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The 229 Podcast: Strategy, Culture, and Innovation at Providence with Cherodeep Goswami

Bill Russell: [00:00:00] Today on the 2 29 podcast.

cherodeep: I say healthcare is unique because it's an industry that. None of your consumers want to come to you because they want to. They come to you because they need to.

Bill Russell: My name is Bill Russell. I'm a former health system, CIO, and creator of this Week Health, where our mission is to transform healthcare one connection at a time. Welcome to the 2 29 Podcast where we continue the conversations happening at our events with the leaders who are shaping healthcare.

Let's jump into today's conversation.

Bill Russell: all right. It's 2 29 podcast. And today I'm excited to be joined by Cherodeep Goswami, the chief Information Officer at Providence of Renton, Washington. Huge system c Charo. Welcome back to the show. Are, is it CIO or CIDO or CDIO or what other consonants or vows have they given you?

cherodeep: Well, it's Tuesday. So today it's uh, chief Information and digital officer, CIDO.

Bill Russell: CIDO. Alright, I know when you [00:01:00] were at University of Wisconsin, they kept adding stuff and we sort of joked about it after a while. because there was one point you were over like the buses on the campus and you were Oh, I mean, it was crazy the number of things that ended up under your purview over time.

cherodeep: I will say I thoroughly enjoyed it, which you and I have talked over the years that one way to learn technology's best users is to understand operations in running supply chain, running culinary service. Buses were good. A lot of others taught me my place in the universe, let's put it that way.

Bill Russell: Well, we, we go back a ways now. We was the first time we met at BJC

cherodeep: No, actually, you and I crossed paths when we were at Harvard for a session, but then you came and saved my life at BJC through a very important divestiture. And since then, we've become good friends.

Bill Russell: We, we sat through the John Halamka, John Glasser sessions up at Harvard together. We

cherodeep: Yeah.

Bill Russell: we were coming at that from very different perspectives. You were coming at it. From somebody who had been in healthcare. [00:02:00] I was going to that class because I knew nothing about healthcare. Like I'm a CIO for a health system and I'm sitting there going, man, I've gotta do a crash course here.

because you know, you really I'm not sure there's any other industry where the context matters as much as healthcare

cherodeep: I, well, I even, I came from outside healthcare and to this day I say healthcare is unique because it's an industry that. None of your consumers want to come to you because they want to. They come to you because they need to. And two, it's probably the only industry where volumes doesn't equal margins.

Most people don't understand that. They think more patients means more money in the hospital's pockets, and it's anything but true. So those two things that people learn when they're coming from outside healthcare would be a good first lessons, which both of us took a while to get to that point.

Bill Russell: when we met at BJC you know, I was doing some consulting there and two things really struck me. About our time together, and it was pretty brief. I mean, you guys gave me like, you know, two weeks to complete a project that should take like two years [00:03:00] um, which is always a lot of fun.

But the first thing that struck me about you is you always had a smile on your face and it was infectious. And I think the second thing is. you were I put you in the category of philosopher. You had deep thinking around a lot of the stuff that you were doing. It wasn't just, you know, it just nothing with you was just a technology conversation or a workflow conversation.

It's like there was. You know, bill, we have to do this in healthcare. We have to move these things forward. We have to do a better job for I, and it was, I mean, you you always caused me to think one level below where I'm at. now you're at Providence, seven states, 52 hospitals. You have a relationship first philosophy. How do you scale that to 120,000 caregivers without losing that personal touch that I know is so important to you.

cherodeep: I would say, first of all, I've been called many things in life but never a philosopher. So something in the new year to go by. At least a new name. So thank you for that. Back to your question, bill. I think the fundamental dont [00:04:00] change. The care in Montana is no different than the care in California.

And to all our viewers who are listening to this also know that Bill had this role in many different ways as a CIO at St. Joseph's in California years ago, which you and I have joked quite a bit about our similarities

Bill Russell: You're still cleaning up my mess. I got it. I understand.

cherodeep: There is hope in the new. year my friend. There's hope, but it, the fundamentals don't change. Now with size comes complexity. And while I cannot be at every ministry every day out here, it is leading through the team. We have a team of over 3000 caregivers what we call employers, employees as caregivers.

You start showing people the direction and back to that point you made. Why do we do what we do? We can make a better living, in many other industries, but when you come back to the industry of healthcare and everybody has to go to a hospital at some point in their lives, when you tie that back to the mission, you tie that back to rounding on the front lines.

I will tell you, [00:05:00] su success is contagious. And people start understanding what it is. To reduce access when it's over 30 days and just in the last year, we have reduced access by seven days for some of our new patient care or appointments out there. So when you start doing that, people get a purpose and that goes a long way in motivating people when they find a reason in doing what they do.

So that doesn't change.

Bill Russell: alright, so you've been there since since May. Is that

cherodeep: That's right. Yeah.

Bill Russell: All right. So, you know, every organization has. Let's just call it cultural distinctions that maybe don't show up on the brochure. What surprised you most about the Providence culture as you've gotten a chance to be there for these first eight months?

cherodeep: So I'll tell you, it's my first faith-based system that I'm working for. And while both of you, both you and me, have spent enough time in St. Louis that is headquartered to many of the faith-based systems living, living in a faith-based system. Is very different. Every one of our meetings starts with a reflection.

And a reflection is [00:06:00] not to be confused with a prayer. A reflection is something that any of us can bring up an object or a story or something, and we reflect on, and it ties back to the mission that our Sisters of St. Joseph's and Sisters of Providence started 170 years ago. And to this day, we live in that indoctrination of serving those who need our care and attention the most.

That is very in humbling, I would say, and reflection is sometimes it takes 10 minutes, but it sets the tone for the rest of the day, rest of the meeting. And then when you walk the front lines and you see it in practice it's actually, is, it's rewarding. At the end of the day I'll say it that way.

I've worked in academic medical centers, I've worked in other places. This one's different for that purpose out there.

Bill Russell: You know, it's it's terminology means so much as well, by the way I left St. Joe's and started my company, that is the one practice that I brought with me. We do a reflection before every meeting

cherodeep: Very.

Bill Russell: Because it was so impactful to slow. Look, the pace is always going to [00:07:00] be

cherodeep: Mm-hmm.

Bill Russell: matter if it's uw, BJC, it, the pace at healthcare is hectic. And I founded that grounding and also the fact that it's not just the leader who does the reflection. had it's anybody

cherodeep: Everybody. Anybody? Yeah.

Bill Russell: Who's sort of assigned that thing. You know, they will come in and I remember that reflections could be anywhere from, you know, just a famous quote and people dive into it. Something that's motivated you, a story you know, some people share a video and it just, it slows you down and reminds you, oh yeah, there's people coming through our front doors today who. They're bringing a loved one in, this is a really big day for them. So I took that with me, but I think we hear it in the language.

I mean, you said ministries. I started by saying this many hospitals and you didn't correct me. But you essentially said ministries and I remember now that, yeah, they, we did refer to them as ministries. because when they started, they were ministries.

cherodeep: were ministries. Yeah.

Bill Russell: the sisters keep reminding us. It's, there's still ministries, there's people

cherodeep: Right?

Bill Russell: door that we're gonna care for [00:08:00] caregivers is,

cherodeep: Yeah. Yep.

Bill Russell: I think that's one of the ways that faith-based healthcare has impacted the rest of the industry. because I know other organizations now refer to their staff and their employees as caregivers, not just those people who are in the hospital. You know, what are, what's some of the other language that you've heard as you've been there that sort of sets the tone for what you guys about and what you do.

cherodeep: size and complexity is a, brings its own languages. When you're talking 129,000 caregivers, 52 ministries, you just start. Understanding that there are a few more zeros than other places in healthcare that we have talked about. Uh, and, And so that, that's one piece that we, I have learned to appreciate.

Now, thank goodness I had experiences in much larger organizations when I was in telecom and other industries, but it does take a while to get used to. You know, everything is in the billions, not in the millions, including the IT budget. So that's a language in itself. The other one I would say Providence, at least as far as I know, we are probably the only one that runs our [00:09:00] own teams in India uh, our global center.

So, no pun intended, but we do actually speak more than one language when we are at work in across areas. And so I had the privilege of visiting India and it's a whole different world, a whole different language, but serving the same mission. So those are some of the other unique things that I've been experiencing and enjoying in my tenure.

Bill Russell: You know, you started at UW during c. And in one of those interviews you talked about how you like to really interact with the staff and do meet and greet and you did other things to that effect. How does scale impact that? I mean, you, there, there could be a case to be made that you may never meet all of your staff members.

cherodeep: I hope I can prove that wrong, though. I will need a few decades to go through all of that to go through 3000 caregivers on my team. Like I said, I visited India and had a chance to meet almost close to a thousand folks out there. That's a huge team out there. Out here. I've been to quite a few ministries in California, in Portland area and others, and [00:10:00] here trying to start attending those other places.

But we don't have to meet in person all the time. So I'm back to doing my coffee sessions later this month where 10, 15 people just show up open hours and it's sometimes the most energizing conversations. It's, I call them the no agenda meetings in. We can talk about anything as long as we do it with respect.

But once you open your doors, it takes a while. But people walk in as a leader. You've heard me say this before, meet people where they are, not where you are. And so, you know, sometimes Saturday morning, sometimes with a night shift make yourself available and people will show up. So.

Bill Russell: so I've had you on the show. A couple times I've had people from Providence on the show as well. Plus as you pointed out, and I was gonna try to keep secret I was at St. Joe's, which is I think, a number of the, California ministries, the Texas Ministries of of the Providence ministry now.

So I was the CIO there. So I have some background in history, but one of the things I did is I went back and looked at some of the. Conversations we had, [00:11:00] actually, one of the first guests from Providence we had on the show was Rod Hockman, who was the

cherodeep: Oh, okay.

Bill Russell: for the last decade or so at Providence.

Had BJ Moore on the show a couple times. I've had Kevin Manon on the show and, and others. And so I, I went back just to refresh my memory of some of the things. And it's interesting because I want to talk about. Continuity, right? So, BJ Moore, one of the things, he drove home, he was on the show twice and he drove home.

He had a mantra and it was simplify, modernize, innovate. And I don't know if you know this, but you had a mantra when you were on my show and it was three Ws. Do you remember talking about the three Ws,

cherodeep: Yes, sir.

Bill Russell: Workforce, workflow, and wellbeing? I think were the three Ws,

cherodeep: Yeah. Yeah.

Bill Russell: looked at that.

I thought that's interesting. Leaders, and by the way, rod Hockman talked in threes. Like the entire interview was three things. Three things, three things that it sort of struck me. You know, I mean, so, so BJ was a technician. He was an engineer, came from [00:12:00] Microsoft. He was very technical focused.

If people have listened to those shows we really focused on cloud computing and and standardization and all those things. That was a lot of the conversation a lot of the conversation with you and I was. The pragmatic application of technology to the problems that's that face healthcare. I'm curious, you know, as I sort of lay that out of, I had the benefit of looking at all those transcripts and pulling that stuff up. how do you communicate sort of continuity of some of the things that BJ was saying, and then maybe even a divergence into doing some different things.

cherodeep: First of all, bj put a very strong foundation in place, very strong foundation in place in having a solid infrastructure. Always allows you to aspire for bigger and better things because you have the privilege of having a strong foundation. So, taking on, building on that I have my threes.

For Providence and for once. I'm not doing the alteration and going with the same letters, but as we in introduced it to the team I call it [00:13:00] empathy, innovation, and impact. And in the purpose, in the spirit of continuity it starts with empathy. It is again, an industry that is built on the fabric of empathy and the day we stop caring for our patients in our thoughts when they're not in front of us.

We should leave this industry. So that empathy is very important to tying the infrastructure and the back end to the frontline innovation. It's in our blood at Providence. Providence is known in the industry for its innovation. Innovation should not be confused with invention and creation of shiny objects.

Innovation drives change. Innovation is very deliberate, and in the spirit of continuity, I've kept that innovation. DNA from the past leaders out there. And at the end of the day, it does matter about impact. It does matter about outcomes. Sometimes in the spirit of us being data people we can call out statistics, 92.7% out here and 48.3% out there.

Sometimes we [00:14:00] forget that behind each of those numbers. It's a name, a human being a family, and it doesn't matter, 99.7% of the surgical cases were successful. Go talk to the patient who lost, or a family member of a patient that that did not make it through. It's hard. So it does matter with impact because as technology people.

We need to have business outcomes, not just technical outcomes. So those were my three words. Respected, tradition kept the continuity, and then set new horizons for 2026 and beyond.

Bill Russell: Let's talk about innovation. You are absolutely correct. I mean, in the industry, Providence is known for innovation. Sarah. Recently left, but, you know, has a strong legacy there of innovation as well as, you know, it's countless other people, clinicians, and others. One of, one of the quotes I have from you is that, that struck me as I read it again, was innovation without a purpose.

It's just another hobby. that sound like something sound like something you would say?

cherodeep: I would say, I think I need to come up with new [00:15:00] one-liners. Those are probably years ago, but they, I still believe in them. I still believe in, so.

Bill Russell: and I assume you'll have this ability as the CIDO, how do you focus that innovation on what is truly gonna matter to that point of care? To the patient experience, to the patient outcome, to the clinician. I mean, you started this by saying something and I sort of glossed over it.

I wanna come back to it. Reducing access by seven days is. Across a scale of providence is amazing. That's a significant innovation and it may not be like we introduced a new tool and now all of a sudden it's seven days. I'm curious what did drive the seven days?

Is it process? Is it technology? What is it?

cherodeep: It's always all of the above. And to be fair, a lot of the hard work started well before I got here. I just get to be the face among many to take pride in saying we have reduced that by seven days and we look to reduce that to under 25 days by the end of this calendar year. But what it really comes down to, if you think.

back to innovation. It starts with the five whys. You have to go the why, and you have to tie it back. And when you start [00:16:00] doing that again, people use their tools. I use the fishbone diagram tool and I start drawing this out in by the fourth or fifth. Why? You can connect the dots, and most people say this, but they don't understand it.

The other side of innovation is disruption. The technology side of innovation and the big scheme of things is easy. It's easy, but think of amount of stuff that we na introduce in the name of technology that goes out and disrupts. Sometimes adding to the workflow and sometimes unfortunately taking tasks and jobs away out there.

And you have to manage that change management. Very well. because without that innovation becomes the lipstick on a pig. And it becomes successful for 60 days and then as soon as the support system goes away, it crashes and burns. So access was a big deal and across the industry, right? One way to reduce access is to get more providers, but we know that's not happening anytime soon.

So the other way to look at that is how do you take for certain use cases? Take the provider to [00:17:00] meet the patient in the place closest to them in the patient's home virtual care ASC's you know, offsite centers out there in, the strip malls, infusion centers. By doing that, you create a system where the people get to the right place at the right time and don't have to wait too long to get there.

The technology piece assists, but rarely does it become the sort of, the catalyst for the change in these cases.

Bill Russell: The the five why's is interesting to me. I used to do that all the time and it's hard to do it and not annoy people, but, you know, you just get why, you know, it's almost like that little kid, like, why, like why? And then you start backing it up for 'em and saying, the reason I'm asking why is, because you just said we do this.

Why do we do this anymore? like, oh, well this is why we did it. It's like, d do those, does that situation still exist? And a lot of times we're just, we're stream of consciousness. Things just keep going. because there's an inertia to them.

cherodeep: Yep.

Bill Russell: a momentum to 'em that just keeps going and we [00:18:00] never revisit. Some things, and it turns out a lot of times we're collecting information that we don't need anymore. We're doing processes that we don't need anymore, we're doing and so sometimes those things, even though it sounds cliche to do the five why's, really powerful tool to get people to start thinking.

It's like, I don't know why we do that. And you get to that point of going, all right, the, what's the best way to do these things? It's pretty interesting.

cherodeep: And to your point as we keep you know, harping on this one. We don't treat diseases the same way we did 30 years ago. We don't get paid for the diseases the same way as we did 30 years ago. The way we practice medicine in the ED and the OR and other care settings have changed significantly, but the way we deploy technology in healthcare sometimes doesn't change.

And so when you go back to the third, why you sometimes realize that everything else has changed around you, but you're still doing things the same way. And then it becomes the question of why not change? Then the resistance starts fading away. So it sounds much easier when [00:19:00] you and I are talking without being on the front lines, but that's how it works though.

Bill Russell: Yeah. And you know, one of the things I've found interesting and I talked to, I, I don't know if I captured this on the interview, but I talked to Rod Hockman after he did a presentation and I found that anytime you asked him a question, he answered it identically. Like, he had his three points memorized and he answered 'em the same.

I, and I said to Rod, I'm like, rod, you know, you said that last week and you said the exact same words, like, why don't you know, change it up a little bit. And he said, bill, this is one of the, this is one of the things you have to remember about scale. I'm gonna get asked that question at every staff meeting, at every hospital. And if I say it differently. each hospital. They're not, I, you have to create, is there, are there things about scale as a leader that you're either learning or have to figure out how to do a little different than maybe at uw? I.

cherodeep: Definitely I would say this is where my training back when I was at Bell and we operated across 40 [00:20:00] states, comes in handy, right? You have to respect the variations. This is why I don't stay from the, I stay away from the word standard. Standard gets overused the way we do things have to be common. We also have to respect that the differences between Alaska and Texas, we don't speak the same accent.

We don't treat as I said,

Bill Russell: have to tell me. I flew from Southern California to West Texas. They

cherodeep: so, yeah. Yep.

Bill Russell: don't belong here.

cherodeep: So, so those things have to be respected. And keep in mind, we also have a team in India, so you have to respect the culture and the regulations. Regulations are different by state and county too. So standard gets overused that term. So, but at the end of the day, it is what are the non-negotiables?

The non-negotiables are not to be compromised. You have to stick to the script for those things out there, and then you respect the individualities of the organizations, the ministries and things like that. And most people will respect you even if they don't like your answer, but they know you're [00:21:00] transparent and you're not hiding, and you don't have an ulterior motive when you give those hard answers out there.

Bill Russell: I wanna talk about some things with you that'll help maybe other CIOs mean I, I love the conversations we have. I, I wish I could just drop a recorder. the table when we sit around with even with some of the other people that we have conversations with. So here's what I'd love to do. I'd love to throw out some of the things that people are struggling with and just start talking through 'em with you. So, for example everybody's talking about. You know, last year it, it reached a fever pitch, but I think people are gonna realize that was not a fever pitch. This year's gonna be a fever pitch.

It's, it just keeps escalating up. There's a belief that AI is getting to that point of maturity. And we're seeing obviously ambient listening was the first. Let's call it a win. I'm gonna call it a win because we have given people back some time. It may be, may not be a hundred percent adoption, but it's probably one of the few technologies I've heard CIOs over and over again, say, [00:22:00] yes, thank you for this technology.

So. Ambient. We have computer vision starting to take hold, and obviously we have some we have some generative AI models that are starting to get used as well as the countless other ai models that we've had, we've implemented over the decades. You know, there are systems that are still struggling with setting up AI governance and AI strategy, and then there's others that are playing around with it and moving forward. How do you think about that, that, that continuum, if you will. You know, is it how do you make sure that you don't get out over your skis in this process? And then how do you make sure that you don't fall behind as well? I.

cherodeep: I don't know if I have a magic answer because I think we as an industry still have, don't have a common definition for the word ai or the two words, ai, right? Everything under the sun was being called AI at some point, including spell check. So we've gotta.

Bill Russell: magical as they fixed my spelling. What are you talking about?

cherodeep: So I think it goes [00:23:00] back to any other, you know, sort of the flavor of the day. Not so long ago it was blockchain and we were all, you know, pursuing blockchain and the question was, are you doing blockchain or not? Well, why do I need to do blockchain? And nobody at the answer to those five why's out there.

So in that journey, I would say, again, tied back to those purposeful outcomes out there. So in my world, whether it was at Wisconsin or out here. I always go back to where are we doing ai? What are we doing for, so if I'm doing it in an acute care area, how am I doing that? What predictive analyst analytics am I taking to reduce length of state?

I'm just giving you specific examples. You know, what can I do to reduce length of state? What can I do to reduce preventable harms in an ambulatory setting? What can I do for a message driven triage? You said ambient was a win. I really think another huge win. Was in basket fatigue for providers across the country.

And version 1.0 often is not the best version, but version 2.0 never happens unless you go through version 1.0. And so I give a lot of credit to the software [00:24:00] producers across the country, including Epic and including others that said, we are going to use AI to reduce that in basket fatigue. That's been a win, I think in the industry as well.

Another area we don't talk about a lot is aI in the imaging space. We did some fascinating work in early detections for pulmonary embolism and other forms of ICH, which led to not just length of stay, but and prevention of a adverse outcome for the patient. Those are very purposeful when you start going through things.

And then, of course let's not forget the nonclinical side of it. The world of billing, the world of rev cycle. I mean, if someone is not doing AI in those areas, the question is why not? What kind of governance are you waiting for to come and tell you to do it? So whether it's claims, denial, prior auth, you name it, we should be doing that.

Now, what we have started doing out here is building focus and discipline, because that's what comes with a large organization. If everybody has a great idea [00:25:00] and everyone is working on their idea. The reality is at the end of the year, you don't have a lot of good ideas with outcomes. So while there may be 50 ideas, what are the three or four that you say?

Stay the course, deliver them, scale them, and then move on to the next three or four. So those are the centralized big ones that we push. And in the meantime we do incent individual departments to say, do all the AI in your world and come back with efficiency in your own space and return the resources to the organization.

It needs to pay for itself out there. So you have the big AI and the small ai, and that's how we try to cover so.

Bill Russell: I think one of the things I'm gonna tell people this year is nothing's changed. Everything's changed and nothing's changed. We still start with what are we trying to accomplish? What's the problem we're trying to solve? We still start with those things. We still have to have discipline around prioritization, right?

And we still have to be able to say, Hey, because there's gonna be a thousand ways we can apply AI in our health system. [00:26:00] And we don't have the resources to do a thousand we just don't have the resource to do that. So it's gonna be, alright, where are we going to apply these resources? And then I think the other thing is as you said before, it's people process technology and it's still discipline around organizational change management. You could have the best solution proven to work at another health system and still screw it up. Because you still have to have the leadership that understands how to communicate this effectively. Garner a coalition of the willing you your early frontier people who will test it out and clean it up and that kind of stuff. You're still gonna have to deal with you, you know, early adopters, laggards, and

cherodeep: Yeah.

Bill Russell: people along and all that stuff. So while the tool sets have changed. None of the disciplines have changed, really. I mean, we still need governance, we still need prioritization and all those things.

cherodeep: And if I may add to that list here, bill, and knowing you and I have had many offline conversations it, it tends to measure its success with golis. Let's face it, even with [00:27:00] three years now, we've all been doing ambient now for somewhere between three and four years. How many institutions have greater than 80%?

Diffusion of ambient across the book.

Bill Russell: Very few. I. But wouldn't you argue, because I think I'd argue this too, if a, if a physician is more effective without it, I'm not sure I'm gonna force 'em to use it. I really want, I mean, this is one of those tools where I'm sort of sitting there going, yeah, you know what, if you've customized the EHR to your whatever, and it's boom in you're, you know, it's slowing you down, by all means, keep doing what you're doing.

cherodeep: A hundred percent. I mean, at the end of the day, it comes down to the capability. Some people still prefer typing. Some people prefer a scribe. Some people uh, prefer a transcription and some people prefer ambient. Where I'm going is if you look as an industry or saturation beyond primary care family medicine, it's still less than 60% in most cases.

If you start thinking of specialty care, it's still not getting there to that point.

Bill Russell: Right.

cherodeep: Right? And so what does success [00:28:00] look like? You know, if it's not hitting 80% consistently, are we successful? If it's hitting 60%, the grades you and I would get, you know, would be a D or an f. So this is where our partners, the producers of the technology are just as much responsible as we are because we have to have that pipeline of products that goes on and on for that diffusion side of it.

And the ambient of 2026, I believe, is very different than the ambient of 2023 or 2024, because now we are getting into coding in other forms of revenue generation beyond. The provider fatigue aspect, which was version 1.0. So these journeys never end, but we have to keep improving on those to reduce what we call the administrative burden on the health systems.

Bill Russell: I'm trying to remember if you were in the room I think we were talking with with Alistair and some others, and he was talking about using AI for outbound calls.

cherodeep: Mm-hmm.

Bill Russell: And he was talking about a 25 minute call their AI [00:29:00] had with a gentleman who had just lost his wife and it 25 minutes.

Empathetic, still achieved the objective even with objections and whatnot at the end of that 25 minutes. And I think he made the point. That if if a call center agent had spent that much time with a person, they would've missed their metrics and they would be like, put on probation. He goes, but AI does it and who cares? because it's doing 50 other calls at the same time. but I think the thing that amazed me about that was there are use cases I'm not even considering right now that I didn't think AI was ready for. And as you hear that, you start to go, wow, that. You know, that opens up some possibilities.

I'm curious in the call center and whatnot are you thinking about how ai, how are you thinking about maybe how AI gets applied to the call center?

cherodeep: Course.

Bill Russell: like, still have 20 call centers. because I was trying to get rid of the 12 call centers we had at St. Joe's at the time.

It's hard to do

cherodeep: I for the record, the [00:30:00] number is north of 55 0. So, uh, I, unless you're thinking of a different example, the one that I was thinking of when you mentioned that story was actually shared by our friend, Hal Baker. And we will name the, the, the company. But I will tell you that's a use case that I've since.

Taking it to Wisconsin and talking out here with the vendor how to put that. Because that is the perfect the perfect blend of the human in the loop that we often talk about where, because the technology started driving the individual that was, that called in for an oncology appointment, but ended up being more towards a.

Psychological help piece, but it brought in the human in the loop to validate it wasn't going south or things like that, versus sometimes just reading off a script. It was a fascinating use case, which has appealed to me time and again from the time I heard it. Out here we are taking on initiatives like our contact centers and bringing in more automation in the form of ai and with my operational partners who are, I'm really blessed to have them.

They understand that you [00:31:00] can't just map in new technology on not so mature processes and even not so mature data out there. So the cleansing of the data and the process variations are being worked on simultaneously as we are both creating technologies but also partnering with others to put it in the workspace of the call center.

Worlds out here, so.

Bill Russell: there's a fear here that's sort of underneath this AI conversation you know, how is this going to impact our work or, you know, our jobs specifically.

cherodeep: And I worry about that and we may be going down a completely different path over here because when it comes to re-skilling, I do often wonder where does this remote work environment. Going to take us Monday because gone are the times where you can just walk, you know, down the hallway to another person, a colleague, and talk about it and learn a tip or trick, you know, out there.

I don't know if I would be here today if I started my career during the work from home. I'm sure at that point I would've loved it, [00:32:00] enjoyed it. I don't, you know me well enough. I rarely work from home. I love going into work every day, but I do worry about the re-skilling and losing that.

Bill Russell: That was Ja. Jamie Diamond's. Jamie Diamond's. Main point for bringing people back into the office in New York was, he goes, I can't train the next generation unless they're at the elbow and I've gotta have them at the elbow. And I was like,

cherodeep: 100% on that. Yeah.

Bill Russell: wonder if we're gonna get back there in healthcare. I don't know.

cherodeep: I'm doing my part to make sure we get there. Uh, Time will tell whether I'm successful or not. It's important. It's important to build culture out there. You know, something, some things you can't do remote. We are just coming off a holiday season. Well, why do families get around a dinner table for Christmas or Thanksgiving?

You can do it remote. Why do people travel and go through airports to make it all the way It is hard. But that's where tradition, culture, habits, you know, change and um, and prosper. So.

Bill Russell: Let's talk about the patient for a minute. AI in the patient world, it was interesting to watch. The people at OpenAI, right in the middle of their [00:33:00] presentation for rolling out chat, GT five they literally rolled out a use case, a healthcare use case, and people were like, that's irresponsible and whatnot. I, I don't really wanna argue whether AI. Is effectively used by patients or whatnot. Can we just agree? It will be used by patients like it is being used. Like it, it is like, you know, the internet came out and people were like, oh man, they're going out to the internet to find healthcare information.

Of course they're, and then Google came out and they're like, Hey, they're going to Google to find, you know, healthcare information and now chats. PT comes out and they're like, Hey, they're going to AI to find healthcare information. Well, the reason is, because I don't have access to my doctor. 7 24 365 and the three things I just mentioned, I have access to 7 24, 365.

How do you influence that? How do you. you know, you have these markets that you serve, some of which you're the predominant player in those markets. How do you help your patients maybe to be more effective with the tools they have in front of them so that the times that maybe [00:34:00] they can't they're not in front of a clinician they make better choices with regard to their health.

cherodeep: Well, I would say as I settled in Providence, I've also realized that having California Washington, Oregon is three states. I'm also dealing with a community that is extremely tech savvy. Silicon Valley is in my backyard you know, out there. So I would say the more, if you make it harder for the patient to access ai.

They will find workarounds through create Access ai, and then it becomes a bigger problem for you. So there is a day coming, if not already here, where our providers and care teams need to be trained to help having the right conversations with the patients in when to use ai. Versus when to refer to AI and when to call the doctor first.

It's all different forms of accessing it because yeah, you're right. You and I, if we have need something at two o'clock in the morning, we'll probably bring up chat GPT or pick another model of our choice, you know, and look at it. And we are dangerous enough to know the difference. [00:35:00] So avoiding. AI is not the answer to the problem.

I think embracing AI with the right guardrails is the approach to go, and at the same time on our provider side, and I say providers, I'm including all clinicians out here. We have to make it easy to embed AI into their workflow rather than having it as one extra step outside. Because when patients see their providers using ai, they feel comfortable that they can trust the technology out there.

So.

Bill Russell: you know, what are you bullish on at this point as you look across the landscape and its ability to impact any of the quadruple aim.

cherodeep: This is the best time to be in healthcare technology, you know, because we are coming out of the COVID era, so to speak. It still feels odd to refer to it in the past sense. We have technology that has become more affordable. AI has been around forever is the cost of GPUs that have gone down, that has made AI affordable to everyone.

We are also bringing people back into [00:36:00] work, at least some health systems that I know of, including ours, are bringing in. So it's like a 2.0 of grooming, the new um, uh, workforce to come through it. And I think there is also a chip on our shoulder because the rest of the world seems to have written us off that we can't get every anything right.

But we do. But we do, we keep up with regulatory changes. We keep up with cyber issue changes, and we have shown year after year that we have actually reduced preventable harms. We've actually reduced length of stay. We have actually made patient care better, and not just the quantity of years that a person lives, but the quality of life that a person has in their last 20% is much better right now.

We sometimes fail to. Appreciate the wins. We have had our ourselves in an industry, and when you look and you have the wins at our back, I think 26 and beyond is where we start saying we are gonna make the impossible possible out here. So in terms of a single technology, you know, as much as I'm a technology [00:37:00] person, I think in terms of solution, I think if we can reduce the burden of accessibility and affordability together using technology, that to me would be.

Our biggest win in this coming year.

Bill Russell: I'm going to do lightning round here and then we'll close it out. Person you'd most like to have an hour conversation with. We'll start with dead and then you can give me a live as well.

cherodeep: That's an interesting one. My answers have changed over the years, I would say. I would definitely dead. I would definitely, it's a very interesting name. I'll throw Oppenheimer as a student of physics and I, no pun just a coincidence that you have had with Einstein behind you. There. But as as a physicist, that was my first degree of physics.

I was always intrigued and there are times I will say I have compared the era of AI to the era of the. Atomic bomb. There are good users for it and not so good users for it. And of [00:38:00] course since made famous through the movie Oppenheimer. But when you think of the dilemma he went through with his invention and creation out of it, I would've loved to pick his brain and see the lessons learned in terms of one who's still alive.

I'm a big sportsperson and I would definitely like to meet Louis Hamilton, who is a very well known formula One driver.

Bill Russell: one.

cherodeep: And not because of his seven years of being the champion, but with the grace with which he accepted defeat, which I still think the other team cheated for the record, but with the grace with which he accepted defeat.

Still came back the next year. Not just to compete, but be a role model for others to follow. That speaks to me. Volumes of a leader that I'd love to meet in, understand how he operates.

Bill Russell: Have you seen the F1 movie?

cherodeep: I did, I did.

Bill Russell: I also watched all the outtakes, and one of 'em is on his contribution to the movie. [00:39:00] He is a very impressive individual.

cherodeep: Yes. And.

Bill Russell: It, it was, they, at one point they said he was listening and he goes, they're in third gear.

They wouldn't be in third gear in that turn. You need to, and they, and they were trying to be so authentic with the movie, they're like, yes, absolutely. We will adjust that. There was, yep.

cherodeep: I actually have a picture with the actual car that was used in the movie. Thanks to a a friend of mine with connections, let's put it that way. But since we been talking F1 I always say, you know, if you watch a, a surgical case, it is like a Formula One race. There are hundred thousand things that can go wrong, but it takes the sheer grid of individual.

Teamwork, you know, for that hour and 40 minute race, there's a team of thousand people, you know, from the factory to the pit that make the driver looks good. And a surgical case is very much the same it is. It is like an orchestra, but it's actually chaotic when you think of all the things that can go wrong, should go wrong.

And we come out saving lives.

Bill Russell: I'll tell you, she, [00:40:00] there's two things that struck me about that movie. One is the one, the point you just made. Like, I didn't realize during a race, they have like a whole team of people sitting there monitoring like one or two things going, you know, and they make the call back to that room and say, can we pit in under three seconds? And the person's like doing the calculations and going. Yeah, we could do it. I'm like, oh my gosh. Like there's a, you think there's just a driver and a pit crew and No, there's massive, and the other thing that struck me was when she's in the room saying, I'm trying to get you, you know, a 10th of a second, I. Like, I'm trying to get you a 10th of a second on a lap and that kind of stuff. And they're, and I thought, you know, the parallels to healthcare are are pretty significant

cherodeep: Yeah.

Bill Russell: of the complexity that you're talking about and those kinds of things.

cherodeep: and millimeters my friend. That's what healthcare is about. You know, it's between paralysis and a normal life. Milliseconds and millimeters. So,

Bill Russell: movie you saw in a theater.

cherodeep: oh my gosh, you're gonna embarrass me with this one. [00:41:00] So I am not a movie guy and we are in the year 2026, and I think I have been to the theater only once in this millennium.

Slum dog millionaire,

Bill Russell: the that's the direction that we're going, I believe.

cherodeep: slum dog millionaire. So you tell me whatever year that movie came out,

Bill Russell: gosh. Wow.

cherodeep: that's it. I have not been to a theater.

Bill Russell: I, that's that's going back ways. I thought you were gonna say like top gun one or something. I don't know, like 1976. I don't, you know, I go to some of my friends' houses and their TVs are so big. I'm like, why go to a theater?

cherodeep: Go. I'm not a big movie guy, you know, now, so.

Bill Russell: That's that's interesting. Books. Do you get a chance to read books?

cherodeep: Oh, all the time. All the time. Finished, a very interesting novel. It's called Friends Like Us or Someone like Us now. I can't remember the name. It's about a driver from Somalia in New York City and what he has to go through. Fascinating story. Uh, I got,

Bill Russell: how do you deter, determine [00:42:00] what your next book's gonna be?

cherodeep: New York Times list.

Bill Russell: How you

cherodeep: a pretty active group of friends that's in books and references from time to time, a bunch of our share art lists.

But any given time, I'll have three or four books lying around and I won't read all of them at the same time, but but Nick,

Bill Russell: great philosopher would, reads lots of books

cherodeep: here we go. Here we go.

Bill Russell: we've come full circle on the interview. Well, hey I, I appreciate you coming on the show. And sharing your journey so far. And I look forward to many more, conversations over the next couple years. I can't think of anyone.

I'm more excited to have the opportunity to impact communities at the scale that you're impacting at that than you. I'm really I'm excited for you in that role, and I'm excited for the team that you get to work with. And I'm glad that you're one of the people that, the legacy of the small legacy of what I did at St. Joe's is getting passed off to. So

cherodeep: Wow.

Bill Russell: it.

cherodeep: Well, thank you and thanks as [00:43:00] always for having me on your show. And I truly appreciate what you're doing for the community of us. It's lonely out there as your line goes. It's lonely out there and knowing that we are all one call away makes it a lot easier. So

Bill Russell: Absolutely. Well, take care my friend.

cherodeep: take care. See ya. Bye.

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