This is More Than Work, the podcast reminding you that your self-worth

is made up of more than your job title.

Each week I'll talk to a guest about how they discovered that for themselves.

You'll hear about what they did, what they're doing, and who they are.

I'm your host, Rabiah.

I work in IT, perform standup comedy, write, volunteer, and of course, podcast.

Thank you for listening.

Here we go.

Hey everyone, so today my guest is Christopher Kenna.

He is founder and CEO North America at Brand Advance Group.

And we met because we were both speaking at at an event here in London.

But thanks for being on More Than Work, Chris.

Christopher Kenna:

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, I'm really, I'm really excited we get to talk cause I think

I really enjoyed your speech a lot.

I've told you that before, but first of all, where am I chatting to you from?

I'm in London at the moment.

I know you've just announced me as like CEO North America and

then like, oh, I'm in London.

But I'm going back, I'm on a flight tomorrow back to New York, so, I'm

normally based out there, but Yeah.

In England, London.

And your company.

Cool.

And your company's in both.

So we we're in different places all the world across,

across Europe and in North America and in India as well, so, we're quite

spread out and, and growing, which is always good for a company, I suppose.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, that, well that is good.

I mean, that's what you want, but I know it can be a lot for someone who's

leading the company, that's for sure.

Yeah, 100%.

It's it's fantastic and horrible and fantastic and horrible all in one day.

Yeah, exactly.

So I guess the first thing I just I was very, I would say both intrigued

and inspired by your story like that I heard when, when we met and

we both were sharing very personal things at that event actually.

I certainly was talking about things I don't normally talk about,

and I think you were talked about things like very bluntly too.

But the result is you now, you know, having the Brand Advance Group.

Why don't we just start from like, earlier in your life maybe, kind of how you grew

up and what shaped you caring about what you care about now, which is I think

DEI, which is very important and, but inclusion of a lot of different people.

yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, you know, a childhood that was, there never was a bad childhood.

It was good but seeing me doing spells in different children's

homes and stuff like that as well.

And then joining the Army when I was young.

Being in the Army for just 10 years.

Having two kids within that time with my ex now ex-wife.

And you know, both kids as well.

One is white and one is mixed race, you know, so seeing life Jerome and his

sister seeing life treat them different.

Having the unprivilege of myself being black, coming from council

estate background, being in care, just made me see the world a little bit

different maybe from other people.

And then, you know, skip forwards to now being in advertising I couldn't

understand why we still get checked different as consumers are different,

self-important due to race, religion, sexual orientation, different abilities.

How often I would see someone that looks like me or my son on a screen in a TV

ad compared to how often I would see someone that looked like my blonde, dead

blue eyed daughter, which was very often, you know, So, yeah, it's, that's really

that, that that inequality within this industry is what spared brand advance.

I basically built the company to make people see more of my son to,

to to see more of their sons, to see more, of everyone's sons, daughter

and non-binary kids from different communities to make sure that

advertising is just done correctly.

You know, it's I know there's a lot of buzzwords like DEI and culture

marketing and responsible media and whatever else, acronyms that are chucked

in between them as well, you know?

Cause our industry really loves an acronym.

It's They do, don't they?

The it, it just, all of that actually is just marketing, you know.

You're either doing marketing well, you're including everyone that can

possibly.\ Buy your product or you're not.

You're excluding some because you're not buying their media.

You're excluding some because you're not showing them in your ads.

You're excluding some with keyword block list and calling it brand safety.

\ it started with me and that problem I am gonna try to do my bit to sort this out

so that my kids can be equal by media and advertising and then it's spread out,

you know, we have a fantastic CEO here in Europe, now I'm in New York over there

leading the North American operations.

And there's lots of fantastic people from these communities whether it's

communities related to their race, their religion, their sexual orientation,

their different abilities, their, their whatever, that might be their gender.

We're an ever-growing group of people.

A growing group of bad asses, let's say what it really is.

I'm not calling myself a badass, that would be a little bit cocky,

but saying the rest of the team are.

But just to try to make a, make it do it different.

Show clients that you can, you can do a marketing campaign that has a black

family in it and stick it in black media or on TV that's owned and operated by

people from that community, you know?

And not only are you gonna get more consumers and grow your branding and

sell more products, but actually you are also gonna help that community.

A black old brand feeds black babies.

You know, like, that's like, that's the, the truth of it.

Or we, or we can understand people better, you know, pe people that

have a different abilities that might not function the same as you.

The only reason you can fear it is because you don't understand it.

Where advertising can bring that to the forefront, make it not a difference,

but just a different ability rather than an actual full-on blow difference,

that person, you know, and using.

I don't like, you'll notice, I don't like words like disability.

I think it sounds negative from the beginning.

You know, it's a different ability, just different.

So yeah, that's, that's what we're about.

That's where the fire came from, from myself and, and I'm, really fortunate to

have people come on the journey with us.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think it, what was interesting in, in listening to talk and, and listening

to talk now of course too, is just that I guess I grew up in a, you know,

I'm, I'm white, so that's pretty clear.

I mean, I

Maybe not on podcast.

It's not.

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah.

Sometimes it's not even clear I'm a woman on a podcast, my voice is a little

deep, but but also like I, you know, I'm, I'm actually half Lebanese, but I

don't look, I look well, I mean, some Lebanese people look like me, I guess,

but I don't look different to that.

So I always saw people like me on tv, right.

More or less.

And I think what's interesting is like, I'll hear people say, they'll

call out now especially with like the LGBTQ+ community and stuff like

why are the, why does, do you always have to see these people in ads now?

Like that's what I've heard some people say, and then, yeah, if you see people

of color, if they're black people or other people, you know, or interracial

mixed race couples, some people will comment on that like, cuz that's,

they are, they're like afraid of it.

It's not their world or whatever.

But you're saying it is important because someone's seeing themself

on TV or wherever they're seeing them and I totally agree.

Can you talk a little bit about what the impact is of not seeing that?

Because you definitely didn't probably see that as a kid.,

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, as with anybody or anything, you can't be what you can't see.

If all that is pumped out into the world around you is a negative connotation of

you, me, as a black man, me as a person from a certain socioeconomic group,

me as a person from care, you know, and the impacts of that still last now.

I was literally talking about it earlier, actually.

I have privilege now.

I will for forever have the unprivileged in some people's eyes.

To me it's an absolute superpower.

And I love, I love the tone of my skin, but that's me.

I love it.

You know, and my kids and the people around me that I work, you know, with

their beautiful beautifulness from their culture and what you can see.

But for others or two others, the color of my skin is an unprivilege for me, cuz

of the way that they will treat me because of the preconceptions they will have the

second that I walk into a room, you know.

It still happens now.

I'm a privileged guy.

I, you know, run in an international company.

I live in New York and in Canary Wharf in the UK have an apartment

that's very high up in a skyscraper.

But every time I get in the bloody lift to go up to my very nice apartment at

the top of the skyscraper, if somebody stood next to me, they will move their

bag to the other side of their body.

Happens all the bloody time.

Do you know what I mean?

Still happens now, even with all my privilege that I pulled up in an Audi R8.

I'm really blowing smoke up my backside here, but I'm setting the picture.

I always wanted one, and then I got one.

The but you know, even with all that, you know, and then, and then I've

got my son, Kira, I do not have to have these conversations with Kira

or, and, and people, that have the, the privilege of having different

children that look different as well.

There's one thing, a conversation that nobody, that Kira's mom will never have

to have have with Kira is, you know, the unprivilege of her being white.

With Jerome, he's just turned 18, you know, and I've had the conversation a few

times with him now, which is even with all this privilege that your dad's gonna pass

on; you'll have money, we'll be able to get you a house, you'll be able to get a

car, and you've got a job if you want one.

Or I could definitely help you to, to fund your further education so that

you can go and do whatever you want.

You'll have nice clothes and you'll be able to go nice places.

Even with all that privilege son, you're still a black man.

So if the police pull you, you shut up.

If you're in the US you stick your hands on the car and you don't move

until they tell you you can move.

If you're in the UK, it doesn't matter who, which friends are around

you, they are gonna speak to you.

You know, especially if you're with your white friends, it's just gonna happen.

You will get stopped and searched at some point.

You will get in lifts and people will move their bags.

You will go to Selfridges and you might have more money than all of

your friends put together, but they will follow you around the shop.

I think the impact, people that don't live it will never

understand it and don't dunno.

Do we need them to understand it?

Not really.

But do we need everybody to do their bit?

Whether you're a media planner, whether you're a creative director or

a casting director for adverts, whether you're, you know, whether you work

anywhere, in any sphere, not just the one I work in, the industry I work in.

We just need everybody to do that bit, you know?

And that's what we, that's what we do.

We help, we do our bit.

We help clients do their bit.

And so anybody that says, oh, we're seeing too many LGBTQ+ plus people on,

in ads like you said, you know, then I would say to them, when was the last

time that they were going on holiday and they had to check whether they could be

killed or locked up if they go to that?

Mm

When was the last time that they had to feel when

they left their house that if you walked too close to your partner,

you could be beat up or even killed?

You know, there are 25 million transgender people in the world.

They are in some places, unfortunately, like Brazil and Argentina, transgender

people are killed every day on the street.

Just, just because they felt trapped in a different body.

You might say this, oh, there's too, too many people.

Or do you remember that Sainsbury ad that had the black family at Christmas

and Twitter blew up with people going, why don't they have a normal

family instead of a black family?

I'm sorry.

Who are, you know, the, the, the thousands of people that wrote that

on, have they worked in this country?

Have they worked?

Like the census has just come out and it's just told us, Leicester minority white.

Birmingham, minority white.

London, 300 languages, and, and you know, different ethnicities.

Where are you looking if you think of black family is not a normal family?

And the fact that this, this still is written on Twitter means that we need

more brands to put these families on tv.

There's not too much, there can never be too much happiness on your screen.

There can never be too much light pumping through adverts into your living room.

That's not possible.

And you can never learn too much about different cultures.

And if advertising can bring that, they can bring that light, bring them

communities and help us learn, then, by all means, keep pumping them out.

Keep keep putting these people in people's living rooms.

And the ones that really don't like it, or think it's too much

or think it's just disgusting.

Turn off your telly.

You save some electricity, actually, and save the world.

So turn it off.

Don't look.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I agree.

And it's, it's really, I don't know, it fascinates me, and especially over here.

So I'm American.

I live in London, and I think in America, we thought our racism was special in a

way, and like, oh, they don't have that.

But no, it's here too, for

sure.

And it's, it's almost in a, it's in a different way because the people

are more passive, quite honestly.

So they're just like Brexit.

I mean, probably don't wanna get too much into that, but that didn't really, you

know, serve whatever purpose that they were pretending it was.

It was really, just to kind of, I don't know, get, get people

some people out, you know?

I think it's good to have people like you who are trying to do

something to help change it.

And part of that's probably educating.

And I have a couple questions just around either thoughts I've had or

thoughts I've read or something.

Like the whole the whole idea of "washing", like, so there's eco washing

of course, but there's also like, I don't know what the right term is,

but like during Pride month, they'll wash everything with a rainbow.

And then maybe during Black History month, right, they'll every, oh, all of

a sudden it's like, even like, it was just, Martin Luther King Junior Day,

I think this past week, and Oh, let's have a, you know, let's have a sale.

Like, cuz that was the whole point, right?

The civil rights leader is murdered, let's have a sale on furniture, right?

I just want to talk to you a little bit about that, but I don't know the exact

question I'm wanna ask, but just like maybe what's the difference between what

brands do when they're doing it in a positive way versus doing it in that way?

Do you know?

I have a double answer.

So, yes, there is Pinkwashing.

Yes, it was Martin Luther King Day and you know, a furniture sale

being pushed on the Martin Luther King, Martin Luther King Day.

It's just like, eh, but I, I would say brands that are just showing up in

these cultural moments, let's call them.

I don't want them to not show up.

So, you know, I'm not gonna spend the next 10 minutes bashing exam

because I would prefer them to show up one day if the than none at all.

I.

But if they want authenticity, if they are going to stick anywhere in their

csr, whether they're gonna announce it on the news or in the literature

they give to their to their employees that they want to be authentic,

then you gotta keep showing up.

You can't just come at Pride, you know, because gay or lesbian, I transgender

people, they don't, they're not just that way for a week or a month.

It is their life.

They were born that way.

It is, you know, this black doesn't wash off.

So Black History Month does not, it's not just for, you know, and I,

I have the, it's a privilege to be now out gay, black guy, you know?

and, and I've had the ultimate privilege of sort of two lives, you know, one

married with my kids and you know, my, my ex-husband is a really good friend.

I love it a bit so as well, you know, and we're really close and

we have a good relationship, right.

You know, Why not you evolve, you know?

And so yeah, I think if you want to be authentic authenticity,

you cannot hire authenticity.

You cannot buy it.

There's no PR company that can give you it.

And there's no stunt that makes you authentic.

It's just showing up day after day, week after week, year after year, and

saying, we are here and we are, we support, and that might be by buying L

G B T media throughout the year, as well as doing your, your pride cake sale in

your office, or do you know what I mean?

Or, or, or by allowing your staff to go on some of the marches in

their local areas or, or just by.

Depicting if you're an ad agency, by making sure that there is options

for some clients should, they want to be able to make lgbtq plus ads.

Tell the stories that your staff feel welcome each day and, and don't,

you know, feel that they have to go in the closet to come to work.

All of these things.

But authenticity just comes from keep doing it over and over.

So if you are just turning up on pride, that's great and we, we, we

love to see you there, but please don't use the word authentic.

You're not doing anything authentic for the community.

That word, you've gotta earn that word.

You've got to work for that, that, that comes when you're

doing something more than showing up on the great day, you know?

Yeah,

Do go to Manchester or London Pride, cuz they are awesome.

Obviously you can tell by my accent I'm from up north, so

Manchester is better for me.

But London's good.

And then New York is just bonkers, massive.

But yeah, that's my thoughts on that.

You know, I I would never say don't do a lot of it.

There will be people who that listening to this and like, yeah, but what about when

a company is crap with their employees, but then they changed their, their logo?

You know, that's what I'm talking about.

Where they need to uh, sort their shit.

You know, they've gotta sort themselves out.

How dare you change it, you know?

You sort of as well need to make sure that you're looking

internally and asking your staff.

You don't need to out them,.

They don't need to educate you.

That is not their job.

They were employed to do something that wasn't what you said to them

when you were interviewing them.

So don't make them add that.

That's not their job, but should they want to give you that information, you need

to make sure that they think that you're a good company to work for as an LGBTQ

plus person or as a black person before you can start coming after our money.

Do you know what I mean?

And you know, the billions that is the black power, the billions that there's

the pink pound or the purple pound or whatever names have been given to it.

So yeah, I'm not against people pink washing, but I certainly

think they need to do more.

You know, the day of the passive ally has gone.

Now we need advocates.

Allyship was nice earlier on when this was a delicate subject and we

didn't quite know how to tackle it.

My God, are we passed that now, you know, brothers, sisters and non-binary

and transgender people are dying in the streets whether they're being shot

by police or, or whatever, you know, we now need to make society better

cause there's wars of fires and big waves that wash away whole cities.

We need to make sure that in between these natural things we can't control that we

look after each other, that we understand each other, that we have empathy and

compassion and move the world forward.

And we not, don't just look after our own kids, but we look after each other's kids.

Not necessarily drop them off at my house.

Cause I cannot look after anybody's kids apart from my own.

Definitely not.

I only just got through the looking after mine.

But, you know what I mean.

I mean, metaphorically looking after make, keeping the world here for everybody,

making sure that they're understood.

And so yeah, all of that, you can start with yes, changing your, your

logo to a pride flag, but then doing more through the year, remembering

and and making sure that that is part of the fabric of who you are.

And then by all means, take on many, you know, call yourself a great place to

work and let's march together at Pride.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I agree.

And, and also I, I really like what you said about not putting the burden

on the people who are whatever it is that you're trying to work on.

Because I saw that after the death of George Floyd.

I mean, that was a big thing, like a big catalyst for a lot of change.

But I think it was also very exposing to people about what needed to be

changed and when you had one or two black people in a company, all of a

sudden the burden was on them to tell everybody what to do and that's not fair.

Like they're in pain.

So you wouldn't go to someone who's in some other kind of

pain and tell them to help you.

You would help them, right?

As a person who didn't realize how ineffective they were, I was a very

passive ally, like in a lot of ways, I would say, especially around, maybe around

race, not so much around around sexuality.

And it was like hard too.

Cause you had to look at yourself and say, "Hey, I'm not really doing

anything just by not, not using certain language that's really bad is what I

thought was being such a good, you know?

And so I think it's really great that you're willing to even answer my

questions right now about something that, you know, like, maybe I

should know , you know what I mean?

But I think it helps to, to do that.

And I think people do get fooled by what's going on at companies and think, oh, that

company's doing this, but it's also, yeah, like there's one black person working

there that actually feels like they're the only black person working there.

Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

yeah.

Totally agree.

And, you know, one thing I say as well is that we are, we have to look after...

we're, we're asking a lot of people at the moment.

Yes, conversations are being had.

Things that we didn't speak about as a society after the murder of George Floyd,

after, you know, same sex rights have been brought forward, but some things

have been, you know, like abortion in the US has been repealed and so on.

You know, things like that.

And people are speaking up more, but there is a toll to that.

It's heavy.

It's heavy on black men and black women.

It's heavy, you know, on non-binary and transgender from the same communities.

It's heavy.

It's heavy on the LGBTQ plus employees that have to rally everybody and fight for

a little bit of money from the company.

It's heavy because everybody's asking to be educated, which is fantastic.

But it's also, it's not anybody's job.

I know very few of us, you know, I can't speak on this because I do essentially.

I am paid to educate because our company benefits from

reeducated within our industry.

But there are many that are asked to educate and they don't get paid for it.

They have to go home, you know, and, and face the same struggles every

day when they won't leave the house.

But as you said yourself, the subtlety of racism in this country.

Racism in this country's done with a smile and sometimes quite a posh accent.

Do you know what I mean?

Which makes, which means it's not actually racism because it's a smile

and it's a posh accent, you know, or it's done with a subtlety or,

because things were always that way.

That's the worst thing that I hear.

It infuriates me.

Oh, it's always been like that.

Okay.

Well, we also colonized the world and we gave it back.

So maybe we can change other stuff as well.

We've still got a few more to, to apologize for, I'm sure.

But the, the, yeah, I think it's a heavy toll.

I, I've had to look after myself recently.

I've went through, went through periods where I didn't realize that I was becoming

not just an ineffective, well, I wasn't actually a leader, cuz I don't think

I could qualify myself as a leader...

an ineffective boss, you know, when I should have been a leader, when

I should have been there with the empathy and the time for my team.

But I didn't because I was standing on stages all over the world, speaking,

reliving trauma, not knowing that it, by just talking about it, you're

taking yourself back there and you're doing that three, four times a week.

And it might bring new clients to the company, but actually

what's it doing into yourself?

You suppress these things.

Yes, you were mad and, and then you have an accident in the army

and you had to well it's not really an accident, I suppose.

Bombs going off in the army is actually what, that's the one

place it's meant to happen.

But, you know, being caught up in stuff like that and then telling your, your

wife or your wife at the time that you think he might be gay or, or bisexual

or whatever label anybody wants to put on it, you know, things like that.

It just, they're life.

And they happened.

The fact I was in, I went into different care homes that happened.

But you, you don't spend your life talking about it because you, you let it go.

You, you move on, you live with it.

What's happened recently is everybody has been asked to, to educate by telling

and the, the, the easiest and the faster.

And the only way as not a trained educator that you know, to do that is to give life

stories, is to give a piece of yourself to say, this is, this is my lived experience.

This is where I've been.

Maybe you can take something from that.

But by doing that, you're taking yourself back there.

You're, you're re-traumatizing yourself every bloody day.

And then you, other things start failing around you and you're not

quite as, as zen as you were.

And, and it's really hard.

It's even hard talking about it now.

Cause like, you don't even realize how much is being asked.

So anybody, that's what listening to this, you know, just make sure you're

looking after yourself cause it's great and you know, and then I have

to caveat that with, I keep, I said about being an ally and an advocate.

Yes, we do need more advocates, but I also need anybody that's an

ally, an advocate, or a person that gives themselves, like we both do.

You did on stage, you do in your comedy.

I do on stage.

We just gotta make sure we look after ourselves and each other

as well cuz the world's asking a lot of, all of us at the moment.

It's given us viruses that make us not allowed to leave our house, whilst also

asking us to educate the world you know, whilst asking us to change our ways,

whilst asking us to save the world.

There's a lot.

It's a lot.

And it, yeah, you just gotta look after, everybody's gotta look

after themselves and each other, and we just gotta keep going.

Yeah.

And people joke about self-care and things like that, but some of

it's just even giving yourself like Chris, like you're talking about

that time to almost like recover from giving those speeches and stuff.

And I, I, yeah, we had, we both just for people who don't know, I talked about

having Multiple Sclerosis and, and having to be on an account at work that was

directly impacting people with MS, but ignoring the whole accessibility side

of a website for people who would need those features and how that was really

annoying, but also talking about it.

Yeah.

It's not something I do every day, so I had to kind of step away from it cuz I, I

try not to live like with that every day.

And which is a privilege too, cuz some people with MS have it very much more

present than me where I'll just fall down every couple weeks and then I'm like,

oh yeah, that's still there isn't it?

And for you, like continually to tell your story because when we experienced

the things, like when I experienced my diagnosis and you experienced care homes,

completely different things by the way.

But they're our own, our own, that we have, there is some kind of

thing that happens during that time.

Whether it's support or whether it's just kind of maybe meeting other people

in your situation or whatever it is.

But when you're just out there telling your story later on that's not there and

it's such a fact and, and then people will maybe apologize to you for it somehow.

Or say there's, you know, I'm sorry you went through that.

Or if I talk about certain people, like in my life, like other parts that,

that died or something like that, then it's like, oh, I'm sorry that happened.

It's like, well, that's okay.

I've moved on.

But then you go like, oh, and I just talked about it and

I'm gonna feel that later.

And so you're right.

Like you have to give yourself space somewhere to, to deal with that.

And the people asking you to talk about it, even me, like, you know, need to

know that too and, and make sure that it's for the right reason in a way.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you know, I've went through a few years as you, when you're building

a company as well, and all of the entrepreneurs that are watching

this or listening will know that, you have this thing where you don't

know when's the next time somebody's gonna ask you to do something or

if they will ever ask you again.

So, you know, every moment is a chance to talk about your business, talk about

what you do, let people know you exist.

Maybe they'll buy something.

Maybe someone listening to this will, will say, oh, Brand Advance, go on our website.

Come through, come on out, come speak to us.

You know?

So you're saying yes to a lot of things and especially me, I'm very, yes.

I, I want to, you know, I have, I have a great privilege at the moment where people

want to hear what I've got to say, and I don't want to deny that cause I didn't

see anybody doing it as I was growing up or coming up even into the industry.

There was very few, you know, people that I could, could see that were doing this.

And I can name them all on 10 hands.

And, you know, the privilege of one of them is literally sat in the same

room as me now who is the CEO for here.

And there was, there was very few people to look at and to, to, to be

inspired by it, to take something from.

So whenever anybody asks me to speak, whether it's a podcast,

whether it's on stage, wherever it is in the world, I end up going

cause I wanna make sure I'm there.

But yeah, the flip side of that is, essentially being asked to

give a piece, piece of your soul every time you've got to, you know.

I don't mean to speak on behalf of you, but yeah, maybe you have similar

experiences in, in your comedy and you, you know, when you're give,

you're given a bit of soul to it.

And then people, and I dunno if you've ever tried it without giving that piece

of soul, but I have, and nobody's puppet.

Do you know what I mean?

They just don't, they don't know.

They don't care.

It's just, stop speaking at me.

You give a bit of soul and they're like, oh, okay.

I'll come on this journey.

I'll hear about it.

You have people in that are really interested because they know somebody

from care or their childhood wasn't the greatest, or they're from a council

estate, or they're northern or even like the, the sort of, and let me be very

blunt, the middle-aged white CEOs that sat in there that really don't wanna give

me the time of day, but then I get to the Army and say that, you know, I was

attached to a special forces unit, and then every guy in the room is sitting up.

Oh, okay.

So, do you know what I mean?

I, I, you know, unfortunately, you know, I was in a coma at the

end of that and got medically discharged because of what happened.

So you've gotta give a piece of soul for that guy to sit up, you know.

And another piece of soul for that lady to sit up and, and yeah, it's, it's a lot.

But if I can change something, if I can leave the world, whether it's this

podcast, whether it's a stage thing, I'm sure you're the same, if we can

leave people understanding what we went through so that they can understand

other people from similar situations.

Or they don't even need to understand what I went through.

They just need to understand that people are different.

We come from different places.

Don't hold us to where we were born.

Don't hold us to who we were born to.

Don't hold us to the colour of our skin unless you want to celebrate it with us.

Don't hold me to the person I've fallen in love with unless you

want to celebrate that with us.

Don't hold us to the different abilities we might have or

the things we're unable to do.

Why don't you come and see the things I can do as opposed to, to looking

at me for the things I can't do.

Hopefully all of this governor, makes people think a little bit different.

Even if I need more than one of them.

I've given them 40 years of my life already.

I turned 40 this year.

My son turned 18 this year.

I don't want the world to be the same when he gets to my age now and he's

halfway there, you know, and I'm probably halfway towards death and I would like

it to get a bit better before I'm gone.

Do you know what I mean?

And I'd like to stop going to DEI sessions where all the people in there

are all already black, already have a different ability, or already LGBT.

Why are all the people you know that have had the privilege not

sat sat in that room, you know?

Have you, have you never noticed that you go to a d EI session no matter

where it is, even in our agencies.

It's not so much in mind cuz every day is a DEI session, but , but you know, you

go into agencies and other people sat in.

There are other people that don't need to be there.

They're living it.

They're being hurt by it.

They're they're trying to change it.

That the room is full of change makers and that's great, but what you actually need

is one change maker in a room speaking to the room and everybody else didn't

give a shit the day before and they're sat in the room now and they go out and

they go and do something to change it.

That's what you need.

You know, whether you're sat in on a beach and all of the black and

brown and LGBT people are sat in one section of the beach and then all of

the CEOs are sat in other sections of they need to be bloody sat there.

I don't need to speak to other black people about what it's

like to be a black person.

I need you's over there to come over here.

That's what I'm hoping that this is doing,

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I hope so.

I mean, just cuz I even see it where it's just like a lot of white people

especially will just be like, oh, you have to hear this all the time, what about us?

That whole gross, disgusting.

You, know...the hashtags of the White Lives Matter thing or the

no one's listening to my voice.

No one's asking me.

It's like, because your voice is the reason we're here.

Like, and they don't have that reflection to know that.

And it's amazing to me, right, to like not be able to even hear yourself

and to hear what you're saying.

And it's like, yeah, your life matters, but if you, you're not getting shot

yeah,

yeah,

or you're not getting treated badly, or you're not not

getting into some place or getting looked at in a store, you're not,

none of that's happening to you and you're running the company, by the way.

yeah.

So yeah, it's just, I don't know, it's wild to me.

I've struggled with that, the exact same thing.

I've struggled with it.

I, I just, I, and I don't even know what a good answer to it is cuz

it's been said to me a few times.

Yeah, well, all lives matter, or, well, white Lives matter.

I'm like, yes they do but you know, if there is a street of houses

and one of them is on fire, you go and help the house that's on fire.

All the houses on the street matter but just one needs help, you know?

One needs the flames put out.

That's what we're doing right now.

We're not saying that you don't matter.

We're saying that we're gonna help the one that's on fire, the one that's getting

shot, the one that's getting followed, the one that, you know, for the unprivilege

of the color of their bloody skin.

It's just life is different for them.

It is harder for the unprivileged that they have a a disability

born with or come later in life.

But that unprivilege, they can't bloody use or get on that train.

They can't get up in that door.

That bar doesn't even have a ramp or, you know what I mean?

So we're going to fight that.

We're gonna fight the inequality of that.

We're gonna fight the inequality of racism.

We're gonna fight the inequality of transphobia.

So I never know what the answer is when people say that, but well, apart from

to punch them in the head, I don't, I don't condone violence, just as a

disclaimer, before somebody starts suing me yeah, no, I I wouldn't even

leave it in like, I don't condone violence, but sometimes you just don't.

I, I, but my point was to emphasize a point of I just don't know what

to say when that's said to me, and, and I hope anybody that's listening

to this that has ever thought it or said it, just don't say, nobody is

saying that all lives don't matter.

We're just saying, as you said yourself, that you are already the bloody CEO.

You're already have the privilege.

We're just saying, we, we wanna show what we can do.

We're not saying we need any charity.

We don't need anything handed to us.

We've all come through life being told to run faster, to work

harder, to learn everything.

We don't need any special treatment.

I just want, in the race.

And I went in the race starting on the same start line.

Not that start line that is when we both stand there and then you

say, take two steps forward if you had a mom and a dad all your life.

Take two steps forward if you had access to university.

Take two steps forward if you had books in your house.

And before you know it, the race is unfair cuz you are near the

finish line and I haven't even started running yet, you know?

So that's what we're asking for.

And all lives matter..

It's just a silly cop out, which means you're not gonna help.

And if you're not gonna help, just get out the way.

We don't, you know, don't waste your energy, just move aside and let, let

people that want to be allies or advocates come through and let us sort it out.

Yeah.

Sorry, I, I went down a little bit of a soapbox then, but, and

you know, it's a, it's a passionate thing.

Yeah.

I live with it every day.

Well, I mean, it just shows you're passionate about, about

this and then, and that's why you have a company that's, that's promoting it.

I do wanna ask you though, you were in the military for 10 years, you did that.

And maybe just what brought you into that, and then what brought you into

advertising later because there are a lot of different paths you can take

first of all, when you're starting out and then you went in the military,

and then when you're going out of.

Yeah.

yeah.

yeah.

So the military, I got into the military because I got into trouble and the care

system had a deal with the army that as long as you didn't do something bad

rather than going to a young offenders, you could go and join the Army.

And that's why.

I, I don't really tell many, many people that, but yeah, I was

heading towards a remand center.

And then because they didn't have parents to sit with me at the, at

the thingy, it was social services, there's a thing called Youth Justice

and they, they sent somebody.

And this Youth Justice turned up and I spoke to them for about 10 minutes and

then they were like, "I like you, Chris."

There's this scheme that's just started.

You're gonna get sent down for this.

I'd stolen something from shut.

It's, they were like, they're gonna, they're gonna send you to a remand

center but a youth remand center, but actually there's a scheme and

you could join the Army if you want.

But you'll, you have to do a year.

They'll mandate you to do a year, blah, blah, blah.

Do you wanna do it?

And I'll say, yeah, I'll do it.

I don't want to get locked up.

I wasn't a bad kid.

I really wasn't.

I just like, I didn't have anything.

Like nothing.

And shops had everything and people with parents had everything and I

just wanted something, you know.

And I had no other way.

There was no one to ask.

I just did it.

I would even honestly say actually it was probably the best thing I

ever did for me personally, the trajectory it sent me on in my life.

Cuz then I joined the Army and I found a family.

Like I had family, but still, I still have mates that are my mates for life now.

I found a purpose.

I, I've started to learn things like integrity and

camaraderie and, and honesty.

You know, that you can be honest and get through life.

And you can have principles and integrity that can be foundations

for other things that you do.

So yeah, it was, it was actually the best thing that ever happened to me.

But I did get barred from every Greggs in the country for life is what.

I got a letter

... This is where there was like only six

The road people that are from up North will know this.

There's a road in Sunderland called West Chester-le-Street near the Royal Hospital.

And one of the first Greggs ever was on that road.

Me and my mate, we were starving.

We were both in care.

We couldn't was nobody to ask for any money.

And we stole a pasty and a bag of crisps and a can of Coke.

We got all the way home and then the police come storming into

our children's home and arrested us cuz we've been followed on

cameras going through the street.

And then, yeah, they sent me a letter saying, you are barred

for life from all the Greggs.

I used to go to Greggs all the time.

their their picture's too old to know who I am.

And I was 14 and I'm 40 now.

They, they need to use that machine that makes your, what

do they look like now machine.

Uh

Well, all the AI and stuff, they're banning people from Madison Square

Garden now using a face recognition.

.Oh really?

Yeah,

Well,

But yeah, that's, so Gregg's

yeah.

So I was, I actually got a letter that said you're barred from

every Greggs in the country.

And so yeah, that, that was, but it, it sent me on a different journey.

It put me in the Army.

The Army gave me drive and, you know, and I loved the Army.

I'd still be in it now probably.

Due to an incident I'm out.

So I have epilepsy now from that incident, cause I had a brain injury.

You know, and then I got into, somehow got into a bit of presenting.

I've always had the gift of the gab.

Got into a bit of presenting, then formed my first company,

which was a production company.

I presented MTV for two years.

I got my own chat show on Sky.

You know, all these things that just confirm the kid from care that was gobby

because you were always put in rooms with other people that you didn't know.

So you got used to speaking to people you don't know.

You got used to shouting if you want something.

Well, that just turned into being a TV presenter.

Do you know what I mean?

Good at speaking to people.

Good at holding a conversation.

Good at negotiating my way.

So negotiating my way through the estate every day to not get beat up or to not

get in hassle with the drug dealers or whatever turned into negotiating

contracts, negotiating deals as a company, negotiating deals for myself.

And now, you know, on behalf of the company and alongside other people.

You know, all these things you think then people over there that different,

you think they're, they're wastemen.

You think that they're not gonna be able to bring anything to society.

All they need is a help in the right direction.

All they need is for someone to inspire them to, to set, you know,

to give them the opportunity.

And then they can be sat here.

You know?

And sort of that fits into what we said at the beginning as well.

Seeing people, seeing people in adverts, seeing Indian people, not just in a

corner shop, in an advert, but, being a doctor, being a nurse, being a

lawyer, being a, a business founder.

You know what I mean?

Seeing them means that you then know okay, all right.

One of the first things I watched on TV was uh Channel 4.

And it was Queer as Folk.

The very first time when it come out, you know, the original one, I remember

being like, oh my God, there's a whole street where there's people.

And I, I was young and I remember young gay shows about 13, 14.

Remember, think I feel like I have something in common with them.

Oh, no, I don't.

I can't be, I never, I don't wanna be like, that's too different.

I just, you, the place you are, the environment you're in, and I just

suppressed it and was, I was, I was, don't get me wrong, I was happy with my wife.

We had kids, so things worked.

You know, it's not like, you know, it's not like, oh, he was

a total gay man, just hiding.

Well, no, there was fun had.

That's how children are made.

You know, it doesn't just happen.

I quite like it actually that our conversation has sort of looped back

on itself to the reason I'm sat here to speak to you and have this great

conversation is that because there were people, if I'd seen more, maybe

the bad bits, maybe the Greggs and the stuff like that wouldn't have happened.

Cuz I didn't know, okay, there's something to aim for.

Cause you sort of just wondered, you know, and especially when socioeconomically,

you're not, you don't have anything.

What do you have?

Do you know what I mean?

You know, one of the things I used to do when I was a kid was go into a shop...

and this is bad, but go into a shop...

and would steal bacon.

Bacon and razors.

And then I would go, me and my mate used to do it.

We was steal bacon and razors.

And then we would go to the pub and we'd sell the bacon and razors cause it was

the easiest thing to sell to people.

People would buy it, right?

We'd take the money and then go and get shopping, proper shopping,

food, shopping for his gran cuz his gran couldn't leave the house.

All people will have seen, and I remember we used to do it, we used

to do about once every two weeks and we'd get our loads of shopping and

then she'd make us a lovely meal.

And we, I loved her, like as if she was my own gran, and, and he

was in care, but he loved his gran.

And if she was well enough, he wouldn't have been in care.

He would've lived with her, you know?

And she wasn't far from the children's home we lived in in Sunderland.

Society would just see two kids stealing.

That's all.

Society will see; two kids from a rough estate, stealing.

But actually the end of that is that, you know, we were feeding his

gran, a woman that had worked all of her life but couldn't afford the

care that she needed in her home.

Couldn't afford to get somebody to go and get the shopping for her.

So we did it and didn't have enough pension left over to be

able to get the shopping so we used to get it for her, you know?

Yeah.

So hopefully chats like this and adverts that my company make, and, you know,

brands or, or businesses getting involved in these stories, getting involved in,

in these communities can make it so when we look at them, two kids next

time, one, we ask, why are you there?

Two, we say, what can I do to bring you away from there?

And three, we don't assume any of it, you know,

none of it hopefully.

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

I mean, and just even the person who, who did that in a way with you,

who was assigned to your case and who said, Hey, there's this thing,

Yeah,

you know, because they could have just not.

I mean, those people, and we have in the states, you know, like public defender

type of people, they could just not.

yeah.

because they'll make the same wage, they'll do whatever.

So that's really something.

Looking at the work you do and, and what you've been involved in, and we

talked about needing time for yourself, what do you do outside of work?

Cuz you're doing stuff in a way, in your job that some people do like outside,

Yeah.

kind of activism stuff, but what do you do outside of work that brings

you joy or maybe fills you, because I'm sure you have rough days there?

Yeah.

Do you know, this is the very sad part of me is I love work so much

that I do it, it's part, it's consumed in everything that I do.

But I also, I do a lot of mentorship.

To me it's not mentorship that, that's the fancy name for it, but basically

other people different ages that have got their own businesses or kids that are

starting out or trying to do something.

Sometimes I'll chuck a bit of my own money.

I definitely stick a lot of my own time.

You know, I love steak, so it's quite often on a weekday that you'll find me

in some nice steakhouse bringing these people that want a little bit of my time.

And I'm like, oh, great, I'll take it for steak.

You ask me questions, I will tell you my thoughts.

Don't do it just cuz I said to do it, but use me as a soundboard.

I love that.

So I do a lot of that.

And, and then I do a lot of sports.

I love sports.

I stay, I stay very fit.

And then I just work, I spend time with the family.

Obviously that's given but.

, even when I would say I travel a lot, I do travel a lot, but I work

while I travel it all the time.

It's, it's just my life.

But you know, and I know there's lots of people, so great people that tell

you about self care and workers and everything, you know, and stuff like that.

And everything they're saying is true.

You know, you got your Steve Bartletts and people like that.

They'll say, you know, give you great sound bites about

everything's not about work.

And I get it.

And I, I admire them for it.

And, you know, as a fellow Northerner, the stuff that's said, but for me,

and we, we, we've often crossed each other going on different stages.

But for me, I just have to be honest, I've really love work.

It's, it brings me joy.

So I work far too much.

I speak about it too much.

I drink.

I'm Northern.

I drink, so I get wasted and have a good time with my friends.

Do not get me wrong.

But I like work.

Like, you know, like we went out, cause I'm going back to New York tomorrow.

We went out last night, out till five o'clock.

I've been in wake all day today.

Dying.

I'm probably useless, but I've been here just, I, I couldn't imagine just

sitting at home and not coming in.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, it brings me joy, which is what drags my sorry

Yeah,

hungover ass out bed this morning was,

I didn't wanna miss anything.

I wanted to be involved.

So yeah, that's, that's my life.

Awesome.

That's so cool.

I, I mean, I like it.

I appreciate hitting a pub or a club or whatever too, so I totally get that.

So one thing I guess I like to ask every guest is just do you have any advice or

mantra you like to share with people?

There's a little bit of an acronym.

I love acronym.

Well, yeah, I do.

I love them.

Cause the Army gave me lots of acronyms.

Advertising gives you loads of acronyms.

So I made one up of my own cause I was sick of just having to do everyone else's.

So it's DMTR.

And I think it applies to most things in life, but actually for this, this business

of, you know, a brand or a company wanting to reach underrepresented groups across

race, religion, sexual orientation, different abilities, et cetera.

So it's DMTR so it's like, do it.

So don't wait, don't wait till what feels like the right time.

You can get your house in order whilst you're doing it externally

as well, spending in media, changing the people that are in

your ads, whatever that might be.

So do it.

Mean it.

Train it.

Once you're doing it, once you're mean it, then train everybody

else and then repeat it.

DMTR.

And I think, you know, if everybody does that on things that are new, whether

it's engaging employees around different abilities and how to make sure that the

workplace and they are understanding of the different, you know, the different

needs of their different work colleagues.

Whether it's a brand that wants to start advertising to the L G B T community

or the black community or the Hispanic American community, whatever it might be.

Yeah.

Do it mean it, train it and repeat it and you'll do okay from that.

Nice.

The DMTR.

Okay, cool.

My last set of questions is the fun five.

So it's five questions I ask everybody.

The first one, what's the oldest T-shirt you have and still wear?

Oh, the oldest t-shirt is one from when I was 15 years old

and it has everyone's signature on it.

That was they signed it when I was in school leaving that school.

And I still wear it sometimes.

That's so cool.

That's great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And sharpies, you can't get 'em out of anything, right?

Yeah, exactly.

And it looks cool cause like I've got a really cool pair of D

and G trainers that have paint.

They look like paint splashed on them.

And so this thing is faded but like every time I wear it with them trainers, like,

I know this sounds very vain, but people you know when you're out will be like them

sneakers and that top, especially in New York cause everybody just speaks to you

about what you're wearing, don't they?

So it's like them sneakers and that t-shirt really call me.

All right, so especially during lockdowns and I don't...

were you in New York or were you in London during

Mostly in London and then the tail end in New York.

Got it.

So you were, yeah, they were both locked down then at, at some level,

so it seemed like Groundhog's Day, like the movie with Bill

Yeah.

Murray.

If it was really Groundhog's Day, what song would you have

wake you up every morning?

Yeah.

So Roxette, "Spending My Time."

Love that song.

Nice.

All right, cool.

And I haven't gotten that answer yet either.

I'm getting some repeats now cause I have a Spotify playlist.

That'll be good.

That'll be a good add.

All right.

Coffee or tea or neither?

Neither.

Neither.

Wow.

Even with the, even with the hangover

Yeah.

No.

I don't know if I still am, but I used to be allergic to milk.

So, well, I know I'm not, cuz I eat ice cream and ice Putin lots of

stuff with milk, but I still can't bring myself to, to, to have things

where milk is directly put into it as part of the process that I do.

Does that make sense?

Do you know what I mean?

Like, so my mind is like, oh, that's gonna make you really just put

milk in it, but then put ice cream in front of me where there's no

process of milk, but it's just milk.

I'm like, gimme that and I don't get

ill.

You got

help.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So

neither

it's an aversion.

Well that's good.

I don't know.

Caffeine's not really great.

I'm realizing more and more so.

Alright.

Can you think of a time that you like laughed already cried or just

something that always cracks you up?

Like maybe video or your kids or something, whatever.

No.

Sorry, kids.

They've not done anything funny.

But my partner Dean, right?

So we've been together 15 years and one time, well it was like in our first week

of being together and we were eating and we were eating Sunday dinner and I put

my fork on the plate and we were at his, surrounded by his housemates, right?

I put my fork on the plate and all my peas sort of rolled off the plate

and, and there was like in slow motion and everybody was looking and these,

this pea was rolling across the plate and I was so embarrassed cuz you're

just trying to make a good impression.

And then Dean and it still makes me laugh thinking about it.

It's so crap.

But he was like, "oh my god Chris, you've got an escape-pea".

And I died of...

I tried not to and I just died of laughed at and I still laugh at it now.

It's, yeah it was, that moment was one of the funniest moments of my

life just cuz it was so awkward and everybody was looking at this bloody

pea and I just wanted the ground to swallow me cuz I looked messy.

And then he is like, yeah, look, you've got an escape-pea.

And I was just like that.

Oh, that's when I knew.

I was like, okay dude,.

Like I think I can hang around with you for a little while.

And that was 15 years ago.

Amazing.

That's quick wit.

I mean, that's fast.

That was a really fast

He's really quick.

that, . That's cool.

All right, so the last one.

Who inspires you right now?

My son right now.

Yeah.

He's turning it to a, a little man and I like the man he's turning into.

There's some things I would change.

Like he can be a little bit gobby.

He's a bit messy.

He needs a job.

Not painting him in a great picture.

Yeah.

But but actually, you know, he's really polite and he's good and he's helpful and

he's always looking, af looking out for others and yeah, I, I, I am very proud

of him, so he inspires me every day.

And He did work experience with us for a couple of weeks.

I would sneak around a corner and listen cuz everybody changes

when the CEO walks in the room.

So I would listen to what he was doing and stuff and he was just doing stuff

and saying stuff that was adult and I was just like, oh yeah, he, he's

learned stuff, you know what I mean?

Just absorbed it.

So, so

yeah, my son.

Keep going Jerome.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

All right.

We'll shout out to Jerome then.

So Chris if people wanna find you or find your company or whatever, where

do you want 'em to go to follow you or

Yeah.

Yeah.

If they could go onto Christopher Kenna on LinkedIn or Chris dot

Kenna (chris.kenna) on Instagram.

Or but you know, you don't need to follow me.

The company's pretty good though.

So check out the company at we are brand advance dot com (wearebrandadvance.com)

and then it'll take you through to the whole, that's the whole network

and then you can see all the different individual companies and the great

people here and yeah, if anybody's willing to reach different communities

or is in advertising or anything like that, then I'd love to speak to them.

Awesome.

Well, Chris, thank you so much.

This has been great.

Thank you,

It's so good to get to chat with you.

And you.

Really enjoyed it.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for listening.

You can learn more about the guest and what was talked about in the show notes.

Joe Maffia created the music you're listening to.

You can find him on Spotify at Joe M A F F I A.

Rob Metke does all the design for which I'm so grateful.

You can find him online by searching Rob M E T K E.

Please leave a review if you like the show and get in touch if you

have feedback or guest ideas.

The pod is on all the social channels at at More Than Work pod

(@morethanworkpod) or at Rabiah Comedy (@RabiahComedy) on TikTok.

And the website is more than work pod dot com (morethanworkpod.com).

While being kind to others, don't forget to be kind to yourself.