Welcome to the Borderlands Trail and Ultra Running podcast.

My name is Josh Rosenthal.

How is such a ubiquitous brand like Brooks running still an enigma?

We're gonna figure that out today.

Borderlands.

Somehow we're still not learning Borderlands.

We still suck at running.

My guest today is Taylor Bodeen.

He's the lead trail reviewer at Believe in the run.

If you haven't heard of believe in the run, the link is in the show notes the go to spot for gear reviews in the industry.

Go read about the gear you love and go learn about a whole lot of new gear there.

I love having Taylor on these shows.

He's like an encyclopedia.

He knows these brands inside and out, and we hope to be doing a lot of these episodes together.

This is number three, and in number three we're talking about Brooks, but we've done Solomon, we've done north face.

The goal is to do a lot of heritage brands and then start to dive into some newer brands.

And we'll bridge that with some of the in between brands, some of the newer, but not quite as new as, say, a speedland or Norda.

As we dive into Brooks today, though, you're going to learn a lot about what makes them unique and this enigma of Brooks around.

You're going to hear us talk about it a lot, that they're everywhere.

You'll see them all the time, and at the same time, there's something that just doesn't click and just doesn't make them top of mind when you think of trail running, no matter how synonymous or tied to Scott Jericho they are.

My 1st 50 miler was in the Cascadias back in 2016 and I bet a lot of you have similar stories where if you started after the born to run craze, you tried the barefoot running thing, you didn't stick with it, and then you went out and bought a pair of trail shoes.

I bet you bought Cascadias.

If not, they were like Cascadia adjacent, like the speed goat.

If you like gear, if you like stories, if you like doing deep dives into brands, this episode is for you.

Before we get into it, if you're looking for a 50k for the spring next year, I'd love to have you join me at the race that I put on in the foothills of Salt Lake City called the Salt Lake Foothills trail races.

I put it on with my race organization called Open Range trails that I do with my buddy Joey and Jared.

We are putting together what I think is the most unique ten k half marathon 50k event in the world.

But I guess you can be the judge of that as we roll out all the fun stuff that we plan to do here in the coming weeks and months.

Reserve your spot now.

Ultra signup has us, or go to openrangeraces.com.

okay, here we go.

Here's my episode with Taylor Bodine, lead trail reviewer of Believe in the Run all about brooks running.

When I set out to do episodes about gear, knowing that it's far from my strong suit, I reached out because I'm a big fan of believing the run.

I reached out to Thomas, who started it, and he said, hey, you should get Taylor on.

And so this is the third episode I'm about to do with Taylor Bodine.

He's the lead trial reviewer of Believe in the Run, and there is no greater authority, I think, on a holistic view of what's happening in shoes, then Taylor and believe in the run within trail, specifically believe in the run of all shoes of all running types, and then Taylor specifically with trail.

And so for me, these episodes are less like my take on gear, and this is more just like pulling information out of who I now call encyclopedia Bodine.

I'm such a curious person, and it's fun that Taylor just about always has it has an answer.

And today we're doing Brooks and I crowdsourced some information, and I want to read some of that information.

But first, I want to welcome you.

Taylor, thanks for joining me.

Thank you.

Yeah, it's been such a pleasure to do these talks, nerding out and hopefully giving some good information to consumers.

For sure.

The feedback and the engagement on these episodes have been awesome, and that's a credit to you.

The other day, I think I want to go and say, now one of my favorite things to do, like credit where credit is due, is very important to me.

I haven't heard the episode, but Dylan Bowman gave a shout out to me the other day on second nature saying that.

I said, the north face is the most underrated shoe in trail running, and I'm working to set the record straight.

I heard Taylor say it on my podcast, so make sure that you get the credit for it.

I'm riding, you know, I'm riding shotgun where you're going.

So I'm with you on that after you did that deep dive, but make sure that you get the credit for that.

Well, thank you, but I think maybe the revolution has started a little bit.

We're both informed now, right?

Yeah.

I'm not.

You and I are not the only one saying that.

Saying that yeah, well, I heard it.

I heard it from you first.

So.

Yeah, thank you.

Okay, let me give.

So I put on instagram, hey, what do you think of when you think about Brooks?

Just to get some feedback.

And I'm going to read off some of these and then I'm just going to give some of my high level impressions.

And then let's go into your response on these, Taylor, because I think it'll move us nicely into the technology that they're, that they're doing now, what they're up to now, and even look at where they've been, a number of people said Scott Jurich, but my favorite is that someone said Scott Jurick.

And that's a problem because how is Brooks still only known for Scott Jericho?

Like, where's the new, like, iconic name that, you know, that they could be known for?

But many people said, when I think of Brooks at trail running, I think of that someone said plush road.

They think they have plush road running.

I'm surprised at how many people said, tell me about the trail super shoe.

So maybe you can shed some light on that.

Are they working on it or people just in general hoping that someone brings that overarching concept to trail?

Why don't you, why don't you tell me that?

Is Brooks specifically talking about a trail super shoe?

Or do you think people are just in general waiting for that shoe to drop?

Well, I think Brooks is one of the few that hasn't dropped a trail super shoe.

So I think that's what people are probably waiting for of that to come and we'll get into this more.

And like, I haven't even seen, I'm the type of person who, like, on every race, I'm a fan of the sport, so, but on every race, I'm zooming in on all the, all the athletes looking at their new prototypes, all that kind of stuff.

And Brooks just, they're either too good at hiding it where they're not getting any organic, organic marketing there, or they just haven't had any super shoe coming yet.

And I think it's probably more along those lines, giving their most recent history that everybody is kind of waiting for it.

They've had their Hyperion race day shoe for the marathon market, and their approach on that has been quite a bit different than most other brands.

And so I think, I mean, that model could have some really good direct application to trail.

So I think people are probably wanting something when they say that, rather than excited about something that they know of.

Got it.

Well, when I think of Brooks I think of, like, they're.

They are ubiquitous to me.

In my mind, they live in the same category as asics.

Like, they're.

They feel.

It feels like they're everywhere and no one loves them and no one hates them.

It's just I see them, and it feels like somehow they've.

Because they're ubiquitous.

They're in every running store.

They have a place on their cascadia is at, I don't know, number 16 now, 17.

Whatever they're at now, they've been doing those for a long time.

They've got other lines, but they don't garner the same, like, fanboy fangirl sort of excitement as a speedland or, you know, as even, like, you know, some people get excited about some of the Tareks.

Like, they're not fashion.

They're not.

That's maybe it.

They're not gonna be the type of shoes that you wear out and about around town if you're, like, into fashion, which so much trail running shoes have been that way.

So they're everywhere.

They're enormous.

To go get some photos for this episode, I went to Iren.

I don't even know how to say it.

I run France or iron Fr.

Okay.

Yep.

An online store here, and I went to their.

Their brick and mortar, and it was.

It was almost entirely, exclusively Brooks, all of the displays.

So I got tons of photos of Brooks everywhere.

So Brooks is enormous.

But somehow, in, like, our little world of trailhead, it doesn't make it out into the.

It doesn't make it out in front the way the others do.

Okay, so now that, that's me laying the foundation for this, and I want to.

I'm curious if you agree and if so, why?

Or if you disagree, why?

I don't disagree, that's for sure.

Brooks has been.

When you think of the modern market of running shoes in general, Brooks has been one that they hold back.

They hold back a little bit, and they've been kind of become more known for that, of they're not on the leading edge for the most part of a lot of these technologies, a lot of these trends.

And so they seem to have some sort of lag effect.

But when they do come out with something new or updated, a lot of times it's a big.

It feels like a big swing for them, like, with the nitro foam.

A lot of their things have this nitro foam that they've been producing and even were one of the first to have in some shoes, but they didn't go all in on it.

Right away until it started taking hold in the market.

A lot of other companies either caught up or went ahead of them in that, in that sense of technology, and then they went for it.

That's kind of what the modern market of Brooks is like.

That's a great explanation.

I totally resonate with that.

Go ahead.

Yeah, well, and I'm in.

It kind of feels weird from the consumer that's in our generation, because at one point, the Hoka speedgoat of today was the Brooks Cascadia.

Everybody had it.

Like, you can show up to a race nowadays and even the big massive races, UTMB and western states, like, get one in France and in the US, and 30% of the runners are wearing hoka and a lot of those would be hoka.

Speed goat at one point.

Again, that was just the Brooks Cascadia, which is what Scott Jurick really helped bring to the Brooks table, and I get that out to the masses.

Yeah.

Why do you think that the Cascadia.

Yeah.

Maybe shed some light on that.

Why do I associate Scott jerk with Brooks and the Cascadia?

And it's like, with speed goat?

That's Carl Meltzler's shoes.

And so that's his nickname.

Makes a little bit more sense.

Then why do I think of Scott jerk with the Cascadia?

Yeah, because the Cascadia is really his shoe.

And so is it still his shoe?

Yeah, that's what people would consider it, still his shoe.

Even some marketing campaigns will still have Scott Jurek in the Cascadia every now and then.

But, yeah, it's his shoe.

So when he, back in his heyday, in terms of performance, he won western states five times in a row.

And then after that, so like 2000, mid 2000, like 2007 or something like that, he signed with Brooks.

But this was after he had won.

After he was.

Yes.

And so he had signed with Brooks and then they.

He immediately started collaborating, collaborating with them on the shoe.

A shoe.

A trail running specific shoe, which turned into the Cascadia.

Got it.

And I would say that, like you said, giving credit where credit's due, the Cascadia and Brooks are really responsible for the big swing of modern performance movement in trail running.

Really?

Yeah.

And so, like, the Cascadia was one of the first true trail shoes, for one.

And trail running shoes, I should say, because a lot of them came from a hiking background, or we talked about Solomon coming from a skiing background.

Adventure, running and trekking was big in the nineties, so a lot of it had that influence.

But this came from a running shoe sports shoe perspective, because that's Brooks heritage.

So, yeah, then the Cascadia came on, and it was one of the first to have, like, a rocker like profile.

So we talked about that with the north face shoes.

Most shoes have a rocker like profile right now where it's kind of pushing you toward the toe, rolling you, rather than being on a tilt toward that toe.

Really efficient.

They were one of the first to have a different type of support mechanism, so they had, like, four different posts inside the shoe instead of one on the inside of your foot to support it.

Oh, interesting.

And so more of a dynamic support system.

Were also one of the first to bring Eva midsoles, one to running, but also to running shoes, and start to advance that technology within trail running.

Can you explain what that is?

Yeah, so Eva is just before Eva and running shoes, it was a lot of rubberized midsole, so the cushion underneath your foot.

So rubber was good for being really durable and moldable.

But then when you bring in a manufactured material like Eva, it's one a whole lot lighter.

You're able to play with it a whole lot more of different durometers.

So how firm it is, different feeling underfoot, and, yeah, it's just gonna feel so much better.

So then that's where a whole lot of running shoes and Brooks claims to be the first to bring Eva to running shoes, and I didn't know that.

And so that Eva is in almost every single running shoe in modern day.

Interesting.

So, okay, so on some levels where I'm resonating with you earlier, and you were saying they're never like, cutting edge out front.

That's not exactly what you said, but it didn't feel like, you know, they're nothing.

They're not the first to release something, but when it's working, they've got money and mass distribution.

They can take this micro technology that someone's created, get the patent to it or whatever, however that works, and then they wide distribution.

So they're so big that they're not going to be risking, on those small levels, they'll let someone else do that risk.

It works, they'll take it.

So they're never the most, from my level of consumption of the industry, very different from yours.

They're not the.

They're never the leading edge of the articles about running shoes to me, because whatever they've done, maybe someone else has already done it.

I don't, I don't completely understand.

And maybe what I'm trying to do here is, out loud, make sense of why they don't live in a more special spot in my brain as a great running shoe.

Well, and we at believe in the run kind of feel the same way, too, of, like, they have all the resources.

It's not like they don't have athletes to work with.

Having athletes like Des Lyndon.

Oh, wow.

You know, like, you know, they have.

They have all the resources to be able to be in that top tier, across the board, but for some reason, they're.

They're slow to the start line, you know?

Do you know, are they owned by.

Are they in, like, is there a VF footwear or VF whatever companies, whatever that owns them?

Are they still their own thing?

I believe that they're their own thing, but we'll have to look into that.

I believe that they are, but, yeah.

And the other thing is that Brooks just seems to.

When they get comfortable, they get comfortable.

Like, the ghost is still one of the most profitable shoes on the market, and it continues to be year after year after year.

It's the number one selling shoe from brick and mortar stores across around the world.

Really?

And so, yeah.

And so when you have a shoe like that that you kind of rest on and you know it's gonna sell, it doesn't have.

For better, for worse, it doesn't have a lot of updates from year to year.

It's gonna be very minimal.

And so when you have a shoe like that, even if it's just one shoe, and they have.

They have a couple, like, especially on the roadside, you have the ghost, the glycerin.

Um, it's hard to get away from that.

And for summary, for some.

In some sense, I don't blame them for that.

Yeah, but.

But the modern market, I hear you.

Like, they've got something that works and it sells.

Like, good for them.

Don't change that.

Like, keep doing.

I'm trying to find the price of the ghost as a reference.

Is it.

Did I see 75th?

How much?

It's probably in the 150 area.

Okay.

So for probably, I guess I'm looking on a french website, but, yeah, the irun fr has them at, like, 118.

€118.

Yeah, their most recent is right around 140.

Yeah, 120.

Okay.

Pardon me.

I was gonna say maybe they're the best selling because there's, like, a value proposition there, that they're less expensive, but they're nothing.

No.

And, I mean, one thing that we love about these big heritage brands, when you get to, like, Brooks, Asics, you know, those brands, they.

They've had so much history to figure some things out.

And so in some ways, they shouldn't change.

Like, they're the last that they build the shoes on.

It just fits most people's foot really well.

Their uppers are some of the best uppers in the game, and that's without saying that they have to modernize or whatever.

They just.

They're just able to do some of their things so well that maybe they don't need to change.

Yeah, but using Speedland as, like, the reference, just because I'm a fan of theirs, they're so new that they may come out with something that they think is going to be great in year one, which was just a couple years ago, and then they're going to innovate on it.

So, like, from a PR standpoint, they've got something to talk about.

Every year.

We innovated this, we innovated on that.

Whereas a Brooks and asics, a Solomon, even at this point, and, you know, talking about north Face, maybe being on the opposite end, where they've innovated a lot lately that you.

Brooks doesn't have as much to talk about then because if they are keeping so much the same, if they early years, they were changing every year, then they nailed it.

And it hasn't changed for 20 years.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And that's like, they've been riding the Cascadia a lot, and it did have some updates, like four or five years ago that are really influencing where the model is now.

But again, that was like four to five years ago.

And like, let's see some things and we'll get into some shoes that they have that are really modern and they kind of, again, wait for a time and then they'll come out with something, but then it's going to be four or five years again until something really new or intriguing comes out from them.

But I'm saying all this.

But between our believe in the run trail reviewers, a lot of us are like, well, somehow they have one of the better top to bottom lines of that they can offer for a trail running.

And so, yeah, we have all this in one conversation about one brand and.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That as a heritage brand, you would think you'd be, it'd be succinct, easy to characterize them, but somehow with Brooks, it's confusing.

But I think I'm confused on how to characterize them because the Nordas, the speed lane, all the stuff that's been just so out front that, like, that sex appeal of these beautiful new shoes, high design, the way that they're marketed all those sort of things talk to me better than the Brooks marketing talks to me.

Yeah.

And their team, they've got interesting people on their team.

Like you said, those, all those components are there, but, yeah, I don't know what's happening in, in shoes for them right now.

Like, what are you seeing?

Are they innovating on their foam?

You know, you've taught me.

Now I'm in a running store, I'm looking at foam.

I'm like squeezing shoes now to try and figure out what, what's happening with foam.

I've never done that before.

Let me grab.

And while you grab them, I'll say this.

I looked at some pictures the other day of my first ultras.

My 1st 50 miler was in cascadias.

Yeah, but I don't really.

Everybody was.

Yeah, I don't.

But I don't.

I mean, and this was 2016, it was Capitol reef 50 miler.

And I looked at the photo and was like, oh, those are, those are old Cascadias.

And I knew that I owned them, but they don't have a special place in my heart.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

I mean, you would hope so when it was such a landmark shoe that came out and it was just on everybody's foot.

Yeah.

Like almost literally everybody who showed up to a trail race if they had a trail running shoe.

That's what it was.

Right.

Makes sense.

I mean, because Scott Jerry's, especially then in the mid 2010s, early 2010s, was still, you know, the icon of icons, if not still to this day.

But at that time especially, he was with born to run being fairly recent at that point, like all the thing, all the reasons to celebrate Scott Jericho were alive and well.

And so that Cascadia was everywhere.

And that's not counting also that it was a good shoe.

It was like running in a suburban.

Rocks were no problem for those things.

Yep.

Yeah.

And it was one of those shoes that hit the middle really well.

It had support.

It had everything you that you thought or think you want in a trail shoe.

And that's why something like the speed goat is one of its main contenders and kind of took over because they took all those ideas and just modernized them a little bit more and a little quicker than Brooks did.

But yeah, it had all the things, like you said, it had protection, it had grip, it had some stability to go a long ways.

So everything that you think you want in a trail shoe, but you don't need all of those things.

And I'll show you some of those in some of their more recent offerings, but it hit pretty much every box that you think you'd want in a trail shoot and that you'd appreciate as a consumer.

And you just said something interesting because it made me think.

We've had some conversation.

We had a conversation offline that Topo.

Is it Topo athletic?

Yeah, topo.

I was gonna say topo designs.

That's like a Colorado, like, bag company.

Topo athletics is more ultra than ultra.

Like, they, you know, they're competing on the original value proposition of ultra.

And so on some levels, if you were loyal to ultra early on and you loved what they were doing, Topo athletics is the.

Is the shoe you should be buying right now.

Yep.

Is that similar than what you're saying with the speed goat?

Is that they came along because they were a newer shoe?

Maybe they came in with innovation.

They came in with maybe more modern marketing or marketing more appealing to the average runner.

So are you saying that the speed go value proposition is what the Cascadia value proposition was like?

They were going head to head for market share?

Yeah, I would say that's the basic idea around.

That's interesting.

And, man, did the speed go really get out there and crush.

That's incredible.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And that was one of the.

It still is probably the leading trail shoe that's bought by consumers.

So, yeah, I bet you if we pulled, like, running warehouse, I'm sure there, the percentage of speed goat to any other shoe is way high.

Yeah, yeah.

Crazy.

Yeah.

But I'll kind of like the Brooks Cascadia is still around today.

It's becoming their, it's their foundation shoe.

They're not going to change it much from year to year.

It has taken on some sports style physique, for sure.

And it's going to be, for a runner, it's going to be better for those who are wanting some stability, wanting not a ton of character from their shoe, just something that's going to be solid.

You can hike in, you could jog some in.

And so that's what the Brooks Cascadia is today.

Really, the way that you put that is like, oh, you know what?

That, you know, it kind of does a little bit of everything pretty.

You know, the first thought is like, oh, but it's not.

As, you know, does sound as cool.

Then you realize, like, hey, from a, if I've got.

I don't remember how much they cost off top of my head.

If I've got dollar 150 for shoes, that's exactly what I want in a shoe.

That it's versatile like that, you know, if I'm not on the market for, you know, this Norda and that shoe and this shoe, like, man, what you just explained, it's the perfect scenario for a shoe.

I'm gonna buy one shoe.

It's gonna last me.

I'm only gonna buy one shoe this season.

It sounds like I can get all that stuff out of it.

That's a really interesting value proposition.

Yeah.

And I.

I know this is about Brooks, but we keep coming back to the speed go.

But again, that was, that's the shoe for today of, like, that's the same premise that they're operating off of.

It's the, it's the one shoe that you can get.

It has some of everything you can do, just about anything in it, and you'll be happy.

Yeah.

Run happy, right?

Yeah.

There you go.

So we.

Yeah, that's perfect.

We naturally arrived at their slogan, like, nailed it with that.

Yeah.

But I am also happy to say that they do have some great offerings.

Outside of that, they have, like, the Brooks divide, which is like your entry trail runner.

And so it's going to have a little more of a.

A road runners feel.

It's going to feel like a ghost with some extra tread, a little extra support.

Again, what you feel like you should have as a trail runner, especially if you're getting into trail running for the first time.

Yeah.

You still have the familiarity of a road shoe.

So that's.

That's decent.

Really nice shoe.

Yeah.

It is a nice looking shoe.

And for its value and what it'd be used for and who it would have be marketed to.

Good shoes.

Good shoe.

Yeah.

Um, but then once you go up, I'd say their next most popular shoe is probably this Brooks Caldera and that the newest model.

This is the newest model.

Yep.

So I think.

I think it looks real nice.

Like, I think are real nice.

This is going to be their high stack model.

So it's getting into those upper 30.

Think this one might even be at like 40 millimeter stack.

I don't know all those specs off the top of my head for this one.

But just a few years ago, this is one of the shoes that made them relevant again, the caldera, because, again, we talked about foam a lot, and I think foam is.

I know foam is the future of running at all.

Trail running and road running, but they finally brought their nitrogen infused foam.

So this is the same Eva that we were talking about.

Really versatile material.

Almost all trail run running shoes.

All road running shoes have them.

But what a nitrogen infused Eva is, is that they literally take nitrogen gas and infuse it in the process while they're creating this foam.

And so they have to have, they bring it up to a certain temperature, and, and then that nitrogen reacts with the foam differently.

So it makes it bouncier, makes it softer, just.

And so there's a lot of reasons why that just sounds comfortable.

Right, right.

And I think that's where Brooks has, like we said, just been a little late to the game of, like, they've had this nitrogenous infused technology for a long time, and.

But they're now just bring it across to other shoes in their line.

And so, but it's really comfortable, really cushioned.

This is super stable.

If you look at the outsole, it's a really wide outsole.

And so this is like, if you're a runner who wants lots of cushion, a fun ride, and, you know, the grip and your foot really sits down.

It has this bathtub construction is what it says.

So someone called it a, in the comments said a bucket seat, basically.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Can you explain that?

That's, that's interesting.

Yeah.

So in the, in the running world, we call it a bathtub construction because the foam will come up and make some of these walls.

They're called sidewalls, so they'll make walls on the side of the foot, kind of cupping it all throughout.

And some shoes will achieve that just with the insert that they come in.

Like, anybody who's putting in a custom insert is kind of getting that already out of any shoe they want.

But it really just helps your foot sit down in it, gives you more control, more stability, and you're able to get a better lockdown from everything.

So in a high stack shoe like this, like, everybody's afraid.

I shouldn't say everybody, but initially, when Hoka came out of, they were treacherous.

Right.

I was afraid on top of this.

Yeah, I still am sometimes.

But once you're able to sit down in the foam a little bit, it.

Yeah.

Just provides so much more comfort and control.

Is that unique to Brooks or is that common?

No, but this, you really feel it in a shoe like the caldera.

It's.

It's a modern day common for high stack shoes.

It's one of the ways they've problem solved for the instability and kind of treachery that comes along with running trails in a high stack shoe.

Got it.

Yeah.

So this is, this is one of our overall favorites for the year, for a high stack shoe.

Wow.

It's been.

It's been good.

Like, very good, actually.

Yeah, that's a good one.

I mean, I like that.

The minty green on the bottom.

It's nice, solid color.

You've brought up Speedland.

I think that's kind of an ode to that area of the world.

Yeah.

Speedland came into.

They came.

Speedland came into the picture when Minty green was, I think, at its peak, like, as a trendy color, like that.

Minty green.

So to see that on there, it's kind of funny, but, I mean, one of my best friends has a.

An old, like, c ten truck named Minty that's painted mint like that.

Like, that color.

That color hits hard for some people.

Yeah, yeah.

I always think of it as more of, like, the lichen growing on rocks.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's what makes me think of.

So that's the caldera.

And you said seven.

Caldera, number seven.

Caldera.

Seven.

Yep.

Caldera, seven.

Got it.

Okay.

Yep.

Yeah.

Really solid shoe.

But one of my favorite all around trail shoes right now is the Brooks catamount three.

Very similar colorway, this one, but the catamount series right away, like in 2020, I believe it was, or 2021, right around in there.

They were one of the first to bring a nitrogen infused foam to the trail.

They might have been the first.

And so they were taking their ideas from their road running lines, the Hyperion line, which is where their kind of elite level shoes lie.

And they brought that to the trail.

So it's just highly reactive midsole.

It's lower to the ground, so there's a lot of control.

It's really kind of that mid range of stack height, but also it fits really nicely, like we were saying, brooks just has it.

When it comes to overall fit, it.

Looks like a sporty shoe.

Yeah, it is very sporty.

It's one of my favorites just to put on for an everyday run.

But also, if I'm going fast, like, this is light enough, versatile enough.

It feels really good.

But also, they.

They came, their last two versions have the sky vault plate.

Okay.

Which it's not.

It's not a carbon plate, it's a plastic material.

But it does help with some propulsion because this does have that.

That unique curve at the forefoot that we're seeing in a lot of running shoes.

Yeah.

So it helps with propulsion a lot on the uphill, but it also helps with just a really dynamic stability.

We're not putting posts on the inside to make it stable for people anymore, and that's great, I should say most shoes aren't.

Some are but it's really quite stable, quite dynamic, and just a fun shoe to run in.

It's one of, I think all of our reviewers who are on this particular shoe, it was, like, unanimous.

This is just a great all around shoe.

Some of our reviewers choose it for racing, like, fifty k to fifty miles.

But, yeah, it's just, wow, a good shoe, but it goes under the radar because of Brooks current temp in the market.

Yeah.

So, okay.

On that one, I'm trying to.

I think I can see it well enough.

Like, there's, like, a little black mark on the sole or.

Sorry, on the.

On the foam that's facing me.

That little line.

Is that like.

Is that the.

Yes.

Okay.

That's the skyval.

I felt that on a bunch of shoes, and I was there the other day, and I was trying to figure out, is that car.

Is that a carbon plate?

But that's.

That's something that's carbon plate like, but not actually a carbon plate.

It's something that gives you energy to run.

Yeah.

And that's the idea.

It's gonna give you a little energy, but that's best application is just dynamic stability.

Got it.

Okay.

And so.

And, like, for this particular shoe, a lot of shoes, you might be able to see, like, a carbon plate, the plates coming out of it.

Let's see if I can grab this.

Well on the vector, I think.

Okay.

Yeah.

The vectiv and the tectonics three, like, the carbon plates coming out of it.

Here's the modern vectiv plates are coming out of it, but that's just aesthetics.

On.

Okay.

On the sky vault here, it's more embedded, and so they.

They just put that on there so they can tag their sky vault.

But it's.

But it's in there, and it works.

And like I said, it's just a shoe.

Like, if someone's coming to me and asking for a do it all shoe, one that I could race in, one that I could run my everyday, the catamount three would be definitely one of my favorites.

It's.

Wow.

We're coming to our year end reviews, and this is at the top of a lot of people's list.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

What's funny is when I'm out looking at shoes, and I was going through all the Brooks shoes, and they had their.

Their road shoes, and I'm guessing it's their super shoe.

You would.

You would know the name.

You might have already said it is.

It's hyperion elite.

Yeah.

And the foam looks absurd on it.

I don't even.

We can save that for another discussion.

But my point is, is that now you've got me looking at the solo shoes, especially after the vective, and seeing that sort of curve up.

And.

And so I just kind of.

I just touched it like, like briefly, like wanting to feel something, and I take my hand away and it's like a seesaw.

It's just like, yeah.

On that rocker, just going, it's so light, such a beautiful shoe, but it just like a.

Yeah.

Seesawing back and forth.

Yeah.

And see that that shoe itself is such a good example of what we've been talking about with Brooks.

They're in their fifth iteration and now it's becoming a viable option for road running where it wasn't even.

We kind of will give tears to different shoes.

And it wasn't even in the b tier for years.

And maybe now it's in approaching that b tier for racing, maybe b plus.

But, man, it was, it just wasn't, with all the other options, it just wasn't considered.

I see.

Not that it wasn't a fun shoe or a good shoe, but when you're talking about racing and picking for race day.

Yeah.

Not part of the conversation.

So it sounds like with that shoe, it's the opposite of what I was saying earlier.

With some of their trail technology that's been around for a long time and they're not gonna iterate every year, but because they're trying to keep up right now and sales of it aren't probably meeting expectations or, you know, selling the minimums that they need to to make it a viable shoe, they're innovating year over year.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I, I think it's.

Their sales were more of a lack of innovation because they held on to something for too long.

They held on to it for too long with the ever changing market.

And, and that's where, like, I think if we're going to talk about Brooks getting back into the limelight of running at all besides your brick and mortar stores, that's schlepping all the ghosts.

Like, they, their marketing team needs to be a little more responsive, in my opinion, and, like, trying to get ahead of some of these curves.

And, like, they have the power to be really innovative.

They have the technology, like, let's just see it.

Let's have fun with it.

And there are a few shoes like the Brooks Caldera six, the iteration before I just showed you.

I was like, yes, we're finally getting somewhere.

They brought this new version of this foam to the trails.

And they only had it in this concept shoe basically on the roadside.

So, like, let's keep that going.

But then it was three years until we had the next iteration with the same foam that they had.

So it's just.

Yeah, yeah.

It's just like, keep.

Keep going.

You're there.

Just.

They need this constant feeling with them in this conversation.

I was hoping to get clarity from this conversation.

It's actually the inverse we're getting.

Like, it's.

It's more true than ever.

It's like, there's this.

It's like this tension competing between.

This is a boring brand and, my goodness, this is an interesting brand.

Like, it doesn't make me say anything in the middle.

It's like, oh, well, that's boring.

They're doing that still, or it's like, oh, my God, that's incredible.

That's so cool.

Like, their sales and, you know, like, there's all, like, what you're saying about the ghost.

There's so many things that make you think, oh, my God, what a.

What a brand.

What a special legacy brand.

Yeah.

Then every once in a while, it's like, and we'll just drop this in here and say, look at this.

Look how boring this brand is.

Mm hmm.

Not you.

My wife.

Yes.

No, I mean.

I mean, you kind of hit it of in the modern market where we need.

I shouldn't say we.

I'm getting it all the time, but, and I was one of the people who, like, we talked about Solomon.

I was getting the sense ride was my shoe, and I was.

I had two.

When I started reviewing, I had two shoes that I kept going back to.

I had the ASICs DS trainer and the Solomon sense ride, and I was going to stick with those.

So that formula for Brooks is really working out, but there's just so much more.

There's so much more opportunity for them to maintain that but then also have this other fun category and be pushing innovation like they had at the beginning of, like, way back in the 1920s.

They were building.

They were making baseball and football shoes.

Yeah.

And so they.

Yeah.

And so innovating there, like, let's continue some of that from a run specific company.

Now.

That's all they do.

They're a running company, but they're not at the leading edge.

Yeah.

Do you have a cascadia on YouTube?

I don't have a Cascadia.

We just did have a couple reviewers finish a review on that a couple months ago.

We do have a review else.

Yeah.

Okay, good.

So you can.

And they still have, like, they have the Cascadia and they got decent reviews.

Like, pretty good.

Yeah.

Again, they would put it in the category of, like, light daily running, hiking in that category.

Then they also have, like, a gore Tex version if you need to get out in the weather.

And again, I feel like we keep pendling from this, like, yeah, kind of boring feeling of Brooks and then, like, oh, hey, they also have this, and I have one more shoe.

Oh, one more shoe.

What is that?

So this, yeah, this is, like, one of my favorite shoes across all categories this year.

So this is called the Brooks catamount, a geelong.

Okay.

And so this is kind of taken the light and fast very seriously.

It would come into that s lab.

Gosh, that looks like an s lab.

You know, there's so much s lab ness about it.

It's that f, one vibe of, like, minimalist to a degree, but, like, looks fast.

Oh, yeah, it's fast.

It's fun.

It's everything you want.

You think a Brooks shoe should have of, like, yeah, they have all the resources.

This is a good example that they can put together something that's incredibly performing, unique looking.

It's really intriguing and modern.

So this is the Brooks catamount.

Ejeel.

It has, you know, it has the grip.

They're really good grip.

It has this really unique, completely integrated upper that fits like a sock.

And so this is meant for race day.

Short, fast, golden trail series type race day.

I'm speaking my love language now.

Yes.

And so, but what they did, that's different than most others in the market.

When they come out with a really light, low stack shoe like this, they gave it their modern foam, and that's what makes this shoe special among the masses when it comes to this category of like, yeah, they, they took their modern foam.

Their nitrogen infused foam is the DNA flash that you would see in their elite marathon racing shoe.

And so that gives it some character that they haven't had in a lot of shoes but also has that sky vault plate that was in the catamount.

So it's super dynamic, super light, fits really well.

And so for a short distance ratio where something like Solomon's slab scent wouldn't work for most people because of how slim it is and how kind of unstable it was, if, like, even if you're a heavier runner, it would feel different than a lighter runner.

But this shoe is going to be a great low stack, fast trail runner for a lot of people because the fit is going to be broader, that Brooks fit that they've been able to nail for years and years and years and just.

Yeah, like, this is just a very modern take on a light and fast trail shoe.

And, like, I think that's a good example of what Brooks, you're capable.

You're capable.

You're there.

Now let's see this.

Let's see this.

Come out again next year with a little more.

And the next year was maybe a bigger update, like, don't miss the boat on some of these things.

Yeah.

To be honest, when you held that shoe up, my first thought was like, that's not a Brook shoe.

So in my mind, there's a.

There's an aesthetic.

Whether I like it or not, there's an aesthetic that they have, and that feels outside of it.

So it feels like, is there someone inside Brooks right now?

That's kind of like throwing some elbows, like, hey, come on, like, let's do something.

Let me do this.

And they must be highly respected in the organization, and this person, guy, guy or gal got to put this shoe out.

You know, it just feels so other than everything else.

Everything else feels connected from a design language standpoint, that one.

Then all of a sudden, there's this thing.

Yep.

And last year, I think it was.

Yeah, last year, 2023, they revitalized their trail design team and road design team.

So hopefully we're gonna be seeing the effects of that and more stuff like this, because it's great and.

Yeah, like, there's no reason they shouldn't be putting out stuff like this.

Yeah.

So when.

When you pulled the hoka off the shelf earlier, it had that sock on it, and I almost asked you about it, and I was like, no, I'll save that for Hoka.

But since that one kind of has that on there, is that to replace a gator?

Is that.

Is that the function of it?

Is the purpose of it to keep stuff from coming in the shoe?

Is that why that's there on this one in particular?

Not exactly.

It does help in that sense a little bit, but what it is giving you is just giving you, there's no other materials or layers to mess with when you're cinching down the shoe, so it's giving you, like, the sock, like, feel, like, literally.

So stepping into some sort of booty is just going to give less, less to mess around with.

And so what they did really well was that they have structure back here, which, when we get to hoka, I'll tell you otherwise.

Yeah.

Like, there's structure to support the rest of the shoe, and so and so.

And the sock is.

It's a little more tenacious than most other sock, like, uppers out there even.

And then they integrated it into this really highly engineered mesh.

And so, yeah, they pulled together a lot of great technologies into a shoe.

Phenomenal performance.

It's the best one in this category for this year.

Like, this spoil alert is going to be the top in my category for technical trail running.

Wow.

Yeah.

Again, like Brooks.

You got it.

Let's go.

More.

More, please.

More.

Give me more.

Well, here's, here's an interesting, you know, thing to wind down on our mutual friend.

And I think probably, I mean, for me, it's through Instagram, and maybe for you it's just through Instagram or, you know, through the trail reviewing or reviewing world.

But Cody Jett sent a message and said, you know, what's it going to.

Hey, I want to hear what you guys think about what's it going to take for Brooks to be more of a player in trail.

I thought that was just a fun question.

I don't know exactly how he meant it, but I took it as like, hey, what could, what could they do to be more of a.

To rise up, like, to go up the ladder to become more, you know, let's say, just practically increase their shoe count at western states or increase their shoe count at UTMB.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, totally.

What do you think that they could do?

And then I'll give mine.

Mine's going to be probably more of a marketing angle.

Yours might be more of a technology or shoe performance thing, but I don't want to box you in.

What do you think they could do?

No, I think they're on the road to some of that.

Like, yes, they do need to continually hit home and use the technologies that they have readily available to them to just continue to innovate.

So that's gonna be.

That's gonna be what's intriguing.

New runners, old runners of the day, like, use your heritage, but also use your resources to continually innovate.

So that's one perspective.

Yeah.

And another perspective is, like, the team that's out there, that's visible for you.

You really need to capitalize on them.

There's great stories within, within, like, just the trail team itself.

I'm just bringing it up right here so I don't miss anybody.

Like, these are some of the runners.

Like, one of my favorite runners, Mario Mendoza.

Yeah.

Dan Kurtz, Hillary Allen, Joe McConaughey.

Like, what?

Camellia Mayfield.

All these people.

Yeah.

Kat Bradley, Kimber Maddox.

So you have people from, wow, from great generations.

And that's not even mentioning Scott Jericho in there, right?

Yeah.

And so you have all of these great stories, and then like two of the hottest trail runners right now in the golden trail series, we have Anna Gibson and Mika.

I don't even know how to say his last name, but Mika, that's all you need to say if you're a fan.

It's like Madonna.

Mika.

Yeah.

They have the athletes capitalize on your athlete team market with them, give them the tools they need to do really great on these big, on the big stage.

And so from just a trail running gear and team perspective, I think they could capitalize on those better and better and better each year.

Yeah.

Well, I think so.

Here's the deal.

I say this a lot.

I need to look down at my feet and be stoked like the, because I'm just an average everyday runner, I'm not running for the podium.

Performance is important to me.

It's not the most important thing to me, though.

If I'm going to spend $150 on a shoe, up to $250 on a shoe, I have to look down and love the way my feet look like that is a non negotiable.

And anybody who says otherwise, I just, unless they're running for place and they're running for time, I get it.

Then you just want performance.

Give me the check, the box.

I need this thing, this thing, this thing.

If you're just kind of middle, back of the pack, if you're finishing zion hundred miler, that's 36 hours cutoff.

If you're finishing at 35 and a half hours, like one of the two of us have done recently, I won't say who.

Then I want to look down and love the way my feet look.

That design is just, design just matters.

And when I look down at my feet with Brooks, I'm not, I'm not blown away.

And that to me is, I think, mission critical.

They've got to be, they've got, it's got to transfer really well to photos.

It just has to totally.

And I think that's how you get at least more like shareability within it.

And then, like you're saying this team, the team is stacked.

It feels like they've, and I'm not saying this is separate from how Brooks treats their runners.

So they may treat them like a million bucks.

I'm not commenting on that.

I have no idea.

But to your point, it's an asset of theirs that they have, that they're investing in, that they're not maximizing the return on that investment.

Absolutely.

Because most of those names that you just said, like, I don't, you know, from, whether it be storytelling or, you know, fill in the blank, those are some really, you know, meaningful people in the community that are wearing Brooks.

And even now that you say that, it's like, oh, that gives it even more credibility.

So just to, they rise up to me with good design and better storytelling, it sounds like the technology is there.

That's like, okay, obvious that it's there.

So take, take those existing things and tell the story better.

Absolutely.

And also, to your point of, like, you want to look good, you want to feel good.

And so that's where, again, I think they've just, they've kind of bought the ticket for the time, but miss the ride on some of the stuff because they just, they have all the resources.

Again, I'm just going to keep hitting this.

They have all the resources.

They have the foams, they have the technologies, but once the market innovates or shifts a little, they're still there.

And so you can, in a, even in the trail running market where you can purchase for any sensation you want.

Hmm.

They are pretty unilateral in that sense of.

What do you mean by that?

So, like, if I want soft, responsive, I can find a shoe that has that.

If I want low to the ground, wide toe box, there's a shoe for that and everywhere in between.

And so that's the market we're in.

That's the market you can play with.

So play with it.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, yeah.

I think you want to look good.

You got to feel good.

Yeah.

And so if you can, they have the opportunity and the resources to do both of those.

Yeah.

And they're showing it in some examples, but bring it across the board.

Yeah, well, I could talk about this all day because this, we're like, we're at this intersection of, you know, I love talking about business and, like, viability of this and then talking about shoes design, speculating on what they could do to grow in the marketing aspect and then the form and, like, the, where the form meets the function and understanding the function.

This is just a blast of a conversation.

So I can't wait to do this again with you.

And there's so many brands that we could do.

We got a long list of back and forth.

Eventually, we're going to pivot from heritage to, like, the modern brand and, you know, do the deep dive on some of the current favorites from Speedland, Norda, maybe, to normal.

And, and I think normal's got an interesting story in their connection with camper, and there's just so many stories to be told about shoes and stuff to learn.

I'm excited to do this with you again.

Thanks for joining me.

Yeah, thank you, Josh.

Really appreciate it.