Before we get into today's

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episode, a little context.

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This year we filmed a 10-part documentary series

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called "Anabaptist Origins,"

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which explores the first 100

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years of the Anabaptist story.

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And for that, we did an

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entire episode on Michael Sattler

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and the Schleitheim Confession.

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For that episode, we

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filmed a roundtable discussion

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about what is the Schleitheim Confession

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and why does it still matter

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to us today, 500 years later?

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And that discussion is today's episode.

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We had the privilege of

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filming at a beautiful castle

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in the Czech Republic, the same castle

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where the Anabaptist

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theologian Hubmaier was imprisoned

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before his execution and the same city

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where the first Hutterites were expelled

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for not taking up the sword.

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Be sure to check out the

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Anabaptist Origins YouTube channel

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for more content like this

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and enjoy this special episode.

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All right, so let's get deeper with Schleitheim.

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We talked some more of the backdrop, the context,

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things like that, but let's get into

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the actual confession itself.

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And the first question I

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have is why should we even care

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about a confession that was

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written almost 500 years ago,

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1527? Mm-hmm.

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Is it relevant?

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Does it matter?

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Why should we care? I'll let you go.

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That's remarkable to me how much it matters.

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I look at the Schleitheim

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Confession and it's good stuff.

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I mean, you can tell the things that were written

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in the times, but the topics that it covers,

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and we'll, I guess, be

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getting into a few of these,

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but they're very pertinent.

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And I find it something that really is a good way

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to look at the things that

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are important to a brotherhood.

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And the whole idea of coming together

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and doing things like this to settle issues

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is important even of itself.

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But yeah, yeah, I like it.

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So could you give us a broad outline

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of what is it even about?

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What is Schleitheim about?

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Well, some of it you can actually miss.

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First of all, they, in the cover letter,

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it's clear they're Trinitarian.

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So they are not disagreeing

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with their Catholic forefathers

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on the Trinity or the

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divinity and manhood of Christ,

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nor, and the Protestants have the same view.

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So this is, these seven things are where,

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there's two points to them.

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One is, this is where we disagree

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with the Catholics and Protestants.

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And the other is, in the

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confusion of the beginning,

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this is where some of the

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people who want to be Anabaptists,

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who have been

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re-baptized, have made some mistakes.

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So it's about two things.

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And there's a real, the real significance

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to what they chose and even the order.

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The order is important.

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First of all, there's baptism.

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That's how you get into the church.

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That's how you receive the

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grace of God through Jesus.

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The Anabaptists

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recognized that order was necessary

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and problems could come up.

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Either a person came into the church,

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not fully believing or slipped back.

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And so they, the next one is,

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what do you do when that happens?

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It's the ban.

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And they also say during,

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when they write about the ban,

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it should be done just before communion.

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So that brings us to the next one.

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So baptism brings us into the church.

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There may be a time when

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someone needs to be excommunicated.

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A discipline that's in there.

Or disciplined, yeah.

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But the next thing is when you're in the church,

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the baptism plants you

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into a new community of love.

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That's the breaking of bread.

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And what do these people do?

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So that's one, two, three,

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baptism, ban, breaking of bread.

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And so what do these people do?

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They separate themselves

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from the evils of the world.

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That's four, five pastors in the church.

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They were people that believed in order.

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And so the question of what does a pastor do?

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And then two things that apply to everyone

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who is baptized and part of the church,

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do we take up the sword?

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This was a huge question at

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this time for many reasons.

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So I'll just leave it at that for right now.

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And then Jesus and James said, don't swear.

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So is that, how do you take that?

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Exactly, are we gonna do or not.

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That's one that came up all the time.

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Oh, and the government

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almost always required an oath.

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So that seventh point is the oath,

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which would have been a

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pretty big thing at the time,

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right, where you're

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having to swear allegiance to,

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blah, blah, blah, this and that.

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So that's the number, the order's important,

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and we can talk about it from there.

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Yeah, well, so let's go through each of those

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and hit a little more detail of

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why were these particular seven chosen?

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What were they communicating about that?

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What do they say?

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What's the context around it?

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So let's go back to baptism.

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So point number one, baptism.

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Get into some more detail,

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whichever one of you would like to go first.

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Well, it says something very beautiful.

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This baptism is for the person

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who is willing to walk in the resurrection.

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I love that line.

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And so you are committed, and they make it clear,

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this doesn't mean you're perfect.

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That's an accusation that

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was lobbed at the Anabaptists

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over and over again.

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And they're not claiming perfection.

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They're saying that God gives us grace

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if we come into the body of Christ,

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and that's our intention,

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to walk in the resurrection.

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And then there is another line

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which hits the nail on the head

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of what the problem is.

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What's problematic with both the Catholic

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and the Protestant churches?

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And Sattler used language

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that I wouldn't use today

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for a couple of reasons.

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Well, he says, infant baptism is the first

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and chief abomination of the Pope.

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Oh, that's really strong.

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It's very strong.

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It's very strong.

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And I do think it is the problem.

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And I wanna tell you a story.

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Years and years and years ago, I was at work,

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I was working just outside of DC,

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and for lunch, a bunch of

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us were eating together,

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and I was looking at the Washington Post

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after I finished eating.

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And the US Catholic

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Bishops Conference was meeting,

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and I saw a headline.

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So I started reading this,

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and maybe two paragraphs down,

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one of the bishops got up and said,

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why do we have so many pagans in the pew?

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And I said, I read this to

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everybody that was there,

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and I said, I wish I were there.

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I'd raise my hand, it's

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because you baptize babies.

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It doesn't keep someone from later committing.

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And if you're a Catholic,

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you never think about getting baptized then.

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So I don't think

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everybody who's in a Catholic pew

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is a pagan, and this

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bishop didn't think so either.

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But if you baptize babies,

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everybody thinks I'm a Christian already.

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It is the chief abomination.

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Now, and so it leads to

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all kinds of horrible things.

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That's amazing.

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You know, again, this

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idea of faith being required,

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not an empty sacrament,

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not something that you're just doing in ritual,

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and it automatically guarantees it,

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but is there at least some

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kind of faith in a person

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that makes them ask and receive this?

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So I have the quote you mentioned,

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and I agree with you, Brother Stephen,

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that this line I have highlighted

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to walking in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

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Listen to how the context is it.

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It's actually beautiful.

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It said, "Baptism shall be given to all those

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who have learned

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repentance and ammendment of life,

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and who believe truly that

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their sins are taken away by Christ,

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and to all those who walk in

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the resurrection of Jesus Christ

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and wish to be buried with him in death,

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so that they may be resurrected with him,

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and to all those who with this significance

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request it of us and demand it for themselves."

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And so I agree with you.

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I think this idea,

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they're not looking at salvation

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as a just one-time entry into the club.

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You either did this as a

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baby, or you did it as an adult,

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you said the sinner's prayer, you did whatever.

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It's those who are signing up

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to walking in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

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The power of the resurrection, death to yourself,

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alive unto Christ Jesus, and

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literally walking in there.

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I agree with you.

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I think that's a beautiful statement there.

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So yeah, baptism, number one.

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I like your emphasis there on the order.

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Well then that takes us right naturally

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into point number two, the ban.

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So if you've got a front

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door that's getting you in,

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then if you've then turned

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away, what's the back door?

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Yeah.

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Well, the very fact they have a ban

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says they're not expecting

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that anyone's going to be living

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a perfect life, but they're recognizing

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there may be a need to discipline someone.

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Anabaptism is about discipling,

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but sometimes you come to the place

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where you have to discipline.

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And so they very specifically are saying

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a person who won't listen,

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this is mentioned in the article,

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a person who won't listen to the brotherhood

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after the third admonition should be excluded

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so that he understands the

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severity of what he has done.

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And so it's not to make a perfect church,

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a church that where no one is sinning,

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it's to make a church

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where everyone's trying to walk

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in their desire is to walk in the resurrection.

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Now it's interesting in the letters,

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that we will read later when he's in prison,

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he's actually appealing to

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them to be doing this very gently

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and not to forget love and to do this.

276

00:09:39,662 --> 00:09:42,081

And it's true that this was a point

277

00:09:42,081 --> 00:09:43,332

for the reformers as well.

278

00:09:43,332 --> 00:09:44,083

From what I understand,

279

00:09:44,458 --> 00:09:45,793

one of the marks of a church

280

00:09:45,793 --> 00:09:47,545

in the Reformed setting is to

281

00:09:47,545 --> 00:09:49,130

have some sort of discipline

282

00:09:49,338 --> 00:09:51,340

that it's not supposed to be

283

00:09:51,340 --> 00:09:53,175

just this church full of pagans

284

00:09:53,175 --> 00:09:55,553

that we do have a disciplined life.

285

00:09:55,553 --> 00:09:57,179

And so this was a cry in the Reformation

286

00:09:57,430 --> 00:09:59,056

to have something like this,

287

00:09:59,056 --> 00:10:01,767

but this does become a contentious point, right?

288

00:10:01,767 --> 00:10:03,978

Was they work out the kinks in this,

289

00:10:03,978 --> 00:10:04,603

we're going to pick this

290

00:10:04,603 --> 00:10:05,980

up when we get in Holland

291

00:10:05,980 --> 00:10:08,607

and particularly this does become an issue.

292

00:10:09,608 --> 00:10:11,777

I have a quotes here and I'll just read it.

293

00:10:11,777 --> 00:10:13,696

Just a piece of this one for the ban.

294

00:10:14,947 --> 00:10:16,282

From the Schleitheim Confession, I guess,

295

00:10:16,699 --> 00:10:17,325

article number two.

296

00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:20,620

"The ban shall be employed with all those

297

00:10:20,620 --> 00:10:22,705

"who have given themselves to the Lord

298

00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:24,999

"to walk in his commandments.

299

00:10:25,958 --> 00:10:26,834

"And with those who are

300

00:10:26,834 --> 00:10:29,295

baptized into one body of Christ

301

00:10:29,879 --> 00:10:31,672

"and are called brethren or sisters,

302

00:10:32,423 --> 00:10:35,301

"and yet slip sometime or fall into error and sin

303

00:10:35,718 --> 00:10:38,179

"and are unaware of it or fail

304

00:10:38,179 --> 00:10:39,639

"for some reason to be corrected.

305

00:10:40,139 --> 00:10:42,850

"The same shall be admonished twice privately

306

00:10:43,476 --> 00:10:44,977

"and the third time publicly

307

00:10:45,311 --> 00:10:46,687

"according to the command of Christ.

308

00:10:47,104 --> 00:10:48,189

"And if he will not amend

309

00:10:48,189 --> 00:10:49,649

after the third admonition,

310

00:10:49,982 --> 00:10:52,026

"he shall be banned as a false brother

311

00:10:52,151 --> 00:10:53,277

"and cast out of the church."

312

00:10:54,779 --> 00:10:56,947

Yeah, so they meant business.

313

00:10:57,740 --> 00:10:58,491

They did that.

314

00:10:59,241 --> 00:11:01,535

But also maybe I'm getting

315

00:11:01,535 --> 00:11:02,578

this off track here a little,

316

00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:04,997

but the other groups were saying,

317

00:11:05,539 --> 00:11:07,083

instead of banning you, we're gonna like

318

00:11:07,458 --> 00:11:10,127

actually literally exile you, kill you, beat you.

319

00:11:10,127 --> 00:11:10,586

That's right.

320

00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:11,879

Isn't there some contrast

321

00:11:11,879 --> 00:11:12,838

here that's worth noting?

322

00:11:13,130 --> 00:11:14,423

Yeah, they mention this.

323

00:11:14,924 --> 00:11:16,217

Okay, because it's like, wait a minute.

324

00:11:16,884 --> 00:11:19,261

Yeah, we may ban you from our congregation,

325

00:11:19,804 --> 00:11:21,555

but it's not like we're gonna kill you.

326

00:11:21,555 --> 00:11:23,265

Whereas the Catholics and Protestants

327

00:11:23,265 --> 00:11:25,226

were actually doing that to the Anabaptists.

328

00:11:25,226 --> 00:11:25,768

There's some interesting

329

00:11:25,768 --> 00:11:27,019

contrasts going on there.

330

00:11:27,436 --> 00:11:28,854

And it was interesting you brought in.

331

00:11:29,021 --> 00:11:30,314

They did exile sometimes.

332

00:11:30,481 --> 00:11:32,024

They didn't always execute,

333

00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,151

but they didn't treat people well.

334

00:11:34,402 --> 00:11:35,861

Yeah, like they would maybe exile you

335

00:11:35,861 --> 00:11:37,863

and take all your possessions in your land

336

00:11:37,863 --> 00:11:38,656

or something and say--

337

00:11:38,697 --> 00:11:39,740

And when we get down to the sword.

338

00:11:40,533 --> 00:11:41,867

It's pretty aggressive.

339

00:11:42,701 --> 00:11:43,619

And the Anabaptists say,

340

00:11:43,619 --> 00:11:44,954

well, we're not gonna do that.

341

00:11:45,746 --> 00:11:46,455

That's a great point.

342

00:11:46,872 --> 00:11:48,457

And I think it explicitly states that.

343

00:11:48,666 --> 00:11:50,209

So when it deals with the sword

344

00:11:50,209 --> 00:11:51,710

and how they use this for their punishment

345

00:11:51,710 --> 00:11:53,087

with the church state situation,

346

00:11:53,921 --> 00:11:55,506

all we have for our maximum thing

347

00:11:55,506 --> 00:11:57,091

is to take you out of the church.

348

00:11:57,842 --> 00:11:59,343

You're right, to make the distinction.

349

00:11:59,718 --> 00:12:02,263

That was a pretty big difference, yeah.

350

00:12:03,305 --> 00:12:04,390

Baptism was number one.

351

00:12:04,765 --> 00:12:05,724

Ban is point number two.

352

00:12:06,016 --> 00:12:08,394

And point number three is the breaking of bread.

353

00:12:09,353 --> 00:12:10,396

So talk to me about that,

354

00:12:10,396 --> 00:12:13,941

because this was a big point of diverting

355

00:12:13,983 --> 00:12:15,860

from both the Catholics and the Protestants,

356

00:12:16,193 --> 00:12:16,777

at least initially.

357

00:12:17,278 --> 00:12:17,820

Yeah, initially.

358

00:12:18,487 --> 00:12:20,406

Well, and like I said, the order matters.

359

00:12:20,406 --> 00:12:22,032

So you get into the church through baptism.

360

00:12:22,741 --> 00:12:24,994

The ban is to make a person

361

00:12:24,994 --> 00:12:26,912

aware of the need for discipline.

362

00:12:28,122 --> 00:12:30,040

Hopefully nobody has to be banned.

363

00:12:30,416 --> 00:12:32,626

And it mentioned specifically

364

00:12:32,626 --> 00:12:34,378

under the article of the ban

365

00:12:34,879 --> 00:12:36,964

that it will be done just before we break bread.

366

00:12:37,673 --> 00:12:39,842

So we make sure that the whole congregation

367

00:12:40,634 --> 00:12:42,470

is walking in the resurrection.

368

00:12:43,471 --> 00:12:45,139

And then, so the breaking of the bread,

369

00:12:45,139 --> 00:12:47,224

the importance here is that

370

00:12:47,224 --> 00:12:48,934

they don't really get into,

371

00:12:50,519 --> 00:12:51,937

you can tell from what they write

372

00:12:51,937 --> 00:12:52,897

that they don't believe

373

00:12:52,897 --> 00:12:54,190

what the Catholics are saying.

374

00:12:54,774 --> 00:12:57,276

I don't think they go, trans-substantiation,

375

00:12:57,276 --> 00:12:58,194

they're not agreeing with that.

376

00:12:58,611 --> 00:12:59,361

They don't really get into

377

00:12:59,361 --> 00:13:01,822

detail about what they mean,

378

00:13:01,822 --> 00:13:03,991

except this is the body

379

00:13:03,991 --> 00:13:05,493

of Christ meeting together

380

00:13:05,910 --> 00:13:07,745

to break the bread and drink the wine

381

00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:09,705

to remember what he's done for us.

382

00:13:09,705 --> 00:13:12,333

So it could sound just memorialist.

383

00:13:12,958 --> 00:13:15,836

And there's no real clear

384

00:13:15,836 --> 00:13:18,005

wording that would make you know

385

00:13:18,005 --> 00:13:19,840

it's not or that it's only that.

386

00:13:20,549 --> 00:13:22,510

But the emphasis once again

387

00:13:22,510 --> 00:13:24,553

is we now have been planted

388

00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:25,804

into the body of Christ.

389

00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:27,681

And we're celebrating that.

390

00:13:28,057 --> 00:13:29,099

Yeah, I felt the same thing.

391

00:13:29,099 --> 00:13:29,850

When you look at it,

392

00:13:30,017 --> 00:13:31,685

I mean, you look at some other Sattler's records,

393

00:13:31,894 --> 00:13:33,187

particularly at the trial,

394

00:13:34,146 --> 00:13:35,397

you get a little more of this,

395

00:13:35,397 --> 00:13:37,900

but this slight time confession seems to be

396

00:13:38,317 --> 00:13:41,070

almost purposely vague on some of these nuances

397

00:13:41,904 --> 00:13:43,364

of it doesn't say.

398

00:13:43,364 --> 00:13:45,407

And I like when it comes to the mysteries,

399

00:13:45,407 --> 00:13:46,492

when it comes to the sacraments,

400

00:13:47,409 --> 00:13:50,579

since we don't know, I like these confessions

401

00:13:50,788 --> 00:13:52,873

that just say more of what

402

00:13:52,873 --> 00:13:54,458

it is and not what it's not.

403

00:13:55,459 --> 00:13:56,627

And I think that you're right,

404

00:13:56,710 --> 00:13:58,629

it brings this importance of this gathering.

405

00:13:59,046 --> 00:13:59,922

I have just a little excerpt

406

00:13:59,922 --> 00:14:02,258

here from them on this point.

407

00:14:03,175 --> 00:14:04,969

It says this, whoever has

408

00:14:04,969 --> 00:14:06,554

not been called to one faith,

409

00:14:07,179 --> 00:14:09,014

one baptism, one body

410

00:14:09,014 --> 00:14:11,976

cannot be made one bread with us.

411

00:14:12,351 --> 00:14:13,477

And is not to be admitted

412

00:14:13,477 --> 00:14:14,687

to the communion of the saints.

413

00:14:15,479 --> 00:14:20,609

And so that idea of this is my body

414

00:14:21,026 --> 00:14:24,113

and what that means to be coming together

415

00:14:24,363 --> 00:14:26,156

in a communion, worshiping

416

00:14:26,156 --> 00:14:28,117

God in spirit and in truth

417

00:14:28,242 --> 00:14:31,453

and in reality in that way meant more than them

418

00:14:31,453 --> 00:14:33,205

than just an empty ritual

419

00:14:33,205 --> 00:14:35,583

done in all the right procedures,

420

00:14:35,833 --> 00:14:39,044

but yet not having an effect on your life

421

00:14:39,044 --> 00:14:41,505

or a moral expectation of what you would have

422

00:14:41,505 --> 00:14:42,381

as you come together.

423

00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:43,716

One of the things they like

424

00:14:43,716 --> 00:14:45,593

to bring out in the early days

425

00:14:45,593 --> 00:14:46,719

is the 1 Corinthians 11

426

00:14:46,719 --> 00:14:48,470

passage where Paul is saying,

427

00:14:48,470 --> 00:14:50,139

"When you come together,

428

00:14:50,139 --> 00:14:52,224

it's not the Lord's Supper."

429

00:14:52,766 --> 00:14:54,977

So it's kind of a verse they would use

430

00:14:55,102 --> 00:14:57,229

against this concept of ex opere operato

431

00:14:57,229 --> 00:14:59,023

where just because you're coming together

432

00:14:59,023 --> 00:15:00,316

and claiming all the right things,

433

00:15:00,316 --> 00:15:02,151

I can assure you it's the Lord's Supper.

434

00:15:02,151 --> 00:15:03,652

They're quoting Paul back saying,

435

00:15:03,944 --> 00:15:05,571

"It's not the Lord's Supper."

436

00:15:05,946 --> 00:15:09,199

And so this idea of this pure gathering,

437

00:15:09,867 --> 00:15:10,909

or trying, not perfect,

438

00:15:11,327 --> 00:15:12,620

but just trying to walk

439

00:15:12,620 --> 00:15:13,871

together in the resurrection,

440

00:15:14,622 --> 00:15:15,664

that precious time is what

441

00:15:15,664 --> 00:15:16,540

they had for their communion.

442

00:15:16,832 --> 00:15:17,916

So I think that's special.

443

00:15:18,959 --> 00:15:20,127

So you had breaking of bread

444

00:15:20,336 --> 00:15:21,754

and then that goes straight

445

00:15:21,754 --> 00:15:24,340

into the separation component.

446

00:15:25,090 --> 00:15:26,425

So that fits very much with

447

00:15:26,425 --> 00:15:27,760

what you were just describing,

448

00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,054

this coming together, this group that,

449

00:15:30,971 --> 00:15:32,181

but also we're gonna be

450

00:15:32,181 --> 00:15:34,808

separate from the worldly system,

451

00:15:34,808 --> 00:15:35,476

the worldly empires,

452

00:15:35,726 --> 00:15:36,977

whatever, however they phrase that.

453

00:15:37,603 --> 00:15:38,562

Talk to me about that section.

454

00:15:38,979 --> 00:15:40,856

Because again, this is a major component,

455

00:15:41,106 --> 00:15:43,025

especially for Anabaptists today still.

456

00:15:45,235 --> 00:15:48,739

It would be interesting if Sattler had lived

457

00:15:48,864 --> 00:15:50,240

to see how his

458

00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,993

congregations would have worked this out

459

00:15:53,869 --> 00:15:54,703

under his leadership.

460

00:15:55,996 --> 00:15:57,414

But what is really clear is

461

00:15:57,414 --> 00:15:59,041

that everything is divided

462

00:15:59,625 --> 00:16:03,921

into two kingdoms, the good, the evil, the light,

463

00:16:04,213 --> 00:16:06,924

the darkness, and he just goes down

464

00:16:07,049 --> 00:16:09,134

through everything basically.

465

00:16:09,802 --> 00:16:13,847

And we are to avoid doing and not doing,

466

00:16:14,515 --> 00:16:16,392

depending on what those who

467

00:16:16,392 --> 00:16:18,185

are in the kingdom of darkness,

468

00:16:18,811 --> 00:16:20,729

depending on what they either do or don't do,

469

00:16:20,729 --> 00:16:21,689

we're to avoid that.

470

00:16:22,272 --> 00:16:25,359

Now that could become kind of,

471

00:16:25,359 --> 00:16:27,319

we base what we do or don't

472

00:16:27,319 --> 00:16:29,154

do off of what the world does.

473

00:16:29,154 --> 00:16:30,739

And I don't think he would have meant that.

474

00:16:31,281 --> 00:16:32,658

And maybe sometimes we've

475

00:16:32,658 --> 00:16:34,076

fallen into that a little bit,

476

00:16:34,493 --> 00:16:36,912

but rather his emphasis is

477

00:16:36,912 --> 00:16:38,580

what is really the light,

478

00:16:38,580 --> 00:16:39,748

what is really the darkness?

479

00:16:40,332 --> 00:16:45,546

And let's be willing to stand and be different.

480

00:16:45,796 --> 00:16:46,588

Yeah, that's amazing.

481

00:16:47,047 --> 00:16:50,217

So separation means that we are nonconformed

482

00:16:50,217 --> 00:16:50,843

to the world.

483

00:16:50,884 --> 00:16:51,301

That's amazing.

484

00:16:51,844 --> 00:16:53,387

It's interesting this whole two ways.

485

00:16:53,679 --> 00:16:56,598

It sounds like an echo of the Didache.

486

00:16:56,598 --> 00:16:58,434

Now the Didache wasn't even discovered at this time.

487

00:16:58,434 --> 00:17:00,060

So there was no way he was reading it,

488

00:17:00,352 --> 00:17:02,229

but just I guess reading the same scriptures,

489

00:17:02,896 --> 00:17:04,940

just this putting this, there are two ways,

490

00:17:05,190 --> 00:17:06,024

darkness and light.

491

00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:07,943

And it is a bit jarring

492

00:17:07,943 --> 00:17:09,903

to read the way he puts it,

493

00:17:09,903 --> 00:17:13,240

but if you look at 2 Corinthians chapter six,

494

00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,451

and then going in where it talks about,

495

00:17:15,993 --> 00:17:17,661

it is a New Testament principle.

496

00:17:18,620 --> 00:17:20,789

A lot of times people hardly even look at that,

497

00:17:20,789 --> 00:17:22,332

what Paul is telling us in

498

00:17:22,332 --> 00:17:23,584

2 Corinthians chapter six

499

00:17:23,584 --> 00:17:24,752

to come out from the

500

00:17:24,752 --> 00:17:26,336

world and do not be upon them.

501

00:17:26,837 --> 00:17:28,422

I mean, And do not be of them.

502

00:17:28,422 --> 00:17:31,133

And that idea that even comes with a promise

503

00:17:31,133 --> 00:17:33,260

that if you come out of the world,

504

00:17:33,677 --> 00:17:34,762

I will be a father to you

505

00:17:34,762 --> 00:17:36,221

and you'll be my sons and my daughters.

506

00:17:36,221 --> 00:17:37,765

And so those promises that are there,

507

00:17:38,098 --> 00:17:39,308

he then goes right into 2

508

00:17:39,308 --> 00:17:40,517

Corinthians chapter seven,

509

00:17:40,934 --> 00:17:44,021

having these promises, let's cleanse ourselves

510

00:17:44,021 --> 00:17:45,564

from all filthiness of the spirit,

511

00:17:45,939 --> 00:17:47,941

both the flesh and the spirit,

512

00:17:48,317 --> 00:17:49,693

perfecting ourselves in

513

00:17:49,693 --> 00:17:50,861

holiness and the fear of God.

514

00:17:51,403 --> 00:17:52,571

And so that's a paraphrase,

515

00:17:52,571 --> 00:17:55,449

but the idea is this concept,

516

00:17:55,449 --> 00:17:58,160

this New Testament concept means something.

517

00:17:58,160 --> 00:17:59,620

It's gonna mean something to different groups,

518

00:17:59,620 --> 00:18:00,662

even of the Anabaptists,

519

00:18:00,662 --> 00:18:02,164

we see the different

520

00:18:02,164 --> 00:18:03,290

groups doing this differently.

521

00:18:03,290 --> 00:18:05,083

It's gonna mean something today differently.

522

00:18:05,626 --> 00:18:07,044

But the question it asked me,

523

00:18:07,044 --> 00:18:08,670

it challenged me still to this day, okay,

524

00:18:09,296 --> 00:18:10,839

so how am I applying it then?

525

00:18:11,215 --> 00:18:13,717

How am I applying the separation from the world

526

00:18:14,635 --> 00:18:16,512

since that is a clearly biblical teaching

527

00:18:16,512 --> 00:18:17,846

and they're right to bring it

528

00:18:17,846 --> 00:18:19,431

out, in my own application?

529

00:18:19,848 --> 00:18:21,225

I think it still matters.

530

00:18:22,935 --> 00:18:24,520

So they go from that point to,

531

00:18:24,853 --> 00:18:26,188

they use the word shepherds, I believe,

532

00:18:26,688 --> 00:18:27,689

in the Schleitheim Confession

533

00:18:27,689 --> 00:18:29,817

or pastors, church leaders,

534

00:18:29,817 --> 00:18:30,359

and so forth.

535

00:18:30,984 --> 00:18:31,777

What were they saying in

536

00:18:31,777 --> 00:18:33,237

that point of the Confession?

537

00:18:33,904 --> 00:18:35,989

Well, the most obvious thing is,

538

00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:37,407

once again, we have order.

539

00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,536

So it's not just a free for all,

540

00:18:41,161 --> 00:18:42,871

they have order and it even says

541

00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,457

what they expected the shepherds to do.

542

00:18:46,291 --> 00:18:48,585

But I think there's even some deeper things here

543

00:18:48,627 --> 00:18:50,212

that I don't know if they just had,

544

00:18:51,505 --> 00:18:52,965

there's some issues here

545

00:18:52,965 --> 00:18:55,676

that are real and that they got,

546

00:18:56,176 --> 00:18:58,720

but they didn't necessarily spell out here.

547

00:18:58,720 --> 00:18:59,930

And one of those is,

548

00:19:00,389 --> 00:19:02,391

we believe in the priesthood of the believers.

549

00:19:03,976 --> 00:19:08,272

If the pastor is driven away or killed,

550

00:19:08,730 --> 00:19:10,399

we will immediately choose

551

00:19:10,399 --> 00:19:12,025

someone from the brothers

552

00:19:12,401 --> 00:19:13,277

to lead the church.

553

00:19:13,777 --> 00:19:15,028

This isn't [?] in that hour.

554

00:19:15,737 --> 00:19:17,573

Yeah, it says in that, I don't know that.

555

00:19:17,823 --> 00:19:18,699

Or that soon.

556

00:19:19,324 --> 00:19:22,619

Yeah, so when that happens,

557

00:19:24,037 --> 00:19:26,248

the church should be those

558

00:19:26,248 --> 00:19:27,249

who have really committed

559

00:19:27,457 --> 00:19:29,668

themselves to Christ and are seeking to walk

560

00:19:29,668 --> 00:19:32,796

in the resurrection and you can choose a brother

561

00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:35,924

from among them to lead the church.

562

00:19:36,675 --> 00:19:39,887

So one thing that's kind of implied,

563

00:19:40,262 --> 00:19:43,515

but not specified is we believe

564

00:19:44,391 --> 00:19:46,268

in the priesthood of the believers.

565

00:19:47,019 --> 00:19:48,186

And I think anybody at that

566

00:19:48,186 --> 00:19:49,771

time would have understood that

567

00:19:50,022 --> 00:19:53,233

because that was part of the problem

568

00:19:53,650 --> 00:19:56,486

with the peasant revolt that Luther had preached

569

00:19:56,695 --> 00:19:57,696

the priesthood of the believers

570

00:19:58,196 --> 00:19:59,489

and they were taking him seriously.

571

00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,075

And this is right around the same time.

572

00:20:02,618 --> 00:20:04,119

So I think that when they heard, you know,

573

00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,622

that a brother could stand in immediately

574

00:20:07,247 --> 00:20:09,291

for the pastor who was taken,

575

00:20:11,335 --> 00:20:12,669

that would have made perfect sense to them.

576

00:20:13,128 --> 00:20:15,464

We're all brothers, we're all priests.

577

00:20:16,214 --> 00:20:17,758

Any one of us could take that position.

578

00:20:18,216 --> 00:20:20,427

That's been something that's, that Anabaptism,

579

00:20:20,427 --> 00:20:22,721

particularly conservative Anabaptism has kept.

580

00:20:23,013 --> 00:20:25,515

I mean, it's kind of

581

00:20:25,515 --> 00:20:26,975

surprising when I started coming

582

00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:31,063

into the circles, how, you know, common brothers,

583

00:20:31,063 --> 00:20:33,106

and then you go and be ordained

584

00:20:33,106 --> 00:20:34,566

and then suddenly you take up that.

585

00:20:34,566 --> 00:20:38,195

And everybody should be getting, be willing

586

00:20:38,403 --> 00:20:41,073

and getting at a place where you could be used

587

00:20:41,073 --> 00:20:42,699

for that purpose in that servanthood.

588

00:20:43,158 --> 00:20:45,410

Here's a quote from the Schleitheim that says,

589

00:20:46,244 --> 00:20:48,580

"The shepherd in the church of God shall,

590

00:20:49,164 --> 00:20:50,499

according to the rule of Paul,

591

00:20:51,166 --> 00:20:53,460

be one who is of good repute among those

592

00:20:53,752 --> 00:20:55,003

who are outside the faith.

593

00:20:55,337 --> 00:20:56,838

He shall be a teacher, a

594

00:20:56,838 --> 00:20:58,590

admonisher, and a disciplinarian,

595

00:20:59,174 --> 00:21:00,676

a man with good understanding,

596

00:21:01,259 --> 00:21:02,719

rightly dividing the word of truth.

597

00:21:03,553 --> 00:21:05,889

He shall exhort the church and teach and admonish

598

00:21:05,889 --> 00:21:07,224

from the word and shall

599

00:21:07,224 --> 00:21:08,684

lead out in breaking of bread

600

00:21:08,976 --> 00:21:11,186

and in all things that the body of Christ needs."

601

00:21:11,937 --> 00:21:13,438

And then actually from that,

602

00:21:13,438 --> 00:21:15,983

then the congregation's response to them,

603

00:21:16,358 --> 00:21:19,987

it says that this brother should be supported

604

00:21:20,195 --> 00:21:22,656

by the church, which has chosen him,

605

00:21:22,948 --> 00:21:25,283

so that he may be able to serve at all times,

606

00:21:25,701 --> 00:21:28,203

whenever there is need, and to be present

607

00:21:28,203 --> 00:21:29,788

with all the brethren for teaching,

608

00:21:30,038 --> 00:21:31,164

admonition, and correction.

609

00:21:31,707 --> 00:21:33,959

And if he should be expelled, apprehended,

610

00:21:34,459 --> 00:21:36,795

or fall by the sword, another shall be ordained

611

00:21:36,795 --> 00:21:38,922

in his place, so that God's little flock

612

00:21:38,922 --> 00:21:40,716

and people may not be destroyed.

613

00:21:41,299 --> 00:21:41,883

It's interesting.

614

00:21:42,926 --> 00:21:44,928

What do you think it means by the support there?

615

00:21:44,928 --> 00:21:47,431

We're not talking about, you know,

616

00:21:47,431 --> 00:21:49,474

oh, they were on some salary or something, right?

617

00:21:50,267 --> 00:21:53,145

No, but as he had need because he put time

618

00:21:53,311 --> 00:21:56,314

into the church, we should take care of him.

619

00:21:56,314 --> 00:21:58,692

So, and that could mean, you know,

620

00:21:58,734 --> 00:22:00,068

if he's a farmer and has,

621

00:22:01,236 --> 00:22:02,779

can't get all of his work done,

622

00:22:02,779 --> 00:22:03,613

well, we should help him.

623

00:22:03,655 --> 00:22:03,989

Yeah.

624

00:22:03,989 --> 00:22:04,281

It's obvious.

625

00:22:05,032 --> 00:22:06,366

It even gives the context so

626

00:22:06,366 --> 00:22:07,617

that he could be ministering.

627

00:22:07,617 --> 00:22:07,868

Yeah.

628

00:22:07,868 --> 00:22:08,702

Yeah, yeah.

629

00:22:09,578 --> 00:22:10,579

We need to make sure we do that.

630

00:22:11,872 --> 00:22:13,457

Yeah, yeah, that's good.

631

00:22:13,790 --> 00:22:14,624

That's shepherds.

632

00:22:15,167 --> 00:22:17,461

And then it transitions to the next point,

633

00:22:17,461 --> 00:22:18,628

which is the sword.

634

00:22:19,171 --> 00:22:23,008

And this one, I think, is particularly important

635

00:22:23,216 --> 00:22:25,927

because some have said, oh, this teaching

636

00:22:26,178 --> 00:22:28,597

on not using the sword, you know, non-resistance,

637

00:22:29,264 --> 00:22:30,974

there was some ambiguity there,

638

00:22:30,974 --> 00:22:31,641

and there was lots of

639

00:22:31,641 --> 00:22:32,976

different approaches and opinions.

640

00:22:33,477 --> 00:22:34,186

But the Schleitheim

641

00:22:34,186 --> 00:22:37,522

confession is very straightforward

642

00:22:37,898 --> 00:22:40,067

on their teaching on the use of the sword.

643

00:22:40,692 --> 00:22:42,110

So talk me through that,

644

00:22:42,110 --> 00:22:43,695

and its significance for us today.

645

00:22:44,654 --> 00:22:47,783

Okay, well, on the ambiguous side,

646

00:22:49,034 --> 00:22:52,370

you know, we looked at Hubmaier,

647

00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:54,956

and Hubmaier did think there could be a time

648

00:22:54,956 --> 00:22:55,791

to pick up the sword.

649

00:22:55,916 --> 00:22:58,085

So that would be, he wasn't ambiguous,

650

00:22:58,085 --> 00:22:59,503

he was on the other side of the question.

651

00:23:00,420 --> 00:23:05,592

And then there is a North Anabaptist confession

652

00:23:06,635 --> 00:23:07,803

from a place called Wismar,

653

00:23:08,220 --> 00:23:11,807

and there it's, the document we have

654

00:23:12,099 --> 00:23:13,975

seems a little bit corrupted,

655

00:23:14,351 --> 00:23:16,186

but it does sound like that perhaps

656

00:23:17,145 --> 00:23:19,898

an Anabaptist Christian could be a watchman

657

00:23:20,023 --> 00:23:22,567

or defend a watchman on the walls, maybe.

658

00:23:23,151 --> 00:23:24,486

But it is ambiguous,

659

00:23:24,903 --> 00:23:26,613

and it's questionable whether

660

00:23:26,613 --> 00:23:28,615

we actually have the document

661

00:23:28,949 --> 00:23:29,741

the way they said it.

662

00:23:30,158 --> 00:23:34,454

But the vast majority of early Anabaptists

663

00:23:34,913 --> 00:23:36,456

followed through on what

664

00:23:36,456 --> 00:23:38,542

Conrad Grebel wrote about,

665

00:23:39,292 --> 00:23:41,837

as far as we should be sheep,

666

00:23:42,420 --> 00:23:44,047

not people that pick up the sword,

667

00:23:44,047 --> 00:23:45,423

but we should be sheep in this world.

668

00:23:46,049 --> 00:23:47,843

And then Schleitheim picks that right up

669

00:23:48,301 --> 00:23:50,428

with this section on the sword.

670

00:23:51,179 --> 00:23:53,431

And one of the interesting things it does

671

00:23:53,598 --> 00:23:56,643

is it actually brings the arguments

672

00:23:56,935 --> 00:23:59,437

that the non-Anabaptists would have.

673

00:24:00,522 --> 00:24:02,065

And then he will give an answer.

674

00:24:02,065 --> 00:24:03,900

The answer is, and then it,

675

00:24:04,109 --> 00:24:06,319

I think always refers back to Christ.

676

00:24:06,987 --> 00:24:08,905

Christ did this or Christ said this.

677

00:24:08,947 --> 00:24:09,239

Excellent.

678

00:24:09,698 --> 00:24:10,907

So like at one point,

679

00:24:11,199 --> 00:24:14,536

it says, "Should we defend the good?"

680

00:24:15,328 --> 00:24:17,789

And one point it says,

681

00:24:17,789 --> 00:24:19,541

"Well, if there's a disagreement about,

682

00:24:20,500 --> 00:24:21,376

let's say an inheritance."

683

00:24:22,294 --> 00:24:25,380

And it's pointed, they go right to Jesus said,

684

00:24:25,380 --> 00:24:27,507

That's not for him to do,

685

00:24:27,507 --> 00:24:29,134

and we should follow him.

686

00:24:29,593 --> 00:24:31,219

So this sword thing is kind

687

00:24:31,219 --> 00:24:32,220

of comes out of everything

688

00:24:32,762 --> 00:24:36,641

before this that we're called to something higher

689

00:24:37,309 --> 00:24:39,603

than what the churches like the Protestant

690

00:24:39,811 --> 00:24:41,062

and Catholic churches are saying.

691

00:24:41,396 --> 00:24:42,689

They're saying, "There is a

692

00:24:42,689 --> 00:24:45,150

time when you may have to fight

693

00:24:45,150 --> 00:24:46,443

and maybe kill someone."

694

00:24:46,735 --> 00:24:48,153

And the Anabaptists are saying,

695

00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:50,113

"Well, we wanna follow Christ.

696

00:24:50,113 --> 00:24:51,364

We wanna walk in the resurrection."

697

00:24:52,115 --> 00:24:55,410

And they give specifics about

698

00:24:55,410 --> 00:24:57,412

what their neighbors ask them

699

00:24:57,412 --> 00:24:59,539

and what Christ's answer would be.

700

00:24:59,956 --> 00:25:00,248

That's good.

701

00:25:00,582 --> 00:25:01,541

And what I think is one of

702

00:25:01,541 --> 00:25:03,668

the most significant things

703

00:25:03,668 --> 00:25:07,088

with this is the way he sets up the two kingdoms,

704

00:25:07,714 --> 00:25:10,675

which has hardly I see articulated this well

705

00:25:10,675 --> 00:25:11,676

since the early church.

706

00:25:12,302 --> 00:25:14,346

In the early church, we get it very clearly said

707

00:25:14,346 --> 00:25:15,764

that it's very clearly stated

708

00:25:15,764 --> 00:25:18,558

that God did institute human government.

709

00:25:18,850 --> 00:25:20,769

And those are given to us from God.

710

00:25:20,810 --> 00:25:22,479

Romans 13 is there and we

711

00:25:22,479 --> 00:25:23,897

cannot hide from Romans 13.

712

00:25:24,356 --> 00:25:27,234

It actually says, it even calls in Romans 13

713

00:25:27,234 --> 00:25:29,152

that he is a minister of God

714

00:25:29,152 --> 00:25:30,987

and was not given the sword in vain.

715

00:25:32,155 --> 00:25:34,574

The deeper understanding of that, however,

716

00:25:34,574 --> 00:25:35,909

and then looking at the early church

717

00:25:35,909 --> 00:25:38,119

is that that same sword that

718

00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:39,246

the apostle Paul was speaking

719

00:25:39,246 --> 00:25:41,748

of in Romans 13 cut Paul's head off.

720

00:25:42,332 --> 00:25:44,459

And so God uses these swords.

721

00:25:44,459 --> 00:25:45,961

He brings order into this world,

722

00:25:46,294 --> 00:25:47,504

but we are given a

723

00:25:47,504 --> 00:25:49,172

different calling in this world.

724

00:25:49,673 --> 00:25:50,674

And that you see in the

725

00:25:50,674 --> 00:25:52,425

early church explicitly stated.

726

00:25:53,093 --> 00:25:54,844

You see Justin talking to the emperors

727

00:25:55,053 --> 00:25:56,346

and with this kind of language.

728

00:25:56,346 --> 00:25:58,431

You see Origen actually talking about this.

729

00:25:58,431 --> 00:26:00,183

Tertullian certainly talks about this.

730

00:26:00,183 --> 00:26:01,810

It is early Christianity.

731

00:26:02,185 --> 00:26:03,979

When I started looking into non-resistance,

732

00:26:03,979 --> 00:26:04,604

maybe it was the same way

733

00:26:04,604 --> 00:26:05,605

for you, brother Stephen,

734

00:26:05,605 --> 00:26:08,483

is that the pacifist kind of

735

00:26:08,483 --> 00:26:10,193

argument sometimes confused me

736

00:26:10,610 --> 00:26:11,945

because I looked at the Old Testament

737

00:26:11,945 --> 00:26:14,114

and I believed all the word of God was true.

738

00:26:14,656 --> 00:26:16,324

Like I had to do something with the Old Testament

739

00:26:16,616 --> 00:26:18,201

and I had to do something with the New Testament

740

00:26:18,451 --> 00:26:19,119

and these things.

741

00:26:19,703 --> 00:26:21,830

And when I, the early church kind of helped me

742

00:26:21,830 --> 00:26:24,082

to bring in these two kingdoms.

743

00:26:24,082 --> 00:26:25,208

But then when I started to

744

00:26:25,208 --> 00:26:27,210

look into different expressions

745

00:26:27,210 --> 00:26:29,587

of people who believed in loving your enemies

746

00:26:29,587 --> 00:26:31,131

and that kind of a thing, it got confusing.

747

00:26:31,548 --> 00:26:33,174

But when I read this, it

748

00:26:33,174 --> 00:26:34,592

actually was like, thank you.

749

00:26:34,926 --> 00:26:36,803

He understands it in a patristic,

750

00:26:36,803 --> 00:26:39,180

a very early Christian way and it's profound.

751

00:26:39,681 --> 00:26:42,559

And so I'll give it to you here from his quotes.

752

00:26:43,727 --> 00:26:45,353

I just think it's well done.

753

00:26:46,187 --> 00:26:48,523

The sword is ordained of God

754

00:26:48,648 --> 00:26:50,692

outside the perfection of Christ.

755

00:26:51,609 --> 00:26:53,486

It punishes and puts to death the wicked

756

00:26:53,903 --> 00:26:55,572

and guards and protects the good.

757

00:26:55,572 --> 00:26:57,115

In the law, the sword was ordained

758

00:26:57,490 --> 00:26:58,408

for the punishment of the

759

00:26:58,408 --> 00:27:01,036

wicked and for their death.

760

00:27:01,286 --> 00:27:03,663

And the same sword is now ordained to be used

761

00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:05,123

by the worldly magistrates.

762

00:27:05,498 --> 00:27:06,583

He recognizes that.

763

00:27:07,208 --> 00:27:09,419

In the perfection of Christ, however,

764

00:27:10,045 --> 00:27:12,464

only the ban is used for a warning

765

00:27:12,756 --> 00:27:13,256

and for the

766

00:27:13,256 --> 00:27:15,258

excommunication of the one who has sin

767

00:27:15,633 --> 00:27:18,928

without putting the flesh to death,

768

00:27:19,429 --> 00:27:20,722

simply the warning and

769

00:27:20,722 --> 00:27:22,265

the command to sin no more.

770

00:27:22,974 --> 00:27:24,142

And so again, like you

771

00:27:24,142 --> 00:27:25,477

said, looking at the objections,

772

00:27:26,019 --> 00:27:26,728

now many who do not

773

00:27:26,728 --> 00:27:28,688

understand Christ will for us,

774

00:27:28,938 --> 00:27:30,482

will ask whether a Christian

775

00:27:30,482 --> 00:27:32,984

may and should use the sword.

776

00:27:32,984 --> 00:27:34,361

The answer is this, just

777

00:27:34,361 --> 00:27:35,153

like what you were saying,

778

00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:39,532

Christ teaches and commands us to learn of him.

779

00:27:40,283 --> 00:27:42,077

For he is meek and lowly in heart.

780

00:27:42,535 --> 00:27:45,038

He himself forbade the woman taken in adultery

781

00:27:45,288 --> 00:27:46,039

to be put to death,

782

00:27:46,539 --> 00:27:47,457

even though the law of

783

00:27:47,457 --> 00:27:49,125

his father had commanded it,

784

00:27:49,626 --> 00:27:52,212

Christ wants to be Lord and

785

00:27:52,212 --> 00:27:55,173

King over all without force.

786

00:27:55,673 --> 00:27:57,926

Therefore he gave his followers the rule,

787

00:27:58,551 --> 00:28:02,347

love your enemies, do good to them that hate you

788

00:28:02,347 --> 00:28:04,808

and pray for them that persecute you.

789

00:28:05,183 --> 00:28:08,770

His disciples must not engage in worldly strife.

790

00:28:09,479 --> 00:28:11,689

And so I just think that's so well put.

791

00:28:12,107 --> 00:28:15,110

And when you get that,

792

00:28:15,235 --> 00:28:17,320

it brings the whole Bible together.

793

00:28:17,695 --> 00:28:19,447

You see, even in the way in the Old Testament,

794

00:28:19,447 --> 00:28:24,285

the way that God would use Nebuchadnezzar

795

00:28:24,369 --> 00:28:26,287

or the Assyrian armies and

796

00:28:26,287 --> 00:28:27,747

he calls them things like my--

797

00:28:29,582 --> 00:28:30,333

Rod of my wrath.

798

00:28:30,458 --> 00:28:32,836

Rod of my wrath and my minister.

799

00:28:34,212 --> 00:28:36,172

And so when they use that kind of terminology,

800

00:28:36,172 --> 00:28:38,967

we see that God has always operated like this

801

00:28:39,384 --> 00:28:40,093

and we get to the new

802

00:28:40,093 --> 00:28:41,344

covenant, it's the same way.

803

00:28:41,719 --> 00:28:43,805

And so this I consider brilliant.

804

00:28:44,722 --> 00:28:46,850

And the way it's done is in retaining

805

00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:48,017

and bringing back this

806

00:28:48,017 --> 00:28:50,019

ancient early church understanding

807

00:28:50,562 --> 00:28:52,480

is I think is one of the more profound things

808

00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:53,481

in this statement.

809

00:28:54,524 --> 00:28:57,277

Could I say a few things on the sword too,

810

00:28:57,277 --> 00:28:59,529

because I was never in the military.

811

00:29:00,572 --> 00:29:03,450

I was in the last draft for the Vietnam War

812

00:29:03,616 --> 00:29:05,785

and my number was too low, so it didn't matter.

813

00:29:06,453 --> 00:29:08,872

But when I gave my life to the Lord,

814

00:29:09,330 --> 00:29:10,540

I thought I knew two things.

815

00:29:10,582 --> 00:29:11,875

One, I want to serve the Lord.

816

00:29:11,875 --> 00:29:14,711

And the other was his people don't kill anyone.

817

00:29:14,961 --> 00:29:17,005

And that's not exactly non-resistance,

818

00:29:17,797 --> 00:29:18,381

but it's the beginning.

819

00:29:19,174 --> 00:29:21,634

And I'd just like to share a few things

820

00:29:21,634 --> 00:29:23,219

that I think are important about that.

821

00:29:23,261 --> 00:29:23,720

Absolutely.

822

00:29:23,928 --> 00:29:26,097

And one of them is you mentioned Romans 13.

823

00:29:26,848 --> 00:29:31,269

N.T. Wright, I believe did his first major work

824

00:29:31,519 --> 00:29:32,562

on the book of Romans.

825

00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,318

And one thing that he said is watch the pronouns.

826

00:29:38,985 --> 00:29:41,488

Is it saying you or is it

827

00:29:41,488 --> 00:29:43,907

saying they or is it saying we?

828

00:29:44,491 --> 00:29:45,658

So watch the pronouns.

829

00:29:45,658 --> 00:29:49,120

Well, watch the pronouns in Romans 13.

830

00:29:49,662 --> 00:29:52,373

Mr. Wright didn't do that.

831

00:29:53,374 --> 00:29:55,418

If you look at chapter 12,

832

00:29:56,211 --> 00:29:59,172

it's about receiving the gifts

833

00:29:59,506 --> 00:30:01,132

and then living the life, the

834

00:30:01,132 --> 00:30:02,300

Christian life, and it's you.

835

00:30:02,842 --> 00:30:05,345

Now in English, you is not, when it's a command,

836

00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,848

it's not expressed, but it's you do this, you do that.

837

00:30:08,848 --> 00:30:10,308

So it just says do this, do that.

838

00:30:10,683 --> 00:30:12,477

Okay, but that's you, okay?

839

00:30:12,477 --> 00:30:13,978

It's talking to us.

840

00:30:13,978 --> 00:30:14,979

It's talking to us Christians.

841

00:30:16,022 --> 00:30:20,860

13 then, the first seven or so verses are they.

842

00:30:21,444 --> 00:30:21,861

Interesting.

843

00:30:22,237 --> 00:30:25,156

They are the ministers of God.

844

00:30:25,156 --> 00:30:27,200

They bear the sword for

845

00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,494

vengeance and for protection,

846

00:30:29,494 --> 00:30:30,203

for our good.

847

00:30:30,828 --> 00:30:34,916

And you pay them- them, okay?

848

00:30:35,291 --> 00:30:40,421

You pay them custom taxes, reverence, honor,

849

00:30:40,421 --> 00:30:41,089

whatever it says.

850

00:30:41,714 --> 00:30:44,634

And then it shifts back to oh, no man, anything.

851

00:30:45,176 --> 00:30:47,554

That's us, you, Owe no man, anything.

852

00:30:48,054 --> 00:30:49,430

And then it goes down after that.

853

00:30:50,014 --> 00:30:50,807

So for instance, one

854

00:30:50,807 --> 00:30:53,142

thing it says is overcome evil

855

00:30:53,309 --> 00:30:56,104

with good, you overcome evil with good.

856

00:30:57,814 --> 00:31:03,194

It also says as much as lies within you live

857

00:31:03,194 --> 00:31:04,237

at peace with all men.

858

00:31:04,654 --> 00:31:06,489

And so all of 12 and the rest of 13

859

00:31:06,489 --> 00:31:07,365

after the first seven

860

00:31:07,365 --> 00:31:10,118

verses, the non-Christian can't do.

861

00:31:10,118 --> 00:31:11,202

We can barely do it.

862

00:31:11,786 --> 00:31:12,745

You know, we need the Spirit

863

00:31:12,745 --> 00:31:14,539

and sometimes we just ignore him.

864

00:31:15,123 --> 00:31:15,957

But anyway, okay?

865

00:31:15,957 --> 00:31:17,208

Are you saying that N.T.

866

00:31:17,208 --> 00:31:18,501

Wright in this case was wrong?

867

00:31:18,501 --> 00:31:19,961

He missed, no, he's right.

868

00:31:20,003 --> 00:31:20,878

I was right in saying that.

869

00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,716

I'm saying he missed, he missed his own point.

870

00:31:25,133 --> 00:31:25,633

Right, right, right.

871

00:31:25,675 --> 00:31:27,260

Because he is not non-resistant.

872

00:31:27,719 --> 00:31:29,012

I saw, I wasn't there.

873

00:31:29,387 --> 00:31:31,389

I saw a time when he spoke somewhere.

874

00:31:31,389 --> 00:31:32,307

I don't remember where it was.

875

00:31:32,765 --> 00:31:35,727

And a young man, obviously hoping for a yes,

876

00:31:36,269 --> 00:31:38,104

got up and said, "Aren't you a pacifist?"

877

00:31:38,521 --> 00:31:41,649

And he said, "Well, I am a

878

00:31:41,649 --> 00:31:42,942

bishop in the Church of England.

879

00:31:43,318 --> 00:31:44,277

It's a state church."

880

00:31:44,402 --> 00:31:45,278

Okay, okay, okay.

881

00:31:45,403 --> 00:31:46,237

Now I'm paraphrasing.

882

00:31:46,821 --> 00:31:48,531

And I am in Parliament.

883

00:31:49,741 --> 00:31:50,533

He was in Parliament.

884

00:31:50,992 --> 00:31:51,951

He gives speeches.

885

00:31:52,702 --> 00:31:53,953

Well, he was in the House of Lords.

886

00:31:54,746 --> 00:31:57,457

"And no, I'm not a pacifist."

887

00:31:57,999 --> 00:31:59,292

Which means he wasn't

888

00:31:59,292 --> 00:32:01,419

paying attention to his own.

889

00:32:01,419 --> 00:32:02,837

Now, I do that too.

890

00:32:02,837 --> 00:32:04,088

I'm absolutely sure that I

891

00:32:04,088 --> 00:32:05,506

may hit the nail on the head

892

00:32:05,506 --> 00:32:08,176

about a particular issue and miss it somewhere.

893

00:32:08,635 --> 00:32:11,137

But he missed it in 12 and 13 of Romans.

894

00:32:11,638 --> 00:32:12,722

Which is, Romans is kind

895

00:32:12,722 --> 00:32:16,351

of his theme, so to speak.

896

00:32:16,726 --> 00:32:17,060

That's excellent.

897

00:32:17,477 --> 00:32:18,728

I love that point that you're making

898

00:32:18,728 --> 00:32:19,937

of the difference there.

899

00:32:19,937 --> 00:32:20,730

It's his point.

900

00:32:20,730 --> 00:32:21,773

It's his point, well, it's good.

901

00:32:21,773 --> 00:32:22,148

I love it.

902

00:32:22,732 --> 00:32:24,442

And you think of this whole concept.

903

00:32:24,442 --> 00:32:25,360

And he's talking about

904

00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:26,319

this walk in the resurrection,

905

00:32:26,444 --> 00:32:27,445

being followers of Christ.

906

00:32:28,154 --> 00:32:31,324

This and about the, we being like these cities

907

00:32:31,324 --> 00:32:32,492

that we're gathering a

908

00:32:32,492 --> 00:32:34,369

community, not part of this world,

909

00:32:34,369 --> 00:32:35,870

but a community of faith.

910

00:32:36,412 --> 00:32:38,331

It's truly putting to

911

00:32:38,331 --> 00:32:40,041

practice, you know, in Isaiah,

912

00:32:40,041 --> 00:32:42,502

when it gave the prophecy of the increase

913

00:32:42,502 --> 00:32:43,920

of this government and

914

00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:45,880

peace, there shall be no end

915

00:32:46,172 --> 00:32:48,341

when the Messiah will come.

916

00:32:48,716 --> 00:32:50,677

And so we see that gathering together

917

00:32:50,677 --> 00:32:53,346

and putting the teachings of Jesus

918

00:32:53,596 --> 00:32:57,600

as the cure for humanity is such a powerful thing

919

00:32:57,725 --> 00:32:58,267

to get behind.

920

00:32:59,352 --> 00:33:00,812

And you just mentioned Isaiah,

921

00:33:01,020 --> 00:33:01,896

so I wanna say a little

922

00:33:01,896 --> 00:33:02,939

bit about the Old Testament.

923

00:33:03,189 --> 00:33:03,231

Okay.

924

00:33:04,190 --> 00:33:07,527

Most Christian and Jewish interpreters

925

00:33:07,527 --> 00:33:08,444

of the Old Testament

926

00:33:08,444 --> 00:33:09,904

would say that the government

927

00:33:10,113 --> 00:33:12,865

was established after the flood.

928

00:33:13,616 --> 00:33:14,992

Where it says in chapter nine

929

00:33:14,992 --> 00:33:17,537

that an animal will be killed

930

00:33:17,537 --> 00:33:19,580

if he takes a man's blood, but so will a man.

931

00:33:20,456 --> 00:33:23,793

So the take, if a human life is lost,

932

00:33:24,752 --> 00:33:25,878

it means that the blood of

933

00:33:25,878 --> 00:33:27,296

that other person must be shed.

934

00:33:28,172 --> 00:33:30,133

Now that is not God's heart.

935

00:33:30,758 --> 00:33:34,011

You go back to where the first murder occurred,

936

00:33:34,137 --> 00:33:35,388

that's where you see God's heart.

937

00:33:36,055 --> 00:33:37,640

God warns Cain.

938

00:33:38,433 --> 00:33:40,727

He says, you don't have to do, you don't,

939

00:33:41,102 --> 00:33:44,731

we don't even know what's up, but Cain is angry

940

00:33:45,022 --> 00:33:46,315

because his brother was favored

941

00:33:46,733 --> 00:33:47,567

because his brother did what

942

00:33:47,567 --> 00:33:49,402

he should, and God warns him.

943

00:33:50,111 --> 00:33:52,905

And nonetheless, Cain kills his brother.

944

00:33:53,531 --> 00:33:56,200

And then God doesn't say, he doesn't say,

945

00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,703

I want everyone to go after you and kill you.

946

00:33:58,703 --> 00:34:00,538

He says, I'm gonna put a mark on you

947

00:34:00,830 --> 00:34:02,582

so that you will not be killed.

948

00:34:02,582 --> 00:34:07,044

There's a reason God's heart is always to repent

949

00:34:07,545 --> 00:34:08,296

and come back.

950

00:34:09,088 --> 00:34:10,548

Now, the law is different

951

00:34:10,548 --> 00:34:12,550

because mankind is so corrupt.

952

00:34:13,259 --> 00:34:18,014

And the chapters from chapter four to 11

953

00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:20,057

show how corrupt we became.

954

00:34:20,641 --> 00:34:23,144

So we need a really strong restraint.

955

00:34:23,311 --> 00:34:25,646

And that's where you get government.

956

00:34:26,272 --> 00:34:27,315

God institutes government

957

00:34:27,315 --> 00:34:29,150

to really pull back on us.

958

00:34:29,484 --> 00:34:31,986

But even after that, in the Old Testament,

959

00:34:31,986 --> 00:34:34,781

you see so often, this is a restraint.

960

00:34:34,781 --> 00:34:35,865

It's not God's heart.

961

00:34:36,491 --> 00:34:37,074

You hear it with the

962

00:34:37,074 --> 00:34:38,659

setting up of kings and the way,

963

00:34:39,285 --> 00:34:42,079

you are rejecting me in

964

00:34:42,079 --> 00:34:43,039

that you've asked for a king.

965

00:34:43,122 --> 00:34:45,792

When the Israelite people demanded a king, yes.

966

00:34:46,125 --> 00:34:48,252

But God works with them where they are

967

00:34:48,252 --> 00:34:50,046

and he gives them that king.

968

00:34:50,463 --> 00:34:51,839

But he sure doesn't give them what they want.

969

00:34:52,256 --> 00:34:53,925

But another thing that's interesting,

970

00:34:53,925 --> 00:34:55,843

God did establish government.

971

00:34:56,969 --> 00:35:00,348

And I agree with Augustine, in The City of God,

972

00:35:00,348 --> 00:35:03,226

he says that every nation, every empire

973

00:35:03,643 --> 00:35:05,228

was established by violence

974

00:35:05,228 --> 00:35:07,396

and it will end in violence.

975

00:35:07,396 --> 00:35:10,107

But in between, now this is not Augustine,

976

00:35:10,858 --> 00:35:12,944

in between that establishment by violence

977

00:35:13,110 --> 00:35:14,904

and being wrecked by violence,

978

00:35:15,947 --> 00:35:17,031

one of the things that

979

00:35:17,031 --> 00:35:18,533

happens over and over again

980

00:35:18,658 --> 00:35:20,409

in the Old Testament is

981

00:35:20,409 --> 00:35:23,955

this area has been pacified,

982

00:35:23,955 --> 00:35:26,791

you could say, and all of a sudden it prospers.

983

00:35:27,416 --> 00:35:30,169

And this is represented in the Old Testament

984

00:35:30,336 --> 00:35:31,879

by either calling this place

985

00:35:31,879 --> 00:35:33,923

a mountain with lots of fruit

986

00:35:34,132 --> 00:35:38,511

or a tree that provides shelter for animals

987

00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:39,679

and food and all that.

988

00:35:40,388 --> 00:35:41,722

And I remember being shocked

989

00:35:41,722 --> 00:35:44,559

when I think it's Ezekiel 31,

990

00:35:44,559 --> 00:35:45,977

it's either 30, I think it's 31,

991

00:35:46,769 --> 00:35:49,146

where God is warning Egypt.

992

00:35:49,689 --> 00:35:51,649

And he says, "Look at Assyria,

993

00:35:51,899 --> 00:35:53,359

"they were this beautiful tree."

994

00:35:53,860 --> 00:35:57,446

Well, Assyria was probably the worst enemy

995

00:35:57,905 --> 00:35:59,073

the Israelites ever had.

996

00:35:59,365 --> 00:36:01,117

And they complained to God,

997

00:36:01,117 --> 00:36:02,368

"Why are you letting this happen?"

998

00:36:02,910 --> 00:36:04,954

Okay, but after any one of the,

999

00:36:04,954 --> 00:36:07,039

whether it's the Assyrians or the Babylonians

00:36:07,039 --> 00:36:08,416

or the Persians or the Romans,

00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:15,256

after violence comes widespread peace,

00:36:15,256 --> 00:36:16,716

a peace that's imposed,

00:36:17,383 --> 00:36:18,885

but fallen man needs that,

00:36:18,885 --> 00:36:20,261

and then comes prosperity.

00:36:20,970 --> 00:36:23,264

So there's this pattern all the way through,

00:36:23,639 --> 00:36:25,558

but that's what government does.

00:36:26,475 --> 00:36:28,978

It uproots-

00:36:29,729 --> 00:36:31,814

Often it does this in a very,

00:36:31,814 --> 00:36:33,566

well, it always does it in a very violent way.

00:36:33,941 --> 00:36:38,029

It uproots evil, provides possibility for good

00:36:38,279 --> 00:36:41,157

and prosperity, but then it's going to pay.

00:36:42,074 --> 00:36:43,284

Augustine says it's going to pay.

00:36:44,744 --> 00:36:48,164

Oh, one more thing, the Anabaptists.

00:36:48,539 --> 00:36:50,124

So what I see in the Old Testament is,

00:36:50,666 --> 00:36:52,043

yes, we need government.

00:36:52,710 --> 00:36:53,836

Even now we need government

00:36:54,211 --> 00:36:55,963

because of the evil of men's hearts.

00:36:56,505 --> 00:36:58,507

And the kinds of things that have to be done,

00:36:59,050 --> 00:37:00,676

the kind of wisdom that's needed

00:37:01,052 --> 00:37:03,179

is not the kind of wisdom Christians have.

00:37:03,471 --> 00:37:04,430

And it's got to be done.

00:37:05,389 --> 00:37:07,183

The worldly men want prosperity.

00:37:08,059 --> 00:37:09,477

And they don't want violence.

00:37:09,477 --> 00:37:10,436

So they're going to use violence

00:37:10,436 --> 00:37:11,687

to get rid of the violence

00:37:11,687 --> 00:37:13,356

and then have prosperity.

00:37:14,106 --> 00:37:15,942

The Anabaptists look back at this.

00:37:15,942 --> 00:37:17,777

We know they were being challenged and they said,

00:37:18,110 --> 00:37:19,528

yes, God's people in the

00:37:19,528 --> 00:37:21,405

Old Testament bore the sword

00:37:21,822 --> 00:37:23,699

and God let them bear the sword.

00:37:23,699 --> 00:37:25,242

Although he also told them,

00:37:25,493 --> 00:37:27,161

he doesn't really want them to have a king,

00:37:27,161 --> 00:37:27,912

but if you insist.

00:37:28,663 --> 00:37:30,248

Okay, so in the Old Testament,

00:37:30,248 --> 00:37:33,000

God's people were allowed to bear the sword.

00:37:33,501 --> 00:37:36,337

In the New Testament, we hear his heart.

00:37:37,213 --> 00:37:38,172

And it's that his people

00:37:38,172 --> 00:37:39,215

should not bear the sword.

00:37:39,799 --> 00:37:41,425

And the early Anabaptists said,

00:37:42,343 --> 00:37:43,511

so the early church got

00:37:43,511 --> 00:37:45,471

this, they were non-resistant

00:37:45,846 --> 00:37:48,808

and God took the sword from the Jewish people

00:37:49,266 --> 00:37:50,518

in the Jewish Roman war.

00:37:51,978 --> 00:37:53,938

So he didn't even want them to have it.

00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:56,148

This is how the Anabaptists saw it.

00:37:56,774 --> 00:38:00,277

So I think it's very clear if one gets,

00:38:00,945 --> 00:38:01,904

this is one of those places

00:38:01,904 --> 00:38:03,614

I think that you need to go

00:38:03,698 --> 00:38:06,075

beyond just what the Bible says,

00:38:06,158 --> 00:38:07,952

simply because it's important to know

00:38:08,286 --> 00:38:09,120

historically what happened.

00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:09,453

Yeah, what happened.

00:38:09,954 --> 00:38:10,871

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

00:38:11,956 --> 00:38:13,708

It's interesting, other Anabaptists,

00:38:13,708 --> 00:38:15,126

Peter Riedemann mentions, you say,

00:38:15,126 --> 00:38:16,460

whenever we see the government of God,

00:38:16,460 --> 00:38:18,921

it's a reminder to us of the wrath of God.

00:38:19,588 --> 00:38:20,339

God gave us this

00:38:20,339 --> 00:38:21,716

government and in Hosea had mentioned,

00:38:21,716 --> 00:38:23,259

I gave you a king in my wrath

00:38:23,259 --> 00:38:25,928

and I took him away in my anger, I think it says.

00:38:26,429 --> 00:38:29,140

And so this idea is, he works with that.

00:38:29,140 --> 00:38:31,017

He works with us as people, he has mercy on us,

00:38:31,267 --> 00:38:33,185

but I agree with you, it's not the best.

00:38:33,185 --> 00:38:34,687

So they're saying, we

00:38:34,687 --> 00:38:36,230

were given this way of Christ

00:38:36,981 --> 00:38:39,400

to spread the kingdom of God on earth.

00:38:40,192 --> 00:38:42,862

They have a right, but that's not the church.

00:38:43,195 --> 00:38:44,321

That's not the people of God.

00:38:44,655 --> 00:38:46,157

But we can't rebel against

00:38:46,157 --> 00:38:47,700

it, we shouldn't be negative,

00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:48,743

we shouldn't be these

00:38:48,743 --> 00:38:51,162

rebels or anything like that,

00:38:51,912 --> 00:38:53,080

but that's our place.

00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:54,749

And I think that is so well articulated

00:38:54,999 --> 00:38:55,916

in the Schleitheim Confession.

00:38:56,500 --> 00:38:57,668

Yes, we should honor them.

00:38:57,668 --> 00:38:59,336

I do think it does, I don't think it means

00:38:59,336 --> 00:39:00,921

we can't tell the truth.

00:39:01,213 --> 00:39:02,339

Yeah, to be prophetic still.

00:39:02,339 --> 00:39:05,259

I'm talking about a ruler, we should respect him,

00:39:06,385 --> 00:39:07,386

but we can tell the truth.

00:39:07,470 --> 00:39:09,597

And be able to be prophetic to our generation.

00:39:10,723 --> 00:39:11,390

Amen, well said.

00:39:12,475 --> 00:39:14,769

So we have separation from the world, right?

00:39:14,769 --> 00:39:16,979

Which is one of the points, you have the sword,

00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:18,731

like these different things that are removed,

00:39:19,065 --> 00:39:21,358

like pulling the Anabaptists back

00:39:21,442 --> 00:39:24,403

from what would have been mainstream expectations

00:39:24,403 --> 00:39:25,780

of society, so to speak.

00:39:26,655 --> 00:39:27,573

There's another big one

00:39:27,573 --> 00:39:28,699

here, and that's the oath,

00:39:28,699 --> 00:39:31,077

that's the last one listed in the Schleitheim.

00:39:31,452 --> 00:39:34,663

I'm curious why it's last, and what does it say,

00:39:34,663 --> 00:39:35,373

what is it about?

00:39:35,873 --> 00:39:36,540

Talk to me about that.

00:39:37,333 --> 00:39:38,834

Well, I think some of the first ones,

00:39:39,668 --> 00:39:40,961

they just build into each other,

00:39:41,253 --> 00:39:42,963

and then I think some of the last ones are,

00:39:42,963 --> 00:39:43,798

and if we're this kind of

00:39:43,798 --> 00:39:45,299

people, we will do this.

00:39:45,925 --> 00:39:48,344

And this is stuff that's done normally.

00:39:48,969 --> 00:39:50,179

So for instance, the sword,

00:39:50,179 --> 00:39:51,388

which we were just talking about,

00:39:51,889 --> 00:39:54,391

in an emergency in the Middle Ages

00:39:54,809 --> 00:39:55,267

and during the

00:39:55,267 --> 00:39:56,936

Reformation, everybody was expected,

00:39:57,728 --> 00:39:59,939

every able-bodied man was

00:39:59,939 --> 00:40:01,190

expected to pick up the sword

00:40:01,190 --> 00:40:01,982

and defend his city.

00:40:03,067 --> 00:40:07,196

So these last couple of things are telling us

00:40:07,321 --> 00:40:07,822

that there's certain

00:40:07,822 --> 00:40:09,490

things that our society does,

00:40:09,490 --> 00:40:11,450

and these are definitely not what we do.

00:40:11,909 --> 00:40:14,954

The sword clearly plugs into, well, they all do,

00:40:14,954 --> 00:40:16,413

they all plug into separation.

00:40:17,832 --> 00:40:24,046

And the oath, medieval society was structured

00:40:24,797 --> 00:40:28,384

on a hierarchy, and you pledged loyalty

00:40:28,717 --> 00:40:29,927

to the man above you.

00:40:29,927 --> 00:40:30,511

Now, of course, the

00:40:30,511 --> 00:40:32,638

peasants, they were at the bottom,

00:40:32,638 --> 00:40:36,809

and I don't know that they had to pledge

00:40:36,976 --> 00:40:38,853

their loyalty, but a citizen did.

00:40:39,478 --> 00:40:40,980

Okay, and go up the ladder.

00:40:41,564 --> 00:40:43,274

So one lord, a lower lord,

00:40:43,274 --> 00:40:45,025

would pledge his allegiance

00:40:45,568 --> 00:40:47,403

to the lord above him, et cetera,

00:40:47,403 --> 00:40:49,280

right up to either the king or the emperor,

00:40:49,655 --> 00:40:50,823

or in the church to the

00:40:50,823 --> 00:40:52,533

pope, eventually, at the top.

00:40:53,159 --> 00:40:55,494

And so the society in their mind was structured

00:40:56,078 --> 00:40:59,665

by what I swear, that I'm going to follow you

00:40:59,665 --> 00:41:01,208

when you tell me what I have

00:41:01,208 --> 00:41:02,543

to do because you're above me,

00:41:03,127 --> 00:41:04,670

which has some very interesting,

00:41:07,339 --> 00:41:08,757

repercussions, thank you.

00:41:09,425 --> 00:41:12,178

If he and I are peasants and I hit him,

00:41:12,595 --> 00:41:14,180

then that doesn't matter.

00:41:14,722 --> 00:41:16,599

But if you're our lord and I hit you,

00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:17,725

I'm either gonna be

00:41:17,725 --> 00:41:19,977

really badly beaten or killed.

00:41:21,061 --> 00:41:22,521

What happens depends on

00:41:22,521 --> 00:41:24,565

where you are in that structure.

00:41:25,232 --> 00:41:26,901

So they're actually talking about,

00:41:27,318 --> 00:41:28,611

when they're not doing the oath,

00:41:29,570 --> 00:41:31,614

they're rejecting in a lot

00:41:31,614 --> 00:41:32,907

of, at least in some ways,

00:41:32,907 --> 00:41:34,408

the hierarchy of the way

00:41:34,408 --> 00:41:35,910

society was structured at the time.

00:41:36,035 --> 00:41:37,453

They were willing to obey.

00:41:37,912 --> 00:41:38,746

Right, right.

00:41:38,746 --> 00:41:40,706

But they also insisted, we

00:41:40,706 --> 00:41:42,208

are in the image of Christ,

00:41:42,208 --> 00:41:43,250

I'm in the image of

00:41:43,250 --> 00:41:44,460

Christ just like you, my lord.

00:41:45,127 --> 00:41:47,588

And that means something, I'm gonna obey you.

00:41:48,380 --> 00:41:50,341

But I think they would have been horrified

00:41:50,966 --> 00:41:53,135

at the fact that if I did something to you,

00:41:53,135 --> 00:41:55,429

I would be punished more than if I did it

00:41:55,429 --> 00:41:56,347

to my fellow peasant.

00:41:57,514 --> 00:41:58,474

So that's part of it.

00:41:59,308 --> 00:42:00,559

So this is why it's so

00:42:00,559 --> 00:42:02,269

disruptive on the one side,

00:42:02,478 --> 00:42:04,146

on the Catholic, Protestant side.

00:42:04,980 --> 00:42:06,690

It's also a commandment.

00:42:07,024 --> 00:42:10,569

The Lord said it and James said it.

00:42:10,778 --> 00:42:13,197

And it's pushing us, as it says very clearly

00:42:13,906 --> 00:42:15,282

in the scripture, make your

00:42:15,282 --> 00:42:16,700

yes, yes, and your no, no.

00:42:16,784 --> 00:42:19,870

And you can't do any more than just say to say,

00:42:19,870 --> 00:42:22,373

I'll do this if it's possible.

00:42:23,666 --> 00:42:24,959

The quote from Aaron, you're right,

00:42:24,959 --> 00:42:26,126

they come right out and quote

00:42:26,126 --> 00:42:27,753

the scripture, Matthew 5:37,

00:42:27,753 --> 00:42:29,463

let your yes be yes and your no, no,

00:42:29,755 --> 00:42:31,090

for anything more comes from evil.

00:42:31,590 --> 00:42:32,967

And then it goes on, so there's therefore,

00:42:33,008 --> 00:42:35,261

we reject all swearing of oaths.

00:42:35,261 --> 00:42:38,180

And it says, particularly those of loyalty

00:42:38,514 --> 00:42:39,932

to kings and nations.

00:42:40,808 --> 00:42:41,850

For Christ has forbidden

00:42:41,850 --> 00:42:43,435

his followers all swearing,

00:42:43,894 --> 00:42:46,063

whether true or false, by heaven or by earth

00:42:46,063 --> 00:42:47,815

or by Jerusalem or by our head.

00:42:48,315 --> 00:42:50,567

God's people trust in the invisible,

00:42:50,567 --> 00:42:51,944

not the outward things.

00:42:51,944 --> 00:42:55,239

Hence oath are forbidden to them by Christ.

00:42:55,990 --> 00:42:57,616

So I like your point there.

00:42:57,616 --> 00:43:00,911

And again, they took their citizenship

00:43:01,495 --> 00:43:03,497

in the kingdom of God very seriously.

00:43:03,497 --> 00:43:04,290

Just like in the early church,

00:43:04,290 --> 00:43:06,458

when you said Jesus is

00:43:06,458 --> 00:43:08,502

Lord, it meant Caesar is not.

00:43:09,169 --> 00:43:10,671

And so it had some huge implications.

00:43:11,046 --> 00:43:11,922

So when they were trying

00:43:11,922 --> 00:43:13,549

to be followers of Christ

00:43:13,549 --> 00:43:14,842

and not parts of these

00:43:14,842 --> 00:43:16,010

worlds and they were separated,

00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,054

they meant that, but they were genuinely feeling

00:43:19,054 --> 00:43:21,307

like they were part as Jesus is our king,

00:43:21,724 --> 00:43:23,142

he's our president, he's

00:43:23,142 --> 00:43:24,476

gonna be who put our loyalty to.

00:43:25,060 --> 00:43:26,687

There was some differences,

00:43:26,937 --> 00:43:27,438

what there's Brother

00:43:27,438 --> 00:43:29,148

Stephen about some groups said,

00:43:29,148 --> 00:43:29,898

okay, you could affirm,

00:43:30,691 --> 00:43:31,775

I'm telling you the truth.

00:43:32,276 --> 00:43:34,486

We see Paul sometimes saying that type of thing.

00:43:34,987 --> 00:43:36,655

And there were different discussions

00:43:36,655 --> 00:43:38,240

on how that would be worked out.

00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:39,116

I think Marpeck had some difference.

00:43:39,116 --> 00:43:41,535

Marpeck says you can swear an oath

00:43:42,619 --> 00:43:44,580

in government issues, I believe.

00:43:44,955 --> 00:43:47,166

Just affirmations of I am telling the truth.

00:43:47,166 --> 00:43:47,791

Are you telling the truth?

00:43:47,791 --> 00:43:49,376

Oh no, he actually did, I think so.

00:43:49,626 --> 00:43:50,127

Okay, is it an oath?

00:43:50,252 --> 00:43:51,670

We should look this up a little bit.

00:43:52,838 --> 00:43:55,132

But here it's very strongly put

00:43:55,299 --> 00:43:57,384

and it kind of ties into that whole concept

00:43:57,384 --> 00:43:58,427

of who they are as a people.

00:43:58,469 --> 00:43:58,844

It does.

00:43:59,553 --> 00:44:01,847

And that makes me think of one more thing

00:44:02,264 --> 00:44:04,141

that says this all hangs together.

00:44:04,475 --> 00:44:05,809

And it also points to the

00:44:05,809 --> 00:44:07,603

society that this was done in.

00:44:08,354 --> 00:44:10,856

One of the accusations against the Anabaptists

00:44:10,856 --> 00:44:12,858

was you're the new monks and nuns.

00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:13,484

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:44:13,525 --> 00:44:14,860

You don't live in a monastery.

00:44:15,235 --> 00:44:15,444

Yes.

00:44:15,903 --> 00:44:18,447

You do marry, but the very

00:44:18,447 --> 00:44:19,948

things we're reading here,

00:44:20,783 --> 00:44:21,408

it's amazing.

00:44:21,742 --> 00:44:23,535

I don't know that this always happened,

00:44:23,535 --> 00:44:26,538

but sometimes when a person, okay, first of all,

00:44:27,039 --> 00:44:28,832

if I'm living in medieval,

00:44:30,125 --> 00:44:31,418

well, my background is English.

00:44:31,418 --> 00:44:32,795

If I'm living in medieval England

00:44:33,087 --> 00:44:34,797

and I really want to be a good Christian,

00:44:35,381 --> 00:44:37,508

I will separate from the world by doing what?

00:44:38,967 --> 00:44:40,010

Living in a monastery.

00:44:40,052 --> 00:44:41,053

Go to the monastery.

00:44:41,053 --> 00:44:41,970

Oh, I see, like that.

00:44:42,596 --> 00:44:44,181

Okay, separation from the world.

00:44:44,932 --> 00:44:48,268

And at least in some cases I have read,

00:44:48,519 --> 00:44:49,770

this is my second baptism.

00:44:50,020 --> 00:44:50,187

Yes.

00:44:50,938 --> 00:44:51,563

Think about that.

00:44:51,939 --> 00:44:53,899

And that means that they even realized

00:44:54,149 --> 00:44:56,902

that baptism was this change in life.

00:44:57,986 --> 00:44:59,238

Now they of course thought that,

00:44:59,738 --> 00:45:01,740

well, in the infant there's no change in life,

00:45:01,740 --> 00:45:03,826

but they thought, well, yeah, it provides

00:45:04,118 --> 00:45:04,993

for that essentially.

00:45:06,495 --> 00:45:08,288

And they didn't go to war.

00:45:08,288 --> 00:45:09,331

The monks and nuns were

00:45:09,331 --> 00:45:10,666

not supposed to go to war.

00:45:10,999 --> 00:45:13,001

Now later on there was a corruption there

00:45:13,001 --> 00:45:14,670

and there were some military orders.

00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:15,838

I recognize that.

00:45:16,213 --> 00:45:17,756

But essentially monks and

00:45:17,756 --> 00:45:19,758

nuns were expected to be

00:45:19,758 --> 00:45:21,218

what we would call non-resistant.

00:45:22,177 --> 00:45:22,845

Interesting.

00:45:23,512 --> 00:45:27,057

All this stuff is, it's all Matthew,

00:45:27,850 --> 00:45:28,684

the Sermon on the Mount,

00:45:29,017 --> 00:45:30,310

Matthew 5, 6 and 7 .

00:45:31,270 --> 00:45:32,229

And in the early church,

00:45:32,438 --> 00:45:33,814

everyone was supposed to do that.

00:45:34,523 --> 00:45:35,899

As the church and the state

00:45:35,899 --> 00:45:37,359

grew closer and closer together,

00:45:37,609 --> 00:45:39,111

individuals who saw that

00:45:39,111 --> 00:45:40,988

started forming little communities,

00:45:41,155 --> 00:45:42,531

not withdrawing from the church.

00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:45,451

And they became the monasteries eventually.

00:45:46,410 --> 00:45:48,537

And the monasteries tried to

00:45:48,537 --> 00:45:49,872

live like the early Christians.

00:45:49,872 --> 00:45:50,914

And I know there are all

00:45:50,914 --> 00:45:52,708

kinds of complications there.

00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,294

But it's interesting, what we were doing

00:45:55,294 --> 00:45:57,504

is essentially saying this

00:45:57,504 --> 00:45:58,505

belongs to all Christians.

00:45:58,839 --> 00:45:59,339

Yeah, that's amazing.

00:45:59,339 --> 00:46:00,382

We aren't supposed to,

00:46:00,716 --> 00:46:01,884

it's not just monks and nuns

00:46:01,884 --> 00:46:03,260

that are supposed to live this way.

00:46:03,302 --> 00:46:03,677

That's great.

00:46:04,219 --> 00:46:05,345

The last quote I have here

00:46:05,345 --> 00:46:07,306

is, "Dear brothers and sisters,

00:46:08,348 --> 00:46:11,435

"these are the articles of certain brethren

00:46:11,894 --> 00:46:13,270

"who had formerly been in error,

00:46:13,979 --> 00:46:16,148

"but have now come to one mind in the Lord,

00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,400

"to God be praised and glory."

00:46:19,485 --> 00:46:21,528

So it's amazing, it's amazing confession

00:46:21,528 --> 00:46:22,696

of such an early age.

00:46:23,822 --> 00:46:25,073

What a conclusion piece.

00:46:25,491 --> 00:46:28,118

And when I read it here again recently,

00:46:28,118 --> 00:46:31,205

I was struck by how relevant it still feels.

00:46:31,455 --> 00:46:33,290

It's like its five hundred years old and you read it,

00:46:33,290 --> 00:46:34,458

it's like, "Well, this is really interesting."

00:46:35,751 --> 00:46:39,379

So hopefully people seeing this say,

00:46:39,379 --> 00:46:40,881

"Maybe I should pick that up and read it."

00:46:40,964 --> 00:46:41,507

I hope so.

00:46:41,507 --> 00:46:42,132

I hope so too.

00:46:42,466 --> 00:46:42,883

Yeah, amen.

00:46:44,343 --> 00:46:48,722

If they read Matthew 5, 6 and 7 ,

00:46:48,722 --> 00:46:49,681

the Sermon on the Mount and

00:46:49,681 --> 00:46:51,475

think that is still relevant,

00:46:52,017 --> 00:46:54,186

that's exactly what these guys were,

00:46:54,394 --> 00:46:55,270

at least partially what

00:46:55,270 --> 00:46:57,231

these guys were working off of.

00:46:57,940 --> 00:47:01,068

And some of the details like having a society

00:47:01,068 --> 00:47:04,863

that's very hierarchical might not fit with us,

00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,824

but the same thing might be able to be said

00:47:07,824 --> 00:47:08,951

about the Sermon on the Mount

00:47:08,951 --> 00:47:10,327

at this point or that point,

00:47:10,911 --> 00:47:13,914

but the thrust is still relevant.

00:47:15,499 --> 00:47:15,707

Yeah.

00:47:16,166 --> 00:47:16,917

Yeah, amen, well said.

00:47:18,585 --> 00:47:21,588

Thanks for listening to this episode of Anabaptist Perspectives.

00:47:22,130 --> 00:47:26,677

If you found this interesting make sure and check out our YouTube channel called Anabaptist Origins

00:47:26,677 --> 00:47:30,264

which is all about the first hundred years of the Anabaptist story.

00:47:30,347 --> 00:47:33,350

You can find that link in the description down below.

00:47:33,392 --> 00:47:38,313

And of course you can find all our content on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org.

00:47:38,397 --> 00:47:41,733

Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you in the next episode.