeing played out in the Scriptures, that this is Something that can be taken and in different settings, in different situations, be applied outside of one large physical group setting.

And so when we are talking about the spiritual implications of it, then.

Then I would say that that is fulfilled by engaging in this ancient practice, that sim that symbolizes the act of Jesus.

All right, cool.

That was Joe's shortest answer to a question ever.

We kept track, but we're gonna go with Matt next.

Matt, do you know which question you're gonna answer for us today?

Yeah, yeah.

I've got B.

Does it matter what the elements are made of?

I know there's a slightly different wording on that, but that's what I'm taking on.

Yeah.

So does it matter what elements we use in Eucharist?

And do they need to be blessed by a priest in person before partaking?

Sure, yeah.

Thank you.

Obviously depends on your church background, because I'm sure many others would have different opinions.

But.

And I respect.

But my perspective.

No, does not matter what the elements are.

So much so is my honest perspective based in the fact that I look at, again, the Scripture being my guiding point for it.

Scripturally speaking, you're looking at a meal where they were eating bread and drinking wine, the two most common things to be eaten and drank at that point in time.

That it's just as simple as it was.

I don't see those two elements as particularly.

I think they're great.

I think there's beautiful tradition in it, but particularly exclusionary to others, being that the point trying to get across from Jesus, I believe, pretty firmly was, as you are eating your ordinary everyday food, please remember that this is a thing that has been given for you, that my grace is sufficient for all of these things.

So to me, no.

And then when it comes to, does it need to be blessed?

I.

Not in the traditional sense of praying over for it to be blessed.

No, I do not see it that way.

However, within the sense of you're in church taking communion.

I pray over the communion, pray for the people as they're taking it.

So I guess the dichotomy is a little different.

But, no, I don't see it as blessed in the same way.

I've taken Mass before, and I know it's quite different.

So it is a bit different.

So, Professor Moreland, which question would you like to answer for us today?

Like to answer B, but in a sort of way that piggybacks off what the.

What we heard previously in.

From the Catholic perspective, the elements must be there.

The form and matter must be there.

An approved ritual Must be.

Must be done.

The approved sacrament must be done without any additions or subtractions, and it must be done by a priest.

However, you can distribute communion as a layperson to those who are sick or who are homebound.

You can also, and you can even do this for what they call viaticum, which is final communion, sort of a parallel to this.

Also, I do want to note that in our tradition, you can do as a layperson, emergency baptisms.

It's the only sacrament a layperson's allowed to do.

Oh, yeah.

Cool.

All right, so I'll go with D, which is how my remote sacraments reshape our theology of presence and our connection to Christ's incarnation.

For me, the, you know, like, we do play fast and loose with sacraments.

That's just the kind of thing that we do.

Pentecostal, but the remoteness of it is not necessarily exclusionary to the grace of it.

For.

For us, I do believe that if someone is ill or unable to travel, that taking the remote sacraments is perfectly reasonable as long as you are in community with the church when it happens.

So we make, you know, we can make a great effort to make that happen again.

Except for baptism, that's kind of hard.

You might just have to wait to get baptized if you are too ill to be baptized traditionally.

But if we got to get it done, we'll get it done.

I promise you that.

And that.

I'm not sure if that's a Pentecostal thing.

That might just be a Southern thing.

But we will make it happen somehow.

I absolutely promise.

I do not think the theology of the Presence is particularly relevant for us just because we do tend to believe that God is everywhere, you know, in our actions.

God is blessing our actions.

We're taking the sacrament, his name.

There's at least three of us, you know, that's the Presence.

So remote.

Not strictly.

Not necessarily.

But I do think that connection, you know, gathered in one place could be online.

You know, I'm not God.

I don't know all the answers.

I hope you would count it.

I was gonna answer A, because nobody else did, and I was already leaning towards A anyway.

How might reflecting on the history of the role of acolyte challenge or inform our thinking about churches practicing sacraments remotely today?

What I've read about the history of the accolade, which I could be mistaken, they're like helpers.

So they help prepare the sacraments with the deacons, especially.

Originally, that was kind of the role.

And part of that included making sure the wine was buried, making sure the bread was prepared, making sure the candles were brought to the altar and that these things also for those who weren't able to physically go to the church, buildings were prepared like a section was portioned out for those who weren't able to make it.

So I think leaning on tradition and history and seeing roles like this and how the church is constantly being creative and how do we get this to people, I think is important.

Going back to stuff we talked about earlier, you know, I think it's important that we do have online churches that aren't just like evangelical tools or just throwing up our sermons.

And I think part of the role of the church is for the community.

So I, I take issue with people being like, oh, I'm part of the Hillsong Church in Australia.

I'm like, no you're not man.

That is not your community.

I want us to have the Rock Hill have an active online church that I can be a participant in and in.

If we are able to make something like that happen.

I can easily see where, yeah, I think the priest is still blessing the sacraments and people like acolytes or whatever are able to bring them to people.

So we are participating in the same bread and the same wine remotely.

Yeah, it'll take work but I think there are ways to do this if we're just a little bit more creative.

And I think if we look at the tradition of the church, we've been pretty good at being creative in the past.

I don't think it's time to stop now.

Yeah, and I don't want to like put any ideas in any corporations heads but doordash and communion maybe, you know.

No, I do think that's a bad idea.

So does anyone have anything to add follow ups or remarks to anyone's roundup?

Answer?

I want to add when we talk about presence and all of this.

Just.

For context, I mentioned this in our last roundtable, but my grandfather, the last few years of his life desperately wished he could get to church and he just couldn't leave his house.

And the thing that was important wasn't necessarily that he was able to take the Lord's supper or that he was able to be baptized again.

He was already baptized.

Right.

The thing that was important was that the church was coming to him.

And when we talk about remote church, if we're not including in the conversation going to people, I'm not sure that that's church.

So I think that's something that we really need to sit in.

It's like, are we trying at least to go to where people are.

And I do like to me that part of the theology of presence is important, not just in our sacraments, but in how what we mean when we say church in the first place.

And yeah, I know that's a big can of worms, and I'm sorry, I'll.

Go ahead and jump on that can of worms with somebody.

Somebody would take the bait.

Come on, come on.

You knew when you were saying that that you were baiting me.

Okay, so this kind of falls in line with D, but I am going to color outside the lines.

So sorry, ahead of time.

I want to be clear, as the guy who's been talking the most about remote church, digital church, the whole nine yards.

I like the analogy that you used, Josh, of I'm a part of Hillsong in Australia.

Are you, Are you like.

And I'm not, I'm not trying, whatever.

Like, it's a, it's an event.

It's an evangelism tool.

And for anybody who has come to Christ by way of a church's evangelism tool like that, as long as it was the starting point, line one, verse one of a much larger story, then yes, and amen.

Okay, great.

But there is a monumental difference between experiencing an event, an evangelical tool, or experiencing and taking in a sermon and a worship set from X church, wherever that has no, like, maybe they threw in the comments section.

Hey, glad you're with us today.

That's not engagement, that's not community.

That's somebody who knew that they needed to throw something in the comment section.

And I, and, and I, I, I care very deeply about this because on the other side of that is the opportunity for remote community.

And, and I, and I defend this very hard because of what, because of the lives that I have seen changed through remote connectivity.

People who really legitimately do not have a source of community around them, a church where they can call their home, a place to be able to come together with the saints in worship, but they have found honest to goodness in the online space, and a place where they can fully embrace the worship of God among other believers.

I cannot square every circle, I cannot cross every bridge for every person who thinks differently about the collection of the saints, about what a worship service should look like and all of those things.

And I'm not here to necessarily change anybody's mind in regards to that, but if we take seriously the idea of remote sacraments, I think it opens the door to a larger conversation about reshaping how we view the transcendence of God.

God in the.

Everything that we can in fact, reach beyond these, the.

The structure of that time in that place, to the heart of the matter.

Not foregoing the whole thing, not throwing the entire book out, but.

But kind of like what Pastor Matt said about looking at it from the point of view of these were the most reachable elements of that time, but also going a step further from let's what.

What are we doing as far as going to people?

Well, I think you can go to a person exactly where they're at in front of this camera, in front of this microphone, and still be in community with that person.

And I think when we widen our horizons a bit and take a look at that deeper context of what it means to be in the presence of God and what it means to be in community with others, then in an entirely different chapter can be.

Can be written not just in what's available or what opportunities you have to be able to connect with other people, but also the depths of the reality of the presence and promise and faithfulness of God, to see past the limitations on our own situation and circumstance.

And I'll use a particular example for this to drive it home.

And then I'll get off my soapbox for a second.

Okay, Josh of all people.

TJ2.

But Josh, of all, all people will be able to say yes, yes, and amen to this, and I'll speak about myself very, very openly and be perfectly fine with it.

I was a jerk when we first met.

I was hard to be around.

I had a lot of trauma regarding the church.

I had a lot of trauma in regards to cooperating with the saints because of my own church hurt and experiences that I carried into it.

And so I was very hard to cooperate with if it weren't for digital community and digital church.

I'm not sure that you get the same person who's sitting here now.

Sure, I can still be full of.

Of vinegar.

I can still be full of passion.

I still get animated.

I care deeply about the things that I care deeply about and all of those kinds of things.

But ultimately, at the end of the day, I can also look across the table at whoever is sitting across the table.

And we could be so far off base that we're not even playing the same game.

We're not even in the same state and say awesome blessings to you because you are still connecting with God just in a different way.

Yeah, I'm a. I want to.

I agree with most of everything that Joe said.

I'm going to push back on something that he said, but he was quoting Matt.

So I'm going to give Matt the chance to respond to that.

Then I have a question for Chris, and then I'm going to text TJ that we're going to skip 10, because I think we've already entered that on the outline.

And people listening are like, huh?

And it's fine.

So one of the things that Joe said.

So I agree with almost everything.

I don't think Joe was that bad when we first met.

But, yeah, I've seen online ministry work on him.

I've seen it work with me.

TJ and I are part of theology beer camp.

And man, the amount of people who go to these events who, like, man, they just had so much hurt.

They don't want to step foot in a church anymore, but they still want to be part of a faith community.

And, like, thank God for these online communities.

Like, I genuinely think there's a lot of good.

Like, I think there is grace in some of this.

There we go.

I'm just gonna just drop that there.

But both of you guys mentioned the Eucharist and talking about the elements that were there at the time.

They were there because it was Passover.

Like, this wasn't like, oh, this just because it's the most accessible stuff.

We're gonna use this.

It was because it's Passover.

It was an important religious elements that they are continuing on to a different sacrament, going from Judaism into Christianity.

So I don't think it was bread and wine, because this is the most available stuff at the time.

I think it's because they were in a religious moment in a particular space and taking.

And this is why I think it's important that the wine is bitter.

We are pooling from Passover.

And to just change it into something completely different to me, is not honoring of the origins, which, hey, sometimes we can't.

I get it.

But I don't think it's right to say that it's just the most available things.

Although Thomas Aquinas seemed to have different opinions, but he also thought we should only be able to use wheat bread exclusively.

And that's probably because he didn't realize that there's lots of places in the world that don't use wheat.

And Thomas Aquinas is not my favorite.

So, Matt, you want to respond to some of that, since I am pushing on your idea and maybe you're like, man, this guy sucks.

No, no, you're all good, man.

It's whole church.

I'm good.

I'm good.

No, yeah.

I would say unequivocally, I do think there's drastic importance in the fact that it is happening during Passover.

I don't think that's something we should miss.

I think that is even down to, as Luke notes, which cup Jesus is using I think is a drastically important fact when it comes to how we ought to view communion.

I completely agree with that.

Now, with that being said, there are multiple other items at the table during a Passover dinner that are far more exclusionary, far more difficult to get a hold of that Jesus could have arguably picked up.

He could have picked up the lamb, he could have gone for these more extravagant pieces of what was sitting at the table.

But it is horseradish.

We're now including horseradish in all of our Eucharist.

Yeah, absolutely.

I would say, I mean, historically, it's pretty inarguable that bread was about the most common thing that every culture has lived off of, from just about any anthropologist opinion I've ever talked with.

And wine would have been a much safer thing to drink at the time than the water.

So these are kind of two.

Very common, though maybe not.

I understand the traditional pushback to, like, am I saying that we should just take communion with McDonald's because it's the most common food?

Playing around like.

No, I get it.

I do.

And I want to say I deeply, deeply appreciate the beauty with which.

And I think everybody's kind of talked about that, but the beauty with which a loaf of bread and a cup of wine carries.

I think there is something different about that.

Because whether it's grace being imparted in a specific sense, if it's something like the Lutherans talk about something mystical happening, but I still don't quite understand the difference between Catholic and Lutheran community.

That's a different conversation.

But.

But, like, as you see those pieces, like, I get that, I do.

And maybe that's part of it.

I would lean towards saying, I think there is something inherently beautiful about walking in the footsteps of people, what they've been doing for thousands of years.

So if bread and wine are available to you.

Sick.

That sounds like the greatest thing.

That's what we use for community.

I. I completely agree with that.

But in circumstances where, I mean, we had a Sunday where out in Utah, somebody went to go pick up the bread that we typically got, and they accidentally, genuine accident, accidentally bought garlic bread, not like Texas toast garlic bread, but like garlic flavored bread.

And it was, it was off putting.

Like, I'll be completely honest about it, I took a bite And I was like, what the heck is this?

This is different.

But from my perspective, do I think God was any less honored by that?

I do not.

I don't think that's the case.

I do think that Jesus was making a statement by using the most readily available element on the table during Passover, I think does still speak true to what we see today.

I don't have an issue with that, but I understand the pushback.

Appreciate it.

Yeah, yeah, I appreciate the answer.

I like that.

I think I agree.

For the record, I just felt like it's necessary to point out the Passover elements.

No.

So my thing for Chris and then, yes, TJ will text you about 10.

But Professor Moylan, as the only one here who is of the Catholic tradition, we've brought up a lot of stuff that I would just kind of like to hear your take on.

When it comes to a lot of Protestant ideas being it doesn't really matter what the elements are if they're blessed from a priest.

And of course that's going to come from that disagreement about transfiguration which we've mentioned.

But I don't know if we've actually addressed, you know, Lutherans, I think Orthodox as well as Anglicans have this, like, real presence idea where it's not literally the body and blood of Christ, but it's like he's really there.

We just don't know how, so we're gonna leave it ambiguous.

So we had that.

And, you know, I also mentioned stuff about praying for the sick over the phone or sending the elements to people who aren't able to attend.

So I would just kind of like your response to just some of the stuff we haven't had the chance to hear from you on yet.

Reminds me of what Flannery o' Connor said.

If it's symbol, to hell with them.

So, I mean, if your eucharistic, you know, theology is that it's a memorial, okay, go ahead, use Twinkies and Coke.

What's the problem?

But for those that believe in the real presence, for those that believe in divine mystery, you're going to need the right elements, and they're going to need to be done by an ordained minister.

So that's, I mean, my really concise take on it.

But, yeah, I think it is very important to know, for those that are new to this podcast, that there are differences in eucharistic theology between various Protestant denominations.

The Lutherans, the Anglicans, the Methodist, Episcopalians, Moravians, Mennonites, they're all going to have slightly different theologies.

And I think it's important to know that because a lot of Protestants just seem to church shop, which is fine.

Catholics do it too.

We just try to find the parish that has the best liturgy, I guess, and the best sermons.

But, you know, I think people should understand their Protestant.

What is it that their denomination teaches about the Eucharist and what.

I mean, not to be too emotional, but, like, what are your feelings about that?

Like, how does it resonate with you?

Like, how does it resonate with your study of Scripture?

Does it make sense?

Maybe it's time to change denominations because of.

It's not in accord with what you thought.

What about.

We've mostly talked about the Eucharist, a little bit about baptism.

Are there any of the other sacraments you think that maybe we should talk a little bit more on.

With.

With remoteism?

Or do you think that's just kind of.

We could shrug it off?

I think we can shrug it off at this point.

All right.

All right.

So is there anything else that anyone thinks we need to address or talk about concerning sacraments or remote church participation?

I want to say yes and amen to what.

What the professor said, as far as, hey, you know what?

Ask yourself, what do you believe and why do you believe it?

Ask yourself, how does that make you feel?

Ask yourself, whoa, okay, so.

So they do it once, you know.

Well, I'm.

I'm very used to the whole idea of the first Sunday, and so I'm gonna keep using that object lesson, but, you know, it's a once a month thing.

Okay.

How do you feel about it being a once a month thing?

Would you rather be a once a week thing?

Would you rather it be wine instead of grape juice?

Would you rather it be a loaf of bread?

Ra the gimmick cracker?

What, like, interrogate how you feel and be willing to say, okay, you know what?

For this season of my life, however long that is, it could be, for the rest of your life, you are making the conscious choice to partner with a different denomination, because that is more in line with where you are at now.

I get it.

I understand what I just said, and I understand that.

That in some situations, in some.

Some circumstances, there are huge red flags with the idea of a temporary partnership with a denomination and all of those kinds of things.

Again, I. I cannot square every single circle, but the.

There's a mentality that goes along with an openness to being willing to explore other denominations and be willing to say, okay, there are differences between different Protestants.

There are differences between different high church traditions.

There are differences between Protestantism and Catholicism or Protestantism and forms of high church.

And be willing to say, to poke your head out of the hole enough to say something more than I've always been this, my family's always been this.

This is where I'm from, and thus this is what.

This is what I am.

I think there's a courage that goes along with being willing to explore these things and actually ask yourself, what do you believe?

Rather than just blindly accepting whatever tradition has been handed down from you to you without doing any introspective thought about it.

Yeah.

Since there's no Methodist presence, I'm going to go ahead and reference the Wesleyan quadrilateral here.

I mentioned earlier why I think tradition is important and that I'm not the smartest person in the church and I never will be.

I think the Bible is important for obvious reasons, I hope.

Reasoning.

I think most of us just agree.

If you're going to listen to podcasts that talk about this kind of stuff, you're probably like, yeah, reasoning is important.

Right.

I really feel like a lot of times experience gets downplayed.

The reason I think anointing of the sick as a sacrament is because I've experienced it.

I've watched people sit there and pray.

I've had my own moment where I was faced with death and felt the spirit of the Lord say, hey, do you want to go back?

You know, like, I've seen these things.

So for me, that's why I call that a sacrament.

The reason I'm open to baptism being done different ways, and this is going to probably make Professor Moreland cringe a little bit.

I've been at a church camp where kids were jumping in the pool during baptism, and it was complete and utter chaos.

And, man, I felt the spirit of God there.

So even though part of me is like, that doesn't equate my experience says I might not know the whole picture here, and that's where I'm open to different things.

And because I've experienced Eucharist in person with.

With the bread baked from people in the church and realized, man, I felt a lot more here than I did with the little wafer and stuff at the other church, that doesn't mean my experience is the same as everybody else's.

But I don't think we shouldn't.

I don't think we should ignore experience as much as we do.

And for the record, those kids were jumping in that pool because they felt the spirit of God moving and they.

Wanted to go get baptized.

And they were rushing to the baptism.

Yeah.

Just so we're clear.

Yeah, yeah.

But anybody else anything to add or respond to that?

Or does Professor Moylan just want to verbally condemn us all real quick?

That's not what I'm here to do.

Good, good.

I'm here to listen and learn and share, you know, and be in communion with y'.

All.

Yeah, well, it's been really important to hear the Catholic perspective on this, so we kind of are more aware.

I also feel like I would have felt a lot more alone without somebody else who's a little bit stronger on that theology of presence.

All right, well, then we do always like to end our show with practical action where we just ask people something tangible that our listeners could do that would help better engender unity in the church.

We're going to be a little bit specific here.

Can we come up together?

Can we come up with something practical people can do to address some of the divisions in how we do sacraments?

You know, today I feel like we were all kind of able to play it off and kind of ingest talk about the differences.

But like, for some people, they get really mad when they hear that someone did communion with Twinkie and a Mountain Dew.

And some people get really mad when they hear you think salvation can be through sacrament and not through just the simple prayer or, you know, like the idea that I talked about, like, grace being really present.

Some people are like, oh, man, you're over spiritualizing and get really angry at me for some of this.

How do we, you know, like, how do we have unity?

How do.

How do people do what we're doing today?

We're able to kind of play some of this off in jest, even though we.

You do have some pretty starch differences.

Professor Moreland, would you kick us off here?

You've.

You've been.

You've been the one who's put up with the most nonsense.

I think whether it's spirituality or academia, having a sense of benevolence and inquisitiveness and curiosity is really important.

A rush to judgment or assuming worst intent is just not going to get you anywhere.

So I also think that it's as far as possible, you should be as authentic to your tradition as possible.

So if that's what your tradition's doing, go in line with it.

That's hard for me because I disagree with some of my tradition on some things.

That sweet wine thing, it just really kills me.

Not everybody does it, but, man, I don't Love it.

Joe.

Joe, how do you answer this?

How do we do what we're doing today?

For those listening who are like, man, you're just talking to these people, and they're talking about the real presence of God and Eucharist, and you're like, they're crazy people, but you don't want to say that.

So, like.

Like, how.

How do they do what you're doing?

Don't drop.

Drop the necessity to.

To.

To convert.

Drop the necessity to change minds.

Be willing to stop and.

And authentically listen to what.

To what the other person has to say.

Because if nothing else, you may learn something.

Like, I. I learned certain things from Professor Moreland today that I just simply did not know about the Catholic tradition.

And so if we can stop feeling like we need to defend ourselves or defend our tradition and just simply live in the context of the tradition that you practice and that you.

You support and do so openly, then I think there, the air changes if the different people involved in the conversation are willing to do that, and you can at least have open air to be able to say, oh, okay, from my perspective and from my point of view, this is this and this and this is that without saying, oh, because I think this way, you're wrong.

Yeah, Matt, Same.

Same question.

Just something practical that helps people do what we were able to do today.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think kind of both of you guys said it, but just being curious in general, I. I think is really, truly one of the best things you can do in all aspects of life, like ask questions, listen with respect, be curious.

Because I. I think I got to meet with Mark Matlock from Barna a couple weeks back, and he's just written a book on curiosity.

And one of the things that stood out to me was that in Barna's research, Christians are the least curious people in the US we are the least open to listening, the least open to change, which doesn't surprise me because I've been around Christians my whole life, so I get it.

But.

But that's bad.

We need to change that.

We need to be curious.

We need to have open and honest communication.

I think is huge.

All right, so what changes?

If everyone takes all three of those suggestions and does them, who knows what happens?

Does anyone see that?

Well, also, again, I'm gonna throw it at the Professor Moreland again, because he's the one that we say professor for.

How do people do that?

Because everything we said here is like, be curious.

Be.

Listen.

But, like, I feel like it's hard for people to just Go out and be curious.

Go out and listen.

You know, like, how do we develop that?

Honestly, you want to develop it.

Sometimes you develop it by making mistakes and learning the hard way.

I was hoping you're saving the whole church podcast.

Yeah.

So sometimes a classroom is where you have a.

Maybe you make the mistake, maybe someone else makes the mistake, and you see the ramifications of that and you learn really quickly.

Yeah, that's not how we're going to conduct the class or have a conversation.

And it sticks with you.

I kind of thought he was going to say go to a Mass.

Well, that too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Matt, how would you answer that before we get to TJ's question and he strangles me for making the podcast too long?

How do people develop curiosity and good listening?

I think the first step is you go buy a whole church T shirt.

That's what I heard.

No, I'm just joking.

Yeah.

I genuinely think an aspect of it could in fact be go to a Mass.

Like, I know that's a really strange piece for especially an Anabaptist pastor to stay, but the truth of the matter is, like, my job is not trying to convince you against your will what I believe is true.

Like, I really do firmly believe what I believe.

And I do believe that if it's true, that the beauty and the truth of that will shine through.

And I don't mean that as a slight against mass, but, like, go check out other places.

Like that's not a bad thing.

Go experience that.

Be respectful.

Respectful, of course.

Don't.

I. I took communion when I went to Mass because I was like 13 and I didn't know I wasn't supposed to, but at this point in life, I, I wouldn't like you go be respectful and listen.

Ask the questions.

I, I really do think taking that step to get out there is a.

Is a huge thing that could benefit people.

Yeah, I'm gonna add on too, and kind of do self promoting, but only sort of.

I actually do think podcasts are good ways of developing listening.

You can't argue with your podcast, you know, and if you're really curious, you hear something you never heard before.

I think we're on, like, I, I started following and it's a Greek Orthodox podcast of these two priests.

And it's the usually two hours episodes.

It's like once a month.

And I always learn something that I'm like, I would have never known any of this.

So, you know, maybe if you're Pentecostal, follow a Catholic podcast.

If you're A Catholic and you heard some weird stuff out of, like, Joe and Matt, go find a Mennonite brethren's podcast.

Like, I'm sure it exists, you know, And I think just finding ways to listen to one another, read a book, I think it's helpful.

Joe, what happens when we do this?

I think we.

I think we are able to better showcase the power and presence of God.

I think we are able to better showcase the heart and character of God and what is capable when we drop the idea that we are not on the same team, even if we don't believe all of the same things.

Good stuff.

I knew it would be worth it.

So before we wrap up, we like to do what we call our God moments, which is where we share a moment where we saw God recently.

Whether that be a blessing or challenge or moment of worship or a curse, whatever it may be, whoever it could be.

I always make Josh go first to give the rest of us as much time to think as possible.

So, Josh, do you have a God moment for us?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think.

Which one to do?

I know which one.

I was at work almost two hours late the other day.

Yeah, there's just a lot of stuff that I needed to fixed around the store that.

Yeah, I've been doing that.

I've actually been doing the figure eights.

I went and bought a notebook that I just wrote figure eight on the top.

And every morning and evening I do it and like, man, we gotta fix all this stuff.

Yeah.

And, yeah, it was almost two hours over.

One of the other guys who was there, I've developed a friendship with.

He's all.

He's cool.

He's a Christian guy.

If he's listening, shout out, Tyler.

But he literally.

He was doing something.

He was asking me how he should clean something that was in the lobby or something.

I was like, dude, why aren't you supposed to leave two hours ago?

And he's like, well, I gotta get this stuff done.

I need to make it look good.

And I was like, no, no, you don't.

You can go.

It's okay.

And he just stared at me for a while.

And I was like, that's right.

I also have a life and shouldn't be here forever and reminded me that work's not always the most important thing.

And he didn't even say a word to do it.

So, yeah, that'll be mine.

I'll go next.

And this time I'm gonna cheat because I never get to cheat.

Yeah.

So I have two.

The first one, I think the most relevant One is this past Sunday, I went to an apostolic church.

That's still cool.

Yeah.

So that was, for me, not that shocking, you know, like, I'm Pentecostal.

Like, it's not that different, but it was still a great opportunity.

It was fun to talk to the pastors and, you know, like, meet these people who are in a similar distinct tradition and see how they wear that.

So that was really fun and eye opening just to experience.

And I wish.

I wish I could get other people to go to an apostolic church because it's possible to go to a Pentecostal service and, like, nothing be too crazy.

Not.

Not an apostolic church.

It's going to be allowed.

You know, I'll do it.

They go the full way every time.

See, that's not surprising for you either.

I need Christopher Moreland to go to an apostolic service and see how he.

Thinks and film it for the whole church YouTube page.

That would be very, very interesting.

Yeah.

But that was awesome.

I was super glad to be able to do that.

Also, my car broke down recently.

AC compressor went out, Serpentine belt runs the water pump.

Couldn't drive it.

Whatever.

I still have to work, you know, and that's a really expensive fix for my car because my car is stupid.

So got my dad to work on it.

Right.

While I'm working and borrowing his car.

And I felt really bad about it because, you know, like, I hate, you know, ask my dad to do stuff.

Super lucky that I can still do that, but still feel bad about doing it because, you know, my dad is 60.

Like, my dad's an old man.

But what made me feel a lot better about it is that when I went to, you know, help on, like, the final day, like, it was almost done, I went to go get it and help him finish it.

I found out that he also had to get help from his dad, my grandpa.

Nice.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Love that.

Yeah.

Super relief.

That's God.

Because, you know, three generations of people working on the same stupid car to get it fixed is something special.

And also, I'm extremely blessed to be able to do that.

Yeah.

Now my second God moment.

No.

Yeah.

Yeah.

TJ has to have his car breakdown once a year, and I'm just thankful that this year it won't be for theology beer camp.

It happened early, so he'll be able to go.

Yeah, twice this year.

So that's cheating.

Joe, do you have a God moment for us?

Yeah, I just got my car back today, and it was cheaper than I thought it was going to be.

So it was a Easier fix than it looked like it was going to be.

If I knew there was a theme.

My wife's car has been having problems.

I could have.

You need three?

No, it's okay.

I'll just.

Okay.

I'll be the odd one out.

All right.

So, Matt, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

I've got a flat tire on my truck, but I'm not going to talk about that.

I do, though.

But no, for me, genuinely.

My.

My daughter's got a lot of medical issues.

My.

My middle child, and she's always kind of somewhat fragile, and she ended up with a very strange autoimmune disease that just kind of started over the weekend.

Like head to toe, covered in hives, and just absolutely miserable.

And it's terrible.

But I would say in a.

In a retrospective sense, as she's starting to get better today, there really is always that element when, like, my kids are sick and you would just give anything to try to help, give anything to be in their place and not have them have to take that on.

That.

It really does genuinely just always remind me of, like, God's love for us, the.

The ability that he has.

I think it's easy to sometimes not think about that as I'm going throughout my day to day stuff and then think about, man.

Like, I would give anything for my daughter to feel better in this moment.

And God literally did give everything for us and for me, I think in a father perspective, I appreciate that side of things.

So that's mine for this week.

Amazing.

So, Professor Moreland, you have a God moment for us?

Absolutely.

I just finished teaching a class with Dr. Diana Pasulka on Armageddon, Apocalypse and Antichrist.

We had like 120 students.

We had the best time.

And we're going to start prepping for our next round where we will be focusing on the AI Apocalypse.

So we're gonna.

We started broad now we're gonna go deep.

But I've been very touched by the experience and by the wonderful students we've had and the energy that's there for continuing adult education.

It was far beyond what my cynical little heart expected.

So it's moved me.

It's moved me and given me some hope.

Yeah, that's great.

I do believe the link for those classes is in the whole church Facebook group page.

Thank you.

And I will follow up with you when Rhett.

When you can sign up for the next class.

Awesome.

Cool.

So if you like this episode or if you really hated this episode, please consider sharing with a friend or your enemies share with your cousins.

Legally obligated to.

Especially your cousins.

Yeah, they're obligated to check out whatever you send them.

Everyone knows that.

Especially the closer it gets to Thanksgiving.

They just, they dread you asking, oh, what'd you think of that podcast I sent you?

Yeah, they're gonna listen so they don't have that awkward, you know, and if.

They'Re not and they're listening to this now, then they will.

Yeah.

So if you'd like to get in touch with us just some more, just be more connected with the whole church as a podcast, chat with us on our discord.

The link should be in the show notes.

Get in there, bug us, ask us questions.

You can do anything except type at everyone.

You'll get banned for that.

I know.

I did it and I got banned.

You can only talk to TJ on there.

Just me.

Also, again, I, I am actually kind of proud of some of these new shirt designs.

I think people should check them out in there.

They're comfort color T shirts.

If you guys like those shirts, check it out.

It's worth it.

And for no other reason than like, sometimes it can be expensive to get a comfort color shirt.

And I will, I will say Josh is pretty effective way marketing blind and deaf.

So he's really done a great job with it with this recent, these recent designs.

Yeah.

Also check out the other shows on the ONAZA podcast network, also with Fun Merch, Systematic Ecology.

TJ and I are both on that.

You can occasionally, when I remember to update, listen to Will on the homily with Pastor Chill.

Will.

And of course, Brandon Knight has Kung Fu Pizza Party and who doesn't like Kung Fu Pizza and shorter podcast.

I think everybody, everybody loves that.

Yeah.

Imagine having a shorter podcast.

So we hope you enjoyed it.

Next week we're going to be talking with Brian Wrecker about his book Hellbent and the dangers of bad theology around the doctrine of hell.

After that, we'll be talking with Dr. Peter Beck about his upcoming book on his own personal journey of faith and PTSD PTSD.

It's called the Dark Night of the Soul.

After that, we're gonna be having Dr. Ernest Lucas, a biblical scholar and the vice principal emeritus of Bristol Baptist College, join us to discuss the books of Daniel and Proverbs in the Bible and their relevance for church unity in our modern times.

And then we'll be having conversation with Pastor Will Rose, Ryan Doze, and Josh Patterson about cursing, cussing, swearing, and telling dirty jokes.

Yeah, yeah, yep.

We're gonna be doing all of that.

Yeah, we're gonna be doing all those things.

I think that's the.

And by we, I mean definitely.

I was like, at least J. Patty.

Yeah.

Ryan and Josh actually probably will do all.

Most certainly will do those things.

So at the end of season one, Francis Chan's gonna be on the show.

Something to look forward to.

Might have been about it.

So someone should probably tell him.

It won't be us, but someone should tell him.

I think.

Yeah, it might be useful, perhaps.