Yeah, sure.

So I can give you a little bit of background on myself, how and why I ended up at Song Trader and what it is we're actually doing here.

So I came to Canada at 10 years old as a landed immigrant, and I found it really difficult to sort of fit in with the other kids.

And I ended up falling to this rabbit hole of vinyl and turntable ism and deejaying.

So for me, it all began with hearing a record on the radio with scratching in it, being, being enamored by that sound and then going out there and hoarding records.

I was buying up collections, I was going through dollar bins.

I was just trying to amass as much vinyl as I could.

All genres, all eras, you know, nothing, no stone was left unturned.

And that passion for, for vinyl and music eventually led to me treating myself to a pair of turntables on my 15th birthday.

And that kind of changed the trajectory of my life.

So this passion and hobby for DJing, it actually turned into a full time career.

Paid my way through university where I did my Bachelor of Commerce and Economics and Marketing.

The whole time I was there, I just wanted to play music and, you know, mix my records.

And I was throwing a lot of events, doing a lot of things to kind of cut my teeth and give myself a forum to, you know, play this music.

So after Guelph, after I graduated, the notion was that I would, you know, go on to do my mba and I was in a co op program at Scotiabank here in Toronto.

I quit all of that cold turkey and decided to focus on my passion, mixing records.

That worked out quite well for me.

I started traveling across the country, playing all kinds of events, from nightclubs to corporate events, you know, film festivals, charity galas, the whole gauntlet.

And then it started taking me stateside and then around the world.

And so from about 18 to 25, I ended up traveling the world about 12 times over.

Hong Kong, Dubai, Belgium, you know, Spain, all these markets, playing music and controlling the vibe in all of these different settings.

And that really is what exposed me to the true power and influence that music has over people, regardless of their cultural differences, their religious differences, their linguistic differences, all of that, like music truly was this universal language that we always hear about.

Yes, I got to experience that firsthand.

So long story short, you know, doing that full time, DJing all over the world, sort of harnessing the power of sound and music to influence human beings, right?

Make their day better, make that little window of time that they might be in that room a Little bit better.

Helping them forget about their, their worries and their anxieties and their fears.

And then I started working with a lot of agencies that were agencies of record on behalf of big brands.

And we started to basically I started an entertainment company whereby we were the talent that was always being brought in for these brand activations, these corporate events.

And I saw that, you know, music was always an afterthought.

They all spoke about branded experiences and multi sensorial marketing.

It was largely marketing speak.

They just left sound till the very end after the P and L had been eaten up, after the budgets were eaten up, you know, they did everything else and then they were worrying about sound and music.

The fact.

Yep.

And so I started pushing back and challenging that, you know, that rhetoric and basically going against the grain and competing with what those people that were hiring us to just provide music and entertainment.

We started actually producing those entire events, top down.

And that's when I started really going to brands.

This is about 2009 and I was saying, do you know what your brand sounds like?

Have you truly thought about it?

You know, through the line, across the fold, not only your commercials on TV and radio and your digital content, but everything down to your hold music when someone calls you, everything down to your product and app notification sounds obviously your events, your activations, like every point of which your brand is speaking to consumers or prospective consumers.

Have you thought about the congruency in what you are actually saying?

All these noises you're emitting because you're doing it whether you're thinking about it or not.

And you have really stringent guidelines on your visual and verbal identity, you have no guidance on your sonic identity.

So that was the question that really sparked things for me in about 2009, 2010, started working with different brands in that capacity.

And you know, fast forward 13 years later, a lot has happened, a lot has changed.

And today I am at Song Trader, a VP of growth for Music Solutions.

And we're doing some really interesting things within the context of brands and music.

And you know, Song Traders started as a music licensing marketplace, really.

The founder and CEO Musician himself was frustrated by the lack of tools and infrastructure that existed for artists to easily be able to monetize and sync their music for commercials, spots, advertising.

And it was through that frustration that he started building Song Trader.

And a lot has happened over the last 10 years with song Trader, but today we actually have acquired 11 different companies.

I believe it's 11 now.

And our thesis is that there's a lane that exists or sorry, rather There's a lane that doesn't exist in the world of music and brands.

And what we've been doing is building tools and infrastructure and solutions for both sides of the ecosystem.

And what I mean by that is, you know, if you own a house.

Right, Right.

Or an apartment, and you want to either sell it or rent it out, you're going to want to work with a brokerage that is going to get you the max exposure on your listing, you know, the highest transaction price and, and kind of navigate that.

On our side, what we're building for the supply side of the market.

So these people might not own real estate, but they own ip.

Right.

They are positions, they are creators, they are labels, they.

They own ip and we are helping them with tools to monetize that IP and monetize their music rights.

And, you know, whether they're selling it or renting it out, that's where we come in on the supply side of the market with the creators, the labels, the content owners.

Then there's the demand side.

It's like, who is going and renting that Airbnb?

Who wants to buy that house?

Yeah.

On that side of the equation are all the brands and agencies.

Right.

They, they're the demand side.

They're the people that want to use what these creators have to offer.

Right.

And we have a whole suite of solutions and technology that we're building for that side too.

So we're really sitting in the middle of this very interesting marketplace of creators and content owners and musicians and rights owners and people that want to use that likeness, that music in commercials and advertising and various things.

So that's, you know, gist of what we're doing within Song Trader.

And, you know, we can get granular but high level.

That's kind of what we're.

Yeah, yeah.

Geez, you left me with a lot to unpack here, man.

That's.

That's some good information and a perfect introduction.

You know what, it sounds like quite a amazing transition from taking your love for music, DJing, the vinyl, traveling the world, getting these experiences and then what you started to do or what you realized, I guess with the branding and the lack of, I guess, consistency across all pieces, how you mentioned that these corporations and companies were having events and thinking of the music last and then probably never considering how music ties into the other aspects of their marketing.

And I'm pretty sure even now with the growth and emergence of social media and that side of things, people probably understand in theory that it's good to throw some music behind your Videos and all that little, you know, the stuff that people are doing, sort of following the trend.

But for you to see that, because what year was that?

You said that was.

This is 2009.

So you were way ahead of the game, is what.

I'm sort of gathering on that.

As far as what we see Now, I mean, 13, 14 years, big difference.

A lot's changed.

But what kind of.

What.

What was it that kind of showed you?

Like, how did you come across or come about realizing that this was a gap that was missing and actually a need that companies needed to have sort of fulfilled to put this all together?

Yeah.

Yeah, great question.

So, you know, I had gone through my own experiences as a dj, Right.

And again, you know, I never expected to fall into the marketing, branding, communications, advertising realm in the traditional sense.

I hadn't cut my teeth at agencies.

I hadn't climbed the typical bureaucracy of ad land.

Yeah.

And so my perspective was really that of an outsider.

And I was knocking down the door in ad land with all of these agencies, brands, and holding companies saying, listen, like, you all need to really think about how you sound.

This is very important.

And it's often working at a subconscious level, meaning you're not really thinking about it and people aren't really thinking about it, but it's affecting them.

Because hearing is our most visceral sense.

Right.

It's the very first sense that we develop in the womb before we even see.

So as humanity, we have a profound, really deep relationship with.

With.

With sound.

True.

Going back to thousands of years, millions of years.

Even with cavemen and cave women, you know, sitting around a fire, by the time they.

They see danger, it's too late.

There's someone's dinner.

But they can hear danger, fight or flight.

They can do something about it.

Right.

Or, you know, historians say that when cave people started communicating and forming languages, it was done through music and melody.

And that's because music is emotional and emotions are where memories are encoded and formed.

And that's why we still teach our kids the ABCs, not by reading them, but by singing them.

Right.

And like Twinkle Star, Baba, black sheep.

And ABCs are, they're the same song.

So the verbiage might change, but, like, the melody is.

The notation is the same.

So leading into all of this, I was just going to the brands and saying, look, like this is actually nothing new that I'm saying it's just, as an industry, for some reason, you are overlooking something that other industries like Hollywood really understand.

Like, you know, look at Jaws or James James Bond or Disney films.

They treat their audio and visual creative as 50, 50 equals.

That's true.

Whereby advertising was treating it as like 9010 at best.

So I was really just saying, look, there is a really big opportunity here and it's nothing new.

This is leaning into human truths.

Yeah.

True.

That are as old as time.

Right.

Yeah.

And bringing them up to speed.

And also, the nature by which we consume information today is very different than when the advertising industry in the traditional sense was really founded.

Talking about back in the day with David Ogilvy and.

And all these JWT kind of forming back then, in the 50s, 60s.

Think about it, people would sit around a television set as a family and like, in a binary way, consume that information.

Right.

JFK would be speaking, you'd all be watching, they'd go to commercials and then like the Wheaties jingle or the Coke commercial or whatever would come on.

And that's how you consume the information today.

Very true.

Not only are we watching TV, we're on Twitter, we're on IG, there's LinkedIn.

There's like such a fragmented in, you know, ecosystem of how we consume information.

It's not binary by any means.

Yeah.

And so what used to work back then and their approach and treatment to jingles or music back then doesn't apply today.

And today it's like, if you're gonna spend millions of dollars in strategy and creative and production and a media buy to air a TV spot.

Right.

But everyone's eyes are on their phone when it airs.

Like, how do you peel people's eyes off their second screen and divert them to the one that you've planned for, invested in and bought airtime for?

Right.

So those are the questions that I started really asking these brands, their advertising agencies, their marketing, communication agencies of record.

Yeah.

Um, and that's really how it began.

It just.

It seemed so obvious to me, especially having gone through what I had gone through as a dj.

Right.

Because, you know, all these brands want to form emotional connections with human beings.

That's it.

So that they're top of mind and they can cut through to their heart and mind and ideally get them to part ways with their dollars.

Yes.

And you know, what I was doing as a DJ was not very different.

I was literally puppeteering the energy in these rooms, in these spaces, to influence human psychology, physiology, physical behavior.

Right.

And, you know, I thought, why aren't brands thinking about using a universal truth like music and sound to puppeteer the energy of these people?

They want to, you know, connect with, build Affinity and salience with and all these fancy terms that marketers use.

Yeah, it just was very clear in my mind.

So that's when I started really just saying, you know what, this needs to be addressed.

It needs to be fixed.

Let me, let me hone in on this space and give it my best.

Wow.

Yeah, that's amazing, man.

That's really cool.

And then like I said, the transition just kind of seemed, I mean, in your.

You telling the story, the transition kind of just seems natural for you to then get into your work with Song Trader.

I have a couple of questions about that.

Sure.

First, when was it founded?

Song Traders?

I believe it was founded in 2014.

Okay.

So still I joined, I've joined Massive Music, which is one off Song Trader subsidiaries.

So Song Trader, like I mentioned, we bought a lot of companies because we have this thesis that there is a picture that should exist that doesn't exist.

And we're gonna get all of the pieces off this picture together so we can start building it and we're well on our way.

But one of the things that we acquired was a best in class creative services music agency called Massive Music.

Right.

So I originally joined Massive September of last year after having run my own consultancy in Toronto.

Have a few other music related ventures that I had built.

And yeah, it was just natural fit, you know, Massive and I kept bumping heads.

Okay.

We were competitors and we just had a series of conversations and it just made sense to go down this path together.

So I joined Massive and then about three, four months into being at Massive, you know, I started digging a little bit deeper into our parent company.

Being Song Trader got you and, and working with a leadership team there to help sort of iterate and build and figure out our go to market strategy.

So yeah, yeah, it's been a really, it's been a really like natural journey.

Yeah.

And you know, to, to many, in many ways I still feel like I am DJing today, but now it's at scale.

I'm not stuck in a, in one booth, in one city at one time.

Right.

Yeah, it's like, you know, the notion of using sound and music to make someone's day better when they're checking into a hotel, when they're eating a meal, when they're grabbing a coffee, all of those instances to when, like I said, when they're using an app to send or receive money or whatever it might be.

Yeah, this, this is now like an invisible hand where we're controlling their sonic experience in all of these moments of their day.

Right.

Yeah.

When they're interacting with technology, consuming information, you know, all of these things going to an event.

Right.

And they're not necessarily thinking about these things blatantly.

Right.

But we, we are quite literally like guiding all of that from a sonic perspective.

And so now it's, you know, it's DJing at scale.

It's the same sentiment.

I like that.

But shaping.

Shaping the narrative on a global level, really.

Music is powerful.

Yeah.

Music is powerful.

Universal powerful.

I love it.

I hadn't quite considered the placement aspect.

That's really cool.

Just thinking about that as like specific instances of music being played.

Like you mentioned, I think like a lobby or an elevator concert.

Like that sort of thing is really interesting to sort of.

If you take a.

Take a moment to think about, I mean, all the different places and the applications of music throughout your day, it's kind of cool that there is trying to think of a word for you, but like, I guess the invisible DJ at that point, kinda still setting the tone and the atmosphere based on where it's needed.

That's.

Yeah.

Even when you like, you know, when you, when you go to go buy a coffee or.

Or anything and you, you tap your card.

Right.

If that little bleep or bloop isn't there.

True.

Now there's this cognitive dissonance and you're wondering, did my payment go through?

Or when you lock your car.

Yeah.

And you walk away, you're relying on sound and sound alone to convey that trust.

That's right.

Huge.

Yeah.

And like you're not going back and checking with your eyes visually.

Right.

So there's all these ways in which every day, when you start your MacBook.

The sound of it starting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like you're trusting the technology.

So there's all of these subtle kind of nuanced examples every day that if you were to take those things away, then it would get really awkward.

But when it's right, when it's, when it's seamless, like when a DJ is killing it, you're not thinking about it.

Yeah.

It's just.

It just works.

Yeah.

But when it's blatantly wrong.

Like if I go to a fancy Italian restaurant with my wife and they're playing death metal or country music, I don't know what happened there.

Death metal.

And it was like.

Yeah.

Fireworks.

But, you know, like, my point is if I go out to eat.

Yeah.

And I go to a specific restaurant and the music is counterintuitive to that experience, all of a sudden my food doesn't taste the same.

Yeah.

Right.

Or you're at a restaurant, you're having a good time, you know, and it's high volume, the place is buzzing, everyone's conversing and then there's this like 6 second gap between songs.

Oh, man.

You can hear the next table's conversation.

Right.

And just like those moments are really still overlooked in many ways by these brands that are operating these spaces.

Right.

And so, you know, we're coming in across the board again.

It's like not just about advertising and production and your commercial, but where else are you utilizing sound and music and audio in a meaningful way to ladder up to what it is you want to do as a brand or an organization?

Even like accessibility, inclusion.

DE&I companies have whole departments of this stuff.

True.

And you know, they're alienating people that are blind.

Right.

So if you truly want to be inclusive, why don't we, through audio, give blind people a way to way find your space or navigate your space.

Right.

Where they don't have to touch grail.

In a post Covid world, no one wants to do that.

So there's all kinds of different solves, which is really interesting to me because it's really, I guess, zooming out for a minute 50,000ft up.

Like it's about trying to make the world.

It sounds cheesy, but it's really about trying to make the world better.

Right.

Through sound, music and audio.

And, and, and that's kind of the, the philosophy and the narrative and the ethos.

Yeah.

And there's lots of different things that can stem from that overarching philosophy.

Yeah.

But, yeah, that's kind of the position we take, you know, as a group.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's deep, man.

I know you're kind of breezing over things, but you've mentioned so many gems and just different applications.

I'm sure people are listening, like.

Yeah, I never thought of that.

Like the car.

When you want to lock your car door, you don't hear the sound.

You're probably going to press the thing a million times, then go back to check and.

Yeah.

Or like looking for it in a parking lot.

You don't remember where you parked?

Right here.

That beep.

Okay.

I know you don't have a lot of time left and we've kind of.

I want to dive into the other side.

I think you call it the demand supplier side.

Right.

So the supplier side is.

The side is the artists.

So we do have a lot of artists that listen.

Tune into this podcast.

We love you all artists Keep doing your thing.

Can you maybe give a bit of a breakdown, like, who, what type of artist is this for?

Or, you know, just.

I'm sure you'll have a better way of speaking on everyone.

Okay, cool.

Everyone.

We, you know, we work with all the majors, all the different types of labels, indie artists.

We recently acquired Bandcamp, so that's 5 million artists and labels now.

And, you know, now we have all of this data to actually get those artists better looks and more opportunities.

So if one of our brand clients wants to produce, you know, a big campaign or some kind of artist partnership in Rio de Janeiro, well, we can actually go look and say, okay, who are the artists in the region that are culturally authentic to that region?

Not only that, who are the ones that are selling X amount of vinyl merch or music and have fandom, real fandom, attached to them?

Now, that brand can make a better informed decision about, you know, which indie artist to partner with above or below the line for their campaign or their partnership activation.

And, you know, those types of scenarios bring a lot of opportunity to artists.

Yeah.

And then, you know, in terms of placing music in commercials, we do that.

So we work with indie artists as well as majors.

We also supply TikTok's commercial music library with a lot of music.

So we're fairly ingrained into the ecosystem of, you know, content, technology, and creativity.

And really, we're living at the intersection of that.

But the road is wide open for creators, period.

You know, whether you're a new musician or you're a legacy musician, it doesn't really matter if you have heat and you have good music, like, the world will reward that and it'll take off and do its own thing.

And we are a facilitator to champion artists and champion musicians and actually champion the creative class so that they can again, you know, sell or rent more houses out.

Right?

Yeah.

Monetize their ip.

The thing that they've built brick by brick by brick, they have these catalogs sitting there.

Why don't we take that information and that likeness and actually try and, you know, put it out into the world?

Yeah, that's huge.

Maybe I'll try and sneak two more in.

I think we have enough time for that.

So, one, if you could maybe take what you're just explaining a little further, Say I'm a.

Because, I mean, Toronto is a good example.

We have a lot of great artists, great talent around here.

Some of them are names that are, you know, known, and some of them are super talented, but maybe not as common a name and maybe don't break beyond the city.

What would you suggest to maybe one of those artists that's sitting there with a ton of talent hasn't really cut through yet as far as wanting to be able to get music out there in these applications.

Keep, keep putting out records all the time.

Don't wait for that one record that you think will be perfect.

Especially in this day and age, the way we as human beings are consuming information and content and music, it's very different.

Right.

And that record that you, you poured your heart and soul into and mix and mastered like a hundred times and are just hedging all of your, you know, like betting the farm on.

Yeah, it may not work.

And the thing that you just put out as a little thing that you were riffing on and you uploaded it, that might take off.

Like, you, you can't really know that's true.

When it's going to.

When it's going to take off and when it's not.

And so I would just say be consistent because consistency builds trust.

Right?

Trust is like consistency over time.

So for those artists that are consistent, you know, someone might not like all of the records you're putting out, and that's okay.

Right.

So you're going to find your footing and you're going to attract your tribe through that consistency and then you're going to build fandom and those people are going to be evangelists and sort of propel your.

Your other records.

So, you know, do you be authentic to yourself and don't chase like one hit.

Just keep putting out records.

You never know when, when, when it's going to, you know, take off and it might not.

And you have to be okay with that.

You have to be comfortable with running the bases and not hitting a home run.

If you're just chasing a home run might be the wrong approach.

True.

You know, but if you enjoy running the bases and you enjoy playing the game and you enjoy the journey and the craft and the musicianship and the creative process.

Right.

That home run will more likely than not inevitably happen when it's meant to for you.

But I think it's really about being consistent.

Solid advice.

Wow, that's great.

I mean, tricky in this world full of social media and the social pressures to try and, I mean, you could easily get caught stuck in the weeds trying to create a certain image and maybe fixate on the wrong details.

That's great, man.

Keep pushing, keep consistent.

I think, yeah, I love chasing, chasing.

Someone else's audience to try and be like the next so and so.

Yeah.

Isn't going to work.

You.

You got to be the first you and not the second someone else, as my friend Clinton Sparks always says.

Right.

So, like, focus on you and be consistent and the people that.

That resonates with.

You know, it's better to have 50 people that really mess with your music and support you for who you naturally are.

Yeah.

Right.

Than for thousands of followers that will never come to a show or buy a ticket.

And we see that, like, people run up numbers on streaming and they try and sell a show and they can't get 50 people to buy a ticket.

Yeah.

Right.

Whereas someone on the other side might not have a lot of followers or likeness online.

Yeah.

But the people that they do do, they'll sell out 2, 300 people.

Right.

So I think you got to pick and choose what you're really aspiring to do as an artist, as a creator.

Are you chasing, you know, the.

The superficial.

Right.

Kind of likes and.

And stardom of it all, or do you actually want to just make music that you believe in, that you hope others will believe in and build brick by brick from there?

Oh, man.

Yeah.

Nailed it.

That's big facts, big words, wise words.

Man.

I wish we could continue this.

We'll definitely have to work out a part two, but yeah, thank you.

Yeah.

By and sharing, I should a couple things, I guess.

Shout out where people can find Song Trader or any of your other work online as well.

I don't know if you have time, but if there's anything to look out for, anything new you haven't coming up, please drop that here as well.

Sure.

I'll wrap it up really quickly.

So Song Trader can be found@songtrader.com massive music is massive music.com and myself Chesmara.

You could find me at shazmera.com s h e z m e h r a.com that'll link to my LinkedIn page.

Hit me up on there.

I'm fairly active on the platform.

Always happy to have a conversation.

Always happy to help if I can.

So, yeah, thanks for having me and reach out.

Yeah, thanks for being here, man.

Definitely a pleasure.

And yeah, we'll definitely keep in touch.

Hope to talk soon, guys.

Thanks for listening.

Have a great week.

Stay safe.

Be well.

Take care.

Bye.

Take care.