This is More Than Work, the podcast reminding

you that your self worth is made up of more than your job title.

Each week, I'll talk to a guest about how they discovered that for themselves.

You'll hear about what they did, what they're doing and who they are.

I'm your host, Rabiah.

I work in IT, perform standup comedy, write, volunteer, and of course podcast.

Thank you for listening here we go!.

Hello, and welcome back to More Than Work this week.

This is episode three of season six, and I'm glad you're here if you're listening

on the day it drops or another day.

This is a really important episode.

I recorded it actually back in March.

It's just taken a while to get it up, but it's with Martin

Henson of the BMEN foundation.

BMEN, you'll hear about as an organization that basically works with black men

on issues that affect black men.

It came out of the Me Too movement.

And I'll leave it for Martin, the founder to tell you why.

But it, to me, this conversation is one of those ones that I was hoping

to be able to have on this podcast, because I talked to someone who

was a Black Lives Matter activist.

Now he has this foundation and it's very inclusive as far as gender

identity and as far as sexuality.

And that really impressed me.

And it's pride month.

So I think it's a great time for this episode to air.

We're also just coming off of Juneteenth and Martin talks a lot about

his work dealing with race issues.

We had kind of a hard conversation at one point because I just, I asked

him what, what I could do as an ally.

And that's the one question you're really not supposed to ask the people who you

wanna be an ally to, but he gave me a great answer and I really asked it so

that other people could hear the answer.

I just appreciate the graciousness with which Martin received

my questions and received me.

I, what I want you to get out of this is just really to learn how to be an ally,

to those who you want to be an ally to.

And that could include yourself.

I think recently I found out more about how to better do that for

myself and figure out where I fit in.

These issues that some people deal with and these causes they fight for whether

they're for themselves too, or just for others, they can take a toll and

Martin had some great feedback on what he does to find balance and what he does

to have it not take too much out of him.

I work with the MS Society a lot.

Sometimes that takes a toll.

Sometimes that's difficult because I have Multiple Sclerosis and though I

feel very lucky in my path with the disease, I also feel like when I do

certain work in that area, it's difficult.

For other people like Martin it's around race and issues around being

black in America and even in the world.

And for you, it might be something else.

But, I hope that you really enjoy this chat with Martin;

that you learn something.

Let me know what you learn.

If you want, let me know your feedback.

And again, I really appreciate your time.

I appreciate listening.

Have a great day or night, or I guess it'd be one of those where you are,

and don't forget to leave a review and, um, rating or subscribe if you want.

Thank you so much.

Welcome back to More Than Work, everyone.

My guest this week is Martin Henson.

He's executive director of the organization BMEN, which we're going to

get into what that is and what he does.

Um, thanks for being a guest.

Thanks for having me.

I love talking about what I do as many ways as I can so, I'm excited.

Yeah, I'm excited too, definitely.

So, uh, where am I talking to you from right now?

I'm in Boston right now.

Is that where you're normally based?

I'm normally based here.

I'm also from Arkansas.

Been here for seven years.

It doesn't make me a Bostonian.

They let you know, but yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They're very specific about who's actually a Bostonian I think there.

Yeah.

Yeah, totally cool.

Let's first talk about just what is the BMEN foundation and about what that work

is that, that they do as an organization?

Yeah, BMEN foundation stands for Black Male Engagement

Network and an organization that's created for black men to work

on issues specific to black men.

I would do all this in inclusive way.

Making sure that we have all black men, black, straight, queer

trans involved in how we advocate.

And we do a variety of things, including a monthly meeting.

We do a lot of advocacy, both digitally and in community around the issues

that are specific to black men and how to talk about it in different ways.

We do programming.

Uh, we've done some COVID relief.

We've done some work around sexual harm.

And we, we're really focused on humanizing black men, creating more

support spaces for them, with the understanding that once we do that, we

can create better, stronger communities.

So that's BMEN in a bottle for you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And how did you come to decide to start that organization?

You know there's a few, few different paths.

I think they all align in different ways.

I'm a person who processes things later.

Like something can happen and it, and I'll move and react in ways that

that are trying to adjust to that.

Uh, but, uh, I'm not a person who immediately knows, "Hey, I'm gonna do

this in this way and it's going to happen just like So BMEN originally started in

response to MeToo and just me looking around and to seeing how men in general

or responding to what was going on.

And I wanted to do something.

And then I was like, okay, men of color have a different reality.

It sounds like black men have a really different reality.

Then I started talking to black men about it.

All black men need space to process all of these things, because we can't just

talk about black men in a way that just assumes that they're inherently predatory.

The conversation around sexual harm is expansive.

So then you have spaces just for black men to process.

And from there you do all the things that you have to do

organizationally to make a thing occur.

And now you have BMEN Foundation that has been around for 4 years.

And I guess with the response to MeToo, I

mean, I think, I think of MeToo, a lot of times in a very myopic way

of women's experiences with men.

But I do know that people that can be sexually assaulted if they're not women.

And it's not always assault anyway, it's other microaggressions and

behaviors towards women was what I was thinking of, but how did it, how

did it manifest itself looking at it from the perspective of black men?

Was it partly processing it like, "I'm not that kind of guy and I

don't do that kind of stuff", but also "I've had this experience."

I actually really have strong feelings about that

approach that men tend to have.

Largely I feel like it just is not helpful,

mm-hmm

um, to, to think about it that way.

But we, you know, as a guy, we kind of make our steps to understand that

moving from a more defensive space.

When I started to think about the things that were happening, I just, it was the

realization that, that MeToo was largely gender specific as in focused on women,

or people who were perceived as women.

And I was like, well what, how do we talk about this when, when it happens for men?

And I realized that men had a whole different paradigm or the world has a

different paradigm for how we look at men being victims and with that is, is

more different when you think about black men being victims and the victimization

of black men have fact it exists under.

So the language of support and even victimization that was coming from

MeToo didn't translate over to men.

And although men could in theory respond in the same way.

Uh, but they were, they would not be responded to in the same way.

Just, it just, all of that kind of said, well, we need something specific

for black men to be, to be human, to be vulnerable, to, to think about themselves

in different ways and navigate consent, not just from a way of beginning as

a, as a perpetrator, because as he gets into racialize, uh, framings of

black man, when you start to do that.

But all of the ways that we engage this.

So I moved and, and, and the people who were creating it with me moved

from this space that was at a specific reaction to sexual harm, to a more

holistic approach to black men that included and acknowledged the

reality that we also have that too.

So just more expansive and then focused on black men specifically.

Yeah, well, and the thing is, I mean just, a lot of times

what I, what you hear in media, or like in different in entertainment and

stuff is, it's almost like trivialized when men are harassed in a certain way.

Especially if it's by a woman, then it's like, oh, you know, they, then they make

jokes about the women kind of thing.

And it talks about the man, but it could be traumatic for, for

the guy and it might not be.

Like necessarily physically as scary in a way of someone smaller than you,

but it's also, it's really harmful, right, if women are acting that way?

Then you, and then you go outside of the whole women and men thing and just

expand to same, same sex or same, I guess, gender doing things and whatever, or, or

people being young and things like that.

And so I can see where there's shame created for men that's different than

women too, because it's almost like except it's almost accepted that.

You know, it's like one and how many now get, have experienced some form of

sexual harassment or assault anyway.

So it's kind of accepted that women will say that that's happened to

them because everyone knows it does, but for men it's, doesn't seem as

like accepted socially I guess.

Yeah, not at all.

And then we started to talk about minutes victims.

You get very curious reactions, the ones that I did, I just really didn't expect

largely that men are trying to take space away from women or they don't really care.

It's just, they're just arguing.

Uh, and I think what's happening for people who is that they've, they're

a say for a lot of women, they're given a space to be seen and heard and

understood within their experience.

Yeah.

And when you've never had a conversation around men experiencing things, these

things too, it can be difficult for folks to lean into that and see where

we're more alike than different because so much let's say for women, their

harm might be originated with men.

So just finding that specific way that men can really speak with each other

and affirm each other's experience has been so much of what I do.

And then the stigma and shame that encompasses all of these things that

impact us, not just sexual harm.

Those are the things that interest me and BEMEN as an organization is really

working to get rid of that because there's so many negative outcomes that

come from having to live with that.

Well, and you, you mentioned too that it's

inclusive as far as gender and sexuality and, you know, it's a space

for queer men or for transgender.

And I know one thing just in the, the movement I'm familiar

with, right in feminism, there's this whole idea that it's not as

intersectional as it should be.

And people are excluded based on, you know, gender assignment at birth and

things like that and so that's been a big criticism of the way the women's

movement for a long time actually.

And, and that it's excluded people of color, right?

I mean, that's a big one, like there's white feminists who are very specific and

not inclusive and then other, and then, you know, or that it's been seen that way.

And then there's work to be more inclusive at least by people who acknowledge it.

And so how did you and your organization, did you immediately

decide you were going to be inclusive or was that something you came to

realize needed to happen over time?

I immediately knew I wanted to be inclusive.

In my my network of people who were supportive a lot of, uh, black queer men

that I was just talking to about what was happening and how, and they were putting

me on to the fact that when we talk about things with black men, there's just kind

of unspoken rule there were that we're not really talking about men who are gay.

Mm-hmm

We were looking at them and it's very, uh, I

guess, heteronormative framework.

And I tried to lean away from the heavy, uh, terms of, we have a lot of academia

that come with them because the average person isn't thinking like that but

that's pretty much what the framing was.

We, and then we don't realize that we do that.

And they were just kind of putting me onto this.

So from there, I was like, I, well, we need to actually have a

space as intentionally inclusive.

One of the side effects is that when I go into other spaces and I say, Hey, BMEN,

you know, is intentionally inclusive to all men, straight, queer, trans,

the people look at it like, oh, well this, this group just works for gay men.

And because it's, it's almost like to even acknowledge it in

a specific way means it must...

These are all things that then you'd have to deal with when you

just like, it seems like common sense, but it's not necessarily

Yeah.

It's, it's interesting, right?

I've done some study more recently, on like policy creation so in looking

at who you include in policies and who benefits from them and things like that.

And it's, it's been a thing that I've realized is if you don't

intentionally include people, then you could be excluding them.

Then if the perception becomes that, because you included

them, it's only for them.

It's kind of a weird thing.

And it's

Yes.

Yes.

So one thing I learned in a leadership course is sometimes people

don't want to accept change because they feel like something's being taken from.

And it's almost like the people who fall under the heteronormative place,

and I don't really talk about that much on this podcast either, but just, it

is how our biases are formed because it is how things became cultural norms.

And so it's like, people do feel like something's being taken

from them, even though your organization didn't even exist.

But somehow now it's not for them.

And someone else has come in and taken it.

And it's a weird thing where they don't see inclusivity and having more

voices is actually benefiting everyone.

Yeah, and I value that and I'm always trying to push

in ways that I'm not normally or most likely to be acclimated towards.

So for example, I'm a straight man.

I don't know what gay men go through.

Intuitively, I have to build these spaces that allow me to, to, to hear

that and to then think about it.

Same is true for black trans man.

But when you get into the discussions around it, I think sometimes I ended up

feeling like I'm caught in the middle of how people would like to perceive

it because in very progressive spaces or very liberal activists, radical,

whatever you want to call it, they want the language to come with the advocacy.

And I'm like, if I'm talking to them around being just regular guys who

don't move in these spaces or use this language around how to be inclusive to

gay men, I'm not going to be like, well, we have to unpack the heteronormative

assumptions of the ways that we navigate in life and how it marginalizes...

I'm not gonna talk like that.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna say, Hey, you know, "Hey folks is gay, you know?

You think you got 20 dudes in here, nobody's gay.

Like, so we to just leave this person out."

Because you know that you have to kind of be almost more blunt

in some ways, but, but that's what it takes to pull people in.

What I say and what keeps me grounded is that most people if you think

about where they are in terms of change or feeling strongly about

ideas, most people don't care.

And then you have the people who are on the extremes who like care a lot

and people who are actually against it.

So my job is to move people a little bit to a place where they're more supportive.

Not to make them move like me, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you're right.

I mean, you have to meet people where they are, and I think we've lost sight of

that a lot, in in general, as a society, I mean, I'm definitely more liberal and

I definitely think that language matters and what we say matters and stuff.

And so I do stand up comedy and I, I could write, I could probably write

very offensive jokes just because I think I don't, I'll just say, yeah, I

probably have offensive of thoughts.

I know a lot of people do.

don't think we all operate like a hundred percent in this great

space all the time, but it's like, I choose not to do that, right?

I choose to use language that's I think is acceptable and I'm okay saying, and I'm

okay someone calling me out on, you know?

But I do think it's funny how there's no space for learning

sometimes and there needs to be.

And like, so the people you're talking about, or even if I talk to my family

and stuff about things and maybe I've learned and I've, I spent time with people

so I've understood a problem more, and I understand my role in trying to help

or, or staying away because it's not helpful if I'm trying to help, but I need

to talk to them in a way that they're going to be able to listen and process.

And if I just say some again, like some super academic thing or

whatever, they might not process it.

And then we've gotten nowhere.

It's almost like just making them feel stupid and talking down to them instead

of talking to them where they are.

So it makes sense what you're doing in other words.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I like it.

I like meet a ton of adult people and constantly learning.

So I enjoy it.

Yeah.

So you mentioned how the organization started out but you're

basically an activist really.

That's one word to describe you, I think, but, before that you

were working as a counselor.

So can you talk a little bit about the work you had started doing and then how

you evolved into pivoting to activism?

And they're probably related anyway, I imagine.

Yeah, I would say they're largely the same, depending

on how you unpack it and approach it.

One of my friends was telling me that I should tell people more that

I'm a mental health professional, because technically, I'm that.

I built an organization that can respond by building the

advocacy and support networks.

So I have a master's in counseling, was doing that, uh, doing that, meaning that

I was providing therapy and, and support and doing different coordinations.

I've worked in a few different jobs; methadone clinic, group

home, so on and so forth.

So always knew that I enjoyed helping people and supporting them navigate

from one space in their life to another.

The piece with being a very traditional counselor is that you're, you're

an office doing therapy with people probably five to six hours a day.

Doing paperwork, the rest of that time.

And, and seeing that and in the networks of being a therapist and, you know,

dealing with insurance and dealing with the atmosphere in psychology, which is

largely guided by the white philosophy and psychological theories and having

an outlook that's very specific and focused on no black people, people of

color and issues that they navigate in ways that other folks don't deal with.

I just felt like, okay, I need to have my own.

Why sit up here and wrestle with these folks to be more inclusive

when I can just create something?

Uh, from there I was already doing activism.

I did a lot of stuff with Black Lives Matter.

Did a lot of teaching and speaking to this same vein of the things that I do now.

And I was like, all right, well, if I can just build my own organization to do this,

Didn't know anything about how to do it.

It's a whole process,

Yeah.

Basically a business, which, um, you'd have to know

how to, to manage, but that's...

in the middle of all of the things I was doing.

That was just another expression of my values to move like this.

Yeah.

So do you do any counseling anymore on the professional side or it's completely?

No.

I don't do that, but I can always consult because you know,

of course I went to school for it.

it helps in ways where you can look and pick apart research and really be

able to identify how, what I'm doing works and what makes it impactful.

As opposed to kind of moving off my own energy and charisma.

Like I know exactly what makes this important.

And I know how the research trends.

I know how they talk about black men in a way that I don't think someone who came

from a different field from counseling or social work would be able to do.

Yeah, cause you have all the background and you're coming at

it with the thought of, I mean, there's a lot of empathy involved I'm sure.

And removing your personal experience some or having empathy for what other

are doing or they have experienced,

So with BMEN, I mean, is it just local to Boston or is it an organization

people can interact with from anywhere?

People can interact with it from anywhere.

Due to COVID.

We had to create a digital format for us support spaces and meeting.

So any physical activities are focused in the Boston in the greater Boston area.

So when we do the Bridging the Gap program event, which is something

where we partner with the Transgender Emergency Fund is another organization

and bring black straight men, trans women of color together to talk about

how we exist and overlap in our lives.

That stigma that we go through.

So we can create better outcomes for both, , with a big focus on creating

good outcomes for trans women of color, That would have to be in

person because that's where we are.

Um, but the digital stuff can happen from anywhere.

Cool.

No, that's great.

And is most of the focus on the MeToo aspect still or did it

expand to just like generalized experiences and different subjects?

Oh, it just, it just expanded.

So, what the MeToo part became was us doing sexual harm workshops that we

did, uh, a year or two ago and holding that as something that that's in

our bag or something that we can do.

Thinking about consent, think about man's approach to their bodies as

well as to the people around them.

Uh, so that's still there, but like you said, it just expanded.

Hmm.

Cool.

And then as far as your activism and your work with Black Lives Matter,

I assume you're still doing that.

Oh no, no, not anymore.

No, not at

I retired from, from that piece, but I did

it for a good period of time.

It was about six years.

Uh, Really learning what bringing something up from the ground looks like.

We used to go out and talk to dudes groups of people around what Black Lives

Matter meant, how it was relevant to issues at the time, how we think about

incarceration and police brutality.

And in my more recent work has kind of transitioned into restorative justice.

So all of my stuff kind of just kind of grows outward.

No one, one part may end in my connection to on the groud work and

that form of activism, but I've picked up the restorative justice piece.

I've picked up BMEN Foundation.

I picked up the, just the advocacy and the constant

educational stuff that I'm doing..

Can you talk a little bit about restorative justice

and what that means, basically?

Just for listeners to hear from someone who is working in it versus me explaining

it now, and then asking you to agree.

for sure.

I came across it in the, there was a package of ideas that came in at

Black Lives Matter movement, movement against police brutality, whatever

synonymous frame that you have for how we start to think about our

relationships to police and police brutality after the death of Trayvon

Martin, that happened about 10 years ago.

which is crazy.

It's that long ago now.

I mean,

It is insane.

Restorative justice was one of those ideas in kind of this, this

grouping of thoughts that we, we had around how to be different.

And basically what it means is creating alternative responses to

harm that don't lean on punishment.

So you're restoring people's relationship to community as opposed

to ostracizing them or punishing them.

And there's the variety of things that come with that, that can be

considered restorative, or within the realm of restorative justice.

A lot of restorative justice is derived from indigenous groups, uh, natural ways

of orienting themselves towards holding community and responding after harm.

So I've done a good bit of work in that sitting in circle with like literally in a

circle of people is one of those ways to, to talk about and deal community as well

as respond to things that are harmful.

So there's, there's things that happen within the judicial system that also

can be considered restorative justice, uh, where people who have done some

level of criminal offense are able to meet with the victims of their crime and

sometimes they can impact sentencing.

Uh, sometimes it doesn't.

But we're seeing more opportunities to think about how we navigate the

prison industrial complex that's different from what we were doing

before, as we've seen this been so harmful to black people of color.

Yeah, well, and yeah, just the punishments are longer.

Often get sent to different facilities, things like that.

So when you look at your overall what you've been doing and you were doing the

counseling, activism, which you're still doing, but in a different way and BMEN.

And you did say like, it reflects your values.

So it seems like your work has always reflected your values.

Is that something that like, did you get into counseling because

you wanted to help people?

I mean, you had the whole time to think about during college and

grad school and stuff like that.

So how did you become a values-centered person I guess?

The church.

The church.

I grew up in a church, I don't know if you've had experience, but for the

folks who have, you know, when you go, you, I went to a private school.

That was a Christian private school.

I would be with my grandmother.

Don't let it be a revival in town.

We were going to church every, every day.

You speak in Easter Sunday, you know, you just have all of these things

that are balled into you about how to value people and treat folks as well.

And wanting to be in a very Baptist sort of way, kind of the

light that shines so people be attracted to the work that you do.

So that I think I just came up with that.

My dad was a pastor.

It was just, it was always around in that level of community in

centering, uh, what people need.

Primarily through kind of a spiritual way, but I think I

took that into my everyday life.

And then I grew up in community centers.

My mom had me in community centers, community programs all the time.

And she, she runs one now and has been involved in running

this as long as I can remember.

Uh, uh, my dad being a pastor, my, my stepdad to teach me all these

things about how to be in service.

My stepdad used to make me read black history books when I

was little and write a report.

I hated it at the time.

I tell them how appreciative I am of him because all of these things made me

like, oh, we have to treat people well.

We have to treat people better because all of that history is something

that I carry with me so much now.

And that value for people that look like me.

And I remember after Black History Month, you know, there's

a standard stack of facts they give you in Black History Month.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I always knew more and I always just thought about it differently.

All of these things just put me in you know this particular box

to where my values are always in the front of how I want to be.

I want to wake up when I'm 65, 70 and be like, I, I did everything

I wanted to do, you know.

I don't have any regrets around what I could have offered the world.

That's what I want to be.

And I feel like I am.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's really great.

And it's interesting what the church, I mean, I have various experiences

with religion that some aren't great.

I mean, religion is also used as a weapon in the U.S.

for sure.

We have the whole separation of church and state.

However, when you look at the church, it's really the Christian

right-wing whatever has this huge stake in the government and in law.

And we're seeing it now and the "don't say gay bill", and we're seeing it.

I mean all the time.

I don't want to get into that cause I'll take away from what your message is today.

So it's a weird thing how it's worked out in the U S but then the religion

you're talking about, and the church you're talking about is very different

because it's very service-based and it's more in line with what

the Bible I would say is teaching.

I mean, if I was gonna say like, yeah, I, I believe in some part of it, it would be

that part, not the other stuff, you know?

if I'm honest, sometimes it's not different, you know?

I've, I've still the South is the South, you know, uh, I don't know what you

know, about the Bible Belt, but it, it,

uh, it can be intense down there and for me to have my value set and the

way that I grew up in all of my beliefs to come together, it's, there are

contradictions that I had to navigate.

Uh, there are spaces that I know because.

I've done so much work and thought that I can navigate in.

I can start having those, those dialogues.

So even with the, don't say gay stuff, I'm thinking in my mind, you

know, I, as a dude that does this work and does this level of advocacy,

a straight black guy, I know that there's an ear that will listen to me

in a way that won't listen to others..

So how do I use that?

Cause then, you know, I do I think about, Hmm, what, what would my, how

would my BMEN pitch be in that place?

Because it would have to be different.

Right.

They have to be different, but the goal is

to end up at the same point.

The Christian radical right.

Is, uh, is something that, you know, black people have been dealing with since

we've gotten here, you know, they brought us over on ships and, uh, tried to, uh,

Christianize us and then changed, changed, just so that if you were baptized that,

uh, you were still considered a slave because being a baptized Christian...

it was all of these ways that religion was used to codify the institution of slavery.

Uh, and it still happens as it relates to racism.

So even in my advocacy, uh, I don't lead first with the, in the religious sector,

but I know from my history and what I've been doing, I know I come from that.

I got to deal with those contradictions too.

In work that I'm doing is, is that much more important.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

It's interesting.

And it's interesting too, like your, yeah your faith is kind of some.

Provided you with the, the service mindset and stuff, but then also has

led you to have to serve in a way.

So

Yeah, cause I'm always like, you know, I, you

know, I, I be like, I don't know.

We, we have the same, you know, religion technically, but I don't

know who they praying to cause the way they move in is real different.

Yeah.

I've I've had, I've had a lot of really hard conversations

with people who, uh, you know, when you come from the church because

there's can be a lot of stuff that can be really harmful to have.

Uh, so yeah, that's why I say I, because I come from this space, I know

how people think I gotta be in there doing the work to deal with that stuff.

So other folks ain't got to deal with it.

That's that's my, my theory on being an ally, being an accomplished.

I got you on this.

If you got me on that, I got you.

Yeah, well, an allyship is another thing that I

found that there has to be taken with it because you can do harm.

Like someone like me, I've learned a lot in the last couple of years and

especially, I mean, with the death of George Floyd, I mean, that was the big,

the moment for a lot of people, even though you would say, well, yeah, and

I've been dealing with this forever, but then, you know, for, and I would say I

was trying to be an ally before, but then I became much more aware of what that

meant and much more aware of experience because seeing that and knowing if that

person looked like me or resembled me or a family member or something, it would

have been a lot different experience than what I went through with watching it.

And the emotions and stuff.

And so I, one thing though that I learned was like, don't ask

people what the problem is.

Like, don't ask them to tell you why it's a problem.

Learn more about the experience.

But I do think that there is a need to ask questions sometimes.

But how do you feel about that?

Like, what if I can just ask something that's probably like an annoying

question, but like what should people do who want to be better allies at this

point, like, cause you know, there's the whole idea, like companies looking

for Black History Month they'll promote stuff, but then have a sale or some

weird, like that's not what it's about.

Like, no, one's worried you didn't get 20% off on shoes.

That's not the problem, you know?

Or, you know, people will post memes or like when the Black Lives Matter.

Um, the blackout on social media and then everyone, all,

everyone put a black square.

So then it was like, well now you're taking up space somewhere else.

Just from your perspective, if you were going to tell someone like me,

how to like what's helpful or harmful, if you don't mind, what would you say?

I would always say that, um, just keep digging within the question.

So if somebody, if somebody was like, well, what can I do to be a better ally?

Ally to what, in what way?

What is it?

What is it that's bothering you?

What is it that you want to do?

So taking out all of the work from me to have to process that and then be

like, all right, well, where do you see yourself being the most purposeful?

Or what is your understanding of this problem to this moment?

I've done a lot of work.

I'm not, I used to be real different.

And I just acknowledge that.

And I think also within our, how we think about, uh, allyship and,

and being supportive to people, we have, it's okay to, to not have

always been where you are now.

I think sometimes people are afraid of that.

But as it relates to the, Don't Say Gay Bill, maybe a me from 10

years ago, might've asked somebody yea, what they thought about it.

What do you think about this?

You give me the summary of your experience reacting to this thing

that is obviously terrible for you.

The me now, I'll go into it, read it.

There's podcasts everywhere, you know?

We're on one now.?

And somebody that really boils it down and summarizes it.

And they're not going to find a direct spot of intervention.

So then my question becomes, Hey, this is what I'm thinking

about doing to address this.

What do you think?

Now it's far more concise around my intent and action plan

that's already been developed.

Now if I'm, if it's somebody who's wanting to understand that better and

they're not even at that point, then I I'd kind of keep it more general because

I think there's a group or segment, let's say every relates to white and

black issues, the segment of people that was just like, just tell me what to do.

I'll do whatever I'm so bad.

Yeah.

Yeah

you know?

And tell me, tell me I'm a bad person.

It's just like, it gives, you know, it can get weird.

But just having discussions around distinctions and differences.

I think that's what's a powerful intervention.

Even just the support spaces that we do for black men, just bringing people put

together to talk about these things.

That's a big thing.

Just bring people together to talk about this issue and just process it.

That may be with, let's say for white people that may begin with white

folks if there's a question that you think you're kinda all reacting to.

Sit in a space where you can honestly give your opinion to somebody in a

way that's not going to hurt the group that you're trying to navigate with.

And that might, that might actually be your work, just to

give people space, to process it.

But it can be a lot of things.

It can be a lot of things as it relates to, to BMEN, I would say,

I'll always be like, oh, donate.

Support our stuff.

Share our stuff on social media.

Let people know about the advocacy that we do and the framings and

the perspectives of black men that we have in America specifically

and to some degree globally and how harmful they can be because there's

people out there doing, doing this work and, you know, there's a lot

of connections that can be made.

But yeah.

So hopefully I noticed that a lot, so hopefully I answered you.

No, no, that's great.

And I think it's good just to be able to ask the question of someone who's gone

through the experience of interacting with someone who's maybe you said things

and also showing that you've evolved.

I think that's important too, because I do think there is a lot of guilt

that people feel, but my guilt, if it's mine, my guilt is not your burden.

Like that's not the additional burden you need to take on now because I was maybe

not doing something in the past where I had some thoughts in the past or whatever.

And that's what I think is important just in general, just in thinking about

it right now is like, don't put your guilt on the people who you're trying

to help because that's not helpful to them, you know that's kind of

some kind of misplaced way of doing things.

But yeah, donate like maybe if you feel guilty, donate, but don't tell them

you've done it because you're guilty.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Another example.

I was talking to a friend of mine, from back in college around how things

were, and we were talking about how kind of homophobic the atmosphere was.

And, and, telling me about how things impacted him, uh with that

atmosphere, like, I wanted to sit in my own guilt about like who I was then

and how I might've thought about it.

You know, I think I was still progressive and thoughtful, but it wasn't like this.

And I probably thought or, said or did things that are harmful.

But you know there was an impulse to want to be like, ah, man, I feel

so bad, like to lean into that.

And I think just acknowledging it, taking the time to process that and then moving

into what you can do now, uh, as opposed to kind of really sit into, into these

guilt, uh, laden spaces where there's some spaces that people would just, just do

that, do the thing and like I'm terrible.

Uh, I, uh, you know, I just, I can't do that.

I hate those conversations and people will try to have them with me.

That's somebody else's ministry is not mine,

Yeah.

Well, so one thing, just knowing, for example, for me, like when I do

some non-profit work, some of it's really personally exposing for me

because I'll be talking about my experience with different things.

I, I do work with a couple of organizations, um, around issues

that are, you know, have affected me.

And I know that can get emotionally taxing and difficult.

And if I was doing it every day, I think it'd be hard.

So how do you work on setting up boundaries for yourself that so

you can still enjoy your life, even though you're kind of dealing with

really heavy things all the time?

Yeah, you, you I've said this before.

When, when you're taking on more things, that'll have an emotional

tax on your intellectual tax on even the spiritual tax on you.

You have to be more vigorous.

And the way that you utilize yourself care, you just, you just have to be.

Uh, one of those things.

It's time.

You just, you can't just react to things as they're happening or

you'll be doing stuff all the time.

Working all the time.

So what are your time blocks that you can devote to this thing?

That's one way.

Another way, having a therapist.

I've had one throughout my life and very different, different periods.

Get you one.

And get you a group, a group that you rock with.

Uh, I think BMEN support groups are also therapeutic for me, a place

where you can let off the steam of the work that you have to do.

I make sure I have make more time for myself, but this time there's a bit of

time where I didn't really take aside from going to see my daughter in Arkansas.

I didn't really take vacation.

I was just getting it every day.

Now, if I don't do this, then you know, this, the world is going

to fundamentally change and that in a way that's irreparable.

But I think we forget we're we're not the first people that are going to care and

take on the healing and, uh, structural change work that we know needs to happen.

And we're not going to be last.

It won't apart, but it doesn't mean that the work that we do,

isn't unique and purposeful.

But for us to continue to do it in a way that preserves our humanity,

you have to have boundaries.

You have to have structures taht allow you to flex your

emotional range too, you know.

Some days you, you you're angry some days you want to cry some days you're happy.

Some things are surprising you, uh, and for me, when I'm not flexing that well

enough, my range of emotion shrinks.

It becomes the range that is necessary to complete whatever tasks that I'm doing.

So that's that lets me know.

Okay, you need to go do some other stuff.

If this is happening.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, that's great.

That's I, it's good to just hear about that and what what's been helpful for you.

So thanks for sharing

Yeah.

All right.

Well, I know you just said a lot that could be construed as advice.

So you can just say, you want to bypass this question, but I just

like to ask people, like, is there any advice or mantra you like to

share or maybe some like, thought you just like to leave people with when

you do interviews or or anything?

I think, there's a whole bunch of mantras that

I move, and, and, and live by.

And one of those is this moment will never happen again.

Like the right now, if you have, like me and you talking.

You cannot replicate it.

It's impossible.

So thinking about your life in that way, your everyday and,

and who you want to be, waiting.

You can't guarantee that you're going to have another opportunity

to be who you always want it to be.

So just doing that, you know

. Rabiah Coon (Host): Yeah.

Great.

Yeah, no, I love that.

And that's something that on this podcast I try to get out.

So.

That's awesome.

All right, so now I have a set of questions called the Fun Five.

They're just kinda light.

So, uh, the first one is what's the oldest t-shirt you have in still wear?

Um, I got a shirt that has Arkansas on it.

It's a great shirt.

Arkansas.

It's like kind of faded.

A few holes in it.

I wear it when I work out, it makes me look really muscular.

Yeah.

I've probably had this shirt for maybe 15 years.

But, um, I'm a, hold on at least I get another shirt.

That's almost the same thing.

So

That and that that's good for working out for flexing

I look big, you know, you want to, you know, have

a good pump in a super tight shirt.

That's kind of how it goes.

So.

Nice.

Okay, cool.

And, um, if everyday was Groundhog's Day, like it seemed for a while because

we were just having the same kind of repetition, especially when we were

in, in our lockdowns everywhere.

What song would you have your alarm clock set to play every morning?

You know, there's a few cause I listen to music all the

time, but if I had to hear one song over and over again, I feel like if

it had to be something from Michael Jackson, it had to be some, some

Michael Jackson, maybe Remeber the Time.

Yeah.

I would, I would go Remember the Time.

Yeah,

Okay.

Yeah.

And it starts off kind of, it has cool sounds in it and stuff

yeah.

All right.

Cool.

So, Remember the Time.

And then coffee or tea, or neither.

Neither actually in the morning some days out I'll drink,

I'll drink raw eggs, just protein.

Yeah.

It's disgusting, but I've done it for years and years and years.

Uh, so I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I don't do any caffeine generally,

unless

That's good.

significant going on

yeah.

Okay.

So yeah, I mean, that's, you know, raw eggs is the first time I've

heard that answer, but that's.

It's good.

I can be surprised sometimes, you know?

Oh, all right.

And then can you think of a time that you like laps already cried or just something

that cracks you up and you think of it that just makes you happy and laugh?

So I love laughing cause that's my way of, of having balance.

So all people either say I'm liking this serious or sarcastic.

I got this, this no real in-between.

There's this video, so insane.

They recreated the sound of a mummy, they're it's like an interview where

they're on I'm going to say ABC, NBC, and they're talking about the process.

And they recreate what the sound is.

And it says like mmmmmmm something like that, but people have dubbed

over it and put like really ridiculous sounds in a place of

what the sound the mummy would be.

And every time I think of it, I laugh because there's just so absurd.

Yeah,

That sounds good.

All right.

And, uh, then who inspires you right now?

uh, me, me.

You have to forgive me if it sounds arrogant, but I, you know, I just

been through so much and in the, the work to constantly be on the edge

of things that you don't know and trying to get better at, uh, that's a,

that's a conscious struggle every day.

Cause I could just find a thing and just do that.

And, uh, that could be my thing, but I, part of working around stigma and

talking about these unconventional topics is that I have to, I have

to lean into the unknown always.

You know, if you imagine somebody going through a jungle and

there;s like, there's a path.

And then there's like, all I want to do a new path, is

like whacking weeds and stuff.

I feel like that's me all the time.

And having to be comfortable in that, is, is a whole process.

But to be able to kind of look in the mirror and see who I've become

and and know that I'm the culmination of all of these people and, and

friends and family, and even my child, that just pouring into me.

And, um, I'm still here.

Uh, I'm inspired by, by still being here.

And I'm still inspired by who I see in the mirror every day.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I mean, I don't think it's arrogant.

Like it sounds at first, if you go, oh, well me, but then you hear

why and it's, I think it's great.

So you should be.

I think you're, I think you're great.

So for what it's worth, I'm inspired about what you're doing.

Yeah.

all right, Martin, so people want to find you

and find your organization, where do you want them to go online?

And of course I'll have it in the show notes.

Yeah.

You can check out organization at BMEN Foundation dot org (bmenfoundation.org).

You can find us on Twitter, facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, at BMEN (@bmen).

Uh, to see more about the work that I'm doing, as well, you can check out martin

h speaks dot com (martinhspeaks.com).

So yeah, I'm out here doing this work and, and you'll see me

doing more of it as time goes on.

Awesome.

Well, thanks so much for taking the time to chat with me today.

It was really great to learn about what you do and the really

important work you're doing.

So thank you.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for listening.

You can learn more about the guest and what was talked about in the show notes.

Joe Maffia created the music you're listening to.

You can find him on Spotify at Joe M A F F I A.

Rob Metke does all the design for which I am so grateful.

You can find him online by searching Rob M E T K E.

Please leave a review if you like the show and get in touch if you

have feedback or guest ideas.

The pod is on all the social channels at, at more than work pod

(@morethanworkpod) or at Rabiah Comedy (@rabiahcomedy) on TikTok.

And the website is more than work pod dot com (morethanworkpod.com).

While being kind to others, don't forget to be kind to yourself.