Foreign Head Start Basketball Just making sure, hey, does every decision we have, is this going to affect winning or not?

And if it doesn't, don't worry about it.

We'll figure it out down the road.

And then the culture.

We got to get the kids to play really hard, to be really connected, to understand how to win, to be about each other.

We just want culture.

Ben Wilkins is entering his fourth season as the men's basketball head coach at Seton Hill University.

Under Wilkins, the Griffins have posted three consecutive 16 win seasons, tying the most wins in the program's NCAA Division 2 era.

The program also notched its first ever Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference tournament win over Edinburgh in 2025, tied the school record for road wins and beat two nationally ranked teams, just the second and third such wins in school history.

Prior to Seton Hill, Wilkins was the Associate Head coach at Army West Point where he helped guide the most successful four year stretch at the Academy since Mike Krzyzewski.

Earlier roles included Mount St. Mary's where he was the associate head coach and made two NCAA tournament appearances, William Mary where he spent six years under two time CAA coach of the Year, Tony Shaver and Barton College where his final recruiting class helped capture the 2007 NCAA Division 2 National Championship.

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Grab your notebook and pen as you listen to this episode with Ben Wilkins, men's basketball head coach at Seton Hill University.

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads podcast.

It's Mike Cleansing here without my co host, Jason Suckel tonight, but I am pleased to be joined by Ben Wilkins, head men's basketball coach at Seton Hill University.

Ben, welcome to the Hoop Heads pod.

Thanks, Mike.

Fired up to be here.

Excited to have you on.

Looking forward to diving into all the interesting things that you've been able to do in your career so far.

Let's start by going back to when you were a kid.

Tell me a little bit about some of your first experiences with the game of basketball.

What made you fall in love with it?

Yeah, Mike, you know, it's interesting come from Western pa.

I've actually spent more years of organized football and baseball than I have basketball.

So, you know, my first love was, was football and baseball.

When I was little, man, I loved those sports and just for whatever reason, didn't play basketball.

Basketball.

Western Penns is not as big as football, especially when I was growing up.

And so, you know, I got a little bit later, you know, Mike played a little bit of rec, but nothing serious.

And then, you know, seventh, eighth grade started playing, you know, basketball more seriously.

And it's interesting, I think sometimes in life, Mike, certain things happen for you.

And you know, what happened here is I'm not a guy that likes to get screamed and yelled at a lot.

And we had a new football coach come in that was a screamer and yeller.

We had an old basketball coach who was a screamer yellow and he left.

And we had a new guy named Joe Gunn.

Gunn come in.

It's an unbelievable human being and in baseball and kind of just lost the love of baseball.

And so really, you know, I love to say, like, man, I super loved it.

You know, I was young.

Some of us, I just didn't want to get yelled at as a player.

And I wanted to, I wanted to play for somebody that I liked in sports.

And you know, Joe Dunn kind of really changed my life.

And you know, before that, Brad Wetzel was a ninth grade coach and those guys kind of really, it was about coaches a little bit over the sport, Mike.

And then I fell in love because of those guys.

And then, you know, I found that, you know, I think it fits me a little bit more as a coach in football.

So probably a way different, you know, track than most people.

You know, I was just an okay high school basketball player, Mike.

Man, I wasn't great at all, but I, but I.

What I did get to do is play for two great coaches.

Tell me about those guys that you got an opportunity to play for and how they influenced you then and how they continue to influence you today in terms of how you approach your coaching philosophy.

Yeah, I think first and foremost, I think Brad Wetzel, you know, I was probably 15 out of 15 on the roster, Mike, you know, when I was a ninth grade team.

And to his credit, you know, I think he liked me because I was a good kid in his history class and.

But he treated me the same, right?

And he coached me and he helped me get better.

He invested in me.

He didn't treat me any different because I wasn't, you know, I wasn't helping when we played games and, you know, and I was a little overweight, Mike.

And, you know, I think sometimes you got to tell people the hard truth.

If, you know, you care about him and, and one day he's like, hey, Ben, man, if you ever lose weight, maybe you can play.

And then what it did is it actually gave confidence in me that, hey, I could play maybe, but I got to lose some weight, and then I lost some weight and helped.

So I appreciate that.

He always treated me the same as the best player, invested me, and then was willing to tell me the truth.

And I think people really want to know the truth.

And so I've carried that over with our guys.

I'm not scared to tell them the truth, but just like he did, it's not harmful.

It wasn't mean.

It was.

It was, was the truth that I needed to hear.

And I, I appreciate that.

With Coach Wetzel and then Coach Dunn, you know, he was way before his time, Mike.

I think he's, you know, people talk about modern coaches now.

He was a modern coach in 1997 and before that.

But, you know, he was not a screamer, yeller.

He was a teacher.

He cared more about stuff off the court than on the court.

He let us play without worried about making mistakes.

And my favorite thing that Coach Dunn always said is if we as players make a mistake and ever go look at the head coach and he's not doing his job right because we're worried about what his reaction is instead of going to the next play.

And so I think that's one of the biggest things that I try to do as a coach is, man, when our guys make a mistake, Mike, in a game, I don't want them looking at me and if they do, that means they're worried about me and I did something wrong, not them.

And coach, you know, coach loved us and screaming, yell.

And I always love, you know, there's two, three minutes left in a close game.

And he come in the big smile and say, man, this is a lot of fun.

I love this.

And you know, I just, I was just blessed, man.

But those two guys, those are two lessons or two stories that they gave me.

And it's cool being back here.

I may, we'll get to it.

But there, you know, I'm 25 minutes from Seton Hill and you know, I got a chance now.

Coach Wetzel, you know, is there.

And then I got a chance to Coach Dunn, my head coach.

I got a chance to coach against his son at Chippensburg.

So you talk about a full circle moment.

Mike, really surreal.

You know, he runs down the court.

I remember when he was 2 years old, and Mike's like, hey, coach, how you doing?

Big smile.

And it's like, you know, I smile him on a button.

It's like, that's special in life.

You know, sometimes we get this wins and losses and, and then seeing my coach there and you know, I think one of the coolest things is he said, he said, you know, the guys seem to really play hard for you and love to play for you.

And that might be the best compliment I've gotten in a profession because it's somebody that's means so much to me.

You know, I wouldn't be where I'd been without those two guys.

How do you establish that kind of culture where guys are, are, are not afraid to make mistakes and they're not looking over at you?

What does that look like on a day to day basis, in practice, in your conversations, how do you establish the fact that, hey, you got to play loose, you got to play with the ability to, to try things and not be afraid to make mistakes.

Because we all have been in situations, obviously, where we've played for coaches or seen players that we know play for a coach, where every time there's a mistake, the buzzer goes off and there's a sub coming in and, and anybody who's ever played in that environment knows that it's really hard to play when you're looking over your shoulder.

So what do you do?

How do you do that on a daily basis to make sure your guys understand that, hey, you don't have to look over here.

I want you to play and play loose and play free.

And obviously that doesn't mean there's no accountability, but I'm just curious how you balance that out.

Yeah, I think it's first just talking about the relationship with growth and, you know, anytime you grow, you're gonna have to fail.

And so for me, I talk to our guys all the time, like, hey, I want you to get in situations that you're uncomfortable in practice because.

And I want you to get better and making them understand that the first time you do something, you're probably going to fail.

And then just telling them, hey, that was a good rep right there.

Hey, now we do this a little bit better.

And so far just have a different relationship with failure is the first part.

And we talk, you know, one of our core values is growing.

And we have, you know, a phrase with that is be a man on the rise.

And so we want our guys to fail because if you're not failing, you're never going to grow.

And if for me, I'm just not a screamer and a yeller mic and, you know, it's just more a teacher, hey, you know, you did this.

Next time, let's look at this.

Let's use the film.

And I know the game's made of a million mistakes and, and no one intentionally is going on the court, try to turn the ball over and tried to make a mistake, but it's a hard game.

You make a million mistake, a million decisions in a fast period of time, you're.

You're going to make a lot of mistakes.

And I think it's just a little bit of mindset of letting them play through it.

And we use a film a lot, Mike.

I think film's a good teacher because then you.

Then you're doing it after the fact.

There's no emotions.

Everybody's looking at the same things and then say, hey, what can we learn from here?

But I think in game day, Mike, I think as a coach, way more than a tactician.

We are sports psychologists, and I think the more that we can give those guys confidence and be calm and help them out, the better the play.

Because I think most of our coaching should be done in practice, you know, game day.

You know, I think you got to trust your guys on game day and give them confidence.

And so I don't know if that answers your question, but that's kind of the mindset some of the things that we try to do.

But, you know, I'm okay with our guys trying to do different things.

And it's the only way you're going to grow.

Totally makes sense.

When I think about Just the ability of a coach to remain calm on the sidelines and not be going crazy.

And then you think about sort of that old school model that you talked about earlier of the guy yelling and screaming and everybody's looking over their shoulder every time they're out there on the floor.

I just don't think that you can get the best out of your players by approaching it in that way.

And I think you made a really good point in terms of the sports psychology aspect of it, right.

Is that when you think about the mentality of a 19, 20, 21 year old kid, again, there's a lot of, there might be a lot of bravado on the outside, but you know that on the inside there's a lot of questions and a lot of self doubt and a lot of trying to figure things out.

Just like I'm 55, I'm still trying to figure things out.

And so I know when I was 18, 19, 20 years old as a college basketball player, you know, I walked around like I had a lot of confidence and in some ways I did.

And then in other ways, you're always kind of questioning yourself and trying to figure it out and wondering, are you keeping your coach happy so that you can play?

And all those kinds of things that go into that.

And so for you to talk about being able to instill confidence in your guys, I think there's a ton, a ton of value in that.

Being able to get them to understand that you believe in them and then give them that opportunity, as you said, to try new stuff, especially in the practice setting, right.

Where as you said, when you're learning something new, mistakes come along with that.

When you think about the growth mindset and the ability to kind of push yourself into that area just beyond your comfort zone, right where you got to stretch for that new skill or whatever that may be.

So I think what I'm guessing is, is that a lot of what you do in terms of that is, is intentional in terms of your practice design.

So how do you, if you're, if you're trying to introduce something new that is new to, is new to your guys or something that you want them to, to try.

What does that look like?

What's the conversation look like?

And how do you think about, in terms of designing the drill or the, the four on four or whatever it is, however you put that stuff in and what's, what's the, what's the best way for you to introduce a new skill and make sure your guys understand that, hey, this is, this is going to push you maybe a little bit beyond what you're capable of right now.

Yeah, I think the first thing I'll give any.

Anybody listen, Douglas book on coaching.

I forget the name of it, but Douglas Moff has the best book you could ever about teaching and coaching.

And so I suggest anybody buy it.

It's elite.

And I think a couple of it is, first and foremost is you should, as a coach, write down and say, okay, what mistakes are my guys going to make right now when we put something new in and anticipate the mistakes?

Because part of that, Mike, is I think as coaches, sometimes we get so mad, it's like we feel like we're a bad coach and like, we get mad at the guys, but we're really, like, worried about our insecurities.

And like you said, we're.

We're dealing with.

We're dealing with human problems.

Right?

And so, like, first of all, okay, if I've already Mac and okay, these five, six mistakes they're going to make, and then when they make them, I can be a lot calmer because I already anticipate them.

And for our guys, it's like, you know, just saying, hey, we're going to work on a new concept.

It's going to be.

We did one the other day.

We work on different, like A three, low spacing.

And we're just like, hey, guys, it's going to be really bad.

And what I like to do is we sold some stuff from drake and Ben McCollum.

And so we show some film beforehand because I think we learn by visual the best, right?

And so I think the more you can show people what you want and they can see it, they can then.

Then reenact it.

And so showing those first is the best way.

And then our guys, you know what, we're 50.

50, Mike, man, we had some really good reps and some ones that look like we never did it before.

And in each time, just be really calm and be, hey, that was really good.

Hey, what do you want to do here?

Ask good questions.

And then the guys kind of learn.

And I think it's become a culture with our guys, like, so they're okay trying something new.

And.

And we were doing on a five.

On five, up and down.

Like they had a.

They had to just do it randomly, Mike.

So I think a lot of it's just anticipating it and, and, and knowing that.

One thing I've learned too, is anytime you put a new drill in, as a coach, you should expect that first drill is going to Be so bad.

Like, no one knows what's going on.

Everybody's going to fill out the drill, and then you got to come back the next day and come back to it and revisit it, and then it'll be good.

And so you almost just got to expect, guys, we're going to need this.

Day two, we'll get something out of this drill.

And don't get mad at the guys, because it takes a long time to figure it out.

And.

And last thing I say, Mike, you know, it's great for me.

I'm super lucky.

Like, I get to do this for a living.

My guys are going to class, and they're watching Netflix and they're hanging out, and I'm thinking about a drill for two hours, and I come in and explain it two minutes, and I expect them to.

To be thinking about it all day.

Like me, man, they just.

This is the first time they've seen the drill, so.

And it takes time.

You know, it just takes time.

And.

And you got to be comfortable.

And I do think, you know, part of that, Mike, is don't always put new drills.

I think drills are so overrated.

You know, I think that don't do a lot of drills.

That's what I was like to say, because every time you put a new drill, it takes two days to get something out of it.

So if you're always trying to get these new drills, you're just learning the drill, not playing how to basketball.

Sorry, I want a different direction there.

But, you know, that's.

That's our.

That's our concept.

But I think the biggest thing, if you could take a good visual of how to do it and show people beforehand, they'll.

They'll.

They'll.

They'll do a lot better than if.

Than any other way.

Talked a little bit about film before and then mention it again here.

How do you share film with your guys?

Is it mostly in a whole group, before practice, after practice?

When you're watching game film, what does that look like?

Are you meeting with guys individually?

Positionally?

Just how do you go about sharing the film?

Not so much how you break it down as a coach, but how do you share it with your players?

How much film are they seeing with you and your coaching staff?

Yeah, Mike, I love film, maybe to a fault.

Um, so what we do.

And I learned at Army West Point, you don't have.

You don't have that much time with your guys, right?

And so you can use technology to your advantage.

And so what I do is I. I Take every practice.

I have a team edit every practice.

And what I'll do is I'm talking like I am to you.

I use sports code, I use arrows, I talk and I.

And I just go through it like I'm talking to a team in front of me, right?

And then I upload it to YouTube and then we send it to our guys on YouTube.

And the reality is, again, I love film that films from 30 minutes to an hour right now.

And our guys watch it and our guys will come back and they love it.

They actually said sometimes they like it better than when we do in person because they can watch it on their term and they can slow down and rewind.

And sometimes you go too fast as a coach.

And so we do that as a team.

We don't, you know, sometimes we'll do it in front of the team.

Obviously we get the games and stuff, but I like that because I do every practice, Mike.

I haven't missed a practice at this year.

I think it's just a.

It's.

The film is a huge way to get better.

And then I do individual edits as well.

So then all of a sudden, individual might get five or six minutes of a clip and say, hey, Mike, you got to work on these couple things.

I do the same concept now with the guys.

All the guys that are in the rotation I'll meet with at least once a week and we do a 30 minute check in.

Hey, how you doing?

Tell me how you're feeling.

And then we watch the video and talk through it together.

And, you know, I believe as a coach, a head coach, there's nothing more important than my guys and investing in them and helping them grow.

And so we spend a lot of time and their staff breaks down some different things with rebounding and stuff.

But I do a ton of film and I just think it's a great tool to get better.

And I know, I don't know, maybe a lot of the coaches are a lot better than me, but I go back and watch the practice film and I'm like, man, I don't know where I was at practice half the time.

I pick up so much stuff.

So we deliver a lot of film.

But I think that YouTube uplift, it's super easy.

If anybody hasn't done it.

I never uploaded it YouTube until I went to Army.

It's super easy, it's super free, and our guys love it.

So that's what we use.

I like the idea of the access on their own time, right where they can pull it up at 10pm before they're going to bed or they're done studying or whatever, they got a break in between classes.

They can pull that stuff up and look at it again, as you said, on their own time.

And I think there are guys that clearly learn differently, right, in terms of watching that film.

And there's some guys who are going to spend a lot of time with it because they find it valuable.

And there's probably other guys that are breezing through it and maybe not getting as much out of it just because of again, the way that everybody has like a different learning style of, of how they go about doing it.

But to be able to have access to that and to have not only just the access to it, but I can only imagine getting the feedback from your head coach.

And it's to me, what I would think of this is the first thing that came to mind as you were saying this, Ben, is that what I'm getting every day is an insight into my head coach's mind of what is my head coach looking for?

What is my head coach want when my head coach praises my teammate for this?

Boy, not only am I looking at my performance, but I can learn something from that.

And I know that's one of the things that I've always tried to tell any player, my own kids or any player that is not playing for my team, even though it's.

It's a good message for your, for your own team.

But, but I've tried to tell people that I've worked with, like, if you really want to maximize your opportunity to get on the floor and have a bigger role, well, figure out what your head coach likes and figure out what your head coach wants and then try to do those things.

If your head coach loves offensive rebounding, well, guess what?

Maybe try to be a better offensive rebounder.

And I would think that your guys with all of that feedback from you directly, that they have a pretty good understanding very quickly of what is Coach Wilkins like and what does he doesn't.

What is it that he doesn't like?

And that to me as a player would be tremendously valuable feedback to be getting that all the time.

To be getting that every single day after practice.

I mean, wow, that's just.

Again, I can see how talking about growth and improving that seems like it's, it's a, it would be a huge thing from a player development standpoint.

Yeah, I would agree.

And Mike, if I don't mind jumping everyone on the.

You just actually made me connect two things.

I think it comes Back to the failure piece, because then I'm sending the film we're both seen together, and I say, hey, Mike, I want you to improve in this area.

Let's try to do this.

And so now when they do it, I'm not like, sometimes the assistant coaches might work, but the head coach doesn't know why that person's trying something, right?

So we're in this thing together.

And I think just one thing at Verbich is really important as a coach is I never say, hey, Mike, you have to do this.

I say, we gotta get you to do this.

We have to do this because we're a team.

And so everything I do is like, it's a.

We generated, right?

And so I want the guys to feel like because we're in this together, we're invested, you know, we're in this and the same thing.

Hey, guys, come to me and, hey, coach, what do you think about this?

And I see in the film a little bit different, and I tell them, I want you to come back at me and what are you seeing?

What are you thinking?

Like, you're on the floor.

Let's.

Let's do this thing together.

But you're right.

They know exactly what I want and what I view.

You talked about it a little bit, but I want you to expound on just the idea of the film is clearly helpful to your players and helping them to learn.

But you talked a little bit about yourself saying, hey, sometimes it feels like I wasn't.

What was I doing there at practice?

And how much have.

How much are you learning through that process when you're going through that each day in terms of trying to refine your teaching points, trying to refine your demeanor, trying to refine something as simple as, like, hey, where am I standing?

And how am I communicating?

What's my eye contact?

How have.

How is all that film work and going through and putting that YouTube stuff together?

How much does that help?

Forget about your players.

How much has that helped you to become a better coach?

And in what ways?

A ton.

A ton, Mike.

I think, first of all, you get more reps, right?

And so now all of a sudden, when I'm watching it and I'm watching this clip four or five times, and I'm rewinding, like, I now know what I should be looking for a little bit more closely next day on the practice floor, right?

And so now I've seen that same play, and I've seen these tendencies.

And it's like anything, if you get more reps at it, you're going to get better at it.

And so now all of a sudden, you know, you just, you're seeing more basketball, you're seeing more five guys like, you just.

You're going to process information better.

It doesn't matter who you are.

I think that's a huge piece of it.

And then, and then I'm.

And then I'm also, like, I'm learning too.

Like, I, I was very lucky, Mike.

I worked for Herb Sendak as a student manager at NC State.

There was a video coordinator there, and Herb was big.

He's from Patino Tree, all film, right?

You learn from, like your first guy.

And I learned so much from Herb.

And I remember being in there, man, when I was a video guy and, you know, Archie Miller's in there, Mark Phelps was head coach at Drake, was in there.

And, you know, other.

Other great guys, like John Gross was just in Illinois.

He was on staff.

Sean Miller, like, Herb had them all, right?

And so when you're in there and you listen and Herb would be like, hey, what should he do here?

Why do you think that?

What are we going to go here?

Let's spend five minutes on one play.

And, and.

But it wasn't being jerks.

It was.

They were trying to learn the game and learn the decision making to help the players, right?

And so, like, I learned of, like, how much those guys were growing as coaches, watching the film that way.

And, you know, and you hear Sean McVeigh talk about that with the Rams, how he'll watch it play four or five times.

And so I just saw that and asking those questions, why did he do that?

What should he done differently?

Where should his eyes be?

Asking yourself questions so you can teach better, right?

And so sometimes if I can't answer the question clicking really slow, how the heck is someone supposed to answer that question full speed in the course of a game, you know, and, and.

But part of it is, like, sometimes a lot of the eyes.

Where.

Where are the eyes at?

And then what am I telling him?

Why should he do something different?

So those are the questions.

I think I asked myself more questions than anything.

My wife probably thinks I'm crazy.

Watch film because I talk to myself the whole time.

But I learned a lot, you know, I couldn't do.

I could, you know, I just.

It's just a big piece.

And again, you learn from, you know, I learned from Herb Sinek.

That's what he did.

We watch film all the time at NC State.

And, you know, and that asking questions, I tell everybody film, ask questions.

And watch them.

Watch each clip multiple times.

All right, let's go backwards to NC State and tell me a little bit about how and why you get into coaching.

Did you know from the time that you were younger that you wanted to be a coach in some capacity because of the influence of the guys that you talked about earlier?

Was that something that you always dreamed about or was it you got to school and an opportunity presented itself and you say, hey, this is.

Let me try this.

Where was your mentality as you went to school in terms of what you were thinking about career wise?

And was coaching something that had always been on your radar?

Yeah, you know, as everybody, you know, I thought I was gonna be a pro athlete, Mike.

And then I realized pretty quickly that that was no chance of that happening.

So then, you know, my dad has always told me, hey, Ben, you love sports, you should do something in sports.

My dad's a big dreamer and I'm lucky to have a father that has instilled a lot of positivity in me and going forward in life.

And so I still thought I wanted to coach football even though I was playing basketball and quit playing football.

But my high school coach again, he came to me one day and said, Ben, what do you want to do?

And I said, I want to coach.

I want to coach football.

And he looked at me and said, ben, you're not mean enough to coach football.

I think you should coach basketball.

It's a better fit for you.

And he changed my life forever, Mike.

And I just trusted him.

I listened to him, I said, okay, I'll coach basketball.

And he said, I know a couple coaches.

He called Gene Katie at Purdue, called Skip Prowser at the time was Xavier.

And he knew Herb Sendak, all Pittsburgh guys are relations at Pittsburgh and said, hey, I got a guy wants to coach great human being.

He'll be a student manager.

And coach Sendak knew my coach and took me without knowing me and said, hey, I'll be a student manager.

Back in the day there was five student managers.

It was hard to get a student see staff 30.

I don't know what they do.

There's 30 student managers.

And so I knew was the ACC.

I like the cold, I like the warm weather.

And never visited NC State.

Said it's what I want to do.

I said I'm going to NC State and best decision, one of the best decisions I've ever made.

And that's how I got there.

But trusted my head coach.

And then, you know, leap of faith.

I'm not a, you Know if I want to do something, it's, I'm just going to trust and go for it.

When you first walked in there and you get behind the curtain of a college program, how much of it was shocking, surprising in terms of man, I had no idea that this was going on.

When you thought, hey, maybe I want to get into coaching, but then you're looking around going, is this really what coaching is?

What were some of the things that surprised you?

Yeah, and you made me laugh, Mike.

I haven't seen this forever, you know, and it's great because when you get old, you forget.

And I remember being 18 year old manager, walking the office, I had my hat on backwards, I'm like a flip flops, you don't know what's going on.

And I got yelled at pretty quickly.

I get the hat off, wear some shoes and like, and now I see freshmen and you kind of give them the same license lessons and that was one of the first ones.

But I, you know, I thought I knew about basketball, right Mike?

And then I realized I had no idea about basketball, right?

You get there and you see Sean Miller and Herb Sinek run a practice and you're like, oh my goodness, like I don't know what I was, you know, I don't know anything about it.

But you, but you learn it's still about people even at those levels.

And you talk about the confidence sometimes talking to the players like even though in ACC and, and great players like struggling with confidence and belief and you know, you realize that the basketball X's and O's is important.

But we're coaching people that play basketball and we got to coach that person before the, before the, before the scheme and, but it was fun, you know, it was fun to be, be, be around a program at that level.

And what I would say is I'm lucky to be at levels a lot of different levels and if you love what you're doing the level, it's cool, but it's, it's not the, it's not that it's not as big as some people think in tv, you know, getting to do what you want to do is a passion is, is the best.

But it was a good, it was, it was awesome.

It was great to see it.

And you know, and I was always respectful of the coaches that treated his greatest managers and all of them did.

But Sean Miller was the best.

And you know, I'll stick up for Sean Miller any day.

He was an unbelievable person and always great to us managers and you know, watching him, watching him coach.

You know, I said, man, one day I want to coach with him with a passion, excitement.

And his guys always, always, you know, they, they.

Sean Miller.

Was there any thought at any point that once you got into it that you weren't going to go into coaching or was it just coaching?

This is what I want to do.

It's clear that these are the guys that I want to be around for the rest of my life.

In terms of the coaching profession, was it clear that that was the direction you were going to go?

Yeah, I wanted to coach.

Yeah, I wanted the coach.

You know, it was in that direction.

I was going to stay with it.

You know, I, I loved it.

And again, being naive, right, Mike, I thought I was, you know, my first job was going to be like an ACC assistant.

Again, you know, you're 20 years old and, and people don't understand pre Internet.

Like you don't like pre Internet, Mike.

We're old.

Like people don't understand like you, you didn't have the information, your fingertips and.

But I always knew I wanted to coach and, you know, it wasn't going to change at all.

You know, I was ready to coach and so I was excited to get out of there, just to get a chance to actually get to do what I've always wanted to do.

So tell me about the first job search when you graduate.

What's that look like?

Obviously, you've got some guys that have great connections that you built relationships with.

And as we all know in the coaching business, the relationships are huge in terms of being able to help you to get your first job or get your next job or whatever it may be.

But just talk about that first job search after you graduated.

Yeah, I remember going to the coaches and just, you know, they're willing to help any way they could.

You know, trying to get, get a foot in the door and, you know, really wasn't getting much traction.

And you know, one of my buddies, Mike Odom, who's a deputy at Creighton now, his, his girlfriend at the time, wrote a letter to all the teach, all the.

In Wake county, all the schools that try to get a high school teaching job.

So I said, why don't I do this for coaching?

And so what I did, Mike, on the east coast, every Division one, Division two, Division three, I wrote a handwritten, typed up letter, but I personalize it a little bit, you know, send it out with postcards.

You know, again, people don't understand like back, not postcards, stamps, and just send it out to east coast and you know, at the time, I got an interview with W and J up here, thought I was gonna get the job.

They had one.

They were like, one in 30.

And I'll never forget, like, two weeks later, I come back, Herb Sinek's in the office.

He's reading a paper again.

You don't have Internet.

He reads a paper and goes, ben, sorry to hear about W and J.

And I'm like, you know, play it off like, yeah, whatever.

He's like, yeah, I can't believe he got fired and the coach got fired.

I had no idea, Mike.

And I'm like, man, so much.

I thought I was going to get that job.

And.

And so I couldn't get anything.

I had no traction.

So I did the same thing.

I wrote every school in Wake county because I was a teacher as well.

And luckily, I did that because there was a job at Apex High School that wasn't posted yet.

They needed to get, like, five more students in, and they were going to have a half guidance counselor, half history teacher.

They needed a JV boys basketball coach.

And because I wrote that letter, you know, they just.

They offered me the job.

And my first job was as a high school teacher, and, you know, got a chance to be a JV coach for.

David Neal was a great, great coach at Apex his first year there, which is cool.

And I got to be a JV head coach, you know, which was pretty cool.

And I take that back.

The story's run a little bit.

I was supposed to be an assistant coach, and then I went to every open gym, and David Coach Neal got to know me really well.

He didn't know the JV coach.

The guy was coaching football, too.

He said, ben, you want to be the JV coach?

I was like, great.

So I got to be the JV coach.

Mike Ed coach right away, you know, 23, 24 years old.

It was.

It was awesome.

And got a chance to.

To teach.

Your first opportunity as a head coach of a JV team.

You walk into the gym for your first practice, and you're looking at 12 to 15 kids looking back at you.

Okay, coach, what do you got for me?

What are you going to do?

What was that very first practice like for you?

If you can remember back standing in front of those kids for the first time, then I'll tell you what my experience was.

Like, yeah, you know, I. I think I just.

I just felt alive, Mike.

I felt like I was where I was supposed to be.

I had some good kids, and, you know, I think I was always confident you know, you know, naive to be that confident that age.

Right, Mike.

But I was.

And so my experience was, was really good.

And, you know, I just, I felt like I was right where I'm supposed to be.

And it just felt so good to just, to be in that position.

It just, it just felt amazing.

I remember being super excited and going in to practice.

And I always say that one of the things that I regret, that I wish I had done differently is growing up and as a player, I had played for the same high school coach for my entire high school career, and I played for the same college coach my entire college career.

And I always thought I'm a good player, so that's going to make me a good coach, which we all obviously know is far, far from the truth.

And so the only thing I knew in terms of drills, in terms of philosophy, in terms of the way to do things was what my coaches did with me.

And so I remember I set up the first drill, which was a drill that we had done with my college team, and did the drill for like five minutes.

It was just like a rebound and outlet run the lane and then get a variety of different shots off, you know, like a two, basically a two on zero situation.

And I watched the drill for five minutes, Ben.

And I just remember in my head, this is my most vivid memory, I think probably of that whole season was just going.

There was like 500 mistakes in that first five minutes of this, like unbelievably simple drill.

Like what, how, how am I going to do this?

Like, I don't even understand how I can even begin to fix or correct or do whatever with these guys.

And of course, obviously you learn that you can't fix everything in the moment and you have to pick and choose what is going to be important to you and all those kinds of things.

But I mean, it was.

I just remember that first day just being excited, just like you, but also after the first 10 minutes, feeling like I'm overwhelmed, that I really got to try to figure this coaching thing out because being a player did not prepare me in any way, shape or form for being, for being a coach.

And, and you learn very quickly.

And I, and I wish looking back at my career now, after having done this podcast for seven years and talked to so many coaches, I realized that the way that I approach things early on in my career, I could have been so much better had I taken more time to invest in myself as a coach and just didn't let my ego get in the way of again, I was a good player.

And I thought that was going to make me a good coach.

And my own experience, nothing, nothing could have been further from the truth.

And as I went along, I learned that in my career, but I.

But I didn't learn it probably early enough.

Just like you, I thought I knew a lot more than I did at age 23, than what I.

Than what I actually knew in terms of.

In terms of being a.

Being a good coach.

So how important, when you look at the totality of your career, how important were those head coaching reps that year as a JV coach?

Because once you get into college and you're an assistant, you forget that you don't get those same reps in terms of.

Especially the game piece of it, of under the subbing and just making decisions on the fly.

So when you look back on that, that time as a JV coach, how important were those reps for you as you move forward in your career?

Yeah, I think, Mike, I think the biggest thing for me is, you know, I've been really lucky in life and for whatever reason, universe, God, whatever you believe in, gave me an unbelievable team.

So we were 17 and one Mike, and it wasn't because of me.

I mean, we were just so much more talented than kids we.

We were playing against.

And so, like, I think it actually gave me some confidence that I could do the job, but I also could stay calm and be positive and have good relationships with the guys.

And so, like, I think it gave me some just confidence if I had success year one, that, like, this is the right path for me.

You know, you asked that question, like, were you still going to coach?

And I think it just gave me the.

Almost the go ahead and say, this is what you should be doing.

And I think that's way more than the reps of being a head coach.

It was just because if it's you, you know, if you're the head coach, at the end of the day, like, you make all those decisions and there's a little bit more responsibility there.

That is assistant.

So I think it just gave me some confidence and belief that, okay, this is the right path, this is where I should be.

Was there any thought after that experience of just continuing on that path of being a high school teacher and coach, or did you have your mind set always on college basketball or where were you in your thinking in terms of a career path at that point?

Yeah, no, I still, you know, I still wanted to be a college coach, but I knew that I could be a high school teacher and A coach the rest of my life and be super happy.

It's so rewarding.

It's such an important job.

There is.

I mean, it is.

To be able to influence young people in this world is so important.

And so I was super happy.

But I still was driven to be a college coach.

And you know, what happened is, you know, I talked about those letters I read up east on the coast.

I must have done such a good job on a lever.

A letter named a guy named Ron Levens.

He was head coach at Barton, kept my letter and a year later, it was like three days into the practice season.

He didn't have an assistant coach.

And Wilson was 40 minutes down the road and he called me and said, hey, I got a job now.

It pays all of $6,000, no benefits, no housing.

You know, do you want to be a college coach?

And you know, so that letter again, that got me my first job and it got me a second job.

And you know, I tell people that you got it, you got to put yourself out there, universe, and you got to try, you got to try to get lucky.

And so I still wanted to do that.

And I didn't think year two, you know, I was going to get in it, Mike, Greg, I thought, you know, and then all of a sudden out of nowhere I get this call and you know, got to, got to work for another incredible human being and great coach.

And Ron leaving.

See a Barton College.

Was it hard to give up the full time salary at all?

Did you bat an eye at all about the money or was just, hey, I know that when I get into college coaching, you had been around it enough to know that to get your start, you kind of got to take the jobs that are offered to you to get your foot in the door and then do the best job that you possibly can.

And that's kind of how you move up.

What was the thought process there in terms of just the, the, the salary piece of it and trying to, trying to make ends meet on $6,000 a year?

Yeah, I think two things is in full, Mike.

I was worried about.

I was a teacher, right?

And I didn't want to leave my kids in the middle of a class season the year.

And I didn't want to leave the basketball team, right?

And so there was a lady named Michelle Patelli who was in the guidance counselor department that I was working with along with teaching.

And she brought me in and said, Ben, this is whatever you want to do, there will always be another class you have to go.

And so like that was Kind of nice to someone again, give me some permission that, like, there's going to be other people, right?

The kids will be fine.

And then my father, uh, he said, ben, it'll be the biggest regret in your life if you don't go for this.

He's like, this is what you wanted your whole life.

Like, there's always money.

You can always go back being a teacher.

Um, and so, you know, I think that was a good piece and it was cool too.

You know, our principal at the time brought me in and said, ben, this is the biggest mistake of your life.

You're going to be begging for a teacher job again.

You're going to be tired of chasing 18 and 22 kids, you know, around.

And I didn't say a word.

I just thought to myself, you don't know who you're talking to.

Not in arrogant ways, like, I'm going to make this happen.

And so it was just cool how different people could just have different perspectives.

And, you know, I think there's too many people in this world to tell you not what not to do, but, man, chase our dreams.

We have one of them.

And so, you know, I was fortunate to.

My father gave me that advice.

And Michelle Patelli as well, a college coach.

What's one area that you feel like you had to grow in when you first got the job?

What was an area that you improved the most over the first couple years of your college coaching career?

So maybe you came in and it was an area that I don't want.

Weakness may be too strong, but just what's an area where you feel like you grew?

I think, I think the biggest area.

I had no idea how to recruit Mike.

Like, I had no idea, man, I remember my first phone call being nervous as can be picking up the phone, trying to figure that aspect out.

That's, you know, that.

That was by far the biggest area for me.

And I don't know why.

And I think so as I just.

I just, as a coach, tried to, like, eminellate some of the best.

Like, I was around great coaches, right, Mike?

And I think so.

I was just so lucky as a coach sometimes just, I kind of just was trying to.

And not, not just I was still Ben Wilkins, but I had learned from some great people.

And for whatever reason, I just have a little bit of belief in myself.

And so like the coaching piece on the court.

And I worked for Ron La.

He let me coach.

And I think I was so lucky, you know, And I saw Herb Sindek, those assistants coach, and, you know, Here, some places, like, you know, where the only.

The head coach talks.

And so I, I came in and I coached and, and Coach Levens, he let me.

And again, I believe that I was John Wooden.

Mike.

Right.

And again, not arrogant, but I just, I believed in myself and, but I also would, you know, I think there's a.

There's two things that I think I'm good at, Mike, is I'm going to have confidence in front of people and, and I'm going to.

I'm going to.

I'm going to.

I'm going to do everything I can do to get us better.

But then when that door closes, there's a little bit imposter syndrome of like, okay, Ben, you don't really know what you're talking about.

We have to figure this out.

And so spending some time learning to grow into reflecting, to asking questions, I think there's two parts and I think as a leader, you have to balance those things of, of having that confidence, but also being very humble of what you know and don't know and willing to learn.

And so, like, that's one thing that I pride myself in, is I'm a learner and I'm okay looking like an idiot and trying to figure things out and I want to get to the answer at some point.

So, you know, I think that's the biggest thing for me was recruiting and.

But the on the floor stuff was it wasn't as big of adjustment as I actually thought.

The game was a lot faster, but.

But the adjustment wasn't nearly as big as I thought it would be.

I think that imposter syndrome, slash confidence thing is really informative when you think about coaching, because I know that there have been times where I've gone into most practices right, where I'm prepared.

I know exactly what I'm going to teach.

I know exactly how I want to teach it.

I know exactly what I'm going to be doing.

And when I'm in that particular mindset, I'm a much, much better coach.

I've also been in positions where I've helped to coach one of my kids, AAU teams, and maybe I'm just like the third assistant.

And so I may be not as well versed in the four or five or six or whatever out of bounds plays or this piece of offense.

And I'm coming in there, I'm standing in practice and I'm watching, going, gotta hope the kids don't ask me a question because I'm not so sure I know what I'm supposed To be teaching here in terms of this, in terms of this play.

And it speaks to.

Right.

Again, what gives you confidence is that preparation.

And just from our conversation so far and the amount of time, right.

That you're putting in, watching film and understanding and knowing your guys and what it is that they do, and obviously that translates to what you're trying to teach offensively and defensively and all those things.

So when you walk on the practice floor, you know exactly what you want to teach.

Now maybe it doesn't work sometimes, right?

Maybe sometimes there's like, hey, I need to approach it differently.

But in the moment, what you're trying to do and what you're trying to accomplish, you're confident in that.

And I think that the best coaches.

It speaks to preparation, right?

I think confidence comes from preparation.

If you're confident and you're not prepared, well, that's a whole nother.

That's, That's a whole nother problem right there.

But you can.

But if you're, if you're prepared, then you're coming in the door confident.

And then I love what you said about, hey, even when I'm confident and I'm putting that out on the practice floor at game day or whatever, I still have to go back and have to reflect and be self aware that even though this is the way I wanted to do it, I did it exactly the way I thought.

But, man, maybe there's something I could do a little bit differently.

And that goes back to our earlier conversation about the film and all that.

So I think you make a really good point there.

It's just, it's.

There's a balance, right?

There's.

There's a balance.

You have to be supremely confident on the one end through your preparation and yet not be so overconfident that you're like no longer willing to learn or look at yourself self.

Be self aware and be critical and try to figure out how can I improve and, and get better.

I think that's a really hard balance sometimes to strike because it's easy to get.

It's easy to get overconfident if you're like, hey, this is what you know.

I know.

I don't.

I know exactly what I'm doing this.

And I put all this time in.

And you don't listen to your players or you don't listen to your assistant coaches or you don't watch.

You just don't see some of the things.

These are sometimes to miss that, you know, the proverbial.

You miss the forest for the trees.

Tell me about the opportunity after you're at Barton.

You next get the opportunity to go and, and work at William and Mary.

Tell me how that opportunity comes across your desk and what it's like moving from your first job at the college level to your second one.

Yeah, actually one year at NC State in between.

Mike.

And that happened with, luckily I was working.

Okay.

That's okay.

I was working at team camp and it was disaster.

Right?

And Larry, at the time, Larry Hunter, moved on to Western Carolina and they, they did, and it was a disaster.

And I was there.

And as a manager, you do everything right, Mike.

And so our video guy was like, hey, let's hire Ben for the new spot.

He can fix camp, he could do stuff.

He's here.

Herb said again, this wouldn't happen today.

Herb calls me and says, hey, Ben, you want, you know, you know, want to be the video coordinator at NC State?

And I was like, great.

And so I go there for one year and, and then Herb takes the Arizona State job at that time.

Right, Mike?

And again, this is nothing wrong with coaches.

Awesome.

You basically have 48 hours.

Do you want to go to Arizona State or do you want to stay in the East Coast?

You know, that's how this business works.

And, and at the time, Lee Faure, the AD said, hey, Ben, we need somebody to go to class and stuff like that.

If you want to stay, I'll promise you a job for a year and just make sure, you know, people don't get in trouble, basically.

And so I stayed.

I decided to stay and just thought east coast connections was a better chance for me to move up.

And guy named Pete Strickland came in as assistant with Sydney Low staff.

I got to know Pete really well.

And a month later, assistant job at William Mary came up and I said, pete, do you know Tony Shaver?

And he says, yeah, actually, you know, I actually recommended a guy to get a job for him earlier and so he called Coach Saver for me and just, I'm lucky, you know, I'm just a lucky guy.

My good connections and, and coach was looking to go more two guard style.

And Herb had played to Princeton at NC State and you know, it was the lowest paid spot in the ca, so that helped me too.

And you know, Coach, I got a chance to go to William Mary and be a full time assistant at Division one in the caa.

You know, at the time, the youngest CA assistant.

And that's when the CA was the ca.

You know, you had George Mason, vcu, Old Dominion, I mean it was a monster lake and it was an unbelievable experience.

And you know, Coach Saver, another guy, he knew one thing.

Coach has a, he's a two time hall of Famer guy.

William Mary and Hampton Sydney and he's an unbelievable person and he knows what he doesn't know.

And he played a different style at Hampton Sydney and he was trying to do it at William Mary.

Wasn't working.

And he was well aware enough to say, hey, this isn't going to work.

I need to, I need to hire some people to help me and I'm going to let them, even though I'm, you know, at the time probably 45, 46 years old, I'm going to let them figure it out.

And I learned so much from him.

And then he does the leadership stuff, the culture, you know, all that stuff he does.

Unbelievable.

So like I'm not trying to but like coaches ability.

How many coaches do that?

There's so many egos in this business and, and that's why you know, coach is the best coach in William Mary history.

She'll be the coach at William Mary.

Just was in the hall of Fame.

We went to the hall of Fame a month ago with my wife and so great opportunity to be at William Mary and spend six unbelievable years in Williamsburg.

Talk a little about delegating because that's what you're just talking about there with Coach Shaver, that he had the ability to, to delegate, not let his ego get in the way and give some parts of the program to his assistant coaches.

And I know from talking to lots of people, both in my own personal life, but also here on the podcast, that especially when you're a young coach or a first time head coach, that that's difficult.

Right.

Because you kind of want to have your hands and everything because ultimately it's your name that is on the program.

The one loss record gets attached to the head coach, doesn't get attached to the assistant coaches who are running the offense or in charge of out of bounds or whatever special situations.

So how have you handled that delegation piece as a head coach and how do you think about a.

Giving your assistant coaches responsibility and then be helping them to prepare ultimately for their opportunity to maybe run their own program someday?

Yeah, you know, I think it's one of those things, Mike.

It's, it's, it's, it's been a little harder than me, than I would think to be able to delegate.

I'll be honest.

The first time head coach I've got, Jamal Stokes, has been our Assistant coach here with us.

This is year four, our fourth year.

He's been tremendous with us, super loyal, great relationship builder.

He's been our defensive coordinator for four years.

So he's really done a good job on that side of the ball.

I like the coordinator idea to give people's more specific areas.

Kind of what you're saying about as an AU assistant in the third time, you're not going to have the answers to everything as assistant sometimes.

So I think if you can, if you can give them a smaller area and say own this area or at least be an expert in this area, it helps them and also helps them if someone goes to coach Stokes and asks an offensive question, he just say, hey, go to the offensive coordinator and that's okay.

Like it's almost given permission and everybody knows.

So I try to go offense defensive coordinators, which has been really good.

And we had.

Connor Leverty was our, we have a grad assistant as well, unfortunately.

Connor was a great, great coach.

Great, unbelievable young man.

He passed away from a rare disease in our second year.

You know, he's.

He's 24 years old and you know, the most tragic of tragic.

And so, you know, we want one year with one assistant.

It was me and Jamal and we lost assistant during the year.

So that was a very challenging time for everybody to, to handle.

And then this year it's interesting this year we actually, I have two ex players now that we're with Seton Hill.

One's volunteering with us and once a GA and the GA is we got two guys on the defensive side and the other volunteer who just was a great player for us, he's going to be offensive coordinator year one.

And what I like now, Mike, is they kind of.

It's easier to delegate now in year four because they know how I want to do things now.

They know.

Right.

And some of it is I didn't know exactly what I want to do either, Mike.

Right.

So it's hard to delegate sometimes when you're still as a first time head coach trying to figure things out.

They'd be like, how can I delegate?

I got.

I got to figure out what's between my own brain, my own ears.

So.

But now it's easy.

Like Ryan Mice knows our offense as well as I do and I'm stepped back a lot more this year than I have and try to go more big picture and trust those guys and it's been really good and I got an unbelievable staff.

And then we added Kristen Wanda, who's a volunteer as well.

Who I coached his brother at Mount St. Mary, so.

But those two ex players have been great because they give me a different perspective, too.

They know what it's like to be coached by me.

Right.

And they know what it was like year one at Seton Hill, and then Coach Stokes came in, Jamal came in with me.

And so, like, I'm lucky to have those guys, but I try to delegate as much as I can, and, you know, it's an area that I think I've taken a step this year, so I can, you know, you can only do so many things as a head coach, and entrusting them and empowering them is important.

What's the one thing you.

You don't want to give up?

What's your favorite part of being a head coach?

Something that you're like, I. I'll never delegate this piece of what it means to be a great head coach.

Yeah, I think, I think the two things you can't ever delegate is relationships and culture, Mike.

You know, it's about the people and, you know, the relationships.

You talked earlier like, you got to have relationship with your players as a head coach, and the culture's got to come from you.

I think the film will be hard for me to delegate one day, but I'll tell you, as I get older, Mike, and I think if I had, you know, if Ryan Mice, the guy who's a player for us now, is here for two or three years, he might just take the offensive film and I might spend more time with the guys.

And I think, I think I could delegate almost anything at this point, but not the.

Not the relationship and the players and the culture.

Those are the two things that I'll never give up.

Tell me about the relationship building side of it.

What does that look like day to day in terms of on the practice floor outside of basketball?

How are you building those relationships?

Is it more of an informal process for you?

Are you thinking about, hey, formally, I want to meet with these guys once a week.

I try to schedule a lunch with each player every two weeks.

Are you scheduling things or are you more.

Hey, just.

Obviously there's probably a little bit of both in terms of the informal.

But just how do you go about making sure that you're building those relationships and investing in your guys, not just as basketball players, but as human beings and as students?

Yeah, I think it's both.

Like you said, Mike, I think the beginning of the year, middle of the year, end of the year, formal meetings, and I love walking meetings, so I walk.

So I think it's really important.

Steve Jobs talk about walking.

I think especially, especially this day and age.

These kids are so used to using their phones and staring down and not having eye contact.

So if you can walk, there's something of you're going shoulder to shoulder and you're looking ahead that you're going to get more honest answers from them and they're not as intimidated as sitting in a room.

So I love walking meetings and I like a lot of open ended questions and I.

Shut up, Mike.

You know, I feel bad for people.

They're going to listen if they listen to this podcast, they got to listen to me talk for an hour and a half.

But I like to listen to our guys and I like to ask open ended questions and then ask follow up questions and then I think each just like a great podcast host and I've listened to a lot of your podcasts and I can tell each one goes a different way.

And that's what you have to do as a coach.

You can't just have cookie cutter questions and ask everybody the same questions.

You're not going to have a genuine response or relationship or conversation.

So I go in with one or two open ended questions and I just see how this conversation is going to go.

And so I do that formally a couple times a year.

And then, and then in a year it's, it's, it's.

I believe that you need to do two things as a head coach every day.

You need to think and you need to observe.

You need to think and you need to observe.

So I like to, beginning of practice, observe our guys who's walking a little bit different, maybe who's handling something different on the sidelines and you know, just say, hey, you don't, you're doing okay today.

And then, and they're always going to say I'm doing good, coach.

And then be like, hey Mike, how you really doing?

And then that second follow up is so powerful, Mike, because then they're going to give you the truth and then, and then finding out ways that like if I see somebody struggle or something trying to get confidence in, you know, and I don't want to take credit for this, but I think it's important that we give confidence.

So we had a kid the other day rig shooter for us.

He's probably three or four days in a row where he just hasn't made shots like he's capable, right Mike?

And I just look at him before price, hey, this is a day trade.

You're about to hit six or seven man, like You're.

You're so close.

All your misses are good, like it's the day.

And then he hit six or seven.

So, you know, I think that's something that, you know, it's really important that, you know, you continue to instill the confidence in those guys.

But you got.

You got to find out in that observed observation of where they're at.

And sometimes the little interactions, the three or four minutes go a long, long way.

And so you just have to organically want to get to know the guys, spend time around them.

And if you can pop in, you know, I think sometimes that lunch is great intentionally, but I think sometimes if you can just pop in at the lunch table and just sit there and BS with those guys, five minutes without having a conversation and leave, I think sometimes that's.

That's a great way to build it as well.

So you have two more experiences before you get to the head job at seton Hill and Mount St. Mary's and then obviously at Army West Point, which is a completely different type of environment than what you see at most colleges.

So give me one thing that you learned from Mount St. Mary's and then let's talk a little bit more in depth about just the experience at army and how unique that was.

Yeah, I think the biggest thing I learned at Mount St. Mary's is Jamie and Christian.

We kind of took over a situation that was a little toxic when we took over.

And so finding a way, Year one, coming into a different situation and how to rebuild a program.

You know, we went to an NCAA tournament.

And so just seeing that piece of.

Of Year one, I think that was this first time I've ever been in Year one, and so that really, really prepared me for Seton Hill.

So I was lucky to go through that with Jamie and.

And have some success there.

And, you know, again, you know, how I got to West Point, I think you got to put yourself out there.

And there was at the time, Sack Spiker was the head coach in army, and they do a coaching clinic, and they bring.

They bring.

They're smart to bring guest speakers in and topics they want to talk about.

And we pressed at Mount St. Mary's and they.

They brought me up there to speak about pressing.

And, you know, I was nervous as can be.

No one wants to talk about your subject in front of your peers.

And.

But I was like, you know what?

I got to grow.

I got to get out.

So my comfort zone and went up there and Jimmy Allen at the time was associate head coach.

And like, my presentation, me and Jimmy loosely stayed in contact.

And even before when Spiker got the Drexel job, Jimmy called me and said, hey, if I get this job, you know, I want you to come, you know, and, and, and help us build the program.

And so I was, you know, got an unbelievable opportunity to go to Army West Point to, to, to be there for six years.

And I'll talk about that place all day, Mike.

And, and the young men that, that represent our country are the most special of special.

And I thought West Point was going to be a cool experience, Mike.

And it was about 10 times better than I thought it could be.

And I'm just, I'm just so lucky that I got time to be there in that environment around those people.

And, and then the cool thing is some of my best friends are on my, we're on staff together there.

You have a bigger staff there for the furlough for Patriot League.

And it was so much fun.

I loved it there.

I'll answer any question.

Anything you want to know about West Point, Mike.

I would love to talk about it.

All right, so let's start with just the mentality of the players that you recruit and that are a part of the program.

I've had the opportunity just through a friend that I know who put on some, some conferences and as part of those conferences, I had an opportunity to go to the Naval Academy and get a tour and also go to the Air Force Academy and get a tour and be walking around that campus while the students are doing their thing.

And what I'm always struck by in both of those instances was, man, it takes a special kind of 18 year old kid to make a decision to go to this environment with the discipline and just the daily regimen and all the things that go with being at an academy, as opposed to just rolling into a normal school and being an athlete for a basketball program or just being a regular student.

And so tell me a little bit about just the mentality of the players that you were able to coach and how that impacted what it was like day to day, interacting with them outside of practice, in practice.

What was it like to interact with the kids who make the decision to go to a place like West Point?

Yeah, I was always in awe of those guys, Mike, because I couldn't have done what they did, not at 18, 22 years old.

I wasn't mature enough, I wasn't tough enough, I wasn't mentally strong enough.

So I was always in awe of what they, what they could do.

And I think it starts in recruiting process, Mike.

You know, the reality is none of those guys thought they were going to be at an academy, right?

And so you call the, you call them the first time, and they just wanted to play Division 1 basketball.

But what they all had in common, Mike, is they wanted to be successful in life.

They wanted to be, they are high character and they're driven.

And so once you, once you start to educate them and say, hey, West Point can give you everything you want, but you have to join the army.

And then they're willing to take that leap of faith and say, hey, I want to be really successful, I want to be challenged, I want to become the best version myself.

I'm willing to do what it takes.

And so you just, you get the chance to have young men with the mindset of they are relentless, right?

And they're going to do whatever it takes to be successful.

And it was hard.

And so I think the cool thing is you could have such high level conversations with them because they were just so driven and they were about the team, they were about doing things the right way.

And so that mindset was such an advantage for us.

And you get to coach the most special kids in the world.

And it was just, it was just so cool, Mike.

But, you know, and what I'd say too is like, Luke Morrison, it was a good, was a player for us.

And he told me, I love my interview, my exit interviews with those guys are like five hours long, Mike.

I love that.

Sit down in the library for five hours, just talk about their experience.

Was the best time of my life.

And, and Luke was saying, he said, the thing about West Point is every one of us wanted to leave at one point, at one point, everybody wanted to quit, right?

And the guys that quit, about 75% of them, it's the biggest regret in their life that they didn't stay with.

And he said, you know, and he said, the guys that stayed for four years, not one person regretted.

And it all, they all realized what a better person they were because they went through the journey at four years and because that place challenges you in every way.

And I think in life when you get challenged and you're willing to keep fighting, you grow.

And you know, unfortunately, we all are in a society where everything is so easy today that, you know, we, we, we don't put ourselves in enough environment that challenges us so we don't grow enough.

And those guys are willing to challenge themselves and grow.

And you know, we had a kid, Josh Caldwell, two time defensive player of the year, Mike, he almost fell out of west out of West Point because he couldn't pass Strava swimming.

He came in, he didn't know how to swim.

And, and if you see a kid at 6am that didn't know how to swim, that has full fatigues on, he's got the lights are blaring on and off, horns going off wave pool, he's going down a slide backwards with machine gun in his head.

And you're watching this saying this kid's going to drown and he's willing to go there for an hour at 6am and pass survival swimming.

And who does that?

Right?

You know, and that kid, that kid is, is, and I say kid now, you know, is a coach.

Sometimes you say kid.

You know, Josh is a, as a man now.

And so that's just one story of like Josh was willing to do that and he didn't, he didn't come in, he couldn't swim.

He was two time defensive player.

You're in a Patriot League and I love the kid to death.

How does that environment impact you as a coaching staff in terms of scheduling, in terms of just running a program at West Point versus running a program at a quote unquote normal university, what did you see as being some of the differences, whether it's just in scheduling, in terms of approach, I don't know what differences stick out in your mind, but what's different about how you have to coach or what you have to do at West Point that maybe is different from a normal college environment?

Yeah, I, I think you get way less time with the guys.

And when they do, they're, they can be tired some days, you know, the fatigue levels just, it's real.

And so I think you have to be.

And Jimmy Allen was great at.

Jimmy Allen was at Navy for a long time.

His father went to West Point.

He's been around it.

So Jimmy really knew how to navigate Army West Point at a high level.

And so we would, we'd make sure that hey, if there's days that hey, we're going to go for an hour and it's only an hour and we're getting out of here or giving our guys a little bit more time off to make sure that they were fresh.

He understood that, he understood that especially that freshman year is called the plebe year.

He said that plebe year.

Sometimes freshmen in practice they look like could never dribble basketball in their life, Mike.

And instead of getting mad and yelling and screaming, he's like, oh, he's just having a plea day.

He just can't function today.

And Jimmy didn't get rattled with it.

And so you just had to know that they were dealing different, different obstacles than other people were.

And you didn't have them during the day to go get shots up.

You didn't have any of that opportunity.

And so you had to make the most of your time and be very efficient.

And I think it helps you as a coach is realize, hey, what do we really have to practice?

And what is this fluff that we don't need to practice?

And I think the advantages you gained is we didn't have to deal with anybody like, oh man, these guys aren't bought in or these guys are not hard working, or these guys are soft or, you know, stuff we hear coaches talk all the time.

We didn't deal with any of that, you know, and it was just.

And they were getting leadership training at the highest possible level in the world down the hill.

Down the hill is the academic area.

So, yes, we had our own leadership stuff.

Yes, we were developing our culture and our leadership, but they were also getting that same kind of treatment, the training down the hill.

And so, you know, you had guys that were getting elite team building at the highest possible level.

So you had some huge advantages with that.

And I also think the team chemistry, I really believe that people that struggle together become a lot closer.

And so like our guys go through basic training together, go through survival swimming, they go through their summers.

You know, that makes them really tough because they have those cool, hey, you, you're like me.

We went through that basic training together and our chemistry was unbelievable because of those suffering.

That's.

That West Point makes you go through that again, become, makes you become a better person, but also brings our team a lot closer together on the basketball court.

Did you find yourself becoming more disciplined in any way in your own personal life just by being in that environment?

Did it change the way you approach things in your life away from basketball?

Just being around that kind of culture and discipline and leadership on a daily basis.

Did it impact you off the court?

Oh, absolutely, Mike, absolutely.

I think, I think you're, you're, you're in, in an environment where everybody is just striving to be the best version of themselves.

And everywhere you go, it's just elite people everywhere.

And so you look around and you say, man, I can't get left behind.

And you realize, like, I got to raise my game, like I, I got to eat a little bit better, you know, I better work out a little bit, I better meditate, you know, I better journal.

Like, I, I gotta, I gotta try to figure some things out.

Like these are what the best of the best do.

And I got, I gotta raise my level to them.

And you know, the cool thing too is we had officer reps, which were officers at West Point.

Most of the professors at West Point are officers.

And you're actually on military orders when you go for a road game, right, Mike?

And so when you go, you have to have an officer travel with you.

And so we get to know these guys that are Army Rangers, that are Delta Force.

And what's cool is they're just the most normal guys that are total badasses, right?

But they're just the normal guys and you see them, how they operate and you say, okay, I gotta, I gotta raise, I gotta raise my gain.

And Absolutely.

That environment.

And I believe that with anybody, right?

If you're in a bad environment, it's going to sink you down.

And if you're.

I saw it firsthand.

It's the most elite environment by far I've ever been in.

It's West Point, right?

There's not many West Points, but it raises you up.

And everybody there is pushing themselves and it's just special.

It's really special.

Mike, our country is lucky to have the academies.

What's one of those habits that you built there that is still with you now that you, you feel like is indispensable in your life?

I'm going to give you the weirdest habit.

That's maybe not a West Point habit, but Jeff Monken is a football coach there, right?

Elite of the lead.

And two things.

Jeff Mung is every, every staff meeting was in the front row and taking notes and locked into every staff meeting.

And we all know it's all staff meetings.

Sometimes people don't pay attention.

You don't own the football coach at West Point.

And Jeff Monken would walk around campus and he.

Any trash, he picked up trash and threw it away.

And you just see Jeff Monken do that and say, why don't, why don't I do that, right?

And so, you know, that's something.

And you know, I actually talked to our guys about.

And the other day, it was cool.

Our all conference player, I saw him on campus and he was picking up something in trash and putting it away off the, off the ground and felt pretty proud.

And you know, I never thought about that.

Jeff Monkin, you know, how much you can walk by trash.

But that's just a little example.

But you see that and it's like that's what everybody there does.

Everybody there is just.

I know it's probably not the answer you're expecting, Mike, but, man, now I see trash, I pick it up and throw it away.

And I feel like it's my obligation to Seaton Hill on our campus, to, we got a beautiful campus.

Let's.

Let's throw the trash in the trash can where it belongs.

Little things make a difference, right?

And you can extend that to picking up trash when you see it.

And there's a million other examples we could give, right, of something small that in the moment.

If you walk by that paper cup and you don't throw it away to make that bit much of a difference in the moment.

Probably not.

But, man, if you do it and just imagine if everybody did all those little things, and then you multiply that by 10 other little habits that you picked up or 10 other little things that you try to grow, and all of a sudden, man, now you're making a real difference, not only in your own life, but in your lot, in the lives of the people that are around you and in your environment and in your city and on your campus, whatever it might be.

And I think that, you know, again, when you talk about being in an elite environment, it doesn't get more elite than West Point.

And I just don't know how you couldn't be in that place for as long as you were there and not come away with just so many things that you're like, I gotta.

I gotta.

I gotta do better at this.

I gotta.

I got.

I gotta be.

I gotta try to maximize the person that I can be.

Because, man, those people there, I just remember walking around those.

The academies, and just the way that, you know, you got to walk in this.

You know, you got to walk on the certain.

You know, the freshmen have to walk on this certain pathway at the.

You know, at the Naval Academy.

And just being like, man, at 18, like, who.

Who's choosing this?

As opposed to just, again, you had your baseball hat on backwards and your flip flops walking into the basketball office, and, oh, here these guys are in full, you know, full regalia walking through, and they're straight.

And, you know, just.

It's just I. I mean, both.

Both of those experiences at the two academies, and I was there for, you know, five hours at each one, and.

And it.

It impacted me in such a way of just, again, being.

Being proud of.

Of.

Of the people that make the choice to be there.

As Americans, like you said it, we should all be thankful that there are.

That there are Young people that, that want to go in that environment and want.

Want to be the types of leaders that this country, this country so desperately needs.

And man, it's just.

I don't know how you couldn't be affected by that.

So.

All right, let's.

Let's jump to your current job.

Why Seton Hill?

What attracted you to the job?

What made you think it was a good fit for you?

And what made you think that, hey, this is a place that I think we can win at.

I can be successful.

Yeah.

You know, Mike, I'll give you the honest answers.

I try to get a million head coaching jobs and I couldn't get any.

You know, they're really hard to get at any level.

And then when I looked at Seton Hill, you know, Seton Hill had a lot of alignment for things that.

How I wanted to run a program first.

You know, it's 25 minutes from where I grew up, so I know the area.

I love the area.

So for me to get a chance to come home was special.

Seton Hill is a very good academic school.

Spending time especially at William Mary and Army West Point.

I like to attract high, high character and very intelligent young men.

And, and you got to have a really good school to be able to.

Especially the intelligent piece.

Right.

There's, there's degrees that are different and we're a really good private school.

I love that.

We've never been to the NCAA tournament.

You know, I'm a. Mike, I'll give you a good trivia question.

I'm sure your fan.

You know, people know this, but since the start of the NCAA tournament, there's only three teams that have never been to the NCAA tournament.

And Citadel is one of them, William Mary is one of them, and West Point's one of them.

So I've spent 12 years of my life at two of them and we were darn close at both of those places going to the NCAA tournament.

And I want to be somewhere first.

Like, I'm a chip on the shoulder type guy.

I'm not a. I went to NC State.

I didn't go to Carolina.

Right.

Like, I like.

I like to be that underdog type guy.

And so I like, you know, Seaton Hill.

You know, we've only been co ed for 23 years now, but we've never been to the NCAA tournament.

We played an unbelievable Division 2 league, the PSAC.

We took over a program that only won three games.

And so I saw a lot of opportunity within it.

And so a chance to grow and.

But there was an alignment from top to that this school doesn't.

The number one thing for our president is student athlete experience.

Period.

End of discussion.

And if our student athletes have good experience, I'll have a lifetime job.

If they don't, they'll fire me.

It doesn't matter if I go to the NCAA tournament, doesn't matter if I win five.

Win five games, and I can run a program doing it the way I believe is best and helping impact these young men so they can be successful in life.

So it was just so much alignment, and it's been awesome.

It's been terrific.

And our administration's top notch, and they're all about the right things.

And I inherited an incredible group of young men.

That reality just didn't have much direction, and we're in a.

They were in a bad environment from the previous regiment, and, you know, I was lucky to inherit this group, and I'm proud of what we've done.

What was in your mind when you took the job and you thought about trying to get the program going in the direction that you wanted it to and to try to reach your vision?

What was the number one thing that you felt like, I've got to get this going right away.

I got to get this right in order for us to get to where I want to go.

What was the.

What was the first thing in your mind when you took over?

Yeah, just culture.

Culture, Mike.

We, you know, and everybody says it, but I really believe it.

And we live it here.

This isn't just this talk on a podcast.

And so everything was everything.

Decision year one was about culture and sticking there.

And if something kind of didn't affect winning, did not worry about it.

I think sometimes people get caught up in stuff that's silly, that doesn't matter, and just making sure, hey, does every decision we have, is this going to affect winning or not?

And if it doesn't, don't worry about it.

We'll figure it out down the road.

And then, and then, and then the culture.

We got to get the kids to play really hard, to be really connected, to understand how to win, to be about each other.

And I think that's the nice thing.

Sometimes you take over a problem winning three games.

Mike, what are we going to win to?

Like, you don't have to worry about winning games, you know, like.

And so I, you know, we just want culture.

And.

And I remember, you know, we had a kid, Sam Tope, who was our best player coming back.

But, you know, when you're the best player coming back, you average 13 points a game shot like 39% from the floor.

Right.

And so Sam wasn't practicing as hard as he needed to.

And you know, our first scrimmage, I didn't know what I was going to do starting wise Mike.

I couldn't start him, so I made a rookie.

You know, I made, I think one of my good decisions.

I said, you know what we're going to do?

Because I knew, I didn't want to say I'm not going to start him.

But I also knew if I'm saying play hard, he's not doing what he needs to do, I can't start him.

So I just said, guys, what we're going to do is we did an NBA draft and we picked the starters and scrimmage out of a hat and by position.

So we couldn't get five centers out there.

Now the crazy thing is the same five guys were picked out of the hat that started the previous year.

And so we made sure we did the subs out of the hat too.

Mike, to see that all the names were in there.

I didn't pick it, we didn't rig it.

And I told Sam, if you don't play harder and if you don't do this, I'm not going to start you.

And Sam, to credit unreal human being.

I love Sam.

We have an unbelievable relationship.

Sam was very coachable, ended up having an unbelievable year.

Was all conference, 19 points a game average like 55% for the floor.

Playing professionally in Greece now and we have an unbelievable relationship.

But Sam a let me coach him and I just knew that like I had and I bench.

I'd been Sam three or four times during course of games because I thought his body language and his attitude just wasn't where it needs to be.

And you know, I think I was willing to just say, hey, we're going to, we're going to have that standard the way it needs to be.

And Sam again, I'm lucky to have guys like Sam that want to be coached, they want to do it the right way and you know, so culture, culture, culture, Mike and not lip.

That's all I cared about year one and really clarity how we're going to play.

Very simple.

We're going to play really hard and have some simple stuff on both sides of the ball.

But be really clear.

Yeah, it goes back to what you said earlier on in the conversation, right.

About having an honest discussion with somebody.

Right.

And telling them the truth.

And here's your returning leading scorer.

You're a brand new coach, probably a guy you want to have on your side.

But if he's not doing the things that you need him to do, you got to have that conversation.

And by doing that, you gave him what he needed, and he was able to turn it around and become the player that you thought he could be.

And it's not always easy to do.

Right.

Those conversations, again, it sounds like you learned that early on, but some people don't always learn that.

Hey, those tough conversations and telling players the truth is sometimes, especially for young coaches, that's hard to do.

And especially when it's your best player or somebody that you're really dependent upon, you're kind of like, maybe I can just let this guy slide a little bit.

And you realize that if you do that, it never works.

It always comes back to bite you.

And you're much better off ripping that band aid right off and.

And having the difficult conversation.

Then you get the most out of, you know, you get the most out of somebody that, you know that you possibly.

That you possibly can.

Where are you and where were you when you first took the job in terms of your philosophy on how you wanted to play X's and O's, wise, your style of play offensively and defensively?

Because I know I talked to a lot of guys, right, and you had the opportunity to work for a lot of great coaches in a lot of different places.

And clearly, everywhere you go, you learn something, you pick up things, you say, hey, I like this.

I don't like that.

And then as a head coach, you kind of have an idea, especially in your first job, of, this is kind of how I want to play.

And then it.

It takes you a little bit of time sometimes to.

To kind of figure out and hone exactly what you want your teams to look like.

So where are you in that process of.

And again, obviously, you tweak it a little bit depending upon your personnel, and in college, you have some control over, you know, bringing in guys that fit the way you want to play.

But.

But there's always tweaks to be made.

But just where are you in terms of a comfort level with your philosophy of.

Of how you want your teams to look and how you want them to play?

Yeah, I'd say we're still growing there, Mike.

I think year one, you know, offensively, I looked at our team and said, okay, let's.

What are we going to do to have some success?

We just opened some double gaps, drove it.

We were really simplistic.

We had some success there.

I loved, you know, when I was in army we played against Joey, Joey Gallo and Merrimack in that zone.

And so I know Joey and Phil Katana, one of the assistants and they, you know, I went up there and studied them and said, hey, we want three games.

I'm going to try to do a different defense.

I think when you're at a more challenging job, sometimes being unique.

So we've played the Merrimack zone, never coached before, barely ever coached zone and said, hey, we're going to jump into this.

We, you know, barely played any man.

And I think this year we might play a little bit of man Mike and still play that zone.

And so, you know, we're still learning a little bit on the defensive end, you know, a little bit if when we play man.

Exactly.

The best man.

But we got some good players to do it.

And then offensively after year one at William and Mary, I really liked the idea that, you know, we played more of a Princeton style.

But the only thing I didn't like, I liked it that the fact that the ball really moved, but I didn't like that it always went through the five man.

And so now we basically just said, hey, you know, one spring, hey guys, all I want to do is I want everybody to try to get in many two man actions as you can.

We can go scream, we can go get game, we could set ball screen.

I don't care if it's one on five, five on one, let's.

And then here's some basic concepts.

So we kind of have a free flowing motion, Mike, where our guys, you know, we've now gotten some rules within it because this is year three of it.

We have an older team, they kind of know how they're going to play and what it lets each guy do is use their own strength within an emotion.

And we say, hey, you're a downhill driver.

You should be cutting the help here.

You should be, you know, how do you put yourself in position?

Hey, you're a shooter.

What's your spacing on the perimeter?

So we kind of have a free flowing motion.

That's, that's kind of work in progress, Mike.

But part of me is, hey, there's 10 people in the game.

You know, I love where I'm at.

It's great level.

But like I'm not, you know, if you're, if you're John Shire, you know, and your first job's at Duke, you got to be a little risk, risk averse.

I'm just going to try some things on, on basketball side and see how it goes.

And I love how we're playing offense right now.

I really do.

You know, it's a fun way to play.

Our guys like it.

We really only call set plays on dead balls, so I think we have more clarity there.

Defense, we're getting there, but we played the zone the whole time.

We're pretty good defensively, so.

But I'm always looking for new things.

You know, I love studying the offseason and different concepts and you got to stay ahead of the game.

I mean, the game's so much better coached and taught than it's ever been, simply because the information, right, we're on this podcast, you know, talking, and people are going to listen in their car wherever they listen to and same with videos and YouTube and Synergy and, you know, when I was at Barton and William and Mary, that didn't exist.

And these young coaches don't understand how lucky we are to have this information, to really grow and to learn.

So.

But I love how we're playing offense and we've evolved a lot since we started, but the last three years have been the same offensively.

Yeah, it's fun, right?

It's fun to evolve and change and grow and figure stuff out.

And as you said, when you can go, and there's so many avenues to be able to learn, whether it's through the relationships that you have with other coaches and going and picking their brain or watching practice or again, as you said, the Internet is just, it's incredible.

It's an incredible tool.

You got to be careful, right, because you can find a million things that you're like, oh, I love that, I love that, I love that, I love that.

And so you got to be discerning in terms of what you, you know, what you, what you pick up and what you incorporate.

But certainly there's no shortage of tools for coaches who want to be out there and grow and learn and pick up new things.

And I think as a, as a first time head coach, everybody that I've talked to, you know, says it, it takes a year, two, three years to kind of really get the feel for, hey, who am I as a head coach and what do I want my teams to look like and what are the core things that I believe in?

And, and I think that as you get to that point again, you then you just get to where, where you're tweaking and you're saying, hey, this is, this is kind of the general area.

This is my, my basic philosophy.

And then there are things that we come off of that that help us to, to grow and be.

Be different each year.

And then obviously, as the game evolves, there's.

There's adjustments to be made from a coaching standpoint there as well.

All right, I want to ask you a final two part question to wrap this up.

So first part of the question, when you look ahead over the next year or two, what do you see as being your biggest challenge?

And then the second part of the question, when you think about what you get to do every single day, what brings you the most joy?

So your biggest challenge and then your biggest joy?

I think, I think the biggest challenge, Mike, is just always enjoying the little things in life.

And we always say in our program that the journey is the reward and to really make sure that we all enjoy the journey and not get caught up in wins and losses.

And, you know, I think sometimes year one was easy, Mike.

You know, we went from three wins to 16 wins and, and, you know, now we won 16 three straight years.

So some people say you're stuck on 16 and each team's a new team.

You know, we have, we have, you know, team 23 right here.

Just enjoying my time with those guys, enjoying the relationships.

And, you know, I talked about Josh Caldwell earlier, and as this podcast, one of the best parts for me in this podcast, Mike has been thinking about players that I got a chance and coaches I got a chance to coach with.

And like, that's what's special.

It's not wins and losses, it's not games.

And just remembering that when you're in the moment, I think as coaches, we all want to win, we're super competitive.

But really remembering what matters the most and enjoying the journey, that's my biggest challenge.

And, sorry, what was the, what was the other biggest joy?

I think the biggest joy is just sometimes the biggest.

Yeah, the biggest joy, Mike, is just, man, walking in that gym.

Like, you know, my joy is when I walk up, we have steps to get into our gym, and I hear the balls going, the music going, and you walk in there and you see the guys and just be like, man, we get that.

We get to have another practice, you know, and I think that's special.

And I think there's something in life you don't want to take special for granted and being part of a team, and for me, getting a chance to be a leader and a mentor for a special group of people, that's special.

And I don't want to take that for granted.

That gives me the most joy.

Well said.

And I think it goes back to what you talked about in terms of what Seton Hill is looking for, right.

Is providing guys with a great experience.

And if they're provided with a great experience that goes along with the journey, that goes along with the joy of just being with your guys on the practice floor, on the bus, on the road, at games, whatever, because you're providing with a great experience.

And to me, that's really again, ideally what it's all about.

Because if they're having a great experience, I think the wins and the wins and losses take care of themselves.

If you're, if you're giving guys an experience where Guy 1 and Guy 15 on your roster all can walk away and say, hey man, it was, that was a great four years playing for Coach Wilkins at Seton Hill.

There's, there's, there's no better compliment than, than that.

Before we get out, I want to give you a chance to share.

How can people get in touch with you, reach out to you, find out more about your program, share, email, social media, website, whatever you feel comfortable with.

And then after you do that, I'll jump back in and wrap things up.

Yeah, I have a Twitter.

I have no idea what the handle is.

My email.

We'll get that figured out.

We'll get that figured out.

Okay.

My email is I think B Wilkins W I L K N S at Setonhill Edu.

By far the best way though my Cell phone is 757-813-8964.

Shoot me a text.

I would like to stay off email and social media as much as I can.

So you know if anybody wants any, wants to talk hoops, any questions, man, I love to talk hoops.

Would help anybody out.

I can and I've been blessed with a lot of people helping me during the journey.

So one of my things is always give back.

So if any way I can help, shoot me a text and I'll help you out.

Ben, cannot thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule tonight to join us.

Really appreciate it and to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks.

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