The fiat currency incentivizes and promotes inequality and social dislocation. And I was very skeptical, honestly, of coming in to Bitcoin.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to Orange Hatter. Andy, thank you so much for spending an afternoon with us and sharing your Bitcoin story.

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Let's jump right in. Can you tell us a little bit about your background?

I am a founding partner at EgoDev Capital. So, we're a venture capital fund that invests in companies building in the Bitcoin ecosystem. I grew up in Australia. studied math and economics. Ended up working with Goldman Sachs. First in Australia and then New York for nearly eight years, I took a bunch of time out, traveled, did a few different things before starting, co founding the fund with, Jeff Booth and Nicola Chuga early last year.

Sounds like a very, very exciting life so far. Let's, let's dig deeper. Uh, so you started, with Goldman Sachs. And you mentioned that you travel a bit. When we talked, last time we were at Bitcoin Park, you mentioned that you were an exchange student to China. So are

Ah, I wasn't an exchange student, but I studied Chinese. I spent some time there. So I first in 2000, uh, 2000. Five, I think 2005, and we did some performances in different cities in China and kind of did little exchanges with other orchestras, which was really cool. and then I studied Chinese a little bit in university. And then basically I had some time between university and starting work, which is when I did my first really, really long stint of travel. And part of that, I was in China for a couple of months, in the South, just studying Chinese and just living there.

you still speaking Chinese today? Or is that? Do

Sadly, I mean, I could probably get around if I really needed to. I've since been living in Spain and Mexico. And so the focus was more on Spanish. and probably the next language I'm going to learn is French. I only speak German. My mom's German. But, I would, maybe I should pick up Chinese again. I really do enjoy learning it. I

So when you are traveling around the world, you must have experienced such different cultural beliefs and even just everyday approaches, Do you think that that may have helped you? understand the coin when you first encountered a Bitcoin?

think, definitely, and also, I guess, I grew up, I always wanted, I always saw there was something wrong with the world. I always saw that the world was very, very unequal. I couldn't really understand. How it was that some people in some parts of the world could have so little and I, my family wasn't rich at all, but, growing up in Sydney, good public infrastructure, public schools, everything, in the context of the world, I was very, very privileged and I just, that to me just never really made sense. And so I always had this passion, I guess for understanding that and understanding it really at the root cause. So I did study development economics in university, a lot of which to me just seemed, very superficial. a lot of the talk was, okay, well, if you invest X or if you do Y development program, that's what helps development. And it was always like, well, but you're just talking about treating the symptoms. Like what's the root cause of this? And a lot of it that I was understanding at the time was around governance and corruption, and certainly that I've traveled throughout a lot of the developing world, a lot of Africa, Latin America, Middle East, Eastern Europe, Asia, and, So I have, I definitely learned a lot through that and I think you really see, I guess, as a traveler, you don't always necessarily go deep in terms of what, like, particularly the banking and access to the financial system, but you certainly see and understand people and it becomes very, very natural to have a very global perspective as opposed to seeing it all necessarily just from a global perspective. The perspective of how I grew up.

Yeah. Um, can you tell us a little bit about the first time you came across Bitcoin?

I first came across crypto in 2018 when I left Goldman, and was spending time in Berlin with a lot of the crypto people. And I think I got a little lost in the weeds or not in the, in them. That was so much. And I was like, no, no, this makes sense. Like all the use cases you're talking about don't make sense. And so I didn't get through to Bitcoin at the time. So I was kind of put off by the whole thing. I was like, this seems ridiculous. anyway, and then it was really a couple of years later talking to Jeff and Nico about Bitcoin specifically and realizing how it tied in a lot to what I had been seeking for as Really understanding this global problem of inequality of corruption of governance of all of these issues and understanding that the money really is the foundation of that and and is the root root cause potentially, the inequality with the U. S. Dollar being a reserve currency with fiat. and so it's sort of as soon as I heard the story around that, it just instantly clicked for me. That it fits so well into all of these issues and ideas and areas that I've been exploring my whole life.

So when you first came across Bitcoin, and you're making those connections, were there specific people who came to your mind or, or stories or something you observed through your travels that particularly jumped out at you when you're making these, like connecting all these dots?

I think less my travel, certainly my travel, I think what was more was the study that I had done around corruption and governance and just seeing, and seeing the international financial systems, the way that IMF works, the way that World Bank works, lending to countries, putting them in these positions of servitude effectively to the global financial system and these kind of process of extraction. and effectively, it incentivizes governance. Corruption, it incentivizes civil conflict. and it's all coming back to this sort of currency that, that is driving it all. and this system that was driving it all in this system of power corrupt and corruption. and so the concept of having a currency and a value that couldn't be corrupted or manipulated, I think was really what stood out to me.

I'm thinking in my mind, I did a little bit of traveling in my twenties as well. but I, I always remembered this story that someone shared with me. She's an American, she was retired and she was visiting. Think it may have been India, but she was describing how. These young men would run up to her and her husband and tell them to please take them home with them and that they would be their son and that they will love them and respect them. It was like this very active pleading, not just can you please give me some money, but it was can you please get us out of here kind of thing. And I always remembered. That story when she shared it with me. So can you think of any examples of something similar that you had experience in all the different places that you've visited?

It's funny because I actually, in a way, experience, I saw, I've seen so much poverty and at the same, like, you know, I traveled through India. I've traveled through places with very, what people would consider very extreme positive poverty, but actually. Some of the social dislocation I see in the U. S. is actually worse. I, I still remember, I had been in India, I'd spent a couple of months there, and I was shocked when I got back to New York. And I was in Brooklyn and seeing the homelessness and the desperation of the people in Brooklyn. And that to me was like, there's something wrong with the system. there's something wrong. If you have the richest country in the world and yet the level of social dislocation of destitution of poverty, it's like people just on the street. I remember seeing this man near my friend's apartment, this old man in a wheelchair, just like slumped over. I guess he was a drug addict. I don't know. And it was just like. How can we as a society let this happen? Because actually in a lot of developing countries where they have nothing, they actually have so much more in terms of social structures. So I still remember I showed, I, when I was traveling through Africa, I had my main camera, which was like whatever, SLR, and then a little camera. And often when I would go, there'd be kids around, I would just give them my cat, the little one, and they would play with it and have so much fun. People were like, oh, well, wouldn't they steal it? I was like, no, just because they're poor doesn't mean they steal. Like they have values. Actually, a couple of times I forgot it almost as I was leaving. And like, I had a kid come up to me and be like, your camera, your camera. I was like, oh, I almost forgotten. So I ended up with these amazing photos of these kids and they were having so much fun and so happy. And I showed that to my mom and my mom was like, wait, but they look so happy. And I was like, of course, Why wouldn't they be happy? She's like, because they're poor. And I was like, well, just because they're poor doesn't mean they're unhappy. And actually some of these people are richer in terms of, they have a community, they have social, they, if they go to school, like they have friends and family. And, so in, a way it was less seeing that it was more than being like, wait, there's something wrong with the U S as well. And the Western structure. And as I continued to go down these Really understanding the root cause of so many problems. And you realize the fiat currency just incentivizes and promotes inequality and promotes all of these social dislocation. And I was very skeptical, honestly, of coming in to Bitcoin. I know, people talk about, Oh, Bitcoin fixes this. And I've been very, very skeptical of that kind of, Oh, well it seems too simple, but the more you get down to these root cause of this is like, you have money at the foundation, just creating this. This inequality and that that's like the worst of anywhere in the world, almost in the U. S.

That is a really interesting observation. I have been thinking about how poor we are in the US in terms of I feel that, we are so set on having our independence that what we give up is the community. And if we have 100 people trying to make it on their own versus 100 people working together, you have 100 lonely and desperate people versus maybe 100 happier and more hopeful people.

Yeah. And that's not to say, I mean, that's not to say that, oh, it's fine to be poor. Like, absolutely not. On the other hand, I met, this man in, it must be in rural, rural Malawi, tiny little town in Malawi, where of course the, all you see Coca Cola trucks everywhere, by the way, it is crazy. You're like the middle of nowhere and has a beautiful, perfect Coca Cola truck going past. It's wild. And I can go into that as well. But, I met this man and he was a, he had a sewing machine, a beautiful thing, a sewing machine. He was a tailor, like he was fixing clothing and was there with his wife, but he had been working in a mine nearby and had been really, really badly injured. and basically got this one little piece of money as settlement and was trying to live off it, but it was almost gone and there was just this like, you know, it's like, what's he going to do? He's injured. There isn't the same support that they used to be in communities and they're all of this sort of Western social dislocation has arrived there. And so it's just really varies. And he was just such a lovely, lovely man. I have this beautiful photo of him. But I was really worried for his future as well.

Okay. So what about those Coca Cola trucks?

Well, okay. So I guess I, I read a book recently. So as I said, We think about fiat currency and what problems that causes, and effectively, if you think about fiat currency, loose money, there's so much money being injected into the system all the time that now there's all this money that people can actually be incentivized to try and capture. And so if we think about all of these different industries, whether it's, we know the concept of the military industrial complex, right. And so all of this money that can be spent, but we need to justify things. And it's because there's all this money available to be spent by governments, but then there's all these corporations that are incentivized to try and figure out ways to justify and then capture this loose money that can come. So all of this money is then being funneled into these corporations, which everyone else is. About savings is being debased, so it's just generating this huge inequality, and that's what we're seeing in the US. It's sort of the most pronounced of anywhere, and then you start thinking, Well, that's just one industry. What about the pharmaceutical industry? Exactly the same thing. People are incentivized to create drugs because there's money that can come from the whole system. And then and then you go to Okay, what about the processed food? Industry and I recently read a book called ultra processed people all about the fast food, the processed food industry and the same thing they're incentivized to try and capture wealth and they because of all of this loose money that's basically going around the system. So we think, well, more money is good because it helps people, but actually it creates all of these really terrible incentives. So now you have a situation like in Brazil or wherever, where people like Brazil and Africa, Obesity is a huge problem because they basically, Coca Cola saw rates of growth going down in developed countries and figured where can we get new markets, they went into emerging markets, they're bringing out this, this basically pushing processed food and fizzy drinks and sugar on People that, because it's just cheap and it's available and there's really terrible stories of how it's created, incentives in places like in towns where they can't access any fresh food anymore and all they can get is this processed food from these international corporations. so that was, I, I just remember being in rural Africa and being like, what the fuck is a Coca Cola truck doing here? Excuse my language. Anyway, and now it's like you start understanding why it's because of, it's because of fiat currency and these weird incentives.

I have a, somewhat relevant story to share I was visiting rural Kentucky, a couple of years ago and These areas used to be, mining towns and since the mines closed down, all of these people just sunk into horrible, horrible poverty so I was talking to this lady who works with the town describing An economy happening locally that was boosted by welfare. And I said, well, what does that mean? I don't understand. And she said, people, would get food stamps and food stamps are meant to be spent at the grocery store because if they got cash from the government through their welfare system, then they would go buy drugs because drugs. Alcohol, they're rampant over there. The problem. So they would take the food stamps and they would go to the grocery store and buy up large amounts of soda. They will haul them by cases into somebody's truck and then they will drive them to the local restaurants and sell them to the restaurants for money. And because it was free to them, any money that they got was extra for them. And of course the restaurants can. So that's how they would funnel money out of the welfare system. And then they use the money to go get drugs anyway. And then the kids would grow up without even the basic knowledge of how to bathe and how to brush their teeth. And I actually went into the Walmart, In that area. And I was shocked at the condition of the people who came into Walmart they were horribly deformed physically because they're eating. Processed food because, you know, food stamps and they would buy canned food and sodas and then they would go do drugs. And so I looked at, there was a baby that came in with a family and I looked at the baby and I, I couldn't believe that it was an American baby. I just, I mean, that sounds so horrible because it's not okay anywhere in the world, but just like what you're saying. disparity between the poor and the rich is so great. And yet these people are being supported. And I feel like in some ways we pat ourselves on the back that we have the welfare system, but the welfare system really hurts them even more. Going back to the Fiat system and the soda and the The process food and everything, you know, so yeah, it's, it's very sad.

I think it's complex because I don't know that the answer is don't do welfare. I think the answer is so much deeper than that. And it's like the politicians are doing their best. Like welfare is basically trying to treat a symptom, but in a way it's making it worse. But at the same time, it's so complex because. The root cause of it's like treating an illness, right? They're trying to put band aids on things, but the root cause of the whole problem is so deep and so hard to treat. And so people that are hopeless and have nothing and trauma and become addicted, it's really terrible. And that's, I think once you start realizing, we're not individuals, right? Like we like to think we're individuals, but actually we're a collective humanity. And. Their suffering is our suffering. I think you see it when you travel there and, and you feel it. It's easy to sort of insulate yourself, but at the end of the day, it's going to come at you one way or another. I noticed it in Austin. I live in Austin and there's more and more homeless people. I had a conversation that's potentially as a result of the opioid epidemic, which is all, and I can go into that more around. Thank you. Doctors being incentivized to basically be legal drug dealers. And even now it's terrible. and at the end of the day, it impacts me because I'm seeing these really desperate homeless people on the street. And I try and sometimes give them money, but it's really sad. And it, it's not just their suffering. It's my suffering as well. And I feel sometimes powerless, but that's why I think Bitcoin is. I feel like it's slow and you don't see immediate progress, but it's really trying to address this at maybe a root level.

Yeah, for sure. a lot of people ask, what Precoiners will ask, how long would it take for our system to reset? Because that's our dream, right? As Bitcoiners, we're all hoping that that day will be soon. I mean, what do you think? How long do you think it would take for us to get to that point?

I hope it's not a reset and it's more of a transition. I know some people want everything to fall apart cause so much suffering, but I, I think what we're doing is building a new system that people can over time transition to and things are going to collapse. I think that's inevitable. That's just history. I don't know. I think it could be a while to be honest. Um, you know, the U. S. Well, who knows? I think it's honestly so hard to tell, so hard to predict.

It's a very

be years, it could be decades, it could be centuries. probably decades is my guess.

yeah, that's my guess too. Okay, so you've come into the Bitcoin space, you're convinced that it's going to be a good thing for everyone. how has it changed the way you look at life in other ways? yoU touched on a little bit about the process for you and the big pharma. what about personally?

Yeah, I think it's made, I mean, I think in general it's made me, um, because we grow up with these stories, you grow up taught one thing, we grew up learning that inflation is the way it should be done. We grew up learning that cycles are the way things are. I studied economics, right? That's just taught to you. That's just how it is. It's not, this is a theory. and you start, I think Bitcoin, you start questioning everything you've learned about economics, about finance, about the global financial system. And then you start thinking, well, if that's. Everything I believe there is kind of not true or it's someone's story that I've just been taught. Well, where else is it? Okay, and then you go, what about health? Like, what, what am I told about health and medicine and drugs, like legal, like pharmaceuticals? and then you start, okay, I'm going to really start questioning all of this. And then you start really questioning, literally everything. and that's a little terrifying, to be honest. So I think do it bit by bit. But, I've really come to question so many of my beliefs and so much of what I hear in the news or headlines or anything like that. And just really trying to come up with my. Own independent views on sort of everything, really, and talking to people and questioning.

So, before we started recording, we were talking a little bit about alternative health. It's a subject that I'm very, very interested in, just because of personal experience, what I have observed from watching people who are close to me, hearing other people share their stories. Well, recently I came across a thing called emotion code, which is where you release trapped emotions in your body. So I was chatting with someone one night and I said, I'm experimenting. I don't know what I'm doing, but you want me to do on you? And she said, sure. So we did one session. I don't know if it did anything, but anyway, three days later I get this very excited text and she goes, I need to do another session with you. And I said, really, what happened? And she goes, That thing that I told you about, it's releasing, like it's, my body is healing. And it's after, it's three days after we did the emotion release. and that condition was closest to a scheduled surgery date. And it was going to be this gaping hole in her body that they would have to sew up but the body, once you release the trapped emotion there was able to start self healing. So I'm super interested in it. I was blown away. I mean, doctors are necessary So I'm not saying no doctors. I'm just saying it doesn't have to be the first resort isn't necessarily let's cut it out. We don't understand what's happening. It's causing you pain. Let's chop it. Let's cut it out. Let's separate. You know what I'm saying?

yeah, that's amazing. I would love to learn more about this. I think I could benefit from that. I think one thing that people, they hear alternate medicine and they think, oh, it's just wishy washy, whatever. there's a lot of. The thing is the medical field is very conservative and so it's typically decades behind the latest scientific innovations. The same with science in general. and so for instance, on this point of emotion being stored in the body, it's very scientifically documented now. There's a great book called The Body Keeps the Score. I'm not sure if you've read that, which is a number one New York Times bestseller. I highly recommend everyone to read that and. I agree with you. Medicine is amazing. It's really incredible, particularly at treating any sort of acute injuries, penicillin, antibiotics, all of these things but in terms of treating disease, it's very bad, because it's typically treating symptoms of disease and not the cause of disease. and I'm not an expert, but I definitely in my experience and what I've learned and read about, it does seem that a lot of disease is caused by, psychological and emotional factors. So, for instance, someone growing up and. they have challenging parents or abusive parents, and so they learn to always internalize all of their emotions because it's dangerous to express their emotions. And then over time, they're basically trapping all of that in their body, and that ultimately is sort of inevitable that it will lead to disease, cancer, all of these things, and it's not their fault. it's just, we're not taught as a society of how to manage emotion. We're not, we're taught how to be good, productive workers in the economy. We're not taught how to be, healthy human beings and members of a community. and so all of I think what's incredible now that maybe the synthesis can come through of the modern technology of science, along with the ancient understanding of, you know, in China, they have incredible knowledge of the energy systems of the body. of the chi systems, all of which is all proven by science. There's so much evidence that the Chinese knew exactly what was going on internally, but it takes such a long time for that to filter into the ordinary medical practices. I am very optimistic because if we think about meditation, for instance, 10 years ago, that was a very fringe, new age, weird hippie thing, and now it's like every single doctor probably recommends that patients meditate. and so I think it's this synthesis of, the scientific understanding with all of the ancient knowledge that can come together now, which and I think also it's similar, health is similar to Bitcoin, I was sitting down with a friend of mine on the weekend and she's a very, she's an incredible functional medicine doctor. and so they bought Bitcoin and I was helping them learn to self custody and I was explaining self custody, you know, we, we've typically given up all of our sovereignty and ownership of money. We just. outsource it to the banks. We let them look after it. Sometimes they collapse and we don't take ownership. And so, so much of Bitcoin is, is taking ownership and learning and doing it. And yes, it's not easy at first, but then you figure it out and self custody, and then it becomes normal. And then you start to wonder, why did I let the banks look after my money for so long? The same thing with health. And she said, it's the same thing that people just outsource their health to their doctors, but actually. It's she wants people to reclaim and to take ownership and understand and do the research and talk to people. so that was a really interesting conversation, actually.

I find that very interesting that an MD would talk to you about that because a lot of MDs are very upset that people are self diagnosing.

My friend, so she's in functional medicine, and I'm not sure if, yeah, functional medicine is very, very forward thinking, ultimately everyone knows their body better than their doctor can so their doctor can help. It's like a therapist, right? Like the therapist isn't going to come and say, this is what's wrong with you. They're working with you, asking you questions, understanding that ultimately it's up to you. you know yourself better than anyone. And I think it's the same with medicine. So self diagnosing is one thing, but maybe there's something there. and there's so many advances in terms of. doing testing for toxins or scans and things like that, that really do empower people and then you can work with a doctor to help you through it. I think that's her perspective, but I can't speak for her obviously.

Well, I totally agree with that because I work with a functional doctor and I have a Chinese acupuncturist and herbalist who I work with and my first resort when somebody, has the sniffles or something is always I would text my acupuncturist and say, is this something you can help me with? And if he can, he will say, come in. If not, then he says, Go to urgent care. And I, I love that. I have that personal relationship with my doctor instead of going through a automated call. And then you have to wait forever for a human being. And every time you call in, it's a different person. And you never get to talk to a doctor until you get there. And then it's like, he has three minutes for you. And then he's out of the room and you're just never seeing the same person twice. And they're always coming in asking you the same questions over and over again. In the same visit,

Yeah. I need to find a good acupuncturist. I worked with an amazing acupuncturist when I was living in Spain. She, she was Western, but had studied extensively and, helped me so much. Incredible. but since then I haven't found a good one, so I'll have to see if maybe, maybe your acupuncture has a recommendation in Austin.

I can always text him and he'll let me know.

That would be great.

So what other, alternative health things have you explored that we can chat about? I'm always curious.

Oh, um, I think one of the biggest ones, which is not specifically physical health, but it's like emotional health coming back into the body and score. And that's actually such an important factor. I think there's a whole range of different things I've worked with there in terms of kind of psychedelics and I don't know if you know Aho, he's this relatively controversial Indian spiritual leader. He was around in the nineties. People might know him from the documentary world, world Country on Netflix, which is, uh, it's crazy. The story. At the same time, usher developed a really profound. set of teachings around, really embodied. So if we think about all of this trauma that's trapped in the body and anger and hatred and you can see it right when people are really hunched up and they're holding everything in and like. So he developed this system of movement. So one aspect of dynamic meditation, when you're like jumping up and down, some of it is like you're screaming it, like you're literally letting out all of that anger that you've never been able to let out before that's trapped in your body and causing illness and disease. And you get this opportunity to just like, let it out and go for it, you know? Um, and I, I did a retreat at an Asha Ashram in Greece, actually, a couple of years ago, which was a 10 day retreat and go through a lot of sharing as well as movement practices. So Kundalini meditation when you're moving and shaking and all of these ways to shift energy and shift physical kind of things through the body. that I actually need to get back into it. I haven't been doing the practice recently. So that's something I think is really, really powerful.

And you mentioned that you also do lunar syching and

yes, I was actually very excited. This month because I noticed, my cycle came on the new moon, which is kind of, and then I noticed it was exactly 28 days. So previous month was the new moon and that's a while since I've been totally synced like that, which is really nice. so there's, and you can think about it both from an evolutionary biology perspective as to why that might make sense, but also from a kind of spiritual perspective, and women just really being these very cyclical beings and. These beautiful cycles we go through, and it's very much linked to the moon and the moon, if we think about the spiritual perspective, the moon representing the feminine, the sun representing the masculine, and that's why we sync with the moon.

so was there something particular you needed to do in order to sych?

So I didn't, you can do it intentionally from what. So really setting the intention. I think also being, I think if you're generally in a good place emotionally and balanced, that really helps. That's really important. obviously going outside, really being in touch with the moon. So knowing when the new moon is going outside, if you can experiencing the darkness, on those nights and when the full moon is out, really experiencing and. Making sure your body is, experiencing that the cycles as well. and then really setting that intention, for it to happen. and you can sync with. The full moon as well. So that's considered like the priestess energy in some lineages. So, the priestesses, this might be a bit graphic for some, but, would bleed on the full moon. and I know you have mostly women listeners, so hopefully, we all are used to this. and so that's also a, a beautiful thing, that maybe if you have more of that priestess energy, you may want to set the intention to sync with the full moon.

Okay, I'm gonna try that Cuz I heard about lunar syching and I knew that was a good thing, but I didn't know how to do it specifically so I never I never pay attention unless I was driving on an open road and It happens to be a full moon and I'll say oh my gosh, it's so beautiful But then the next day I don't remember what Lunar phase we're in, so it's just not something I pay attention to. It sounds like if I paid attention and I set an intention to sync up, that's something that's more or less natural.

yeah, and there is a lot of, rituals you can do around the new moon, which are really beautiful. So that's a really beautiful time. It's the feminine time. So if we think about masculine is, is outwards is active, is bright is, There's many other things, but in this particular context, where is the feminine is the darkness. It's the inward. It's the kind of gentle receiving energy. And so that's the time of the new moon when we go inward and the full moon. It's like, it's bright. It's sunny. That's why you have the full moon parties. You go out and party. that's also when you're most fertile, so it's not a coincidence that you would probably go to full moon parties at the time you're most fertile, meet a mate and have a child, and so that the new moon is more about going inwards. So what's been going and that's why also when we bleed, we also have the emotion come up so it's this time of really going into the emotional side into the feminine side. Understanding listening to ourselves. We can set intentions around what we want to release from the previous cycle. What we want to welcome into the next cycle. so lots of like journaling meditation, any sort of feminine practices around the new moon is a really beautiful way to acknowledge that as well.

That is so cool. Okay, we have a few minutes left. what Bitcoin?

I think, think about what you're really passionate about in the world. I think we as women. Connect to Bitcoin less like the guys might be like, Oh my God, this is such cool technology. And I'm like, I don't really care what, like I really care about is. I guess helping other people and making the world a better place. And that's where I really realized Bitcoin, really fit in so much with that. and so I think maybe for women and it's obviously, we all have feminine and masculine inside us. I'm not saying it's only women. Lots of men care about people as well. Lots of women are technical. I'm certainly very technical. So I just want to preface that. But, I think women do often care a lot about other people and want to make a difference. And so really understanding maybe how Bitcoin and sound money really maybe fits in with things you're passionate about. could be a way as well. And I love this podcast of listening to other women's stories as well. And you can let the boys go talk about the technical, I mean, yeah, I can go do the code and there's some amazing female coders, so don't get me wrong, like Lisa is like amazing. so it's, it's not a blanket rule, but

Yeah, we're grossly generalizing here because like you said, some women have, more masculine tendencies and of course men have more feminine tendencies and that's fine. It's just that we do in general think a certain way. For example, my husband, when he starts talking about Bitcoin. necessarily he brings in politics and he gets very worked up and upset about all the wrongs that have happened and all that stuff. And like you said, I care about how impacts me personally and how it makes a difference for people's lives more just on a personal experience level and less of a systemic. And, you know, let's talk politics. Let's talk big picture stuff. I get more personal. I'm so happy to have gotten to know you better. And the fact that we can talk women to women about topics that we all experience and share. I think that's so important, that we can have this open space to speak freely. I don't think we would be so comfortable talking about lunar syching if there were

yeah.

men in this space, but it's really relevant, you know, and people, people like to know. Thanks for joining us today If the discussion with our guests resonated with you and you would like to dive deeper into the world of Bitcoin, don't miss out on joining the Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club. The meetup link is in the show notes. Also, if there are women in your life whom you think would both enjoy and benefit from learning more about Bitcoin, please share Orange Hatter with them. Until next time, bye!