[0:00:00] Natalie Jennings: Well, thank you so much, Chris, for being here. And I haven't asked you yet, even though we've been chatting for a few minutes before the record button. Where are you in the world?

[0:00:07] Kris Jones: I am in Portland, Oregon.

[0:00:10] Natalie Jennings: Oh, nice. You have a very fuzzy, cute, warm hat on. And I was like, maybe you're not in Florida.

[0:00:18] Kris Jones: No, I took a really long walk this morning along the river, and it was really, really cold, like the grass was frozen. So, yeah, I've got my hat on today.

[0:00:29] Natalie Jennings: Well, you're talking with the Minnesotan, so it's like eight degrees outside today, so I get the cold 1000%. Yeah, there's no grass.

[0:00:39] Kris Jones: It's that cold.

[0:00:41] Natalie Jennings: There's just piles and piles and piles of snow. It's nice, though. It's like a nice change because it gets really green and inverted here in the summer, so it's like a weird switch. Anyway, we are going to talk a little bit today about copy and using words to attract your clients. And I think what drew me to this conversation and I've covered this before in the podcast, but I love getting different perspectives. And I also just, like, reiterating it because I think as photographers, we're really lucky that we have powerful imagery that can immediately turn people on or off. But I know that a lot of the questions that I get from my students and from the audience have to do with almost always communication. It kind of comes down to words. And as visual artists, I'm sure it's not the first thing we're thinking about. I know this is your area of expertise, and I thought maybe I'd just hand it off to you, maybe say a little bit about what you do, and then we can talk about how to give some photographers a few tips.

[0:01:48] Kris Jones: Sure, absolutely. So my name is Chris. As you know, I'm in Portland, Oregon. I've been in the industry and the marketing industry now 20 years. More than that, a little bit. And yeah, I am really passionate about telling a beautiful story. And as important as the visuals are the words that you use. And when you put the visuals combined with the words together, magic happens. So I started out in the industry as a designer, and so visuals were really my first language. And what I found over the years is that my clients that I would work with to design websites, I would rely on them to write their own copy for their website. And time and time and time and time and time again, they would come to me and just be like, I don't know what to say. How do I do this? And the deadlines would move back or the start dates would move back. And I just watched so many people struggle, and I personally struggled with writing my own copy. So I just decided, like, enough is enough.

[0:03:03] Kris Jones: I'm going to crack the code on this. Maybe it's not as hard as it seems. And I came across a framework called the Story brand Framework. A lot of people are familiar with the framework. A lot of people have read the book. It's called building a story Brand by Donald Miller. He is a brilliant storyteller, and he essentially simplified the components of story, and there are really seven key components of story. And then after really getting to know the framework and using it for many years, I've simplified it even further. So really, it comes down to every story, every movie you've ever watched, any story you've ever heard somebody tell. If it's a good story, if it's a compelling story, it always begins with a hero who has a problem that they can't solve, and that hero then eventually meets a guide that has a solution, and through that relationship, the hero finds success. And that is the mystery behind every story you've ever heard.

[0:04:20] Natalie Jennings: Right?

[0:04:21] Kris Jones: So when you can apply that framework and that's simple, it's three different things. When you can apply that to marketing, all of a sudden you're telling a story that people can really connect with, resonate with, that draws people in and makes them want to work with you because they resonate with you. And when I talk about telling a story, I'm not really talking about once upon a time or the history of my background is it's really about inviting your potential clients into a narrative with you where they're the hero and you are the guide. And that's really like, if you take away nothing else, just the idea that you are the guide and your customers or your clients are the hero, it will change the way you talk about your business.

[0:05:15] Natalie Jennings: Yeah, well, that Donald Miller book is certainly a popular one, and we'll put link to it in the show notes for sure. I want to dig into that and give maybe an example or two for photographers of just what that might look like. But I also want to highlight I was just thinking about how you said, I've been doing this 20 years, and obviously marketing and business has changed. I mean, it's almost unrecognizable, almost year to year. It changes so fast. And I thought I'd maybe just quickly ask you before we dig into the other stuff, how important is copy and story in that timeline? Has it pretty much stayed at the very top of the stack, or have other things kind of come in and change to that?

[0:05:58] Kris Jones: Well, the beautiful thing about storytelling is that it hasn't changed in thousands of years. The only difference is now we know that we can use story in our marketing for it to be much more effective. But as far as what's changed over the 20 years, definitely everything. Like early days, like, gosh, 20 years ago, creating a website, or even 15 years ago, creating a website. If you had beautiful photography and a really clean design, you were golden. Your business would do great.

[0:06:34] Natalie Jennings: Totally.

[0:06:35] Kris Jones: And that's all you needed. And now that's just not really that hard to get between all the stock photos out there and all the pre done templates and squarespace and all of that. And I think it's a good thing because everybody has access to be able to build websites without spending thousands of dollars. So, like, big picture, it's a wonderful thing, but it's really level the playing field. So in order to stand out, you really need to tell a story. And that's really the one thing that requires a high level of strategy and energy.

[0:07:14] Natalie Jennings: Absolutely. So the hero in our story as photographers, our clients need good photos. I guess that would probably be the main problem that they're trying to solve. But I'm also quite certain, at least in my audience, that they also want it to be relatively painless and easy. And if they have little kiddos, quick. And there's a few other points to kind of hit on that. Again, speaking just from lifestyle photography, and we're the guide, so maybe would it be cool to kind of pick it up from there and kind of just talk around that? Give a couple of examples to photographers around how that works?

[0:07:52] Kris Jones: Yeah, every story begins with a hero that has a problem. So think about your clientele, and it would change depending on if you're doing wedding photography. What are their struggles? What are their problems versus family portrait photography? Those clients are going to struggle with different things. So if it were family portrait photography, it might be they're unable to ever get their family altogether in one group because someone had to take the photo in the family, or usually the mom taking the photos. She's not in any of the photos. They might be struggling with the fact that they've got too much going on and they don't have time to capture these important moments of life. That might mean that their house is their family is very vibrant and loving, but there are no visuals on their walls that really show that their house to feel like a home. I mean, there's probably dozens and dozens. Like, what are some that come to mind for you?

[0:09:03] Natalie Jennings: Yeah, you kind of nailed some of them. And then I was thinking about wedding photographers, actually, because we have a lot of those listening and this idea of, like, I want to feel comfortable, confident. I want to know that I don't have to worry about it, that this photographer isn't going to be late or mess up or be rude or too much or there's all these things because you're really sharing a space with someone in a really intimate way. Photographers are often the only ones allowed in certain situations besides the couple or whatever's going on. So I think there's a lot of, like, stress around that. Like, if they pick the wrong person, so many things can essentially go wrong. And if they pick the right person. And if they feel confident that they're the right person, whether that's because you're sharing reviews or because you're really a great person to person, when you do your first meeting with a couple, all of those things play into it. And I think I'm bringing this up only because I think photographers are really just thinking about, like, oh, my gosh, I'm shooting at that church. I can't wait to put them by that window. They're so often just thinking about the visual and the product that all of these other things that apply to the hero's problem are not actually to do with photography. I mean, obviously a portion of it are, but, like, some of it is just totally different stuff.

[0:10:24] Kris Jones: Totally. Yeah, exactly. Everybody thinks that we make decisions based on facts. Like, okay, I'm having a wedding. I need it to be photographed, and so check the box. I need a photographer. But we really make our decisions based on emotions. So if you can put people's emotions at ease through what you say on your website and help them understand, you've got this. You're the guide. You've done this a million times before. You know how to capture those moments. You know how to put people at ease. You know how to be an invisible force, right, that's going to capture these moments and eliminate the stress for the bride. So all those things are, like, problems that you can help them understand, that you recognize. And what's interesting, when we are really clear and we really articulate their struggles or their problems, the things that are keeping them up at night, when we articulate that, the better we articulate it, the more quickly they're going to immediately think we're the ones that can solve it 1000%.

[0:11:34] Natalie Jennings: And this is that piece with photographers where if you're listening, what are all of the things that you do really well? Maybe you're super punctual. You have an easy sign up booking system. All of these things, like, you're really fast with little kids, you're great with dogs. I don't know. Say all of those things, say them all the time. Because those are the things, like, you just said that I think photographers forget to talk about. I mean, they just really just talk about the product. And I can't stress enough how much it helps to talk about all that other stuff.

[0:12:06] Kris Jones: Yes, it's so true. You want to talk about all that other stuff as it relates to your client. You definitely want to show the benefits of working with you. Of course. You really want to show how are they going to succeed because of this? Like, how are they their life going to be like after this because they've hired you? They're going to have these incredible albums forever. They're going to have these moments that are embedded into their memories because you've captured those. So we really want to make sure we speak to the happy end result that all of this is going to provide for them.

[0:12:47] Natalie Jennings: And that's where the story comes in, right?

[0:12:49] Kris Jones: It is. So we've got the hero that has a problem. So we articulate their problems so they feel seen, they feel heard, they resonate with you and they automatically think that you're the best one to solve this problem because you simply articulated it. And then that hero meets a guide with a solution. And this is where you enter in to the story. Notice you don't talk about yourself at the beginning of the story, you talk about the hero. And then about halfway through your page, that's when you've really earned their trust and earned the right to introduce yourself as the guide. And the idea is really to position your services as the solution to their problem. Yeah, I'm going to repeat that. So we want to position your services as a solution to their problem. And when we do that, we become the guide. We do that through empathy. We do it through authority and positioning our services in that way. And empathy, a guide has been there, done that, and understands kind of the frustration or the fear or the struggle that their hero is going through. And so you just kind of empathize like, hey, I get this, this is hard, this is a big decision.

[0:14:05] Kris Jones: There's a lot writing on this decision and it feels like the last thing you want is more stress on your big day. So through that empathy and through authority, people just want to know that you know what you're doing, basically. And authority can come through in a few different ways. It's really pretty easy to do. You could say like 125 number of weddings shot or twelve years in the business or some kind of certification that you might have.

[0:14:39] Natalie Jennings: Yes. Awards, all that kind of stuff.

[0:14:41] Kris Jones: Testimonials can be a great way to do that. Build authority too. So that's part two. We've got a hero with a problem, they meet a guide with a solution and then that hero finds success. And it's your job as the guide to show them what success looks like.

[0:14:58] Natalie Jennings: Can I pause you for a quick second before we go into that what success looks like?

[0:15:02] Kris Jones: Yes.

[0:15:03] Natalie Jennings: You had mentioned to not at first just jump in with your solution as the guide.

[0:15:09] Kris Jones: Yes.

[0:15:10] Natalie Jennings: What could that kind of look like that time period? Is it like a series of emails or is it like I mean, how does that look to someone who just comes into a business as someone that needs, we'll just say like a wedding photographer, how long is that journey until you step in and go, I know what you need.

[0:15:27] Kris Jones: Right.

[0:15:28] Natalie Jennings: Or what does that kind of look like? Does that make sense, what I'm asking?

[0:15:31] Kris Jones: It totally makes sense. And if you want to go to my website, Reddoordesigns.com, you can see all of this in action, but it all happens on your web page, but it happens in a specific order. A lot of self employed people, we talk about ourselves right off the bat at the beginning, before we've really established resonance with the person who is coming to our website. So part of how we establish that resonance is letting them know that we understand where they're at. We care about their problem, we care about solving that problem for them, and we show them what success looks like. So what that means on your website, and this is true for pretty much all your social media posts, even your social media profiles, your email signature, you can put these messages in there and I'll kind of talk you through what that looks like if we have time. But essentially on the home page of your website, you want to start with the problem. You want to communicate maybe five bullets that they're struggling with, and then you want to follow that by painting a picture of what's possible. Our brains are just constantly scanning our environment to figure out how we're going to thrive, how we're going to survive. And so we want to just spoon feed that up to them right off the bat. And this is not features yet. We just want to show them how are they going to thrive. And that might be, like I mentioned before, after the fact, after they've worked with you, how's their life going to be better for it. So you want to do that right off the bat and then you want to introduce yourself as the hero through empathy and authority.

[0:17:17] Natalie Jennings: Perfect. That's very helpful. Let's jump back into the success correction.

[0:17:23] Kris Jones: Then you introduce yourself as the guide, not the hero.

[0:17:27] Natalie Jennings: Not the hero. You're right. I didn't even catch that either. And now I'm like, oh, yeah, we are the guides, the business owners.

[0:17:34] Kris Jones: You are the yoda. You are the Yoda to Luke Skywalker.

[0:17:38] Natalie Jennings: Yeah. So folks are in that place. And then I kind of cut you off for that question. But now we want to show them what success looks like. Is that what you said for sort of like number three?

[0:17:46] Kris Jones: Yeah. So think of three ways that their life will be better because they've worked with you. And that might just be for wedding photographer. You can probably come up with a ton of these ideas, but examples might be be able to have photos that you one day show your kids and capture your special day and even moments that you weren't even aware of that happened. There's all kinds of beautiful things that happen because of the work that you do. What ideas do you have?

[0:18:22] Natalie Jennings: Well, I always go to sort of easing that stress, like being a fly on the wall, making sure that everything's captured, you don't have to worry about it, that you'll have a beautiful story, punctuality, communication, just all of that stuff really eases people's minds and letting them know that they can just stop worrying about it. Because I think particularly for weddings, if you can take worry off their list, like, oh, photographer is all good off the list. If you can do that as soon as possible with, like you said, with authority and all of those things, that's another podcast. But that's what a great sales call will do, is just when you can take that off their plate before they've even booked with you, where they're like, oh, we just need this person because we don't want to think about this anymore. I think that's a really big one.

[0:19:08] Kris Jones: Right. You bring up a really good point with the sales call. So the idea is that your website is your sales call, right? So if you've done your homework and you've done your work and you're telling a really powerful story on your website, then by the time they get on the call with you, they're already sold on you. They just want to essentially talk through a couple of details and book it. And so I found with my clients, just that amount of time saved and effort of sales calls is really eliminated, which is such a gift.

[0:19:44] Natalie Jennings: Yeah. And you can really tell when you're doing something. I have a private coaching program called the Greenhouse, and that sales page is almost exactly like what we've been talking about, but it's quite detailed. There's testimonials, there's the problems right up front, there's, all that kind of stuff. And the folks that I've worked within that container have all jumped on the sales call and just been ready. They just had like a few questions. And I think you can tell because when I reflect on that first iteration of that program, like three years ago, I was not doing a good job communicating that. So there were people saying no, and there were people that had a lot of questions. And anytime I tell Audrey and I, who is my co host, we talk about this a lot, but anytime clients are coming to you with lots of questions or if you find yourself being like, why do people keep asking how to check out of their cart or whatever? The thing is, we all have these things that pop up that are redundant. It's almost always because you're not explaining it super well and just remembering that you are the one in your business all day long, every day. And so it might be completely obvious to you, but it's not obvious to a new person almost ever.

[0:20:55] Kris Jones: Yeah, that's called the curse of knowledge. And it's really common for anyone who's an expert in their field. We forget what it's like to not know what we know and so we end up speaking to other people or potential clients as if they get it and with language that goes over their head.

[0:21:15] Natalie Jennings: That's right.

[0:21:15] Kris Jones: That's a really common thing. And it can be eliminated just by paying attention to those questions like you're talking about or putting it in front of a friend's eyes and saying, okay, if you didn't know me, what would be your takeaway from this page?

[0:21:30] Natalie Jennings: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's exactly in my program I have the baby boomer test, which I lovingly call because my folks are of that generation. And I'll just say, can you just look at this and figure out how to get from A to B? And if they can't, then it probably needs to be simplified because it's just a really good metric for sort of the average person that isn't constantly in a techie space.

[0:21:53] Kris Jones: Right, true.

[0:21:54] Natalie Jennings: Just one example, but I totally agree with that. Before we jump off, I think this is an amazing thing to think about already. I know people listening are like, oh gosh, I don't have any of that on my site. But let's maybe just reiterate like if I were to go to so and so's website and they're a wedding photographer, what should they have as far as just one more time kind of what should we see as a client? That is where the hero that has major anxiety about wanting to find a competent, talented wedding photographer?

[0:22:27] Kris Jones: So what do you want to see on their website?

[0:22:30] Natalie Jennings: Yeah, like right away, what are we looking for?

[0:22:33] Kris Jones: What you want to do upfront in that upper hero section is you just want to clearly articulate what you do. I'm a photographer who photographs weddings. You could probably make it a little bit more interesting, but it should be so stupid simple. It shouldn't have to burn any brain calories to figure out what you do and who you do it for.

[0:22:58] Natalie Jennings: Yeah, and I was going to say your Instagram is like that your bio. How would you tell someone what you do if you were just talking to your friends, oh, I do blah blah blah blah. So that blah blah blah blah. It can be that easy. Rather than it being really kind of esoteric and trying to figure out what's going on. For example, photo business help was named photo business help because I was like, well, that's what it is. I was like, maybe we could call it clicking with I mean, I went through all and there's a lot of great photo businesses. I don't want to offend anybody that have really funky names and that's cool, but for me this is what it is. So I'm just going to do that.

[0:23:40] Kris Jones: And you just saved yourself probably a year of your life not having to explain what it is because the name spells it out there for people. So you've really got 5 seconds in that upper area to communicate what you do and who you do it for. And if you can't clearly communicate that, a lot of people will leave the website because they're like, this is going to be too much work. Everyone's kind of overwhelmed with information anyway, so you just want to keep it stupid simple. Clear over clever. Every day, clear over clever.

[0:24:15] Natalie Jennings: That's the best.

[0:24:18] Kris Jones: Everyone wants to be clever, but really no, I know. I like to be clever, too, but clear wins every time. And then you want to follow that up with a few bullets about, like, you might say, are you struggling with? And then three bullets that are really the words that your clients tell you. And in their language, what are they struggling with? They're stressed out about their big day. So many details, all the things. So you want to do three to five bullets of that problem, and then you want to paint a picture of what success looks like for them. What is that day? They're going to fully engage in your special day because you won't have to worry about a thing. Like, what is their life really going to look like? Because they've hired you. And then you want to introduce yourself as the guide and position your services as the solution to that problem.

[0:25:18] Natalie Jennings: Beautiful. It's so funny, though, because it's simple yet, and especially with photographers, a lot of this gets overlooked. And fair enough, if you are a talented photographer or even competent, your images can sell someone. I mean, if they're just like, I like that, that's what I want. But it's a very saturated industry. So to be able to just be clear and not clever, be able to communicate your value, all of that kind of stuff is super helpful.

[0:25:45] Kris Jones: It is simple, it truly is. But there is a thing called the bottle effect, which it just means that when we're too close to our own business, it's like trying to read the label of the bottle from inside the bottle. The label cannot be read. And this is true for every business owner. When we are the business, we are just so close to it, we can't get the perspective we need. And I work with people who are authors, who are writers as a profession, but they're again struggling with this. It's not about if you're a good writer or not. The challenge is because you're just so close to your own self and your own business that it's really hard to write about it, which is why I do the work that I do. It's just to create that perspective, that fresh eyes on you and your business and the perspective that is really critical to tell a compelling story.

[0:26:43] Natalie Jennings: Yeah. In college, I had a creative writing minor and was really interested in all sorts of books on writing and stuff. And Stephen King, his own writing book, which is amazing, even if you're not a writer, he always talks about killing your darlings when you have this loving relationship with your favorite things you've come up with, and then someone else looks at it and they're like, that. I don't get it. Because you have kind of an entire narrative and experience in your own head kind of attached to this thing that no one else can see. So anything that you do creatively, if you can walk away from it and come back to it, I think same with your business. Maybe just don't look at your website for a month and then come back to it and be like, oh, that is not making any sense.

[0:27:32] Kris Jones: Right? And the other thing to keep in mind, I think what you mentioned earlier was just put it in front of somebody who has no idea who you are or what you do, like to a coffee shop and be like, can I buy you a coffee? If you look at my website, you can get really valuable information that way. And the other thing that I like people to know, because I think it lets people off the hook with the pressure to write, is that people actually don't read websites anymore. They scan them. So when you have a long paragraph of copy, it will not get read. People do not read websites anymore. They scan them. So you want to make sure your headlines are doing the heavy lifting for you. You want to make sure they're intentional, not like about me. You want to really have those headlines be working for you. And then instead of long paragraph of copy, you want maybe one or two or three sentences at the most.

[0:28:28] Natalie Jennings: Beautiful. Well, I think that gives people a lot to think about. And Donald Miller's book is highly recommended, so check that out too. But you really covered the basics. It's like that's it everyone. But we still need you because sometimes it's just too difficult to do it on our own. So if you're feeling really stuck and you're listening with all this stuff, obviously check out all of Chris's stuff too, because we have that on the show notes. In the show notes. I don't know what I'm talking about. Where can people find you? Where's your best favorite place for people to find you?

[0:29:01] Kris Jones: If you want to work with me or you want to take advantage of my free offerings, you can go to Reddoordesigns.com. That's red. R-E-D-O-O-R. Designs. Plural designs.com. And you can find everything there. You can also check out my main offering, which is copy that sells website copy that sells in 2.5 hours flat. So if you're ready to check off website copy off your list, you and I can get it done together in two and a half hours and it'll be done forever. And then your website will become your most powerful sales tool.

[0:29:43] Natalie Jennings: That's brilliant. The quick turnaround, I think, is really incredible and what people want.

[0:29:49] Kris Jones: Yeah, I mean, when you own your own business, like you're wearing all the hats, there's not a lot of free time and you don't have time to, number one, write it yourself or hire a copywriter and spend a month going back and forth. Doing edits, and that's why it's a collaborative process. We literally do it together.

[0:30:09] Natalie Jennings: Very cool. Well, if that speaks to you, please check out Chris's stuff and all of that's linked in the show notes. I just wanted to sort of wrap up with one thing that really I try to ask my guest, like, what is a quote or an idea or something that you turn to that just really helps you? It doesn't even have to be related to business. It can just be like, I say this every morning or whatever.

[0:30:32] Kris Jones: Yeah, what a great question. I think that something that helps me a lot is just asking myself the question, how can I make this easier? And whatever I'm doing, how can I make it easier? And I find that I can complicate things just like I think humans we all do, and especially if we want to put ourselves out there and in really kind of not a perfect way, but just like, I expect a lot out of the work that I do. And so it's a fine balance between perfectionism and just doing your best. But I find that that question helps me just continue to keep things really simple.

[0:31:22] Natalie Jennings: I love that. It actually just made me relax when you said it. I was like, how can I make it easier?

[0:31:28] Kris Jones: Yeah, I can record a meditation for that.

[0:31:33] Natalie Jennings: Please do and share it with me. But I think that that's super valuable. And all of this was fantastic. I know it's a baseline sort of place to start for people, but I really think for photographers, this is going to be super useful. So thank you, Chris, so much. And we can do this again, maybe dig in a little deeper on some of this stuff another time. But I really appreciate you coming on the show.

[0:31:56] Kris Jones: Yeah, I'd really love to. I think we should definitely do that.

[0:31:59] Natalie Jennings: Sounds good.