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Matt Edmundson: Well, hello there.

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Welcome to the e-Commerce podcast
with me, your host, Matt Edmundson.

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The E-Commerce podcast is all about
helping you deliver e-commerce.

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Wow.

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And to help you do just that I am
chatting with today's guest, Kevin

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Wiles, about why SEO is not just about
the search engines but better websites.

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It's been such a while, such a
long time actually, since we've

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had anyone on the show about seo.

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So I'm excited to get into this, Kevin,
but before you and I jump into that,

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let me suggest a few other eCommerce
podcast episodes that I think.

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You will enjoy listening to.

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So check out how SEO rankings can help
you improve your customer experience

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with Nick Trueman, the legend.

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That is Nick Trueman.

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Uh, and also check out the three
pillars of SEO with Alina Ghost.

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Uh, that two episodes
definitely worth checking out.

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You can find them, uh, as well as
our entire archive of episodes on our

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website for free at ecommercepodcast.net.

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Uh, and on our website you can
also sign up for our newsletter.

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And each week we will email you
these links that we mention along

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with the notes and the links from
today's conversation with Kevin.

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You can get that direct to
your inbox totally free.

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How amazing is that?

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Now this episode is brought to you
by the e-commerce cohort, which helps

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deliver e-commerce Wow to your customers.

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Kevin, I am sure you have come
across a whole bunch of folks.

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Right.

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Stuck With that e-commerce website,
or they've got siloed into one or

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two areas they're just working on
and miss the whole big picture.

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Well, enter e-commerce
cohort to solve this problem.

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It's a lightweight membership group with
guided monthly, monthly sprints that cycle

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through all the key areas of e-commerce.

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The sole purpose, uh, of which
is to provide you with clear

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actionable jobs to be done.

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Yes.

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So you will know what to work
on, uh, and uh, you'll get the

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support you need to get it done.

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So, whether you are just starting out
an e-commerce or if, like me, you are

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a well established eCommercer slash
e-commerce dinosaur, uh, I encourage

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you to definitely check it out.

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Visit ecommercecohort.com.

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That's ecommercecohort.com.

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Uh, or if you'd like, just email me
with any questions that you've got and

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I'll try my level best to answer them.

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You can reach me at uh
matt@ecommercepodcast.net, and of course

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you can also email me with any comments
or thoughts you've got about the show.

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We'd love to hear what you've got to say.

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Now let's jump into the
conversation with our fab guest.

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Kevin is a passionate, technical SEO lead
with a career history of working with

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big household names across New Zealand.

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Oh yes, the Kiwis, uh, and
the United Kingdom, including

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Halford's and Furniture Village.

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Kevin, thanks for coming on the show.

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Great to have you here.

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Super excited to be talking about SEO.

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How are we doing?

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Kevin Wiles: All good.

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Thank you.

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I'm recovering from brightonSEO, so my
voice is a little croaky, but all good.

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Um, lots of knowledge takeaways from that.

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So yeah.

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Excited to be on the podcast.

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Matt Edmundson: Fantastic.

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Well, it's good to be here and
thank you for, we were just talking

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before we hit the record button that
you may be a little bit fatigued

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from the, uh, from all the stuff.

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Kevin Wiles: I feel like if you're
an SEO and you woke up today and

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you're not tired and fatigued, you
didn't do brightonSEO properly.

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Matt Edmundson: is that,
is that how that works?

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Is that just do

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Kevin Wiles: with the new model that
they have on the website every year?

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Matt Edmundson: the tagline,
uh, on the, on the landing page.

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You guaranteed you'll be
knackered and tired the day after.

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Pretty much.

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It's a sign up now.

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You'd be like, Okay, I'm in.

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I'm in.

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So what happened at Brighton SEO
that made it so epic this year?

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Kevin Wiles: Um, I think, I think for
me it's just I typically go to Brighton

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and, um, use that time to a) go to some
of the fantastic talks, but then also use

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at time to network with lots of people
that live like Liverpool, New Castle,

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all across the different, the country.

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Um, and typically that just
means you start networking.

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You start talking, it's by the beach.

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Nice sea views that leads to
a few beers, which then leads

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to a hangover in the morning.

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Um, and I think that just over a three
day period, so I usually typically,

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um, head up on the Wednesday,
come back, uh, on the Friday.

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Um, it's a long way in a car.

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Matt Edmundson: Oh yeah.

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I mean, where did you drive down from?

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Kevin Wiles: Uh, so I'm based
in Stratford-upon-Avon, so it

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took about three hours there.

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Five and a bit back.

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Matt Edmundson: That does not sound fun.

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Do you, have you heard of a train?

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I don't know.

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Uh.

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Kevin Wiles: I have the, so about trains
and with all the train strikes, I was

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like, I think I'd rather drive than be
stuck at, at train station, just being

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like, I just wanna be at home now.

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Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, fair play.

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Fair play.

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So did you, um, did you take
lots of notes at Brighton seo?

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Have you got lots of new ideas.

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Kevin Wiles: I did, I actually took
some advice this, this time around.

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So typically I, I go and geek out
and do all the tech things around

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artificial intelligence and machine
learning and eCommerce SEO, and this

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time around there's actually some
good advice about going to do talks

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that you wouldn't typically do.

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So things like, Hey, I'm not a digital
PR person, so going and sitting in

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some of those digital PR talks to
just learn some new stuff, I guess.

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Um, and there's some fantastic talks
specifically around, uh, agency growth,

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culture, uh, preventing burnout,
that sort of stuff, which was, um, I

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don't think it's talked about enough.

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Mm-hmm, let's say seo, but digital
as a whole about, uh, we, our

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laptops for enormous amount of time.

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Oh, we do?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Every day.

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Um, so those, those talks are really
insightful and good again, where some

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tips of, I should probably get out more.

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Doing less SEO and more walks and stuff.

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So I feel like a lot of my
life is just, uh, work seo, and

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then you get FOMO missing out.

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And so yeah, those, those talks were good.

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Uh, but it's, it's, it's fantastic.

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I think it's a great initiative
particularly for, um, The younger

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people coming up in the industry to
have an opportunity to talk and learn

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those things that essentially will
keep SEO alive for years to come.

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That's if robots don't kill us off first.

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But,

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Matt Edmundson: you never know, right?

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You never know.

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Never know.

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I've seen the Matrix,
so I know what happens.

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Um, so what was your biggest
takeaway from, from the conference?

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Kevin Wiles: Um, I think that search is
advancing is always the biggest takeaway

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I take from many of these events, whether
it's Brighton, Search Love, Moscon stuff.

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I think for me, the core principles
of SEO haven't really changed since I

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started like 12 years ago, 14 years ago.

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And that was before Google even existed.

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I like left college and I fell into seo.

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Um, but I think that it's, it's
advancing at such a rate, but actually

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it's, it's not in the same instance.

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I, Hey, the core principles
around, is it technically sound?

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Is the site optimized for speed?

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Is it.

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Is facet navigation from
most point of view done for a

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customer and an SEO benefit.

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Yeah, I think those things have stayed
the same, but I think it's just insightful

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to come away and be like, there's
now GPT three to automate content.

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Kind of there's a big caveat there.

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Don't go and do that on category
pages and that stuff cause that's not

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great and Google doesn't like that.

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But I think just seeing how
technology is helping the industry

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advance is the biggest takeaway.

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Um, but it's always
learning something new.

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Always.

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Yeah.

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I think whenever you, you think
you are at that point where there's

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something you can't learn, someone
somewhere has done something that

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you're like, Oh, that's cool.

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Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

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That's the, um, I, I, and that's,
for me, that's the appeal of

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going to things like that.

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They're usually far away.

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They're usually expensive, you
know, in terms of time and just the

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cost of getting there, I suppose.

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And that's before you've paid the
entry price, whatever that is.

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And so there, there are a few conferences
that I would sort of entertain going to.

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And it's that, it's, for me,
it's the whole idea generation.

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That's the value in going there.

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And you sit and you listen to other
people, and I dunno if your mind does

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this, Kevin, but my mind certainly is I
start to, I've sat there with my notebook

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and I start to wander in my thinking
and I just jot down all my crazy ideas.

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And you've always found something,
you know, and it's like,

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Kevin Wiles: Yeah, definitely.

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And I think, I think, you know, um, I
dunno about you, but like I pretty much

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work from home full time now, right?

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Like before when I was at Halfords
I was like full-time in the office

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and you're then talking to people,
networking, talking about different,

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you know, bouncing things off
merchandise about how you can do,

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uh, PRP, optimizing, et cetera.

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And I think now going to Brighton, you
actually get to speak to other SEOs,

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whereas at home, as much as I'm trying.

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I've got a nine month old kitten.

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She just doesn't want to talk SEO with me.

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She just looks at me like, I'm
bizarre who wants her dinner.

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And then that's it.

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So going to Brighton SEO gives me
the opportunity to actually talk

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and bounce the ideas off other
SEOs and try and problem solve.

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And I think that's with, with any
event you go to, um, IRX in Birmingham,

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for example, it's happening this
week or, or won't be when this is

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aired, but it's happening in October.

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You know, it's a great opportunity
to go and talk to uh, eCommerce

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platforms and suppliers and see
what some of those people are doing

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in the tech and advancements that
aren't holistically within seo,

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but will have an impact for seo.

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You know, you just look at things like
split testing software where it's used

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for a user benefit, but those aren't
implemented correctly, suddenly has

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an impact on site speed, which then
from an SEO point of view, You're sat

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there going, Let's not do any of this.

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But there's different benefits and I think
it's, it's good going to those events

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cuz you get to start to understand the
wider picture of like, SEO isn't the only

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channel that exists and SEO isn't the only
important thing that exists in eCommerce.

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Mm-hmm..

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Um, and just to network with cool people.

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There's lots of cool, fascinating people
in SEO and tech and eCommerce that you

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just wouldn't get exposed to because as
much as you wanna talk to 'em on Twitter,

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so do probably a hundred other people.

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Whereas in Brighton, you can bump into
them, buy them a coffee, a beer, chips,

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whatever it might be, and start to just.

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Just pick their intelligent brain apart
and, and find something, which to your

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point, you then come away with ideas.

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And I think most of my creative
ideas are always, they start at

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Brighton, but they sort of come to
fruition when I'm back home on walks.

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Sat in front of the TV when I think.

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Oh, I could take that idea that I didn't
think I could use for any clients and

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I could actually use it by tweaking
it and doing this, this, and this.

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And before, you know, you've
got like these cool ideas.

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The downside to that is you've gotta put
a commercial value behind those ideas.

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Or actually try and put a, Hey client,
if we go and do this, is this a benefit?

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Rather than just, I've got this
cool idea, it's gonna take a

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hundred hours, but it's cool.

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Um, which is the, the, the,
always the impact of seo.

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Like there's a hundred things to do.

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What, what do you need to do to actually.

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You need to be able to prove
what you should and why.

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Yeah.

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Rather than just here's a list
of things and go and fix them.

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Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

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No.

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Brilliant.

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Brilliant.

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Okay, so let's, uh, let's rewind a
little bit and, um, let's not make any

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assumptions, uh, of, from, for people
listening to the show because I think SEO

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for years has been one of those things
where people have either um, ignored

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00:11:03,180 --> 00:11:09,750
it completely or they've, um, they've
succumbed to whoever calls them that

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00:11:09,755 --> 00:11:15,330
day, uh, and promises to get them on page
one for like, you know, uh, of Google.

242
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Um, and we've all had those phone calls
from SEO agencies promising us a world

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and delivering absolutely bugger all.

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Um, you know, it's that kind
of, um, reputation, isn't it?

245
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So, Seo, is it?

246
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Let's start off with this question, right?

247
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Is SEO part of the dark arts?

248
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Is it just like a witchcraft?

249
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Uh, is probably my question

250
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. 
Kevin Wiles: I, I think for a long time,
if I look back at the days when I first

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started seo, which was, like I said
before, it, it was SEO wasn't a thing.

252
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Um, I don't think it was a dark art.

253
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I think that we, as SEOs did things
that weren't ideal for, for the

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user, but knew we could get away with
them, tech wasn't advanced back then,

255
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Altavista was the biggest search engine.

256
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I remember working on sites where
white text on a white background

257
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with all your keyword stuffed at the
bottom, and you could rank number

258
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one and like Yellow Pages site
on your own website to get links.

259
00:12:10,620 --> 00:12:15,000
I think we as SEOs have kind of
sold this magic because we believe

260
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that's how it needs to be sold
as a product to get sales in.

261
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Yeah.

262
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Um, but it, it's like most things, it's
just a methodical approach of saying,

263
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Okay, if Google guidelines say this,
what does that actually mean for me?

264
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And I'm not saying, Hey, Google's
guidelines are always fundamentally

265
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correct because they're, there
needs to be context behind

266
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what that recommendation is.

267
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But I definitely don't
think it's a dark art.

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I think, um, it's just
understanding, let's take a

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retail shop, right, for example.

270
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Let's imagine you've got the best
shop ever, but then what you've gone

271
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and done is blacked out the windows
because you don't want anyone to see in.

272
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Well, probably customers won't
come in because they might

273
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think you're closed to renovate.

274
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And go actually maybe it's just a bit
weird a shop, but they don't wanna go

275
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into that and SEO's the same, right?

276
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It's, Hey, you've got the
best content in the world.

277
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But then you've not got your tech
stack set up correctly and you've

278
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not got site speed set up, or
there's issues with JavaScript.

279
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Well, suddenly Google can't see any of
that content to help your shop front

280
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be visible for different keywords
and then suddenly no one comes.

281
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And I think it, it is just that simple.

282
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Um, I think we have just mis-sold it.

283
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There's been lots of kind of like
statements released that probably

284
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aren't factually correct or
slightly tweaked to push an agenda.

285
00:13:30,420 --> 00:13:33,959
Um, and that's made people, particularly
with less understanding of seo, have

286
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this view to your point that is.

287
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A dark art and it's magic.

288
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And for years it was like, well,
I can just do PPC and I know

289
00:13:40,755 --> 00:13:43,635
exactly what I'm getting back
because I spend X and I get X, Y.

290
00:13:43,785 --> 00:13:45,915
And it's much easier to,
And even that's true today.

291
00:13:46,094 --> 00:13:48,314
When I was at Halford's, it
was cool, but if we spend this

292
00:13:48,314 --> 00:13:49,724
at ppc, we can get this back.

293
00:13:49,935 --> 00:13:51,704
And what can you do from
an SEO point of view?

294
00:13:51,704 --> 00:13:53,025
And then you start doing forecasting.

295
00:13:53,474 --> 00:13:57,074
But none of that forecasting is
robust enough and still isn't today.

296
00:13:57,074 --> 00:14:01,064
There's lots of modeling and stuff you can
do, but I, I still don't think it gives.

297
00:14:02,430 --> 00:14:03,750
Actually, this is what you can get.

298
00:14:03,750 --> 00:14:07,140
Because hey, the caveat is, well,
if devs don't go and do this, or the

299
00:14:07,140 --> 00:14:10,500
head of e-com goes and turns off the
Black Friday page each year and then

300
00:14:10,505 --> 00:14:13,410
creates another one, suddenly that
forecast is all thrown into doubt.

301
00:14:13,510 --> 00:14:13,950
Yeah.

302
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Out of your control.

303
00:14:15,810 --> 00:14:16,170
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

304
00:14:16,260 --> 00:14:17,130
No, fair enough.

305
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:22,185
I mean, if I'm if I'm Halford's,
I get the value of seo, right?

306
00:14:22,185 --> 00:14:25,695
I'm a big site and I, I'm,
I'm, I, I, I can see that.

307
00:14:25,695 --> 00:14:30,705
But if I'm, if I'm Rob's Car Parts,
you, I've just got a little car part

308
00:14:30,705 --> 00:14:33,945
shop, uh, on the back streets of
Liverpool, I'm thinking, you know what?

309
00:14:33,945 --> 00:14:34,995
I'm gonna set up a website.

310
00:14:35,415 --> 00:14:39,435
Is SEO something that
he should think about?

311
00:14:39,465 --> 00:14:40,935
Is it, or is he just gonna
look at Halford's and go

312
00:14:40,935 --> 00:14:42,105
there's no way I can compete.

313
00:14:42,105 --> 00:14:43,485
I'm not gonna get on page one.

314
00:14:43,935 --> 00:14:46,635
Um, so why should I even think about SEO?

315
00:14:47,325 --> 00:14:47,655
Kevin Wiles: Yeah.

316
00:14:47,655 --> 00:14:50,565
I think, and if this is where I was
talking to that like the advancements

317
00:14:50,565 --> 00:14:54,975
of search, I think maybe many years
ago that have been this, we can get you

318
00:14:54,975 --> 00:14:59,055
ranking potentially for these high volume
search them, cuz we could do lots of

319
00:14:59,565 --> 00:15:01,635
sort of like obscure shady link building.

320
00:15:01,965 --> 00:15:05,745
I think now it's much tougher to compete
at a national level for things like car

321
00:15:05,745 --> 00:15:10,635
parts or mot for example, against Kwik
Fits and Halfords, but where you can win

322
00:15:10,635 --> 00:15:14,745
as a like smaller brand is understanding
what that search actually returns.

323
00:15:14,745 --> 00:15:20,415
And what I mean by that is if I
go and search, um, Mot booking for

324
00:15:20,415 --> 00:15:23,535
example, what I'll probably get is
Google saying, Hey, we think you're

325
00:15:23,535 --> 00:15:26,385
in Stratford-upon-Avon and here's
some garages in Stratford-upon-Avon,

326
00:15:26,535 --> 00:15:30,045
which in some instances may not
even have a halford or a Kwik fit.

327
00:15:30,045 --> 00:15:33,015
Some of the big brands for term because
they don't have a garage that close.

328
00:15:33,285 --> 00:15:35,925
And that's the kind of sweet
spot is Google's now starting to

329
00:15:36,315 --> 00:15:37,605
understand different search queries.

330
00:15:38,755 --> 00:15:41,535
Actually we think that is a local query
and therefore you have an opportunity to

331
00:15:41,535 --> 00:15:43,814
rank free maps or for the local stuff.

332
00:15:43,814 --> 00:15:46,454
So I think it is becoming more
of a level playing field and

333
00:15:46,454 --> 00:15:47,805
definitely has more value.

334
00:15:48,194 --> 00:15:53,625
Um, but it is still the big
players typically rank and win

335
00:15:54,194 --> 00:15:55,454
across the big, the big sites.

336
00:15:55,454 --> 00:15:57,680
And the, the other is
absolutely true as well.

337
00:15:57,704 --> 00:16:00,584
When I was at Halfords, we actually
started to lose ground for things like

338
00:16:00,584 --> 00:16:02,714
mountain bikes and tires and stuff.

339
00:16:07,344 --> 00:16:11,985
Um, local landing pages, and that meant
that some of the smaller brands and

340
00:16:11,985 --> 00:16:14,805
that we then had to go and do strategy,
we had to build our local pages out.

341
00:16:15,015 --> 00:16:18,135
And there's a post that I did recently
about, um, a small convenience

342
00:16:18,140 --> 00:16:21,645
brand called Select and Safe near
me, and they have the same issue.

343
00:16:21,645 --> 00:16:24,985
They have a main website, but
no dedicated local landing

344
00:16:25,005 --> 00:16:27,055
pages for say convenience store.

345
00:16:30,425 --> 00:16:33,450
And people are trying to find those
products or services close by.

346
00:16:34,110 --> 00:16:34,500
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

347
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:35,250
Yeah.

348
00:16:35,770 --> 00:16:40,704
I was, when I was sort of coming
through the ranks of e-commerce, Uh,

349
00:16:40,704 --> 00:16:44,754
I've seen stuff come and go around,
um, seo and I've seen stuff come and

350
00:16:44,754 --> 00:16:48,984
go about, around a whole, and it seemed
to me maybe about, I wanna say about

351
00:16:48,984 --> 00:16:53,905
five years ago, maybe seven years ago,
content marketing was big on the scene.

352
00:16:53,905 --> 00:16:57,594
You know, HubSpot kind of came across
and said, Do content marketing.

353
00:16:57,954 --> 00:16:59,724
Um, inbound is the way of the future.

354
00:16:59,724 --> 00:17:02,814
Get everybody coming to you rather than
doing the megaphone and sharing out.

355
00:17:03,105 --> 00:17:08,295
The whole idea being you go on the web,
you do some research, you find a question

356
00:17:08,295 --> 00:17:13,125
that somebody is asking, and you write a
blog post with the question as the title.

357
00:17:13,125 --> 00:17:16,275
In theory, you would then rank
for that on Google and that would

358
00:17:16,275 --> 00:17:17,775
bring traffic back to your website.

359
00:17:17,835 --> 00:17:22,425
And it was always, that was a stage
where you were told that was easy

360
00:17:22,425 --> 00:17:24,315
to do than say, rank for a product.

361
00:17:24,315 --> 00:17:28,485
So, um, I have, uh, a company vegetology.

362
00:17:28,695 --> 00:17:29,985
The products sat on my desk here.

363
00:17:30,909 --> 00:17:34,149
It's a vegan supplement, an Omega
3 supplement, which is awesome.

364
00:17:34,750 --> 00:17:39,550
Um, and so there was a whole
strategy then done around, let's

365
00:17:39,550 --> 00:17:42,820
just write a load of blog posts
around Omega 3, does omega 3 work.

366
00:17:42,820 --> 00:17:44,770
Why should I take Omega
3, blah, blah, blah, blah.

367
00:17:44,860 --> 00:17:46,840
And you do all these blog posts
and you put 'em on the blog.

368
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:52,030
And yes, they do bring traffic in,
but is that still something that is

369
00:17:52,030 --> 00:17:55,780
relevant for today or is that kind
of gone by the wayside as well?

370
00:17:56,379 --> 00:17:58,179
Kevin Wiles: I think it's,
it's definitely still relevant.

371
00:17:58,179 --> 00:18:01,854
I think it, its only relevant
if you're gonna do it and be

372
00:18:01,854 --> 00:18:03,114
the expert in that content.

373
00:18:03,144 --> 00:18:06,864
So I'll use a Halfords, for example,
when I first joined halford's, we owned

374
00:18:06,955 --> 00:18:09,774
pretty much all the commercial terms
related to all the bike categories.

375
00:18:09,834 --> 00:18:09,925
Mm-hmm.

376
00:18:10,389 --> 00:18:14,514
, but we didn't have anything that would
be like, uh, how to find the right

377
00:18:14,519 --> 00:18:17,425
size bike or how to measure your child
for your bike or the Mountain Bike

378
00:18:17,429 --> 00:18:19,074
buying guide, or whatever it might be.

379
00:18:19,225 --> 00:18:19,614
Yeah.

380
00:18:20,094 --> 00:18:23,455
And then when we started to do that
content, uh, for caveat here, just so

381
00:18:23,455 --> 00:18:26,245
people don't think I'm a terrible SEO
content sat in a completely different

382
00:18:26,245 --> 00:18:32,050
team, um, those articles were basically
created to be maybe 200, 300 words.

383
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:32,169
Mm-hmm.

384
00:18:32,570 --> 00:18:37,449
. But if you then flip that, and I use a
example, I remember when I was a a kid, I

385
00:18:37,449 --> 00:18:40,600
used to go into Clark Shoe store and, and
parents would be like, Cool, we need to

386
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,070
get some new trainers, whatever that is.

387
00:18:42,250 --> 00:18:46,240
And that whole experience would be someone
measuring my feet in their little, um,

388
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,330
electronic machine and clamping it either
side, and then they'll be like, Cool, you

389
00:18:49,330 --> 00:18:52,030
can have these trainers with the light up
thing because they've got a padded sole.

390
00:18:52,659 --> 00:18:53,860
It was a whole experience.

391
00:18:53,860 --> 00:18:57,490
But if you take that and put that
into a blog content piece, you can't

392
00:18:57,490 --> 00:19:00,220
explain that journey about how to
measure your feet in two hundred words.

393
00:19:00,220 --> 00:19:01,929
And similar to the, the
mountain bike example.

394
00:19:02,260 --> 00:19:06,580
And I think, again, we as SEOs
have said, Hey, create loads of

395
00:19:06,580 --> 00:19:07,899
content and traffic will come.

396
00:19:08,590 --> 00:19:11,710
But actually what people have ended up
doing is creating lots of terrible content

397
00:19:11,715 --> 00:19:18,830
rather than saying, rather than saying,
um, okay, if you're talking about Omega

398
00:19:18,830 --> 00:19:22,385
3, and you are explaining what is Omega 3.

399
00:19:22,465 --> 00:19:25,285
If you go and look at like Healthline
for example, that article is probably

400
00:19:25,375 --> 00:19:28,524
a couple of thousand words and the
word count is slightly relevant, but

401
00:19:28,764 --> 00:19:31,825
the point of it is they've gone away
and understood every question and

402
00:19:31,825 --> 00:19:34,764
sub question that's related and the
benefits the side effect, the dosage.

403
00:19:34,764 --> 00:19:34,825
Yeah.

404
00:19:35,004 --> 00:19:37,345
And then come back with the most
comprehensive piece of content.

405
00:19:37,345 --> 00:19:40,045
And they've done that for a
whole broad set of topics.

406
00:19:40,465 --> 00:19:44,245
And I think that's where we're seeing
this pivot and sort of like change

407
00:19:44,245 --> 00:19:48,970
at the moment where for years we said
we'll sell you 10 blog posts a month.

408
00:19:48,970 --> 00:19:49,600
Thank you very much.

409
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,419
We'll create 10 blog posts
without much thought or direction.

410
00:19:52,419 --> 00:19:53,470
It's just 10 blog posts.

411
00:19:53,470 --> 00:19:54,399
We'll definitely get traffic.

412
00:19:54,399 --> 00:19:54,760
Cool.

413
00:19:54,970 --> 00:19:57,370
Tick in a box, and now it's going
the other way, where people are

414
00:19:57,375 --> 00:19:59,860
doing content audits and actually
removing a lot of content.

415
00:19:59,860 --> 00:20:04,330
There's just been done because SEO said
we should do content, and it's kind of

416
00:20:04,335 --> 00:20:08,030
got to that place where it's like now
less is more and of that less content.

417
00:20:08,590 --> 00:20:11,530
The more well written it is, the more
well researched it is, the better.

418
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,189
Um, and then you start tying in
the FAQs and you mark that with FAQ

419
00:20:15,189 --> 00:20:17,709
scheme and you get the, like the
feature snippets in Google and stuff.

420
00:20:18,250 --> 00:20:20,949
There's still a play here
to get traffic from those.

421
00:20:21,250 --> 00:20:23,860
But I do think it's a less is more.

422
00:20:23,860 --> 00:20:27,189
And if you can be the authorities,
so, uh, particularly in certain

423
00:20:27,219 --> 00:20:31,060
industries for the omega3, for example,
if I wrote a piece of content about

424
00:20:31,060 --> 00:20:33,879
omega3s, I wouldn't rank anywhere.

425
00:20:34,389 --> 00:20:34,480
Mm-hmm.

426
00:20:34,990 --> 00:20:35,590
I'm not authority.

427
00:20:35,590 --> 00:20:41,305
I don't have the accreditations
and education to be the right

428
00:20:41,305 --> 00:20:42,435
person to talk about omega 3.

429
00:20:43,055 --> 00:20:46,915
But if a doctor did it and had
those profiles marked up and Google

430
00:20:46,915 --> 00:20:50,395
understands actually, uh, they've
written it, they've got the right

431
00:20:50,455 --> 00:20:53,635
degrees, et cetera, there's probably
a higher chance they'll rank for it.

432
00:20:53,935 --> 00:20:54,295
Yeah.

433
00:20:54,595 --> 00:20:57,655
Um, so I do think it is just about
understanding the audience and then

434
00:20:57,805 --> 00:21:01,435
creating detailed content that is what
you would get if you went to the pharmacy

435
00:21:01,435 --> 00:21:03,145
or the doctor and got the same advice.

436
00:21:03,264 --> 00:21:03,355
Mm-hmm..

437
00:21:03,774 --> 00:21:06,325
Um, but again, we have SEOs that
have just for many years gone.

438
00:21:07,045 --> 00:21:08,004
How do I cut the corner?

439
00:21:08,010 --> 00:21:08,845
What's the little loophole?

440
00:21:08,845 --> 00:21:10,825
I can go around and get
some rankings and stuff?

441
00:21:10,825 --> 00:21:12,264
And it works for a long time, right?

442
00:21:12,264 --> 00:21:15,385
Like there's always this view of SEO
should be about getting traffic, but.

443
00:21:16,104 --> 00:21:18,715
I before joined Halford's
was always agency side, and I

444
00:21:18,715 --> 00:21:20,274
lived by that for a long time.

445
00:21:20,274 --> 00:21:22,164
It's like, well, traffic's up 30%.

446
00:21:22,254 --> 00:21:23,004
We've done a great job.

447
00:21:23,004 --> 00:21:23,604
Thank you very much.

448
00:21:23,904 --> 00:21:27,909
When I went to Halfords, it shifted my
whole mindset a lot to be like, I don't

449
00:21:27,909 --> 00:21:31,600
care if traffic is actually down as long
as revenue is up, because revenue is

450
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,050
what keeps stores open, which keeps the
staffs in job and helps the business grow.

451
00:21:35,379 --> 00:21:40,000
Um, but to do that we actually started
declining the amount of traffic, uh, the

452
00:21:40,300 --> 00:21:43,895
amount of content we were doing right
to make that content useful because

453
00:21:43,895 --> 00:21:47,735
otherwise it's basically just gonna sit
on a shelf, like an old toy in a toy

454
00:21:47,735 --> 00:21:49,264
story that no one plays with anymore.

455
00:21:49,565 --> 00:21:54,185
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, that's
fascinating because I think, it sounds

456
00:21:54,185 --> 00:21:58,085
like Kevin, and correct me if I'm
wrong, it sounds like, uh, for years,

457
00:21:58,504 --> 00:22:02,764
and this is not just peculiar to SEO,
this is, you know, every aspect of

458
00:22:02,764 --> 00:22:04,264
e-commerce has fallen foul to this.

459
00:22:04,264 --> 00:22:06,155
We've always looked for the shortcut.

460
00:22:06,514 --> 00:22:09,514
We've always looked
for the hack, you know?

461
00:22:09,575 --> 00:22:09,665
Yep.

462
00:22:09,995 --> 00:22:13,685
Um, how to hack life, How to hack
seo, Do you know what I mean?

463
00:22:13,685 --> 00:22:14,345
We want the hack.

464
00:22:14,345 --> 00:22:17,195
We want the quick, easy, dirty win
where we don't have to do anything.

465
00:22:17,195 --> 00:22:21,125
The put in all the keywords in white text
on a white background and just, and just,

466
00:22:21,125 --> 00:22:27,445
you know, that, that was the hack, but the
more complicated um, technology has got,

467
00:22:27,445 --> 00:22:32,485
it feels like the more Google has gone
actually guys, we're gonna cut the hacks.

468
00:22:32,485 --> 00:22:35,635
It's not that we wanna stop divvying
up the content, but we want to divvy up

469
00:22:35,635 --> 00:22:37,465
the right content and quality content.

470
00:22:37,735 --> 00:22:44,485
And it seems to me that if we invest
in that quality side of things, long

471
00:22:44,485 --> 00:22:45,985
term, that's the winning strategy.

472
00:22:46,104 --> 00:22:47,514
Would that be a fair reflection?

473
00:22:47,935 --> 00:22:48,624
Kevin Wiles: Yeah, for sure.

474
00:22:48,624 --> 00:22:51,354
And I think, you know, the last
maybe two months have shown that,

475
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:55,225
right, like GPT three and content
automation and, and machine learning

476
00:22:55,229 --> 00:22:56,425
stuff has been a big play to that.

477
00:22:56,425 --> 00:23:00,445
Where there's sites out there that
purely exist and they only exist

478
00:23:00,445 --> 00:23:01,675
because they've got automated content.

479
00:23:01,675 --> 00:23:04,225
None of it is reviewed, it's
just completely automated.

480
00:23:04,524 --> 00:23:07,104
And Google's then obviously
released the helpful content

481
00:23:07,104 --> 00:23:08,985
update, and it's been purely to say.

482
00:23:09,624 --> 00:23:13,245
This isn't good for the audience
because it's autogenerated

483
00:23:13,250 --> 00:23:14,185
through machine learning.

484
00:23:14,185 --> 00:23:16,765
And that machine learning
right now is not perfect.

485
00:23:17,365 --> 00:23:22,015
And that's where again, we as SEOs are
going, Cool, I can build this API thing

486
00:23:22,020 --> 00:23:25,015
and I can do this machine learning stuff
and then auto-generate the content.

487
00:23:25,345 --> 00:23:25,675
Cool.

488
00:23:25,675 --> 00:23:29,145
I can then sit on my sofa for a couple
hours in the evening and chill while

489
00:23:29,145 --> 00:23:30,745
my content's just doing its thing.

490
00:23:31,135 --> 00:23:34,465
Um, and that's again, we as
SEOs are trying to cut corners.

491
00:23:34,675 --> 00:23:35,635
There's a place for it.

492
00:23:36,295 --> 00:23:37,825
That place isn't full automation.

493
00:23:38,725 --> 00:23:43,345
You know, with some tweaks, with some
analysis with the keywords and all

494
00:23:43,345 --> 00:23:49,044
the internet and stuff taken into
consideration, um, I think we'll get to

495
00:23:49,044 --> 00:23:52,885
a place where that becomes more, There's
like lots of hot topics and Brighton

496
00:23:52,885 --> 00:23:56,004
had some great ones around AI and all
that sort of stuff that are coming

497
00:23:56,004 --> 00:24:00,651
into content to help us build that at
scale, but I don't think that will ever.

498
00:24:01,441 --> 00:24:04,900
Or at least for the short term, take
away from if you are a great writer,

499
00:24:04,900 --> 00:24:07,980
you understand your audience, you
understand your product enough, you are

500
00:24:07,980 --> 00:24:10,600
the best person to create that content
for your audience because you know,

501
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,230
well, you know your audience, whereas
a machine at the moment just doesn't.

502
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:14,860
Yeah.

503
00:24:14,865 --> 00:24:16,660
And tools can only give you so much.

504
00:24:16,660 --> 00:24:16,930
Right.

505
00:24:17,110 --> 00:24:19,240
Just because Google says these
keywords are what you should include

506
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,390
in content, doesn't mean you should
go and include them 50 times.

507
00:24:22,660 --> 00:24:23,020
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

508
00:24:23,830 --> 00:24:25,330
Yeah, no, that's a fair comment.

509
00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:25,930
I like that.

510
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,010
And I, I like the idea that actually
quality wins and it's less about creating

511
00:24:30,010 --> 00:24:34,840
10 blog posts, but about creating one
really good quality, uh, post for your

512
00:24:34,845 --> 00:24:40,899
content and, and so, If that's the case.

513
00:24:40,899 --> 00:24:41,229
Right.

514
00:24:41,229 --> 00:24:43,929
And, uh, sorry, let me
just, uh, go back a sec.

515
00:24:43,959 --> 00:24:47,320
You've mentioned this phrase
GPT three a couple of times.

516
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:48,370
What do you mean by that?

517
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:49,750
Just let's just clarify that.

518
00:24:50,110 --> 00:24:53,469
Kevin Wiles: Yeah, so I'm definitely
in no expert here, but GPT three is

519
00:24:53,475 --> 00:24:56,860
a, um, like many others, sort of like.

520
00:24:58,255 --> 00:24:59,815
AI type based model mm-hmm.

521
00:24:59,875 --> 00:25:03,775
That can basically, you give it a load of
inputs and it gives you outputs and, um,

522
00:25:03,835 --> 00:25:07,795
there's tools like phrase.Io, et cetera,
that basically you go in type a keyword

523
00:25:07,795 --> 00:25:10,795
or a topic you wanna create, it will spit
back a thousand word pieces of content.

524
00:25:11,305 --> 00:25:13,735
Um, and that's a very
broad, high level example.

525
00:25:14,065 --> 00:25:17,935
Um, and there are contents sites
today that are purely generated.

526
00:25:18,910 --> 00:25:19,990
Hey, I've given a load of keywords.

527
00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:22,720
It's gone away and created content
and there's a, I won't name drop

528
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:23,860
them cuz they wouldn't be very happy.

529
00:25:23,860 --> 00:25:26,320
But there's eCommerce sites that
I know that their whole category

530
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,120
content today is completely automated.

531
00:25:28,150 --> 00:25:31,780
It then goes through a manual process
of someone internally reviewing it,

532
00:25:32,170 --> 00:25:35,770
but it saves them 80% time from someone
actually creating that from scratch.

533
00:25:35,860 --> 00:25:39,130
And that's allowed them to rank
and rank very well, uh, in one

534
00:25:39,130 --> 00:25:40,420
of the biggest eCommerce spaces.

535
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:42,850
But there's different models out there.

536
00:25:42,850 --> 00:25:46,470
But I think Google's helpful
content update was aimed at saying.

537
00:25:47,300 --> 00:25:50,245
There's lots of rubbish out there
that those things are doing because

538
00:25:50,245 --> 00:25:53,545
there's great models that take lots
of time to train and, and tailor.

539
00:25:53,755 --> 00:25:57,205
And then there's lots of like
lower end models that you can buy

540
00:25:57,205 --> 00:25:59,480
subscription for, for like $99.

541
00:25:59,670 --> 00:26:02,515
And again, we as SEOs are going watch
us build loads of content with that

542
00:26:02,515 --> 00:26:05,755
$99 subscription, spin up a site, get
it to rank, make loads of money, and

543
00:26:05,755 --> 00:26:09,625
then if it gets hit by Google's next
update, I'd just spin it up again.

544
00:26:10,015 --> 00:26:14,365
Um, so yeah, that's broadly, it's
probably a terrible, um, explanation, but

545
00:26:14,365 --> 00:26:16,060
that's broadly what it, what it covers.

546
00:26:17,420 --> 00:26:17,790
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

547
00:26:17,820 --> 00:26:18,790
No, that's great.

548
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:19,540
That's great.

549
00:26:19,540 --> 00:26:24,790
So what's your, If I'm, if I'm
starting, let's think of the two, two

550
00:26:24,790 --> 00:26:26,320
sort of two, two words if you like.

551
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,960
So you've got people who have been
around, they, they're in eCommerce,

552
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:30,070
they've been around for a little while.

553
00:26:30,075 --> 00:26:32,470
So like Vegetology, you know, that
website's been around for a while.

554
00:26:33,310 --> 00:26:36,550
Um, and then you've got the, the,
the, the, you know, the guys and

555
00:26:36,550 --> 00:26:38,800
gals who are starting out, they're,
they're starting out fresh.

556
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,924
So what should, um, What should I
think about, as someone who's been

557
00:26:42,924 --> 00:26:45,684
around e-commerce for a little
while, for an from an SEO point of

558
00:26:45,684 --> 00:26:48,864
view, what should be some of the
strategy points that I, I need to hit?

559
00:26:49,554 --> 00:26:53,634
Kevin Wiles: Yeah, so good question and
it, with anything in seo, it's gonna

560
00:26:53,634 --> 00:26:59,860
depend on the context here, but like,
For me, I try and understand, a, if

561
00:26:59,860 --> 00:27:02,350
you have local stores, that's probably
gonna be a different strategy altogether

562
00:27:02,350 --> 00:27:03,759
because you can double down on local.

563
00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:06,399
But for the purpose of this, let's
just say you've got traditional

564
00:27:06,399 --> 00:27:10,419
Ecom with, uh, crps, PLPs, and
then PDP templates, for example.

565
00:27:10,989 --> 00:27:15,280
I'd be trying to understand
what's on those PDPs.

566
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,979
So one of the things I see lots of
people do is build load of great

567
00:27:17,979 --> 00:27:20,110
products, great products imagery,
and I work with a client right now

568
00:27:20,110 --> 00:27:21,639
that has fantastic product imagery.

569
00:27:21,939 --> 00:27:24,669
And then the description of
that product is about 50 words.

570
00:27:24,790 --> 00:27:28,315
Now does that describe the
product in enough detail?

571
00:27:28,315 --> 00:27:31,135
In terms of the ingredients, the,
if it's dosage, for example, if it's

572
00:27:31,135 --> 00:27:35,515
vitamins, um, all the benefits, does
it link out to support and content?

573
00:27:35,515 --> 00:27:37,495
Does it have related products that
you should take, like a vitamin

574
00:27:37,495 --> 00:27:38,815
stack in the morning, for example?

575
00:27:39,085 --> 00:27:44,394
And I think that's the biggest missed
opportunities because as SEOs, we go

576
00:27:44,394 --> 00:27:47,004
after volume or traditionally we've
always gone after volume, right?

577
00:27:47,004 --> 00:27:50,154
We've go here Omega three,
that's got 10,000 search a month.

578
00:27:50,154 --> 00:27:50,394
Great.

579
00:27:50,394 --> 00:27:51,174
I'm going after that.

580
00:27:51,475 --> 00:27:54,414
Yeah, but actually what about,
you know, touch upon a minute.

581
00:27:54,414 --> 00:27:54,985
Go vegan.

582
00:27:55,044 --> 00:27:59,154
So what about vegan Omega three tablets,
or what about a Omega vegan three?

583
00:27:59,404 --> 00:28:01,435
Uh, vegan Omega three.

584
00:28:01,884 --> 00:28:05,919
Uh, Men's joint supplements or something
that's much longer tail that has lower

585
00:28:05,919 --> 00:28:09,879
search volume, but actually would return a
product that that user is then more likely

586
00:28:09,879 --> 00:28:11,350
to buy because they're in that mindset.

587
00:28:11,350 --> 00:28:14,229
And I think that's typically the
biggest missed opportunities because

588
00:28:14,439 --> 00:28:17,229
doing product page SEO is hard.

589
00:28:17,229 --> 00:28:17,439
Right.

590
00:28:17,439 --> 00:28:19,389
Particularly the big
catalog your gets Yeah.

591
00:28:19,449 --> 00:28:22,689
How do you work out where you focus
and Halfords had the same example,

592
00:28:22,689 --> 00:28:24,999
they had like 70,000 products.

593
00:28:25,050 --> 00:28:25,649
It's like cool.

594
00:28:26,610 --> 00:28:27,175
Where do we start?

595
00:28:27,949 --> 00:28:29,905
And then that, then that
goes back to the same thing.

596
00:28:29,905 --> 00:28:32,725
It's like, okay, that goes back to the
exact same SEO process that you would've

597
00:28:32,725 --> 00:28:34,615
done years ago, which is keyword research.

598
00:28:34,794 --> 00:28:35,145
Mm.

599
00:28:35,725 --> 00:28:39,445
Group those keywords by the, the
topic and then work out, okay, what's

600
00:28:39,445 --> 00:28:42,504
Google returning today in their, in
their kind of like sub listing and

601
00:28:42,510 --> 00:28:44,185
then tailor that content around it.

602
00:28:44,605 --> 00:28:48,355
And then, you know, if I went into a
store, people are getting more conscious

603
00:28:48,355 --> 00:28:50,845
these days to say, what's the ingredients?

604
00:28:50,845 --> 00:28:52,435
Where's it come from, where's it sourced?

605
00:28:52,675 --> 00:28:53,544
Et cetera, et cetera.

606
00:28:54,354 --> 00:28:56,094
That information should also be online.

607
00:28:56,215 --> 00:28:56,304
Mm-hmm.

608
00:28:56,544 --> 00:28:59,364
, I think retailers are getting better,
but then it's about what's the

609
00:28:59,364 --> 00:29:03,624
differentiator between you and like my
protein, if it's vitamins or Holland

610
00:29:03,629 --> 00:29:05,905
and Barrett in those in instances.

611
00:29:06,084 --> 00:29:09,294
And I think that's, then it ties back
to the content to say, well they are

612
00:29:09,294 --> 00:29:14,634
covering a huge catalog of products and
they're going after, let's say my protein

613
00:29:14,634 --> 00:29:17,155
is going after whey protein, cause that
might be their best selling product.

614
00:29:17,245 --> 00:29:17,364
Mm-hmm..

615
00:29:17,604 --> 00:29:21,324
So they're probably not supporting
the omega three section as well.

616
00:29:21,445 --> 00:29:24,144
They're not probably looking at supporting
content and the health benefits and stuff.

617
00:29:24,174 --> 00:29:26,184
It's like that's your niche Double down.

618
00:29:26,544 --> 00:29:26,754
Yeah.

619
00:29:26,754 --> 00:29:29,814
Think four supporting content and
then go from there and, and I think

620
00:29:29,814 --> 00:29:33,834
that's just where people are like
lacking because everyone tries to do

621
00:29:33,834 --> 00:29:36,654
everything too fast and it doesn't
typically work unless you've got huge

622
00:29:36,654 --> 00:29:38,394
budgets and then that's different story.

623
00:29:38,799 --> 00:29:40,989
Matt Edmundson: Yeah which
none of us really have.

624
00:29:41,485 --> 00:29:41,559
Yeah.

625
00:29:41,649 --> 00:29:43,449
Uh, but it's, it's, no, I like that.

626
00:29:43,449 --> 00:29:47,439
It's interesting because people ask
often ask me, actually, you know,

627
00:29:48,159 --> 00:29:49,659
how do I compete against Amazon?

628
00:29:49,659 --> 00:29:51,820
It's one of the big questions
people ask, and I'm like, well,

629
00:29:51,820 --> 00:29:53,289
Amazon's commodities, right?

630
00:29:53,499 --> 00:29:54,340
It's a website.

631
00:29:54,610 --> 00:29:57,429
It could, you can put this
product on Amazon and it's just

632
00:29:57,429 --> 00:29:59,139
gonna be one of 10,000 Right.

633
00:29:59,199 --> 00:30:00,699
Uh, of a omega 3s on there.

634
00:30:00,705 --> 00:30:03,189
And it's like whoever gets that
page, you can put the content on

635
00:30:03,189 --> 00:30:04,779
there that Amazon doesn't care.

636
00:30:05,259 --> 00:30:07,139
What Amazon can't do.

637
00:30:08,399 --> 00:30:14,860
Um, and where I can absolutely kill it
compared to Amazon is with the knowledge,

638
00:30:14,860 --> 00:30:18,310
is with the passion, is with the
personality, is with the authenticity,

639
00:30:18,310 --> 00:30:20,380
is in answering the questions.

640
00:30:20,385 --> 00:30:23,020
It's in the, you know, all
that information on there.

641
00:30:23,410 --> 00:30:27,550
And so back to Halfords, you know,
Amazon may sell a mountain bike.

642
00:30:27,550 --> 00:30:30,970
Halfords may sell a mountain
bike, but if I'm, if I've got a

643
00:30:30,970 --> 00:30:32,980
little mountain bike business man.

644
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,080
I can totally rock my website
because I can put so much more into

645
00:30:38,085 --> 00:30:39,370
that, that Amazon's not doing that.

646
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,530
Halford's can't do it cause
it's got 70,000 products.

647
00:30:41,530 --> 00:30:45,580
Amazon just doesn't care because it's
got 4 billion products on there or

648
00:30:45,580 --> 00:30:47,260
whatever the amount is these days.

649
00:30:47,950 --> 00:30:50,590
So I, I, I think you're right.

650
00:30:50,590 --> 00:30:51,879
I think that that..

651
00:30:52,825 --> 00:30:57,565
Investing in that, investing in,
in that kind of content to me

652
00:30:57,565 --> 00:30:59,805
seems like a really smart strategy.

653
00:31:00,115 --> 00:31:03,024
And actually what you are saying, Kevin,
if I'm hearing this right, is not only is

654
00:31:03,024 --> 00:31:07,615
that a smart strategy from just a, a brand
voice point of view, from differentiating

655
00:31:07,615 --> 00:31:11,215
from Amazon, from differentiating from
your competitors, but it's also a smart

656
00:31:11,215 --> 00:31:13,064
strategy from an SEO point of view.

657
00:31:14,004 --> 00:31:14,725
Kevin Wiles: Yeah, for sure.

658
00:31:14,725 --> 00:31:20,245
And I think your, your example is, is
a great one because hey, if I'm a, um,

659
00:31:20,274 --> 00:31:23,304
let's say I run a small bike shop off
Stratford-upon-Avon and I wanna own that

660
00:31:23,304 --> 00:31:27,475
space, well, like instantly I've got
new topic opportunities, which is cool.

661
00:31:27,475 --> 00:31:29,844
Well, my audience may
be looking for repairs.

662
00:31:29,850 --> 00:31:31,705
They may be looking for same day repairs.

663
00:31:31,735 --> 00:31:34,615
Well, they may be looking for,
uh, I've got a family of three.

664
00:31:34,675 --> 00:31:36,355
I want a bike journey
that's maybe an hour.

665
00:31:36,825 --> 00:31:38,575
On a flat surface, on a tarmac.

666
00:31:38,875 --> 00:31:41,995
And I, as a specialist, because I
run in my small bike shop, can create

667
00:31:41,995 --> 00:31:45,264
some content that's like top five bike
rides in Stratford-upon-Avon, which

668
00:31:45,264 --> 00:31:48,655
a big retailer isn't gonna do because
they're gonna go, Well, who cares?

669
00:31:48,655 --> 00:31:50,544
You know who I am, You're
gonna come buy to me.

670
00:31:51,024 --> 00:31:55,735
And I think the other part is if I
pull on a different example, I, um,

671
00:31:55,975 --> 00:32:00,880
one of my friends, um, runs a kind
of Michelin star gastro pub, which I

672
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,830
went to on Saturday, which was lovely.

673
00:32:03,070 --> 00:32:07,120
But um, they were like, Hey, we wanna
start ranking for things like Michelin

674
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:08,770
Star restaurant Cotswolds, for example.

675
00:32:08,770 --> 00:32:12,955
But actually when you go and Google
that, There aren't any pubs ranking for

676
00:32:12,955 --> 00:32:16,705
that because Google's interpreted that
search term as, Hmm, maybe it's not fair.

677
00:32:16,705 --> 00:32:17,905
We just return one result.

678
00:32:18,085 --> 00:32:20,814
So what they've done is returned sort
of like inspiration blogs where it's

679
00:32:20,814 --> 00:32:23,754
like, here's the top five restaurants
in the Cotswolds, et cetera, etc.

680
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:24,024
Mm-hmm.

681
00:32:24,685 --> 00:32:27,175
My job as SEO is to get
bookings into that restaurant.

682
00:32:27,235 --> 00:32:31,345
So it's while I can optimize that
website for that search term, actually

683
00:32:31,345 --> 00:32:34,225
the smart play here is understanding
what that page is being returned from

684
00:32:34,225 --> 00:32:37,645
Google and saying, Well, actually
here, I just wanna get their website

685
00:32:37,705 --> 00:32:39,504
into those top five articles.

686
00:32:40,060 --> 00:32:42,730
Because either way, SEOs, a
byproduct is gonna get them,

687
00:32:43,060 --> 00:32:44,409
hopefully to then have a booking.

688
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,689
I think that's the smart
place, just understanding

689
00:32:46,929 --> 00:32:48,220
what are people searching for?

690
00:32:48,370 --> 00:32:52,179
And if you then run a restaurant in,
in the Cotswolds, and it's a country

691
00:32:52,185 --> 00:32:55,210
pub, for example, or most people are
gonna go to the Cotswolds potentially

692
00:32:55,210 --> 00:32:58,389
for a hike, So then why don't you start
providing hiking routes and information

693
00:32:58,389 --> 00:33:01,720
about that that says, Oh, actually,
if I plan my route from this pub, do

694
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,070
a hike and then come back for dinner.

695
00:33:03,699 --> 00:33:05,095
That's my journey and that's my day out.

696
00:33:05,095 --> 00:33:06,595
And then the pub takes that booking.

697
00:33:06,865 --> 00:33:09,774
And I do think that's the smart players,
just understanding what the customer,

698
00:33:09,865 --> 00:33:13,854
particularly if you are localized, is
looking for, and then answering that,

699
00:33:13,945 --> 00:33:18,745
creating content, whether that's video,
articles, lists, whatever it might be.

700
00:33:19,285 --> 00:33:20,785
And just being the expert in that.

701
00:33:20,874 --> 00:33:22,915
And, and before, you know, you'll
start to build up awareness.

702
00:33:22,915 --> 00:33:24,865
You'll start to get traffic
and stuff, you know.

703
00:33:25,540 --> 00:33:28,070
A mechanic, it could be
we're heading into winter.

704
00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:29,620
What other things you
need to check in your car?

705
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,961
Creating videos, putting 'em on social,
put 'em on YouTube, put on whatever it

706
00:33:32,966 --> 00:33:35,110
might be, and being that useful person.

707
00:33:35,350 --> 00:33:37,899
And before you know your start to get
traction, start to get reviews, which have

708
00:33:37,899 --> 00:33:40,120
you rank locally and so on and so forth.

709
00:33:40,330 --> 00:33:46,675
But Halfords probably aren't gonna sit
there and go, um, How to, uh, stay safe

710
00:33:46,704 --> 00:33:49,974
in Stratford-upon-Avon in the winter on
the roads because they just don't care.

711
00:33:50,184 --> 00:33:52,434
And I'm sure that's maybe is,
that's a terrible piece of

712
00:33:52,434 --> 00:33:53,425
content that you could create.

713
00:33:53,425 --> 00:33:56,485
But there are other examples
where, you know, that is exactly

714
00:33:56,485 --> 00:33:58,794
the sort of stuff that smaller
people could, should be doing.

715
00:33:59,064 --> 00:34:02,874
And they probably don't need much guidance
from an SEO to say, go write this in

716
00:34:02,874 --> 00:34:04,644
terms of this keyword, this structure.

717
00:34:05,330 --> 00:34:06,110
They know that stuff.

718
00:34:06,110 --> 00:34:07,910
That's, that's why they're
in that business they're in.

719
00:34:08,180 --> 00:34:11,630
Whereas, we as SEOs are just
going, Here's a load of keywords.

720
00:34:11,630 --> 00:34:12,590
Go and build some content.

721
00:34:12,650 --> 00:34:13,230
Yeah, yeah.

722
00:34:13,609 --> 00:34:14,569
It's got, it's got better.

723
00:34:14,569 --> 00:34:16,489
But I think there's still loads of
gap where it's just like, here's a

724
00:34:16,489 --> 00:34:17,569
spreadsheet, here's some keywords.

725
00:34:17,569 --> 00:34:21,500
Build some content with no real
thought to the audience piece.

726
00:34:21,505 --> 00:34:25,890
Or actually, what is that content gonna
lead to a booking or a product buy?

727
00:34:26,240 --> 00:34:30,670
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, I, The more
you talk, the more I agree, Kevin, in

728
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,029
the sense that, um, I like it because
you're thinking about the customer, you're

729
00:34:34,029 --> 00:34:37,870
thinking about the customer journey, and
you are thinking about how you are to get

730
00:34:37,870 --> 00:34:39,670
your story and their story to overlap.

731
00:34:39,699 --> 00:34:42,760
And in that space, you can
really do some great stuff.

732
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,050
And I think that's where we win.

733
00:34:44,605 --> 00:34:47,574
and actually everything you said, I'm sat
here thinking, Well, I, the first question

734
00:34:47,574 --> 00:34:50,515
to ask you is, I've, I'm established
in e-commerce, what's my strategy?

735
00:34:50,515 --> 00:34:53,425
My second question was gonna
be, I'm new to e-commerce.

736
00:34:53,425 --> 00:34:54,234
What's my strategy?

737
00:34:54,505 --> 00:34:56,904
It sounds like actually
it's the same strategy.

738
00:34:57,564 --> 00:34:57,895
Kevin Wiles: Yeah.

739
00:34:57,895 --> 00:35:00,444
I think the only difference,
I mean, both of them will have

740
00:35:00,444 --> 00:35:01,765
some aspects of technical, right?

741
00:35:01,765 --> 00:35:05,245
If, if I play back the three pillars
of sort of like where I look at SEO

742
00:35:05,245 --> 00:35:09,085
in terms of technical content and
then sort of digital PR and marketing.

743
00:35:09,595 --> 00:35:14,375
I think if you are a new e-com site,
It's looking at what's the tech stack and

744
00:35:14,394 --> 00:35:15,984
making sure that it's lightning quick.

745
00:35:15,984 --> 00:35:21,385
Because again, the issue you have when
you're more established is the bigger

746
00:35:21,385 --> 00:35:24,535
you get, the more sort of like corporate
red tape that comes into those things.

747
00:35:24,535 --> 00:35:29,974
And then there's more tech partners,
or Bazaar Voice, or Cubeit or Hotjar

748
00:35:29,995 --> 00:35:33,175
or any of the other big providers
that want code, and you've got e-com,

749
00:35:33,175 --> 00:35:35,125
you've got merchandise, you've got
all these different people wanting

750
00:35:35,125 --> 00:35:36,625
tracking and stuff on the site.

751
00:35:37,375 --> 00:35:42,354
I think when you're let's say a startup,
you have the ability to scale and,

752
00:35:42,354 --> 00:35:44,965
and pivot and go, Right, We don't want
that on the site, or We can do this

753
00:35:44,965 --> 00:35:46,555
without building that, that provider.

754
00:35:47,515 --> 00:35:49,765
And that gives you the ability,
in some instances, to do

755
00:35:49,765 --> 00:35:50,935
better than the big players.

756
00:35:50,939 --> 00:35:54,835
Because when I was at Halford's,
they, their site speed was horrendous.

757
00:35:55,555 --> 00:35:57,190
It was terrible.

758
00:35:57,490 --> 00:36:00,670
They ranked purely on the fact they
had just the solid backing profile.

759
00:36:00,810 --> 00:36:01,250
Yeah.

760
00:36:01,250 --> 00:36:04,120
But then we had competitors like Pure
Electric coming up that were on a

761
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:05,680
Shopify platform that was streamlined.

762
00:36:05,685 --> 00:36:07,630
Their site speed was
like under two seconds.

763
00:36:07,779 --> 00:36:09,130
And that's all the things Google wants.

764
00:36:09,135 --> 00:36:09,460
Right?

765
00:36:09,460 --> 00:36:10,630
And that's the things users want.

766
00:36:11,020 --> 00:36:11,140
Mm-hmm.

767
00:36:11,385 --> 00:36:14,470
, while they might not rank for the
competitive terms, when they rank

768
00:36:14,470 --> 00:36:17,620
for a specific product term, the
customers going, Man, this checkout is

769
00:36:17,620 --> 00:36:19,180
lightning quick click, click thanks.

770
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:19,730
Yeah.

771
00:36:19,730 --> 00:36:21,910
And, and they start to
take market share that way.

772
00:36:22,270 --> 00:36:23,770
Um, so it slightly differs, but then.

773
00:36:24,609 --> 00:36:29,050
If you are new it, it is about going
after the longer tail keywords, lower

774
00:36:29,050 --> 00:36:32,769
volume, easier for you to rank with,
start starting shop as a competitor with

775
00:36:32,774 --> 00:36:37,210
the long term view of 6, 12, 18 months,
whatever might be, you can start to

776
00:36:37,210 --> 00:36:41,380
compete on some of those, like head tail
product terms that have just high volume.

777
00:36:42,550 --> 00:36:46,359
Matt Edmundson: So where would I, um, I'm
sitting here listening to you think about

778
00:36:46,359 --> 00:36:50,380
this and I, and I I'm going, Well, if
I'm starting out in e-commerce and you're

779
00:36:50,380 --> 00:36:54,250
saying go after the long tail keywords,
how do I, how do I know what they are?

780
00:36:54,930 --> 00:36:59,710
Kevin Wiles: Yeah, so I think, I mean, I
think you can learn a lot by just Googling

781
00:36:59,710 --> 00:37:01,269
what you think a customer is searching.

782
00:37:01,269 --> 00:37:04,359
And it's what I always say to customers
when I'm like, So tell me what

783
00:37:04,359 --> 00:37:05,769
you think a customer is searching.

784
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,420
Because if I went and searched for
mountain bikes, for example, Cool,

785
00:37:10,420 --> 00:37:11,469
I'll start to understand more.

786
00:37:11,469 --> 00:37:14,740
Most of those category pages, and
those are quite broad, but then.

787
00:37:16,569 --> 00:37:18,099
What if it's a different
size Mountain Bike.

788
00:37:18,099 --> 00:37:20,080
So it's, I need a 21 inch mountain bike.

789
00:37:20,085 --> 00:37:21,550
And then you've got the
different size variance.

790
00:37:21,550 --> 00:37:23,920
You know that because you've got that
product range sat in your warehouse or

791
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:25,420
whatever, and then you're like, cool.

792
00:37:25,420 --> 00:37:26,439
And my bikes are orange.

793
00:37:26,620 --> 00:37:27,160
Oh, cool.

794
00:37:27,165 --> 00:37:28,840
So it's 21 inch orange mountain bike.

795
00:37:28,899 --> 00:37:29,200
Cool.

796
00:37:29,410 --> 00:37:30,370
And it's full suspension.

797
00:37:30,370 --> 00:37:31,809
So you should start like
putting this pattern together.

798
00:37:31,814 --> 00:37:33,219
Like, well, someone might search them.

799
00:37:33,670 --> 00:37:37,179
And that, that when you start to
get the, the much longer tail stuff,

800
00:37:37,179 --> 00:37:39,729
there's obviously tools, there's
keywords everywhere, which is just

801
00:37:39,729 --> 00:37:43,059
a Chrome plugin you can, um, pull in
that says, Hey, you search this, but

802
00:37:43,059 --> 00:37:44,469
here's related to things you could do.

803
00:37:44,799 --> 00:37:48,399
And there's obviously Moz, SEMRush,
Ahrefs that you could just pull in that

804
00:37:48,404 --> 00:37:50,080
then gives you the long tail variations.

805
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:54,340
But I do think it's just, you know,
what do you actually think someone

806
00:37:54,340 --> 00:37:55,509
is searching for that product term?

807
00:37:55,750 --> 00:37:59,500
If we take a tyre example, If I
go and check my car on the drive,

808
00:37:59,890 --> 00:38:01,000
I won't just search car tires.

809
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:02,140
I'll search, Cool.

810
00:38:02,140 --> 00:38:06,220
I need to replace one, and I've got
Toyota tires and their 225 R 18,

811
00:38:06,790 --> 00:38:08,440
whatever the rest of the speed rate is.

812
00:38:08,740 --> 00:38:13,060
Suddenly that query's much, much
smaller than just car tires.

813
00:38:13,065 --> 00:38:13,370
Mm-hmm..

814
00:38:13,450 --> 00:38:17,420
But the benefit here is if you build
the best product page that ranks that

815
00:38:17,420 --> 00:38:20,260
tyre, You're probably gonna rank, which
means you're gonna get sales, which

816
00:38:20,260 --> 00:38:23,160
means you can reinvest that money back
into SEO or PPC or whatever it is.

817
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:23,439
Mm-hmm.

818
00:38:23,524 --> 00:38:26,380
and then do that 10 times, 20 times,
30 times, 40 times, et cetera.

819
00:38:26,620 --> 00:38:29,859
Suddenly a lot more money coming into the
business where the big players are like,

820
00:38:30,309 --> 00:38:33,069
Well, we rank for tires, so like we're
always gonna capitalize on the market.

821
00:38:34,689 --> 00:38:34,990
Yeah.

822
00:38:34,990 --> 00:38:36,460
And I think that, I think
that's the sweet spot.

823
00:38:36,460 --> 00:38:39,220
And the example I always have is,
I had a car client once that was

824
00:38:39,220 --> 00:38:41,649
like, We wanna rank for cars, but
they only sold Audis and I was like.

825
00:38:42,240 --> 00:38:42,689
But why?

826
00:38:42,984 --> 00:38:44,934
They're like, Well, it's got a
hundred and odd thousand search a

827
00:38:44,934 --> 00:38:46,104
month, whatever it was back then.

828
00:38:46,524 --> 00:38:49,014
But they were just fixating
on the volume thing.

829
00:38:49,014 --> 00:38:51,984
They had the budget, they just
wanted to be known for cars.

830
00:38:51,984 --> 00:38:54,795
And I was like, But the amount of people
that are gonna come to the website and go.

831
00:38:55,390 --> 00:38:56,649
I actually wanted a bmw.

832
00:38:56,649 --> 00:39:00,640
I wanted Volkswagen, I wanted a Peugeot
and you can't service that, that client.

833
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,300
So you'd much better refine it and be
an Audi and then look at the types, the

834
00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:08,170
models, the variations, the doors, the
engine sizes, et cetera, and then own

835
00:39:08,170 --> 00:39:09,729
all of those different long tail stuff.

836
00:39:10,809 --> 00:39:13,120
Matt Edmundson: Does it, um, I
dunno if this is still the case,

837
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:18,024
Kevin, but it used to be, um, if,
you know, let's take that example.

838
00:39:18,024 --> 00:39:22,255
Someone ranks, they invest heavily in
ranking for cars, but they only sell Audi.

839
00:39:22,734 --> 00:39:24,774
And so that means a lot of people
are gonna come to their site and

840
00:39:24,774 --> 00:39:26,274
disappear again quite quickly.

841
00:39:26,274 --> 00:39:29,484
You know, the bounce rate is, people
call it, they, you know, people bounce.

842
00:39:29,755 --> 00:39:32,064
Does that still affect your SEO ranking?

843
00:39:32,069 --> 00:39:35,335
So if people are coming to your site and
disappearing quite quickly are Google

844
00:39:35,335 --> 00:39:37,465
going, We don't like this website.

845
00:39:41,259 --> 00:39:42,429
Kevin Wiles: That's a difficult question.

846
00:39:42,429 --> 00:39:47,590
And the reason I say that is there's
um, lots of theories and, um, actual

847
00:39:47,590 --> 00:39:51,040
case studies and stuff that say bounce
rate technically does have an impact.

848
00:39:51,279 --> 00:39:55,210
Google's official stance is we don't take
any Google Analytics metrics into account

849
00:39:55,240 --> 00:39:56,950
when we're looking at SEO rankings.

850
00:39:57,090 --> 00:40:01,944
Um, I'm unsure is my honest answer.

851
00:40:01,944 --> 00:40:05,965
I think they right in some degree have
an understanding that if you are clicking

852
00:40:05,965 --> 00:40:08,545
from search and then clicking straight
back, that probably doesn't enter in

853
00:40:08,545 --> 00:40:10,165
the intent and that impacts things.

854
00:40:10,435 --> 00:40:16,225
But I don't think we'll ever get a
firm answer from Google to say it does.

855
00:40:16,375 --> 00:40:18,745
Um, but again, why?

856
00:40:20,304 --> 00:40:23,274
Why would you want to build
content or landing pages that

857
00:40:23,304 --> 00:40:24,474
aren't good for your customers?

858
00:40:24,474 --> 00:40:27,925
Because if anything, the long
term here is people are gonna get

859
00:40:27,925 --> 00:40:30,535
annoyed and frustrated at your
brand for being a bit rubbish.

860
00:40:30,925 --> 00:40:33,684
And actually that's probably
more important than thinking I

861
00:40:33,684 --> 00:40:35,064
can rank for cars, which mm-hmm.

862
00:40:35,455 --> 00:40:37,974
isn't gonna put sales and it comes
back to that exact same conversation.

863
00:40:38,035 --> 00:40:40,014
It's traffic or, or cash.

864
00:40:40,104 --> 00:40:42,535
And I'd rather have cash over traffic.

865
00:40:42,984 --> 00:40:43,285
Yeah.

866
00:40:43,375 --> 00:40:45,505
And it's kind of like, it is
trying to get that like C-suite

867
00:40:45,564 --> 00:40:47,125
level, like ownership to say.

868
00:40:47,904 --> 00:40:50,484
Traffic means nothing
if it's not converting.

869
00:40:50,904 --> 00:40:54,115
Um, because sometimes it's fixating
on the numbers that are bigger.

870
00:40:55,705 --> 00:40:59,005
Matt Edmundson: So, Kevin,
listen, I'm aware of time and

871
00:40:59,615 --> 00:41:02,064
I, I regret to inform you now.

872
00:41:02,215 --> 00:41:04,524
It's just one of those where
I could, I just feel like I'm

873
00:41:04,524 --> 00:41:05,665
scratching the surface on this.

874
00:41:05,665 --> 00:41:09,295
So if someone sat there like me and
going, Oh, I've got the question about

875
00:41:09,295 --> 00:41:10,375
this, I've got a question about that.

876
00:41:10,675 --> 00:41:13,555
What's some good resources
in terms of finding out more?

877
00:41:13,555 --> 00:41:14,944
Where's a good place to start?

878
00:41:15,604 --> 00:41:16,915
Kevin Wiles: Well, that's a good question.

879
00:41:16,915 --> 00:41:19,375
So I think the, um, it depends how.

880
00:41:19,990 --> 00:41:21,069
How detailed you want to go.

881
00:41:21,069 --> 00:41:23,740
So Google has its own like
beginner's guide to seo.

882
00:41:24,189 --> 00:41:27,429
Um, then there's brands like HubSpot
that have some great ideas around

883
00:41:27,429 --> 00:41:28,779
just building an SEO strategy.

884
00:41:28,785 --> 00:41:31,630
Things you need to look at, which can
be more high level, but give you the

885
00:41:31,929 --> 00:41:33,309
calling to go look at keywords this way.

886
00:41:33,790 --> 00:41:37,719
Um, Aleyda Solis has a great, um, she's
spent a lot of time in the industry

887
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,620
building out resources for people to
understand SEO from tech, strategy,

888
00:41:41,620 --> 00:41:45,879
insights, analytics, reporting,
which I think is, uh, learningseo.io.

889
00:41:46,179 --> 00:41:47,439
Um, so I'd definitely check that out.

890
00:41:47,809 --> 00:41:51,189
Um, and then just start
to Google those things.

891
00:41:51,189 --> 00:41:54,399
If it's about starting in local
seo, there'll be a good guide

892
00:41:54,399 --> 00:41:57,340
about how to build up your G&B
profile to make sure you can rank.

893
00:41:57,670 --> 00:41:58,840
It is difficult to say.

894
00:41:59,109 --> 00:42:01,689
This will be the ultimate guide for SEO
that you'll ever need, because I don't

895
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,899
generally think this one exists because
I think there's so many disciplines of an

896
00:42:04,899 --> 00:42:10,314
SEO that like, Hey, local SEO is different
to enterprise seo and therefore, Someone

897
00:42:10,314 --> 00:42:13,345
who specializes in enterprise SEO isn't
gonna be the best person to go and follow

898
00:42:13,345 --> 00:42:15,385
for, for if you just say run a bakery.

899
00:42:15,774 --> 00:42:18,595
Um, but I will try and follow up with some
notes that you can put in the comments

900
00:42:18,595 --> 00:42:20,604
and, um, and send those up to users.

901
00:42:21,205 --> 00:42:21,865
Matt Edmundson: That'd be great.

902
00:42:21,984 --> 00:42:22,675
That'll be great.

903
00:42:23,154 --> 00:42:27,115
Listen, Kevin, here's my, my crazy
question that I've, I've started

904
00:42:27,115 --> 00:42:29,545
asking people and I'm really curious
to know what your answer is, right.

905
00:42:30,819 --> 00:42:33,490
You've just given your best
keynote speech in your life ever.

906
00:42:33,519 --> 00:42:36,599
I always say to, to guests,
imagine it's been to the e-commerce

907
00:42:36,599 --> 00:42:38,139
cohort who sponsor the podcast.

908
00:42:38,139 --> 00:42:40,120
So all the cohorts have
sat in a hotel room.

909
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,189
You've delivered your
best keynote ever on seo.

910
00:42:42,189 --> 00:42:43,420
Yeah, the crowd's going crazy.

911
00:42:43,420 --> 00:42:43,929
Go, Kevin.

912
00:42:44,019 --> 00:42:44,319
Wow.

913
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,370
Um, and you stand up, you take a bow and
you do that thing that they do at the

914
00:42:48,370 --> 00:42:53,559
Oscars, which say, I would just like to
thank, um, who would be on your list?

915
00:42:53,559 --> 00:42:53,800
What?

916
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,380
Would there be people,
uh, a podcast, a book.

917
00:42:56,410 --> 00:42:58,830
Who, who would be on your
list of, of people to thank.

918
00:42:59,395 --> 00:42:59,755
Yeah,

919
00:42:59,755 --> 00:43:03,685
Kevin Wiles: so I think, um, I
mean, when I first started there was

920
00:43:03,685 --> 00:43:05,665
definitely what I call the OGs of seo.

921
00:43:05,665 --> 00:43:09,295
So, um, people like Barry Adams
and stuff were the reason that I

922
00:43:09,295 --> 00:43:10,825
got into SEO many, many years ago.

923
00:43:11,064 --> 00:43:14,755
And then I think more recently
the people that have made me stay

924
00:43:14,755 --> 00:43:17,785
in SEO and keep motivating and
stuff is, um, Martin McDonald's.

925
00:43:17,785 --> 00:43:20,725
So he, uh, I work for an
agency called MOG Media.

926
00:43:21,545 --> 00:43:22,825
Martin's the CEO of that agency.

927
00:43:22,825 --> 00:43:27,515
So, um, definitely him, but I
think outside of that, a lot of

928
00:43:27,535 --> 00:43:31,135
it has just been, I'm honest,
self-motivation because I wanna buy

929
00:43:31,135 --> 00:43:32,755
some land to not live near people.

930
00:43:35,665 --> 00:43:38,965
But, um, as bad as that sounds, that's,
there's been, there's generally been

931
00:43:38,965 --> 00:43:41,875
lots of people I could sit here and
thank, but a lot of it has also come

932
00:43:41,875 --> 00:43:45,145
down to late nights just learning,
getting stuck into beds and stuff.

933
00:43:46,465 --> 00:43:48,975
I wanna buy a field and build
a house to not be near people.

934
00:43:49,505 --> 00:43:51,310
Matt Edmundson: That,
that's, uh, fair enough.

935
00:43:51,340 --> 00:43:52,510
I I totally get that.

936
00:43:54,290 --> 00:43:57,160
I, I wouldn't personally do
it, but I, It's good to have

937
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:58,180
a dream and a goal, right.

938
00:43:58,689 --> 00:44:00,189
Um, listen, Kevin, brilliant.

939
00:44:00,220 --> 00:44:01,120
How do people reach you?

940
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,580
How do they get in touch if they
want, If they want to do so?

941
00:44:04,194 --> 00:44:04,615
Kevin Wiles: Yeah, sure.

942
00:44:04,615 --> 00:44:07,495
So I'm on Twitter just at
Kev Wiles, um, as my handle.

943
00:44:07,734 --> 00:44:10,474
Uh, I've got a LinkedIn
profile, which is, uh, Kevin J.

944
00:44:10,474 --> 00:44:12,215
Wiles, uh, just on LinkedIn.

945
00:44:12,354 --> 00:44:15,535
Obviously my website, which is Kevin
Wiles, And then the agency I work

946
00:44:15,540 --> 00:44:20,094
for, which is just mog.media, which
is a enterprise, um, agency that has a

947
00:44:20,094 --> 00:44:21,264
SaaS platform coming up soon as well.

948
00:44:22,224 --> 00:44:22,915
Matt Edmundson: Fantastic.

949
00:44:22,915 --> 00:44:23,455
Fantastic.

950
00:44:23,455 --> 00:44:30,745
We will of course, uh, link to all of
those, uh, links in our show notes, and if

951
00:44:30,745 --> 00:44:35,755
you are subscribed to our email list, they
will be coming to your inbox directly.

952
00:44:35,755 --> 00:44:37,524
If you're not subscribed
to email list, subscribe.

953
00:44:37,844 --> 00:44:40,245
Uh, because you just get those
things straight to your inbox.

954
00:44:40,245 --> 00:44:41,354
You don't even have to worry about it.

955
00:44:41,354 --> 00:44:41,594
Right.

956
00:44:42,014 --> 00:44:43,604
Uh, so there you have it.

957
00:44:43,875 --> 00:44:45,825
What's a fantastic conversation.

958
00:44:45,825 --> 00:44:46,425
Thank Kevin.

959
00:44:46,425 --> 00:44:47,774
Thank you so much for joining us.

960
00:44:47,774 --> 00:44:48,206
Thank you very much.

961
00:44:48,514 --> 00:44:50,894
I really appreciate you being here today.

962
00:44:51,344 --> 00:44:53,354
Uh, all good stuff.

963
00:44:53,354 --> 00:44:56,774
I'd like say I wish I had another
two hours carry on this conversation.

964
00:44:57,165 --> 00:45:00,734
Uh, a big shout out to today's
show sponsor the e-commerce cohort.

965
00:45:00,734 --> 00:45:06,120
Do head on over to ecommercecohort.com
for more information about this new type

966
00:45:06,125 --> 00:45:10,319
of community and membership, uh, which
I really think you should check out.

967
00:45:10,319 --> 00:45:11,220
And, uh, join.

968
00:45:11,729 --> 00:45:14,910
Be sure to follow the e-commerce
podcast wherever you get your podcast

969
00:45:14,910 --> 00:45:19,170
from because we've got some more great
guests like Kevin, uh, lined up and

970
00:45:19,170 --> 00:45:21,569
I don't want you to miss any of them.

971
00:45:21,569 --> 00:45:25,710
So subscribe, follow, I think follow
is now the word we use, uh, because

972
00:45:25,710 --> 00:45:28,559
Apple Podcast ditched the word
subscribe and changed it for follow.

973
00:45:28,559 --> 00:45:28,979
Anyway.

974
00:45:30,025 --> 00:45:35,410
Uh, in case no one has told you
today, dear listener, you are awesome.

975
00:45:35,590 --> 00:45:36,189
Yes you are.

976
00:45:36,189 --> 00:45:38,710
It's just a burden that
we all have to bear.

977
00:45:39,010 --> 00:45:42,310
Now, the E-Commerce podcast
is produced by Aurion Media.

978
00:45:42,310 --> 00:45:47,109
You can find our entire archive of
episodes on your favorite podcast app.

979
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:51,180
The team that makes this show possible
is Sadaf Beynon, Josh Catchpole,

980
00:45:51,180 --> 00:45:53,510
Estella Robin and Tim Johnson.

981
00:45:53,859 --> 00:45:57,490
Our theme song was written by
Josh Edmundson and my good self.

982
00:45:57,870 --> 00:46:01,234
And as I mentioned, if you would
like to read the transcript or show

983
00:46:01,234 --> 00:46:05,974
notes, you can head over to the
website ecommercepodcast.net, uh,

984
00:46:05,979 --> 00:46:07,264
where you can see them for free.

985
00:46:07,264 --> 00:46:10,564
And you can also sign up for the
weekly newsletter that I mentioned

986
00:46:10,835 --> 00:46:15,064
and get all of this good stuff
directly in your inbox totally free.

987
00:46:15,335 --> 00:46:16,005
Amazing.

988
00:46:16,325 --> 00:46:16,925
Yes, it is.

989
00:46:17,404 --> 00:46:18,514
So that's it.

990
00:46:18,514 --> 00:46:22,415
A big thanks from me and also from Kevin.

991
00:46:22,415 --> 00:46:25,115
Thank you so much for joining us.

992
00:46:25,194 --> 00:46:26,470
Yeah, it's been brilliant, mate.

993
00:46:26,470 --> 00:46:29,080
Honestly, uh, we will see you next time.

994
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:30,550
Have a great week wherever you are.

995
00:46:30,790 --> 00:46:31,240
That's it.

996
00:46:31,540 --> 00:46:31,990
Bye for now.