Have you ever wondered why mental health is

such a critical concern in the architecture profession at the moment?

Join us for part two of my conversation with architects, Doug Hodgson, Doug

shares his thoughts on what to do.

If you're feeling overwhelmed or close to burnout.

And what is practice new works have been doing to safeguard

their teams, mental health.

I catch it all on this episode of architecture business club,

the weekly podcast for solo and small firm architecture

practice owners, just like you.

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For more information.

Now let's continue the conversation with Doug about mental health.

We were talking there about overwhelm and we've talked about a few ideas there

about how people can set their practice up in such a way to try and minimize

that and avoid it from happening.

But for those people that might be listening that are already feeling

overwhelmed or, or even feeling close to burnout from the work that they're

doing, what can we do about it?

Do you have any thoughts on that?

If somebody's listening and they're already feeling really overwhelmed

with the work that they're doing?

Yeah, and it's, it's, it's a tricky one because.

Obviously, Tom and I closed one company to set up another one, and most, most

professionals aren't in that, um, space, you know, the ability to do that.

So I'd say that most important thing is to be kind to yourself, um, and that

is, I often find actually, it's, it's a link to physical health, um, mental

health and has links to physical health.

So, um, have a, be able to sort of step back if you can and,

and, and go somewhere different.

So I often find, um, as we spoke about earlier, connection to

nature is incredibly important.

So we've just moved actually our, well, our new studio is here in, in Bermondsey

and we've stumbled across Park, which I weirdly hadn't been to before.

It's absolutely stunning.

And there were these moments of nature of green space all over the city in London

and all over the country, of course, um, I'd say take the time to go out into

nature during the day, you know, so don't, you know, if you need to take some time

off work, talk to your thoughts, people in the practice about it, we need to talk to

each other more about our mental health.

And if you need to take.

a morning off to go and walk through the park or if you're down and you live

in Brighton and he's gone to the South Downs and just, I'd hope that responsible

employers would say that's fine, that's a mental health, uh, Half day off or

a day off, and it's not a holiday.

It's, uh, to enable you to be better when you come back,

uh, to work the following day.

You know, it's, it is, if we need to treat it more like that, um, it's as though you

are, you've got a cold or flu or whatever, you know, it is, you as an employer

would give them time off to, to do that.

It wouldn't be sneered at.

It wouldn't be counted as being a problem.

It's just that you just need that moment, that breath to, to do that.

I hope that most employers would be understanding of that and I know

that, I mean, from my own experience, I've had times when I've felt overwhelmed

with things or I felt really stressed and particularly when there's a lot on

my to do list and sometimes I'm getting better at becoming self aware of when this

happens and I know that there's things that I can do And it isn't, it isn't

just, oh, well, the thing you have to do is you just have to work a longer day.

You've got to cram in more hours.

You've got to get to the end of that to do list.

We never get to, the end of the to do list.

But actually, um, I've had times when I might have been working on a particular

task one afternoon and it just feels like I'm, I'm wading through treacle.

It's so difficult and it's taking so long.

But then, if I walk away from it and, have an early finish, have a restful

evening, come back to it the next day, I can get the same task done in a fraction

of the time because I've had time to recharge my batteries or another thing

that I'd like to do is I think even during the day, just having a short

period of time out away from my desk.

If I start to feel that way, I will sometimes I'll, I'll go

out and just go, you know what?

At lunchtime, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna sit at my desk or, or sit at home.

I mean, I work from home, so I know this is a little bit different if you

work in an office, but if you work in an office environment, go out, like go out,

walk, take a walk to a, a nearby park or something, just get out in nature.

Even just doing that for half an hour can have a really good impact

on how you're feeling that day.

Definitely.

There's a lot of research around, um, being surrounded

by nature, surrounded by green.

I've got a lot of plants here in the new studio.

Um, that it just, it does, we are, we got to remember we are, we're humans,

we're animals effectively, and we like being out and surrounded by nature.

Um, and I think that often as most of us are city dwellers, I think in the

profession, probably most of us are urban based, um, We can forget that.

And I think that this, this is one of the things where, you know,

we're, we're, we're super aware of.

It's actually as designers, we are designing places where

people live and where they work.

And, um, the spaces between are as important as the buildings themselves.

And that it's a lot of, um, a lot of our current clients,

uh, really recognize that.

And it's about, uh, I think as a profession, we kind of need to

not forget that we also need to sort of live the lives that we are

designing, if that makes sense.

Um, and, uh, it's actually, it's one of the, one of the other things around the

sort of mental health of the profession more generally is do we, uh, as individual

architects, Have the ability to on the, on the current sort of fee structures

and pay structures ever be able to afford to own the same houses that

we're often asked to design for others and live in those same environments

that we're, that we're creating.

And I think for young, um, graduates and, and I see, I see that as being a

real problem in the future for this, um, that the housing crisis is, is

fundamental to architects because.

in two really quite serious ways.

One is obviously that, um, we, we as a profession needs to be better at designing

homes, um, more generally in that sort of was what we're involved with down

in Lewis, for instance, at the Phoenix project, um, our, young architects need

to feel that they can one day live in one of these spaces that they're designing.

Um, and I fear that too much of London's sort of creative, um, Energy is focused on

high net worth individuals from all around the world that just seem to gravitate

here or be encouraged to be here.

And, uh, and then, uh, effectively abused the young sort of creatives,

uh, that are, that are here.

Um, And that has a huge impact on the mental health of, of, uh, young

professionals, uh, who are sort of asking the question, why, you know,

why, why, why, why is this client spending 400 pounds on the toilet brush?

Uh, when I, I, I, I might, they know that said.

a quarter of my salary or something per month.

And it's, it's a, it's a real, there's an issue there.

I think that I'd like to see more from the RIBA, especially, um, but

whatever the ARB do, uh, but the RIBA, um, saying, especially through their

awards program and, um, through the way in which they promote architecture

and talk about architecture.

I think there needs to be far more focus on affordable housing, far less

focus on, um, expensive houses, um, or expensive endeavors, um, that, you

know, who are they for, how many people are they actually for, um, and I think

that it's, it is quite sad, I think, that the, the Sterling, uh, shortlist

this year is, is so bereft of, um, really, you know, A lot of really good

new housing, um, which I was quite shocked by, I think, and actually over

the last couple of years, and if you go to the sort of a house of the year

competition, like, oh, you know what, what are we celebrating as profession.

I would like to just qualify that by saying that I think more

should be celebrated, not less.

Um, and, and, you know, there is space for, for incredible design everywhere.

Um, but I do fear that there is too much concentration on, uh, the sort of, of

our profession on these high net worth individuals that exist within the city.

Yeah.

And I mean, when we look at the population as a whole, that there's such, that's

such a minority of the general population.

And as you say, we have a housing crisis and to have celebration of good

design on more everyday properties.

More everyday projects that's actually accessible for most

people, affordable homes as well.

And that would would be good to see.

Because as you say that, I mean, it must be frustrating for a lot of architects and

designers that they are Spending the days working on, designs for properties that

are such high value that, that it must be just feel like a pipe dream to ever have

the opportunity for them to, to live in a home that they have designed themselves,

yeah, absolutely.

And I think I think I'd like to think that, you know, with

the new targets of the 1.

5 million new homes that are going to be needed within five years

time for later to get reelected.

There needs to be a focus from the profession to be involved in that.

And not only involved to lead it, because it's just.

It would be such a shame if we just got a whole swathe of naughty houses knocked

up by Taylor Wimpy across the country that had absolutely no relevance to any

kind of local condition or anything.

Um, and I, and what is the design life of those anyway, you know,

so, and what are they profession needs to really grasp this.

And, and some people are, aren't being vocal about it.

Uh, like Jay Morton for example, at Bell Phillips, and she's

doing an amazing job on it.

The, this needs to be at the forefront of the discourse.

And I would like to see the RBA on the Channel four news saying we want

to be involved in this and where are, why isn't RBA needs to be out there?

Um, really sort of saying that this is the focus of the profession

for the next five years and.

All those multi million pound houses can be put on pause.

They'll still be there if necessary in, in a few years time.

Um, and I, and I think that would encourage these big house builders

to go to, well, yeah, to maybe engage the profession better

to pay the profession better.

But also, um, that they can't have the excuse of, Oh, well, you know what?

It's too difficult.

It's too difficult to come up with all these different designs.

Let's just knock out stuff that we're just used to doing.

If you need 1.

5 million, then we just have to do what we've always done.

I think just carrying on the way that we've always carried on, I don't think

it's ever is an acceptable answer, um, for the profession that we shouldn't

take it as an acceptable answer.

No, not at all.

Just swinging back to Mental health and well being, um,

Hmm.

prevention.

Prevention is always going to be better than cure, isn't it?

Could we talk a little bit more about what you've, you've tried at NewWorks

to safeguard your team's mental, uh, mental health and wellbeing?

Yeah, of course.

Yeah, I think absolute core of it needs to be.

We need to be true to ourselves.

Um, and then for me, that's about being your authentic self.

And I'm now openly gay, uh, in the construction industry.

And as I feel confident to do that at this point in my career, I haven't always felt

that I've often felt that I was sort of coming out on a regular basis to various.

Various people and there are some sort of horror stories of the reactions

that that would entail But some mostly it was it was people were very very

kind um But I think that we need to do I think we need to call out other

people's behaviors and languages.

Um, when when when people are in those moments and um To safeguard

others well being as well as our own.

Um, but I think that one of the things that um, We do at new works,

which is You different to what we used to do as we completely

restructured, um, our working day.

So, uh, the first hour of the day, if you like, so.

9 till 10 is given over to physical well being.

So everyone an activity they do, either going running, or going to the gym, or

swimming, cycling, long walk to work.

You know, there's these, the space is given over to that physical

well being in the morning.

Um, and that enables you then to then do the sort of the second part, which

is 10 till two, uh, which is then this deep creative work, um, where there's no

emails, there's no phone calls, there's no WhatsApp, uh, limited access to the

internet, um, purely for research basis.

Uh, but no distractions from.

Uh, blogs, I'm sorry, podcasts, uh, or anything else, which is sort of

taking away from the focus of, uh, of what, what you're, what you're

doing, what that creative endeavor is.

Um, after that, the afternoon is then open for collaboration.

So that's meetings with other consultants, with clients.

So that's two till, um, two till five and emails of course, um, during that period.

Then the hour, if you like, thereafter, five till six, or is

to, um, it's for your mental health.

So maybe you want to, you don't want to learn a new language, or

you want to go and meet some friends that are just that little bit

further away, you can get there.

Um, or you want to, um, do something which is very personal to you,

go to a gallery or something.

And so that gives you the space that will just go and meet, you know, just, just.

Go home, you know, uh, and spend some time with the family as I

do having a young three year old son who requires my attention.

Uh, so, you know, it's a, it's about structuring the day to really focus

on the creative work in that, in that morning, which is why we're

did architecture anyway, why we, and what our clients are paying for.

Um, and they, so they, it's about, For us, um, sort of informing our clients

and keeping them sort of and letting them buy into this, uh, way of working by

through saying that this is why this is why you want us to work on your project.

So, you know, help us carve out this space.

And, um, once you get through a few of the jokes of clients going, Oh,

I promise I won't interrupt your.

Your meditation, or I promise I won't, uh, I won't call you after five o'clock.

Uh, you know, because, you know, we'd spend time with the family.

Uh, it's, they, they, they then really do start to see the fruits of it as well.

We've really noticed that we're far more efficient in the way we work.

We're producing far more.

Um, and I think that it is actually a structure to the

working day, which I really hope others start to, start to adopt.

I love it.

I love it.

It sounds, sounds like a fantastic way to structure the day.

Doug, what advice would you give to other practice owners, um, to

safeguard their mental health?

Would you give?

Some similar advice to them.

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Now, back to the show.

Yeah, absolutely.

The first and foremost is like stay connected to the work.

So don't stop drawing.

We stopped drawing for a while.

We're doing markups, but that's not the same thing.

I mean, it's um, we actually get back into the drawing.

There was the sort of the happiest and quite a pivotal

moment in the last year or so.

It was a sort of sat down for two days and drew a street elevation for projects and

by hand and knowing that on the third day.

We'd be presenting it to the client.

So it's a little bit high pressure, but very, very enjoyable.

And I just didn't do anything other than that.

I just, I know this is rather sort of self indulgent possibly, but turned off

emails and shut down everything else.

And, and it was this wonderful thing.

It was a really enjoyable experience working with Tom.

Tom would come along, we'd draw something and then we had, we effectively had

this sort of, this drawing, which had all these sort of flaps of.

I'll see if I can find it, but the, um, uh, and the client was mesmerized and

they sat there and they were just, could, their nose got closer and closer and

closer to the drawing as, as mine did while I was drawing it and sort of, uh,

realized I need a proper drawing board.

Um, it's the, it's that sort of don't lose the connection to the actual

work and why, why you're doing it.

So that would be my biggest piece of advice to, uh, practice owners.

Um, the other would be minimize emails.

You know, treat them as letters really don't engage in the tit for tat.

Um, and that I feel that the more that we treat them as, as letters, others

respond similarly, and especially since we don't respond to emails in

the morning, um, others are really starting to sort of treat us with it.

It's a little bit more care in the way in which they structure

a question or, um, a request.

Um, they realize there's a finite amount of time that they have.

for that response to be sort of, um, organized.

Uh, so it's, it's about respecting other people's time.

Uh, I think Jen more generally, uh, and that's sort of being kinder to

others and sort of that, and it gets reciprocated back, I think, uh, by others

when they sort of realize what it is that you're doing with your day, uh,

and that you're not a filing cabinet.

And you're not a, uh, a sort of an AI bot who can just respond to any

sorts of question in the moment.

Um, so yeah.

Um, and I'd say that all the other thing would be to trust others more.

So whether it's external consultants, you know, bookkeeping, accounting, all the

obvious ones, but, um, publicity, HR, IT.

Um, it can go on and then it should, that should go on to being, uh, you know,

delivery practice, creative practice.

I'd just like to say that I think I'd love to encourage more

really good delivery architects.

who maybe feel undervalued in their current situation to step out and

set up their own practice because we'd love to collaborate with them.

Um, I think that they should be, feel more empowered, um, and more

celebrated within the profession.

And then if they become business owners and they take in their working methods.

And they're sort of more structured possible way of, uh, way of working,

trying to emulate Veritech's confidence in that, in those work stages, then

I, we would love to work with them.

So, um, obviously we'd hope that they would share our values on

working day and, uh, the way they treat their employees as well.

Absolutely.

I think that's a great idea.

I I'd like to give a shout out actually to the humble chartered architectural

technologists out there, because I think that they could potentially make, um,

a great delivery partner for, for many, uh, design focused architects practices.

Um, I would love to see more cross collaboration between

professions of in the industry at a.

Out of sort of membership, well with amongst members, but also a sort

of organizational level as well.

I think that organizations like the RIBA and CIAT.

CIOB, they could do a better job of coordinating things together.

And I think their members would get a lot more value from that collaboration,

uh, across those different, um, bodies.

I think at the moment that people are often in these different silos.

And actually, if we all work together a bit more collaboratively, I think

we could, we could achieve some better results, I think, um, again, that's that

we could probably do a whole episode on that story for another day, perhaps.

Yeah.

um, so are there any, are there any other steps that you think we could,

we could all take to improve mental health across the industry as a whole?

I think it's really sort of similar to what we were talking

before, and that's about collaborating, more specializing and Um, the respecting

each other's skill sets, and I think that if we if we haven't, I think, as

you were just saying, the architectural technologists, and I think that if if

there's a way in which the I think the R.

O.

B.

A.

needs to be more responsible here, there needs to be more, um, sort

of realizing this is important.

Part of their role is to, um, is to sort of facilitate it.

Bye.

Those kind of relationships and, um, and be more supportive of, of practices.

Um, I think, you know, one of the, going back to the Bartlett again,

but, um, when we left the Bartlett, we were just sort of chucked out into

the wider world and they ignore you for years unless you're successful.

You know, the Bartlett only came back to us like 10 years

later after we were in there.

40 under 40.

And then suddenly there was all arms open like, Oh, you're great.

I'm like, where have you been for the last 15 years?

And I think that discarded into the wilderness.

And I, I think that the RBA have a similar position.

I think that they need to be far more Progressive in what they do.

And, um, I think that they need to be more inclusive and, um, representative, and

they need to be really pushing an agenda for more diversity within the profession.

And I think that as a wider industry, uh, mental health in one industry,

that the only way in which the industry is going to, uh, I believe survive

our profession within the industry is going to survive really in the

longterm is to become more diverse.

Um, and be more effective with communities and to be more

supportive of the individuals that are working on the projects.

I think the industry needs to be more respective of what the architects provide

to the whole design team, the project team, and therefore renumerated and

correctly in comparison to all the other people within, within the industry.

Um, and.

As a profession, we need to be more respectful of the individuals within

and provide hope and roots for young people from more diverse backgrounds

to, to be able to access the profession.

Otherwise we will become an irrelevance.

Um, I think there's a, As a group, as a profession, um, and that's, we can,

and that's, we can structure restructure education to be more reflective of that.

And I think that that requires a completely reset on, on part one and

part two and part three, um, where as far less years required in full time

education, I think there's the LSA model is a really good one, but I still think

that the whole thing can be shortened.

Um, at least to achieving a level of part two after four years, um, you

don't need to keep repeating years like third year is a repeat of second

year, fourth and fifth year are pretty much repeats of third year.

So if you can have maybe two years in education full time, and then a

year out in practice, I suggest six months in creative, six months in.

Uh, then back to education full time for your effectively your

fourth year, um, in the process.

And then after that fourth year, that's your part two, then into

profession and, uh, working towards like a seventh, eighth year when you're

then sort of, you've gained enough experience to be taking a part three.

Um, to become a professional.

So I don't think that we're endangering the general public through sort of casting

these out too young and experienced.

I say, I'd say that they would be more experienced.

They'd have more opportunity to learn from practice, um, but with a much less.

outlay, um, and debt burden, um, being put on young people.

Um, and also actually just to add, I think that that year in

the middle, that sandwiched year should be organized by the RIBA.

It should be a responsibility of the RIBA to make it, uh, a

requirement of charter practices that they take on these part ones.

And so that you have a guaranteed job and income during that third year.

And so that you can enter the education with the knowledge that you can

get to the end of it and afford it.

And I think it's absolutely astonishing that part ones are

expected to try and find their own job.

I mean, it's, it's, it's At the whim of, uh, employers.

Again, it's the, it's the basis that we were talking about earlier and the

education system being broken, but the, um, it shouldn't be like that.

And you shouldn't, they shouldn't have to be negotiating their own pay or

having to work unpaid in some places, um, when it's really part of the education.

So, um, yeah, I think there needs to be more support for young people.

Doug, um,

What would be the main thing that you'd like everyone to

take away from the conversation?

I think the main thing is that architecture is important.

And, um, but it's not so important that we need to kill

young architects in the process.

And I think that we need to be kinder to ourselves as the, um, sort

of, more senior people within the profession, um, to as well, but we

also need to be kind of throughout.

So, um, I think that's that there's a, there's an over requirement on, on

young people in the profession, I think to take a lot of the heavy burden.

Um, and then I think that we're without being, uh, mentally

and physically healthy.

Um, I think that the profession will suffer and we'll, and

we will become more under.

under the pressure of, um, others within the industry who are, who

are very large and, um, powerful and well, well financially supported.

So, um, be more, if we can be more agile, collaborate more, talk to one another

more within the profession, I think that that will be, um, for the betterment of

everyone within the profession and the death and thereby also the betterment

of, Architecture in this country, and I think we'll have better buildings will

have more sustainable buildings and we'll have hopefully will be more engaged in the

housing crisis and how that is resolved.

Because as of it will have more practices working across large projects, where

we're specializing in the design, and then others who may be the big builders can

have more faith and can be delivering.

sort of at the other end.

Um, so I think that's what I'd like to segue.

That would be good to see.

Doug, is there anything else that you, you wanted to say that we haven't covered?

Um, I thought we were covering quite a lot, but I think

possibly just around the planning system.

Now, this is obviously currently under review and, um, which is good to see,

but I fear that unless the profession gets more involved in the conversation.

We're not going to be able to enact the change that's required, which

is around improving the quality of the buildings that are being these

mass housing builders are going to be building over the next five years.

So we need to be far more within that.

And we need the reset of, of that.

I think that there's, there's a lot.

should be done with communities and communities should be involved

in an architecture and we should be respectful of communities, but

we should engage with communities.

And I think having sort of CICs and other organizations or CLTs, um, where.

The actual profession is then responding to the requirements.

Um, it's going to be a much more fruitful way in the long term of achieving

these, these large numbers of, of houses that we do need, we do need to build.

Um, but I just think they need to be respectful of local conditions.

Absolutely.

Doug, um, this has been a really great conversation.

It's, been great to have the opportunity to talk to you about this.

I, I do have one other question, and it's, it's not related to, um, Well, I suppose

it kind of loosely is related to wellbeing because, um, I love to travel and

discover new places and get out and about.

And, um, I just wondered if you could, you could tell me about one of your favourite

places and what you love about it.

um, I was definitely connected to wellbeing.

Um, I think that everyone needs a sort of a stabilizing place.

I feel and currently that stabilizing place for me is spending time

with my son, who we adopted a year and a half ago in our garden.

Um, because at the end of the garden, there's a fence and then

there's a field and then there's a really long view beyond.

And, uh, it's just a really wonderful space.

Um, where we sort of, we had that connection to nature, but we had to spend

time together and, um, this is why we sort of catch the sun every now and again.

Um, but it's, Yeah, it's a wonderful space.

And I think that the other thing is about, um, favorite places.

I think often our mental health, we need for our mental health.

We need to somewhere that we can go to sort of in our, in our sort of our mind.

And mine for me is, uh, my grandma's, uh, house, uh, in Somerset where I

spent a lot of time, I was often shipped off to Somerset, uh, weeks on end.

And, um, I spent an awful lot of time gardening with her in her garden.

So I.

I remember that very, you know, very vividly.

And, uh, at Christmas time, we'd then bring in most of the garden inside

and we'd sort of chop down the holly tree and bring it in and completely,

completely cover the house in greenery.

So I feel that a lot of, actually maybe a lot of my sort of, uh, want

to be outside and gardening and sort of lot hunting has comes from

that relationship with my grandma.

Um, and so, yeah, I think, um, that, that those sorts of spaces is what

I, what I feel most connected to or

Oh, that sounds lovely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, uh, I love, uh, I love getting out into, I love going out into the garden

and into the woods and into nature.

I am, I'm a terrible gardener though.

I will readily admit that.

My wife is the one that's the, the green fingered member of our household.

So she tends to like, tends to the, the plants and the flowers and things.

Which actually reminds me, she's away for a couple of days and she

wanted me to water her plants and I've actually forgotten to do it.

So, um, I'd be in trouble if I don't, if I don't go and do that today.

So Doug, thank you so much again for coming on the show.

Really appreciate you um, sharing and talking about this

really important topic with me.

If people want to connect with you online, where's the best

place for them to do that?

Um, probably through LinkedIn.

Um, I think, uh, I'm trying to be better on that now.

Uh, I know my business partner, Tom, is, is, is far more

sort of linked in than I am.

Uh, But that's a, that's a really good space.

We're also on Instagram, um, and, uh, as new works and, um, or, or email us,

uh, studio New works with a hyen.net.

Uh, and, uh, we'd love to, love to hear from you, especially if you're a

delivery practice, you know, or, uh, we'd like to collaborate on on any project.

That's brilliant.

And, um, Doug, do you want to remind everyone of your, your

website address again, please?

Yes.

So we are, uh, ww New Works with a hyphen in middle, uh, net.

Got it.

Perfect.

Thanks again, Doug.

Fantastic.

Thank you, John.

Have a great day

Next time I chat with Fabio.

Zammit about how you can generate more leads from your website.

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