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Hello and welcome back to Data Driven. Our next

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guest on the Data Driven podcast is none other than the digital diva

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herself, Jennifer Swanson. As the CEO of

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Tuckpoint Advisory Group, Jennifer doesn't just navigate the

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digital transformation landscape. She practically

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terraforms it. With an explanation of digital

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transformation that's so clear and compelling, it could illuminate the

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darkest corners of the Internet, Jennifer has the uncanny ability to

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demystify the complexities of our digital age.

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Her insights don't just scratch the surface. They

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dive deep into the heart of how technology reshapes businesses,

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cultures, and our very existence. Now on to

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the show.

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Alright. Hello, and welcome to Data Driven, the podcast where we explore the

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emergent fields of artificial intelligence, data science, and, of course,

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data engineering. And with me, is my most

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favoritest data engineer in the world, Andy Leonard. How's it going,

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Andy? It's going well, Frank. How are you? I'm doing alright. It's been a

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wild week here at, Chateau Lavinia, and, you

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know, we've had, just got back from a funeral out of state, and,

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you know, it's all sad and all. But, Yeah. I it has taught

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me to appreciate every moment, because our future

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is not guaranteed. So true. How about you?

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How things by you in Farmville? Things are good. You know,

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we're in the end of February. We're doing this recording on February

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27, 2024. And,

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you know, the trees have been budding now for about, I don't

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know, 2 or 3 weeks, and you may see me do, you know, rub the

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corner of my eye. Pollen seems to be getting there. I actually washed

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pollen off the windshield earlier today. True story.

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Not a lot. Not a lot. Just a just a little bit of a

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dusting, but it was definitely pollen. Yeah. And we've been

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sneezing. We've had our than that. Our interesting.

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We've had our first, start of, fake spring.

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It's, like, 50 degrees today. And then tomorrow, it'll probably be, like, you

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know, below freezing. Might get snow again. Who knows? But speaking

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of snow, our guest today is from a place

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known for lots of snow. Except this year.

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Right. Except this they were just talking about that in the green room. Yeah. That's

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right. So I'd like to welcome Jennifer, Swanson to the show.

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She is the founder and CEO of Tuck Point Advisory Group,

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a collective of digital transformation experts helping world

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class organizations integrate digital technology into all

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areas of their business and significantly improving customer experience and their

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operations. So this is the, I guess it's second episode where we talk about

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customer experience and customer, success, but

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digital transformation, if there's ever been a loaded word.

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I know. I know. What is that? Because I I when I was at

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Microsoft, they they had this, the previous leader of the

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particular group I was in had had something called Digital Transformation

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Academy, and I wasn't really sure what it was about. It was

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Yeah. To to me, it was an excuse to go to Vegas in this particular

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executive to show off her her boat collection.

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Sure. But I'm pretty sure digital transformation has more to do with

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actual real work. Well, I think so. But, you

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know, there's still a fair number of people walking around showing off their boats

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and Rolexes that are working in digital transformation too. I

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I will tell you that, I usually lead

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with digital transformation because I can usually gauge

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whether or not somebody is gonna have the slightest clue what I'm

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talking about when I say, well, sure. I'm a consultant. I work in digital

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transformation, and then I kinda watch their eyes. And if they glaze over,

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I leave it at that. And then I ask them about whether or not they,

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you know, watch the latest whatever sports ball thing or whatever, and then

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we kinda move on from there. Or if they lean in and go,

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you know, what do you mean when you say digital transformation? Then I go,

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They're at least interested. Right? Like, at least they know something about this.

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And really honestly, for me, digital

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transformation is has lost all meaning. Right? It is

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really for me the end tuck point. We really actually focus on operating

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models and how companies work with technology and

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people to, like, bring value both to the

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company and the and the people that they serve. Right? The employees,

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the customers, clients, what have you.

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But nobody would understand that, and that sure as heck doesn't fit on a tagline

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on a website or anything else like that. So we we use the vernacular of

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digital transformation because that's the space in the market that is sort

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of most often discussed. But, actually, the way we

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describe digital transformation was in the headline you read, which is

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technology infusing every part of the business. Right?

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So 15, 20 years ago, maybe 25 years ago,

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technology was the thing that drove, you know, our

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email, maybe our the data stack, the, you

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know, the customer database, the, you

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know, the the big computer in the backroom. That's actually how my dad got his

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start. He worked he worked with the computer. Right?

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And that was in the giant the giant clean room. Right? The

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computer. Nice. Back in the sixties

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seventies in grocery. That was where he got his start.

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Right? Technology was this thing that sat over there, and it

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was, like, a part that was one part of the business,

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and then the rest of the business operated sort of independently

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from technology. And clearly, we are 50, 60 years

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from that genesis. And where we are now is that

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technology is the business and business is technology, and there's no part

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of any business anywhere that is not

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touched by technology, even in businesses that are

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not technical by nature. So I always tell the story,

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and I always say, stop me if you've heard this one. But, you know, take

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the most offline business you can think of, and I always I go

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to masonry. Right? And maybe because we've we did a massive

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backyard patio project last year. Right? So here you have

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people who are they're ordering

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patio pavers and bricks and mortar and all of that stuff.

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Right? So they are coming out to my house, and they are working in an

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incredibly manual manner of

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measuring and, you know, leveling and everything in there,

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building things with hands with

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hands and and materials. But guess what? They have to order all of that.

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They've got supply they've gotta manage supply supply chain

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issues. They've got labor. They have to be paid.

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They have to be hired. People are finding them online

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through review sites, through everything else. So even these

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considered, like, offline businesses still have

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technology all throughout their business. And the question is,

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how integrated is that? How well is it

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managed? How intuitive is that?

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How, easily, how easy is it for

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employees to manage it? How easy is it for customers

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to use it? How does all of that enhance the customer

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experience? And for small companies, sometimes

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the answer is it's great. Sometimes for big companies, the answer is it's

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great. And usually the answer is, well, you

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know, it leaves a little to be desired. And that's where we

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come in to really help think about that end to end experience, whether

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it's on the employee experience side, the customer experience side, or sort of

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the full stack, right, to really think about it, you know,

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nose to tail, stem to stern, and think about how that full

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experience is gonna be integrated and that technology end to end

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integration is gonna happen. The you can't do that with

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teams that are functioning in silos. You have to have cross

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functional teams. You have to have cross functional organizations. You

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have to have funding models that support that. You have to have

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governance models that support that, and you have to have very different kinds

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of mindsets that are different than when technology was,

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again, the computer in the room over here and business off doing

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their own thing. So that's kind of my manifesto of who I am and

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what we do. That is the single best sorry. The

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definition of of digital transformation. The single best one I've

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ever heard. Aw. Now Thank you so much. It it's awesome because, you know, you

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you bring up a good point that all of the way companies

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are structured, it was the computer people were kinda

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off on their own. Yeah. And when

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I switched computer science when I was young but a young man in university,

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my mom was horrified by the fact I would be one of those weird

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people in the basement. Yes. And He has with moss on his

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back. Right? Yeah. Right. And, you know, it's,

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my home office, ironically, is in the basement of the house. But

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Sure. I have a window. But, and

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and, plus, you know, a lot of the the way that organizations are

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structured are very much in that that kind of that

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pre kind of modern era And you bring up the point, like, cross

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functional teams, cross functional budgets. And Yeah. You know,

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it it's almost like and correct me if I'm wrong, that the

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the the the way that companies are organized and structured

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is still 60 some odd years behind the curve. Yes.

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Yes. Sorry, Andy. I didn't cut you off. Yeah. Sorry.

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No. Sorry, Andy. No. That's okay. You asked what I was going to, so we're

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good. I was going for cross functional and and a little more depth there.

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Yeah. The, and that's the part that I think is really interesting is

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that I think the first wave of digital transformation was, let's

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apply technology to everything. Right?

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And not to steal a very another very

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overused phrase, but that's putting lipstick on a pig. Right?

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Because what the assumption was, we could just

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take technology, you know, and

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smack it right on top of all of the old structures, all

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of the old ways of doing things, the old, you know,

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sort of siloed structures, The the

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manufacturing model of we, you know, we do something over

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here, and we hand it off to somebody next to us who hands it off

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to somebody else who hands it off to somebody else. And, really, modern technology

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is not built that way. Right? Modern technology really has a much more

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organic structure and has to be built in a more thoughtful

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strategic end to end manner if you're gonna get the the ROI

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out of it. And so that's where

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operating model transformation comes in. Right? And that shift from

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project management into product management and really thinking

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about that end to end structure. And so I think that's really

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where I believe that second wave transformation piece is coming

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in, and that's where we find you know, that's our market is in that

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second wave where people will ask me, well, what kind of technology do you work

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on? And we're like, yes. All of it. It doesn't matter because it's

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it's not about the technology. It's the organizations that are not

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seeing their investments in that technology or those data

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structures or whatever it is, whatever those investments were in that first

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wave, the executive teams are going like, wait a minute.

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We were promised x, y, and z, and we're

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not seeing it. Why not? And it's because it stopped with the

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technology, and it did not go deep enough into ways

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of working and into structure and into culture and

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into governance and all those other pieces.

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I think back to when I was a younger man,

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and I was working in a large chemical company, and they had set up a

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website. Right? They set up this big ecommerce thing. There's obviously the website

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to kinda explain the company and all that, but they had this idea where you

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can order directly on the web. And, ultimately, what happened was

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somebody got an email and somebody manually key in the order into SAP.

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But it. But you're right. Like, it was it was really

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more of a pressure to get some kind of way that people can

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order online in a way that

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it was a very much a facade, and it was very much a duct tape

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solution. But I think back, and I'm like, you know, if I could go back

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in time and tell myself something other than the winning lottery numbers, it

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would be Yeah. You have to think about the business

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structure that you're operating in as an IT person

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and very much so these are not IT

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experts. These are not And and the people on the board, they get these

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promises from vendors, from the news media, from

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this, and they don't see it because it's

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people process and technology. Right? Like, in in technology, you know,

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one thing of it. And, AI, I think I'm seeing this all

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repeat at kitchen kids of AI. Okay. So I'm not

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crazy. Right? So is this kind of like AI? And I get a lot of

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customers say, we want to use Gen AI. For what? And

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when you challenge them, they kinda say, well, we want a chatbot.

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K? For what? For what? And

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Yes. I don't think people are really fully

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I I encourage people to think beyond the chatbot. Right? Because there's gonna

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be more use cases for Gen AI. But I

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think the fundamentals are people, process, and technology. What's

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your data supply chain look like? Governance. Right? You said governance a number

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of times. You know, you you're on the short path

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to being one of my favorite guests. What does

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governance mean to you? Right? Because you're probably talking about more than just data governance.

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I am. Although data governance is a really important

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part of it, I just think that, inside of organizations,

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which, by the way, governance makes me, like, the least popular person at any

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dinner party, but I really do like governance because what

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governance says to me is that there's inside of an organization.

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There is a predictable,

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and it doesn't have to be overly structured.

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It does not have to be onerous. It does not have

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to be, you know, death by committee because, good lord, we need

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fewer of those. But that does have to be a predictable

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method by which,

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ideas

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get floated up, prioritized,

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and green lit, right, according to the outcomes and

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strategies that are decided as the most important ones at the top of the house.

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Right? So in a in a high functioning organization in my mind, right,

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in a really modern, forward thinking, outcome oriented

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organization, you have an executive team saying, we

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know what direction we're heading, and we know what good looks like. Right?

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Which means they have a clear strategy where they're gonna play and how they're gonna

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win, and they know they've defined outcomes. Right? We

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they know that's what, you know, that's what good looks like. They're not

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saying we wanna make more money. They're saying,

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you know, they're saying we wanna grow revenue through,

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you know, organic growth in this particular market. We wanna do

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it through, deepening our relationship with existing

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customers, like, whatever that is. Right? They've defined what good looks

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like, and they've empowered teams to say, alright. Now given

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that, we trust all of the business units

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to now go define how they're going to do that within their own spheres of

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influence. And there's there are those organizations are gonna come back and say,

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alright. Well, we've got 12 ideas. Here's our 12 ideas. Which 3

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should we be working on? Right? And governance is the method

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by which the organization surfaces those

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ideas, decides how those ideas are gonna move forward, and goes at

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them because we can't that organization can't go

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after a 100 good ideas. Right? Somebody

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shared a quote, and I won't be able to attribute it. So I'm very sorry

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whoever said it and whoever shared it with me. But, somebody

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shared with me on LinkedIn the other day something that said, priorities

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are like arms. Anybody who tells you that they have more than

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2 is either delusional or lying to you. Right?

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And so That's a good quote. Like,

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the those organizations have to have a method by which they're

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they're saying not even no to things,

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but not now. Right? And so governance

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organizational governance to me is a way by which

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strategy is set, outcomes are defined, and priorities are

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determined. And the whole organization holds hands and says,

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this is what we're working on, and it's okay. Not it's not

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just okay. It's required that we're not working on the

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things that don't fit in that bucket.

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Right? Because that's the only way we're gonna be able to get things

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done that we say are important. And so

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that governance looks different in different companies. Right?

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But on some regular basis, the leadership, you

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know, probably 2 or 3 levels down, all have to come together and hold hands

283
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and say, we know what's important. We agree what's important, and

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we're committed to what's important. Right? Now when you get down into

285
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data governance, there's different layers, and that takes on a whole layer different

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layer of structure and meaning and things like that. But from

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my perspective, that enterprise governance is

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that ability to get everybody to hold hands

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on priorities. You know,

290
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it sounds sorry, Andy. It sounds a lot like cultural

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governance. Yes.

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Yes. Because how many times have you worked at a

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company where

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you get it. There's, like, a executive board meeting and everybody nods at

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the strategies. It's, yes, this is the best strategy we've ever had in a 100

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years of whatever. And you look at it and you go, first of all, it's

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no different than the strategy we had 3 years ago, but okay. And that there's

298
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not really a lot of meaning there, and I'm not really sure what it means

299
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for me 3 levels down and how I'm supposed to decide what to work on.

300
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Right? Yeah. And every vice president in

301
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that company is gonna go back to their desk and work on the same projects

302
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that are their pet projects because nobody's really holding them

303
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accountable to stop working on the stuff that they just wanna work on because it's

304
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their pet project. Right? Yep. It's a really hard

305
00:19:12,580 --> 00:19:16,245
thing to get everybody in a company to take some bold steps

306
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to say what's in and what's out. What we're

307
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doing and what we're putting, we're either saying no to or not now

308
00:19:23,365 --> 00:19:26,929
to. Right? Yeah. It's really hard to do

309
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that. It seems like the no or not now or

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not yet. That that seems to be the hard one.

311
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Sure. Sure. Yeah. Wow. Sure.

312
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So that's why we do a lot of, my my advisers

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and I end up doing a lot of what we call as therapy, a

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lot of therapy with the executive teams. And the other

315
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joke, I have a lot of material that I use, but a lot of it

316
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is I come in and I say, we're gonna use the f word a lot.

317
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Feelings. We're going to talk about our feelings a lot. That's

318
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funny. I like that. And that's what an f word I don't have to bleep.

319
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Right. We had our first episode go

320
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live, I think, the overnight where it was the first time we bleeped

321
00:20:10,985 --> 00:20:14,120
it. It was just kinda funny. So, but,

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the interesting thing is is that you're right. Like, it it's it's really

323
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people and egos. Right? Because Oh, yes. Some people on their on

324
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their their pet projects. Like, how do you get them to walk away from

325
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their pet projects? It's worth not walk away, put on the shelf for later.

326
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Like, that seems like, a lot of therapy, actually.

327
00:20:33,895 --> 00:20:37,735
Yeah. Well and some of it is too is the change

328
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that people have to make from driving their own

329
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agenda to driving the agenda of the company. That's a

330
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big that's a big shift. From me to we

331
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is a really big shift, I think, in a lot of this. It's a really

332
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big part of why we have a lot of change management,

333
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as a part of our services. Right? Because I think and we do

334
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a lot in terms of, executive team dynamics because

335
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that's really where a lot of this starts. And not just at the executive

336
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team, but that next layer down. And, you know,

337
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every layer of an organization sort of brings with it its own dynamics. What we

338
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have found really is that oftentimes, it's not the executive team that has

339
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the biggest challenge, and it's not the grassroots layer. Mostly, we

340
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find teams, you know, product teams in particular,

341
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even if they're new teams, you know, teams of folks that and of

342
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engineers, especially engineers that have experience working

343
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in agile. They're hungry for this. They're ready. They want the autonomy. They want

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the empowerment. They're ready to go. You know,

345
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some organizations do some work in transitioning project

346
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managers and BAs into product roles. They give them training. They give

347
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them support. When done well and done right,

348
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those folks are hungry and anxious and ready to have that empowerment and that, like,

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dedicated focus of having one thing to work on rather than being,

350
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like, peanut butter spread on things all the time. Right? They wanna really

351
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have that focus. So it's not the grassroots that struggles, and it's not

352
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the executive team. But those middle layers, you know, we

353
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always say what got them here is not what's gonna get them to that next

354
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layer. And so really part of it is taking them through that,

355
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that change management to building the change muscle to

356
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say, like, you've got the right skills. You have to start to shift

357
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how you deploy them and helping them feel safe in that

358
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deployment that they might suck at it for at first before they're gonna get good

359
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at it in that leadership in that leadership mode. And that's really

360
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hard to do. It takes a commitment from that top layer, right, and support of

361
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their people to say, look. You probably are gonna suck at this, and it's okay.

362
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We're we've got your back. Right? That we're gonna, like, help you through it,

363
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but that's a really big part of it. And that's why, by the way, what

364
00:22:51,525 --> 00:22:54,645
have we just been talking about in the last 5 minutes? We have not been

365
00:22:54,645 --> 00:22:58,260
talking one bit about technology, which is why the whole idea that this is

366
00:22:58,260 --> 00:23:02,020
digital transformation is such bunk. Right? It's not about

367
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the technology. It's all about the people. It's it's poorly named,

368
00:23:05,605 --> 00:23:09,445
isn't it? It really is. Digital is almost

369
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incidental. Right? Because it's about Right. It's

370
00:23:13,270 --> 00:23:16,870
about the the people and the process, not

371
00:23:17,030 --> 00:23:20,385
Yeah. Not the technology. Technology is Yeah. That's

372
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interesting. I I I

373
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I, some time ago when I I switched to working for a software company, You

374
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know, I was just like, I just appreciated the difference because a

375
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wise man once told me, and he's since passed away,

376
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that all companies view software and

377
00:23:38,875 --> 00:23:42,555
technology as a necessary evil. Just some view it as more necessary

378
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than evil and vice versa and some more evil than necessary.

379
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And I think I get it. And I think I know why that is,

380
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is it really boils down to how things were originally structured. It was the

381
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there was it it had the in a lot of companies, I'm not saying all,

382
00:23:57,795 --> 00:24:01,490
but the the general flavor is IT

383
00:24:01,490 --> 00:24:05,010
versus everybody else. Right? That's been my

384
00:24:05,010 --> 00:24:08,850
experience. So Yeah. Maybe maybe, I'm alone

385
00:24:08,850 --> 00:24:12,685
in that. But no it's all been varying degrees of that and and

386
00:24:12,685 --> 00:24:16,285
and when you you know, I I I now under

387
00:24:16,285 --> 00:24:18,545
see I now see that there's a much larger

388
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,420
reason for that. And that that's interesting. So

389
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:27,720
how do you how do you aside from therapy, I mean, how do

390
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,565
companies get around this? Right? Like, is this I mean, this is a mindset shift

391
00:24:31,565 --> 00:24:35,005
that has to start at the top or start at the bottom and and the

392
00:24:35,005 --> 00:24:37,899
middle management, the middle layers. Yeah.

393
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:43,659
Poor middle management. They're always attacked from all sides. But I know.

394
00:24:44,519 --> 00:24:48,025
Like, how do you convince like, in a situation where you have

395
00:24:49,765 --> 00:24:53,525
convinced mental management to change, what was the what was the commonalities where

396
00:24:53,525 --> 00:24:57,159
they did change? Well, so I will tell you. I've been doing

397
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this for a while, and it used to I used to take the stance of

398
00:25:00,759 --> 00:25:03,480
you know, people would say, is it better to just rip the Band Aid off

399
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,225
and just, like, late like, reorgan a whole company in,

400
00:25:07,225 --> 00:25:11,065
like, 6 months and just give get just do it everywhere all at once,

401
00:25:11,065 --> 00:25:13,630
make a big mess, and then put it all back together, or do you start

402
00:25:13,630 --> 00:25:17,150
small and roll it out? And I used to say it doesn't matter. I have

403
00:25:17,150 --> 00:25:20,835
since come to a different understanding, and I think I've got, you

404
00:25:20,835 --> 00:25:24,615
know, we can do it both ways. There's pros and cons to both for sure.

405
00:25:24,995 --> 00:25:28,695
But I think I'm coming around to a preference, of

406
00:25:29,470 --> 00:25:33,149
a maybe it's maybe it's my my my age.

407
00:25:33,149 --> 00:25:36,210
Right? Is that my kinder, gentler moments of

408
00:25:37,935 --> 00:25:41,695
that I think part the best way is is, like, luring

409
00:25:41,695 --> 00:25:45,510
people with, you know, sunshine and honey. Right? Like, you find

410
00:25:45,510 --> 00:25:49,350
the space where you can really prove the model with, you know, whether

411
00:25:49,350 --> 00:25:53,050
it's one one team, you know, 3 teams, something.

412
00:25:53,235 --> 00:25:57,075
And I really like this idea of taking a narrow slice right from top to

413
00:25:57,075 --> 00:26:00,835
bottom. So you've got somebody from, like, say, a VP layer all the way down

414
00:26:00,835 --> 00:26:04,640
to the bottom. So not just taking a frontline

415
00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:08,460
team or 2 or 3, but really taking a, you know, like,

416
00:26:08,460 --> 00:26:12,045
a a nice narrow slice from top to bottom and proving the

417
00:26:12,045 --> 00:26:15,565
model all the way down. So you've got advocates who

418
00:26:15,565 --> 00:26:19,220
can see and taste and really, like,

419
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,820
be your, like, oh my gosh. This actually does work right in

420
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:26,955
in, like, they can feel it. They can, you know, there's like a

421
00:26:26,955 --> 00:26:30,475
visceral feeling to it, and they get excited about it, and then that and start

422
00:26:30,475 --> 00:26:33,915
to spread it to almost like, you know, the teams adjacent to them and then

423
00:26:33,915 --> 00:26:37,560
the teams adjacent to them and teams adjacent to them. It takes a lot of

424
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,000
work to find that right team, but almost in every

425
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,520
single circumstance, the effort to find that narrow

426
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,184
slice is entirely worth it. Right? If spend even if it

427
00:26:48,184 --> 00:26:51,865
means you slow your roll by a month or 2 to find

428
00:26:51,865 --> 00:26:55,460
just that right narrow slice until they're ready, or, you

429
00:26:55,460 --> 00:26:59,299
know, 2 narrow slices and really, like, wall them off for a period

430
00:26:59,299 --> 00:27:03,000
of time, 12 weeks, 15 weeks, something like that to get,

431
00:27:03,285 --> 00:27:07,045
you know, the VP, the directors, the teams

432
00:27:07,045 --> 00:27:10,725
themselves, get them formed, get them, you know, trained, get them up and

433
00:27:10,725 --> 00:27:14,090
running, and get them doing a couple cadences where all of a sudden they start

434
00:27:14,090 --> 00:27:17,770
to feel this energy of, I do own my own destiny. I

435
00:27:17,770 --> 00:27:21,130
am in charge. I do understand how to work with my business partners. I do

436
00:27:21,130 --> 00:27:24,615
know, you know, I can, we can

437
00:27:24,615 --> 00:27:28,215
deliver value faster. It is better when, as a product

438
00:27:28,215 --> 00:27:31,919
owner, I'm sitting with my engineering team and my designer

439
00:27:32,059 --> 00:27:35,500
and my business partners, and we're solutioning in real time. Like, all of a sudden,

440
00:27:35,500 --> 00:27:39,285
they start to feel that, and they're releasing things

441
00:27:39,285 --> 00:27:43,044
in 6 weeks when they've never done anything faster than 6

442
00:27:43,044 --> 00:27:45,544
months. And all of a sudden, they're going, oh,

443
00:27:46,860 --> 00:27:50,540
this. And guess what? That that success and that feeling goes all the way up.

444
00:27:50,540 --> 00:27:54,220
And I think once you start to get that, then it starts to spread, right,

445
00:27:54,220 --> 00:27:57,625
like a good virus through the organization, and you start to go

446
00:27:57,625 --> 00:28:01,225
sideways. But you have to have those you can't just have

447
00:28:01,225 --> 00:28:04,700
those wins be at, like, the junior level, you know, at the

448
00:28:04,700 --> 00:28:08,460
frontline level or the mid middle manager level. You have to sort of have

449
00:28:08,460 --> 00:28:11,740
it all the way up, and you have to pick people who are gonna be

450
00:28:11,740 --> 00:28:15,465
willing to, like, stand on soap boxes and say the same

451
00:28:16,245 --> 00:28:19,924
tell the same stories over and over and over again, and then go sit with

452
00:28:19,924 --> 00:28:23,690
other sit with their peers and be like, hey. I see what

453
00:28:23,690 --> 00:28:26,730
you're doing, and that's an anti pattern, and you need to knock it off. Right?

454
00:28:26,730 --> 00:28:30,265
Like, it can't just be coming from the consultants or from, you know,

455
00:28:30,265 --> 00:28:33,785
whoever is the internal champion. It has to be like, you

456
00:28:33,785 --> 00:28:37,520
can't this is not okay. Right? They have to be those

457
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,180
people have to be the people that are willing to go in

458
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,520
and be in battle with you once you go, which means it's sometimes it's really

459
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,934
hard to find those folks, but it's worth the time to find those

460
00:28:48,934 --> 00:28:52,615
folks. You know? I was I was patting my heart because I'm loving what you're

461
00:28:52,615 --> 00:28:56,430
saying. And I've seen this implemented a bunch of different

462
00:28:56,430 --> 00:28:59,730
ways, and I just wanted to get your take on it because a

463
00:29:00,270 --> 00:29:04,014
few minutes ago, you mentioned agile. And I've

464
00:29:04,014 --> 00:29:07,695
seen from, you know, the bottom and then from

465
00:29:07,695 --> 00:29:11,540
maybe the, you know, the the lower middle, I've

466
00:29:11,540 --> 00:29:15,300
seen, scrum Yeah. Kinda coming

467
00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:18,900
in and bringing with it some of the things you're talking about. There's

468
00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:22,365
definitely a culture shift that has accompanied scrum

469
00:29:22,365 --> 00:29:26,205
where scrum has been implemented successfully in my experience. And

470
00:29:26,205 --> 00:29:30,050
I also see, you know, kind of spiders out again from

471
00:29:30,050 --> 00:29:33,350
that lower middle level down into

472
00:29:34,450 --> 00:29:37,590
more or better or starting DevOps

473
00:29:38,585 --> 00:29:41,405
and and those sorts of, that those sorts of thinking.

474
00:29:42,265 --> 00:29:46,000
Where where I've not seen here's where I've seen it fail is when

475
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,360
people try to take just that piece that works well at the lower

476
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,120
end and then apply it up. Right? Yes. I've seen

477
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,745
that fail a number of times, and and I don't know why.

478
00:29:56,745 --> 00:30:00,585
And it sounds like what you do is you're looking for that

479
00:30:00,585 --> 00:30:04,265
entire stack, that that Yes. Silo, that top

480
00:30:04,265 --> 00:30:07,929
to bottom, and you're fixing the rest of it. Yes.

481
00:30:07,929 --> 00:30:11,690
And so I'd love to love to hear you speak to that. Because let me

482
00:30:11,690 --> 00:30:15,505
tell you how many organizations I've walked into where the first thing

483
00:30:15,505 --> 00:30:19,265
they say to me is, well, we can't do that here because we tried

484
00:30:19,265 --> 00:30:23,105
agile and it didn't work. And I'm like, okay. Say more. Tell me more.

485
00:30:23,105 --> 00:30:26,929
And they're like, wow. You know, fill in the blank

486
00:30:26,929 --> 00:30:30,230
how many years ago? 18 months ago, 3 years ago, whatever,

487
00:30:30,690 --> 00:30:34,455
last week. I don't yeah. It kinda doesn't matter. We

488
00:30:34,835 --> 00:30:38,595
we, we put everybody through Agile, and I'm like, okay. Wait. Hold

489
00:30:38,595 --> 00:30:41,795
up. What do you mean by everybody? And they're like, literally the whole company. Then

490
00:30:41,795 --> 00:30:45,610
I'm like, so just IT. Right? And they're like, no. No.

491
00:30:45,610 --> 00:30:49,290
Everybody. We turned everybody in. Everybody was an agile team. So they went around with,

492
00:30:49,290 --> 00:30:52,865
like, like, a

493
00:30:52,865 --> 00:30:56,625
fairy wand and magic pixie dust. And they're like, you're an agile team,

494
00:30:56,625 --> 00:30:59,220
and you're an agile team, and you're an agile team, and they gave out little

495
00:30:59,220 --> 00:31:02,580
certificates, and everybody's an agile team, and they put them through, like, a little, you

496
00:31:02,580 --> 00:31:06,120
know, whatever, like, a 4 week, 1 week, 12 week, whatever,

497
00:31:06,495 --> 00:31:09,935
dojo, whatever. And they were like, you're all agile teams. And,

498
00:31:09,935 --> 00:31:13,640
like, they didn't address ownership constructs. They didn't address, like

499
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,179
you know, nobody owned anything, but you were an agile team. And I was like,

500
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,395
okay. I know what the problem is.

501
00:31:22,335 --> 00:31:25,695
You know? And I have at least a half a dozen clients in which that

502
00:31:25,695 --> 00:31:29,440
is the exact scenario. Right? Wow. And and to come back

503
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,880
in and say, okay. So, yes, Agile's gonna be a part of this

504
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,240
story, but only once we address things

505
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,055
like, what do teams own?

506
00:31:41,235 --> 00:31:44,995
Right? What is the experience or the capability or the product that

507
00:31:44,995 --> 00:31:48,360
you own and then how you deliver on it.

508
00:31:48,500 --> 00:31:52,260
Agile's the delivery methodology, but you don't start with

509
00:31:52,260 --> 00:31:56,095
Agile because Agile's a delivery methodology. Right? The ownership

510
00:31:56,155 --> 00:31:59,835
construct and the strategy has to be a

511
00:31:59,835 --> 00:32:03,340
part of that. Right? And so, you know, there's no there's no magic

512
00:32:03,340 --> 00:32:07,100
pixie dust in my tool belt over here. You know? And so that's,

513
00:32:07,100 --> 00:32:10,945
I think, a big part of it. So what's the opposite of that? I

514
00:32:10,945 --> 00:32:14,544
mean, so we've we've talked about kind of the delivery model. People at the bottom,

515
00:32:14,544 --> 00:32:18,144
lower lower middle and down. What then what is

516
00:32:18,144 --> 00:32:21,990
the complimentary part of that that's from there up?

517
00:32:22,850 --> 00:32:25,590
Well, some of it a big part of it is getting

518
00:32:26,735 --> 00:32:29,475
leadership to understand that they no longer

519
00:32:31,695 --> 00:32:34,914
I'm just gonna call a spade a spade. They no longer get to say,

520
00:32:38,529 --> 00:32:41,889
the shorthand that I always have is they don't necessarily get to say that the

521
00:32:41,889 --> 00:32:45,269
button is blue. Right? They don't get to say

522
00:32:46,485 --> 00:32:50,245
they don't get to define the features. They don't get to

523
00:32:50,245 --> 00:32:53,740
say, I want you know, in the data realm, their

524
00:32:53,740 --> 00:32:57,580
job is not to say to draw on a little Post it note what they

525
00:32:57,580 --> 00:33:00,995
want the dashboard to look like. That's not the point. The

526
00:33:00,995 --> 00:33:04,695
point is, what questions are you trying to answer? What

527
00:33:05,075 --> 00:33:08,835
problem are you trying to solve? What is the customer need that

528
00:33:08,835 --> 00:33:12,680
we are trying to meet? Right? And by the way, who's the customer? Right? Like,

529
00:33:12,980 --> 00:33:16,820
help define that at the VP and d director level. When

530
00:33:16,820 --> 00:33:20,475
you are talking about that top of that leadership stack, that is

531
00:33:20,535 --> 00:33:23,895
their job, define the market, define the customer, define the

532
00:33:23,895 --> 00:33:27,415
problem. When you are getting to product

533
00:33:27,415 --> 00:33:31,230
teams, their job should be to set take those problems and

534
00:33:31,230 --> 00:33:34,830
say, we know how to solve those because we understand those

535
00:33:34,830 --> 00:33:38,655
customer problems, and we understand our products, and we know how

536
00:33:38,655 --> 00:33:42,115
those things can come together. In the data realm, it's no different.

537
00:33:42,495 --> 00:33:46,335
We know what problem what questions need answering. We know how we wanna use the

538
00:33:46,335 --> 00:33:49,990
data, what insights we're trying to drive. We know what corners we're trying to

539
00:33:49,990 --> 00:33:53,770
see around, and those data teams know what is in

540
00:33:53,910 --> 00:33:57,495
every single slice of that data lake. Right? They know what's there. Data

541
00:33:57,495 --> 00:34:00,794
visualization experts, data scientists know how to bring that to life,

542
00:34:01,174 --> 00:34:04,695
but you're not gonna, like, draw me a dashboard anymore. That is we're done with

543
00:34:04,695 --> 00:34:08,510
that. Right? We are here to those that middle layer is here to be

544
00:34:08,510 --> 00:34:12,350
the experts that you are paying them so handsomely to be. Right?

545
00:34:12,350 --> 00:34:15,924
So I I I don't wanna cut you off, but I hear 3, you

546
00:34:15,924 --> 00:34:19,525
know, 3 tiers. Yeah. I hear executive, you know,

547
00:34:19,525 --> 00:34:23,280
director level. I hear product management. Yes. And

548
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,880
then I hear the people that I was speaking to earlier, the

549
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,705
the lower, middle, and down. And that's that is a different

550
00:34:30,705 --> 00:34:34,385
way of looking at it. Yeah. And the issue is is

551
00:34:34,385 --> 00:34:38,050
that they all have a role to play. You

552
00:34:38,050 --> 00:34:41,810
have got to get those leaders out of trying to

553
00:34:41,810 --> 00:34:45,315
play all three roles because that's not

554
00:34:45,315 --> 00:34:48,755
their job. Their job needs to be forward looking and outward

555
00:34:48,755 --> 00:34:52,435
looking so that everybody else can be the experts that they are

556
00:34:52,435 --> 00:34:56,219
paying, that we're all you know, companies pay a lot of money for the expertise

557
00:34:56,359 --> 00:35:00,119
at every layer. Let's let them be those experts and do their

558
00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:03,845
jobs. That explains a lot of the failure I saw

559
00:35:03,845 --> 00:35:07,445
in my younger days, and I'm older than you, Frank. I've seen

560
00:35:07,445 --> 00:35:11,220
more. Probably older than you too, Jen. So oh,

561
00:35:11,220 --> 00:35:14,900
Jennifer. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to shorten your name without mentioning it. It's fine,

562
00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:18,020
Jen or Jennifer. It's all good. Just don't call me Jenny. That's the only one

563
00:35:18,020 --> 00:35:21,865
I don't like. Don't do that. But, no, I've seen that. I've experienced

564
00:35:22,085 --> 00:35:25,925
it, and I've wondered why there was this lack of harmony. You

565
00:35:25,925 --> 00:35:29,704
know? And I felt like I wasn't being told what I needed

566
00:35:30,130 --> 00:35:33,329
as as a person at the bottom. And I wasn't being told what I needed,

567
00:35:33,329 --> 00:35:36,769
and instead, I was being told stuff that, you know, I already know how to

568
00:35:36,769 --> 00:35:40,555
do this, and part of what you're saying isn't the right way

569
00:35:40,555 --> 00:35:44,315
to do it. Some of it is. Right. But Yeah. You know? And

570
00:35:44,315 --> 00:35:47,990
it's it's you really did a great job, you know,

571
00:35:47,990 --> 00:35:51,589
spelling that out. And and I I think that's again, I'm gonna

572
00:35:51,589 --> 00:35:55,290
echo Frank earlier and say that's probably the best explanation I've heard of that.

573
00:35:55,935 --> 00:35:58,675
So really good. Fault. And also it's a hallucination.

574
00:35:59,455 --> 00:36:02,990
Articulation. That's the way I'm looking for. Articulated that well.

575
00:36:02,990 --> 00:36:06,830
Alright. Go ahead. I know. It's also like, oh, that's why everything always

576
00:36:06,830 --> 00:36:10,644
was messed up. I don't wanna bring myself more work and and fix

577
00:36:10,644 --> 00:36:14,484
it. But That's one. No worries. Like, it was, like, fundamentally, like,

578
00:36:14,484 --> 00:36:17,845
the the you were trying to, like, get, like, a diesel engine to run on

579
00:36:17,845 --> 00:36:21,670
gasoline or whatever analogy you wanna use. It's just not gonna work no

580
00:36:21,670 --> 00:36:25,270
matter how much, you know, you try. One thought I

581
00:36:25,270 --> 00:36:28,970
had, and this is something that I've I've wondered since I heard it. So,

582
00:36:29,405 --> 00:36:33,085
once upon a time, when I was on a cross functional team, at a

583
00:36:33,085 --> 00:36:36,845
very large, software company, and

584
00:36:36,845 --> 00:36:40,680
for folks who can use LinkedIn, you can figure out who this was. I

585
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,220
was in the office in Washington, DC, and

586
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,644
I was on a cross functional team. And I heard somebody say the phrase,

587
00:36:48,944 --> 00:36:52,625
and it's the first time they used it at that company that I heard it

588
00:36:52,625 --> 00:36:56,070
was, we wanna swim in our own lanes. And I heard that, and part of

589
00:36:56,070 --> 00:36:58,090
my, like, brain was like, uh-oh.

590
00:36:59,590 --> 00:37:02,730
So given that cross functional teams seem to be

591
00:37:03,165 --> 00:37:06,925
crucial for success in this, how do you how do you

592
00:37:06,925 --> 00:37:10,700
address that? Because there's definitely a let's be real. We're dealing

593
00:37:10,700 --> 00:37:14,540
with people. We're dealing personalities and egos. How do you how do you solve the

594
00:37:14,540 --> 00:37:18,235
territorial challenges? Or is it more therapy? Well,

595
00:37:18,235 --> 00:37:21,995
there's prob I would want to pull that person aside and say, can

596
00:37:21,995 --> 00:37:25,540
we talk a little bit about what was said in that meeting? Right. Right. Well,

597
00:37:25,540 --> 00:37:29,299
I was Right. Without the benefit of the I was but a plead in

598
00:37:29,299 --> 00:37:33,135
that situation. But yes. I mean, listen. I think, you

599
00:37:33,135 --> 00:37:36,555
know, without the benefit of a time machine. Right? Mhmm.

600
00:37:36,974 --> 00:37:38,755
I think the reality is

601
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,720
human beings are always difficult. We will always be

602
00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:49,434
difficult. It's never gonna be perfect. Cross

603
00:37:49,434 --> 00:37:53,275
team collaboration and cross you know, just just general cross

604
00:37:53,275 --> 00:37:55,535
functional collaboration is always gonna be challenging.

605
00:37:57,030 --> 00:37:59,610
We all have our own areas of expertise,

606
00:38:02,950 --> 00:38:06,605
but it's the additive power of them that is always

607
00:38:06,605 --> 00:38:10,385
what's gonna make breakthrough innovation happen.

608
00:38:10,445 --> 00:38:14,065
Right? Mhmm. 1 plus 1 is always gonna equal 4.

609
00:38:14,125 --> 00:38:17,839
Right? You're not if you're only working by yourself or you're working within

610
00:38:17,839 --> 00:38:21,680
your own swim lane, you're never gonna get to, like, next level innovation or next

611
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,255
level, you know, whether it's service innovation or it's

612
00:38:25,255 --> 00:38:29,095
technical innovation or it's operational innovation. It doesn't matter. Right? You're

613
00:38:29,095 --> 00:38:32,920
just never gonna get there. And, like,

614
00:38:33,460 --> 00:38:37,140
human like, the human history is just it's like littered

615
00:38:37,140 --> 00:38:40,440
with evidence of this. Right? It's like it's only when

616
00:38:42,155 --> 00:38:45,615
cultures and people have bumped into each other. Right?

617
00:38:46,475 --> 00:38:50,235
The salons of the 18th century when poets and scientists came together,

618
00:38:50,235 --> 00:38:53,810
that's when, like, literally, revolutions happened. Right? Like,

619
00:38:53,810 --> 00:38:57,190
this is how it is how it works. So

620
00:38:58,775 --> 00:39:02,375
so then the only way to deal with it is to deal with

621
00:39:02,375 --> 00:39:05,194
it through sort of nuance and

622
00:39:07,940 --> 00:39:10,039
and sort of diplomacy of,

623
00:39:11,539 --> 00:39:15,305
yes. We do all have to we have to own our own expertise,

624
00:39:15,305 --> 00:39:18,845
but it is a a these are the opportunities. The collaborative

625
00:39:19,225 --> 00:39:22,985
opportunities is where where we're gonna shine. So how do we do

626
00:39:22,985 --> 00:39:26,700
that in a way that makes us all better? You know? I

627
00:39:26,700 --> 00:39:29,900
just think there's no way around it other than to, like, greet it head on

628
00:39:29,900 --> 00:39:33,339
and figure out a way to do it in an as nonthreatening away as possible.

629
00:39:33,339 --> 00:39:36,895
But there's just there's always gonna be

630
00:39:36,895 --> 00:39:40,415
somebody who's gonna be crabby about it, and so then you just gotta figure out

631
00:39:40,415 --> 00:39:44,230
how to, like, make it work with them. But mostly, I think what

632
00:39:44,230 --> 00:39:47,910
you do is you find the people who I don't

633
00:39:47,910 --> 00:39:51,430
know. I'm always the one that's like, yes. Let's all get in a room and

634
00:39:51,430 --> 00:39:55,255
do it. Like, I just think about my last corporate experience was with

635
00:39:55,255 --> 00:39:59,095
a large health care organization in Minnesota. You can do the same thing

636
00:39:59,095 --> 00:40:02,550
on LinkedIn. And I will tell you that one of the most thrilling

637
00:40:02,550 --> 00:40:06,390
days of my career, corporate wide, and we all

638
00:40:06,390 --> 00:40:10,224
have this, right, of, like, days where you just were like, this, I can't believe

639
00:40:10,224 --> 00:40:14,065
I'm getting paid to do this work. Right? The most exciting days of your

640
00:40:14,065 --> 00:40:17,664
work, was a day where we were literally having the

641
00:40:17,664 --> 00:40:20,930
worst day ever. Like, everything was broken.

642
00:40:21,310 --> 00:40:24,770
Things were really, really bad. I mean,

643
00:40:25,630 --> 00:40:27,250
bad. And

644
00:40:30,575 --> 00:40:34,255
3 or 4 of the smartest people I literally have ever worked with in my

645
00:40:34,255 --> 00:40:38,010
career who were pretty high up. We were like, I we were

646
00:40:38,010 --> 00:40:41,630
all directors, VPs, and we

647
00:40:41,930 --> 00:40:45,515
maybe were promoted due to the Peter Principle. Right?

648
00:40:45,515 --> 00:40:49,035
Like, we had all like, we were all really smart people as,

649
00:40:49,035 --> 00:40:52,875
like, contributors, and we'd all gotten promoted and we're managing people, but

650
00:40:52,875 --> 00:40:56,020
we were really, like, we were all really good doers. And then all of a

651
00:40:56,020 --> 00:40:59,859
sudden found ourselves leading organizations going, why are we leading organizations? We were

652
00:40:59,859 --> 00:41:03,575
really good doers. And so that included, like, a really smart architect, a really

653
00:41:03,575 --> 00:41:07,255
smart engineer, a really smart product person, a really smart, you know, like,

654
00:41:07,255 --> 00:41:10,375
strategy person. And all of a sudden, we were all VPs going, how the hell

655
00:41:10,375 --> 00:41:13,670
did we end up here? Anyways, we all got in our room in the room

656
00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:17,430
in our really fancy suits or whatever and, like, with whiteboards and stuff.

657
00:41:17,430 --> 00:41:21,130
And we all went right back to our execution days, and we,

658
00:41:21,414 --> 00:41:24,855
like, literally like, I still have a vision of the,

659
00:41:25,095 --> 00:41:28,855
chief architect, like, loosening his tie, rolling up his sleeves,

660
00:41:28,855 --> 00:41:32,580
and was like, alright. We're gonna figure this out.

661
00:41:32,580 --> 00:41:36,180
And it was like 6 hours of the hardest whiteboarding I have

662
00:41:36,180 --> 00:41:40,015
ever done. And, like, that was so fun. There

663
00:41:40,015 --> 00:41:43,855
was no ego in that room. I was like, Alex, I have no

664
00:41:43,855 --> 00:41:47,215
idea what you're talking about over there. Like, this makes no sense to me. Why

665
00:41:47,215 --> 00:41:50,480
are we doing it this way? And it was because he is, like, 25 times

666
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,600
smarter than me, but, like, I've made him explain it to me. And in doing

667
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,880
so, he found some flaws in his thinking, and we, like, you know, figured it

668
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,435
out. But there were no egos in that room. We figured some stuff out, and

669
00:42:00,435 --> 00:42:04,195
we fixed it. That was thrilling to me. I wanna

670
00:42:04,195 --> 00:42:07,900
be around people like that, not the people who were like, Jen,

671
00:42:07,900 --> 00:42:11,020
get in your lane, you know, kind of stuff. And I think you just gotta

672
00:42:11,020 --> 00:42:14,805
figure out how to be around people like that. That is the best

673
00:42:14,805 --> 00:42:17,945
answer to that because I often wonder I often think about that, and

674
00:42:18,484 --> 00:42:22,085
I hear the term cross functional teams, and, like, I

675
00:42:22,085 --> 00:42:25,770
I know that just the way the wind blows, you'll start

676
00:42:25,770 --> 00:42:29,290
hearing, you know, stay in your own lane and things like that. And, like, I

677
00:42:29,290 --> 00:42:32,835
understand both points of view, but there's a there's a tension

678
00:42:32,835 --> 00:42:36,515
there, and I think that was a really good solution to it. I've I

679
00:42:36,595 --> 00:42:40,115
ever since that happened, like, I'll say 8 years

680
00:42:40,115 --> 00:42:43,760
ago since I heard that phrase, I was like,

681
00:42:44,460 --> 00:42:48,060
that always kinda stuck with me. It was like and then I bumped into somebody

682
00:42:48,060 --> 00:42:51,885
else who was on, a cross functional team

683
00:42:52,025 --> 00:42:55,325
and was very stressed out, couple years later

684
00:42:56,025 --> 00:42:58,525
when I rejoined said company. And,

685
00:43:00,190 --> 00:43:03,869
she's like, oh, it's you know, she was explaining situation. I was like, oh, is

686
00:43:03,869 --> 00:43:07,150
so and so saying that, oh, you gotta stick your own swim lanes again. Yeah.

687
00:43:07,150 --> 00:43:10,875
Yeah. I was like, okay. Oh, yeah. That is an accident.

688
00:43:11,095 --> 00:43:13,755
Right? No. Right. Right. Right. Like, you know, like,

689
00:43:15,630 --> 00:43:19,390
now it's interesting. So I don't have any further questions unless you wanna switch to

690
00:43:19,390 --> 00:43:22,970
the pre canned questions. I love this conversation. This is awesome because it helped Yes.

691
00:43:23,070 --> 00:43:26,595
It helped it helped illuminate a lot of things that I never

692
00:43:26,595 --> 00:43:29,895
understood why the situation was so blanked up.

693
00:43:30,355 --> 00:43:33,415
See, it's therapy, Frank. I'm telling you. It's therapy.

694
00:43:34,250 --> 00:43:38,089
I can look back now on a lot of situations where, I I mean, I

695
00:43:38,089 --> 00:43:41,745
just I you feel like you're stuck in a Dilbert cartoon, and it's

696
00:43:41,745 --> 00:43:45,585
just like, why why does it have to be this way? Or why is it

697
00:43:45,585 --> 00:43:49,105
old? Like, Dilbert's popular for a reason. Like, why is that such a common thing?

698
00:43:49,105 --> 00:43:52,690
Right. And, now that kinda

699
00:43:52,690 --> 00:43:56,369
helps, I have a lot of more perspective than I it is therapy. Very well

700
00:43:56,369 --> 00:43:58,309
done. Bravo. Yes.

701
00:44:00,555 --> 00:44:04,395
Okay. So we can questions. Alright. So you wanna kick us off, or

702
00:44:04,395 --> 00:44:07,950
do you want me? I'll kick us off. How did you find your I know

703
00:44:07,950 --> 00:44:10,270
we're talking about data, but how did you find your way into this line of

704
00:44:10,270 --> 00:44:13,230
work? Did this line of work find you, or do you find this line of

705
00:44:13,230 --> 00:44:16,704
work? I found this line of work,

706
00:44:18,045 --> 00:44:21,405
by a very long and winding road. And what I will just say, I won't

707
00:44:21,405 --> 00:44:25,020
take you through all the nitty gritty details, but, I found this line

708
00:44:25,020 --> 00:44:28,560
of work because as I mentioned earlier in the, in the interview,

709
00:44:29,660 --> 00:44:33,155
my dad is a technologist and my

710
00:44:33,155 --> 00:44:36,515
mom, my mom actually got her start, her

711
00:44:36,515 --> 00:44:39,575
career. She's actually an artist by education,

712
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:44,120
but, didn't wanna be a starving artist. So she went to work in banking

713
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,720
and was a vice president in banking, but was really a

714
00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:50,744
relationships person. Right? She did a lot of things with,

715
00:44:51,945 --> 00:44:55,625
trusts, and she did fundraising late in her career. So she was a really good

716
00:44:55,625 --> 00:44:59,099
relationships person. And so early in my career, what I figured out was that I

717
00:44:59,099 --> 00:45:02,859
was bilingual. I could speak business and I could speak

718
00:45:02,859 --> 00:45:06,265
IT. And, like, back in the day where that was a much,

719
00:45:06,585 --> 00:45:10,365
thicker wall between business and IT, I could speak both.

720
00:45:10,424 --> 00:45:13,790
And, I just always really enjoyed being able to

721
00:45:13,790 --> 00:45:17,550
bring technical people and business people together and be able to

722
00:45:17,550 --> 00:45:20,750
explain those two things, and that always served me well. And that's how I ended

723
00:45:20,750 --> 00:45:24,325
up in this line of work because I really liked being the being the

724
00:45:24,325 --> 00:45:27,925
connective tissue between those two things. That

725
00:45:27,925 --> 00:45:31,420
is awesome. So what is your favorite part of this

726
00:45:31,420 --> 00:45:34,480
gig? Oh,

727
00:45:35,900 --> 00:45:39,665
okay. So what I will say is that as a consultant, I

728
00:45:39,665 --> 00:45:43,505
get to, be a part of lots of

729
00:45:43,505 --> 00:45:47,030
different kinds of companies. So I did work. I worked corporate

730
00:45:47,170 --> 00:45:50,770
and, you know, client side for most of my career. I started

731
00:45:50,770 --> 00:45:53,670
consulting about, 6 years ago,

732
00:45:54,130 --> 00:45:57,715
and and

733
00:45:57,715 --> 00:46:00,915
I would get impatient when I would work with companies. I'd work there for a

734
00:46:00,915 --> 00:46:04,035
while, and then I'd be like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's next? Like you know? And

735
00:46:04,035 --> 00:46:07,630
I I worked a couple places long time, for a long time. My longest gig

736
00:46:07,630 --> 00:46:11,070
was 8 years at one company, and that was fine. But, really, in those 8

737
00:46:11,070 --> 00:46:14,905
years at that one company, it was Capella University. I had 5 jobs in

738
00:46:14,905 --> 00:46:18,505
8 years, so it was never too long. Right? Like, I kinda I get antsy

739
00:46:18,505 --> 00:46:22,050
after a while. And what I really like about consulting is my

740
00:46:22,050 --> 00:46:25,650
ability to go in, learn a ton about a company and a

741
00:46:25,650 --> 00:46:29,025
culture and meet all these different kinds of people and feel like I really get

742
00:46:29,105 --> 00:46:32,805
to experience what it's like working in and with different companies,

743
00:46:34,145 --> 00:46:37,540
but not but then being able to kinda, like, jump around. It's like a sampler.

744
00:46:37,620 --> 00:46:41,320
Right? And I love that because I really find organizations fascinating.

745
00:46:41,380 --> 00:46:43,400
And so it's that's my favorite part.

746
00:46:44,924 --> 00:46:48,285
Interesting. So we have 3 complete the

747
00:46:48,285 --> 00:46:51,885
sentences. The first of 3 is complete the sentence. When I'm not

748
00:46:51,885 --> 00:46:53,744
working, I enjoy blank.

749
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,900
This one is hard because I work a lot.

750
00:47:01,720 --> 00:47:03,900
So I'm gonna say I really enjoy

751
00:47:06,905 --> 00:47:09,865
reading. So I'm a big reader, and I know you have some questions about books

752
00:47:09,865 --> 00:47:12,285
later, so I'll just leave that one. I really enjoy reading.

753
00:47:13,510 --> 00:47:17,270
Cool. So our second one is, I

754
00:47:17,270 --> 00:47:20,790
think the coolest thing in technology today is

755
00:47:20,790 --> 00:47:24,535
blank. I I'm gonna answer this

756
00:47:24,535 --> 00:47:28,375
one with how easy it is to experiment. So especially with things

757
00:47:28,375 --> 00:47:32,140
we talked about like chat gpt and AI, There's such a

758
00:47:32,140 --> 00:47:35,280
low barrier to entry. Like, just being able to go and, like,

759
00:47:35,819 --> 00:47:39,495
play around with stuff and experiment with it. I I think

760
00:47:39,555 --> 00:47:43,315
that's fantastic. You know, again, 15, 20 years ago, you would have had to

761
00:47:43,315 --> 00:47:47,130
have had special access to a university computer or whatever to

762
00:47:47,130 --> 00:47:50,569
be able to do some of this stuff. And now it's just so easy to

763
00:47:50,569 --> 00:47:54,170
just experiment and try things out. I see that with my kids too. I just

764
00:47:54,170 --> 00:47:57,675
love it. That's

765
00:47:57,675 --> 00:48:01,515
cool. And the 3rd and final complete the sentence

766
00:48:01,515 --> 00:48:04,895
is, I look forward to the day when I can use technology to blank.

767
00:48:05,819 --> 00:48:09,440
Okay. I have given this thought. I want a

768
00:48:09,500 --> 00:48:13,155
fully integrated solution of laundry from

769
00:48:13,155 --> 00:48:16,835
hamper to washer to dryer back

770
00:48:16,835 --> 00:48:20,115
to drawers. Like, I don't even wanna touch it. Like, it has to be like

771
00:48:20,115 --> 00:48:23,849
a like a closed system. I don't wanna touch it. I hate

772
00:48:23,849 --> 00:48:27,609
doing laundry. It's like my least favorite thing. I've tried outsourcing as

773
00:48:27,609 --> 00:48:31,245
much of it as possible, but at some point, I do have put it away.

774
00:48:31,625 --> 00:48:34,745
And, like, I have to, like, touch it. And I just I wanna I want,

775
00:48:34,745 --> 00:48:37,805
like, an a totally closed system. That's what I want.

776
00:48:39,150 --> 00:48:42,910
I I have 3 I have 3 boys, and I totally get it. Yes. Yeah.

777
00:48:42,910 --> 00:48:45,490
Yeah. Yeah. You know. Okay. Yeah.

778
00:48:46,414 --> 00:48:50,095
So our next is, share something different about

779
00:48:50,095 --> 00:48:53,795
yourself, but we remind all our guests we're trying to keep our clean rating.

780
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,760
Sure. Of course. Just so you know. Well so I will

781
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,540
share this, and it's something kind of new that I'm really enjoying.

782
00:49:02,465 --> 00:49:05,685
My, oldest son is a freshman,

783
00:49:06,705 --> 00:49:09,685
at in high school, and he has joined his robotics

784
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,700
team. Oh, cool. And they are entering

785
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:18,675
their big competitive season. And in fact,

786
00:49:18,675 --> 00:49:21,335
he is going off to a regional competition

787
00:49:22,355 --> 00:49:25,900
overnight, leaving his mother. I have to put him on a bus. Oh,

788
00:49:25,900 --> 00:49:29,554
no. Oh, no. It's okay. It's okay.

789
00:49:29,580 --> 00:49:33,415
He's done overnight camps before, so, like, we've been I've at least he's

790
00:49:33,415 --> 00:49:37,015
been away from his mama before, but, but he had his

791
00:49:37,015 --> 00:49:40,775
first kinda big competition. They kinda had a practice this last weekend, and he

792
00:49:40,775 --> 00:49:44,470
was he's kind of a big deal on the team, and I'm very

793
00:49:44,470 --> 00:49:48,310
proud of him. And, like, learning all about robotics competition, which is a

794
00:49:48,310 --> 00:49:51,915
big national organization, and I'm really kinda

795
00:49:51,915 --> 00:49:55,755
into it. And so we are a robot robotics family, and it's very

796
00:49:55,755 --> 00:49:59,195
exciting. So That's very cool. Very cool. My

797
00:49:59,195 --> 00:50:02,859
oldest is going to be a freshman in high school, and I was

798
00:50:02,859 --> 00:50:06,640
telling them the other day, like, he's ready. I'm not ready.

799
00:50:07,155 --> 00:50:10,835
Yeah. Just you wait until driver's ed hits, and then it's like a whole

800
00:50:10,835 --> 00:50:14,515
other level. I'm not there yet. I'm I

801
00:50:14,515 --> 00:50:17,400
was hoping for autonomous cars to solve the problem, but

802
00:50:18,740 --> 00:50:21,160
I'm running out of time. Yeah.

803
00:50:22,580 --> 00:50:26,194
You did drop the, the the hint about books. So Audible is

804
00:50:26,194 --> 00:50:30,035
a sponsor. What books can you recommend? Well, I will tell you,

805
00:50:30,035 --> 00:50:33,095
I think my family may may be the top,

806
00:50:34,079 --> 00:50:37,680
purchaser from Audible because all 3 of my all 3 of my boys, my

807
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:41,205
husband and my 2 sons, like, we have the

808
00:50:41,205 --> 00:50:44,745
annual subscription for Audible, and it might last us 2 months

809
00:50:45,125 --> 00:50:47,225
Nice. By the rate that they read read audibles.

810
00:50:48,550 --> 00:50:52,250
Personally, I personally am a big romance novel,

811
00:50:52,790 --> 00:50:56,490
reader, which, I take I share openly.

812
00:50:56,550 --> 00:51:00,365
No shame. And so for the romance readers out there, I will

813
00:51:00,365 --> 00:51:03,885
tell you that the Penny Reid series, the the

814
00:51:03,885 --> 00:51:07,200
beard series. So, Andy, I will tell you, you have quite a good beard.

815
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,440
It's a romance novel, and it's the beard series by Penny Reid. It's

816
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,420
absolutely wonderful, very funny, very sweet,

817
00:51:15,724 --> 00:51:19,484
not suitable for this podcast if it's a family podcast because

818
00:51:19,484 --> 00:51:23,330
it's a little steamy, but it is very good and very sweet. So

819
00:51:24,210 --> 00:51:28,050
That's awesome. That's awesome. You can go to the data driven book dot com or

820
00:51:28,050 --> 00:51:31,490
the data driven book dot com, depending how you wanna pronounce it. You'll get,

821
00:51:31,730 --> 00:51:35,465
one free audio book on us. And, you know, and

822
00:51:35,465 --> 00:51:39,145
if you subscribe and become a permanent annual, or monthly

823
00:51:39,145 --> 00:51:42,890
subscriber, we'll get a little bit of kickback and, help

824
00:51:42,890 --> 00:51:46,490
support the show. And the reason why this is actually funny. The reason

825
00:51:46,490 --> 00:51:50,090
why we kind of are fairly strict not

826
00:51:50,090 --> 00:51:53,665
strict, but we're we're sticking to our guns, so to speak on the

827
00:51:53,665 --> 00:51:57,505
whole profanity thing is largely because obviously there's a professional

828
00:51:57,505 --> 00:52:01,240
image, but largely because I like to listen

829
00:52:01,240 --> 00:52:05,080
to some podcasts, and I can't do that when the kids are in the car.

830
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,875
So it kind of becomes this. It's more of a flexibility thing as opposed

831
00:52:08,875 --> 00:52:12,515
to Totally. You know? Obviously,

832
00:52:12,515 --> 00:52:15,760
I guess those those novels you probably wouldn't be listening to with the kids in

833
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,520
the car. You might those might be better for after the

834
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:22,905
kids go to bed and you're having Exactly. Time. You know?

835
00:52:22,905 --> 00:52:25,485
I'm just saying, but that'll be fine.

836
00:52:26,665 --> 00:52:30,425
Yeah. So where can folks find I'm sorry, Anne. This was your question. Go

837
00:52:30,425 --> 00:52:33,980
ahead. No. I was just can't stop talking today. Where can

838
00:52:33,980 --> 00:52:37,420
folks find out more about you and what you do? So the,

839
00:52:37,819 --> 00:52:41,475
the easiest place is www.tuck point.com.

840
00:52:41,535 --> 00:52:44,675
It's probably the easiest point part, place.

841
00:52:45,535 --> 00:52:49,135
And then also on LinkedIn, I'm at, the at

842
00:52:49,135 --> 00:52:52,960
jg Swanson. I assume you'll have both on your show notes and things like that.

843
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:56,640
Make sure we put that on the show notes. Yeah. Both of those places. So

844
00:52:56,640 --> 00:53:00,055
either for the company or for me personally, those are the 2 easiest

845
00:53:00,055 --> 00:53:03,835
places. Cool. Sounds good. Any parting thoughts?

846
00:53:04,540 --> 00:53:08,380
No. But you guys are delightful. I just just spent this has been a nice

847
00:53:08,380 --> 00:53:12,060
hour to spend with you. I just have loved it. So Well, thank you.

848
00:53:12,060 --> 00:53:15,425
Thank you. We I really appreciate you

849
00:53:15,425 --> 00:53:19,265
illuminating a lot of mysteries that I just assumed were just

850
00:53:19,265 --> 00:53:22,339
part of just that was just the cost of doing business was dealing with these

851
00:53:22,339 --> 00:53:25,380
kind of weird stuff or being in IT. Right? Being one of those weird people

852
00:53:25,380 --> 00:53:29,135
in the basement thing. Like and and and now I kinda I have a lot

853
00:53:29,135 --> 00:53:32,015
more therapy is a great analogy. I I you know, because it's like Yeah. I

854
00:53:32,015 --> 00:53:35,855
know. You walk out of a good therapy section, you're like, that's why. Like, that's

855
00:53:35,855 --> 00:53:39,220
what I feel right now. Yeah. Yeah. Good. It was really good. And I scored

856
00:53:39,220 --> 00:53:42,900
a compliment on the beard. You know, that's always a win. It's a very good

857
00:53:42,900 --> 00:53:46,674
beard. I really like it. I'm digging it. Thank you.

858
00:53:47,454 --> 00:53:51,214
It was a great show, for us as well, and I can't wait

859
00:53:51,214 --> 00:53:54,920
for our listeners to, to get a chance to see it. We just,

860
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:59,000
launched a new service earlier this week, in fact, where people can

861
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,655
subscribe and see videos. These videos behind the scenes,

862
00:54:02,735 --> 00:54:06,415
they've been asking for that for, what, Frank? 7 years

863
00:54:06,415 --> 00:54:10,150
since we started. And we wanted to do it. When

864
00:54:10,150 --> 00:54:13,270
we started. We first started talking about it. We were like, this is this would

865
00:54:13,270 --> 00:54:17,030
be great. And then we just found a platform and the stars

866
00:54:17,030 --> 00:54:20,855
align, and we relaunched, like I said earlier this week. I don't think we

867
00:54:20,855 --> 00:54:24,535
even have any subscribers yet. I I'm a little probably a little too

868
00:54:24,535 --> 00:54:27,735
transparent in that, but we'll see. It's either

869
00:54:28,370 --> 00:54:31,810
look. It's either this is the way we roll. I'll go and subscribe. I'll be

870
00:54:31,810 --> 00:54:35,570
your first. Awesome. Woo hoo. That'd be kind. But it's you know, the

871
00:54:35,570 --> 00:54:38,525
way we look at things a lot of the time is it's like it's an

872
00:54:38,525 --> 00:54:42,125
experiment. You mentioned that earlier when you were talking to your clients. She's that you

873
00:54:42,125 --> 00:54:45,829
do a lot of experiments and see how things roll. Well, if we get

874
00:54:45,829 --> 00:54:49,509
one, awesome. If we get a 100, that'd be nice. You know? But

875
00:54:49,670 --> 00:54:53,454
Yeah. We started the podcast, and we thought we were gonna do, I

876
00:54:53,454 --> 00:54:57,214
don't know what, Frank, 10 episodes. And this is gonna be this is

877
00:54:57,214 --> 00:55:00,970
gonna be around 375 or something like that. Yeah. 348, 3

878
00:55:01,290 --> 00:55:05,050
3. Okay. So almost almost 360, basically. We're Yeah. We're gonna

879
00:55:05,050 --> 00:55:08,625
we're gonna do a 360 retrospective for show 3 60. Sorry. I

880
00:55:08,625 --> 00:55:12,465
spoiled the surprise everyone, but That's okay. It's a good tease.

881
00:55:12,465 --> 00:55:14,645
It's a good tease. That's right. That's right.

882
00:55:16,420 --> 00:55:19,700
Awesome. Cool. Well, thank you so much for having me, you guys. I really enjoyed

883
00:55:19,700 --> 00:55:23,320
it. Thanks. It was great show, and we'll let Bailey finish the show. Awesome.

884
00:55:23,765 --> 00:55:27,525
Thank you, Jennifer, for an excellent show. No longer

885
00:55:27,525 --> 00:55:31,365
will I cringe when someone says digital transformation now that I understand

886
00:55:31,365 --> 00:55:34,840
the true meaning on the term. We know you're busy and we

887
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:38,440
appreciate you listening to our podcast. But we have a

888
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:42,255
favor to ask. Please rate and review our podcast on

889
00:55:42,255 --> 00:55:45,715
Itunes, Stitcher, or wherever you subscribe to us.

890
00:55:46,415 --> 00:55:50,109
You have subscribed to us, haven't you? Having high

891
00:55:50,109 --> 00:55:53,869
ratings and reviews helps us improve the quality of our show and rank us

892
00:55:53,869 --> 00:55:57,484
more favorably with the search algorithms. That means

893
00:55:57,484 --> 00:56:01,325
more people listen to us, spreading the joy. And,

894
00:56:01,325 --> 00:56:04,065
can't the world use a little more joy these days?

895
00:56:05,150 --> 00:56:08,670
So, go do your part to make the world just a little better and be

896
00:56:08,670 --> 00:56:12,483
sure to rate and review the show. Until next time,

897
00:56:12,483 --> 00:56:14,263
this is Bailey signing off.