I do think that we have to be careful in interacting
with people, that we don't become the judges of their eternal condition
or destiny, that's God's work and...
However, it is right for us to call people
toward genuine faith, toward saying, I really do
believe in Jesus and faith is acting according to realities
that we can't see.
So, happy to have John Coblentz,
join us, to talk about issues related to salvation.
And can I lose my ticket to heaven?
we'll see what he says about that.
John, could you begin just a short introduction
to who you are and your work?
yes. John Coblentz, I serve at, Faith builders Educational programs.
I have been there for, I’m in my 18th year,
serving as campus pastor and instructor.
the last couple of years, I've given off some of my classes to younger ones.
I'm getting older, but have really enjoyed the opportunity
to, study, to learn, teach there,
with the students and staff at Faith builders.
Yeah.
And one of the products of some of that study
is, your book, God's Glory in the church.
devotional commentary on Ephesians.
and I want to start with a quote from that.
So you write, “Much misunderstanding
results from speaking of salvation as a single event.
When we made a decision or we went forward
in response to an invitation or prayed the sinner's prayer.
with this limited point in time understanding,
we can be misled to think of salvation as a ticket we receive,
as something that we can then argue about whether or not we can lose it.”
so what I hear you saying is.
This way of thinking about salvation leads us to thinking about
we get a ticket, you know, admission ticket to heaven or something like that.
And we start to argue, you know, can we lose it?
Can we not lose it?
what's wrong with the ticket metaphor?
Why is this a bad way to think about it?
Yes. Well, the saving work of God is a,
is not something that He does at a particular point,
but it's a continuing work within us, and it is a actually a union with the savior.
John writes, he who has the Son of God
has life, and he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
So God's saving work is not something
that I can hold, in my hands or, a record of something.
It's actually a work that God is doing as I trust him, as I put my faith in Jesus.
And it's the saving of us that is both
something that He has done and is doing and will do in our lives.
It's a continuing work.
So I could imagine someone saying that
yes, they agree that this is, you know, God keeps working on us, but,
you know, there's something very special about the beginning when we go from
God's enemy to God's friend.
And yes, He needs to keep doing more.
But, you know, we've made the jump.
And so
maybe they'd feel like the way you frame it,
you know, downplays that,
that jump too much or that adoption,
Because I don't know.
Would that again lead back toward more thinking of,
you know, well, I got saved.
Can I be unsaved or not unsaved?
Yes. Well, different analogies
are used in the scripture to understand, salvation.
Birth is one.
redemption is another, deliverance from,
slavery, deliverance from prison, getting, being freed.
The different analogies are used.
and, God does bring us to life,
but he brings us to life through faith in Jesus.
And I think it's
a wrong way of understanding to assume
that an experience is what it's all about,
a particular experience in my life. It's
as we trust in him.
And the scriptures indicate that, you know, God is the Savior.
But we must believe in order for that to happen.
Faith is necessary.
And what I would understand the scriptures to teach is that
just as
we can come into the life of God through faith,
we can turn away from God through unbelief.
So resorting to unbelief.
And there's no assurance in the New Testament for people who live in unbelief.
And so the necessity is for us to continue in faith.
And He continues in His saving work as we continue in faith
and do not resort again, to unbelief, to a life of unbelief.
So Paul writes about those who,
have made shipwreck of their faith.
There's that language in Scripture of falling away.
And so there is that potential.
And I must not assume that a particular thing I did in the past,
will take care of a life
of turning away from God or unbelief.
The reality
is that this doesn't mean that we are,
that our salvation depends on our perfect...
life of righteousness.
We're saved because of the righteousness of Christ and His works
and so it's not our works that save us, but our continued faith.
That is an active faith.
And he continues to save us then.
Yeah.
So you said there's different analogies that help with different things.
So as soon as you said that, my mind went to the analogy of the seed
and the plant, because
think about the parable of the sower.
The seed is the word of God.
And you know, it talks about stony ground.
It talks about that seed did start growing.
There was life coming from the Word of God.
And then it,
you know, the faith wasn't there.
in trial when the life disappeared
or the life started growing, and then it was choked out
by thorns and thistles and so on, and,
that's another interesting metaphor.
But yeah, with this issue of assurance and that kind of one time experience,
now I've also known people.
And yeah, one person in particular where,
you know, they had such a framework of there's this one,
there's this experience, there's a thing I can point to where it happened.
And then,
you know, for many years kept coming back to struggle with that
because it's like, well, did it happen Right?
Did I get the right thing? Did I really believe?
Was I really born again?
And I think if I hear you right, you want to say
with a fuller understanding of salvation, we can address some of that worry about,
did the right
thing happen at a certain time?
Yes. And even in my own experience, I remember early on with,
I think we have absorbed some of that emphasis
on needing a particular point in time radical change.
I remember
personally struggling because the reality is that,
we often come to God initially with only partial understanding,
sometimes, fairly young,
only later we come to understand,
things about Jesus or what it means to follow him.
And so,
I personally struggled with that and then thinking, well,
maybe I need to do it again to be sure
that I've done it right or that I am a believer.
And, it's a misunderstanding.
our salvation is not dependent on a particular formula
or way that we did it or whatever.
It's in coming to Jesus.
It's in trusting Him.
And as I trust in Him that the God does His saving work.
The saving work is God's work.
I can't save myself.
I'm trusting in Him, and it's not in a well, did I do it quite right?
And we can have these four steps that we have to go through.
And the reality is that God
might bring us in having done step three first or something.
it's not
always, I read about people's stories and how they come to God.
An it's amazing how different it can be for people.
But when their trust is in Jesus, there is our security.
He is our security.
Yeah.
So thinking about your,
again a couple topics from Ephesians,
again relate to this thing of,
you know, security assurance.
so Ephesians chapter one talks about the Holy Spirit
being a seal,
for believers and also talks about it being,
at least in some translations use the word, you know, a guarantee.
until the day of redemption.
would you want to talk about that picture or those pictures a little bit?
yes. Just a beautiful, analogy that is used there.
We don't use seals today.
A stamp, but it indicates ownership and, we belong.
And one of the beautiful things about,
coming to life in Jesus is, the work of the Holy Spirit within us,
in which He regenerates us and begins to produce in us the life of Jesus.
And, so the scriptures warn
us against things like grieving the Holy Spirit
or doing things against his work, stifling, the work of the Holy Spirit.
And so,
this is actually
something that is very assuring, and we can, trust again
that God is, by giving us His Holy Spirit, making us His sons and daughters.
He's actually
calling us His own.
And it's so assuring, for us.
But then we must not take that as,
well that gives me liberty to live however I want.
that would grieve His Holy Spirit and could stifle His work.
within us and shortchange what God actually intends
to accomplish by His spirit within us.
Yeah so, and you used the word stamp
for the seal, which I find really helpful because,
you know, in our current context
we can hear seal and we think about,
you know, sealing a bag so nothing gets in and out
or sealing a can or something.
and I don't know, it seems
like that sometimes plays into,
that kind of thinking of unconditional, eternal security.
It's like, well,
God put you in the can and sealed it shut, so you're not going to get back out
or something.
But the image is actually the stamp, the identifying stamp placed on,
the spirit showing that you belong to God.
Yeah.
And then the Holy Spirit as a also a guarantee
of our inheritance, until the redemption.
yeah.
What's in that word?
Yeah, I think it is the again, it's
that assurance that God will carry forward his work.
and it's, it is, the sense there,
if I recall the wording in the Greek
there would be, this idea of a down payment or first,
which guarantees the remainder to follow.
So God isn't going to abandon us.
He's not going to abandon His project.
And really, the setting there.
All of the objects of the verbs are actually plural.
So it's actually not just individually, but it's this assembly
that He’s gathering, He has poured out his Holy Spirit.
He has given as the guarantee He's going to carry forward His work,
which relates to this whole thing about the imperfections
that we have and that our, the church has.
God isn't going to just abandon this.
He’s guaranteed that He's going to carry forward His work.
Yeah.
And I was thinking about that as it relates to,
the question, you know, can we fall away or whatever?
so I'm actually in the interesting situation
right now of having a property under contract and having put down
one of those deposits to show that I'm, you know, going to go through with,
the transaction.
and there's a couple things about it, but
that doesn't mean that it will be impossible for the seller to default,
even if my guarantee is there.
And in fact, there are certain contingencies on that offer as well that.
Could fail to be met.
yeah.
I do want to think a little bit about,
you know, people who say they're not walking with God now,
but they look to conversion in the past and say,
you know, I've been saved and I can't be unsaved
or whatever.
maybe on the way to that,
these words are the seal and a guarantee.
So they show up in Ephesians one,
and then in Ephesians five, there's again a reference.
You mentioned it.
Don't grieve the spirit by which you have been sealed.
but I remember one English translation actually took the guarantee language
from chapter one and put it in chapter
five and said, in effect, don't grieve the Holy Spirit.
You've been sealed by the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing that you will be
saved on the day of redemption.
and it just struck me as changing the meaning
of that down payment to more like the,
well, here's an unconditional guarantee that you'll be found saved
at the final judgment.
and I hear you saying no,
the guarantee is God will carry forward His part.
It's not that it's going to keep us from
walking away.
So, yeah, either
if you have thoughts on that or just in general,
you know, how should this lead us?
maybe you're talking to somebody who
feels like, yeah, I've been saved.
I'm a Christian, but does not seem to be walking with God.
how should we think about that?
I do think that we have to be careful in interacting
with people, that we don't become the judges of their eternal...
condition or destiny, that's God's work.
And, however, it is right for us to call people
toward genuine faith, toward saying, I really do believe in Jesus.
And, faith is acting according to realities that we can't see.
We come to God, he who comes to God must believe that He is.
And that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
So faith is actively, ordering our lives
by what we, unseen realities, that we trust in, that we believe.
And you know, James talks about it, a faith that is dead, that it's just a
verbal assent or mental assent, but not necessarily a life assent.
And, and so it needs to be an active faith.
And if I'm simply trusting in an experience, really
the unconditional eternal security
way of thinking is fairly, is relatively recent
in church theology, the earlier,
Calvin would have taught perseverance of the saints
in which he would have understood
that the proof of your election is that you will persevere.
it was not that, you will automatically persevere,
but that if you are elect, the proof of that is in your perseverance.
with the revivalist movement, it shifted more toward
an understanding that my security depends on this point in time
where I made a profession of faith,
I received Jesus, and now nothing that I do can change that.
And Calvin,
the older understanding was
that, no, the proof that you actually are,
God's is that, God's own,
God's elect is that you continue in the faith.
And, so this understanding that no matter what we do,
we can't be unborn or
we can't lose our, salvation
is, Really can, I think.
And in it’s worst sense, it can give people a false assurance.
many people I want to say this, many people
who believe in unconditionally eternal security are Bible believing,
Jesus loving people and I don't judge them.
But I am concerned about those people who may, live in sin,
but trust in an experience a former experience,
and they really don't have intention of following Jesus at this point.
But trusting that experience and that to me would be a false security.
Yeah. Yeah.
Both of those are helpful. So you again,
you're not
saying that there's not many people of strong faith
who hold the doctrine of eternal security
or unconditional eternal security.
but just pointing out the danger that
will often go with it.
Yeah.
And also to distinguish again between the Calvinist position
that, you know, the elect will persevere in faith
and the
doctrine of, you know, unconditional, eternal security, which is I don't know,
is it more like, well, you're saved whether or not you persevere in faith?
Essentially yes.
yeah.
Thanks for that.
anything else you'd like to share on
this idea of, you know, related to assurance of salvation?
How we think about salvation and the ticket to heaven?
I am grateful, actually, among a number of evangelical writers
and teachers and so on, that there has been a significant, teaching.
against this, maybe almost flippant.
I had an experience.
So no matter how I live, and I think of, Dallas Willard used a different analogy.
He talks about barcode Christians.
Where simply, you're kind of stamped and then, and lamented that,
many people in, evangelical circles, simply
are trusting a particular experience, but they're really not following Jesus.
And, so there are a number of,
authors and teachers that have really pushed against that
and called their people to follow Jesus in,
by their lives.
And again, I, for,
The issue of our salvation is not.
Or the experience of our salvation is not dependent
upon us having a complete or full understanding of it.
It's a work of God, and it's always in some sense
a mystery that is, beyond our full understanding.
And it's more important that we love Jesus and know Him and follow Him than that
we can explain it exactly, correctly.
Yes. Amen.
Yeah.
Thank you John.
I hope John's words were encouraging to you.
we also did an interview with Daniel
Yoder, called am I a believer?
Where he talks about doubt is not sin.
It is a temptation.
so that can also be a source of encouragement.
if you are thinking
about issues of assurance or faith,
you can find that linked in the show notes, for this episode.
you can also check
out our website, anabaptistperspectives.org
for a wide range of content, video,
audio, as well as, written essays.
And thank you for watching.
Yeah.
So could you clarify then you said the subjects.
Sorry.
Yeah, yeah.
See clarify.
So the objects of these verbs are plural.
us what do you mean by that?
yes. So in chapter one, he talks about, us,
being chosen in him.
we are accepted, in the beloved,
all the all the objects of the verbs are for which he predestined us.
It's he's already marked out the destiny of his of those who are in Jesus.
And so,
there certainly is is a personal dimension to that.
God calls us and he chooses us.
And, so, so there's a personal dimension, but it is actually,
beautiful to see that he's talking there in Ephesians one about this
assembly that he is he is gathering together
and is already, our destination has already determined.
It's it's, it's for his glory then, that he is doing this, again.
It's it's the it's the corporate
which has the individual dimension as well that we are chosen in him.
Yeah.
Thanks.
We can be misled.
To think of salvation as a ticket we receive.
As something that we can then argue about whether or not we can lose it.
John Coblentz writes that in his commentary on Ephesians
and this episode, we ask him to unpack why we shouldn't think of salvation
as just a ticket to heaven, and what that means for assurance
and perseverance in faith.
We can be misled
to think of salvation as a ticket we receive as something we can
then argue about whether or not we can lose it.
John Coblentz
helps us see why thinking about salvation as a one time getting a ticket
is not helpful and calls us to persevere and continue
with God in faith.
Thank you for listening
and I hope this episode, was encouraging to you.
if the questions
of assurance of salvation or maybe struggles with doubt,
are something you think about a lot, I would encourage you
to watch another episode we did with Daniel Yoder.
on the question of am I a believer?
he says doubt is not a sin.
Doubt is a temptation.
that will be linked in the show notes below.
Or you can check out
our website to browse, various content, both episodes and also,
essays and articles, that are available
there.
Yeah, I put that in the introduction.
the questions themselves.
The questions themselves don't come there.
But I think it is.
I think it would be.
I think where it would go, I think it would be very helpful because.
Yeah, especially
the those two do get run together.
But they are
you know, the authentic Calvinist position
is very different than the eternal security.
And the unconditional eternal security kind of rose out,
the revival, this movement, the emphasis on a point in time
decision in that I get saved and then I'm saved forever.