Hi, my name is Debbie Kumenti.

I'm the author of Kid Clown and the Butterfly Adventures.

Hi, I'm Cassidy Lee.

I'm the illustrator of the book.

Thank you very much, Debbie and Cassidy, for appearing on the Adventures in the Heart of Children's Book Authors Podcast.

It's cool for those listening is Debbie is the author and Cassidy is the illustrator.

And they brought this children's book to life called Kid Clown and the Butterfly Adventures.

It's awesome because we're going to spend time discussing Debbie and Cassidy's new book series because it sounds like they have more adventures in store for us and we'll talk a bit about that.

Also, they just launched their new book on August 5th of 2025, just fresh off the off the cross.

So I really look forward to having this conversation with Debbie and Cassidy.

And of course, as I mentioned to you earlier, Debbie, August is a special month for us too, because, Cassie, I was saying to Debbie, we just launched our second book in our book series called Hijinks from the Big Head Folk Music Festival, which I co wrote with my middle granddaughter and my oldest granddaughter.

So that's always a fun thing to do.

Before we jump into the details of Kid Clown and the Butterfly Adventures, I want to explain to everybody that what we're doing today is actually we're across three different time zones and that's a first for me.

So we're actually on the Pacific Standard Time, Mountain Standard Time and Central Time.

So that's three time zones in one.

I'm not sure if you get a price for that, but here we are.

I want to give the audience a little background into your relationship and how you both have come on together to promote the book.

Who wants to start first?

Debbie?

I'll start and then I'll let Cassidy take over.

Okay, sounds good.

I am a mother of four boys that are all grown up now.

Our youngest is dating Cassidy, our illustrator.

So over the last three years, learning a lot about Cass.

I like to say it's like an onion, you just keep peeling it back.

And last year we had introduced two Cass's work, some of her artwork, some of her personal illustrations, which just like truly wowed the whole family.

And so in that moment, it's almost like I had this revelation.

This book has been in the production stage for over 30 years.

I started it as just a fun story and went through two other illustrators, which I will always say they did a great job.

But when I started talking to Cass and just had this interest in maybe bringing her in, I Wasn't sure what she would say, but her artwork has truly elevated the story.

Story is good.

We've changed it some, but now it just seems to captivate.

And that being said, Cass was still living on the west coast, moved across to Nashville.

And that to your point, that's been probably the funnest maybe or maybe not.

Challenge is having to connect while we do this work and cast has been a joy to work with.

And to be honest, one of the really heartfelt dreams I had in this season of this book around again was to really exploit Cass.

She's a lot younger, so like the kid meeting different people, these were in different seasons of life, but we've worked very well together.

My dream, on top of just getting it done and doing it, was to hope that Cass would launch in her own career.

And I am here to say she's almost getting so busy from all the outreach that I have two more stories in line and I'm making her research and space for me.

Fantastic.

Cassie, tell us your story from your perspective about this whole relationship and how it's developed into published children's book.

1.

When I started dating her son, I didn't know that Debbie was an author.

I heard a lot of stories about how she was multiple different things.

And so when I heard author, I was like, okay.

And then I read her book and I was like, this is fantastic.

And then she asked me to illustrate it, and it's always been a dream of mine since I was a kid to illustrate a children's book one day.

And I just gave up on that.

I was like, that's never gonna happen.

Gonna get a big girl career and not do that.

And then she asked me and I was just like, this is amazing.

This is what I wanna do for the rest of my life.

I hope this can take me somewhere.

And I mean, her book is beautiful, as I'm sure you've seen it in a bunch of NB1 I've given it to or showed it to.

They absolutely.

They think it's so cute and they love it.

The words and the pictures.

The pictures wouldn't be anything without the words.

I've absolutely loved getting to work with Debbie and I'm really looking forward to writing our other two books or illustrating her other two books.

Fantastic.

So I'm curious, Debbie, but again, with everyone listening, is that feel free, Cassidy, at any time to add.

And I definitely will direct questions at you, but feel free, at some point you say, oh, I can add to that.

So if you want to add to what Debbie's saying, please do.

Debbie.

What I'm trying to always understand and have my audience understand is what does children's.

Because you talked about a 30 year journey.

So tell us what children's book authorship journey has meant to you.

A little background, too, is I have four adult men now, but when our two oldest is when I started this book.

And it was because they were very active young boys, always in the room early.

And it was just a quick imagination one morning developing this story, right?

And it kept evolving and kept evolving.

Actually, the first round was more of a clown figure, if you will.

And it added over time.

I realized that clowns aren't always a favorite.

We've had.

I've had two different illustrators.

And then when I saw Cass's work and honestly, I sent her a picture of one of our grandkids and I said, I want you to captivate a little bit of the Kumentis in this illustration.

And that what we have now is what she came up with.

I just almost cried laughing with tears of joy because it really does look like some of our boys.

I've had people say, isn't that Sam?

To have it where we are now, it just seems like the right time.

It was the right season to do it one more time and do it well, I hope and do it correctly.

But over the years, my husband's been a big support.

And he's always had this song about Kid Clown and Butterfly and he'll sing it.

I'm like, oh, my gosh, we gotta just.

We gotta do it right.

And I feel like bringing Cass, our team together, her and I, I think we did it justice.

So Cassidy kickstarted the whole thing to actually bring it to life.

I think it was Cass who kickstarted me to do it one more time.

It's been around.

It was in Target stores in Minnesota at one time.

It's hit a few stores where we live now.

But when I saw what she did and one of the first things, I said, I really want more bright colors.

I want more primary.

And when she first sent the character now transformed, that was it.

I was like, oh, this is done.

If she will accept the challenge, this is going to be doing it.

And Casti, you said when you read the story, like you fell in love with it.

So when you read it, were you already visualizing how you were going to bring it to life?

Yeah, I do that with everything I read.

So it wasn't super hard for me to visualize it.

And vibrant is how I make my art.

So when she said that, I was like, this is a walk in the park.

I got this, okay?

Because every illustrator comes at the work a little differently.

Like the illustrator that we work with, because our adventures with my grandchildren were real.

So all of our stories are based on real events.

I had photographs that I could send to him and say, this is how I see the story coming to life.

Now, of course, he took real people and real photographs, turned them into the characters that we wanted.

So he did the characters, except for the.

The initial character, Caboose, because we already had that one developed and we already created the plushie.

You probably see Caboose behind me.

And so anyways, from there, that's how we developed it.

So as a illustrator for yourself, Cassidy, a lot of things you can visualize by just the words.

Oh, yeah.

But that's just what I've done since I was a kid.

I'm always sitting in class, daydreaming about anything and everything.

So anytime I'm reading a book, even now, I'm like, I can't not picture it.

Which is why sometimes I have to reread things, because I'm too in my brain about it and just wandering off.

But that's my favorite thing about illustrating, is because I can just read something, just see something.

Wow.

Wow.

What a great skill to have.

Debbie, I'm going to take you back.

We're going to go back 30 years and when you and I were much younger and Cassidy wasn't born yet.

Nope.

So maybe a thought.

Maybe a thought.

Okay, that's good.

Debbie, tell us about the inspiration, if you can, behind the book.

How did it all start and why did it start?

I love to write.

I'm always rhyming.

There's always something rhyming to Cass and her.

She said when she has a vision, it just.

When somebody.

I'm known, when.

Wherever I've worked.

Debbie, we need a birthday card.

Make one of.

And in five minutes, I will write a poem about somebody and make it a birthday card.

So when my kids were little, I would just tell the story, and it was always rhyming.

But what was cool is they enjoyed it enough where we would go to playgroups, and they're like, mom, tell that story.

So then I tell it, and then I'd tell it again, and then I tell it again.

I think at one point my husband said, debbie, have you ever thought of just writing it into a book?

Which I hadn't, but then I did, and it seemed to take off at the time with what we had.

But to be honest, we moved quite a bit.

I think I got a little lazy and complacent and I'm like, that's good.

But then again, when I saw Cass artwork and it just wouldn't leave my mind that I'd never really finished it or completed the project in its best way.

And it's interesting because I had one of my first guests, Terry, Linda Santa Simon, and there's a Hubbard in my cupboard.

She lives in Hamburg, New York.

And she was telling me because she was a school teacher and I believe Cassidy, you're also a school teacher.

Terry told me that she wrote the book 30 years ago and then put it away.

And when she retired, somehow going through stuff, the story popped up and she thought, now I've got to get it published.

I've got no excuse for not having time.

So that's how it all started.

I'm also interested.

Debbie, maybe you can explain this and maybe it's Cassie's influence or just maybe that's just the way it happened.

But I noticed on your website you say the age range for the book is 0 to 8 and I don't talk about this often, but 0 to 8 tends to be what they call early childhood education.

So it's not elementary.

So it's going from 0 to 8 and the child's development.

Why 0 to 8?

Is there any early childhood education in your background or backgrounds?

Like why 0 to 8?

I think with the lack of our team that helped us produce and do, they were ones that after reading it, felt it was best suited for that.

Cass, being a teacher, also supported that.

I will say this though, I was a little concerned, to be honest with you, about zero.

Like what?

But I will tell you, and I'm tooting on this one a little bit.

We have a five month old granddaughter and every time they read her in that book, she literally just flails and grabs it and talks to it.

And again, I don't know that she understands but the colors something about it.

So I firmly now support that.

0h, because she's.

They've said that's her favorite book and I don't think they say that lightly, honestly.

And I'm interested from Cassidy, when you start doing the illustrations, you teach elementary age school students?

Yeah, I teach fourth grade, so they're like 9 to 10.

So 0 to 8's a different educational background because it's early childhood, which is quite a bit different from elementary school.

When you started doing the illustrations, was that a conscious thing or it's just the way Your style is.

And that's the way it worked out.

I think a little bit of both.

I have taught younger kids.

I've taught first, second and third grade.

And I know that kids love color, like anything color or any pictures.

Like when I would read to my second graders, they wouldn't even want to listen to what I was saying.

They were just like, let me see the pictures.

And they would get all behind me and look at the pictures while I was reading the book.

And so I knew if I just made them big and colorful, kids would love it.

Okay, fantastic.

Now I'm going to step back just a bit because now that you've divulged and I have to tell you, I. I think this is my 46th children's book authors interview.

Thank you.

So I haven't talked to one children's book author who hasn't said to me, I did have one.

He said when I first started it was going to be one and done.

He's now the author of five children's books.

So eventually as we got deeper into the conversation, he said, there is no one and done for a children's book authority.

And obviously with two more books that you have floating around your children's book author's brain, I'm just curious about, do you have a children's book business plan?

What's the business behind the book?

And have you both discussed it together?

I think we're probably not your typical team.

I think we just have fun with it.

My goal now is because I see the reaction and see some of the response, Yes, I have two or more stories already written.

Cass has them in her possession and my hope is we can do it before the year's over or sometime in this next upcoming months.

We'll keep going.

I also would like to see them in some of the stores.

We have a museum out here that has butterfly display and so it's a perfect fitting book.

And they're looking to bring it into there.

And I'm really enjoying just donating.

I've been donating it.

I went to a preschool today and gave it to them.

I donated it to my grandson's kindergarten class just for the exposure and then see where it takes us.

That's my business plan.

I would love to keep doing it.

Okay.

Cass is.

I'll let her speak to this.

But is close to, I don't know his last name, Ricky.

And he's a well known artist of a band called Wild Feathers.

Okay.

He actually offered to cast one day when you guys keep going.

I'll play your music for your song.

So it's fun to think and dream a little bit.

I love it.

I love it.

So you'd like to have a song that goes with the book?

Like an audio, I guess, the whole.

Yes, I'll share an idea.

I'll share an idea with you.

Please do.

Here we go.

So what we did.

This is a children's bookmark we made up so you could.

And it's got an audio file, so you see the QR code.

My middle granddaughter has that voice that we envisioned for Caboose, because Caboose is actually a female.

And she made the audiobook of our original book, which is the Adventures of Putin Rocky Mountain Bear.

What we did is to encourage people to purchase our book, we made up a audio book.

But you guys could do the same thing, make up a bookmark rather than an audiobook.

You could have your song, and then that would encourage people to buy your book and listen to the song that.

Ricky.

There you go.

Cass, you go ahead and get on that because you're swimming's free time.

I know.

I do nothing all day.

I just shared that with you.

That there's always so many ways to.

To introduce that kind of thing into your books or.

I had an author, Lisa Escalise, she wrote a book, My Favorite book of lullabies.

And she has a tremendous voice and plays the piano.

And so she actually made up these lullabies and she recorded them, and she put the QR codes right in the book.

And so when you buy the book, you can actually just hit the QR codes and listen to her sing the lullabies that she wrote for her grandchildren.

I think the world is our oyster.

There's just so many things you just don't know until you start to get into it.

I. Yeah.

Technology is amazing.

I want to talk to you about your publishing approach.

And I was looking in your book, Cassie.

I was showing Debbie that I purchased the book.

Now it's on my iPad.

But look how vibrant your colors are.

Like, turn it this way.

Look at that.

Isn't that beautiful?

Glad it shows up on screen, too.

Yeah, it does.

It's amazing.

So, anyways, I just want you to let you know I had the book, so thank you.

You're welcome.

So I could talk to you about the book and not pretend I know something about it.

But now that I've read it, I noticed that from a publishing standpoint, you don't have a publisher's name in the book.

So tell us that story.

In theory, it's like we published it ourselves.

We went through a marketing team, if you will, that guided us and helped us get it through Amazon Publishing.

So it's really kdp, which is their name.

So Amazon, upon orders, will print and send out, print and send out.

So in this, in essence, it's our own publishing through their help, which was really cool.

Now we can sell it in a bookstore or whatever and they can price it themselves.

You've got an ISBN number on the back of it, is that correct?

Yeah.

Yes.

Okay.

So just so you know, we set up our own publishing company just like you have, except we actually named it.

We named ours Caboose, the Rocky Mountain Bear Publishing Den.

And we just put above the ISBN.

Okay.

Okay.

The reason I wanted to ask you that because your book is the first one I've seen that doesn't have a publishing company name on the book.

You know, that's almost 50 children's books that I've gone through, including ours.

And I haven't seen where you haven't had a publishing company's name.

Now that doesn't mean you, you have to have one.

I just had never seen that.

Obviously it's not that important because you have it published.

No, it.

There are.

I will say this though.

I've looked into some opportunities and it's not a downside, but I looked into for instance, Dolly Parton, Imagination Library and they only bring in books that are through Random House Publishing.

I guess a more for me financially more affordable the way we went.

Okay.

And to make sure and see where we do and how we do.

And also it was a very hands on with who we worked with.

We were the masters of our domain.

They would guide us and I, I appreciated that, especially since we're trying this out now For Cassidy, as I mentioned earlier, I'm very grateful that this has launched her career because she is talented and probably didn't realize how talented.

So this is a great.

I think she did realize that she doesn't like to speak about.

You're making her bluff.

Yes, I do, always.

But it was the right way to do it for us.

Okay.

And the reason I ask is because I do talk about.

Again, we're talking to aspiring children's book authors.

So I'm trying to have them understand that there's generally three ways of publishing.

You can either go traditional publishing, which is to go and find a literary agent and then they find you a publisher.

But then that gets to be quite cumbersome and it takes a long time.

You can get self published, which means that you go and you hire someone to do all the work and you keep all the rights, but you've hired someone, you paid them 15 to $20,000 and they bring your book to life and they give you a beautiful book, but it's cost you 15 to $20,000.

And then there's the industries terminology, indie publishing, which is independent publishing, which is what you guys have done.

And what we've done is we've been like you said the.

What did you call it?

The masters of your own domain.

Domain.

Yeah.

And yeah.

So I always say to people, you know what you should learn, if you can, the skills and become your own general manager and be an indie publisher.

Because the cost of going through a self publishing house, and don't get me wrong, they do a beautiful job.

The only thing is with all that money, if you could take even half of that money and put it into sales and marketing, because once you have a product, now what do you do?

And that's where I'm trying to educate aspiring book authors, is for them to understand.

The easy part is getting the book published.

The hard part is the sales and marketing.

Because if you have a beautiful product but no one ever sees it.

And how do you do that?

With whom we worked with, we had four months of a contract that she worked with us every week, gave us how to's, how do's and following.

I still can reach out to her, which I did.

Today we are just branding ourselves very much.

But there, where I live, have had some connections.

I actually looked up the other day, we had someone in Canada buy our book.

I'm like, what?

So we're just doing the best we can.

Going through kdp.

You can, it's worldwide.

Yes.

So I've talked to children's book authors that have sold books in India.

I was talking to an author, she was shocked.

She sold a book in India.

She's thinking, I don't know anybody in India.

How do they buy my book?

Absolutely.

It's very cool.

And the likes of your podcast, Rick, that's a wonderful opportunity for us.

It's one more way of getting out there and sharing what we've done, which I'm very grateful.

And then some of these interviews that we're getting from local TV or whatever, every little bit helps, but you have to work hard at it for sure.

Is there anything else you wanted to add, Cassidy, about this whole publishing end of it?

I'm not sure how much you were involved in it, but bringing it to life, how did you see it?

Yeah, I Loved the ladies that we worked with.

Her name's Meg.

She's fantastic.

We had a meeting every single Thursday for an hour.

And then Debbie and I would talk every single day about what we were going to post.

And she was tremendous help with getting us of what to post for social media and everything.

And I think going through kdp, it's a little bit difficult just because the technology and if you have to connect with someone like Debbie was talking to somebody like for an hour, like three different people and.

But she.

You have to be very consistent with it.

And Debbie's a very consistent person.

So persistent persistent and persistent consistent both together.

She is both of them.

We'll make up a new word.

But I just.

One of the classic lines from Cass, which will always stay with me, is one of the first things Meg asked on our launch interview.

And Cassidy's response was, Debbie and I had very many phone calls.

Oh, so we had a few phone calls.

Just a couple.

Yeah, there we go.

Now, you know what?

It's interesting because I've actually brought on because generally I just.

Generally our guests are indie or self published children's book authors.

But I have lately in.

In the.

Probably about 2/3 through about.

In the.

About the 32nd, 33rd episode of the podcast show, I found that I needed to share with people.

If I'm encouraging people to be indie publishers, then I should bring on some guests that actually help you so that you're.

As a general manager or as a.

Or did you call it master of the domain?

Yeah, master of the domain.

If you're the master of the domain, you have to be the master over your domain and who's your minions that are working for you?

So I brought on the book formatter and he talked about how what he does in getting your book ready.

So the cool thing about.

And he's also my book formatter.

So the nice thing about it, he gets the book ready in print and in ebook format and then he just hands the files over to me and I download them to kdp and I've yet to have any issues.

Something as simple as a book formatter who does that for a living can make your life so much easier.

And you don't even have to phone kdp.

You just download it and magically it appears and they send you that message and it says your book has been successfully downloaded.

I know, it's crazy.

It is.

We did have some challenges with that.

So if I wanted to tell any future author we did meet under the contract we were in a woman named Jody, and she's phenomenal.

And I reached out to her today for our future books, and she will help us.

I'd rather pay a couple hundred dollars.

Who knows what they're doing to do that and less hassle.

That's why I brought on con lavery.

Episode 29.

I thought, you know what?

I've got to bring on a book formatter who can talk to you about, because as you guys know, you have to have the book cover separate to download the file and then the interior of the book separate to download.

But once you do that through kdp and if your files are correct, it just happens in minutes.

Yes.

They're magic.

Yes.

I want to talk to you about your website development, because I went to your website.

I always encourage children's book authors to have a website to have a home for their book, because KDP or Amazon or ingramsparks or any of those, they're online retailers.

You need to direct people sometimes to your home.

And I know you guys have put together a website.

I even actually signed up for the newsletter and all the goodies.

So there you go.

Wow.

I wanted to do that because I again, I wanted to understand a few things so that people, children's book authors, understand the website part of the business.

You produce your website before you launch your book, correct?

Yeah, we did.

And how far in advance did you do that?

I think we got it started like maybe almost two months before we launched our book.

Okay, so two months before your book.

Now, I noticed going to the website you talked that you are launching your book, but it hasn't.

You haven't switched it over to say ta da.

That's a really good point, Rick, and thank you for that.

But I have been in touch with the woman who develop the website, and we are trying to connect on a time that we can.

I'm a little behind on how to manage it after she has developed it.

I noticed that.

And that's the first thing we need to change.

We're out, we're done, we're ready.

So we're in.

That's the learning curve.

That is something that is.

I'm trying to connect with her again.

Time zones always make it harder.

So we're in different time zones and we're just trying to connect where we can be.

She can guide me through.

Cass and I are both administrators on that website.

But this is just part of the learning curve that when you're doing it as the master of your domain, you got to remember to stay on top of these things.

And I don't quite know quite how to master that yet.

And that's okay.

I bring that up so that again, to help other people understand that.

Yeah, you take those things into consideration.

And we had a guest on, actually, Terry Lindga, who I talked about earlier, who was a retired teacher, took her 30 years to bring her book to market.

She actually put me on to her website developer and I had him on as a guest to explain to everybody the nuances of the steps you have to go through to bring your children's books website to life.

Yeah.

Because the other thing, if I can make a suggestion, you may already know this, so I'm not telling.

So if I'm speaking at a school, Cassidy, you can slap my hand.

So anyways, I noticed that you don't have any of your social media links on your website.

I think we even discussed having that on there.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I would suggest when you're talking to your website person, make sure they should be putting both Debbie and Cassie, your social media links on there.

Because I don't know how many followers you have in Facebook and Instagram.

It's important because if you're drive people to your home and then you're not going to let them in.

So again, I'm just throwing that out as a suggestion.

That's wonderful and thank you for that because the timing couldn't be better.

I actually.

Funny, I just emailed her earlier today about it and she just said, I'm sorry, the time got away.

So we are actually meeting tomorrow and we'll get things started.

So you know what the beautiful thing about it, like, if you go to our website, which is caboosetherockymountainbear.com Caboose with a K, you'll notice that all our social media links are on there and it's just a symbol, the icon.

So you just click on it and it takes you right to our social media links.

That's wonderful.

Yeah.

So I would suggest that.

I'm sure he does that all the time, so you won't be asking her to do something she doesn't do all the time.

No, you're absolutely right.

And I think that's what we're.

All the information we learn is part of the journey and it's welcome.

Yeah.

Thank you for being generous and taking the advice.

So I'm curious, Debbie, if we can go back again.

I don't know if it's the 30 years, but was there a specific person or event that motivated you to actually write your children's books?

My Husband.

Oh, cool.

Heard that.

More than once he would hear me talk about it and tell these stories because, of course, he was just as early interrupted as I was because he saw the excitement around it.

He's the one who said, look, why don't you do it?

Why don't you try it?

And so we did.

I know you had said, I'm thinking about Cassie and your involvement with the characters.

Do you think the familiarity of knowing Debbie's family helped inspire you to come up with the graphics the way they are?

I would say yes.

I think knowing the commentees is very helpful in every way.

If you look at any of their childhood pictures, they all look exactly the same, which is absolutely insane to me.

So, yeah, I think knowing them and being around them and seeing how they act, yes, I think it helps.

Oh, okay, great.

So I want to delve into that a bit more because I want to talk about character development.

So tell me, Debbie, from your standpoint about Kid Clown, and tell us why you use that approach to the character development.

And did you and Cassie come up with the look of Kid Klown together or was it a separate thing?

Tell us about that, this whole character development.

Because having a close relationship with your illustrator, especially as Cassie just described, she knows the family well.

You get in behind the curtain, Cassidy.

Sure.

So tell us about that whole thing about getting behind the curtain and this whole character development.

So again, initially, I was telling the story as if it was a clown person, and I didn't think that was.

As we evolved it, I didn't like it.

It's like some kids don't like clowns.

His name is Kid.

And when I broadcast the.

When she agreed, I.

All I said to her was, I'd like you to just picture the family.

Just that when she sent this picture, he.

It looks, I'm not even kidding, like both of our grandsons.

But more importantly, it definitely carries the traits.

The bigger ears, the big eyes, the eyebrows.

She just nailed it.

It.

It was hard not to just get so excited.

And I'm going to show.

I don't know if you can see this, Rick, but there's a picture of the grandsons and the kid right in here.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And they all wear baseball caps, so she just absolutely nailed it.

And then again, I just asked her to be more vibrant in everything.

Just more vibrant.

And then a little bit of sentimental history.

The logo on kids baseball cap is number 22, which is significant.

Of a young boy that was our third oldest, Gabe's best buddy.

They played soccer together.

And his shirt number and his number was number 22.

And sadly, Hunter was dying in a car accident 16 years ago.

I wanted some tribute that would really hit the hearts of those that knew him and that number.

So that's what is on kids baseball cap.

Okay, so from your perspective, Cassie, would you like to add something?

Debbie's encouraging you folks.

I know you can't.

If you're listening, you can't see, but she's nodding her head and Debbie, come on.

Yeah.

Usually I just let Debbie speak for me, but when she told me the title of the book and I saw like the book, I absolutely despise clowns.

I have a huge fear of clowns.

I hate them so much.

So when she told me that she didn't want it to really look like a clown and she wanted to look more like her boys, I was pumped for that.

And yeah.

Yep, that's all I have to add.

Debbie said everything.

Cass.

And how did you.

I want to ask you, how did you.

And I didn't show you any of those pictures.

How did you come up with that?

Because it's spot on.

And all I said to you was make it look like one of the communities.

I mean, honestly, I just took whatever was in my brain and I made their ears a little bit bigger.

I was like, that has to work.

We have big ears.

We have big mouths.

She gave us nice on that one.

I kept the nose a little smaller, but other than that, it's yes, you guys.

Debbie, jump.

Jump in any time.

If there's questions that I'm missing to ask Cassidy, please do.

There you go, Cassidy.

See?

Now, how dare you give her permission to do that.

Now we've got two of us interviewing Cassie.

So talk to us about the theme.

Debbie, give us, like, the background.

How did you.

Was there circumstances in your life that got you thinking about this whole story and the theme development?

Talk to us about that.

It's so funny.

Rick, I appreciate your question, but I don't know how to answer it.

I just really think I'm very much into being outdoors.

Boys love bugs, insects.

They're always on the ground getting dirty.

It just.

It was what captivated in the moment and.

And I don't even know where the kid clown name came from.

I really don't.

It just was one day there was this kid and blah, blah, blah.

And he let.

He was working at the circus and he was packing up because circuses are seasonal.

But also we traveled and moved a lot.

So I think for me that needing to learn how to meet people no matter where you are or who they are or how they are is really important.

And this message to me portrays that in the.

Who would think that this little boy would now befriend this caterpillar, who then evolves into something yet different and transitions?

And I do feel like Cassidy and my relationship has done that.

I have always been the mom of the boyfriend.

Now I'm different relationship with Cass.

I hope Cass is a permanent member of the family, because if she's not, I'm getting rid of the son.

But I think our relationship and friendship has transitioned like this.

I know a lot about Cass now.

I know more and more, and it's like this friendship has evolved.

I will always be the boyfriend's mom, but I want to be her friend and her author illustrator relationship.

So there's many facets that have unfolded parallel to the story.

That's fantastic.

Cassidy, do you feel the same way?

Oh, yeah.

I think so.

So if you get rid of Debbie's son, the relationship stipples.

Oh, yeah.

I love the.

I love their family.

If it were to happen, if we were to break up, I would be so thrilled to keep the commenties for sure.

See, folks, you get the whole family dynamics going on here, the story behind the story.

So, Debbie, I want to talk to you as a storyteller.

Tell us the central lesson or teaching that you're trying to deliver.

This was long ago, but it almost seems crazy that at a time that we've decided to take it to the next level and get it done.

I really do feel like there's so much diversity.

There's so much separation in the world today, politically speaking, everything speaking.

This was the right time to bring out a story about two different people that came together and became friends, and now they want to go on and follow the sun, do their activities when they can, together.

I am a very outgoing, almost probably too much, very much a relational person.

I just feel like that's what this message is all about.

Don't be afraid.

Not awkward.

It is awkward, but it's not wrong to just say hello to someone, just make them feel something.

And that really is where this message comes from.

The irony here is Cast is a little more reserved and quiet, and I am.

And so I think we've tempered.

She's taught me where to maybe lower it, and I've hopefully taught her to elevate it.

And I think that's what friends do.

And I want people.

Cassidy.

So when you were talking to Debbie, did you guys consciously discuss the central lesson behind the book?

I think we talked about everything here and there.

It wasn't like a.

We sat down and we talked about this is what this is, and this is exactly how it's going to go.

We just kept talking through it and I would send her pages and she'd give me feedback and then we would just repeat that process.

So it was just.

We were working together on it.

It wasn't like a, she's my boss and I'm her little minion, as you would say.

You could see, I have grandchildren and we go to those movies, so.

Oh, love those movies.

Yes.

Yeah.

No, I think our dynamic's really good.

Excellent.

One of the things I stressed to cast from Jump is this is not my project, this is our project.

And so every time someone like yourself reached out, which I was again, thank you.

I made sure she was immediately a part of it and had a say in it.

And I really want that for her because her say is very valuable.

We're ages apart, but I have some things different than hers.

But when we connect and to make it work, that's magical to me.

Fantastic.

Cassie, with your background in education, can you explain, are you using your illustrating capabilities in your teaching or your teaching techniques?

Tell us about that.

Yeah, any chance I can get, I will draw something for them.

And my students love it.

Once they find out I can draw, they ask me to draw everything and anything.

And.

And there's different types of learners, like visual learners, which is what I was as a kid.

So anytime I can take a vocabulary word and just draw a little picture form and then they just copy it down in their book, that's what I do.

So any chance I can get to draw something that will help their brain understand what's happening, I will.

Did you, Debbie, draw on Cassidy's background as an educator?

I probably did.

Subconsciously, I would say a sentence.

We changed obviously many sentences from the original, but I would say, is this the proper language?

Would you follow it this way?

And because she teaches children her projection of a word or words, actually, I trust it very much because she's working with younger kids all the time.

How old are your grandchildren again, Debbie?

I have two five year olds, a three year old and a five month old.

Okay.

So I'm going to give you a little editing nugget.

You ready?

Yes.

So what, luckily for me having my grandchildren is they ended up being my editor in a lot of ways.

Because we've written 38 stories.

I've got them to actually read the stories out loud.

And a lot of times they'll say, I don't think that's appropriate.

They don't say appropriate.

That's the right word for the story.

So while you've got that captive audience, get them to be your editor once in a while.

No, that's very valuable.

My granddaughter, who's 5, I did have the pleasure of sitting down and I interviewed them.

So I wanted to see their perception of the story.

Oh, cool.

And I was impressed.

I asked them what their favorite part was.

They love the bark turning into a butterfly.

Excuse me.

But she was very clear.

I said, so do you remember what happened?

And she said.

And she used the three words.

She goes, the caterpillar fell down, down.

And that is what is in that book.

And I'm like, that's something you remember.

I said, where did they go?

Or where did he fall?

And she knew where.

And then where did he.

So to me, that was a validation that she understood, or her retention of certain parts of it was very high.

Nice, Nice.

So let's talk about the writing process for a second.

I'd like you to share with others your insights into the development and your writing process behind the book.

So now that you've written, you've got one published, you've written two others.

Talk to us about that whole writing development and your process.

I don't know.

Again, I'm all about.

I don't know what the rhyming thing is, but I like rhyming it.

The cadence of it just seems more whimsical, if you will.

So it's not something I sit down and just.

Although I will say, one of the second stories I wrote, I was with a dear friend sitting with her in the hospital for treatment, and I wrote the whole book.

And in that case, I sat still and just did it.

A lot of times I'll think about it, I'll write something down, and then I gotta go back and change it again and again.

So the process is more whatever pops in my head along whatever the storyline is.

And then I go in and I put it in there.

But then I have to read it to make sure the cadence sounds right.

And then I find the words that work.

And then I call on Cass and say, what do you think, Cass?

In the second book, I remember saying to her, I don't know what word this is.

And she gave me this perfect word.

I'm like, oh, my gosh, that was great.

And then you write.

You go off of that.

So I'm more of a.

What's the word?

I'm leaning for it.

I'm not well thought out.

I'm more like this spontaneous.

Yeah, that's probably true.

Okay.

Forecast, more of a thinker and more process.

I'm more, like, organized.

So has Debbie got this capacity?

Sorry, Sorry.

Has Debbie got what she just said?

Yeah, absolutely.

I think Debbie's a go with the flow.

If it comes to me, I'm writing it down, or I know it'll come to me, like, thoughts running in and out of her brain.

And so, Debbie, when you wrote, we'll go to your first book, but also talk about the two other books that you've written, did you just draw on your own personal experience, or did you conduct any additional research behind the books?

And if you did, why did you do that?

So the second one is Kid and his family, which are his three brothers there and the family.

Now we bring in the family dynamics.

They're going on an adventure.

They had to pick where it was.

It was the zoo.

I don't want to give too much away, but I used to train wild animals, so I had fun thinking about it.

Yeah, no, that's really what I did.

And I did train wild animals at a park.

And so I brought the theme of that into this, the next story.

And then the third one is another adventure they take.

I've never physically done what I wrote about, but with Cass's help, we created it.

Cassidy, when Debbie was talking to you about all this, tell us about that.

Have you already started visualizing the second and third book?

As soon as she sent it to me, I started visualizing it, and then I started to work on the second book.

But then I was like, maybe I'm getting too ahead of myself.

Let me calm down.

And then I started getting all this other work, and I was like, okay, let me just put that back.

But I do have, like, somewhat of a layout for the second book down.

Okay, fantastic.

Debbie, we talked before Cassidy joined us, and I'm curious we about success measurement.

So I know we talked a bit about having a book business plan, but let's delve a little deeper into the original goal or goals regarding your book launch and your expectations for the book.

Tell us about that.

I think I'm more timid on what my expectations are.

I think it's because I don't think I've failed, but I don't think I've achieved until now.

So for me, the success is the fact that we got here, the fact that it's out there and that Cass is reaping more benefits than just this book.

That, wow.

Every she'll send a message.

I just got assigned another project.

I'm like, dang.

I told her today that I'll be borrowing money from her now.

You know what you should have done?

You should have said to Cassidy, remember, I'm your manager.

Okay?

He has said that before for don't worry.

Oh, okay.

So I think the going rate now is 50%.

No signed contract over here.

Let me tell you something.

Her payment is the fact that she still loves my son.

Because having a Kamenti man in your life is quite the challenge.

So we're even.

Oh, there we go.

Okay, I want to delve a little deeper.

So I know.

You said it.

It's great to have it out there.

Cassidy, if you want to chime in on this too, but.

Because how do you visualize the success of the book?

This is my first book ever doing.

So I think it's been very successful with what Debbie's told me about people reaching out and wanting to get her book in, and she was super concerned about it not doing so well.

But I was just like, you've put all your marbles into this.

And, like, you've really dove into it this time.

Third time.

Yes.

But you've put in so much work and effort into this.

More than, like, the last time.

I feel.

And I.

People love Debbie.

Everybody loves Debbie.

And, like, her marketing, the way she talks to people.

I knew it was going to get around to people insanely fast.

So I think it's been a success.

How did you visualize it for it came to market?

What did you have in mind?

I don't know.

I was hoping my fingers were crossed that it was going to do well.

Did you see the.

The work that Debbie's describing coming at you the way it has?

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

That's you.

Wait, let me back that up.

Are you asking her if she thought she'd get this much work out of it from that?

Yes.

Oh, no.

Sorry.

Okay.

Okay.

I lost his ass.

Okay.

Yes.

I was thinking, oh, my God, again.

Here's those damn illustrators taking advantage of a children's book author.

No, Absolutely not.

I thought it would just be this.

So sorry.

Debbie, tell me now that you're a published children's book author and you have two other books that you've written in the grand scheme of things now in your life, it sounds to me you got a full life.

You've got four amazing boys.

You've got three grandchildren.

Four.

Four grandchildren and growing.

Tell us, in the grand scheme of things, how do you see the role of being A children's book author in your life.

I'm still a little modest about it, honestly, but I just am very excited.

At the same time, I've had a lot of people come out and go, oh, my God, you've never said you've written a book before.

I'm not one to stand around and boast about it, truthfully.

But now it's getting some momentum, and it does give me a little bit of a rush if this will continue to do well in my season and Cass season and any the grandkids.

I'm very excited and hopeful that we continue to launch and do well.

Okay, great.

And, Cassidy, with your educational background and your profession, how do you see, like, now that you've got people coming to you, how do you see.

And now that Debbie.

And so really, you've got this intimate relationship with the children's book author, which goes deeper than most children's book authors don't have this intimacy that you guys have when a new children's book author comes to you.

What lesson do you think you've gathered from this whole relationship with Debbie that you can bring to the party?

If I came to you and said, you know what?

I'm looking for a children's book illustrator, how can you help me?

How do you approach that, knowing what you know now?

I actually just had that happen to me today, so.

Awesome.

I approach it, I think, with a lot more confidence than I had before because of Debbie.

Like, when asked, this is what it's going to be.

What can you do for me?

Like, how can you help me?

I was just like, here you go.

This is what I got for you.

And I would have never been able to do that before.

So I think the confidence I got alone is the most helpful tool that I could bring from this experience.

Good for you.

Fantastic.

Yeah.

Let's talk about this, Debbie, from the writing standpoint, and then we'll come back to you.

Cassie.

So how does the writing.

How does writing fit into your daily life?

Now?

For me, yes.

That's not writing a book.

I'm always, like I said, writing.

My kids tease me when I send them something, and it's a poem.

I'm like, oh, my God, here comes another poem.

I'm always writing.

There's something I'm writing, but now I'm more focused on writing the book.

Okay, okay.

Yeah.

And so how is illustrating now, Cassidy, working into your life from before being a published children's book author illustrator, to now actually having a book in the world where people can go and say, oh, wow, Cassidy.

So tell us about how that is now fitting into your life.

First, I think it's really uncomfortable for me because a lot of people now know that I do that and they like to talk to me about it.

And they come up to me and I'm like, please stop.

But I think it's really cool.

I'm getting my work out there.

I'm getting to do what I love.

And my hope as a child was to get to do this for money, actually.

So, yeah, I try not to talk about it too much, but now it's impossible not to.

As your manager will bring you more work.

Exactly.

Like, I don't need to speak when I have Debbie.

So it's a lot of depression.

Absolutely.

So, Debbie, advice for aspiring authors.

We're only talking August 5th of this year that you brought your book to life and you talked about this 30 year journey.

So talk to aspiring authors.

What kind of advice would you give an aspiring author?

I would actually.

I know it's such a cliche, follow your dream, which is in the book.

But I do believe that, honestly, if you have something that is valuable to you, that you're putting down on paper and it really is a passion, there's no reason not to share it.

And if you can get the right people in place, what have you got to lose?

And that is where I came to this point when I made the investment.

And it was an investment to hire Meg and bring on Cass.

Although she's been generous, I took it as an investment.

This is an investment of my time that I've been doing for so long.

Why not see what it.

Where it can take me?

And I would say go for it.

If you have the right team and do research, if you reach out to what I did with Meg, we had talked almost six months prior to committing to it, and I had already started talking to Cass.

And we talked about what our timeframe and what it looked like.

And then once we made the commitment, it was done.

And then I felt more confident.

And then once we saw it in print, I felt more confident.

And the more it was going, I was like, oh, my gosh, this is happening.

So I don't think you should say, I want to.

I think someone should say, I'm going to, and then do that work.

Fantastic.

Thank you.

And Cassidy, what advice would you give aspiring children's book authors?

The same exact advice Debbie just gave.

I think you should just do it because you never know what's going to happen.

But then also, you need to be confident enough in yourself to price your artwork as well.

I never knew how to do that.

But you should always ask yourself, like, if I'm gonna put in all this work, like, I know that my artwork is super good, and I'm confident enough in myself that I deserve this and just do it.

Right on.

Fantastic.

I always say this towards the end.

Encouragement for readers.

Debbie, first, we'll talk to you.

So why should children's book readers purchase your book?

Tell us about that.

Why should they?

Well, if you are one that enjoys children's books or your kids, I really do think this one is very whimsical.

It is very fun to read.

And I'm just basing it on the reaction of the kids that I've.

Honestly, what's really cool is people are sending me pictures of them getting the book and their kids reading it.

And I'm using that as my branding and our marketing.

But that in itself tells me there's something there.

And I think for the.

For what it.

For the price that you pay.

You're not just paying for the story, but you are paying for a message, and you are paying for brilliant, colorful, just magic.

And I encourage everyone very much to.

To look into it.

There's in Kindle and a book form.

Every household should have one.

I just want to pick up on that, because the second part of my question is, where can your books be purchased?

So I know have it through Amazon, so you can buy it on Amazon in print.

So you've got paperback and you've got the ebook format, which I love.

It's not that I'm like a children's book genius, because I'm not.

I'm learning like everybody.

And one of the things I find is a lot of children's book authors do not have an ebook.

And even though ebooks aren't a big part of your sale, it certainly helps to have that.

So whoever gave you the advice to do your format in print and in ebook format, like softcover and ebook format, that was good advice.

I just want to say that to you so people understand.

The other thing is, I'm curious.

Usually most children's book authors also download their files.

It's a little different, but not much different to Ingram Sparks, which then gives you access to Apple Books.

It gives you access to Barnes and Noble Online.

Most of the online retailers then have access to your book through ingramsparks.

Is there a reason you haven't done that yet?

I honestly, I don't know how to answer that.

That was part of our marketing group, and I Don't know if that was an additional thing.

Who we work for works through the Amazon KDP print.

And that's, I think, just so you know.

And the I.

The reason I'm telling you is, is that because I've done it with both our books is that the files are the same, it's not costing you any more money.

And again, I'm just sharing this advice is that just talk to whoever did your book formatting and find out if.

Why you can't just take your files and move them over or add them onto ingramsparks also to give you wider distribution.

That's all.

Okay.

Just ask that question for sure.

Yeah.

Wonderful.

Thank you.

So, encouragement for readers, Cassidy, from your standpoint as an illustrator.

So what would you say to them?

Encouraging readers.

Yeah.

Like, why would readers want to even look at your pictures?

Because they're cool.

Have the reader in mind when you did the illustrations.

Children?

I don't know.

I think.

I think everybody.

Everyone loves to look at pictures.

I think.

I don't know.

Oh, you're the first illustrator I've asked this question to, so I was curious.

Oh, gosh.

There's a lot of pressure.

So you got to give me more.

No.

How dare.

Yeah, I don't know.

I drew what I would want to see.

Okay.

So I guess I had myself in mind.

Terrific.

Terrific.

Because she's a kid at heart.

Okay.

I am an adult child.

And now what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask this question to Cassidy first, and then Debbie will go to you.

So final thoughts.

Cassidy, is there anything you'd like to share that you say.

You know what?

I wish Rick would ask me this question as an illustrator.

So was there something I should.

You had this.

I should have asked you.

I think you asked me too many questions.

I think that I guess you didn't.

You asked me, like, how I imagined artwork, but at the same time, I guess I looked up a lot of reference photos.

And I don't know because I've always been afraid to look up reference photos.

Like, I don't want to be one of the, like, considered copying or anything.

Yeah.

So explain reference for us, for the audience.

What does that mean?

That just means, like, if someone has an idea or if I have an idea in my brain, but I can't, like, physically put it on the paper, I'll type it into Pinterest is my go to.

So I'll just type in Vibrant Tree or whatever and then I'll take five reference photos.

If I can't get that image inside my brain, and then I'll take those and I'll merge them together.

And I don't want illustrators to be afraid of using reference photos, even though I don't think most are.

But I know that copying is like a big thing I've seen around.

People are like, oh, you've copied this image and you shouldn't be doing that, and you're not a real illustrator, and blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

If you use reference photos would have been.

I don't know, one question I guess I could add to your question for.

Me and you would have found that helpful or you.

You actually did that.

I actually did that.

Okay.

Yeah.

I do that all the time.

I can take things inside my brain enough, but if I can't get it just right, like, I'll look something up.

Like, I won't copy it, but I'll get five references and do that.

Thank you for sharing that.

So, Debbie, now that we've let your brain bounce that around, is there anything that you said, oh, geez, I wish Rick would ask me that question.

I will say you were very thorough.

There were questions that you asked that they didn't know answers to, so it actually pained me to think about those things.

So I would say that was the plus.

Yeah.

I don't know if you asked me, how did we come up with pricing our book?

And I think that's a valuable question.

Would say it's always worth more.

But then you always have to look at who's your potential audience and what are the times.

Like, my husband was like, every grandparent will buy it.

I'm like, that's not all that I want to buy it.

I want families to buy it.

So pricing a book is not easy, I don't think.

I didn't want to take away from Cass artwork for sure, because I would think it's worth more.

But at the same time, I did research on what books are so much, and then there's those that are of the same size and maybe the same amount that are far less.

But they also have been around C Spot Run, that's been around forever and that can afford to go a little lower.

So I. I do think that's a valuable question because we also have to make a little to pay for what we've done.

And then as this book develops, then we may be able to bring that price down.

I don't think you asked that specifically.

No, I didn't.

And thank you for sharing that because it's interesting.

I always track, even though I don't talk about it on the show because pricing, it's an interesting situation because I actually track all my guests price on their books.

So I look at their pricing on softcover ebooks and hardcover, and it's such a broad range.

And you might say, why is that just for the audience?

The reason being is that I find if you're an indie independent publisher like we are, then your costs.

I'll give you a prime example.

The average children's book sells between 100 and 500 copies over the lifetime of the book.

Okay?

Think about that for a moment.

Digest that.

And if you just spent between 15 and $20,000 for your to bring your book to life and you only sell, let's give you the top end and you sell 500 copies, divide 500 into 15,000, then you can see where I'm coming from.

And that's why I always talk to people about, do you have a book business plan?

Because people think once they get their book, somehow magically it's going to sell thousands.

I have to talk to author Sarah Graves about her book Attack of the Monster Pickles.

She thought her expectation, God bless her, she thought she was going to sell 5,000 copies.

She just had that number in her brain.

And I said, where did you get that number?

And she said, I figured out all my costs and break even.

And so that's.

That's what she needed.

That's what she needed.

That's what she needed.

Yeah.

When, if you listen to our interview, she has brought that number down to a thousand, but she needed 5,000 to break even.

And now she's going to be happy at a thousand.

But the thing about children's book authors is the passion takes over our brain.

And she's about to produce another book.

So that's the way we all are.

I can tell you.

People live in glass houses like myself shouldn't throw stones because you know what?

And that's the beautiful thing about being indie book publisher is you can sell.

I was, I was hoping for a hundred.

That was my goal.

And we're almost there.

So I'm like, okay, that's pretty good.

I didn't look at cost to what I spent.

I didn't.

I just again thought this was an investment.

I kept thinking it's an investment.

So I hope I. I hope we get money out of it.

But again, I was hoping for a hundred.

We're pretty quickly approaching that, and then hopefully it'll just take more.

That's the thing.

That's why I always ask about a business book plan.

You know what, Cassidy, sit down with Debbie.

I get her to a little more planning.

No, I'll try.

Okay, so both of you, Daffy and Cassidy, thank you so much for being.

Thank you.

Guest on the show of the adventures in the heart of children's book authors.

Your generosity of time and insights is, wow.

It's been significant.

I'm sure it'll benefit a lot of aspiring children's book authors and readers.

And we promised the audience we're going to provide links.

So folks, we promise to add that into the show.

Notes if you've enjoyed the episode, please hit the subscribe button and listen to future episodes.

And feel free to share this episode with anyone inspired by or who enjoys hearing about Debbie and Cassidy and their children's book, Kid Clown and the Butterfly Adventures.

Thank you both.

Thank you.