I would like to acknowledge the Dharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.

[00:00:39] Trisha: Hi there, everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives, especially different cultural perspectives, and why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness. The Shifts in thinking As those of you who have listened to some of the earlier episodes will be aware, Cultural Intelligence, CQ, the capability to be effective in situations of diversity, is made up of four areas. Motivational, the drive. Cognitive, the knowledge. Metacognitive, the strategy, and behavioral, the action. And all four of these capabilities help us operate better in situations of diversity.

[00:01:27] Trisha: In this podcast, we're focusing more on the metacognitive aspect, sometimes referred to as thinking about our thinking, and it is CQ strategy. Today's guest is another CQ fellow, I first met Kristin in 2023 in Singapore, where we had some wonderful in depth discussions and have done since then. Welcome to Kristin Ekkins.

[00:01:52] Kristin: Thank you so much, Trisha.

[00:01:53] Trisha: thank you for being here. Let me introduce you a little bit. Kristin is an award winning cultural strategist. She's a solutions architect. A master facilitator, a high performance coach, a TEDx speaker, and an entrepreneur. She is the CEO and founder of Exponential Inclusion, a company designed to enhance cultural intelligence and leverage inclusion and belonging to boost organizational and global impact.

[00:02:20] Trisha: Before founding her company, she served as the Director of Corporate Partnerships at the Cultural Intelligence Center, where she supported the development of CQ, working with individuals and global organizations. And one of the areas that fascinated me when we first spoke in Singapore was her work with edge walkers.

[00:02:38] Trisha: and seeing her as an edgewalker herself. Today I'm curious to learn more about the work you're doing, Kristin, and the community you're creating, what makes it powerful, and how you help people shift in their thinking to see different perspectives. But first, the questions we ask all our guests. So Kristin, what is a culture, other than the culture you grew up in, that you have learned to love and appreciate?

[00:03:05] Kristin: I do love that question. So the one of the cultures I would say is the Latino culture here in the United States. And I came by that by living first and in Spain and in Mexico and in Costa Rica, but then also studying the indigenous people that were in those different locations and studying the cultures of what made those cultures, what they are today, and then immigration patterns, and working with, even migrant workers who were from Mexico, let's say, for example, and then came to the States to work for a period of time, then would go back home again.

[00:03:42] Kristin: And so I, I teach English to speakers of other languages. That's actually what my start was.

[00:03:49] Trisha: Right, that was your master's degree, wasn't it?

[00:03:51] Kristin: Yes, yes. And so for me, it comes down to understanding the people and I've just had a true passion for understanding Latinos who have come specifically even to West Michigan, where I live, and understand Who they are, where they've come from, the roots of what's made them who they are.

[00:04:12] Kristin: Maybe they're a third, fourth generation here in the United States and just understanding so many different ways that people are and the cultural piece. So I felt very connected. I like to say, um, respectfully that I'm Latina at heart. Cause I've realized I, the, the values, the cultural values I connect with deeply, uh, with those values.

[00:04:36] Trisha: And in an earlier episode, we interviewed Lauren from our CQ Fellows cohort, and we spoke about some of those values that are, that are key to her as well. So yeah, that's wonderful. Thank you. Can you tell me about a time when you experienced the shift when you suddenly became aware of a new perspective?

[00:04:56] Kristin: Yes, the strongest shift. I'll describe that one. It was the first time that I lived in Spain, and I came back to the United States, and it was a reverse culture shock. So the shift was a hard shift. It wasn't this nice, gentle shift that happened. Which often can be right when we have a worldview that completely shifts.

[00:05:21] Kristin: That's it can be very disruptive. And at the same time, I would say that shift for me was disruptive yet healthy. So what I saw and what I experienced was, the role of relationships and how we connect to people. And I always felt like an outsider in the United States when it came to this, but I didn't know why.

[00:05:44] Kristin: And then when I got to Spain and realized, Oh, this is like a breath of fresh air. People connect in different ways, relationally, and it's not transactional. That's not to say that everyone in the United States connects in a transactional way, but I did find. Culturally at its core, they do.

[00:06:06] Kristin: That, generally speaking, it is more a way of task based and focus on getting the job done and focus on, business first, for example, rather than building relationship first.

[00:06:18] Kristin: And that's how you build trust to do the work. That to me was a really hard shift and at the time I was actually just in college. And so it wasn't even in the work world yet besides in restaurants. And when I, when I was actually as a server and, um, serving food and I remember coming back from my semester abroad, having lived with a family, being very connected and then coming back to the States, it actually was such a shift that I felt a little bit depressed.

[00:06:49] Kristin: That I didn't want to go back to that job because it was so transactional. And I sought out opportunities that I could connect further. And actually that led me into teaching English at night to adults. who were migrant workers in their camp.

[00:07:06] Trisha: Yeah. Interesting. The outcome of the shift, isn't it? How it often, you know, will push us in a different direction or, open us up to other things that maybe we hadn't thought about previously.

[00:07:16] Kristin: absolutely. But then also important to understand, I mean, I saw it even differently than my family, everyone around me. It felt like, it felt like in the moment, no one else saw it this way. But what I've realized, you know, that was 20 plus years ago. And I realized, well, that's, that wasn't the case. There were many relational people around me.

[00:07:35] Kristin: Yet that shift in that moment was so strong that, you know, the, the positive side is it did help me understand more about myself that I didn't realize. And then start finding people who did connect that way. And then I could stay connected with, to give me more energy in life as I went through life.

[00:07:54] Trisha: Yeah, that's encouraging and good on you for doing the work to unpack it. You know, in, in my work with, people who move across cultures with their work, I have encountered people who have come back and just said, I'm, I'm feeling really depressed and haven't actually unpacked what's sitting behind that feeling. So good on you for doing the work and unpacking it and recognizing where it was coming from rather than, you know, the, the sense of, malaise that sometimes sits with those sorts of shifts.

[00:08:24] Kristin: it is hard work though. I mean, I'll, I'll mention that, you know, because. It's easier to, in a sense, not to do anything about it, but that's at the same time that keeps you in a space that's not going to bring you to your higher self or your true self, right? And so for me, actually, it became something that I was so curious about.

[00:08:46] Kristin: That I went much deeper into my, my higher education studies, you know, so finished off college and then went for my undergrad or my, my graduate school looking at, it was a mixture of language and culture and social linguistics and understanding. Well, what makes us who we are and our identities. And so that, that truly brought me into the space of cultural intelligence without knowing,

[00:09:13] Trisha: Absolutely, yeah yeah. So as we think about cultural intelligence and think about the work that you've been doing over the years, you've had some very big projects focusing on large organizations. And when you think about those successful completed projects, what do you think you did that enabled whole organizations to shift?

[00:09:34] Kristin: and that's not an easy thing either. I, I seem to choose the challenging projects. In terms of the organizational shifts, so I didn't realize at the time, that's what I was really doing at first for, and because I started with individuals and then went into teams and helping leadership then, and more building bridges around communication and culture, that type of thing.

[00:10:02] Kristin: And what I realized though, as I got in further, so I first did that through my own business, not the one I have now, but a business I started first. And then I decided to go in house to an organization and it was a healthcare organization. But this is where the organizational shifts, I realized what was critical.

[00:10:23] Kristin: If that was going to be a more inclusive organization and that's what they hired me to help them with, then it was actually the networks inside.

[00:10:33] Kristin: And so that's my main focus even now and has been for a while is figuring out how do you create, whether I call them champion networks or these edge walkers inside of organizations or, super nodes, finding these connectors.

[00:10:50] Trisha: Right.

[00:10:51] Kristin: You can call them what you'd like, but they're basically the people who help create change, the change makers. And so what I found with working with these large organizations, if I do train the trainers, or if I help, help people understand how to unlock and disrupt where things need to be disrupted yet in a way that is not shifting everyone's world around them so much that they disengage. But allow them to influence effectively, then we can actually start to create this web first of, excitement. That's the first thing, right? That you have people who are finding other people who believe in the same thing. They may be very different from each other in the way they work.

[00:11:37] Kristin: They, they see the world, their background, their experiences, but they come together with this common, goal of creating good in the world or in their organization, their community, whatever it looks like. And as they come together and build up their skills and figure out now, how do I be a champion in this space or a change maker?

[00:11:55] Kristin: Then what happens is the shift starts to, it starts to move already, no matter what, because it's this, I like to see this wave of people coming together. Right. And it's so exciting. When you see that happen, and one other organization I mentioned, I actually was working with Dr. David Livermore at the time, who we know from

[00:12:19] Kristin: CQ fell and other things, right?

[00:12:23] Kristin: We were working on a project together. I won't mention the name of the organization, but he has mentioned it in his books before. It's in the Middle East and it's an airline and we went in and we actually started. We did a train the trainer together with them and we were working with their customer service.

[00:12:42] Kristin: And so these were to train these flight attendants who are working from the five star, you know, service and figuring out how in the business class, even to, you know, the economy, what, what does it look like? Well, I got a call from them in January, just this past year. So five years ago is when we went and did the training and, I'm saying this because of the shift that happened, but I didn't even realize over the five years when they called and I was talking to them, they said, we've had a major shift. And what they said was 15, 000 people are now trained internally in cultural intelligence because of you and Dr. Livermore did five years ago.

[00:13:27] Kristin: And to me, it was like that is impact. And it's not just about the number of people because what I see and if we had more time to dive in deeply, you can actually see that that actually impacts every connection that they have with every human being that boards a plane with them.

[00:13:45] Trisha: Absolutely.

[00:13:46] Kristin: Right. And so that's, that's the power of some of these shifts and creating networks of people that can work together towards the same common positive goal and creating more, for example, culturally intelligent spaces.

[00:13:59] Trisha: So, as you've been doing that train the trainer, you referred to that work you've done, you have trained, I don't know, thousands upon thousands of people in training, cultural intelligence and coaching, training and coaching. many of us, you know, have taken that, that training that we did and, you know, used it in different areas.

[00:14:21] Trisha: I'm wondering just as you think back to that work that you've done over and over again, what were the things that you found most helpful for helping people to develop their, their CQ strategy, their metacognitive awareness.

[00:14:34] Kristin: I would say, and I'll add a piece that for me, it became, important to add consulting to it, too. So I became an advisor, right? And then consulting and the coaching and facilitating and you put on as we do whatever hat we need to put on at that moment to help move the needle. And so what what I found for CQ strategy in particular, that is again, as you mentioned, thinking about thinking.

[00:15:03] Kristin: The thing that if I can get people to see, to see prior to going into a conversation, plan out some steps of what they should do differently than what they typically would do because they're interacting with someone who is so different from them, for example, then if they can at least just sit down and think through it.

[00:15:25] Kristin: First, that's the very first step, because how many times do we plan for maybe a discussion we're going to have, but we don't plan on how we're going to have that discussion, or what key things will help us connect more effectively with that person we're sitting across from. So, Just even the, the piece of sitting down and journaling or sitting down and asking questions with, with a persona in mind.

[00:15:49] Kristin: Uh, and so that's one of the, the things that I do. I do a lot of design thinking within my work. And so personas have helped a lot. When I go and facilitate with companies, I actually, to make it, easier for them to think about someone, I give them specific personas. And I say, now think about this persona in the interaction you'll have with them.

[00:16:11] Kristin: And I actually do canvas maps with them. And that's a great way to engage in this work. How would that person, you know, creates empathy. How would that person feel in this situation? What would they be thinking? What do they see? All of those things to help them just engage in someone else's, potential mind,

[00:16:31] Trisha: Reality.

[00:16:32] Kristin: Reality yes. And that they may not be a hundred percent accurate because they're not that person. They haven't had that feeling and experience, but if we were to take it a step further, and even now with chat GPT, you can. Without having to engage other human beings in the process, right?

[00:16:50] Trisha: Yeah.

[00:16:52] Kristin: That's not necessarily goal, but maybe the next step.

[00:16:55] Kristin: And as we do in cultural intelligence, it's treat our hypothesis as a first best guess. What is my estimate? What do I think about this? But why thinking about thinking is important is because you're starting to think through scenarios that other people go through, and it helps us cut out the judgments that we make very quickly in the assumptions that we have about others because we haven't thought through what they may have been engaged in just before a conversation with us, what their story is, what their background is, right? And so thinking about it before it, and then actually during the conversation when they're actually having, let's say it's a one on one, then they're looking for the cues. And so what I'm trying to help them see during the, an exercise to help them see this is actually taking what they thought about in the empathy wheel or going through the canvas.

[00:17:51] Kristin: And going out and observing in the workplace, for example, if they're in the business, then they're actually observing to see what is the evidence of what they thought about that. And so they're testing their hypothesis during this process. And then afterward reflecting on it. And that could be engaging someone who does have that mindset or whatever that person is, that is, they're going to have a conversation with.

[00:18:17] Kristin: And they think back about it and say like, okay, so. What about, what about this? Am I on target with, and what am I not on target with? And so they're engaging tech potentially, but then also engaging with other human beings to get a perspective, to help, help them see differently.

[00:18:35] Trisha: That's wonderful. And, not just going on assumptions that might've been sitting somewhere in their head. Yeah. So let's turn to the work that you're focusing on right now and the shifts that you're helping people to make through this work. Tell me a bit about that.

[00:18:49] Kristin: Yes. So currently I'm, uh, in the process of, of actually shifting my own business. I'll mention that briefly first, because my own business, it's been for the last three to four years. I've been focused on this thought leadership and sharing what I know, and I still want to do that. That's still important to me to connect, but I see my role in this world and what I'm here to do as much bigger than that.

[00:19:17] Kristin: And my goal is actually to create even a global movement around this and shift how how we collaborate together and how we as humans connect and a critical piece of that to truly connect with others, is cultural intelligence and to be able to work and relate effectively across all these various cultures that we walk between.

[00:19:40] Kristin: But one of the aspects of this work then, there's a few different things. So I'm still building out certain parts of this ecosystem, but I will say a key thing comes back to what we talked about earlier with the networks. If we're actually going to create shift and whether that's happening in an organization or in this case on a global scale within communities and societies.

[00:20:02] Kristin: We need the change makers and these change makers. Then I call them edge walkers and I didn't create this title. I want to give a head nod to Dr. Judi Neal, and she is, she's an incredible human being who in. 2008, I think it was, wrote a book about edgewalkers. I knew nothing about it until just a few years ago when I thought a friend and I had created the term and I went to go coin it and realized, no, someone else already figured this out and actually, so beautifully figured this out. So Dr. Judi, Neal and I, she's become a mentor, a friend, someone who, who is actually a guru and global thought leader in change and in transformation. And so it's been incredible to learn from her.

[00:20:56] Trisha: And

[00:20:56] Kristin: so then I started

[00:20:57] Trisha: I just, just as a, interruption, just for the listener's benefit, Kristin has her own podcast and recently she interviewed Dr. Judi. And so I will put a link in the show notes to that interview so that you can learn a little bit more about Dr. Judi's work and how it's influenced Kristin as well.

[00:21:14] Kristin: I appreciate that. Thank you because it is it's quite a bit to explain, but if someone is truly interested in this, that is a perfect way for them to learn more about it and seek out more information. And you know, the, the key thing for me around edge walking. So, with Dr. Neal, so Judi, her blessing, I was able to create a membership that's around So it's really about creating a space for these edge walkers to come together.

[00:21:44] Kristin: And I'm specifically focused on cultural edge walkers. And these cultural edge walkers, what I see them as are people who are coming from all around the world, all different cultures. Some of them will say, I'm a third culture kid, right? I'm trying to figure out my identity still, or some knowing their identity now, but it's, They felt that they've been walking between worlds and not some of them not knowing how to bridge those worlds.

[00:22:11] Kristin: Others have learned the skills to bridge the worlds and now they're bridging worlds for other people so that people can stay more connected and understand who they are, how they can show up to this world as the best version of themselves. And so it's been really fun to see because these edge walkers, change makers, these are people who want a positive shift in the world.

[00:22:34] Kristin: These are people, yeah, who want to make a difference

[00:22:37] Trisha: I just want to, jump in for the listeners. So some of you who have been, you know, following the shift podcast for a while will perhaps like maybe immediately thinking of a few. So, um, one is Tanya who spoke about TCKs and who's done a great deal of research about TCKs, uh, and herself.

[00:22:56] Trisha: Grew up as a TCK. So she is definitely an edge Walker. And another one who stands out is Grace, who is a TCK, but didn't realize she was until, we entered into a coaching relationship when she moved to Australia. With her work and so we unpacked a little bit of that and, and, her episode is talking about when to climb the tree.

[00:23:18] Trisha: So I'll put again, both of those episodes in the show notes so that people can listen to them because I think, their examples will be ones that would move and encourage people as well. Yeah.

[00:23:29] Kristin: That's amazing, because this is, it's finding, it's finding people and sometimes it's the inspiration because I believe all of us have Edgewalker in us,

[00:23:39] Trisha: Right, yes.

[00:23:40] Kristin: Right? It's, we all have it, some much more strongly

[00:23:44] Trisha: exactly

[00:23:44] Kristin: than others

[00:23:45] Trisha: yes,

[00:23:46] Trisha: that's what I was thinking just immediately like Tanya and Grace leaped out. But yeah, they're thinking about the people who, whose want to step to the edge, for various reasons.

[00:23:57] Kristin: That's right. And, and the, the thing that they have in common is, some people see them, you know, whatever words they might use, but as disruptors, or if you think about change, most people don't enjoy change. Some do, but it depends what's changing and how that will impact our lives and, you know, how that will shift everything else.

[00:24:20] Kristin: So the edge walkers though, they have more, Adaptability flexibility when it comes to that their their innate skills and their innate capabilities there. They see the world as something that, you know, something to be explored and they're curious and what they see often is into the future. A little bit further than others, and that could be through intuition, it could be through, you know, the research that they've done to understand future patterns, but they're trying to bridge as visionaries. They're trying to bridge to help people see what's coming and to do some of those connecting points and. For me with the cultural edge walkers, they're helping people bridge to create a more human experience and right to really truly connect people to people because we know we have differences, but the divides have gotten greater.

[00:25:18] Kristin: The distractions have gotten greater, the disconnect has gotten greater, and there are certain points in history where that has been the case and that's been. Very powerfully strong in a negative way,

[00:25:30] Trisha: Yes.

[00:25:31] Kristin: but we as humans right now have the ability to come together and to connect and create a force for good.

[00:25:38] Kristin: And that's where I see the critical important work of what I'm doing and Edgewalkers are a part of that story as well.

[00:25:46] Trisha: Tell me a little bit more about the human experience that you're hoping for.

[00:25:51] Kristin: Yes. So in, in my company, Exponential Inclusion, one of the things, almost a foundational Program. So I would say this signature program that we're building right now and putting out to the world, depending on when people listen to this, right, we're putting it out to the world and, and it's because we wanna help people see that we are all humans.

[00:26:14] Kristin: Bring it back to that simple, basic thing. We are all humans.

[00:26:19] Trisha: United by our humanity.

[00:26:21] Kristin: Yes. And we have a shared humanity and. If that is the case, then how can we see each other differently when we start conversation? So it goes back to the CQ strategy. How can we pause? And that's the biggest thing that I teach when I'm talking about CQ strategy and the metacognition it's pausing.

[00:26:44] Kristin: Because often we just react to things and when it hits us in our gut and it feels wrong, then our first reaction is that's wrong. We have to train ourselves to slow down and pause and think about why we're thinking that way or why we think that's wrong. Is it just because it's different from how we've always done it?

[00:27:05] Kristin: And if that's the case, then let's just pause for a moment. And consider why it's there and why we're thinking differently.

[00:27:12] Trisha: Yeah,

[00:27:13] Kristin: That's, that's a major piece that I'm looking at when, when working with companies as well. So back to that question.

[00:27:20] Trisha: that's brilliant. so in terms of, I guess, the shifts that you see people making as they work on this, what are, as you go in, as you, I'm not sure how you're working with this, whether you're in organizations or working with individuals or both, tell me a little bit more about the shifts that you're helping people to make.

[00:27:39] Kristin: Yes. Yes. So in one human experience, we have it offered in different ways, but one of the ways to scale it so that we can work with many people from all around the world. Is that there are components of e learning and so video based e learning. So I'm teaching and sharing stories. It's very human, right?

[00:27:59] Kristin: You're going to see Kristin as Kristin. I show up, um, and you know, laugh at the mistakes I make too in this, the sharing stories. And at the same time, We have people. So there's a few things. One is seeing and we want people to see and learn and unlearn things. And so one of the basic pieces, we have two different assessments.

[00:28:21] Kristin: We use cultural intelligence is one of those that we can choose to use in a program for a client. And we do bring this in house to companies, but we also will be offering it more large scale. Because we find that even some individuals will want to better curious. They want to understand the human experience and what connects us all.

[00:28:42] Kristin: And sometimes their company's not ready for it yet. And so in order to help them be able to move faster with it, we want to be able to create this, a space for them to come learn too. So a key component is seeing, and that's the learning. Another component though, is. Learning together and so we have live sessions, whether they're virtual or in person live sessions.

[00:29:06] Kristin: And then experimenting together. So that's the third component. And they actually go off and are connected to people to do many experiments to test out what they've learned throughout and then come into our community space to do that. So. It's all about connection and creating a safe space because sometimes many times we don't have enough safe spaces to test some of our ideas and especially when it relates to inclusion and belonging and when it relates to understanding how to more effectively have connections with others who are different from us.

[00:29:47] Kristin: We, we shut down before actually stepping in because it's uncomfortable.

[00:29:53] Kristin: And so that's my goal is to help create spaces where it's more comfortable to have these conversations and shift because we're coming in with the intention. And this is part of the thing right off the bat, the intention is to create better relationships with each other and ourselves and have collective impact as a result.

[00:30:11] Kristin: So this is just a first foundational piece that we're working on, but the goal is to build it out into more of a community space where we can do the As people progress through the learnings can actually come together to help do some projects together that will create more positive change in the world.

[00:30:28] Kristin: So the action is critical, not just learning, but taking it into action.

[00:30:32] Trisha: And at the same time, you're observing yourself as you're a part of that action and noticing your responses. Yeah.

[00:30:40] Kristin: That's actually the very first module is focused on self. And, and it's also, we talk about at your very core, , you know, what makes you who you are. And at the same time, if you don't care for that person,

[00:30:55] Kristin: meaning meaning love that person,

[00:30:58] Kristin: but also well being care for that

[00:31:01] Kristin: person. You can't show up to others in the way that we need to.

[00:31:05] Kristin: And so there is a critical component of if we're going to talk about managing our energy and how we feel when we're with other people and how they, we may react to them. We have to be in the right mindset to do that and it's gotta be focused on our growth and also the well being and wholeness of who we are.

[00:31:26] Trisha: I love that very much. Um, and, and the work of people like Dr. Kristin Neff comes to mind with self compassion and, and that. Awareness component of self as well. Yeah, that is brilliant. Well, it's a lot for people to learn from and think about. How would you like people to connect with you?

[00:31:45] Trisha: How can I point people towards you?

[00:31:47] Kristin: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you can definitely find me on LinkedIn under Kristin Joy Ekins. And if you do want to follow what we're doing with exponential inclusion and the shifts that we're having internally, even, and as we're creating this movement, you can go to www dot exi dot global. And at the very bottom of our page, you can subscribe to stay connected if you'd like to.

[00:32:11] Trisha: brilliant. And then they'll hear about offerings that you might have for training opportunities.

[00:32:16] Kristin: Absolutely.

[00:32:17] Trisha: Fantastic. And I will add in those aspects that we spoke about so that people can see that in the show notes as well. Kristin, thank you so much for this conversation. It feels like every time we talk, we get that little bit deeper.

[00:32:30] Trisha: And I'm sure there's probably more to unpack from this as well. As I listen to it, I'll go, Oh, I should have asked about. And

[00:32:37] Trisha: We We will have that opportunity.

[00:32:41] Kristin: we will, we will, we will continue to have these great conversations and just thank you so much for having me on your podcast. It's a pleasure. And I love what you're doing and putting this incredible work out to the world and talking about shifts and how challenging they can be, but also what you can do to make them happen more effectively.

[00:32:59] Kristin: And, um, just appreciate all the work that you're doing, Trisha.

[00:33:03] Trisha: Thank you so much, Kristin. Appreciate the encouragement. And thank you everyone for listening. Really appreciate you following along with us on this journey. And if you haven't already done so, please push that follow button on your podcast app so that you can make sure to hear the next episode of The Shift.