1 00:00:00,709 --> 00:00:04,129 I do think that we have to be careful in interacting 2 00:00:04,129 --> 00:00:09,175 with people, that we don't become the judges of their eternal condition 3 00:00:09,175 --> 00:00:12,178 or destiny, that's God's work and... 4 00:00:12,679 --> 00:00:16,266 However, it is right for us to call people 5 00:00:16,266 --> 00:00:20,770 toward genuine faith, toward saying, I really do 6 00:00:20,770 --> 00:00:25,275 believe in Jesus and faith is acting according to realities 7 00:00:25,275 --> 00:00:26,276 that we can't see. 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,909 So, happy to have John Coblentz, 9 00:00:34,909 --> 00:00:38,955 join us, to talk about issues related to salvation. 10 00:00:38,955 --> 00:00:42,584 And can I lose my ticket to heaven? 11 00:00:43,460 --> 00:00:45,295 we'll see what he says about that. 12 00:00:45,295 --> 00:00:48,214 John, could you begin just a short introduction 13 00:00:48,214 --> 00:00:51,217 to who you are and your work? 14 00:00:51,301 --> 00:00:56,097 yes. John Coblentz, I serve at, Faith builders Educational programs. 15 00:00:56,097 --> 00:00:59,100 I have been there for, I’m in my 18th year, 16 00:00:59,225 --> 00:01:03,021 serving as campus pastor and instructor. 17 00:01:03,730 --> 00:01:07,734 the last couple of years, I've given off some of my classes to younger ones. 18 00:01:07,734 --> 00:01:11,446 I'm getting older, but have really enjoyed the opportunity 19 00:01:11,446 --> 00:01:15,325 to, study, to learn, teach there, 20 00:01:15,366 --> 00:01:18,745 with the students and staff at Faith builders. 21 00:01:19,579 --> 00:01:20,497 Yeah. 22 00:01:20,497 --> 00:01:23,333 And one of the products of some of that study 23 00:01:23,333 --> 00:01:26,419 is, your book, God's Glory in the church. 24 00:01:26,503 --> 00:01:29,506 devotional commentary on Ephesians. 25 00:01:29,756 --> 00:01:32,759 and I want to start with a quote from that. 26 00:01:33,343 --> 00:01:37,013 So you write, “Much misunderstanding 27 00:01:37,013 --> 00:01:40,058 results from speaking of salvation as a single event. 28 00:01:40,100 --> 00:01:43,686 When we made a decision or we went forward 29 00:01:43,686 --> 00:01:47,148 in response to an invitation or prayed the sinner's prayer. 30 00:01:48,274 --> 00:01:50,527 with this limited point in time understanding, 31 00:01:50,527 --> 00:01:54,447 we can be misled to think of salvation as a ticket we receive, 32 00:01:55,115 --> 00:01:58,868 as something that we can then argue about whether or not we can lose it.” 33 00:02:00,161 --> 00:02:03,164 so what I hear you saying is. 34 00:02:04,457 --> 00:02:06,960 This way of thinking about salvation leads us to thinking about 35 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,797 we get a ticket, you know, admission ticket to heaven or something like that. 36 00:02:11,798 --> 00:02:13,675 And we start to argue, you know, can we lose it? 37 00:02:13,675 --> 00:02:14,926 Can we not lose it? 38 00:02:14,926 --> 00:02:18,179 what's wrong with the ticket metaphor? 39 00:02:18,304 --> 00:02:21,307 Why is this a bad way to think about it? 40 00:02:21,516 --> 00:02:25,937 Yes. Well, the saving work of God is a, 41 00:02:26,479 --> 00:02:30,859 is not something that He does at a particular point, 42 00:02:30,859 --> 00:02:37,615 but it's a continuing work within us, and it is a actually a union with the savior. 43 00:02:37,699 --> 00:02:41,411 John writes, he who has the Son of God 44 00:02:41,411 --> 00:02:44,956 has life, and he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 45 00:02:45,957 --> 00:02:49,919 So God's saving work is not something 46 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:56,217 that I can hold, in my hands or, a record of something. 47 00:02:56,259 --> 00:03:02,432 It's actually a work that God is doing as I trust him, as I put my faith in Jesus. 48 00:03:02,432 --> 00:03:06,686 And it's the saving of us that is both 49 00:03:06,769 --> 00:03:11,107 something that He has done and is doing and will do in our lives. 50 00:03:11,107 --> 00:03:13,818 It's a continuing work. 51 00:03:13,818 --> 00:03:17,405 So I could imagine someone saying that 52 00:03:17,447 --> 00:03:21,159 yes, they agree that this is, you know, God keeps working on us, but, 53 00:03:22,785 --> 00:03:25,914 you know, there's something very special about the beginning when we go from 54 00:03:27,290 --> 00:03:29,042 God's enemy to God's friend. 55 00:03:29,042 --> 00:03:30,418 And yes, He needs to keep doing more. 56 00:03:30,418 --> 00:03:33,421 But, you know, we've made the jump. 57 00:03:34,047 --> 00:03:35,798 And so 58 00:03:35,798 --> 00:03:39,052 maybe they'd feel like the way you frame it, 59 00:03:40,428 --> 00:03:42,096 you know, downplays that, 60 00:03:42,096 --> 00:03:46,184 that jump too much or that adoption, 61 00:03:48,478 --> 00:03:48,978 Because I don't know. 62 00:03:48,978 --> 00:03:51,981 Would that again lead back toward more thinking of, 63 00:03:52,899 --> 00:03:54,192 you know, well, I got saved. 64 00:03:54,192 --> 00:03:57,195 Can I be unsaved or not unsaved? 65 00:03:57,737 --> 00:04:00,031 Yes. Well, different analogies 66 00:04:00,031 --> 00:04:03,534 are used in the scripture to understand, salvation. 67 00:04:03,534 --> 00:04:05,036 Birth is one. 68 00:04:05,036 --> 00:04:10,667 redemption is another, deliverance from, 69 00:04:11,209 --> 00:04:16,464 slavery, deliverance from prison, getting, being freed. 70 00:04:16,464 --> 00:04:18,716 The different analogies are used. 71 00:04:18,716 --> 00:04:23,263 and, God does bring us to life, 72 00:04:23,263 --> 00:04:26,266 but he brings us to life through faith in Jesus. 73 00:04:26,641 --> 00:04:29,269 And I think it's 74 00:04:29,269 --> 00:04:31,604 a wrong way of understanding to assume 75 00:04:31,604 --> 00:04:35,024 that an experience is what it's all about, 76 00:04:35,024 --> 00:04:38,027 a particular experience in my life. It's 77 00:04:38,319 --> 00:04:40,780 as we trust in him. 78 00:04:40,780 --> 00:04:45,159 And the scriptures indicate that, you know, God is the Savior. 79 00:04:45,159 --> 00:04:47,829 But we must believe in order for that to happen. 80 00:04:47,829 --> 00:04:49,247 Faith is necessary. 81 00:04:49,247 --> 00:04:51,624 And what I would understand the scriptures to teach is that 82 00:04:52,709 --> 00:04:53,835 just as 83 00:04:53,835 --> 00:04:57,630 we can come into the life of God through faith, 84 00:04:57,964 --> 00:05:01,926 we can turn away from God through unbelief. 85 00:05:01,926 --> 00:05:03,553 So resorting to unbelief. 86 00:05:03,553 --> 00:05:08,349 And there's no assurance in the New Testament for people who live in unbelief. 87 00:05:08,808 --> 00:05:12,937 And so the necessity is for us to continue in faith. 88 00:05:13,896 --> 00:05:18,151 And He continues in His saving work as we continue in faith 89 00:05:18,151 --> 00:05:23,906 and do not resort again, to unbelief, to a life of unbelief. 90 00:05:23,906 --> 00:05:26,909 So Paul writes about those who, 91 00:05:27,410 --> 00:05:29,996 have made shipwreck of their faith. 92 00:05:29,996 --> 00:05:35,168 There's that language in Scripture of falling away. 93 00:05:35,168 --> 00:05:38,046 And so there is that potential. 94 00:05:38,046 --> 00:05:41,924 And I must not assume that a particular thing I did in the past, 95 00:05:42,300 --> 00:05:45,261 will take care of a life 96 00:05:45,261 --> 00:05:48,639 of turning away from God or unbelief. 97 00:05:50,933 --> 00:05:51,684 The reality 98 00:05:51,684 --> 00:05:54,854 is that this doesn't mean that we are, 99 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,691 that our salvation depends on our perfect... 100 00:05:58,691 --> 00:06:03,071 life of righteousness. 101 00:06:03,237 --> 00:06:06,616 We're saved because of the righteousness of Christ and His works 102 00:06:06,991 --> 00:06:13,331 and so it's not our works that save us, but our continued faith. 103 00:06:13,331 --> 00:06:15,875 That is an active faith. 104 00:06:15,875 --> 00:06:18,878 And he continues to save us then. 105 00:06:19,212 --> 00:06:19,712 Yeah. 106 00:06:19,712 --> 00:06:22,882 So you said there's different analogies that help with different things. 107 00:06:23,216 --> 00:06:27,470 So as soon as you said that, my mind went to the analogy of the seed 108 00:06:27,470 --> 00:06:30,473 and the plant, because 109 00:06:31,641 --> 00:06:33,267 think about the parable of the sower. 110 00:06:33,267 --> 00:06:36,145 The seed is the word of God. 111 00:06:36,145 --> 00:06:38,064 And you know, it talks about stony ground. 112 00:06:38,064 --> 00:06:41,067 It talks about that seed did start growing. 113 00:06:41,192 --> 00:06:44,195 There was life coming from the Word of God. 114 00:06:44,195 --> 00:06:44,695 And then it, 115 00:06:45,822 --> 00:06:48,825 you know, the faith wasn't there. 116 00:06:48,825 --> 00:06:51,828 in trial when the life disappeared 117 00:06:51,869 --> 00:06:55,623 or the life started growing, and then it was choked out 118 00:06:56,666 --> 00:07:00,628 by thorns and thistles and so on, and, 119 00:07:01,629 --> 00:07:04,424 that's another interesting metaphor. 120 00:07:04,424 --> 00:07:08,386 But yeah, with this issue of assurance and that kind of one time experience, 121 00:07:08,970 --> 00:07:11,973 now I've also known people. 122 00:07:13,015 --> 00:07:16,018 And yeah, one person in particular where, 123 00:07:17,854 --> 00:07:21,023 you know, they had such a framework of there's this one, 124 00:07:21,065 --> 00:07:25,111 there's this experience, there's a thing I can point to where it happened. 125 00:07:26,487 --> 00:07:28,656 And then, 126 00:07:28,656 --> 00:07:32,201 you know, for many years kept coming back to struggle with that 127 00:07:32,201 --> 00:07:35,204 because it's like, well, did it happen Right? 128 00:07:35,204 --> 00:07:37,832 Did I get the right thing? Did I really believe? 129 00:07:37,832 --> 00:07:39,959 Was I really born again? 130 00:07:39,959 --> 00:07:44,380 And I think if I hear you right, you want to say 131 00:07:44,380 --> 00:07:48,634 with a fuller understanding of salvation, we can address some of that worry about, 132 00:07:50,178 --> 00:07:50,678 did the right 133 00:07:50,678 --> 00:07:53,681 thing happen at a certain time? 134 00:07:53,890 --> 00:07:58,311 Yes. And even in my own experience, I remember early on with, 135 00:07:58,811 --> 00:08:05,193 I think we have absorbed some of that emphasis 136 00:08:05,193 --> 00:08:09,739 on needing a particular point in time radical change. 137 00:08:10,448 --> 00:08:13,075 I remember 138 00:08:13,075 --> 00:08:16,078 personally struggling because the reality is that, 139 00:08:16,162 --> 00:08:21,125 we often come to God initially with only partial understanding, 140 00:08:21,125 --> 00:08:25,087 sometimes, fairly young, 141 00:08:26,255 --> 00:08:28,966 only later we come to understand, 142 00:08:28,966 --> 00:08:32,428 things about Jesus or what it means to follow him. 143 00:08:33,012 --> 00:08:34,722 And so, 144 00:08:34,722 --> 00:08:39,143 I personally struggled with that and then thinking, well, 145 00:08:39,143 --> 00:08:42,021 maybe I need to do it again to be sure 146 00:08:42,021 --> 00:08:44,857 that I've done it right or that I am a believer. 147 00:08:44,857 --> 00:08:47,735 And, it's a misunderstanding. 148 00:08:47,735 --> 00:08:51,822 our salvation is not dependent on a particular formula 149 00:08:51,822 --> 00:08:53,741 or way that we did it or whatever. 150 00:08:53,741 --> 00:08:55,159 It's in coming to Jesus. 151 00:08:55,159 --> 00:08:56,994 It's in trusting Him. 152 00:08:56,994 --> 00:09:01,040 And as I trust in Him that the God does His saving work. 153 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,960 The saving work is God's work. 154 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:05,795 I can't save myself. 155 00:09:05,795 --> 00:09:10,883 I'm trusting in Him, and it's not in a well, did I do it quite right? 156 00:09:10,883 --> 00:09:13,469 And we can have these four steps that we have to go through. 157 00:09:13,469 --> 00:09:14,595 And the reality is that God 158 00:09:14,595 --> 00:09:17,807 might bring us in having done step three first or something. 159 00:09:18,933 --> 00:09:19,475 it's not 160 00:09:19,475 --> 00:09:23,271 always, I read about people's stories and how they come to God. 161 00:09:23,271 --> 00:09:27,024 An it's amazing how different it can be for people. 162 00:09:27,024 --> 00:09:30,403 But when their trust is in Jesus, there is our security. 163 00:09:30,945 --> 00:09:32,863 He is our security. 164 00:09:32,863 --> 00:09:34,865 Yeah. 165 00:09:34,865 --> 00:09:37,785 So thinking about your, 166 00:09:37,785 --> 00:09:39,829 again a couple topics from Ephesians, 167 00:09:39,829 --> 00:09:42,832 again relate to this thing of, 168 00:09:42,957 --> 00:09:45,251 you know, security assurance. 169 00:09:45,251 --> 00:09:49,005 so Ephesians chapter one talks about the Holy Spirit 170 00:09:49,005 --> 00:09:52,008 being a seal, 171 00:09:52,425 --> 00:09:56,429 for believers and also talks about it being, 172 00:09:56,429 --> 00:10:01,142 at least in some translations use the word, you know, a guarantee. 173 00:10:01,601 --> 00:10:04,353 until the day of redemption. 174 00:10:04,353 --> 00:10:08,316 would you want to talk about that picture or those pictures a little bit? 175 00:10:09,567 --> 00:10:14,363 yes. Just a beautiful, analogy that is used there. 176 00:10:14,363 --> 00:10:16,073 We don't use seals today. 177 00:10:16,073 --> 00:10:21,120 A stamp, but it indicates ownership and, we belong. 178 00:10:21,787 --> 00:10:24,624 And one of the beautiful things about, 179 00:10:24,624 --> 00:10:30,713 coming to life in Jesus is, the work of the Holy Spirit within us, 180 00:10:30,713 --> 00:10:35,468 in which He regenerates us and begins to produce in us the life of Jesus. 181 00:10:36,093 --> 00:10:39,263 And, so the scriptures warn 182 00:10:39,263 --> 00:10:42,433 us against things like grieving the Holy Spirit 183 00:10:42,433 --> 00:10:47,772 or doing things against his work, stifling, the work of the Holy Spirit. 184 00:10:48,230 --> 00:10:49,732 And so, 185 00:10:50,775 --> 00:10:53,152 this is actually 186 00:10:53,152 --> 00:10:58,157 something that is very assuring, and we can, trust again 187 00:10:58,157 --> 00:11:02,578 that God is, by giving us His Holy Spirit, making us His sons and daughters. 188 00:11:02,578 --> 00:11:04,830 He's actually 189 00:11:04,830 --> 00:11:06,123 calling us His own. 190 00:11:06,123 --> 00:11:09,126 And it's so assuring, for us. 191 00:11:09,251 --> 00:11:12,588 But then we must not take that as, 192 00:11:12,922 --> 00:11:16,050 well that gives me liberty to live however I want. 193 00:11:16,550 --> 00:11:20,638 that would grieve His Holy Spirit and could stifle His work. 194 00:11:20,638 --> 00:11:24,558 within us and shortchange what God actually intends 195 00:11:24,558 --> 00:11:27,561 to accomplish by His spirit within us. 196 00:11:28,854 --> 00:11:31,190 Yeah so, and you used the word stamp 197 00:11:31,190 --> 00:11:35,569 for the seal, which I find really helpful because, 198 00:11:36,779 --> 00:11:38,614 you know, in our current context 199 00:11:38,614 --> 00:11:41,617 we can hear seal and we think about, 200 00:11:41,784 --> 00:11:44,662 you know, sealing a bag so nothing gets in and out 201 00:11:44,662 --> 00:11:47,790 or sealing a can or something. 202 00:11:49,458 --> 00:11:50,334 and I don't know, it seems 203 00:11:50,334 --> 00:11:53,337 like that sometimes plays into, 204 00:11:54,714 --> 00:11:57,842 that kind of thinking of unconditional, eternal security. 205 00:11:57,842 --> 00:11:59,427 It's like, well, 206 00:11:59,427 --> 00:12:02,972 God put you in the can and sealed it shut, so you're not going to get back out 207 00:12:02,972 --> 00:12:04,181 or something. 208 00:12:04,181 --> 00:12:08,436 But the image is actually the stamp, the identifying stamp placed on, 209 00:12:09,437 --> 00:12:12,440 the spirit showing that you belong to God. 210 00:12:12,565 --> 00:12:12,898 Yeah. 211 00:12:12,898 --> 00:12:16,986 And then the Holy Spirit as a also a guarantee 212 00:12:17,987 --> 00:12:20,990 of our inheritance, until the redemption. 213 00:12:21,449 --> 00:12:22,533 yeah. 214 00:12:22,533 --> 00:12:24,493 What's in that word? 215 00:12:24,493 --> 00:12:27,204 Yeah, I think it is the again, it's 216 00:12:27,204 --> 00:12:31,459 that assurance that God will carry forward his work. 217 00:12:31,542 --> 00:12:37,131 and it's, it is, the sense there, 218 00:12:37,131 --> 00:12:41,343 if I recall the wording in the Greek 219 00:12:41,343 --> 00:12:45,598 there would be, this idea of a down payment or first, 220 00:12:47,183 --> 00:12:50,102 which guarantees the remainder to follow. 221 00:12:50,102 --> 00:12:51,937 So God isn't going to abandon us. 222 00:12:51,937 --> 00:12:53,606 He's not going to abandon His project. 223 00:12:53,606 --> 00:12:55,733 And really, the setting there. 224 00:12:55,733 --> 00:12:59,069 All of the objects of the verbs are actually plural. 225 00:12:59,069 --> 00:13:04,074 So it's actually not just individually, but it's this assembly 226 00:13:04,074 --> 00:13:07,828 that He’s gathering, He has poured out his Holy Spirit. 227 00:13:07,828 --> 00:13:11,624 He has given as the guarantee He's going to carry forward His work, 228 00:13:11,874 --> 00:13:15,085 which relates to this whole thing about the imperfections 229 00:13:15,085 --> 00:13:18,088 that we have and that our, the church has. 230 00:13:18,380 --> 00:13:20,466 God isn't going to just abandon this. 231 00:13:20,466 --> 00:13:23,844 He’s guaranteed that He's going to carry forward His work. 232 00:13:25,221 --> 00:13:25,513 Yeah. 233 00:13:25,513 --> 00:13:28,516 And I was thinking about that as it relates to, 234 00:13:28,891 --> 00:13:33,771 the question, you know, can we fall away or whatever? 235 00:13:34,271 --> 00:13:37,858 so I'm actually in the interesting situation 236 00:13:37,858 --> 00:13:42,404 right now of having a property under contract and having put down 237 00:13:42,404 --> 00:13:45,866 one of those deposits to show that I'm, you know, going to go through with, 238 00:13:46,534 --> 00:13:47,576 the transaction. 239 00:13:49,662 --> 00:13:52,540 and there's a couple things about it, but 240 00:13:52,540 --> 00:13:55,543 that doesn't mean that it will be impossible for the seller to default, 241 00:13:56,043 --> 00:13:58,754 even if my guarantee is there. 242 00:13:58,754 --> 00:14:03,551 And in fact, there are certain contingencies on that offer as well that. 243 00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:07,513 Could fail to be met. 244 00:14:08,347 --> 00:14:08,639 yeah. 245 00:14:08,639 --> 00:14:11,642 I do want to think a little bit about, 246 00:14:12,351 --> 00:14:15,521 you know, people who say they're not walking with God now, 247 00:14:15,521 --> 00:14:18,524 but they look to conversion in the past and say, 248 00:14:19,149 --> 00:14:23,195 you know, I've been saved and I can't be unsaved 249 00:14:23,195 --> 00:14:26,198 or whatever. 250 00:14:27,157 --> 00:14:29,910 maybe on the way to that, 251 00:14:29,910 --> 00:14:32,913 these words are the seal and a guarantee. 252 00:14:33,122 --> 00:14:36,000 So they show up in Ephesians one, 253 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,421 and then in Ephesians five, there's again a reference. 254 00:14:40,421 --> 00:14:41,255 You mentioned it. 255 00:14:41,255 --> 00:14:44,258 Don't grieve the spirit by which you have been sealed. 256 00:14:44,884 --> 00:14:49,972 but I remember one English translation actually took the guarantee language 257 00:14:51,056 --> 00:14:55,352 from chapter one and put it in chapter 258 00:14:55,352 --> 00:14:58,856 five and said, in effect, don't grieve the Holy Spirit. 259 00:14:59,231 --> 00:15:02,359 You've been sealed by the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing that you will be 260 00:15:02,359 --> 00:15:05,362 saved on the day of redemption. 261 00:15:06,196 --> 00:15:08,490 and it just struck me as changing the meaning 262 00:15:08,490 --> 00:15:11,493 of that down payment to more like the, 263 00:15:11,535 --> 00:15:14,622 well, here's an unconditional guarantee that you'll be found saved 264 00:15:15,873 --> 00:15:18,792 at the final judgment. 265 00:15:18,792 --> 00:15:21,337 and I hear you saying no, 266 00:15:21,337 --> 00:15:23,631 the guarantee is God will carry forward His part. 267 00:15:23,631 --> 00:15:26,800 It's not that it's going to keep us from 268 00:15:28,427 --> 00:15:31,096 walking away. 269 00:15:31,096 --> 00:15:32,514 So, yeah, either 270 00:15:32,514 --> 00:15:36,018 if you have thoughts on that or just in general, 271 00:15:37,728 --> 00:15:40,731 you know, how should this lead us? 272 00:15:41,398 --> 00:15:44,401 maybe you're talking to somebody who 273 00:15:45,319 --> 00:15:48,030 feels like, yeah, I've been saved. 274 00:15:48,030 --> 00:15:51,700 I'm a Christian, but does not seem to be walking with God. 275 00:15:53,911 --> 00:15:56,664 how should we think about that? 276 00:15:56,664 --> 00:16:00,084 I do think that we have to be careful in interacting 277 00:16:00,084 --> 00:16:05,005 with people, that we don't become the judges of their eternal... 278 00:16:06,423 --> 00:16:09,051 condition or destiny, that's God's work. 279 00:16:09,051 --> 00:16:14,848 And, however, it is right for us to call people 280 00:16:14,848 --> 00:16:20,270 toward genuine faith, toward saying, I really do believe in Jesus. 281 00:16:20,270 --> 00:16:24,733 And, faith is acting according to realities that we can't see. 282 00:16:25,192 --> 00:16:29,279 We come to God, he who comes to God must believe that He is. 283 00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:31,740 And that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. 284 00:16:31,740 --> 00:16:36,495 So faith is actively, ordering our lives 285 00:16:36,495 --> 00:16:40,958 by what we, unseen realities, that we trust in, that we believe. 286 00:16:40,958 --> 00:16:46,714 And you know, James talks about it, a faith that is dead, that it's just a 287 00:16:47,131 --> 00:16:51,844 verbal assent or mental assent, but not necessarily a life assent. 288 00:16:51,844 --> 00:16:55,931 And, and so it needs to be an active faith. 289 00:16:56,557 --> 00:16:59,518 And if I'm simply trusting in an experience, really 290 00:16:59,643 --> 00:17:02,646 the unconditional eternal security 291 00:17:02,980 --> 00:17:06,358 way of thinking is fairly, is relatively recent 292 00:17:06,650 --> 00:17:10,821 in church theology, the earlier, 293 00:17:10,821 --> 00:17:13,991 Calvin would have taught perseverance of the saints 294 00:17:14,575 --> 00:17:17,786 in which he would have understood 295 00:17:17,786 --> 00:17:21,373 that the proof of your election is that you will persevere. 296 00:17:22,249 --> 00:17:27,171 it was not that, you will automatically persevere, 297 00:17:27,171 --> 00:17:31,925 but that if you are elect, the proof of that is in your perseverance. 298 00:17:32,551 --> 00:17:36,555 with the revivalist movement, it shifted more toward 299 00:17:36,555 --> 00:17:40,934 an understanding that my security depends on this point in time 300 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,146 where I made a profession of faith, 301 00:17:44,146 --> 00:17:47,691 I received Jesus, and now nothing that I do can change that. 302 00:17:48,233 --> 00:17:49,193 And Calvin, 303 00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:52,071 the older understanding was 304 00:17:52,071 --> 00:17:55,657 that, no, the proof that you actually are, 305 00:17:55,991 --> 00:17:58,994 God's is that, God's own, 306 00:17:58,994 --> 00:18:02,039 God's elect is that you continue in the faith. 307 00:18:02,831 --> 00:18:07,211 And, so this understanding that no matter what we do, 308 00:18:07,252 --> 00:18:10,255 we can't be unborn or 309 00:18:10,297 --> 00:18:13,300 we can't lose our, salvation 310 00:18:13,801 --> 00:18:17,179 is, Really can, I think. 311 00:18:17,179 --> 00:18:22,559 And in it’s worst sense, it can give people a false assurance. 312 00:18:22,976 --> 00:18:25,687 many people I want to say this, many people 313 00:18:25,687 --> 00:18:29,858 who believe in unconditionally eternal security are Bible believing, 314 00:18:29,858 --> 00:18:34,488 Jesus loving people and I don't judge them. 315 00:18:34,488 --> 00:18:39,409 But I am concerned about those people who may, live in sin, 316 00:18:39,409 --> 00:18:42,162 but trust in an experience a former experience, 317 00:18:42,162 --> 00:18:45,707 and they really don't have intention of following Jesus at this point. 318 00:18:45,707 --> 00:18:50,462 But trusting that experience and that to me would be a false security. 319 00:18:51,338 --> 00:18:52,673 Yeah. Yeah. 320 00:18:52,673 --> 00:18:54,550 Both of those are helpful. So you again, 321 00:18:56,343 --> 00:18:56,677 you're not 322 00:18:56,677 --> 00:18:59,847 saying that there's not many people of strong faith 323 00:18:59,847 --> 00:19:03,350 who hold the doctrine of eternal security 324 00:19:04,268 --> 00:19:06,645 or unconditional eternal security. 325 00:19:06,645 --> 00:19:10,816 but just pointing out the danger that 326 00:19:12,317 --> 00:19:14,528 will often go with it. 327 00:19:14,528 --> 00:19:14,695 Yeah. 328 00:19:14,695 --> 00:19:18,157 And also to distinguish again between the Calvinist position 329 00:19:19,032 --> 00:19:22,578 that, you know, the elect will persevere in faith 330 00:19:24,037 --> 00:19:26,081 and the 331 00:19:26,081 --> 00:19:29,293 doctrine of, you know, unconditional, eternal security, which is I don't know, 332 00:19:30,502 --> 00:19:33,338 is it more like, well, you're saved whether or not you persevere in faith? 333 00:19:33,338 --> 00:19:36,341 Essentially yes. 334 00:19:37,050 --> 00:19:37,384 yeah. 335 00:19:37,384 --> 00:19:38,760 Thanks for that. 336 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,763 anything else you'd like to share on 337 00:19:42,890 --> 00:19:46,351 this idea of, you know, related to assurance of salvation? 338 00:19:46,351 --> 00:19:49,563 How we think about salvation and the ticket to heaven? 339 00:19:50,856 --> 00:19:54,651 I am grateful, actually, among a number of evangelical writers 340 00:19:54,651 --> 00:19:59,448 and teachers and so on, that there has been a significant, teaching. 341 00:19:59,990 --> 00:20:03,994 against this, maybe almost flippant. 342 00:20:04,244 --> 00:20:05,245 I had an experience. 343 00:20:05,245 --> 00:20:10,792 So no matter how I live, and I think of, Dallas Willard used a different analogy. 344 00:20:10,792 --> 00:20:12,878 He talks about barcode Christians. 345 00:20:12,878 --> 00:20:18,300 Where simply, you're kind of stamped and then, and lamented that, 346 00:20:18,425 --> 00:20:22,304 many people in, evangelical circles, simply 347 00:20:22,304 --> 00:20:26,183 are trusting a particular experience, but they're really not following Jesus. 348 00:20:26,725 --> 00:20:29,228 And, so there are a number of, 349 00:20:29,228 --> 00:20:35,067 authors and teachers that have really pushed against that 350 00:20:35,067 --> 00:20:38,320 and called their people to follow Jesus in, 351 00:20:39,321 --> 00:20:40,697 by their lives. 352 00:20:40,697 --> 00:20:43,700 And again, I, for, 353 00:20:45,953 --> 00:20:48,956 The issue of our salvation is not. 354 00:20:49,539 --> 00:20:52,417 Or the experience of our salvation is not dependent 355 00:20:52,417 --> 00:20:55,587 upon us having a complete or full understanding of it. 356 00:20:55,587 --> 00:20:58,757 It's a work of God, and it's always in some sense 357 00:20:58,757 --> 00:21:03,011 a mystery that is, beyond our full understanding. 358 00:21:03,011 --> 00:21:07,140 And it's more important that we love Jesus and know Him and follow Him than that 359 00:21:07,140 --> 00:21:10,227 we can explain it exactly, correctly. 360 00:21:11,311 --> 00:21:14,189 Yes. Amen. 361 00:21:14,189 --> 00:21:14,606 Yeah. 362 00:21:14,606 --> 00:21:15,899 Thank you John. 363 00:21:16,942 --> 00:21:20,362 I hope John's words were encouraging to you. 364 00:21:22,030 --> 00:21:24,241 we also did an interview with Daniel 365 00:21:24,241 --> 00:21:27,411 Yoder, called am I a believer? 366 00:21:27,411 --> 00:21:29,329 Where he talks about doubt is not sin. 367 00:21:29,329 --> 00:21:31,081 It is a temptation. 368 00:21:31,081 --> 00:21:35,544 so that can also be a source of encouragement. 369 00:21:35,752 --> 00:21:38,547 if you are thinking 370 00:21:38,547 --> 00:21:41,550 about issues of assurance or faith, 371 00:21:41,550 --> 00:21:46,013 you can find that linked in the show notes, for this episode. 372 00:21:47,389 --> 00:21:48,056 you can also check 373 00:21:48,056 --> 00:21:51,059 out our website, anabaptistperspectives.org 374 00:21:51,143 --> 00:21:53,812 for a wide range of content, video, 375 00:21:53,812 --> 00:21:56,898 audio, as well as, written essays. 376 00:21:57,941 --> 00:21:59,401 And thank you for watching. 377 00:28:05,725 --> 00:28:06,518 Yeah. 378 00:28:06,518 --> 00:28:06,851 Yeah. 379 00:28:06,851 --> 00:28:09,938 So could you clarify then you said the subjects. 380 00:28:10,522 --> 00:28:11,523 Sorry. 381 00:28:11,523 --> 00:28:12,315 Yeah, yeah. 382 00:28:12,315 --> 00:28:12,774 See clarify. 383 00:28:12,774 --> 00:28:15,777 So the objects of these verbs are plural. 384 00:28:16,403 --> 00:28:19,406 us what do you mean by that? 385 00:28:22,033 --> 00:28:27,247 yes. So in chapter one, he talks about, us, 386 00:28:27,497 --> 00:28:30,500 being chosen in him. 387 00:28:32,085 --> 00:28:35,088 we are accepted, in the beloved, 388 00:28:35,839 --> 00:28:40,385 all the all the objects of the verbs are for which he predestined us. 389 00:28:40,385 --> 00:28:46,641 It's he's already marked out the destiny of his of those who are in Jesus. 390 00:28:47,267 --> 00:28:49,811 And so, 391 00:28:49,811 --> 00:28:52,814 there certainly is is a personal dimension to that. 392 00:28:52,856 --> 00:28:55,984 God calls us and he chooses us. 393 00:28:55,984 --> 00:29:01,030 And, so, so there's a personal dimension, but it is actually, 394 00:29:01,114 --> 00:29:05,452 beautiful to see that he's talking there in Ephesians one about this 395 00:29:05,452 --> 00:29:09,622 assembly that he is he is gathering together 396 00:29:09,622 --> 00:29:14,294 and is already, our destination has already determined. 397 00:29:14,294 --> 00:29:19,966 It's it's, it's for his glory then, that he is doing this, again. 398 00:29:19,966 --> 00:29:22,218 It's it's the it's the corporate 399 00:29:22,218 --> 00:29:26,890 which has the individual dimension as well that we are chosen in him. 400 00:29:27,974 --> 00:29:28,516 Yeah. 401 00:29:28,516 --> 00:29:31,478 Thanks. 402 00:33:01,270 --> 00:33:02,605 We can be misled. 403 00:33:02,605 --> 00:33:05,608 To think of salvation as a ticket we receive. 404 00:33:05,608 --> 00:33:09,028 As something that we can then argue about whether or not we can lose it. 405 00:33:10,571 --> 00:33:14,409 John Coblentz writes that in his commentary on Ephesians 406 00:33:14,701 --> 00:33:19,330 and this episode, we ask him to unpack why we shouldn't think of salvation 407 00:33:19,330 --> 00:33:23,418 as just a ticket to heaven, and what that means for assurance 408 00:33:24,168 --> 00:33:27,171 and perseverance in faith. 409 00:34:10,965 --> 00:34:12,008 We can be misled 410 00:34:12,008 --> 00:34:16,054 to think of salvation as a ticket we receive as something we can 411 00:34:16,054 --> 00:34:19,057 then argue about whether or not we can lose it. 412 00:34:20,224 --> 00:34:22,143 John Coblentz 413 00:34:22,143 --> 00:34:27,023 helps us see why thinking about salvation as a one time getting a ticket 414 00:34:27,231 --> 00:34:31,611 is not helpful and calls us to persevere and continue 415 00:34:31,611 --> 00:34:34,614 with God in faith. 416 00:35:07,897 --> 00:35:08,815 Thank you for listening 417 00:35:08,815 --> 00:35:11,818 and I hope this episode, was encouraging to you. 418 00:35:12,110 --> 00:35:15,071 if the questions 419 00:35:15,071 --> 00:35:18,074 of assurance of salvation or maybe struggles with doubt, 420 00:35:18,616 --> 00:35:22,328 are something you think about a lot, I would encourage you 421 00:35:22,328 --> 00:35:25,498 to watch another episode we did with Daniel Yoder. 422 00:35:26,332 --> 00:35:29,335 on the question of am I a believer? 423 00:35:29,585 --> 00:35:32,421 he says doubt is not a sin. 424 00:35:32,421 --> 00:35:34,966 Doubt is a temptation. 425 00:35:34,966 --> 00:35:37,510 that will be linked in the show notes below. 426 00:35:38,970 --> 00:35:40,805 Or you can check out 427 00:35:40,805 --> 00:35:46,519 our website to browse, various content, both episodes and also, 428 00:35:47,145 --> 00:35:49,897 essays and articles, that are available 429 00:35:49,897 --> 00:35:52,900 there. 430 00:40:29,468 --> 00:40:32,471 Yeah, I put that in the introduction. 431 00:40:35,933 --> 00:40:38,936 the questions themselves. 432 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,400 The questions themselves don't come there. 433 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,403 But I think it is. 434 00:40:47,653 --> 00:40:50,281 I think it would be. 435 00:40:50,281 --> 00:40:53,284 I think where it would go, I think it would be very helpful because. 436 00:40:54,326 --> 00:40:56,454 Yeah, especially 437 00:40:56,454 --> 00:40:58,289 the those two do get run together. 438 00:40:58,289 --> 00:41:00,374 But they are 439 00:41:00,374 --> 00:41:03,002 you know, the authentic Calvinist position 440 00:41:03,002 --> 00:41:07,047 is very different than the eternal security. 441 00:41:10,885 --> 00:41:15,806 And the unconditional eternal security kind of rose out, 442 00:41:16,307 --> 00:41:19,268 the revival, this movement, the emphasis on a point in time 443 00:41:19,268 --> 00:41:23,022 decision in that I get saved and then I'm saved forever.