00:00 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

I've gone away from photography and I've come back every time, and what keeps me coming back is it's the one thing I have never tired of. I smile every day when you say there's something that you know like. You get to do what you love, and this is genuinely something I love. I will work harder for this than just about anything else.

00:25 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

This is the Photo Business Help Podcast, a resource for photographers of all levels, from brand new to burnt out, who believe that business growth starts with personal growth. I'm your host, natalie Jennings. I created Jennings Photo back in 2010 and have been happily full-time since, but not without some mistakes along the way. Those lessons, plus what's really helped me thrive financially and personally, are what I want to share with you so you can grow with your photo business too. You'll also hear stories from other photographers and industry folks, as well as my favorite ways to be more mindful and happier on this journey. It's episode 400, 400, 400 Photo Business Help episodes. It's always wild when I get to a milestone like this and thank you for coming along with me on this journey. I know so many of you have been listening to this show since the very beginning and I appreciate it so much. I wouldn't have a show without you, so thank you very much for listening.

01:27

Today I have a good friend of mine, a past associate of Jennings Photo and someone who I just love chatting with.

01:35

Lisa Quinlan and I are kind of just covering all topics. We start out just kind of getting into some conversation about her sports photography, but the conversation ramps up and we cover so many different topics, from the best thing that we've brought into our business to what to do, what not to do. I mean, we just kind of cover it all and we've both been in business a long time, so there are definitely some nuggets in here for you, and we have a lot of fun just chatting. So if you are in the mood for just listening to a couple of people have a conversation with each other, grab a cup of coffee and tune in and enjoy. So I didn't want to tell you it was going to be episode 400 because I didn't want you to be nervous about what we were going to talk about. But I figured, since you've been on my photo journey for probably longer than anyone else, that I know I think so Working with me and stuff. So that's why I thought it'd be real fun to have.

02:44 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

So you brought the really old lady on, I'm just kidding. No, we are the matriarchs, we're the or. We just have the most experience. We're experienced, yeah experienced.

02:58 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

No, but so it's episode 400, which blows my mind Very exciting. It's always fun to like celebrate 400, but you and I talked about last time we saw each other we talked about some of the sports stuff that you have done, which I think would be cool to just hear about what you're doing. But I also thought it'd be fun to just talk about what's happened in a decade of doing this. You know what's changed. We were just talking. I hit the record button because I was like, damn it, I always want to record stuff that gets talked about before the record button's on. But we were talking about gear and how I reluctantly need to upgrade my gear.

03:37 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

And.

03:37 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

I don't know, there's just lots of stuff that's happened. You and I have been doing photography a long time and you've been an associate for me and a friend and et cetera, et cetera. So a landlord Can we even use that anymore.

03:54 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Is that PC, probably?

03:55 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

not Really Ah.

03:57 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

I don't know. Sorry, I don't know, no, I don't know. I don't know either. There's a lot of speaking of change. A lot of things have changed. We can't use master bedroom, okay, you know. So, yeah, well, but I'm still, I'm a lady and a lord.

04:12 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, a landlady. Can you be a landlady?

04:17 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

You can call me a landlady.

04:23 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Anyway, yeah, well, for context, you had one of the favorite places I've ever lived in, which was which I affectionately call the Little House, and was across the street from you, and I lived there for a few years. I moved in 10 years ago, I think. I think it was 2013. It might have been 2014, but I lived there three years and it was the best.

04:46 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

It was the best. I love that.

04:48 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

So you know, we got to see a lot of each other during those years, but also we had already been doing photography together and shooting together and doing what at that point I was doing like loads of weddings. So you and I were doing some of that and anyway. So let's, I do want to ask you about the sports stuff, because I don't do sports stuff and I definitely know a few folks that are parents and that have kids growing up in the sports stuff. There's at least one person listening to this that has thought about doing this themselves, because their kiddos are doing the same thing and your kiddos are, you know, teenagers and, you know, in that age group. So, like, I'm just curious, we don't have to get into super technical stuff, but what does that look like for you? Like, what are you? What are you doing?

05:35 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Yeah, what am I doing? Yeah, that's a good question. What's the sports stuff all about? Well, sports, like you're saying, I have kids and it just kind of it's something I'm passionate about, so I love to take the photos. And then I thought, well, I spend this much time doing photos and I've heard, I've heard good things. People have said you do such a good job and that why not give this gift to other people and work in my off season? Because obviously, you know, for most of us portrait photographers, fall is super busy, january not so much, and then you go into like even spring. So well, why not just take photos? So the things that I've landed on one of my, my absolute favorite, is the documentary style for shooting and that looks like, yeah, you just show up and you're taking photos of kids, but how do you monetize that or how do you create a business model out of that?

06:26

Yeah, I have to say I'm still working on that myself, something I'm just kind of creeping into. I know that there's a market for it, what's worked for you.

06:35 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

You know, like, as far as what you've done so far, like you know, you've probably tried a few things.

06:39 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Yeah. So so far what has worked? I've done a couple of different packages just to kind of sprinkle out there. What has been the most effective has been out. I would show up, take like one picture of every kid, so kind of like a you know the, the individual portraits right, and then I stick around and I do an entire session. I'm not a session but I say for, like, say, two hours.

07:04

Baseball gets tricky, it can be an hour or can be three hours. So sometimes you have to just put a limit. You know I'll be here for two hours to take photos, but then you know anyway. So you decide that for yourself. But I would want, and that gives the game day. So I've said, okay, it's going to be, I can either do one or the other. I can make a package. So if I show up for just the team photos, let's call it it's this price. If I stay and do the rest of the photography, it's this price. Or I can just do the game day as well, and I've created a couple of different packages that way I always upsell do you want a coach's you know album, so that that's like a gift at the end of the season. So that's been a nice little add on something that differentiates yourself from like the life touch of the world.

07:53 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

What does it look like? So you go to a game, and let's say, football, because it's not baseball, and baseball can go on forever. Do you have a list of parents or people that you're reaching out to? Or, let's say, someone's just wanting to do this for the first time ever, like what would you recommend that they do to sort of get that first round of photos done and the first clients notified? Or like, how do they even step into this? I guess it's probably what I'm trying to ask.

08:25 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Yeah, I mean, for me it's pretty easy because it's my kids, so that if it's my kids team, obviously they're going to just love the photos. So I just send a link out. I would say in the beginning of course I don't, I haven't charged for my kids teams. That feels weird and awkward to say here's a bunch of photos I took now by him, from me. Probably a smarter business person would do that. I don't. I'm not saying you shouldn't, but I haven't had a ton of success trying to get those. So it's kind of like giving them the first freebies, especially if you've never done it before. You kind of want to see if anybody even wants the photos. I guess that's kind of how I look at it. The portraiture, I feel like, is a different thing, because that's something everybody almost has to agree upon in the beginning hey, I'm going to do this, and then you know, and then just like with the ones that come to your school, there's no obligation to buy, but if you want to, here's, here's a way to do that, so I don't have any magic. Well, I mean, I've just now had people starting to come to me because they see I do it and they want me, they want that, yeah, that for their own kids. And so I would say, doing the freebies, putting it on your website or putting in social media, letting the kids spread that around the images in the very beginning, is a good way to start. Now. If you are already, you've been doing this for years and you just you have a really good solid, then approaching maybe the coach and families is a better way to get your foot in the door or just to, if that's something that you know.

10:04

I have to say I don't know that this is without making it doing bulk. You know, like you hear about the just doing any type of photography and bulk. I don't know that it's super profitable. I'd love to know if it is. Somebody else says it is one, actually one.

10:23

One other way I was going to say I have not done this yet, but I know people are doing it and they might do this this year during club volleyball season is you get paid to follow one child around? Oh, so like I take photos of the entire team and it's kind of, you know, it's just kind of, whatever the action is right. So I'm not really I try to get one of every kid just because I just I want every kid to have a little something. And then obviously, if you're trying to sell images, you need to try to get every kid right.

10:50

But when we were down in Florida there were people down there that were taking photos. You would just go up and you'd sign up your kid with the number on the, give them the schedule and then somebody would follow them around throughout the entire tournament. And it was one price and they had a couple of different ways. One was they just. It was like you signed them up and then you'd have to pay for each image after that. So you still had to pay, let's say, $200, to have somebody follow your child around for this time and this time Then, if you wanted the images, it was an additional price.

11:23 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

That seems like a great model, because you're getting kind of like almost like a depositor, a retainer kind of upfront, and then they can buy extra like stuff at the end.

11:33 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

And then it was like 45 per image, something like that, and then so that's another way to just kind of hone in, and I would say people that are doing that have either they just want those images and they want to be able to sit and watch their kid, I mean it's and they have somebody being able to document that, which I think is I want somebody to do that.

12:00

There's a lot of photographers on the field with me and I always go up and talk to them what are you doing, what are you shooting with? And we chit chat and then we look at each other. Did you get the shot? I missed it. Oh my gosh, you got the shot. So you know you like, on a field like football, it is hard to get every shot. I mean, they're so far away from you.

12:17 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

What are you shooting with? What would you recommend like you know, having, if you're going to just have one lens to go out there and try and do this?

12:25 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Yeah, that's a good question. I don't have it yet. I just up. I have a mirrorless Canon. I wish it would have gone Sony. That's what everybody's shooting with. That's what I've heard is kind of the standard, for this is just from the people I've talked to. I'm not saying maybe there's something else or I don't think Canon is has caught up to like the high speed that you might need for sports in low light.

12:52 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, I've heard Fuji is fantastic as well. I know a few people shooting on Fuji. Yeah, who knows, though? Right, Because like we've done the Canon Nikon thing for a decade and like it's whatever you know, you just kind of yeah.

13:05 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

And maybe they'll catch up or maybe they'll realize that's because I think, yes, you said Fuji and I think there's one other one. So again, I haven't even looked into it because I'm Canon. I'm like I can't handle buying more right now. But like for that video option as well, I mean with sports. I wish I had I done on video and love it, I think it looks so crisp and clean, so, and it automatically focuses for you.

13:33

It's, it's a. Really. That's another area which I haven't even done, but could be open to a lot more sports things, because of course, you can miss the shot all the time If you don't have it, it's not fast enough, like mine just is not fast enough, it won't even anyway. So what I have? You asked what I had. I have a Canon mirrorless. Oh my gosh, is it our six or our five? It's our six.

13:58

It doesn't matter, it's one of them, yeah, and then I have a mirrorless lens which is like night and day for this, for low light situation. So it's still very, very good 24 to 70.

14:14 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Oh, that works for sports stuff like 70s, 70s enough.

14:17 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Oh, I'm sorry, my one 70 to 200.

14:22 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

The other one. That's nice yeah.

14:25 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

I'm thinking of what I want. I want the other one because when I'm on the sidelines I can't. I love getting the up close shots of the kids you know kind of talking and because, again, for parents they love the action shots but you can imagine a line. You can never see them. You know, even you get to you know, so I want them when they're coming off the field and they're talking to friends as well.

14:47 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

So so having both that wide and that long makes sense, I mean that's yeah, and you almost need longer.

14:55 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

The people that I'm shooting with they have even longer. They're up to 300, 500. Wow, and to get those across the field shots, yeah, you kind of need that, but I'm not there yet and I'm probably will rent and I'll let you know how it goes.

15:10 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, no, that's it's. I just wanted to kind of just pick your brain about it, because I know that there are a couple people in my world that have mentioned wanting to do it and, like I'm sure, as I said, there's like a listener or two that are like thinking about doing this. And I think what you said about just like having a fee to focus on like one kiddo or one family of kiddos or whatever, and just then they can buy the photos later, seems to make a lot of sense. But I'm sure you know anyone listening that's already doing this. Like feel free to send, send a note in or or follow up on this conversation, because it's not something I do, but it's something that I think interests other people and it interests me because it's not something I do. So I'm like how do you do this and what's it like and what do you use, and all that kind of stuff.

15:56 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

I think there's going to become a bigger market for it going forward. I'm just researching. So a lot of the coaches, colleges, they want to see kids that have their own Instagram for their sport really, or I should just say their own social page, whatever that looks like, yep, and so they want to see not only the video, which some apps like Huddle and things like that have it for them already made, but they also want to see what they're doing. So to have those other images in there and more video could potentially help kids with that arena. I can't. I mean, I'm just just researching, so I would love to hear to. Somebody else has more, more experience with this. My kids are ninth and 10th grader and we'll see how that goes. We have no, we're not going to go D one or you know.

16:45

But even if it makes sense that colleges are just kind of looking for that, I think it could help. And then the NIL, of course, with being able to make money for kids. So, yeah, it's definitely out there. And with social media, I mean, everything changes on the dime. So who knows, it could go that direction or not, but you're going to be a part of it.

17:06 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

There's so many things I could just ask you. Usually, when we talk, we just talk for hours, but I want to at least keep it photo centered. But, what have you done in the last 10 years that you will never do again, and what are you loving, besides the sports?

17:24 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

That's a good question. I don't think I will. I don't think I'll ever do the wrapping of the babies again. The newborn shots or you know that posed look beautiful, just not for me. Such sweating, I don't love that. And probably weddings I don't think I'll ever do again. The 12 hour wedding, a small backyard for a friend, I could do that all day. But even that would have to be for a favor at this point.

17:57

And I think in general, just knowing as you get older, what you want to spend your time doing, and that is something that is for me. It's a season, it was a season of life. It was really exciting for me to do that. And now my season is with my kids, as a sport, in their sports, I don't know and as kids start to get married again, maybe I'll change, yeah, tune on that. You know I mean everything kind of ebbs and flows.

18:26

But I think all of it has been training me. I mean when you're doing weddings, you learn how to take photos that are meaningful and documentary style, and you have to be on all the time. You have to learn your lighting, you have to be confident. So I've taken all of those things into what I'm doing.

18:45

Learning that I wasn't a baby photographer was great, or in that style, I just did a ninhome newborn session. I'll do those all day. I love that. That's that connection piece. So I learned, oh, my style lends itself to this, this and this, and I think that still is what I'm trying to do with sports is, I still want to document that day. I want to see the joy, the pain, the camaraderie of the players. Those are all things that I try to get, and I actually really love the portrait where the kids get to bring out their personalities, and so all of it just kind of trained me to get to this point where you just kind of put it in a different place. So instead of two couples being wedding photography together, there's two kids who are best friends.

19:37 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Totally. I think we talk about this or I do, on this show a lot, but I think it's been so valuable for me. It's just so valuable to try out different things, because there are people that are 1,000% dedicated to swaddling newborns and doing gorgeous newborn photos and just would never want to touch a documentary sports session with a 10-foot pole and vice versa. So it's like listening to people talk about what they like and what they don't like should never influence what you like and what you don't like, because we all have definitely like different proclivities and different talents and just doing what you like Sometimes I think finding what you like can be really surprising. I'm sure for you, you weren't thinking about sports 10 years ago, but now you're like oh, I really love this because my kids are doing it and didn't think it would be that much fun. I don't know if you remember when I was doing food photography for Heavy Table for those two years, right when I started and I did not.

20:35

I kind of fell into that because they needed someone to fill in and I ended up doing that for a while and it was something I never thought I would enjoy and it ran its course in terms of I wanted to pursue other things more, but I really liked doing food photography for editorial stuff for a while and I never thought I would like it.

20:55

There's this and there's this photographer I wish I could I'm blanking on the name because I'd love to give her credit but there's a photographer here out in Excelsior that does gorgeous, big, large family posed portraits which, like just saying that out loud, makes me cringe a little bit because I just do not want I get those emails and I'm like ugh, but I love that. I know somebody that I can send those people to. So it's like I think this is a long winded way of me saying experiment with stuff and try stuff and be OK if you get sick of doing something. I mean I don't do weddings right now either and it trained me and it's totally fine, I think, embracing the evolution and not. I work with a lot of photographers that are like when am I going to arrive at the point where I'm doing the thing and it's like I think, if you think of it, like you're never going to arrive. You're just going to keep moving through different phases and different styles and hopefully get better, not worse, but yeah.

21:59 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

I think, as true artists all of us the reason we go on to this is we need to create, and I think that is we get bored. Well, for me, like you said, some people they can rock it and they've done it, but I still think, even within that small niche, they still are trying different things and styles, and you're constantly wanting to just push and try something new, and so I think that's fine. Like you said, I mean, maybe some of us take longer to get to where we need to be. I mean, maybe I'll land on sports and that's where I'll stay. I don't know, but I know that I know people are my subjects. At least I have that much down.

22:36

I'm not a landscape photographer, but I can appreciate it. Like you said, I think there's room for everybody here. I think there's so much that can be done and so much that people are able to do that it's just fascinating. That's why it's this wonderful community. We get to hold each other up and try new things and see what we like and maybe get there a little sooner if we have this community backing us. Somebody might say, oh my gosh, you've been doing this all wrong. This will take you to the next level by using this, this or that you know. So that's why I think it's just such. I just love this community.

23:13 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Well, that reminds me. So what's something that you've? I mean, I can share something too, but what's something that you've added to your workflow or your photo life that's like I don't know how I ever lived without this.

23:25 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

That's another very good question I know I didn't prep you.

23:27 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

I'm just like I just wanted to talk to you today.

23:30 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

I would say probably some of the software for contracts, which that's a funny one to say. But in order to make money, you have to be able to get the money.

23:46 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, no, that's it.

23:48 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

And I kid you not, if somebody says, oh, I want to book with you and I have to make the contract myself, like put in their names and their emails, I will put that off. I don't know why. It's not even hard, it's super easy. When I can send somebody a link and I make them do it all themselves done, I can do it over text message and I'm just like la, la, la, I'm going about my day. But when I have to sit down and it's like a I don't know, so that's something for me personally is like putting away that side of it, like the administrative, whatever I can do to make that work on its own.

24:23 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

I've had that chat with Audrey as well, like just the admin stuff really. She's said on the podcast many times like I just that stuff gets me off track.

24:34 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Yep, and then it. Yeah, it's just that has and I need I have things that I'm going to do that are going to make that even quicker and faster. But that has also put a framework because I have to come up with the days right, you put up on your calendar and then people look at that and that opens it, just frees up my mind to be like, yeah, sometimes I might have sessions those times and I can just take them off and I'll be.

24:54

you know, nope, I don't shoot Sundays or whatever it is, and nope, those are my available dates.

25:00 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

I think the key to like having an auto schedule or like a Calamity or whatever you use DubSato 17 hats, it doesn't matter. I use Calamity for my tarot reading stuff and and for this podcast, you know, to have like guests come in, book and stuff, and I think the key for me is to make sure that I just check in with it like once or twice a week, like make sure that anything that I don't want on the calendar is taken off the calendar. That's the only only problem I've run into is that like sometimes somebody will book something automatically and I'll be like crap, I forgot to take my availability down for that day.

25:34 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

So that's something with the one that I'm using it. If I have something on my Google calendar, it'll automatically take it off for me. It'll say oh you, already you're double booked.

25:44 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

And Calamity. I'll do that too, but sometimes I won't remember to put like personal stuff on my calendar, so like if I've, like, if I'm like, oh, I'm going to run errands and just have the day off on Tuesday or something, and then I'm like gosh, shit, somebody, somebody, right yeah yeah, yeah.

26:00

That's the only thing I have to like remember to stay. But other than that, it's so nice, you're right, just to like I love that you said contract software, but this is the stuff that gets people bogged down when they start business. It's like the stuff that it's where you make mistakes, where you might forget that you even have a shoot or you've forgotten that someone's paid you or not paid you or whatever it is. I mean this stuff is like really important to get right, because then you don't have to think about it and we don't want to think about it generally. I mean, some of us like I'm fairly organized, I'm very Capricornian, very like you know. That's just like I'm organized, so it comes easier to me. But if it doesn't come easy to you, like find something like you said that can make it easy for you so you don't have to think about it.

26:44 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Absolutely, that is definitely. And then now just to bring in equipment I have I said I have the mirrorless and having the telephoto or the zoom lens, I didn't realize how much I had loved that and I don't have to move as much and I forget to move sometimes I'm like, wait a minute, you can move and change angles. But it's helped me to just be able to compose quicker, especially with small kids that are like might be moving very fast. I don't have to chase after them and then have the camera shake and some of those I can just zoom in really quick. So that has helped my workflow, just so that I can get that shot quicker. Then I can create more of the like towards the end of a session, for instance, I can get more creative and feel loose and just if I don't get it it was all gonna be gravy anyway.

27:36

That was one when I was switching lenses. I still love to be able to have the creative freedom to switch on lenses and have a fixed lens or a prime, but I just know that sometimes I lose that amount of time. So little minor things. But that's like creative. I wouldn't say that it's for everybody, but for myself. It was kind of like a aha moment.

28:00 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, totally. So your favorite thing these days is family stuff.

28:04 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

It's family and sports. Yep, yeah, cool, If I could do that all day, Well, and then well, and I'm gonna throw in one other thing Now. I've just started to get into the head shot kind of corporate. I like a really crisp photo. I think we talked about that how I'm like, actually, you might kind of like this, but we'll see. We'll see where that one goes. It's not my wheelhouse yet and I don't, but again it's like seasons, because I'm of the age now where everybody around me is like, oh, I need to update my head shot, when do I even go? And I'm like, well, why don't you?

28:37 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

come over here.

28:37

It's interesting that you brought that up, because I was just thinking about myself and like I feel like I have two different me's inside of me when I'm working because, I can get super artsy and ethereal and moody and poetic and like I'm drawn to that kind of photography like just movement and all that kind of storytelling stuff that we love. But I also do a lot of head shots and they're marketed as creative head shots so they're not just like with a backdrop, like you know, suit and tie backdrop, like that's not what I generally love, but like head shots have to be pretty clean and crisp and well lit and they're still pretty standard. Like you're not asking someone in the head shot session to like be you know, you're not expect, or rather you're not expecting to capture like those fleeting moments of like movement and emotion, because there really isn't. It's not like mom's hugging her kid or something, it's just like someone's standing there awkwardly like help me.

29:39 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

I'm trying to get my hand.

29:40 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, totally no. I mean, that question is very common. But like, I also love that. Like I love a crisp, clean, beautiful head shot session and I love working with grownups that take direction really well and I love just being able to like place people like, hey, go stand over there, Cool, that looks good. And then I love just kids running around and just those moments and it's two totally different styles but I think they balance each other out. I'm learning this is 13 plus years of doing this. I can't believe that already. Like I'm learning that having both makes me happier.

30:17 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Yes, I feel the same way, cause I often fall into that where it's like you need that balance because you need to have the creative freedom, and yet sometimes it's like, no, I want to knock out the park, I want this to be a billboard. You know style and you mentioned like, or we were talking about where have we come and where have we gone. So I started my entire photography journey. I started I wanted to go to the Miami Ad School. It's an advertising school and I love that and I'm finding myself kind of kind of going back to. There was a reason I started this.

30:49

That was my first love was creating that. That look, something that could be an advertisement. Everything I do, honestly, I want to be an advertisement and like that's like in my head I'm like, you know, so that TikTok trend that came out, it could be an album cover. Like, yes, everything could be an album cover that lends itself to Crispin Clean and then Archie, right, and so that's kind of how I look at everything and sometimes I'm like, yeah, we're going to do the really messy, sloppy one today and we're going to have that album that looks like the 1970s. I need that today.

31:26 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, I think this is such a cool point to bring up because it's like if you're listening and you're like struggling, because you're like I love doing Posey newborns but I also love doing like rock and roll bands, it's like well great. Like you don't have to do just one thing when you're first starting out. I recommend showing like the same stuff so that you can start attracting an audience and that you can like actually feel focused in your work and you can get really good at one thing. I think it's easier to do more than one thing when you're already really good at one thing. It's almost like get good at one thing, then add something, and so on and so forth. Like you don't have to show everything you're experimenting with right off the bat, but if you find that you're getting really good at live music and you're also getting really good at Pose newborns, like great, Figure out a way to. You probably want to brand that separately, but do both, you know.

32:19 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Absolutely. That's something this year I hope to do. Speaking of that is separating my because they don't look alike my sports and my family photography and so I need to separate that brand. It's still under the one house, but I would make a separate, like Instagram, for instance, because it's sometimes I look at it on that feed and I'm like this looks like two different photographers and it is. I am very gritty and, you know, high key for my sports and then my family definitely is a different look.

32:52 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

So that's so cool that you said that it is two different photographers. So if you feel like you're showing up like two totally different ways, it's definitely worth it to try and figure out maybe a line of demarcation there, because you are going to grow your audience more quickly, at least in social media, if people get the vibe right away. If you have a really kind of messy not messy but just incohesive collection where it's like oh, this is what you know, people just naturally aren't drawn to that. They want to kind of understand. Like whenever pay attention to when you start following people, it's because you see something that was in the algorithm that you thought was cool. Then you go to their profile and if the profile is consistent with the thing you liked, you generally follow them.

33:35

So it's. But if it's like if you have to search to try and figure out, like oh, was that just a one hit wonder and maybe I won't follow them because this other stuff doesn't look like stuff I like. So you know, particularly if you are that person that I just imagine that I just made up that like is the rock star, you know, music photographer and the newborn photographer Like those audiences are so vastly different that you're going to want to separate it out, and I don't know, maybe you can separate it out really well on the same website, but just social media might be something that you want to split up Absolutely.

34:09 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

And that's 1000%. So I'll be working in that myself because I know I don't like it. I almost I look at my feed and I'm like I'm talking about photography for sports and tomorrow it's like Christmas minis and it doesn't. It's not telling the story that I want to tell. It's very confusing. So I would that would probably be the and also I think when we look at our own profile grids, which maybe we're doing more than anybody else, it does tell that story.

34:37

Am I being consistent? So if I have move all my sports over, I can say, yeah, that's what I want to see, and I want someone else at a glance to look at my grid and go all look at all these awesome photos and you get into a whole another topic on on how to get the algorithm to work for you there, because it's that's another thing I've been doing with all the social media. You wouldn't know it from my own Instagram account because, of course, I'm too busy doing it for everybody else, but Absolutely playing with different you know is it a real that's going to catch their attention?

35:07

Is it carousels this week? Is it all the different ways to make that more effective will get people there in this day.

35:13 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

So yeah, yeah, that's what you want. You want to look through all your work, fall love right Totally, and I think it's easier to do that. Then they can, and then they have to have us. Yeah, and then they have to have a, then they have to have your brand, and then you must work with me.

35:28 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Isn't that the best I love, when someone says I've been following you and I just haven't reached out? You don't realize how many people. Well done that. I've been following you for a year now and I just realized I have to finally pull the trigger. Yes, yes. So how do we get them there sooner? We got it. We got to help them along that journey. Right, have all these reasons like reach out sooner, We'll make it work.

35:48 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

So and it's the classic, just just to speak to this, like separating different offers and audiences, like it's the classic people need to see things multiple, multiple, multiple times before they buy, and especially if it's expensive, like my own purchasing habits.

36:02

It's the same thing and it's like I'll see something and then I'll be like hmm, and then I'll see it again. I'll be like hmm, and then you know, it might be four or five, six times and there's a ton of research out that you can read on that exact thing. But if you are one day talking about Christmas minis and the next day talking about, like you know, like Branding headshots, the audience is not only going to get confused but they're also going to be disinterested, probably in half of it, and then also that redundancy isn't going to have the same effect. So it's like that idea of like One thing, one offer, over and over and over again, that's how you really truly will grow. Your audience is just like hitting that nail on the head over, because they are seeing a bajillion other things that day in addition to your thing.

36:47 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

So Absolutely but now you just maybe like now I'm more excited than ever to start it because I was just thinking I bet people don't even you know they might see my photos and they're like how do I book you for a sports session?

37:00 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

or a.

37:00 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Documentary and I'm not making it very clear.

37:03

Yeah and I don't know that I have it clear either. And so, like you said, you almost have to make it so easy. Press this button, connect with me will make it work, you know, and and then they could go to you know website or a blog and it'd get more information. Yeah, but having all of that out there, so, yeah, absolutely, there's so much other than taking, just getting the photos started. Then there's all that again, that contract work, natalie, go back to that, just Bringing it home. I need a salesman. Yeah, most of us are not natural born sales people. I would say on the creative side there are a few, and that's why they're really good at what they do. You're good at that. Oh, thanks, I don't feel like I am. I'm always like I mean, you know, we'll work in a little. You know, Maybe a trade again done at that. You know I don't do that anymore, but that's how I was always approached. Somebody's like can we trade? I don't want a massage. It wasn't already paying for one.

38:11 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

But I don't want, I don't need anyone to fix my car. No, I think trading is great if it works out, but if you're feeling forced into it, it's it's not good. And yeah, selling is, yeah, it's a whole thing. But back to like, back to that thing, is like you know, if you can just focus on One audience at a time and if you do have to bring people back to just one website, you could even just have the main page, be like Newborns and live music, and then they click through and they're not getting any of the other.

38:41

I used to say this about way back in the day when we all had business cards instead of like QR codes and social media accounts.

38:50

One of the first things that I was talking about in my In the escape the cubicle class was being careful about what you put on the back of your business cards.

38:59

If you're a photographer that has a number of photos that you like, or one photo that you like, or whatever, because I Would have like a cute picture of a kid and then I'd have a really cute picture of, like a couple at a wedding, and the first of all, if I was talking to someone that was interested in Family photography and I only had the wedding card.

39:21

It seemed weird. Or vice versa, if, like, someone was like, oh, are you a wedding photographer? And I had just this baby, they were like, cool, but that's not really what I'm after, you know. So again that showing what you want to sell. And then what if the person that you're giving the card to doesn't like the photo that you chose, because that's the first thing that they're seeing of your work is this one photo that you happen to like but they might have zero connection with and they're so much less likely to follow through. So I mean, if you are gonna have a business card, I recommend just not having a photo on it and just making them go to your site. That was a tangent, but you know.

40:01 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Oh it actually. It makes a ton of sense, especially in this day and age when you can have them go directly to your site. Socials, all of that were. Hopefully you have a Plotter of images yeah, that's all we have really. I mean, that's the first sell for us is our images and that's yeah, that is definitely something. Well, and here we are. We're at November, so all of us probably have a year in review slide show we can put up that the First thing they see.

40:31 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

I used to be so Diligent with those and now you just reminded me that I think I'm gonna do one again this year.

40:38 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

I have to say if anybody is like, the easiest way to do these is reels and tic-tac. I have completely gone away from all the heavy lifting software that you have to like Drag them all in and and I mean the creative freedom that you could just use with the template and I can throw up there in about an hour. Yeah, amazing that, yeah, has really revolutionized how I do things. So I do have a tic-tac account again.

41:03 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Super disjointed, it's something that I had to get better at, because I was just playing, you know, I was like yeah.

41:09 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

And then I'm like oh, it's amazing and it's a time sock, but it also it's one of the few that you do not have to worry about your algorithm as much. I'm sorry, like your like your grid. I should say Silver, an algorithm next. But you can get on people's for you pages a lot easier and it's just, it's a machine and if you are in that, that Wedding or I'd say the younger group, for sure you have to be there, you have to have a presence. Us older people are like what? So it's hilarious. And I'm sure there's something even newer than that that someone's gonna tell you like, are you still doing tic-tac?

41:46 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

And you know, there's all these other ways well, and for people that just got stressed out, thinking about having to be somewhere else.

41:53

Yeah right, I strongly recommend. Just, you mentioned templates. So, like you, there's a bunch of apps and stuff out there where you can do Templates for reels and stuff and, like you, just do it once and put it on Instagram, put it on Facebook, put it on tic-tac. It doesn't have to be that you go to each platform and make a whole new thing, and I'm sure you already know that. But if you're stressed out, like, just see what you can repurpose as best you can, and if and if you can't, you know, then don't worry about it. But it's actually quite easy to just repurpose stuff for multiple places.

42:24 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Oh, oh, absolutely, and I do that as well. I'll take it through, I'll make it in one and I just keep repurposing it everywhere. So if you do follow me, you'll get bored. But, but Absolutely, I am not gonna recreate the wheel every time. I just meant it was so simple and I like tic-tac's version matter of how to create it's got. Some things are a little bit nicer, but then sometimes it's nice to have like a Instagram that doesn't let you make as many changes, so you kind of have to just do whatever. Never, therefore, and again, at the end of the day, people what are what looking at this for 30 seconds? So, unfortunately, we put in all this time and effort and that's something else I would like to stress, even if it's not perfect. Just it's really about being consistent in content that you're gonna just get out there.

43:13

So if it's, it's, people are gonna look at it unfortunately for 30 seconds, but the more you're there, the more they'll see it so.

43:20 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

I also have to say that it needs to come from the heart, like there, there's some kind of thing in your body and in your soul and in your creative spirit that translates differently when you put something out there that you are excited about versus something that you feel like you have to post Because you haven't posted in a couple of days right. A great example of this is so.

43:40

I have three Instagram accounts because of Jennings photo photo business help and my tarot work and they're all very different things and I I don't think they intermingle well. I've thought about it a lot but of all those accounts, maybe if you don't know this about me, I'm a total plant and animal nut, like I just love animals and plants so much. I'm probably in the wrong career but I I do a lot of. You know I've done a lot of volunteering with animal shelters and rehab centers and stuff and I'll probably someday have like a Hobby farm or something.

44:10

But anyway, the most popular thing that I've put on Instagram and tiktok out of all of the things I do was a real about me live catching a mouse in my house and and showing people how to humanely release the mouse and it's so cute. He's like poking his little head out and looking around and checking out his new environment. Then he climbs up on a log and jumps into the shrubs and I mean it like it was. Like within an hour it had like 800 views on tiktok and like 40 comments or something and I was like man, like I love this stuff, but apparently other people really love this stuff, so I think you know, sometimes the stuff that's like closest to your heart is Gonna be the stuff that goes the farthest with your audience.

45:03 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Oh, people can feel that Absolutely. My dog has an Instagram account and he gets way more likes and views than I do. Every time it's like Yep. I love what kids and puppies right. So I love was so much fun to post.

45:17 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

I mean, I miss her to death and I still post some of my faves, but it was like I just took my whole phone was photos of her and so it was just easy to share them and people loved them because I Think, as I came from the heart, you know.

45:29 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Yep, and they get to know, you right that I think that's something that is Is so fun. I mean, people know me as Probably my kids mom because I show a lot of them. It's like you, you're saying I, I, I probably show too much of them because I feel really comfortable taking photos of my kids and sharing for the world that. You know, this is, this is what sports photography can look like Mm-hmm and I, I get held up because one that's for the other and it's like a paid thing. I feel like it's I don't.

46:03

There's just something different about that. I don't know why. I don't know why there should be any different differentiation, but it's like yep, so then I, but then I come back to maybe I should show more of my work Instead of just my kids, but it but then that goes back to you saying your passion, what are you passionate about? And I can probably throw up a lot more sports photography, just because For me, that's something I'm passionate about, that that's something that I just caught in the moment. I didn't create the moment. Does that make sense? So for me, I love, I love that versus Sometimes with families you have to curate that or create it, kind of set it up a little bit, yeah, a little yeah, a little bit.

46:42

And then there's moments where I'm hyper critical, like, oh, I should have told mom to put her hand down. Or oh, hope that, you know, dad doesn't mind that I caught, you know, the top of his head and he's got a receding hairline, I mean there's. So there's a lot of things to think about that I overthink. But sports, like, well, that's how it was, you know yeah, I called hard and I got that, so anyway.

47:07 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, no, that's cool. One final thing I'll say in this sort of smorgasbord of sharing today which is exactly what I wanted to do for episode 400, like just what's on your mind I bought a Polaroid camera. Well, it's funny, because for a long time I was like I'd all just take it with my phone, and then I have the little Polaroid printer, like the instax printer, and so I could make Polaroids without having to take a Polaroid camera everywhere. But From I'm reading Rick Rubin's the creative act and it's Phenomenal. It'll be on my bookshelf forever. You can crack it open and read one paragraph and blow your own mind. It's like one of those like densely rich books. That's amazing for creatives.

47:48

But one of the Things that I've been trying to challenge myself to do is just use things a little differently. So I've been like today you can't see this listening, but I took this Polaroid of I'm showing you, lisa of a pumpkin on my front step. Just, it's just a pumpkin, but I liked the light and it was like I'm gonna take a picture of that, and then I ended up writing a poem about it and then I got some new ideas for like something I want to do with my website and I think my point is it's like Switching it up, whether you decide to just pick up a pencil and a piece of paper and draw a picture or whatever I think can be so useful for the creative act, for just getting your creativity moving and doing something different and and getting excited about what you're doing, you know.

48:34 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Absolutely. I do that with nature. If I don't get outside and get to walk around, it's like you just get stuck in one thing, and I love that you just share that, because it just got me thinking oh yep, I have to go when I walk around. Also, I got nine million other ideas and they actually seem good. Like I'm not just you know, I'll get ideas for sports or for whatever it is. I just think it's great. I like that you said they actually seem good.

48:58 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

That's okay, I'm gonna leave people with this, okay, I'm gonna share this with you too, but this is a part of the book that I took a picture of the passage and it's this idea of inspiration. So you were just saying, like you go for a walk and you're like, suddenly you have a million ideas, or like for me it's usually like right before I fall asleep, but he's he's talking about, about the gift that inspiration is that we don't always get inspired. I mean, so often we just have day after day where we're like, like I'm not, you know, where you're not really feeling, you're not feeling it, and so I think, if you can look at inspiration as a gift, it kind of shifts your perspective. So here's, here's what he says in terms of priority inspiration comes first, you come next, the audience comes last.

49:45

These are special moments and are to be treated with the utmost devotion. Our schedules are set aside. When these fleeting moments of illumination come, summon your strength and commit yourself on behalf of this offering, even when it arises at an inopportune time. This is the serious artists obligation. Oh, I like that Isn't that beautiful, and it's just that idea of like really honored your inspiration and do something about it. Like I wrote that poem you know, I used to. I did creative writing in college and I don't write that much anymore but I was like, standing, I was doing something else, basically, and I was like, ah, I gotta write this. I just and it's not probably super great, but it's like just honoring the fact that something dropped into my head and, you know, wants to come out.

50:30 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Yeah, absolutely lean into that and just figure out if that's something that you want to go towards. I think is always. I mean, I jump around a little bit too much, but I think that you figure it out pretty quickly and that all of these things are gifts. We can figure out what, which one, we Want to go to, and it's all gonna bring you to the place that you're gonna be the best, and you'll know it because, like you said, you'll be passionate about it and you'll say I'll start to work and people will start to see it.

50:58 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

He talks about. You said like you jump around too much, but he talks about these ideas as like seeds and so, like, like that Poem or something might be like a seed and I might never, ever come back to it, but if you have like a lot of seeds to choose from, like some of them have the potential to like keep growing and keep growing and Keep growing, and so it's like at least get them out there, like at least start collecting all your little seeds. And then and it don't feel bad that you're going in a bunch of different directions I think we have this like Western, like Productivity, like linear thing, where we're like if I get an idea, I have to make it into a business, and I think especially as a business. I mean, look at me, I'm doing like a bajillion things. It's like Just get it out there and don't judge it, and just do it, and then come back to it or don't.

51:46 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Yep, I agree, and in my own I've looked at that as these are all things that are training me, you know. So, like you're saying, whether they I make a million dollars off it or not, I'm training like oh that helped me learn that skill, or so if you can take something away from From each of those things, I think it's definitely worth trying. I'm gonna go sprinkle some seeds right now. All right, we're done with this.

52:11 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Let's just wrap it up then. Where can people follow you and where are you in the world? I mean, I know where you are, but I'm great at studios and everything is pretty much great.

52:20 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

ex reviews comm until I get my athletics Going will be great at athletics but um, or great at sports, I don't know yet I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go pick up some seeds and figure out which one.

52:29 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, I'm gonna be.

52:30 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

But yeah, I mean in South Minneapolis, hanging out pretty much by like Nicolmas anytime. If you see a lady with a red wagon, it's probably me. Oh, there's a tool for you. Don't care on that heavy camera bag anymore, just put it in a wagon.

52:48 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

You have, like it's like a collapsible wagon, though right it is, yeah goes in the back of my, my car and I. Then my client's Junk in it.

52:57 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Yeah, I, I love. I need to just put great at photography on the side. Yeah, yeah brand that shit. I know there, I mean and have never done, why not?

53:14 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

right if you see a lady with a red wagon.

53:19 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

You know, I showed up to something else and someone else had the red wagon too. I was like I knew it. I knew I had something going. She was a mom actually she wasn't in photography, but it was at my photography session. She had the same wagon.

53:34 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

She had the same wagon she did.

53:36 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

I mean, everybody can buy this one, but we both brought it to the session, which was hilarious, or both Imagine.

53:46 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

I am imagining it Great and we'll have links to your stuff in the show notes as well. But thanks for just chatting away with me on this 400th episode. I think it's fun. I didn't want to have a plan and I didn't. I just wanted to cover whatever popped up, whatever we've learned, and hopefully there's a gem in here for someone listening, which which was, you know, my goal. Oh, one thing I forgot, and I just remembered what is one thing like a quote or a, something motivational, or something like that has helped you on On this journey, or that helps you in life, or you know something that you Kind of turn to, that I was pixie up, or that you want to share with people. That's like, or just something you've learned, or just you know advice.

54:32 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Well, one thing I've learned is that, well, I've gone away from photography and I've come back Every time, and what keeps me coming back is it's the one thing I have never tired of I I smile every day when you say there's something that you know like. You get to do what you love, and this is Genuinely something I love. I will work harder for this than just about anything else. And so when I think back to what I, what I've done and I hate I should it's a strong word but something that doesn't bring me joy, that I don't wake up to every day ready, you know, excited, that's what brings me back here and and it's been there's I get burnt out for sure. So I always think about well, what would you rather be doing? And I can't think of anything. There's nothing on earth, literally, that.

55:23 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

I'd rather and.

55:24 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

I always should have fold. I feel like I can fold so many things into photography, whether it's there's the other side of me that Loves to to try new things, travel around our state, find out what's amazing. Maybe it's other small businesses, whatever it is, and I want to tell the world about it, and I kind of do that through, maybe, visual Means. Of course, I'd like a photo of it and I want to tell everyone you know you have to go check out this trail with your kids.

55:52

It's an amazing hike, but it's still encapsulated within photography and its purist, which is I want to go take amazing photos there. It's like having a little treasure, little treasure for myself, and I remember these times and I just that's not something I necessarily will have a career with, but it's a side passion, so I bring all of these things. So I guess I don't know if there's a Ma, a quote in there or anything to say other than do what you love, find that niche that brings you. If it's not making you happy, then then just, you know, try something else, yeah.

56:26 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, that's. That's really lovely because it we can get lost in the business so easily and in the money and everyone's in a different situation and sometimes you just got to make the money but like, if it's not, I mean, this is what happened with me in weddings. You know, like I will never close that door. You might hear me next year saying like I'm doing weddings again. I doubt it, but it's just I. I noticed myself showing up and not Having my cup filled. I started showing up with like a little knot in my stomach and a little bit of dread and a little bit of just like oh, and I think If you're noticing that and something that you're doing, you know like, switch it up or don't, don't keep doing it because it's not, it's not worth it. You know, absolutely you'll you'll figure it out.

57:14 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

If it, if photography is your, is your medium, you'll figure it out. There's so many. I think we just covered what like six of the main, like six fields and when you and I've done them all right to weddings, to, you know, maybe not everything, I know there's plenty more out there, but probably some of the main ones. For, like I mean, I just yesterday went on, you know, there's, like mama talk, a Facebook group, and whenever one person says are there any family photographers out there, I mean it blows up like a hundred comments. I'm like that is my, that's my field, that's that's my competition out there. And I have still put my name on just in case somebody else is reading this thread and I'll get the call sometimes and I think okay.

58:00

So it's still it. You can there. You can be a lot of competition out there, but you can still find that joy and saying you know what? That's okay, though we're all boosting each other up and we're all here and I don't look at them actually as competition. I think, hey, I Can't do everybody's, everybody's photography this year, and we're gonna figure this out and, and then, when it becomes too much, hopefully I have there's other like again with sports and other things. There's, there's something out there for everybody. It really is.

58:28 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, oh yeah. You're only one person, so like you can't, how far are you gonna compete it? Like until you burn out? You know you can't worry about other people being in the same field, because you can only handle so much. You know, and and there's enough of it it's gonna keep coming.

58:44 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

Yeah, like you said, it'll fill your cup or it won't, or, and maybe some people just need to travel a ton and they take those amazing photos and that's enough for them to, to, to be a just a photographer. That that's their main focus. I think we all just will find it and I'll just keep keep grinding after what it is, whether it's full-time, part-time or Just get, just get out there and do it. I would say, if anything, that's the, that's the really the fun. The joy is finding what it is that brings that spark and that joy.

59:16 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, perfect. Well, thank you. This is extra extra long episode for 400, and I'm so glad to share it with you because We've been on this journey together for a long time.

59:28 - Lisa Quinlan (Host)

So Yay, would want to be here with anybody else. Natalie, this is awesome.

59:34 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Oh, you're having me You're so nice. Okay, I'm turning this off now. Okay, bye everybody.