Speaker: 00:00:00

I do think that we have to be careful

in interacting

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with people, that we don't become

the judges of their eternal condition

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or destiny, that's God's work and...

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However, it is right for us to call people

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toward genuine faith, toward saying,

I really do

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believe in Jesus and faith is acting

according to realities

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that we can't see.

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So, happy to have John Coblentz,

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join us, to talk about issues

related to salvation.

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And can I lose my ticket to heaven?

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we'll see what he says about that.

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John,

could you begin just a short introduction

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to who you are and your work?

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yes. John Coblentz, I serve at,

Faith builders Educational programs.

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I have been there

for, I’m in my 18th year,

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serving as campus pastor and instructor.

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the last couple of years, I've given off

some of my classes to younger ones.

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I'm getting older,

but have really enjoyed the opportunity

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to, study, to learn, teach there,

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with the students

and staff at Faith builders.

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Yeah.

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And one of the products

of some of that study

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is, your book, God's Glory in the church.

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devotional commentary on Ephesians.

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and I want to start with a quote

from that.

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So you write, “Much misunderstanding

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results from speaking of salvation

as a single event.

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When we made a decision or we went forward

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in response to an invitation

or prayed the sinner's prayer.

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with this

limited point in time understanding,

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we can be misled to think of salvation

as a ticket we receive,

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as something that we can then argue about

whether or not we can lose it.”

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so what I hear you saying is.

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This way of thinking about salvation

leads us to thinking about

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we get a ticket, you know, admission

ticket to heaven or something like that.

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And we start to argue,

you know, can we lose it?

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Can we not lose it?

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what's wrong with the ticket metaphor?

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Why is this a bad way to think about it?

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Yes. Well, the saving work of God is a,

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is not something

that He does at a particular point,

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but it's a continuing work within us, and

it is a actually a union with the savior.

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John writes, he who has the Son of God

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has life, and he who does not have

the Son of God does not have life.

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So God's saving work is not something

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that I can hold, in my hands or,

a record of something.

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It's actually a work that God is doing as

I trust him, as I put my faith in Jesus.

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And it's the saving of us that is both

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something that He has done

and is doing and will do in our lives.

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It's a continuing work.

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So I could imagine someone saying that

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yes, they agree that this is, you know,

God keeps working on us, but,

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you know, there's something very special

about the beginning when we go from

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God's enemy to God's friend.

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And yes, He needs to keep doing more.

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But, you know, we've made the jump.

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And so

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maybe they'd feel

like the way you frame it,

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you know, downplays that,

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that jump too much or that adoption,

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Because I don't know.

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Would that again

lead back toward more thinking of,

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you know, well, I got saved.

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Can I be unsaved or not unsaved?

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Yes. Well, different analogies

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are used in the scripture to understand,

salvation.

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Birth is one.

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redemption is another, deliverance from,

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slavery, deliverance

from prison, getting, being freed.

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The different analogies are used.

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and, God does bring us to life,

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but he brings us to life

through faith in Jesus.

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And I think it's

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a wrong way of understanding to assume

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that an experience is what it's all about,

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a particular experience in my life. It's

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as we trust in him.

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And the scriptures indicate that,

you know, God is the Savior.

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But we must believe in order

for that to happen.

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Faith is necessary.

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And what I would understand

the scriptures to teach is that

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just as

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we can come into the life of God

through faith,

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we can turn away from God

through unbelief.

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So resorting to unbelief.

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And there's no assurance in the New

Testament for people who live in unbelief.

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And so the necessity

is for us to continue in faith.

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And He continues in His saving work

as we continue in faith

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and do not resort again,

to unbelief, to a life of unbelief.

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So Paul writes about those who,

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have made shipwreck of their faith.

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There's that language

in Scripture of falling away.

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And so there is that potential.

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And I must not assume

that a particular thing I did in the past,

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will take care of a life

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of turning away from God or unbelief.

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The reality

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is that this doesn't mean that we are,

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that our salvation depends

on our perfect...

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life of righteousness.

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We're saved because of the righteousness

of Christ and His works

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and so it's not our works

that save us, but our continued faith.

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That is an active faith.

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And he continues to save us then.

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Yeah.

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So you said there's different analogies

that help with different things.

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So as soon as you said that,

my mind went to the analogy of the seed

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and the plant, because

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think about the parable of the sower.

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The seed is the word of God.

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And you know, it talks about stony ground.

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It talks about that seed

did start growing.

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There was life

coming from the Word of God.

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And then it,

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you know, the faith wasn't there.

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in trial when the life disappeared

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or the life started growing,

and then it was choked out

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by thorns and thistles and so on, and,

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that's another interesting metaphor.

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But yeah, with this issue of assurance

and that kind of one time experience,

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now I've also known people.

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And yeah, one person in particular where,

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you know, they had such

a framework of there's this one,

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there's this experience, there's a thing

I can point to where it happened.

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And then,

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you know, for many years

kept coming back to struggle with that

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because it's like, well, did it happen

Right?

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Did I get the right thing?

Did I really believe?

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Was I really born again?

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And I think if I hear you right,

you want to say

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with a fuller understanding of salvation,

we can address some of that worry about,

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did the right

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thing happen at a certain time?

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Yes. And even in my own experience,

I remember early on with,

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I think we have absorbed

some of that emphasis

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on needing a particular point in time

radical change.

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I remember

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personally struggling

because the reality is that,

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we often come to God initially

with only partial understanding,

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sometimes, fairly young,

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only later we come to understand,

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things about Jesus

or what it means to follow him.

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And so,

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I personally struggled with that

and then thinking, well,

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maybe I need to do it again to be sure

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that I've done it right

or that I am a believer.

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And, it's a misunderstanding.

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our salvation is not dependent

on a particular formula

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or way that we did it or whatever.

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It's in coming to Jesus.

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It's in trusting Him.

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And as I trust in Him

that the God does His saving work.

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The saving work is God's work.

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I can't save myself.

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I'm trusting in Him, and it's

not in a well, did I do it quite right?

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And we can have these four steps

that we have to go through.

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And the reality is that God

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might bring us in having done

step three first or something.

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it's not

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always, I read about people's stories

and how they come to God.

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An it's amazing

how different it can be for people.

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But when their trust is in Jesus,

there is our security.

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He is our security.

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Yeah.

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So thinking about your,

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again a couple topics from Ephesians,

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again relate to this thing of,

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you know, security assurance.

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so Ephesians

chapter one talks about the Holy Spirit

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being a seal,

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for believers

and also talks about it being,

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at least in some translations

use the word, you know, a guarantee.

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until the day of redemption.

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would you want to talk about that picture

or those pictures a little bit?

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yes. Just a beautiful, analogy

that is used there.

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We don't use seals today.

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A stamp, but it indicates ownership and,

we belong.

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And one of the beautiful things about,

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coming to life in Jesus is,

the work of the Holy Spirit within us,

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in which He regenerates us and begins

to produce in us the life of Jesus.

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And, so the scriptures warn

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us against things

like grieving the Holy Spirit

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or doing things against his work,

stifling, the work of the Holy Spirit.

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And so,

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this is actually

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something that is very assuring,

and we can, trust again

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that God is, by giving us His Holy Spirit,

making us His sons and daughters.

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He's actually

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calling us His own.

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And it's so assuring, for us.

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But then we must not take that as,

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well that gives me liberty to live

however I want.

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that would grieve His Holy Spirit

and could stifle His work.

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within us and shortchange

what God actually intends

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to accomplish by His spirit within us.

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Yeah so, and you used the word stamp

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for the seal,

which I find really helpful because,

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you know, in our current context

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we can hear seal and we think about,

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you know, sealing a bag

so nothing gets in and out

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or sealing a can or something.

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and I don't know, it seems

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like that sometimes plays into,

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that kind of thinking of unconditional,

eternal security.

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It's like, well,

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God put you in the can and sealed it shut,

so you're not going to get back out

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or something.

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But the image is actually the stamp,

the identifying stamp placed on,

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the spirit showing that you belong to God.

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Yeah.

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And then the Holy Spirit as a also

a guarantee

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of our inheritance, until the redemption.

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yeah.

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What's in that word?

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Yeah, I think it is the again, it's

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that assurance

that God will carry forward his work.

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and it's, it is, the sense there,

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if I recall the wording in the Greek

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there would be, this idea

of a down payment or first,

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which guarantees the remainder to follow.

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So God isn't going to abandon us.

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He's not going to abandon His project.

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And really, the setting there.

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All of the objects of the verbs

are actually plural.

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So it's actually not just individually,

but it's this assembly

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that He’s gathering,

He has poured out his Holy Spirit.

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He has given as the guarantee He's

going to carry forward His work,

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which relates to this whole thing

about the imperfections

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that we have and that our, the church has.

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God isn't going to just abandon this.

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He’s guaranteed

that He's going to carry forward His work.

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Yeah.

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And I was thinking about that

as it relates to,

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the question, you know,

can we fall away or whatever?

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so I'm actually

in the interesting situation

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right now of having a property

under contract and having put down

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one of those deposits to show that I'm,

you know, going to go through with,

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the transaction.

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and there's a couple things about it, but

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that doesn't mean that it will be

impossible for the seller to default,

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even if my guarantee is there.

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And in fact, there are certain

contingencies on that offer as well that.

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Could fail to be met.

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yeah.

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I do want to think a little bit about,

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you know, people

who say they're not walking with God now,

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but they look to conversion in the past

and say,

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you know, I've been saved

and I can't be unsaved

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or whatever.

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maybe on the way to that,

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these words are the seal and a guarantee.

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So they show up in Ephesians one,

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and then in Ephesians five, there's again

a reference.

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You mentioned it.

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Don't grieve

the spirit by which you have been sealed.

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but I remember one English translation

actually took the guarantee language

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from chapter one and put it in chapter

258

00:14:55,352 --> 00:14:58,856

five and said, in effect, don't grieve

the Holy Spirit.

259

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You've been sealed by the Holy Spirit,

guaranteeing that you will be

260

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saved on the day of redemption.

261

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and it just struck me

as changing the meaning

262

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of that down payment to more like the,

263

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well, here's an unconditional guarantee

that you'll be found saved

264

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at the final judgment.

265

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and I hear you saying no,

266

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the guarantee is God will carry forward

His part.

267

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It's not that it's going to keep us from

268

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walking away.

269

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So, yeah, either

270

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if you have thoughts on that

or just in general,

271

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you know, how should this lead us?

272

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maybe you're talking to somebody who

273

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feels like, yeah, I've been saved.

274

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I'm a Christian,

but does not seem to be walking with God.

275

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how should we think about that?

276

00:15:56,664 --> 00:16:00,084

I do think that we have to be careful

in interacting

277

00:16:00,084 --> 00:16:05,005

with people, that we don't become

the judges of their eternal...

278

00:16:06,423 --> 00:16:09,051

condition or destiny, that's God's work.

279

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And, however,

it is right for us to call people

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00:16:14,848 --> 00:16:20,270

toward genuine faith, toward saying,

I really do believe in Jesus.

281

00:16:20,270 --> 00:16:24,733

And, faith is acting

according to realities that we can't see.

282

00:16:25,192 --> 00:16:29,279

We come to God, he who comes to God

must believe that He is.

283

00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:31,740

And that He is a rewarder of those

who diligently seek Him.

284

00:16:31,740 --> 00:16:36,495

So faith is actively, ordering our lives

285

00:16:36,495 --> 00:16:40,958

by what we, unseen realities,

that we trust in, that we believe.

286

00:16:40,958 --> 00:16:46,714

And you know, James talks about it,

a faith that is dead, that it's just a

287

00:16:47,131 --> 00:16:51,844

verbal assent or mental assent,

but not necessarily a life assent.

288

00:16:51,844 --> 00:16:55,931

And, and so it needs to be

an active faith.

289

00:16:56,557 --> 00:16:59,518

And if I'm simply

trusting in an experience, really

290

00:16:59,643 --> 00:17:02,646

the unconditional eternal security

291

00:17:02,980 --> 00:17:06,358

way of thinking is fairly,

is relatively recent

292

00:17:06,650 --> 00:17:10,821

in church theology, the earlier,

293

00:17:10,821 --> 00:17:13,991

Calvin would have taught

perseverance of the saints

294

00:17:14,575 --> 00:17:17,786

in which he would have understood

295

00:17:17,786 --> 00:17:21,373

that the proof of your election

is that you will persevere.

296

00:17:22,249 --> 00:17:27,171

it was not that,

you will automatically persevere,

297

00:17:27,171 --> 00:17:31,925

but that if you are elect,

the proof of that is in your perseverance.

298

00:17:32,551 --> 00:17:36,555

with the revivalist movement,

it shifted more toward

299

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an understanding that my security depends

on this point in time

300

00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,146

where I made a profession of faith,

301

00:17:44,146 --> 00:17:47,691

I received Jesus,

and now nothing that I do can change that.

302

00:17:48,233 --> 00:17:49,193

And Calvin,

303

00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:52,071

the older understanding was

304

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that, no, the proof that you actually are,

305

00:17:55,991 --> 00:17:58,994

God's is that, God's own,

306

00:17:58,994 --> 00:18:02,039

God's elect

is that you continue in the faith.

307

00:18:02,831 --> 00:18:07,211

And, so this understanding that

no matter what we do,

308

00:18:07,252 --> 00:18:10,255

we can't be unborn or

309

00:18:10,297 --> 00:18:13,300

we can't lose our, salvation

310

00:18:13,801 --> 00:18:17,179

is, Really can, I think.

311

00:18:17,179 --> 00:18:22,559

And in it’s worst sense,

it can give people a false assurance.

312

00:18:22,976 --> 00:18:25,687

many people

I want to say this, many people

313

00:18:25,687 --> 00:18:29,858

who believe in unconditionally

eternal security are Bible believing,

314

00:18:29,858 --> 00:18:34,488

Jesus loving people

and I don't judge them.

315

00:18:34,488 --> 00:18:39,409

But I am concerned about those people

who may, live in sin,

316

00:18:39,409 --> 00:18:42,162

but trust in an experience

a former experience,

317

00:18:42,162 --> 00:18:45,707

and they really don't have intention

of following Jesus at this point.

318

00:18:45,707 --> 00:18:50,462

But trusting that experience

and that to me would be a false security.

319

00:18:51,338 --> 00:18:52,673

Yeah. Yeah.

320

00:18:52,673 --> 00:18:54,550

Both of those are helpful. So you again,

321

00:18:56,343 --> 00:18:56,677

you're not

322

00:18:56,677 --> 00:18:59,847

saying that there's

not many people of strong faith

323

00:18:59,847 --> 00:19:03,350

who hold the doctrine of eternal security

324

00:19:04,268 --> 00:19:06,645

or unconditional eternal security.

325

00:19:06,645 --> 00:19:10,816

but just pointing out the danger that

326

00:19:12,317 --> 00:19:14,528

will often go with it.

327

00:19:14,528 --> 00:19:14,695

Yeah.

328

00:19:14,695 --> 00:19:18,157

And also to distinguish again

between the Calvinist position

329

00:19:19,032 --> 00:19:22,578

that, you know,

the elect will persevere in faith

330

00:19:24,037 --> 00:19:26,081

and the

331

00:19:26,081 --> 00:19:29,293

doctrine of, you know, unconditional,

eternal security, which is I don't know,

332

00:19:30,502 --> 00:19:33,338

is it more like, well, you're saved

whether or not you persevere in faith?

333

00:19:33,338 --> 00:19:36,341

Essentially yes.

334

00:19:37,050 --> 00:19:37,384

yeah.

335

00:19:37,384 --> 00:19:38,760

Thanks for that.

336

00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,763

anything else you'd like to share on

337

00:19:42,890 --> 00:19:46,351

this idea of, you know, related

to assurance of salvation?

338

00:19:46,351 --> 00:19:49,563

How we think about salvation

and the ticket to heaven?

339

00:19:50,856 --> 00:19:54,651

I am grateful, actually,

among a number of evangelical writers

340

00:19:54,651 --> 00:19:59,448

and teachers and so on, that

there has been a significant, teaching.

341

00:19:59,990 --> 00:20:03,994

against this, maybe almost flippant.

342

00:20:04,244 --> 00:20:05,245

I had an experience.

343

00:20:05,245 --> 00:20:10,792

So no matter how I live, and I think of,

Dallas Willard used a different analogy.

344

00:20:10,792 --> 00:20:12,878

He talks about barcode Christians.

345

00:20:12,878 --> 00:20:18,300

Where simply, you're kind of stamped

and then, and lamented that,

346

00:20:18,425 --> 00:20:22,304

many people in, evangelical circles,

simply

347

00:20:22,304 --> 00:20:26,183

are trusting a particular experience,

but they're really not following Jesus.

348

00:20:26,725 --> 00:20:29,228

And, so there are a number of,

349

00:20:29,228 --> 00:20:35,067

authors and teachers

that have really pushed against that

350

00:20:35,067 --> 00:20:38,320

and called their

people to follow Jesus in,

351

00:20:39,321 --> 00:20:40,697

by their lives.

352

00:20:40,697 --> 00:20:43,700

And again, I, for,

353

00:20:45,953 --> 00:20:48,956

The issue of our salvation is not.

354

00:20:49,539 --> 00:20:52,417

Or the experience of our salvation

is not dependent

355

00:20:52,417 --> 00:20:55,587

upon us having a complete

or full understanding of it.

356

00:20:55,587 --> 00:20:58,757

It's a work of God,

and it's always in some sense

357

00:20:58,757 --> 00:21:03,011

a mystery

that is, beyond our full understanding.

358

00:21:03,011 --> 00:21:07,140

And it's more important that we love Jesus

and know Him and follow Him than that

359

00:21:07,140 --> 00:21:10,227

we can explain it exactly, correctly.

360

00:21:11,311 --> 00:21:14,189

Yes. Amen.

361

00:21:14,189 --> 00:21:14,606

Yeah.

362

00:21:14,606 --> 00:21:15,899

Thank you John.

363

00:21:16,942 --> 00:21:20,362

I hope John's

words were encouraging to you.

364

00:21:22,030 --> 00:21:24,241

we also did an interview with Daniel

365

00:21:24,241 --> 00:21:27,411

Yoder, called am I a believer?

366

00:21:27,411 --> 00:21:29,329

Where he talks about doubt is not sin.

367

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It is a temptation.

368

00:21:31,081 --> 00:21:35,544

so that can also be

a source of encouragement.

369

00:21:35,752 --> 00:21:38,547

if you are thinking

370

00:21:38,547 --> 00:21:41,550

about issues of assurance or faith,

371

00:21:41,550 --> 00:21:46,013

you can find that linked in the show

notes, for this episode.

372

00:21:47,389 --> 00:21:48,056

you can also check

373

00:21:48,056 --> 00:21:51,059

out our website,

anabaptistperspectives.org

374

00:21:51,143 --> 00:21:53,812

for a wide range of content, video,

375

00:21:53,812 --> 00:21:56,898

audio, as well as, written essays.

376

00:21:57,941 --> 00:21:59,401

And thank you for watching.

377

00:28:05,725 --> 00:28:06,518

Yeah.

378

00:28:06,518 --> 00:28:06,851

Yeah.

379

00:28:06,851 --> 00:28:09,938

So could you clarify

then you said the subjects.

380

00:28:10,522 --> 00:28:11,523

Sorry.

381

00:28:11,523 --> 00:28:12,315

Yeah, yeah.

382

00:28:12,315 --> 00:28:12,774

See clarify.

383

00:28:12,774 --> 00:28:15,777

So the objects of these verbs are plural.

384

00:28:16,403 --> 00:28:19,406

us what do you mean by that?

385

00:28:22,033 --> 00:28:27,247

yes. So in chapter one,

he talks about, us,

386

00:28:27,497 --> 00:28:30,500

being chosen in him.

387

00:28:32,085 --> 00:28:35,088

we are accepted, in the beloved,

388

00:28:35,839 --> 00:28:40,385

all the all the objects of the verbs are

for which he predestined us.

389

00:28:40,385 --> 00:28:46,641

It's he's already marked out the destiny

of his of those who are in Jesus.

390

00:28:47,267 --> 00:28:49,811

And so,

391

00:28:49,811 --> 00:28:52,814

there certainly is is a personal dimension

to that.

392

00:28:52,856 --> 00:28:55,984

God calls us and he chooses us.

393

00:28:55,984 --> 00:29:01,030

And, so, so there's a personal dimension,

but it is actually,

394

00:29:01,114 --> 00:29:05,452

beautiful to see that he's talking there

in Ephesians one about this

395

00:29:05,452 --> 00:29:09,622

assembly that he is

he is gathering together

396

00:29:09,622 --> 00:29:14,294

and is already,

our destination has already determined.

397

00:29:14,294 --> 00:29:19,966

It's it's, it's for his glory

then, that he is doing this, again.

398

00:29:19,966 --> 00:29:22,218

It's it's the it's the corporate

399

00:29:22,218 --> 00:29:26,890

which has the individual dimension as well

that we are chosen in him.

400

00:29:27,974 --> 00:29:28,516

Yeah.

401

00:29:28,516 --> 00:29:31,478

Thanks.

402

00:33:01,270 --> 00:33:02,605

We can be misled.

403

00:33:02,605 --> 00:33:05,608

To think of salvation as a ticket

we receive.

404

00:33:05,608 --> 00:33:09,028

As something that we can then argue about

whether or not we can lose it.

405

00:33:10,571 --> 00:33:14,409

John Coblentz writes

that in his commentary on Ephesians

406

00:33:14,701 --> 00:33:19,330

and this episode, we ask him to unpack

why we shouldn't think of salvation

407

00:33:19,330 --> 00:33:23,418

as just a ticket to heaven,

and what that means for assurance

408

00:33:24,168 --> 00:33:27,171

and perseverance in faith.

409

00:34:10,965 --> 00:34:12,008

We can be misled

410

00:34:12,008 --> 00:34:16,054

to think of salvation as a ticket

we receive as something we can

411

00:34:16,054 --> 00:34:19,057

then argue about

whether or not we can lose it.

412

00:34:20,224 --> 00:34:22,143

John Coblentz

413

00:34:22,143 --> 00:34:27,023

helps us see why thinking about salvation

as a one time getting a ticket

414

00:34:27,231 --> 00:34:31,611

is not helpful

and calls us to persevere and continue

415

00:34:31,611 --> 00:34:34,614

with God in faith.

416

00:35:07,897 --> 00:35:08,815

Thank you for listening

417

00:35:08,815 --> 00:35:11,818

and I hope this episode,

was encouraging to you.

418

00:35:12,110 --> 00:35:15,071

if the questions

419

00:35:15,071 --> 00:35:18,074

of assurance of salvation

or maybe struggles with doubt,

420

00:35:18,616 --> 00:35:22,328

are something you think about a lot,

I would encourage you

421

00:35:22,328 --> 00:35:25,498

to watch another episode

we did with Daniel Yoder.

422

00:35:26,332 --> 00:35:29,335

on the question of am I a believer?

423

00:35:29,585 --> 00:35:32,421

he says doubt is not a sin.

424

00:35:32,421 --> 00:35:34,966

Doubt is a temptation.

425

00:35:34,966 --> 00:35:37,510

that will be linked

in the show notes below.

426

00:35:38,970 --> 00:35:40,805

Or you can check out

427

00:35:40,805 --> 00:35:46,519

our website to browse, various content,

both episodes and also,

428

00:35:47,145 --> 00:35:49,897

essays and articles, that are available

429

00:35:49,897 --> 00:35:52,900

there.

430

00:40:29,468 --> 00:40:32,471

Yeah, I put that in the introduction.

431

00:40:35,933 --> 00:40:38,936

the questions themselves.

432

00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,400

The questions themselves don't come there.

433

00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,403

But I think it is.

434

00:40:47,653 --> 00:40:50,281

I think it would be.

435

00:40:50,281 --> 00:40:53,284

I think where it would go,

I think it would be very helpful because.

436

00:40:54,326 --> 00:40:56,454

Yeah, especially

437

00:40:56,454 --> 00:40:58,289

the those two do get run together.

438

00:40:58,289 --> 00:41:00,374

But they are

439

00:41:00,374 --> 00:41:03,002

you know, the authentic Calvinist position

440

00:41:03,002 --> 00:41:07,047

is very different

than the eternal security.

441

00:41:10,885 --> 00:41:15,806

And the unconditional eternal security

kind of rose out,

442

00:41:16,307 --> 00:41:19,268

the revival, this movement,

the emphasis on a point in time

443

00:41:19,268 --> 00:41:23,022

decision in that I get saved

and then I'm saved forever.