0:00:05.3 Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vickie Brett.

0:00:08.9 I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:19.3 Each week, we're going to explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others and give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

0:00:33.9 Welcome back, friends.

0:00:34.6 Hi, hi. School year is shaping up.

0:00:38.5 We're in it.

0:00:39.7 I know. A lot of kiddos have been back at least for a week or two, and then there are some that start next week, end of August. It's always such a weird sensation being August because when I was a kid, I went back after Labor Day.

0:00:54.3 After Labor Day, Yeah, or right, right before where it didn't make sense to have a three-day weekend after the first day of school.

0:01:00.0 Yeah, and I know our Midwestern listeners love when I talk about California weather, but it's been a relatively cool summer, and so I'm feeling it's going to be a late heat, and these kiddos are going to be sweating in October. But anyway, we got a lot to get to, so I'm just going to cut the shtick down and welcome Dr. Rodriguez to our podcast. You know, we have done a lot with, on our Instagram, Amanda's done a great job of trying to keep with the latest things that have been happening, and something that we know happened last school year but is still very impactful was the Supreme Court decision, which $65 million in educator, you know, it was federally mandated educator funding that just got withheld. And we are so grateful for Dr. Jacqueline Rodriguez to come onto our podcast and really dive into it with us. Thank you so much for coming on, Dr. Rodriguez.

0:02:00.6 Oh my gosh, it's a pleasure to be here. You can call me Jackie. I'm thrilled to be talking with you all about the devastation of that 65 million.

0:02:09.1 Yeah, and so just before we kind of get into, you know, like a quick kind of summary of it, can you give our listeners a little bit about your background?

0:02:19.6 Sure. So I'm Jackie Rodriguez. I currently lead the National Center for Learning Disabilities, which is an almost 50-year-old organization. We're a not-for-profit. Yeah, we've been doing this work for a long time. And everybody in the special ed environment knows most of the time, if not all of the time, it's led by parents. Parents who just want to make sure their kids either have access to or opportunities for high-quality education and then a thriving livelihood. And so we were also the similarly situated by two parents who said, hey, this isn't working. And we've evolved. And most recently, we updated our mission and vision last year. And so we serve all students, their families, their educators, and their employers when it comes to ensuring people, we don't just think about people as like 0 to 18. We think about them like how do you enter the workspace and continue to thrive?

0:03:23.7 Which is very much needed and I can see why, you know, you have background and why we wanted to kind of talk to you about. So this, from our understanding, was 65 million designated for the acronym everybody loves to hate, DEI. What exactly happened with this Supreme Court ruling and what programs, you know, were affected by this withholding?

0:03:49.1 One, I so appreciate you trying to dig in here because it can feel really complicated as though we're talking about abstract programs that don't actually impact anyone. And in all candor, these are programs that are going to be shuttered and felt by every single kid in the country. So, oh yeah, 100% the teacher quality partnership grants and the SEED grants that the department has historically preserved for higher education and ensuring that we have high quality educators in classrooms, profession-ready educators in classrooms. Those are what were shuttered with that Supreme Court decision. I was a special educator and I started my career in the classroom and then I became a faculty member and prepared future special educators and colleagues of mine at universities across the country apply for these types of grants at the federal level and they send in their applications with these priorities that the department identifies ahead of time. And when you submit your proposal, you say, yeah, I'm going to prepare profession-ready teachers. They're going to serve in these types of classrooms, often Title I classrooms or most needed under-resourced spaces. And we're going to do that with this particular lens.

0:05:08.2 And that lens is what the federal government, they predict for you. They tell you what they want you to be looking toward. So all of my colleagues, right, wrote these grants. They were told, yep, these grants are going to be awarded and the type of inclusion that you're going to be providing, the type of equity that you're going to ensure and the type of diversity and educator you're going to recruit is a necessary part of the application. And then January and into February, we find out that that exact priority that the government required from people proposing these grants is now outlawed. And they used that to cut all of those grants, even though that was a requirement by the feds.

0:05:55.1 Well, and it's somewhat, in many ways, what we deal with all the time, a requirement under federal law. I mean, we talk all the time about how all the federal laws that we work with, the IDEA and ADA, we deal with the fact that inclusion is a key factor in special education, is a key factor in ensuring that all students receive appropriate education. And so then it is all of a sudden be like, not only is it not a priority, but now it's being outlawed. I mean, and we can go on and on about the hypocrisy of that, considering we've been dealing with this since January. But it is a wild thought that someone can just say, oh, it's outlawed when we know what the laws really say.

0:06:40.4 Yeah, the law requires the special education application when it comes to any of the functions of IDEA to be inclusive. And the government, right, the government has said these are our priorities to ensure that you uphold the law. And then when these grants were unceremoniously canceled or the money essentially withheld, there was an uproar, right? It wasn't just one state. When we think about the Supreme Court's decision, there was multiple attorneys general in states across the country who banded together and said, no, we're not going to stand for that. Nobody wants to enter litigation. That is typically the Z answer. It's not A, B, or C, right? But states did their best to try and work with the department, reach out to find out why the withholding was happening, what they could do about it. When it was very clear that there was no U-turn available, that's when litigation exists. So they pursued that first in the lower courts, even in the appellate court, which upheld that the government needed to return those funds. And the government appealed to the Supreme Court to ask for an emergency stay, essentially saying, like, don't allow the appellate court's decision to remain. We actually need these funds, and so you should side with us.

0:08:05.2 And my understanding was that those specific programs, the ones that you had named, right, the teacher quality partnership and the SEED program, like those were designed and help with this, you know, national teacher-wide shortage that we've had, that we saw a mass exodus during the pandemic, right? And we're just, like, making it even more difficult. And remember how many parents, Amanda, that would say to us, like, oh, my gosh, like, we are not paying our teachers enough, you know? Like, we need to be paying teachers more. And then to just have this happen, and oh, my God, like, is that right? Like, those were, those are designed, you know, to help teachers, not to just be a boring training that they have to do.

0:08:55.8 Absolutely. Absolutely. So these particular grants, the SEED and TQP grants, they serve under-resourced schools primarily. They serve multilingual learners, students with disabilities.These are the kinds of kids that depend on high-quality, inclusive educators. And we already know research, decades of it, tell us what's good in an inclusive classroom supports every learner, regardless of whether you're a learner with a specific identity. Let's take, like, Virginia Commonwealth University. VCU in Richmond, Virginia has been a recipient of TQP grants for quite some time. They have traditionally embedded a program of residency into their TQP work. What that means is educators aren't simply going to classrooms, I should say pre-service educators, to get the theoretical. They're also doing the practical. They're doing more than the state requirement when it comes to actually getting into classrooms and working with kids with a mentor teacher. The type of residency work is multi-year long. So they are actually working with a master educator to become the best kind of educator on day one. And that residency program has had exceptional outcomes. The data they have collected on the type of retention they have for teachers, right?

0:10:17.7 We saw mass exodus in COVID for lots of reasons, but lots of those were new teachers who just thought, can I keep doing this? Residency programs almost assure communities that they have teachers for a really long time. And part of the reason they do that and how they find teachers in the community. They find educators who are interested in staying in that school district, and they prepare them to be full-time teachers. And so, I mean, we can go on and on.

0:10:52.4 We get told so often when we're talking to teachers, whether it's candidly or like in IEP meetings, like, I don't know what else to do. Or, you know, I've used all the tools in my tool belt, and I'm not sure what to do next. And the reality is that their toolbox is so small relatively at the beginning, like whether it's the beginning of their career, or they just have been kind of stagnant in the same program for so long doing the things that we've always done. And they're not given the ability to learn new techniques or learn new methodologies. And so the idea is like this is something that is so needed. And we see across the board and we hear from, you know, listeners and we see online, not just from COVID, but just, you know, how do we, we're learning so much more about how kids learn. Over the last 10 years, the breadth of knowledge that has come out, and of course, before that too, but I think we've learned so much and we learned so much through COVID about some kids do really well during COVID, you know, and most of them didn't.

0:11:51.3 And we have this knowledge and we're just not utilizing it because it's not embedded in the traditional curriculum programming. You know, there's only so much a teacher can learn during their credential process. We need to be teaching within the classroom, like real world experiences. And it's just, it's not.

0:12:10.5 What's wild is the SEED grants almost expressly are designed for what you just described, collaboration. That's what the federal government's Department of Education has prioritized is the recognition that we now know how students learn in a more deeper way, right? And so if that's the case, let's create the conditions for that to happen. And SEED grants in a nutshell are a mechanism to help create that like school system ecosystem, that deep collaboration, that intentional, we're going to talk to one another. That's how that works. And if you're a young teacher in your career, regardless of your age, you're right, Amanda, you have a very few amount of tools in your tool belt based on your own experience. But if you're working with a master teacher in a residency, or you're a part of a SEED grant where you're getting that kind of intentional mentorship, then your tool belt is doubly and triply larger because you're working with all these other people and you're borrowing from theirs.

0:13:15.6 Right. And a lot of states already struggle with trying to fully fund these programs, right? And to provide diverse environments for all students. And that includes students with disabilities. And we can see how this is a direct threat to the clientele that we serve. And I think the educational landscape is just, as we start this new school year, we're kind of getting a lot of, oh, we don't know, or we're okay, or we've already kind of seen cuts in different programs. Amanda, you had mentioned someone in your area saying a TK program or classroom was already cut. People may not, and us breaking it down, it's not this evil acronym of DEI. No, it's literally, if you just break it down, most people would be like, oh, we want that. We want people from the community in the schools. We want children to see themselves in the adults that are teaching them.

0:14:17.9 Yeah. And it's all the things that anyone who tries to challenge the legitimacy of the Federal Department of Education who says, we don't need it anyway, we want better curriculum, we want better teachers, all these things that in reality are already left up to the states, the states don't do a good job on, which is why we have to rely on these types of grant funding. I mean, that's why nonprofits exist, grants exist, because the government doesn't do enough. Notoriously, we know that. But yet people are not knowledgeable about this. They don't understand how the structure works. And I mean, we know that the writing is on the wall, that a big reason for outlawing DEI isn't just because things have become too woke. It's they really don't want educated people. They don't want educated children. They don't want the next generation to be educated.

0:15:13.5 I think you said something earlier, Vickie, that I wanted to bring back up to your point, Amanda, around dismantling ed, and that's when you think about teacher quality, that's bipartisan. When you think about the federal investment in the teacher preparation space and the expectation from every person in the country that we have a high-quality education system, that is bipartisan. This is perhaps one of the first times in our more recent history that we have politicized teacher preparation. We have said, no, we only want high-quality, profession-ready educators in specific areas that have already established deep investments because they're in affluent communities where state and local tax can help support that. So it's a dangerous, dangerous precedent that's being set by the federal decision-making around not just the TQP and SEED grants but other monies that are being withheld and for the purposes that they're telling us. And to that end, I'll note that I agree with you, Amanda, the public is unaware. So last week, NCLB was invited by Senator Hirono to testify at the Spotlight Forum to discuss and describe the current circumstances for K-12 education and what would happen if the department was somehow dismantled.

0:16:38.7 And the last question the senator asked all of us who were witnesses was, do you think the public is aware? And I agree, I do not think that the layperson, especially the layperson whose students are in the general education setting primarily, they are not aware of what the department does to invest in their specific child. I would argue parents of kids receiving special education services are more aware, they're clear that their IEP is governed by a federal law and that that law is essentially insured by the departments either Office of Civil Rights when it comes to disputes or through Office of Special Education Rehabilitative Services when it comes to functional implementation, whether it's research or preparation, etcetera. I think more parents in special ed are clear on that, but I don't think the preponderance of Americans recognize the value proposition of the department and it's up to us to call that out. We have to be not just furious at what's happening, we have to take action.

0:17:49.3 Yeah, and I mean, that's exactly where I wanted to go. You know, what next? You know, and that's what Amanda and I, you know, seek to accomplish within the podcast realm, but, you know, also with our social media, you know, what can students, schools, you know, the community at large do not only, you know, to protect themselves, which is going to be a big theme that, you know, you're going to hear us say this multiple times of how parents, you know, can protect themselves and their children, especially those with IEPs and 504s, you know, but I do want to stress as well, it's not just about the money, the broader context is equity and accessibility. And, you know, that what you were saying, Jackie, about this being a dangerous precedent, I don't, I think that people, you know, the DEI acronym was thrown out so people were like, oh, it's not that effect, but it really is. And, you know, one of the ways that we want our listeners to understand is that yes, one way are legal challenges, right? And advocacy at that broader level, but also just getting back into your community, into attending board meetings, into making your presence known as best as you can, right? 

0:19:03.7 And if you don't have the time, capacity, or space to do that, completely understand, just be aware and talk about it because that is how you are going to have your neighbor actually understand what's going on is you having an awareness about it and then talking about it.

0:19:23.3 I couldn't agree more. I think to your point, what happens next is critical. If we stay silent, rollbacks like these will just continue. We have to speak up. We have to mobilize. We have to push back because that is the only protection that our students are going to receive in the future is our voice. And if we don't say something, they won't have any of what we call the federal backstop. And we said this earlier, states have traditionally not done the best job of assuring and ensuring rights to a high quality education for kids with disabilities. That's one of the major reasons we have a Department of Education and not a Bureau of Education like it was once. And so, I mean, part of NCLD's push has always been calls to action. We, like many, many nonprofits, host on our website pages where a person of interest can go on, identify their zip code, look at some already prepared verbiage, and send a letter urging their specific representative or senator to think about education funding in these ways. So, for example, the president's budget zeroes out the National Center for Special Education Research. There is no line item in that budget proposal for NICSR.

0:20:49.0 It is one of the spaces where the most innovative research on how to serve all kids in inclusive environments comes from. And so, I mean, do we want that to happen? No, we want appropriators to recognize its value. But appropriators are your representative, your senators. They need to hear from you. So if you're not available at a town hall or you are working evenings and so you can't participate in the evening news and get all of the information, websites like ours and others in the disability community, we all have these sort of pre-made calls to action. And I've heard people say, I don't know, do people even read them? I can tell you that I have seen on both sides of the aisle, people bring up the fact that they've heard from blank number of constituents on this issue. They have said, hey, the telephone calls I've received last week on this mean I need to actually say something. And it is working. So I would really encourage people to do that kind of outreach.

0:21:53.7 Well, we already know that at the beginning of the summer, there was a lot of money, general education funds being withheld to many, many states by the federal administration. And there was such an uproar, not just by representatives that were fighting and governors and lawsuits, but also by people, parents realizing, oh, that's funds for my child's education or teachers, educators. And we've started to see over the last week that we're recording this funds being released finally. And I don't know that it would have been released before the school year starts if there hadn't been as much pressure. So it does make a huge difference.

0:22:34.8 Oh, I totally agree. I think to that end, that might be one of the best examples in the last six months where the just typical person reached out, made it clear where they stood, and then people on both sides of the aisle lifted that issue up. And I will tell you, even when we see such partisanship in the news and in the congressional halls, in meetings, I still think, I still believe that at the core, everybody does want every kid to be highly educated. And so what we saw with that $7 billion in the funds that were illegally withheld, practically speaking, a week in some cases, but maybe several weeks prior to the school year, which budgets, decimated budgets, right?

0:23:25.3 Totally.

0:23:25.8 What we saw was a concerted effort by both houses, the House and the Senate, and by regular people making this clear this is a problem. And I will encourage two populations to stand up very vocally. And those are the school leaders. We often see school leaders get really nervous about making their voice held and heard. And yet, principals across the country, you should be enraged. You should be enraged when those titled funds, which are statutorily obligated and already appropriated are being withheld. Superintendents should be calling out the problems this is creating. And I think those two specific populations are a large part of why those funds were released last Friday.

0:24:17.4 Oh, absolutely. And the data collection and the need to be transparent will happen. But for them to anecdotally talk about the impact immediately, right, is what I think can turn the tide. And if there was ever a time to be vigilant, I know there are so many things going on, immigration at one level, right? And it's like, you know, you can't keep up, right? Especially the way at which announcements are made under this administration. But if there is one thing that you can pick, one thing that you can weave into your lives, if you're a parent, if you're an educator who is listening, is to have an awareness of what is happening, not just with funding, but what is happening with the schools, what is happening with the attempt to dismantle the Department of Education. If you could just become a mini expert in one little thing, because I'm telling you, too many things are happening. But if my friend called me up and had said, what's going on with this 65 million, I feel so much more confident, not just because of my job and talking to you, Dr. Rodriguez, but that I've been keeping up with it, because you have to make these decisions to protect yourself.

0:25:33.0 But now is the time to be vigilant. If you are waiting or inadvertently putting your head in the sand, now is the time to get it out of the sand and weave this, because your children are impacted, your neighbors are impacted, and we are gonna be here to try to help in whatever way. I am so happy with the website, your website that has calls of actions. Can you give us the name of the websites, and we'll put it in the show notes as well, but where individuals can go and then how they can contact you if they want to reach out.

0:26:10.1 Absolutely, so the National Center for Learning Disabilities, we just use the acronym ncld.org. And once you get to NCLD, there's actually a place at the very top says take action. When you click on the take action link, it directly moves you to how you can identify to your point, Vickie, which area you really want to invest. Do you want to become an expert in the Department of Education and how it supports every kid, every educator, all the families? Or do you want to think about educational research? For example, what about all of the information we now know about kids, the preponderance of that came from federal investments in research, not for profits and smaller organizations. We don't have the type of longitudinal data that the federal government can and does invest in. So like that's another area that people can become more interested in and and you know advocate for and then we have a particular piece of legislation that we're hoping shows up in the Senate later this fall has already been introduced in the House this past spring early summer because it's called the rise act and for those of you out there who have kids who are moving into the university system the rise act is a federal investment in ensuring that universities take your person's IEP or 504 plan and it is now evidence of a disability.

0:27:41.6 They do not have to get re-evaluated. They don't have to go back to the high school and ask for an update. You know all the money and time they can just go straight into the office of accessibility and say hey we would really like to see this type of accommodation. This is what worked for me before. Can you make that happen? Is that available? So for those who are really invested in higher education and the workforce you know and getting people into the workforce the rise act is one you might want to become like a mini expert in so to speak. Yeah so that's the website.

0:28:15.2 Wonderful. I mean I'm sure we'll have to have you back on to either discuss the rise act once you get some movement on it or just another situation that we can kind of break down for our listeners because I know for Amanda and I you know we were we were really excited to have somebody other than ourselves to talk to us because you know we got our lawyer brains on but no it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much Dr. Rodriguez for coming on.

0:28:41.9 Oh my gosh it's been a true pleasure for me. I really appreciate you all investing time and energy into breaking down what can be very complicated issues and making sure that everybody is keenly and educated like aware and educated on it and if anybody wants to reach out to us for follow-up I tell everybody this from students to families. If you don't reach out it's a missed opportunity because there are always ways for us to make connections so happy to do that.

0:29:09.2 Well to our listeners we'll have more for you in two weeks for our next episode and keep on following us on Instagram and sending us if you have specific questions related to this episode or just in general we love to hear them and we will talk to you soon.

0:29:24.1 Bye-bye.