1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,480 So a friend texted me recently and she said, do you ever get fed up of being underestimated? And 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:10,520 what she was talking about is that feeling when you're in a room and there's people maybe a lot 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,440 older than you, a lot more senior than you are, and you feel as though you have to like over explain 4 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:19,400 every single decision or you have to. I don't know where the clothes wear the makeup, like show up 5 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:26,360 110% best version of you because you feel as though you're underestimated. And my response to 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:33,240 her was, yes, I have absolutely got fed up of that before. Like being underestimated. Um, sometimes at 7 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:39,160 work, even sometimes to this day. I think it on social media, like occasionally, you know, and it's 8 00:00:39,160 --> 00:00:44,160 definitely something that's in me internally is I think I'm like, oh, I wish people took me more 9 00:00:44,160 --> 00:00:50,160 seriously. I wish people respected me more. But what I've come to realise over the years is being 10 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:56,200 underestimated is actually quite a superpower. You know what? I'm going to go as far to say as I hope 11 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:01,760 I'm underestimated forever, because the opposite is being overestimated. Imagine that. Imagine 12 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,199 people like overestimating what you can do, and then you showing up and letting them down like 13 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:10,160 that is worse for me. That is more fearful. This is the podcast where we open the box on all the 14 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,600 difficult conversations that usually only ever happen behind those closed boardroom doors, at 15 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:19,200 work and in leadership. And today, on today's episode, we're going to go around the houses a 16 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,600 little bit. We're going to explore the idea of imposter syndrome, talk about exactly what that is, 17 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,519 why it may be holding you back right now, and exactly what you are going to do to make sure it 18 00:01:27,519 --> 00:01:31,760 never holds you back again. Because trust me, if anyone can tell you about imposter syndrome, it's 19 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,560 me. So I'm going to explain exactly sort of where I was when I felt it and why I felt it. But 20 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:42,040 alongside that, I want to explore this theme of being underestimated and people underestimating 21 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:47,280 you, and how that really links into this idea of being respected at work, being taken seriously at 22 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:52,480 work. To me, it's all one in the same thread. So for this first bit, I'm going to bring up my notes. 23 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,240 I've got some notes here on exactly what imposter syndrome is, and I've got like the Google 24 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,870 definition of where it came from and what exactly what it is. So imposter syndrome. Not kind of like 25 00:02:00,870 --> 00:02:07,430 the watered down version, but the legit definition of imposter syndrome was first identified in 1978 26 00:02:07,430 --> 00:02:12,910 by two psychologists, Pauline Glantz and Suzanne Imes. They said they were studying high achieving 27 00:02:12,910 --> 00:02:17,830 women who, despite their success, were convinced they got there by luck and had this feeling of 28 00:02:17,869 --> 00:02:24,350 they were about to be found out. It's a specific internal experience where you can't 29 00:02:24,390 --> 00:02:29,229 internalise your own achievements. They feel like something that's kind of outside of us, even 30 00:02:29,229 --> 00:02:33,950 though the external evidence may say we are capable. Our internal narrative doesn't quite 31 00:02:33,950 --> 00:02:38,669 believe it yet. I can tell you the time when I felt the imposter syndrome the strongest. There's 32 00:02:38,670 --> 00:02:43,469 two points in my career where it really kind of ring true for me. First of all was when I very, 33 00:02:43,470 --> 00:02:47,349 very first started my management career. So I was working on the Harrod shop floor. I had a very 34 00:02:47,350 --> 00:02:51,389 small team. I think we were 8 or 9 people and we were managing shift patterns. And if anyone kind 35 00:02:51,390 --> 00:02:56,429 of works in hospitality, retail, you will know that you're you're generally managing a team who don't 36 00:02:56,429 --> 00:03:01,149 see this job as their career job. So it is an extra layer of hard to kind of keep them 37 00:03:01,149 --> 00:03:05,789 motivated, keep them coming in on time, keep them excited, because most of the time, a lot of those 38 00:03:05,789 --> 00:03:09,310 people know that they're only going to be in this job for like a year or two. And I remember the 39 00:03:09,310 --> 00:03:14,429 very first time I had to like, quote unquote, tell someone off or just pull them to the side, pull 40 00:03:14,429 --> 00:03:18,149 them up on the fact that they were late. When you work in shifts on a retail shop floor, obviously 41 00:03:18,149 --> 00:03:22,149 if you're late, it really negatively impacts the people around you. And it was the very first time 42 00:03:22,149 --> 00:03:25,470 that I kind of had to pull someone to the side and say, look, your lateness is impacting the rest 43 00:03:25,470 --> 00:03:31,949 of the team. I just went absolutely in on myself thinking, who am I to be having this conversation 44 00:03:31,950 --> 00:03:35,869 with someone? Who am I to be telling someone that, you know, just telling them what to do, like 45 00:03:35,870 --> 00:03:41,269 dictating their life, their day here on earth? And I just went completely in on myself, and that 46 00:03:41,270 --> 00:03:46,309 feeling of someone is going to find me out could not have been more true. I remember being 47 00:03:46,309 --> 00:03:51,270 literally stood on the shop floor thinking, at any given moment, someone is going to walk around that 48 00:03:51,270 --> 00:03:57,069 corner and say to me, uh, Heather, I think you must have lied your way to get here, or I don't think, I 49 00:03:57,070 --> 00:04:02,709 think we've chose the wrong person or we know this is. This was a big one. We know that. You know, 50 00:04:02,710 --> 00:04:06,710 you don't know what you're doing. I was like, someone is going to say that to me at some point 51 00:04:06,710 --> 00:04:10,990 soon, and they're going to drag me off the shop floor and send me back to Donny, aka, which is 52 00:04:10,990 --> 00:04:15,829 Doncaster, where I'm from. And it was that just constant feeling of like, I felt like I'd been 53 00:04:15,829 --> 00:04:20,589 lucky. I felt like I didn't deserve the opportunity and I couldn't see that. Even though I 54 00:04:20,590 --> 00:04:24,829 had all these brilliant external achievements, I had absolutely done everything to earn the place 55 00:04:24,829 --> 00:04:30,109 in that job. It was just a bit of growth. It was probably a little bit ahead of the experience 56 00:04:30,109 --> 00:04:34,670 that I had, and therefore my internal narrative just like couldn't quite close the gap. There was 57 00:04:34,670 --> 00:04:41,310 one other time, and this was a bit more recently, I was there was one at a time that was a bit more 58 00:04:41,310 --> 00:04:47,350 recently whereby I was working at sage, so big corporate, I was an ops director inside sage. I 59 00:04:47,350 --> 00:04:51,390 walked into this specific boardroom in the Manchester office, so it was about 25 other people 60 00:04:51,390 --> 00:04:57,029 in this room, and every single leader in that room was at least 20 years my senior, incredibly 61 00:04:57,029 --> 00:05:02,590 experienced, great at their job and we were discussing like a new company wide project 62 00:05:02,590 --> 00:05:08,869 initiative. I just felt frozen. I thought, why on earth should I share my opinion on anything 63 00:05:08,869 --> 00:05:13,349 that's going on here? Because as soon as I open my mouth, everyone that's looking at me in this room 64 00:05:13,350 --> 00:05:18,268 is going to think who? Sorry, who? Why is she speaking? Why is that child speaking or why is 65 00:05:18,269 --> 00:05:23,389 that? You know, why is she here again? And it was just this true, pure sense of like, I am an 66 00:05:23,390 --> 00:05:27,549 imposter in this room and someone's going to find me out. And so I know there's a lot of talk around 67 00:05:27,549 --> 00:05:31,629 the fact that imposter syndrome was just something that was kind of coined, the term that 68 00:05:31,630 --> 00:05:36,549 was coined to hold women back. I think it's actually the opposite. I think imposter syndrome 69 00:05:36,549 --> 00:05:42,069 is a really beautiful sign that you're in the right place, that you're growing, that you are just 70 00:05:42,070 --> 00:05:47,269 pushing yourself. You're expanding into that like next stage of your growth. I honestly think now 71 00:05:47,269 --> 00:05:52,469 when I get more scared, when things start to feel too comfortable, um, you know, if I'm, like, speaking 72 00:05:52,469 --> 00:05:57,189 in rooms and doing workshops and those workshops start to feel really easy for me to deliver and 73 00:05:57,189 --> 00:06:01,259 I'm really comfortable. I'm like, oh, I've stopped pushing myself here. I've stopped challenging 74 00:06:01,260 --> 00:06:06,139 myself and growing something else. I feel imposter syndrome around right now is that I have recently 75 00:06:06,140 --> 00:06:11,859 done a public speaking gig in the Cayman Islands, of all places. So, um, a conference HR conference 76 00:06:11,859 --> 00:06:17,179 have flown me all the way to the Cayman Islands to deliver a public speaking talk. It's the most 77 00:06:17,179 --> 00:06:21,819 amount of money I've ever been paid for one talk. It is the biggest stage I will stand on that have 78 00:06:21,820 --> 00:06:26,019 stood on and will stand on for a long time. And my imposter syndrome, oh my God is flaring up. Like 79 00:06:26,019 --> 00:06:30,220 the amount of times that I have been thinking, am I good enough to do this? Have they booked the 80 00:06:30,220 --> 00:06:35,100 wrong person? Have I like oversold to them and they're going to be disappointed by me? Like trust 81 00:06:35,100 --> 00:06:39,578 me, I don't think it ever goes away, but it is just a sign that you're in the right place and you're 82 00:06:39,579 --> 00:06:43,419 doing the right things. Because I know I'm going to go on that stage and deliver the best talk of 83 00:06:43,420 --> 00:06:47,619 my life because I know how prepared I am. I know how much effort I put into things. And they've 84 00:06:47,619 --> 00:06:53,059 also already seen the talk on YouTube. So like, it's it's exactly what they want. I'm just I need 85 00:06:53,059 --> 00:06:57,779 to now expand into this better version of myself. So whatever it is, you feel imposter syndrome 86 00:06:57,779 --> 00:07:02,339 about. Maybe there's sort of moments, feelings, situations that you kind of feel the sense of 87 00:07:02,339 --> 00:07:07,339 imposter syndrome over. I just want you to hold that and use it as reference. As we go through the 88 00:07:07,340 --> 00:07:12,219 next few parts of this episode. Something that's always been interesting to me is the people who 89 00:07:12,220 --> 00:07:18,339 feel imposter syndrome often are the ones who are actually the most capable. Because if you think 90 00:07:18,339 --> 00:07:24,899 about it, imposter syndrome is almost like this gap between your actual competence meaning so 91 00:07:24,899 --> 00:07:29,179 someone has put you in a role, has put you in this position because they believe you can do it, 92 00:07:29,219 --> 00:07:34,259 versus your brain. Then having to catch up and believe that you can do it. And so therefore, I 93 00:07:34,260 --> 00:07:39,540 often think the people who feel that sense of imposter syndrome usually are the high performers, 94 00:07:39,580 --> 00:07:43,499 like they are the people who deserve to be there, sometimes more than a lot of other people in the 95 00:07:43,499 --> 00:07:47,540 room. So no matter how much experience you have, how many decades of, you know, leadership roles, 96 00:07:47,540 --> 00:07:52,459 whatever that you've got is someone who is consistently willing to learn more and more every 97 00:07:52,459 --> 00:07:56,779 single day. If you just think about how much the workplace has changed over the last six years 98 00:07:56,779 --> 00:08:02,499 alone. Six years ago, pre-COVID, we were. Most of us were going into an office every single day. I knew 99 00:08:02,499 --> 00:08:06,779 I was going into an office every single day, having doing work on computers. A lot of us 100 00:08:06,780 --> 00:08:12,739 weren't even using laptops. We had like fixed computers at our desks. Um, fast forward to now 101 00:08:12,779 --> 00:08:18,579 2026. The world just did a complete 180 with the world of work overnight. We now know that remote 102 00:08:18,579 --> 00:08:23,820 work is possible. It's productive, it's important. But also, Gen Z have also started entering the 103 00:08:23,820 --> 00:08:29,099 workforce in rapid rates. They kind of brought with them a whole new set of expectations. If you 104 00:08:29,099 --> 00:08:34,659 allow your leadership, if a leader that got their first management job even ten years ago, which is 105 00:08:34,659 --> 00:08:40,819 me, that was me ten years ago, my first management job, and today X stopped learning and said, let's 106 00:08:40,820 --> 00:08:44,739 say I've done my learning. I'm not willing to learn anything more. Imagine how dangerous that 107 00:08:44,739 --> 00:08:49,658 would be for that team and for that business, because the world just moves on so much even now 108 00:08:49,659 --> 00:08:56,579 in the age of AI. Like if you are a manager who is unwilling to learn more. Is it 109 00:08:56,579 --> 00:09:01,139 unwilling to kind of go, let's experiment with this, let's test this. If you are completely closed 110 00:09:01,140 --> 00:09:06,219 off from experimenting and trying new things, you will be one of those leaders in 510 years time 111 00:09:06,219 --> 00:09:10,699 that was left behind. I know that you listen to this right now. Have your own example of a leader, 112 00:09:10,700 --> 00:09:15,419 a manager who is in your life. Maybe they're in your company, maybe they're in your family who run 113 00:09:15,420 --> 00:09:20,699 a business. They manage a team and they're stuck behind because they're unwilling to, like, grow and 114 00:09:20,700 --> 00:09:25,859 learn. You will see the impact that that has on their team. And so imposter syndrome, just use it 115 00:09:25,859 --> 00:09:31,259 as a signal, just feel it, use it as a signal. And that like, no, it's just pointing you towards 116 00:09:31,260 --> 00:09:36,099 growth and wanting more. And something I always like to think with imposter syndrome is the one 117 00:09:36,099 --> 00:09:41,459 thing that you feel the most vulnerable about. So for me, it was my age. It's my northern accent, just 118 00:09:41,460 --> 00:09:44,699 the fact that I'm from the north and a lot of those rooms that I was in, there was some very 119 00:09:44,700 --> 00:09:49,779 posh Southerners there who, you know, spoke very eloquently, could very clearly articulate 120 00:09:49,780 --> 00:09:54,259 themselves. And they were the things that I started to feel imposter syndrome over, like my, my 121 00:09:54,260 --> 00:10:00,809 age, my experience and my voice. Just my own voice. And if I could go back and tell Heather, like even 122 00:10:00,809 --> 00:10:06,369 five years ago, six years ago, one thing, it would be all those things you feel the most vulnerable 123 00:10:06,369 --> 00:10:11,650 about. You feel the most imposter syndrome over. They are your superpowers. Not only that, they are 124 00:10:11,650 --> 00:10:16,529 the reason you're in that room. So the reason they needed me to be in those rooms was because of my 125 00:10:16,530 --> 00:10:20,809 age, because of my lack of experience. It brings such an important quality to the team. A question 126 00:10:20,809 --> 00:10:26,249 that I often get asked about managers is, what do I do when I manage a team who have a skill that I 127 00:10:26,249 --> 00:10:31,570 don't have? So, for example, I used to manage a dev team development team in product development. I 128 00:10:31,729 --> 00:10:37,609 had no coding experience whatsoever at that time. Okay, yet I was managing a product manager at full 129 00:10:37,609 --> 00:10:42,209 development team QA. We were doing sprints, all that fun stuff. For anyone who knows the dev world. 130 00:10:42,209 --> 00:10:47,329 It's a whole like another complex project management world. And I was managing that. I was 131 00:10:47,329 --> 00:10:51,769 managing this group of devs who had studied, gone to uni for a very long time to learn this 132 00:10:51,770 --> 00:10:57,050 specific skill and honed this craft. And then the day I would say to them things like, so when can 133 00:10:57,050 --> 00:11:02,569 you get me this work for? Or why has the deadline moved? Why has this fallen down? They could tell me 134 00:11:02,569 --> 00:11:06,769 anything, oh my God. Like they could tell me literally anything and I wouldn't have a clue 135 00:11:06,810 --> 00:11:11,849 what they were talking about. And I my imposter syndrome really kicked in then because I used to 136 00:11:11,849 --> 00:11:15,610 think, well, I can't tell them what to do, I can't correct them, I can't kind of challenge them and 137 00:11:15,610 --> 00:11:20,169 coach them and push them, because I don't have a clue, like I don't know what they're doing. I 138 00:11:20,210 --> 00:11:25,249 reframed it, of course, and I was like, okay, what if my biggest vulnerability here is actually a 139 00:11:25,249 --> 00:11:31,369 superpower? What if the fact that I don't have development skills actually gives me almost this, 140 00:11:31,409 --> 00:11:37,409 like external perspective on project management, on features that the product needs on timelines? 141 00:11:37,409 --> 00:11:41,608 Because I can say I remember one thing so clearly, which was like one of the devs would come back 142 00:11:41,609 --> 00:11:46,009 with a timeline for a feature being added, and I could question them by saying, I completely 143 00:11:46,010 --> 00:11:51,089 respect your timeline. If we had to get that down by a week, how does the scope of work need to 144 00:11:51,090 --> 00:11:56,009 reduce? So you know, we have to deliver it for this time. But I appreciate you can't get all of it 145 00:11:56,010 --> 00:12:01,049 done. So can we get half of it done? Can we get, like, the minimum viable version of that feature 146 00:12:01,050 --> 00:12:06,530 ready. And we ship it on this date? If I was a developer with a developer head on inside the 147 00:12:06,530 --> 00:12:11,209 code and inside that work, I would have really struggled to give that external perspective. Do 148 00:12:11,210 --> 00:12:15,449 you see how we're just kind of flipping those things that we feel really insecure about, really 149 00:12:15,450 --> 00:12:21,489 vulnerable about into? This actually makes me a great leader. This is actually my USP is my 150 00:12:21,489 --> 00:12:25,809 superpower. A lot of the times things people say about imposter syndrome is like, well, just find 151 00:12:25,810 --> 00:12:30,009 the confidence. You just need to build up your confidence. And I know better than anyone else 152 00:12:30,010 --> 00:12:34,649 that you can't just find confidence. Like if we have a sense of nervousness over something or, you 153 00:12:34,650 --> 00:12:38,529 know, maybe public speaking is a really good example because I used to feel really nervous 154 00:12:38,530 --> 00:12:44,969 over like presenting at work, public speaking at work. What I had to come to realise was you can't 155 00:12:44,969 --> 00:12:50,209 just get confident. Confidence is a skill and it's a muscle that we have to build. And I learned at 156 00:12:50,209 --> 00:12:55,280 some point in my career that I was terrified of public speaking. But in order to be a great leader, 157 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,320 to be the leader that I wanted to be, I needed to kind of learn that skill. I didn't need to be 158 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:04,039 perfect at it, but I just needed to know how to present in a way that inspired my team. And, you 159 00:13:04,039 --> 00:13:08,718 know, I could say the things that they needed to hear instead of just constantly focusing on, am I 160 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:13,080 saying the right thing? Do they think I look stupid? Am I going to make a mistake? And I realise 161 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:17,799 this very early on that I had so much like nervousness and weirdness around presenting. So I 162 00:13:17,799 --> 00:13:23,759 started flexing the muscle, I started practising, I started watching YouTube videos like learning and 163 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,679 understanding how to deliver good talks, how to inspire people, how to bring people along for the 164 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:33,640 journey and then just start doing it, like start going to small Toastmasters things. So 165 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,759 Toastmasters is just an organisation where you can get in a room. They have them all over the 166 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,479 globe. You can get in a room with like five other people who also want to level up in public 167 00:13:41,479 --> 00:13:47,679 speaking, and you just do a pitch, you do a five minute pitch, and then you just score each other 168 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:51,719 and you give each other feedback, and you help each other to feel confident. If you want the 169 00:13:51,719 --> 00:13:57,039 confidence to improve in a skill. If you want to build that confidence, muscle and skill in any 170 00:13:57,039 --> 00:14:02,119 area, you do just have to go and practice it. I'll tell you something else. I feel this is a random 171 00:14:02,119 --> 00:14:07,519 one, but I was really scared of flying until very recently. Um, not to the point where it would, like, 172 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:12,159 stop me getting on a plane. I would still get on the plane, but to the point where I would be a 173 00:14:12,159 --> 00:14:19,159 complete, like frozen, anxiety driven, like tears in my eyes, ball of nerves on a plane. 174 00:14:19,159 --> 00:14:25,439 And I could just about relax. Probably if we were mid-flight and it got really smooth and, you know, 175 00:14:25,479 --> 00:14:29,559 you couldn't feel I could just relax. But other than that, I was that person who, you know, when you 176 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:34,399 were on a long haul flight and you can put the altitude thing on, on the screen, like you can 177 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,679 watch the pilots. I would literally just sit and stare at that and just make sure that the 178 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,919 altitude was staying exactly as it was. I still to this day, I've never been on a long haul flight on 179 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,360 my own because I can't. I always find an excuse for someone to come with me if I'm travelling for 180 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:50,959 work, I'm like, oh, we need to bring someone along to take content or to just be my support person, I 181 00:14:50,959 --> 00:14:57,199 don't know, but now I'm actually not scared of flying. I don't want to say it's completely gone 182 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,960 away. It's still very strange. I actually sometimes get confused by people who are like, completely 183 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,320 relaxed on flights. I'm like, you do realise you're in like a tin can flying through the sky. Anyway, 184 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,879 it's got so much better to the point where now I'm not a ball of nerves, I can relax, I can chill 185 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,999 out. I actually had a sleep on a plane a few months ago. On the way back from Thailand. I 186 00:15:13,999 --> 00:15:17,519 managed to get three hours sleep, which is never. I would have never done that this time a couple of 187 00:15:17,519 --> 00:15:20,639 years ago because I would just be. It doesn't matter what time of night is, it doesn't matter 188 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:27,079 how much melatonin I've taken. I am wide awake because I'm just full of anxiety. But I knew that 189 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:32,279 this and it's not imposter syndrome. It's more just phobia, it's fear. But I just needed to flex 190 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:38,280 the muscle. And so something I used to do was I would listen to flying podcasts, listen to pilot 191 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:44,119 podcasts to understand the world of flying. Like understand why it's safe, understand what pilots 192 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,999 do in emergency situations, why turbulence isn't dangerous, watch YouTube videos eventually. Now my 193 00:15:48,999 --> 00:15:54,359 algorithm is just all planes like I could literally name every plane in the sky, but it's 194 00:15:54,360 --> 00:16:00,280 because I had this fear and I it was almost like I needed to kind of take control of that one area 195 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:05,120 of my life and learn and understand it and get better at it. And I did that with public speaking. 196 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,679 I did it also with difficult conversations. This is another big one. If you are someone right now 197 00:16:09,679 --> 00:16:16,239 who's sitting there thinking, I hate conflict, I avoid conflict like the plague, then the only way 198 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,558 to get better at having difficult conversations in your leadership role is to just go and have 199 00:16:20,559 --> 00:16:25,479 them and have them messy. I would also say go and ask for feedback. First. See how it feels to be on 200 00:16:25,479 --> 00:16:29,199 the receiving end of that feedback. Because feedback is a gift. And even though you'll realise 201 00:16:29,199 --> 00:16:34,439 getting the feedback will hurt in the moment. So just go and ask your team a question in a one on 202 00:16:34,439 --> 00:16:40,279 one. Something like, um, you know what? One thing would you change about the way I manage you? It 203 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:45,360 might take asking them a few times before you get a proper answer, but when they tell you the answer, 204 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,639 it will sting a little bit, like it's going to hurt a little bit. You know, no one likes hearing 205 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:54,309 negative things about themselves, but what you'll realise is as you go away and start to work on 206 00:16:54,349 --> 00:17:00,669 that thing and change that thing, it very quickly becomes a gift. It's a gift because you see that 207 00:17:00,669 --> 00:17:05,789 that feedback was really important for you to learn and to grow. So when it comes to imposter 208 00:17:05,790 --> 00:17:12,390 syndrome, when it comes to nervousness around a skill, around a very specific thing in your life, 209 00:17:12,430 --> 00:17:18,909 lean into it like explore it more, don't shy away from it. Go and really lean into it. Test it, figure 210 00:17:18,910 --> 00:17:24,389 it out and you know, try. Just try the thing. Just test the thing. Go and watch YouTube videos about 211 00:17:24,389 --> 00:17:28,749 the thing. I saw something on social media the other day, and I'm telling you, it was on social 212 00:17:28,749 --> 00:17:32,150 media because I don't actually know how true it is, but it was someone's social media video, so 213 00:17:32,150 --> 00:17:37,509 please go. Fact checked me, but someone said that the thing that often you are the most like 214 00:17:37,550 --> 00:17:42,189 obsessed with. So if you have an obsession with something in your life, is can often be the same 215 00:17:42,189 --> 00:17:47,430 thing that you are fearful of. And for me that was planed because it's like, what are you trying to 216 00:17:47,430 --> 00:17:53,709 control? What is the thing that you almost think about so much that it reveals a bit of an 217 00:17:53,709 --> 00:17:59,029 insecurity in yourself. Another step to overcome imposter syndrome that I found really useful is 218 00:17:59,390 --> 00:18:05,429 stop treating feelings as facts. Like we really have to separate feelings from fact. So when I'm 219 00:18:05,430 --> 00:18:12,309 sat in that room with all those people who are 20 years my senior, I am feeling inexperienced. I am 220 00:18:12,310 --> 00:18:16,989 feeling as though my voice is not important. I am feeling as though if I speak, everyone's going to 221 00:18:16,990 --> 00:18:22,870 think I'm stupid. Those are feelings. Feelings are valid. Feelings are important. But I have to 222 00:18:22,910 --> 00:18:28,709 separate those things from the truth. Which are the facts? The facts are I have been promoted. I 223 00:18:28,709 --> 00:18:33,429 have been given a pay rise. I am put in this room because people want to hear my opinion. Maybe not 224 00:18:33,430 --> 00:18:38,429 everyone, maybe not everyone, but at least a few people in this room value my opinion, want to hear 225 00:18:38,430 --> 00:18:43,949 it and respect that opinion. Also, the fact is I come from a very different perspective. There's a 226 00:18:43,949 --> 00:18:47,709 lot of people in this room because I am younger than them, so I've kind of experienced the 227 00:18:47,710 --> 00:18:52,389 workplace in in a slightly different way from a slightly different angle, and therefore my opinion 228 00:18:52,389 --> 00:18:57,509 is equally as important as theirs. And maybe we'll bring some diversity to the room too. So I need 229 00:18:57,509 --> 00:19:02,389 you to find a way to whatever you're feeling the most imposter syndrome around that thing that you 230 00:19:02,430 --> 00:19:08,829 named earlier in the episode. Write down the feelings versus the facts, because I guarantee the 231 00:19:08,830 --> 00:19:14,069 facts are so much more of a positive story than the one that kind of like your inner monologue is 232 00:19:14,069 --> 00:19:18,910 trying to convince you of. Which brings me really nicely onto my next point, which is you need to 233 00:19:18,910 --> 00:19:24,309 have like an evidence audit. So once you write those things down, I want you to go even deeper. 234 00:19:24,349 --> 00:19:28,430 Start thinking, what is some great feedback you've had? If you don't already have a folder within 235 00:19:28,430 --> 00:19:32,830 your drive where you just screenshot good feedback and whack it in there for a rainy day, 236 00:19:32,830 --> 00:19:36,109 when you're feeling a bit down and you need to go view it, you need to get one of those set up like 237 00:19:36,150 --> 00:19:40,269 we have one about the business. Anytime someone tells me that we've kind of impacted their life 238 00:19:40,269 --> 00:19:44,629 in a really positive way, I screenshot it. I throw it in a folder, I send it around to the team 239 00:19:44,629 --> 00:19:49,749 because there are many, many dark days, especially being on social media. The amount of really 240 00:19:49,749 --> 00:19:55,949 difficult comments I get about my work and my body, my face, my everything. It can get you down. 241 00:19:55,990 --> 00:20:02,029 Trust me, it can drive you to the pits of hell. So you need those positive things to pull you out. 242 00:20:02,069 --> 00:20:06,829 You know, my suffering isn't any worse than anyone else's. Like you will have those days as well, 243 00:20:06,829 --> 00:20:10,868 where you feel as though people work on making you feel like that. Maybe someone's made a comment 244 00:20:10,869 --> 00:20:16,029 that it's just ringing around in your head over and over again. The way that you pull yourself out 245 00:20:16,030 --> 00:20:22,030 of that is by having this almost like evidence audit good feedback. The days that you do feel 246 00:20:22,030 --> 00:20:26,269 good, like when you are feeling your best self and you are feeling on top right something to 247 00:20:26,270 --> 00:20:31,429 yourself to remind yourself how you're feeling when you need it the most. So just keep some sort 248 00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:36,629 of audit, whether it's in a notebook, a drive folder, just something that's like almost your 249 00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:41,629 internal monologue in the most positive way possible that you can keep dipping back into when 250 00:20:41,630 --> 00:20:47,149 you need it the most. Something that's really helped pull me out of insecurity. Feeling 251 00:20:47,149 --> 00:20:52,059 vulnerable about myself. Something that really pulled me through over the years is taking it 252 00:20:52,060 --> 00:20:58,660 away from me and focusing it on other people. What I mean by that is when I step on a stage and I'm 253 00:20:58,660 --> 00:21:03,899 feeling nervous as hell, right? I remember the TEDx talk I did last year and I was feeling so 254 00:21:03,939 --> 00:21:10,339 terrified, like literally dripping, so shaky. I've never felt so scared in my life to do a talk 255 00:21:10,339 --> 00:21:14,140 because all my family were in the audience. It was being recorded and put up on YouTube. Obviously, 256 00:21:14,180 --> 00:21:19,938 Ted is just like a bucket list thing to do. It's a dream. And so I just felt all the nerves, the the 257 00:21:19,939 --> 00:21:25,579 mantra. I kept repeating. The thing I had to keep, keep reminding myself of is this is not for me. 258 00:21:25,579 --> 00:21:30,979 I'm not doing this for me. I'm doing this for just one person in the audience, one person watching on 259 00:21:30,979 --> 00:21:35,539 YouTube who really needs to hear the words that I'm about to say. And when you take the focus away 260 00:21:35,540 --> 00:21:41,219 from you and really put it on, I'm just helping people. I'm growing people. I'm moving people 261 00:21:41,219 --> 00:21:45,539 forward. And that's what leadership is. When you take the insecurity away from you and think, you 262 00:21:45,539 --> 00:21:50,540 know, I need to not be insecure about this thing because people need me. I know that you are 263 00:21:50,540 --> 00:21:54,180 listening to this because you are a great leader. Whether you're one right now or you're going to 264 00:21:54,180 --> 00:21:58,019 be one in the future. I know that's why you're listening, because the shit managers don't listen 265 00:21:58,019 --> 00:22:03,299 to this kind of personal development. So trust me, you're already up there, okay? The world needs you, 266 00:22:03,300 --> 00:22:08,099 is what I'm going to say. The world really fucking needs you right now. And so it's almost like my 267 00:22:08,099 --> 00:22:14,819 insecurities. I can sometimes help them to feel a bit smaller when I put it in the context of, I 268 00:22:14,819 --> 00:22:19,619 need to take this away from me and just focus on helping other people, helping my team, helping my 269 00:22:19,620 --> 00:22:25,619 business, helping my friends, helping my family. Um, and that's where imposter syndrome in my head can 270 00:22:25,619 --> 00:22:29,379 shrink a little bit if, you know, just going back to that room again with the people who are 20 271 00:22:29,379 --> 00:22:35,219 years my senior, going back to that specific boardroom, if the people I'm doing it for, then is 272 00:22:35,219 --> 00:22:39,299 the people in my team who are also a lot younger than I am, who are also a lot more inexperienced 273 00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:44,619 than I am, who I need to bring their voice to the table. I need to advocate for their voice in this 274 00:22:44,619 --> 00:22:48,699 room, and the company are thinking about new company wide initiatives. If I don't speak up, 275 00:22:48,859 --> 00:22:53,499 their voice isn't going to get heard. I represent them, I represent their voice. And so something 276 00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:58,979 that has really helped me is taken it away from me. Another huge one is just normalised not 277 00:22:58,979 --> 00:23:04,579 knowing, like when did we as humans decide that we have to be perfect and say the right thing all 278 00:23:04,579 --> 00:23:08,939 the time? I think the internet has a big bearing on this and it pisses me off a lot. It's like we 279 00:23:08,939 --> 00:23:12,939 don't have to know everything, normalise just getting it wrong. Normalise just saying. Hmm, I'm 280 00:23:12,939 --> 00:23:16,859 not sure. Let me get back to you on that one. You know, I think sometimes imposter syndrome will 281 00:23:16,860 --> 00:23:21,859 come up in a difficult conversation whereby if you go to give your team member difficult 282 00:23:21,859 --> 00:23:26,939 feedback, we worry that they're going to come back and say something that then we can't respond to. 283 00:23:26,979 --> 00:23:30,739 Do you know what I mean? Like, we worry that they're going to get really assertive with their 284 00:23:30,740 --> 00:23:35,578 opinion to the point where we're like, shit, okay, maybe I was wrong. I'll back off. And that as a 285 00:23:35,579 --> 00:23:40,499 manager is terrifying because you're like, oh, okay. I just kind of lose all the respect. Why did I go 286 00:23:40,499 --> 00:23:44,259 in there in the first place? I convinced myself that I'm in the wrong, and that is a form of 287 00:23:44,259 --> 00:23:48,540 imposter syndrome as well, because it's this like insecurity that sticks in your head that tells 288 00:23:48,540 --> 00:23:52,859 you, maybe I shouldn't be delivering this conversation. Maybe I'm not qualified enough. Maybe 289 00:23:52,859 --> 00:23:57,818 they're going to come back to me and tell me something and just normalise in those moments, not 290 00:23:57,819 --> 00:24:01,739 knowing the answer. Maybe they will come back to you and say something that's really assertive and 291 00:24:01,739 --> 00:24:05,699 you won't know how to respond. That's okay. We don't need to know how to respond perfectly in 292 00:24:05,699 --> 00:24:10,579 the moment. I would just go away if I truly, truly did not know how to respond. If the conversation 293 00:24:10,579 --> 00:24:15,059 was maybe getting heated, sometimes I would just go away and say, look, this conversation doesn't 294 00:24:15,060 --> 00:24:19,259 feel like it's getting getting solved. It doesn't feel like it's going anywhere. Can we just come 295 00:24:19,260 --> 00:24:23,180 back to it in an hour's time? Can we come back to it tomorrow? Obviously, that's not the first thing 296 00:24:23,180 --> 00:24:27,660 I would say to someone, but also like normalise silence. If they say something and you're not 297 00:24:27,660 --> 00:24:32,619 immediately sure what to say, just say, can I just have a minute to think about that and then also 298 00:24:32,620 --> 00:24:37,299 come back around to the conversation? So I'd say, okay, I appreciate that's how you feel, but it 299 00:24:37,300 --> 00:24:43,979 doesn't remove the fact that X, Y, and Z happened and had this impact. So you may feel this way and 300 00:24:43,979 --> 00:24:48,368 I appreciate that. And we can talk about that but it doesn't remove the impact that your actions 301 00:24:48,369 --> 00:24:54,649 had. And therefore we're having this conversation. Still, we trust people so much more. Who say, I 302 00:24:54,650 --> 00:25:00,049 don't know than people who pretend to have all the answers. That has never been more true for 303 00:25:00,050 --> 00:25:04,529 leadership. As a leader at work, you cannot focus on the concept of perfection because perfection 304 00:25:04,530 --> 00:25:10,529 just doesn't exist for human beings. You have to focus instead on just growth, just getting better. 305 00:25:10,569 --> 00:25:15,129 Growing every single day. Do not focus on perfection because it will just keep you stuck. 306 00:25:15,169 --> 00:25:19,528 This is the third episode of this podcast now, and something I really, really want to hear is your 307 00:25:19,529 --> 00:25:25,529 feedback. Please click follow. If you're on Spotify, you can rate review the episode wherever you're 308 00:25:25,530 --> 00:25:31,529 listening. Honestly, it helps us so much. Drop a comment on the episode. Like the episode? Share it 309 00:25:31,530 --> 00:25:37,530 with your friends. You can DM me. But please review those episodes. Please subscribe. All of it helps. 310 00:25:37,530 --> 00:25:40,930 All of it helps. Just getting that feedback from you. Thank you for listening into the boardroom. 311 00:25:40,930 --> 00:25:42,248 I'll see you in episode four.